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Raised On Riots
06-22-2009, 03:40 PM
Mark it down: Chiefs buck trend, show yen to lose pounds

Orlin Wagner / Associated PressNew Chiefs Coach Todd Haley stretches as he puts rookies through their paces during a recent workout.

After last season's 2-14 finish, the team has nothing to lose -- except weight. New Coach Todd Haley has put a high priority on conditioning, and he's getting results.
Sam Farmer
June 21, 2009
The Kansas City Chiefs just might be the biggest losers in the NFL.

And that's good news.

To be specific, the Chiefs have lost a combined 340 pounds this year -- and not, say, by cutting some rotund defensive tackle. They lost the weight through hard work, something apparently in short supply when the team went 2-14 last season.

"We were out of shape and not really strong," said new Coach Todd Haley, who has put a premium on his players dropping some pounds. "I talked to our strength coach at Arizona [where Haley was offensive coordinator last season] and he said if you're a highly efficient team that's working, you lose about 120 to 150 pounds in the off-season."

The Chiefs face more than their share of hurdles. With a defense that produced an NFL-record-low 10 sacks last season, and an offense in transition -- and missing All-Pro tight end Tony Gonzalez -- Kansas City would do well to win six games this season.

But the way Haley sees it, getting in shape was priority No. 1. To that end, he instituted mandatory weigh-ins at the beginning and end of each week, making players who were too heavy on Fridays do extra running. He sat in the weight room every day and watched the workouts, and had his coaches monitor things when he couldn't. (It will be interesting to see how players ultimately react to that, seeing as they often judge coaches by whether they "treat us like men.")

Regardless, Haley identified the problem and set out to fix it. In the process, he shed some serious pounds himself, going from 217 to 192.

"The players understood that to be around, we weren't going to have a fat team," he said in a telephone interview. "And if you were fat, we'd probably just move on at some point as soon as we could."

The approach wasn't always subtle. Take the case of tackle Branden Albert, who was selected 15th in the 2008 draft. He went from chiseled to chunky last season, winding up at least 30 pounds heavier than when the Chiefs drafted him from Virginia.

Chiefs General Manager Scott Pioli found Albert's picture from the scouting combine, when the player was a relatively svelte 309 pounds, and taped it to his locker. The inspirational needling did the trick.

"The guy was 303 yesterday," Haley said. "He's on an eating plan and carries his meal around in a Tupperware. He's lifting, and he's so much stronger. He's almost got abs coming through."

Albert, who Haley said "looked like a mess" when he started the program, passed all his rigorous conditioning tests last week.

"It's just a huge transformation," Haley said. "He's put himself into a position to compete and potentially be great."

Anger management

Haley isn't always a hothead. But he plays one on TV.

One of the enduring images from the NFC championship game was of Haley calling a string of excellent plays against Philadelphia while angrily arguing with receiver Anquan Boldin, who pulled off his helmet and was briefly restrained by teammates.

"That changed everything for me," Haley said. "I couldn't go anywhere in Phoenix after that. I used to be able to hide against the wall, but then everybody knew me all of a sudden."

He doesn't mind players thinking he could blow a gasket at any moment, whether it's true or not.

"You'd much rather have that than to be glad-handing and patting somebody on the butt; you don't want that as your reputation," he said. "I'm going to be about pushing you hard and not pulling any punches."

And, hey, Haley made the right calls -- against a Philadelphia defense designed by the outstanding Jim Johnson, no less -- and the Cardinals wound up winning.

"Here I'm trying to call plays to win a championship and I've got somebody yapping behind me," ROFLHaley recalled. "It took us to the Super Bowl, and then all of a sudden it became the perception of, 'What's this player doing? Is he an idiot? This coach is trying to call plays.' "



Thank God we got something out of this off season besides a shit draft.

Haley is the "pick" that matters.

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 03:42 PM
I really don't get why people say we had a shit draft before the players have even taken a snap. Give it a couple 3 years then come back and say it was shit.

Raised On Riots
06-22-2009, 03:44 PM
I really don't get why people say we had a shit draft before the players have even taken a snap. Give it a couple 3 years then come back and say it was shit.

ROFL How did I know that my comments and not the article would get first billing in any response?

Jesus, some of you people try too hard.

KcFanInGA
06-22-2009, 03:47 PM
Totally agree RoR. I am glad to have someone who is not a knucklehead running the show.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 03:49 PM
Trotting out numbers about weight loss is pretty much wasted breath, IMO.

We're going to be in great shape and outwork everyone, right? I'm ready for my varsity football t-shirt now. Every single HS coach in this country says the same thing.

Pestilence
06-22-2009, 03:50 PM
"Chiefs General Manager Scott Pioli found Albert's picture from the scouting combine, when the player was a relatively svelte 309 pounds, and taped it to his locker. The inspirational needling did the trick."

That's what I like to hear. Pioli is staying involved in everything that goes on in the locker room.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 03:52 PM
The Royals have a manager, Herm Hillman, who preaches "fundamentals." And the team sucks shit.

Talent wins. Much of the rest is nothing but artifice.

Raised On Riots
06-22-2009, 03:52 PM
Trotting out numbers about weight loss is pretty much wasted breath, IMO.

We're going to be in great shape and outwork everyone, right? I'm ready for my varsity football t-shirt now. Every single HS coach in this country says the same thing.

Considering that they doubled the league average in OTA weight loss, I'd say it's a pretty substantial point.

It's not everything of course, but it IS something.

FAX
06-22-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm not convinced that our draft was all that bad. I don't think it was all that great, but I wouldn't categorize it as sh*t, necessarily. Vomit, maybe. Or some of that disturbing, greasy, bacteria-laden, vaginal discharge you read about in suspense novels where the girl is killed by a disturbing, greasy, bacteria-laden serial rapist and murderer who sends letters containing clues to the media in order to taunt the police detectives and get his name in the newspapers.

FAX

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 03:54 PM
ROFL How did I know that my comments and not the article would get first billing in any response?

Jesus, some of you people try too hard.

Probably because I'm at work and thought that'd be a few comments and not an article, so I decided to read it after work. I did however read your comments and felt like saying we don't know if the draft was shit yet.

Raised On Riots
06-22-2009, 03:55 PM
I'm not convinced that our draft was all that bad. I don't think it was all that great, but I wouldn't categorize it as sh*t, necessarily. Vomit, maybe. Or some of that disturbing, greasy, bacteria-laden, vaginal discharge you read about in suspense novels where the girl is killed by a disturbing, greasy, bacteria-laden serial rapist and murderer who sends letters containing clues to the media in order to taunt the police detectives and get his name in the newspapers.

FAX

I agree with my nemesis.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 03:55 PM
Considering that they doubled the league average in OTA weight loss, I'd say it's a pretty substantial point.

It's not everything of course, but it IS something.

I don't think it means anything.

The roster is bereft of talent, so how surprising is it that a fair number of these guys are fat turds? My guess is that a more talented roster would have less "fat" to trim.

CoMoChief
06-22-2009, 03:56 PM
I dont believe in making chicken salad out of chicken shit. Because the end result will be a pile of chicken shit.

This team needs more talent if its going to succeed. All the good teams in the NFL have an incredible amount of talent. WAAAAY more than KC has.

Silock
06-22-2009, 03:56 PM
The Royals have a manager, Herm Hillman, who preaches "fundamentals." And the team sucks shit.

Talent wins. Much of the rest is nothing but artifice.

There's a difference between preaching fundamentals and actually teaching and executing it. The only talent you need is the ability for most of the team not to fuck things up, with a handful of guys with above and beyond talent. Obviously, it must scale to the level at which one is competing.

InChiefsHell
06-22-2009, 03:56 PM
I've heard this 340lbs number batted around for the last week. Is that an inordinate amount of weight to lose, or is it par for the course but the CHiefs are trying to make a big deal out of it? In other words, we can't be the only team in the NFL that has fat guys on it at the beginning of the OTA's...

KCUnited
06-22-2009, 03:58 PM
We're the Biggest Losers before the season even begins.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 03:59 PM
There's a difference between preaching fundamentals and actually teaching and executing it. The only talent you need is the ability for most of the team not to **** things up, with a handful of guys with above and beyond talent. Obviously, it must scale to the level at which one is competing.

You don't teach fundamentals at the professional level.

My point is that talk about fundamentals or weight loss, etc. is banter for teams who haven't won shit and will likely suck.

Raised On Riots
06-22-2009, 04:00 PM
I don't think it means anything.

The roster is bereft of talent, so how surprising is it that a fair number of these guys are fat turds? My guess is that a more talented roster would have less "fat" to trim.

As far as the conditioning goes, what do you expect from a team full of players who spent 1 to 3 years under the auspices of Herman Fucking Edwards?

FAX
06-22-2009, 04:00 PM
The Royals have a manager, Herm Hillman, who preaches "fundamentals." And the team sucks shit.

Talent wins. Much of the rest is nothing but artifice.

As you are one of the top, all-time posters in the history of ChiefsPlanet and an individual with both proven and extraordinary intelligence and wisdom, I cannot bring myself to disagree with you, Mr. DeezNutz.

Talent wins, to be sure. When you pit one talented peep against a non-talented peep, the talented peep wins almost every time unless the non-talented peep is cheating or holding the talented peep's wife hostage while promising to force her to eat three-day-old broccoli casserole if the talented peep doesn't lose.

However, the Chiefs seemed to fade in the late going during most games last year ... at least that's how it seemed to me. We didn't look sharp in the 4th quarter. Not at all. It's very possible that some of that had to do with conditioning.

FAX

Buehler445
06-22-2009, 04:00 PM
I've heard this 340lbs number batted around for the last week. Is that an inordinate amount of weight to lose, or is it par for the course but the CHiefs are trying to make a big deal out of it? In other words, we can't be the only team in the NFL that has fat guys on it at the beginning of the OTA's...

I think there's 85 or so people on the roster.

340/85=4

I'm not horridly impressed.
Posted via Mobile Device

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:02 PM
As far as the conditioning goes, what do you expect from a team full of players who spent 1 to 3 years under the auspices of Herman ****ing Edwards?

Nothing.

You think the Steelers are sitting around counting the number of lbs lost and then publicly announcing it? It's almost laughable.

tomahawk kid
06-22-2009, 04:03 PM
Isn't the S&C Coach in Arizona the "Get your stinkin' mind right" bench press coach from the NFL Combine.

CoMoChief
06-22-2009, 04:03 PM
Trotting out numbers about weight loss is pretty much wasted breath, IMO.

We're going to be in great shape and outwork everyone, right? I'm ready for my varsity football t-shirt now. Every single HS coach in this country says the same thing.

Yeah, then take a look at how many games we've lost in the 4th qtr

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:04 PM
However, the Chiefs seemed to fade in the late going during most games last year ... at least that's how it seemed to me. We didn't look sharp in the 4th quarter. Not at all. It's very possible that some of that had to do with conditioning.

FAX

Perhaps, but I doubt it.

For example: you can run all the wind sprints you want, but if you don't have playmakers on defense, players who can get you off the field, you're going to be tired in the 4th, regardless of training.

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 04:08 PM
Yeah, then take a look at how many games we've lost in the 4th qtr

This and the injury bug could be a direct result from Hermie's lack of adequate conditioning

Raised On Riots
06-22-2009, 04:10 PM
Nothing.

You think the Steelers are sitting around counting the number of lbs lost and then publicly announcing it? It's almost laughable.

I think the Steelers have a defense and a genuine Qu-

Aw, fuck it.:doh!:

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:10 PM
This and the injury bug could be a direct result from Hermie's lack of adequate conditioning

I'd say that conditioning was a direct result of Croyle and Huard going down. It had nothing to do with the former being made of glass and the latter repeatedly stabbing himself with his dildo to the point of exhaustion.

If Herm had just made them do that extra rep and shed that extra pound! :D

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:11 PM
I think the Steelers have a defense and a genuine Qu-

Aw, **** it.:doh!:

Exactly.

This shit is borderline embarrassing.

Haley wants to talk about the benefits of conditioning? Great. I'm all for it. Who wouldn't be? Trotting out an artificial number to praise the amount of pounds lost makes me cringe.

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 04:11 PM
I'd say that conditioning was a direct result of Croyle and Huard going down. It had nothing to do with the former being made of glass and the latter repeatedly stabbing himself with his dildo to the point of exhaustion.

If Herm had just made them do that extra rep and shed that extra pound! :D

Those weren't the only guys getting hurt every week. Everywhere Herm went injuries were sure to follow. I wouldn't want to be in the studio with him.

Rausch
06-22-2009, 04:13 PM
Nothing.

You think the Steelers are sitting around counting the number of lbs lost and then publicly announcing it? It's almost laughable.

The Steelers don't have to worry about fat and lazy players.

They don't draft them...

RustShack
06-22-2009, 04:14 PM
Exactly.

This shit is borderline embarrassing.

Haley wants to talk about the benefits of conditioning? Great. I'm all for it. Who wouldn't be? Trotting out an artificial number to praise the amount of pounds lost makes me cringe.

The average team loses 140 a year, not 340.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:14 PM
Those weren't the only guys getting hurt every week. Everywhere Herm went injuries were sure to follow. I wouldn't want to be in the studio with him.

With particular emphasis on injuries to quarterbacks, made famous in NY.

Get a talented O-line and QBs tend to survive at a higher rate. Don't start a quitter like Huard, etc., etc.

Edit: Just back from the can. 1.7 lbs lighter.

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 04:14 PM
The average team loses 140 a year, not 340.

Thats what I heard, of course Haley said it.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:15 PM
The average team loses 140 a year, not 340.

Cool.

I guess we're looking at, what, 13-3? 14-2?

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 04:16 PM
Cool.

I guess we're looking at, what, 13-3? 14-2?

We are still going to suck, but the difference is now the players will work harder and still suck.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:17 PM
We are still going to suck, but the difference is now the players will work harder and still suck.

ROFL

I feel much better now. Promise me that Haley will yell?

KCtotheSB
06-22-2009, 04:18 PM
As far as the draft picks are concerned, I'm not going to "grade" them or give you a hard line on whether they'll be great or suck ass. Last year when it looked like we cleaned house and I was SURE we'd have a real rookie sensation, nobody really came to the forefront (minus Flowers, perhaps). At the very least, I'd like to finally see a Chiefs rookie who comes in his first year and performs at a high level game in-game out and is a true gamechanger. Besides, I don't believe you can adequately "grade" or evaluate a draft until 3-4 years have passed. That's why the Draft always pisses me off. Idiots flying off the handle after every pick.

As for Haley and the weight loss, hey.....it's good news. Of course, it's nothing that will make Chief fans swoon and dream of the Lombardi Trophy. However, it's nice to see Haley's whipping these lardbutts into shape and changing the attitude from a "group hug" Herm Edwards environ to a "do it this way or GTFO" setting. The Chiefs need to be babysat and whipped into shape. No more luvy-dubby bullshit.....kudos to Haley thus far.

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 04:19 PM
ROFL

I feel much better now. Promise me that Haley will yell?

It's a promise!

Kyle DeLexus
06-22-2009, 04:20 PM
As far as the draft picks are concerned, I'm not going to "grade" them or give you a hard line on whether they'll be great or suck ass. Last year when it looked like we cleaned house and I was SURE we'd have a real rookie sensation, nobody really came to the forefront (minus Flowers, perhaps). At the very least, I'd like to finally see a Chiefs rookie who comes in his first year and performs at a high level game in-game out and is a true gamechanger. Besides, I don't believe you can adequately "grade" or evaluate a draft until 3-4 years have passed. That's why the Draft always pisses me off. Idiots flying off the handle after every pick.

As for Haley and the weight loss, hey.....it's good news. Of course, it's nothing that will make Chief fans swoon and dream of the Lombardi Trophy. However, it's nice to see Haley's whipping these lardbutts into shape and changing the attitude from a "group hug" Herm Edwards environ to a "do it this way or GTFO" setting. The Chiefs need to be babysat and whipped into shape. No more luvy-dubby bullshit.....kudos to Haley thus far.

I'm Kyle DeLexus and I support this post.

Raised On Riots
06-22-2009, 04:21 PM
Cool.

I guess we're looking at, what, 13-3? 14-2?

http://www.sondrak.com/archive/skpics2/cuban_raft.jpg

Just Passin' By
06-22-2009, 04:34 PM
You don't teach fundamentals at the professional level.

My point is that talk about fundamentals or weight loss, etc. is banter for teams who haven't won shit and will likely suck.

Q: Last training camp, you talked about how fundamentals were huge for you guys. Is communication the same type of thing this year as fundamentals were last year?

BB: They're neck and neck. They're both really important and they're big. Communication was a big point of emphasis for us last year, which is part of the fundamentals and vice versa. We talk about those everyday, more than everyday.

Q: Does it have something to do with bringing in new guys?

BB: No, it's just making sure everybody that's involved in the play sees the play the same way, whether it's the offensive line seeing the front the same, or a blocker and a runner seeing the defender the same, knowing where the ball is going to go, or a receiver and a quarterback or two defensive backs or defensive back and a linebacker covering a pattern, just so we see it. Sometimes we can communicate and sometimes we just have to see it the same way and recognize it the same. So it's a different type of communication, there's hand signals and then there is just the visual recognition. There's an element of communication in that too.

Q: Is it important to get a lot of that work done in the offseason program and the OTA's?

BB: Sure. Yes. That's part of the teaching and that's definitely a time to get it started, but it happens so much faster in training camp and, as you know, in the passing and in the spring camps, there's less emphasis in the running game because of the contact and that's a major point of emphasis now. A lot of our run calls, our blocking calls on the line of scrimmage for the offense and defensive stunts or alignments by the offensive formation, those kinds of run communications, run force, those are much more of an issue now than they were in the spring.

http://www.patriots.com/mediacenter/index.cfm?ac=VideoNewsdetail&pid=26522&pcid=82

If I'm misunderstanding you, I apologize, but teams definitely do work on fundamentals even at the professional level.

Chaunceythe3rd
06-22-2009, 04:38 PM
Haley is just putting into practice what he learned with the Cardinals. Whisenhunt brought in John Lott as strength and conditioning coach and most of the players played lighter than the previous year. Seemed to help with very few injuries and stamina at the end of the season for their remarkable playoff run.

We just have to watch out for Pendergast going into a prevent defense 50%of the plays. It didn't work for the Cards but they had the offensive firepower to score points to offset Clancy's horrid defensive schemes. No amount of weight loss will make up for bad coaching.

Reerun_KC
06-22-2009, 04:40 PM
Haley is just putting into practice what he learned with the Cardinals. Whisenhunt brought in John Lott as strength and conditioning coach and most of the players played lighter than the previous year. Seemed to help with very few injuries and stamina at the end of the season for their remarkable playoff run.

We just have to watch out for Pendergast going into a prevent defense 50%of the plays. It didn't work for the Cards but they had the offensive firepower to score points to offset Clancy's horrid defensive schemes. No amount of weight loss will make up for bad coaching.


The very reason the Chiefs will still be bottom feeders...

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 04:45 PM
If I'm misunderstanding you, I apologize, but teams definitely do work on fundamentals even at the professional level.

Yes, you're misunderstanding me.

The baseball analogy isn't 1:1, but the larger point is that professional players, generally speaking, have to have a decent/solid fundamental core to get to that level. Doesn't mean that you don't practice fundamentals, but you're not going to be too successful "teaching" it. Refining is the more applicable term.

LaChapelle
06-22-2009, 05:08 PM
The honeymoon should be winding down soon.

Silock
06-22-2009, 09:11 PM
You don't teach fundamentals at the professional level.

My point is that talk about fundamentals or weight loss, etc. is banter for teams who haven't won shit and will likely suck.

It's not necessarily about TEACHING the fundamentals as it is making sure everyone is executing them correctly. Sorry, but everyone is susceptible to getting away from the fundamentals in any sport. If that weren't true, you wouldn't need position coaches. MLB teams wouldn't need hitting coaches.

DeezNutz
06-22-2009, 10:53 PM
It's not necessarily about TEACHING the fundamentals as it is making sure everyone is executing them correctly. Sorry, but everyone is susceptible to getting away from the fundamentals in any sport. If that weren't true, you wouldn't need position coaches. MLB teams wouldn't need hitting coaches.

Right. Thus my use of "refining" in a subsequent post.

Silock
06-22-2009, 11:26 PM
Right. Thus my use of "refining" in a subsequent post.

Yeah, I started my reply before you had posted that, but after you finished yours.

BarrySPAMAID
06-22-2009, 11:33 PM
I'd like to chime in here and say that I am happy with the draft that Scott Pioli, Todd Haley and Staff had. I knew they were going to draft Tyson Jackosn before I went to the draft party. I was sitting up front, and right before Roger called his name, I looked at Soren Petro, and Mitch Holthus, and said, "TYSON JACKSON" before Rogers voice started. I was really happy with the decision that Scott Pioli made to draft Tyson Jackson as well in the four hole. People can be unhappy all they want, and question them all they want if that makes them feel better. The bottom line is that I trust Scott Pioli right now with this franchise. Clark Hunt had a very good understanding of the state of this franchise when he released Herman ****ing Edwards. He went out, and got probably one of the best candidates Chief fans could ask for. A guy that has more than one ring on his finger.

This is another reason why I feel good about Matt Cassel. Again, people want to play the " he hasn't proved anything" card, and I find that SO EASY to do. Scott Pioli had a lot of brass to come in here, and make the deal for Cassel with the 2nd round pick, along with Vrabel That deal was historic. A deal that started being made week one of the 2008 season as far as I'm concerned. I knew he would bring Cassel in if Clark would just hire him, and he did. Cassel still won 11 games last year. No wide receiver is going to change my opinion the matter either. He still had to make the throws. Try all you want not to believe. Well, guess what? Hope is all we have anymore folks. Why cash it in so early? It makes no sense.

There is a timebomb waiting to explode. There is a fan inside of ALL OF YOU that is waiting for the magic to begin. The time is close. The time is now. This football team will be the Cinderella story of the NFL in 2009 IF THESE PLAYERS CAN COME TOGETHER IN CAMP. Im tired of having of the argument about talent. I SEE PLENTY of talent. I'm tired of worrying about our new quarterback. He's better than either of the guys we have now, you know it.

THIS.....IS YOUR TEAM.

Okay, I admit, I just watched Remember the Titans with my son.

NOW GO CHIEFS!!!!

The Bad Guy
06-22-2009, 11:35 PM
Shocker, Mr. Koolaid is on board with every decision.

bdeg
06-22-2009, 11:40 PM
Deez, I think the factor you may not be appreciating is what a lackadaisical coach Herm was. Herm was known league-wide for being a coach that didn't practice hard(or smart for that matter). It may not generally have a big impact, but these players are really seeing both ends of the spectrum. For rookies and young players especially, the majority don't work any harder than they have to. But it's not all about conditioning, I think Haley can get them to work on what they need to work on more efficiently than Herm, but that's just the impression I get.

Judging by Herm's half-time adjustments of the past few years I don't think it would take a lot.

FAX
06-22-2009, 11:52 PM
It is said that Vince Lombardi focused on fundamentals over the entire course of his head coaching career. He believed that it was possible to run the same offensive play on every snap and win ... if you could execute the fundamentals better than the other 11 guys on the field. There is wisdom in that approach. Guys like Tony Gonzalez don't catch extra balls after practice for their health. They do it to improve.

Now ... it's silly to think that professional football players are unaware of the fundamentals of football. Of course they are. Most of them have been blocking and tackling and throwing and catching footballs since they were in elementary school. Therefore, it's fair to say that no professional football coach is going to even attempt to "introduce" the fundamentals to their squad. Not Lombardi. Not anybody. That would be ridiculous. Instead, they are going to help their players improve upon those fundamentals just as Mr. DeezNutz has stated.

However, the Chiefs have problems. We have problems tackling runners. We have problems holding blocks. We have problems with pass protection footwork. We have problems catching the football. In other words, we have problems with fundamentals.

I would argue that part of that problem has to do with conditioning. Fatigue and ouchies can interfere with a player's execution of even the most basic play.

So, since we can't win until we get better as a team and since we can't get better as a team unless or until we master the fundamentals and since we can't master the fundamentals unless or until we are in condition, if we want to win, we have to begin at the beginning. And, if we're lucky, Haley realizes that and is building this team from the ground up ... starting with ensuring that every player is in the best possible condition so as to forestall fatigue and minimize ouchies.

That, the fact that the press has absolutely nothing else to run with, and the current regime's efforts to highlight Herm's unfathomable stupidity and lax approach to both practicing and playing, are the reasons we're treated to news-worthy pap like this.

FAX

veist
06-23-2009, 12:00 AM
Talent wins. Much of the rest is nothing but artifice.

Yep, that's why Ryan Leaf won a string of Super Bowls and Lawrence Phillips broke all kinds of records. Talent is like potential, it doesn't matter how much you have if you aren't using it correctly. Ask the Cowboys how all that talent they have is doing. Its the NFL these guys are all talented. Its all about putting that talent into use effectively, putting those guys in a position to succeed.

Chocolate Hog
06-23-2009, 01:43 AM
If it were all about talent the Chargers and Cowboys would have won super bowls. The team is working hard thats the first step towards a championship.

FAX
06-23-2009, 02:06 AM
It's like potatoes.

By itself, a potato is just a big, ugly tuber. It's really just a giant, fat lump of starch covered with skin and eyes. Eyes!! And they're always looking at you, man!! Ever had a staredown with a potato? Well, you'll lose, man. Guaranteed. I don't care how much acid you've dropped, potatoes always win a staredown!!!! Every friggin' time!@!!

But I digress.

As I was saying, the potato is just this big thing buried in the ground under a plant. Until, one day, that potato is extracted from the Earth by a farmer man. When that happens, you can skin it, boil it, add some butter and salt and pepper to it, and mash that baby up. When you do that, it's mashed potato and it's really good with meatloaf and a cold beer.

Similarly, the NFL is comprised of lots of little potato people. Some of these potato people will get mashed and some will get roasted and some will get hunked up into long rectangles, deep fried, and served with a burger. But some of these potato people will just stay in the ground and rot. And when that happens, my friends, that potato person has not reached his potential. Why? Because nobody cared enough about that potato person to help him make something out of himself. That's why.

And that's the reason conditioning and weight loss is so vital to our potatoes. Haley doesn't want our potatoes to rot in the dirt and stare at dark dirt forever with their bunch of eyes right there in the dirt. No. He's going to reach down and pull our potato people out of that dirt and mash our potato people up and serve 'em with a nice roast beef and some braised brown sugar carrots. No, my friends, our diet is over. Haley's in the kitchen and it's almost dinner time in Chiefs Nation. Bon Appétit.

FAX

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 03:45 AM
I'd like to chime in here and say that I am happy with the draft that Scott Pioli, Todd Haley and Staff had. I knew they were going to draft Tyson Jackosn before I went to the draft party. I was sitting up front, and right before Roger called his name, I looked at Soren Petro, and Mitch Holthus, and said, "TYSON JACKSON" before Rogers voice started.

PRAISE OOGA-BOOGA; I'VE FOUND MY NEW STOCK BROKER!!!!

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 03:46 AM
"THE NEW PHONE BOOK IS HERE"!

"THE NEW PHONE BOOK IS HERE"!:rolleyes:

InChiefsHell
06-23-2009, 06:54 AM
FAX - The REASON to read Chiefs Planet...

BarrySPAMAID
06-23-2009, 08:11 AM
Shocker, Mr. Koolaid is on board with every decision.

I wouldn't say that. I was NOT happy with the dismissal of Eric Price, Gunther Cunningham, and a few of the players that are not around either.

InChiefsHell
06-23-2009, 08:12 AM
I wouldn't say that. I was NOT happy with the dismissal of Eric Price, Gunther Cunningham, and a few of the players that are not around either.

Jeez dude, I was almost with you until that part...:shake:

Direckshun
06-23-2009, 08:38 AM
Some people will criticize anything.

Mr. Arrowhead
06-23-2009, 08:51 AM
I wouldn't say that. I was NOT happy with the dismissal of Eric Price, Gunther Cunningham, and a few of the players that are not around either.
LMAO, and what in the last couple years did you see in Gunther.

Slainte
06-23-2009, 08:51 AM
I wouldn't say that. I was NOT happy with the dismissal of ...Gunther Cunningham...

Before, I thought of you as a somewhat silly, overly-optimistic homer. Now I know you're clinically insane.

KCtotheSB
06-23-2009, 10:09 AM
I wouldn't say that. I was NOT happy with the dismissal of Eric Price, Gunther Cunningham, and a few of the players that are not around either.

Yeah, we probably should have given him another 3-4 years to fuck up our defense REAL good.

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 10:34 AM
Before, I thought of you as a somewhat silly, overly-optimistic homer. Now I know you're clinically insane.

ROFL

Coogs
06-23-2009, 10:52 AM
LMAO, and what in the last couple years did you see in Gunther.

The Gun homers buy into every single excuse Gun has ever made for the defenses failure. And you will waste your time trying to convince them of anything else. They hang on to those four plays against the Bills and the 2nd half non-scoring streak back from the mid-1990's convinced that Gun was the sole reason for that success. And he may have helped with that success, but it was 15 seasons ago. If you give him credit for that succcess 15 seasons ago, you must also give him credit for the stuff that has happend since as well.

I'm don't know that much about Pendergast, but I am going to give him the benifit of the doubt for right now. At least he is not Gun. And to me, next to CP leaving, this is the single best move that needed to happen this past off season. Then Herm in 3rd.

Krumrine would have went with them as my 4th choice, but apparently after all of the Pioli/Herm conference before the dismissal of Herm, Pioli got to the real root of our front seven's faults. My guess is it all fell back on CP and Gun.

Time will tell. But be thankful they (CP, Gun, and Herm) are gone, and hope Pioli was correct on Krumrine.

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 10:59 AM
Let's get Homer:

"Krumrie's coaching skills have sucked because of the 4-3. With the 3-4 now in place, he will receive the NFL defensive squad coach of the year award".

Mmm...Homer; it's good for breakfast, lunch AND dinner!

The Bad Guy
06-23-2009, 11:17 AM
I wouldn't say that. I was NOT happy with the dismissal of Eric Price, Gunther Cunningham, and a few of the players that are not around either.

Oh boy.

Yes, let's give Gunther 10 more years so he can continue to suck and blame everyone but himself. He got to chose his own players, run his own system with Vermeil, then basically blamed him for failure. He then blames Herm because he had to run a cover 2, which he signed up to run when Herm was hired. He's a fucking fraud and a half, but yes, continue to be upset about his dismissal.

Eric Price? Really? What did you see from the WRs last year that would indicate that he's any good at his job?

The Bad Guy
06-23-2009, 11:18 AM
Let's get Homer:

"Krumrie's coaching skills have sucked because of the 4-3. With the 3-4 now in place, he will receive the NFL defensive squad coach of the year award".

Mmm...Homer; it's good for breakfast, lunch AND dinner!

The Gunther Cunningham coaching tree of excuses will continue to spin as long as anyone associated with Gunther is on this team.

Gunther was like a role model for a lot on here. He didn't know his ass from first base but he'd pretend like he did. When things don't go right, just blame someone else.

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 11:29 AM
The Gunther Cunningham coaching tree of excuses will continue to spin as long as anyone associated with Gunther is on this team.

Gunther was like a role model for a lot on here. He didn't know his ass from first base but he'd pretend like he did. When things don't go right, just blame someone else.

ROFL

So this begs the question:

Is "TIMMY"! still here because there wasn't time enough to get someone else, or does Haley dig his "Spitting Human Bullhorn"-style?

Or is Haoli scared of him?

Coogs
06-23-2009, 11:44 AM
ROFL

So this begs the question:

Is "TIMMY"! still here because there wasn't time enough to get someone else, or does Haley dig his "Spitting Human Bullhorn"-style?

Or is Haoli scared of him?

My guess is that when Pioli was "interviewing" Herm for the week or so before the dismissal, that the failure of the defense was deemed to be Gun. And not from Herm, but from Pioli.

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 11:49 AM
My guess is that when Pioli was "interviewing" Herm for the week or so before the dismissal, that the failure of the defense was deemed to be Gun. And not from Herm, but from Pioli.

Well, "TIMMY"! had better know this is his last shot. That line needs to show improvement, rooks or no.

Coogs
06-23-2009, 11:53 AM
Well, "TIMMY"! had better know this is his last shot. That line needs to show improvement, rooks or no.

No doubt! Like I said, he would have been the #4 person I would have shown the door. But I trust for now that Pioli was doing his homework very extensively before he started showing folks to the door... including Herm.

wasi
06-23-2009, 02:22 PM
ROFL

So this begs the question:

Is "TIMMY"! still here because there wasn't time enough to get someone else, or does Haley dig his "Spitting Human Bullhorn"-style?

Or is Haoli scared of him?

Krumrie is probably still around because: 1) he seems to have some of the same qualities, ie discipline, hard work, and; 2) he is an ex. player that only started coaching last season and isn't stuck in the ways of his predecessors.

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 02:26 PM
Krumrie is probably still around because: 1) he seems to have some of the same qualities, ie discipline, hard work, and; 2) he is an ex. player that only started coaching last season and isn't stuck in the ways of his predecessors.

He's been coaching with the Chiefs since the 2007 season to my knowledge, and doesn't have much to show for it so far.

RustShack
06-23-2009, 02:37 PM
Krumrie is probably still around because: 1) he seems to have some of the same qualities, ie discipline, hard work, and; 2) he is an ex. player that only started coaching last season and isn't stuck in the ways of his predecessors.

Hes been a Dline coach with the Bengals, Bills, and here...

DeezNutz
06-23-2009, 02:39 PM
Deez, I think the factor you may not be appreciating is what a lackadaisical coach Herm was. Herm was known league-wide for being a coach that didn't practice hard(or smart for that matter). It may not generally have a big impact, but these players are really seeing both ends of the spectrum. For rookies and young players especially, the majority don't work any harder than they have to. But it's not all about conditioning, I think Haley can get them to work on what they need to work on more efficiently than Herm, but that's just the impression I get.

Judging by Herm's half-time adjustments of the past few years I don't think it would take a lot.

Good post.

Yep, that's why Ryan Leaf won a string of Super Bowls and Lawrence Phillips broke all kinds of records. Talent is like potential, it doesn't matter how much you have if you aren't using it correctly. Ask the Cowboys how all that talent they have is doing. Its the NFL these guys are all talented. Its all about putting that talent into use effectively, putting those guys in a position to succeed.

Different grades, though. High-level, low-level, etc. But, whatever.

Of course intangibles are important. Artificial weight loss numbers aren't one of these. But, hey, if Haley feels better to stand up and preach about it, cool.

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 02:45 PM
Hes been a Dline coach with the Bengals, Bills, and here...

...Oakland.:D

wasi
06-23-2009, 03:16 PM
I stand corrected.. had no idea Krumrie has been around coaching that long... now I see why most people are questioning him not being fired.

Well, the only thing I can think of then is there really must not have been anyone better available... sad.

BarrySPAMAID
06-23-2009, 06:09 PM
Yeah, we probably should have given him another 3-4 years to **** up our defense REAL good.
Oh give me a fucking break? Do you seriously think Gun would have ran a COVER TWO? I dont think SO. While Herm was here, Gun was handcuffed. Write that SHIT DOWN. I have this on the HIGHEST authority, and although I wont prove it, you sound like every other bird that sings the same song. Cmon......
I may be overly optimistic but last year we had Herm and a bunch of rookies and young players. They now have at least a year of playing time and experience under their belts. If Haley and staff can whip them into shape, coach them up with the help of a few veterans, I don't see why they can't be at least a 500 team.
See, now this is a post! Way to get excited about your team!! Couldnt agree more. I say the glass is more half full than empty, so I'm with you.
Oh boy.

Yes, let's give Gunther 10 more years so he can continue to suck and blame everyone but himself. He got to chose his own players, run his own system with Vermeil, then basically blamed him for failure. He then blames Herm because he had to run a cover 2, which he signed up to run when Herm was hired. He's a ****ing fraud and a half, but yes, continue to be upset about his dismissal.

Eric Price? Really? What did you see from the WRs last year that would indicate that he's any good at his job?

Ya, because that's what Gun did right? Blame everyone else?:shake: I swear if people just could understand something as SIMPLE as two coaches not seeing eye to eye......

And his dismissal was the "official" story. I know what happened. That's all that matters. Gun was a CHIEF through to the blood. He gave his career to this city, only so some of us "EXPERTS" can throw him under the bus, and feel better about ourselves.

Not here. I am going to miss his pissing, and vinegar. Mark my words, he will do wonders with that Detroit Defense JUST because he will get to do it his way. Just watch.

DeezNutz
06-23-2009, 06:14 PM
Gun has constructed one of the more impressive facades in recent NFL history.

the Talking Can
06-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Oh give me a ****ing break? Do you seriously think Gun would have ran a COVER TWO? I dont think SO. While Herm was here, Gun was handcuffed. Write that SHIT DOWN. I have this on the HIGHEST authority, and although I wont prove it, you sound like every other bird that sings the same song. Cmon......

See, now this is a post! Way to get excited about your team!! Couldnt agree more. I say the glass is more half full than empty, so I'm with you.


Ya, because that's what Gun did right? Blame everyone else?:shake: I swear if people just could understand something as SIMPLE as two coaches not seeing eye to eye......

And his dismissal was the "official" story. I know what happened. That's all that matters. Gun was a CHIEF through to the blood. He gave his career to this city, only so some of us "EXPERTS" can throw him under the bus, and feel better about ourselves.

Not here. I am going to miss his pissing, and vinegar. Mark my words, he will do wonders with that Detroit Defense JUST because he will get to do it his way. Just watch.

Gunther is a fucking clown and a fucking fraud, and fucking joke, and a spineless pussy who always passes the buck for his own incompetence....he, next to carl peterson, is the most responsible for damn near 2 decades of failure...he reeks of failure and infects everyone with it

he's also a litmus test for your sanity....you now are a member of an exclusive club inhabited by nutjob kcjohnny and well no one else...

and you don't know shit about what goes on in arrowhead either...

FAX
06-23-2009, 06:55 PM
Gun is like a potato bug.

FAX

veist
06-23-2009, 07:02 PM
Either Krumrie has some Millen-like blackmail material or Pioli didn't think he was the problem. Why else wouldn't he be out on his ass right now?

Different grades, though. High-level, low-level, etc. But, whatever.

Of course intangibles are important. Artificial weight loss numbers aren't one of these. But, hey, if Haley feels better to stand up and preach about it, cool.

I'm not saying the specific numbers are a big deal--they aren't, imo--, I was just saying it sounds he believes that they weren't in position to succeed with their conditioning. Which would mean regardless of the number of pounds lost or whatever that he is trying to position them to better apply their talent. And that is what we need from him right? That is the part of the equation that he has control over.

RustShack
06-23-2009, 07:20 PM
Guns best year here the second time around was Herms first year. He was terrible when he wasn't handcuffed by Vermiel, he was at his best when his hand was held by Marty.

Raised On Riots
06-23-2009, 08:15 PM
Guns best year here the second time around was Herms first year. He was terrible when he wasn't handcuffed by Vermiel, he was at his best when his hand was held by Marty.

Cowher + Marty = DEFENSE.

TheGuardian
06-23-2009, 10:17 PM
You don't teach fundamentals at the professional level.

OMG yes you fuggin do. Most of the guys that dominate at the college level LACK good fundamentals because they generally got by because of God given ability. What really separates the busts from the pro bowlers/all pro types is that they become masters at the pro level fundamentals.


My point is that talk about fundamentals or weight loss, etc. is banter for teams who haven't won shit and will likely suck.

Every team needs to be in top shape to avoid injuries and to still play at a high level come the fourth quarter. I don't think it's a coincodence that we could never hold a lead in the 4th and that Herm never worked the guys very hard.

So outside of those facts, yeah your post is spot on.

DeezNutz
06-23-2009, 10:42 PM
OMG yes you fuggin do. Most of the guys that dominate at the college level LACK good fundamentals because they generally got by because of God given ability. What really separates the busts from the pro bowlers/all pro types is that they become masters at the pro level fundamentals.

Every team needs to be in top shape to avoid injuries and to still play at a high level come the fourth quarter. I don't think it's a coincodence that we could never hold a lead in the 4th and that Herm never worked the guys very hard.

So outside of those facts, yeah your post is spot on.

At some point, I've responded to every single one of these points in this thread and further illuminated my points, so I won't repeat. If you believe that most of the top college players are super raw athletes, I don't know what to tell you because nothing could be further from the truth.

orange
06-23-2009, 10:50 PM
Every team needs to be in top shape to avoid injuries and to still play at a high level come the fourth quarter. I don't think it's a coincodence that we could never hold a lead in the 4th and that Herm never worked the guys very hard.

Haley himself has lost 25 lbs. I guess this fitness fetish wasn't part of Arizona's program last year. But they somehow got to the Super Bowl anyway.

DeezNutz
06-23-2009, 10:53 PM
Haley himself has lost 25 lbs. I guess this fitness fetish wasn't part of Arizona's program last year. But they somehow got to the Super Bowl anyway.

Fear us; we're losing weight.

I'm -3.1 lbs on the day (flexing).

RustShack
06-23-2009, 10:58 PM
OMG yes you fuggin do. Most of the guys that dominate at the college level LACK good fundamentals because they generally got by because of God given ability. What really separates the busts from the pro bowlers/all pro types is that they become masters at the pro level fundamentals.



Every team needs to be in top shape to avoid injuries and to still play at a high level come the fourth quarter. I don't think it's a coincodence that we could never hold a lead in the 4th and that Herm never worked the guys very hard.

So outside of those facts, yeah your post is spot on.

At some point, I've responded to every single one of these points in this thread and further illuminated my points, so I won't repeat. If you believe that most of the top college players are super raw athletes, I don't know what to tell you because nothing could be further from the truth.

I think the truth is in the middle of this. Some athletic freaks can get by without learning proper technique until the Pro level.

FAX
06-23-2009, 11:46 PM
It's like that TV show that Groucho Marx used to have.

On that show, sometimes a contestant would use the secret woid in a sentence which would cause a stuffed duck to come plummeting down from the ceiling on a string with the secret woid on a placard hung around its neck. Of course, the contestant could potentially go through the entire show without using the secret woid because it was, after all, a secret. Nobody knew the secret woid except for Groucho and the guy responsible for preparing the placard and the stuffed duck.

New players come into the league without knowing the secret woid. Unfortunately for them, all the veteran NFL players are Grouchos and they already know the secret woid. So, the new players have to either just accidentally use the secret woid or somebody has to tell them what it is before they go on the show. Well, the Grouchos aren't going to tell them are they? No, no no. So, somebody else has to. And that person is the guy responsible for the stuffed duck.

Haley is responsible for our stuffed duck. That's what he does. But the cool part is that he tells our contestants what the secret woid is so they'll know it and so they can win the extra 500 smackers.

FAX

BarrySPAMAID
06-23-2009, 11:55 PM
LMAO, and what in the last couple years did you see in Gunther.

I didn't get to see much. He was busy coaching the linebackers. Teaching them how to run basic plays at best.

Before, I thought of you as a somewhat silly, overly-optimistic homer. Now I know you're clinically insane.

Sticks and Stones brother. It's cool, I just happened to sit next to wife at the home opener last season. I have alot respect for him, and his family. I will have no part in trash talking a man who loved his Kansas City Chiefs.

Gunther is a ****ing clown and a ****ing fraud, and ****ing joke, and a spineless pussy who always passes the buck for his own incompetence....he, next to carl peterson, is the most responsible for damn near 2 decades of failure...he reeks of failure and infects everyone with it

he's also a litmus test for your sanity....you now are a member of an exclusive club inhabited by nutjob kcjohnny and well no one else...

and you don't know shit about what goes on in arrowhead either...

Ergo, yet another example of a disgruntled fan who thinks its ok to point the finger in the wrong direction when trying to hold someone accountable. Again, Sticks and Stones, I read and process the same information that you do every day. I may see things different, but at least I have a little class.

RustShack
06-24-2009, 01:25 AM
I didn't get to see much. He was busy coaching the linebackers. Teaching them how to run basic plays at best.

Our LB's have always been a weakness and he has stunted DJ's growth tremendously...

milkman
06-24-2009, 08:20 AM
I don't think it means anything.

The roster is bereft of talent, so how surprising is it that a fair number of these guys are fat turds? My guess is that a more talented roster would have less "fat" to trim.

I don't know how much effect getting into shape will have on the won/loss record, but I do know that this team was undisciplined under Herman fucking Edwards.

I also know that Herman fucking Edwards liked guys on the O-Line and D-line to put on weight and be heavier, thinking that it made them stronger and harder to move.

We know he wanted Hali playing in the 280 lb range, and for a guy already lacking speed on the edge, that is absolutely ridiculous.

This team lacks talent, to be sure, but a better conditioned, stronger, quicker player will still perform at a higher level than a fatass.

milkman
06-24-2009, 08:34 AM
You don't teach fundamentals at the professional level.

Why not?

Troy Polomaulo was a big hitter coming out of college, but he wasn't a fundamentaly sound tackler.
He is now.

Most of these guys have been taught the fundamentals, but I think you have to continue to teach it, and to stress the importance.
This is one of the reasons that ****her has never been a good DC.
He placed so much emphasis on taking the ball away that he forgot that the first priority of defense is to make stops.

My point is that talk about fundamentals or weight loss, etc. is banter for teams who haven't won shit and will likely suck.

There is some truth to this, but when you have a suckass team with a new coaching staff, this "banter" could well be the first indication of a change in culture.

milkman
06-24-2009, 08:45 AM
It's like potatoes.

By itself, a potato is just a big, ugly tuber. It's really just a giant, fat lump of starch covered with skin and eyes. Eyes!! And they're always looking at you, man!! Ever had a staredown with a potato? Well, you'll lose, man. Guaranteed. I don't care how much acid you've dropped, potatoes always win a staredown!!!! Every friggin' time!@!!

But I digress.

As I was saying, the potato is just this big thing buried in the ground under a plant. Until, one day, that potato is extracted from the Earth by a farmer man. When that happens, you can skin it, boil it, add some butter and salt and pepper to it, and mash that baby up. When you do that, it's mashed potato and it's really good with meatloaf and a cold beer.

Similarly, the NFL is comprised of lots of little potato people. Some of these potato people will get mashed and some will get roasted and some will get hunked up into long rectangles, deep fried, and served with a burger. But some of these potato people will just stay in the ground and rot. And when that happens, my friends, that potato person has not reached his potential. Why? Because nobody cared enough about that potato person to help him make something out of himself. That's why.

And that's the reason conditioning and weight loss is so vital to our potatoes. Haley doesn't want our potatoes to rot in the dirt and stare at dark dirt forever with their bunch of eyes right there in the dirt. No. He's going to reach down and pull our potato people out of that dirt and mash our potato people up and serve 'em with a nice roast beef and some braised brown sugar carrots. No, my friends, our diet is over. Haley's in the kitchen and it's almost dinner time in Chiefs Nation. Bon Appétit.

FAX

LMAO

Farmer Todd!!!

BarrySPAMAID
06-24-2009, 08:46 AM
Our LB's have always been a weakness and he has stunted DJ's growth tremendously...

I couldn't disagree more. I wonder what Derrick's thoughts are on Gun? Love how everything is Gun's fault. Play a different tune. This is a rerun.

milkman
06-24-2009, 08:49 AM
The Gunther Cunningham coaching tree of excuses will continue to spin as long as anyone associated with Gunther is on this team.

Gunther was like a role model for a lot on here. He didn't know his ass from first base but he'd pretend like he did. When things don't go right, just blame someone else.

****her didn't know his ass from a hat, and he always put his head in his ass and told us how great his hat was.

milkman
06-24-2009, 08:53 AM
Oh give me a ****ing break? Do you seriously think Gun would have ran a COVER TWO? I dont think SO. While Herm was here, Gun was handcuffed. Write that SHIT DOWN. I have this on the HIGHEST authority, and although I wont prove it, you sound like every other bird that sings the same song. Cmon......

See, now this is a post! Way to get excited about your team!! Couldnt agree more. I say the glass is more half full than empty, so I'm with you.


Ya, because that's what Gun did right? Blame everyone else?:shake: I swear if people just could understand something as SIMPLE as two coaches not seeing eye to eye......

And his dismissal was the "official" story. I know what happened. That's all that matters. Gun was a CHIEF through to the blood. He gave his career to this city, only so some of us "EXPERTS" can throw him under the bus, and feel better about ourselves.

Not here. I am going to miss his pissing, and vinegar. Mark my words, he will do wonders with that Detroit Defense JUST because he will get to do it his way. Just watch.

You are a dumbass, Barry.

You keep buying the bullshit that Cunther is selling.
The guy is a fucking idiot, and has no business runningan NFL defense.

Coogs
06-24-2009, 08:57 AM
Ya, because that's what Gun did right? Blame everyone else?:shake: I swear if people just could understand something as SIMPLE as two coaches not seeing eye to eye......


Like I said earlier, CP and Gun were the two biggest reasons for the failure of the team these past few years. To have a HC and a DC who were at an obvious disagreement as to what the philosophy should be reeks of the HC being saddled with the DC by the GM.

And for the DC to stick around with a HC with whom he disagrees with... despite what he said to the media... then throw the HC under the bus on the way out the door... foot shuffling porter all the way. Good riddance.

Coogs
06-24-2009, 09:00 AM
I couldn't disagree more. I wonder what Derrick's thoughts are on Gun? Love how everything is Gun's fault. Play a different tune. This is a rerun.

The Lions bandwagon is probably not full yet if you are looking to purchase a seat o' drinker of the GunsKOOLAID.

The Bad Guy
06-24-2009, 09:04 AM
BarrysKoolaid is the best.

He loves Gunther because Gunther loved the Chiefs. Gunther was one of the MAIN reasons this team sucked so bad. It's OK to have a KCJohnny crush because you met his family. I met him several times as well. Nice guy, shit football coach.

Your problem is that you let your personal feelings get in the way of production. You are a lot like Carl Peterson.

milkman
06-24-2009, 09:05 AM
Like I said earlier, CP and Gun were the two biggest reasons for the failure of the team these past few years. To have a HC and a DC who were at an obvious disagreement as to what the philosophy should be reeks of the HC being saddled with the DC by the GM.

And for the DC to stick around with a HC with whom he disagrees with... despite what he said to the media... then throw the HC under the bus on the way out the door... foot shuffling porter all the way. Good riddance.

Even if the cover two wasn't Cunther's desired defnse, he still has to run it, and has to make sure all the pieces are in the right place, and that they all are performing at their best.

Take a guy like Ron Rivera.

Here's a guy that played in Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, cut his coaching teeth in Jim Johnson's blitzing defense, and ran the cover two with great success in Chicago.

When he and Lovie have a falling out, and he ends up as LB coach in San Diego, and takes over that 34 defense in mid saeson and that defense improves almost instantly as soon as he takes over.

This is guy that understands defense and how to run them.

He doesn't have to have his defense to succeed.

But go ahead, Barry, buy the Cunther Kool-Aid.

I hope your dumb ass drowns in it.

Coogs
06-24-2009, 09:06 AM
Even if the cover two wasn't Cunther's desired defnse, he still has to run it, and has to make sure all the pieces are in the right place, and that they all are performing at their best.

Take a guy like Ron Rivera.

Here's a guy that played in Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, cut his coaching teeth in Jim Johnson's blitzing defense, and ran the cover two with great success in Chicago.

When he and Lovie have a falling out, and he ends up as LB coach in San Diego, and takes over that 34 defense in mid saeson and that defense improves almost instantly as soon as he takes over.

This is guy that understands defense and how to run them.

He doesn't have to have his defense to succeed.

But go ahead, Barry, buy the Cunther Kool-Aid.

I hope your dumb ass drowns in it.

:clap::clap::clap:

The Bad Guy
06-24-2009, 09:11 AM
I couldn't disagree more. I wonder what Derrick's thoughts are on Gun? Love how everything is Gun's fault. Play a different tune. This is a rerun.

God, you are a fucking douche.

So Gunther coaches linebackers. Derrick Johnson REGRESSES every single year he's with Gunther. Gunther can't decide if he's a middle linebacker, sam, or will.

Yet, IT'S NOT GUNTHER'S FAULT?

I don't give a flying fuck what DJ's thoughts on Gun are. You don't need to know his thoughts, you need to watch tape to see his production.

That doesn't lie.

The Bad Guy
06-24-2009, 09:15 AM
Even if the cover two wasn't ****her's desired defnse, he still has to run it, and has to make sure all the pieces are in the right place, and that they all are performing at their best.

Take a guy like Ron Rivera.

Here's a guy that played in Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, cut his coaching teeth in Jim Johnson's blitzing defense, and ran the cover two with great success in Chicago.

When he and Lovie have a falling out, and he ends up as LB coach in San Diego, and takes over that 34 defense in mid saeson and that defense improves almost instantly as soon as he takes over.

This is guy that understands defense and how to run them.

He doesn't have to have his defense to succeed.

But go ahead, Barry, buy the ****her Kool-Aid.

I hope your dumb ass drowns in it.

A fucking men.

Gunther has NEVER ever been able to take anything less than top talent and turn them into something. He had Dale Carter, James Hasty, DT, and Neil Smith to work with. 4 outstanding players for their positions. That's what made Gun look so smart. Any retard with a piece of chalk can tell the corners to play man and unleash both of those players on the QB.

You know who else cares about the Chiefs Barry? Me. I give a shit about the Chiefs. For you to sit here and blow sunshine up my ass about a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 15 years is a fucking joke. When is enough, enough?

I'm tired of hearing how it's not some blowhard's fault when the biggest contribution he's made to this city is yellow glasses and copenhagen tins.

In closing, FUCK OFF.

Raised On Riots
06-24-2009, 09:48 AM
****her didn't know his ass from a hat, and he always put his head in his ass and told us how great his hat was.

ROFL

TheGuardian
06-24-2009, 10:10 AM
At some point, I've responded to every single one of these points in this thread and further illuminated my points, so I won't repeat. If you believe that most of the top college players are super raw athletes, I don't know what to tell you because nothing could be further from the truth.

Nevermind that I have been there. :rolleyes: WTF have you done?

Most of the guys at the college level ARE in fact super raw. They dominated because of athletic ability, and most of them have a very low level of technical fundamentals.

If you missed it, when Vernon Davis was a rook in his first camp with the 9ers the guy didn't even know how to run a dig properly and it took days before he could even do it to a level the coach thought it was ok. Lavar Arrington was maybe one of the most gifted athletes EVER in college football, and Marvin Lewis couldn't stand the guy when he was in Washington because he was basically "dumb" and outside of "go get the football" he couldn't follow simple instructions.

Anyone who thinks that college guys are fundamentally sound players when they reach the pros, is an idiot and has no freaking clue as to what they are talking about and should hire someone to kick them in the junk for stating such ridiculous nonsense.

KCtotheSB
06-24-2009, 11:06 AM
A ****ing men.

Gunther has NEVER ever been able to take anything less than top talent and turn them into something. He had Dale Carter, James Hasty, DT, and Neil Smith to work with. 4 outstanding players for their positions. That's what made Gun look so smart. Any retard with a piece of chalk can tell the corners to play man and unleash both of those players on the QB.

You know who else cares about the Chiefs Barry? Me. I give a shit about the Chiefs. For you to sit here and blow sunshine up my ass about a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 15 years is a ****ing joke. When is enough, enough?

I'm tired of hearing how it's not some blowhard's fault when the biggest contribution he's made to this city is yellow glasses and copenhagen tins.

In closing, **** OFF.

Pretty much this.

We all give a shit about the Chiefs or we wouldn't be here. I can understand Barry trying to lift us up and get excited about this year's team, but if the baby's ugly......damnit, it's ugly. Gunther didn't improve the defense the way most of had hoped he would from the G-Rob debacle. Granted, he was working with a much younger and inexperienced lineup, but it’s his job to field a competent defense that doesn’t produce a sack total a retarded monkey could count to.

If you’re excited that this year’s team will be gee golly great and shit rainbows for 16 weeks, then good for you. However, understand that a lot of us are anticipating another double digit loss season. Does that mean we don’t expect progress to be made? No, we have a new GM, coach, quarterback and a young team that SHOULD get better with experience. Over time, Kansas City hopefully will be a competent football team that can challenge with the elite of the AFC. If the rest of the people here are like me, they’re excited to see this team take a different direction and grow. This fucking football team hasn’t won a playoff game since they beat the goddamn Houston Oilers (the OILERS!!!!!). Its standard procedure for Chiefs fans to expect what the bird left on the post season after season…..and there’s no indication now that the status quo won’t change.

DeezNutz
06-24-2009, 12:43 PM
Nevermind that I have been there. :rolleyes: WTF have you done?

Most of the guys at the college level ARE in fact super raw. They dominated because of athletic ability, and most of them have a very low level of technical fundamentals.

If you missed it, when Vernon Davis was a rook in his first camp with the 9ers the guy didn't even know how to run a dig properly and it took days before he could even do it to a level the coach thought it was ok. Lavar Arrington was maybe one of the most gifted athletes EVER in college football, and Marvin Lewis couldn't stand the guy when he was in Washington because he was basically "dumb" and outside of "go get the football" he couldn't follow simple instructions.

Anyone who thinks that college guys are fundamentally sound players when they reach the pros, is an idiot and has no freaking clue as to what they are talking about and should hire someone to kick them in the junk for stating such ridiculous nonsense.

And are either of these guys fundamentally sound football players today? That's my point. As I've said, it's about refining fundamentals more than anything. Subtle difference, but an important one nonetheless.

Are there freakish athletes who come late to the sport and are exceptions to the rule? Of course. But most NFL players come into the league with a core. They're not untouched lumps of clay.

TheGuardian
06-24-2009, 01:15 PM
And are either of these guys fundamentally sound football players today? That's my point. As I've said, it's about refining fundamentals more than anything. Subtle difference, but an important one nonetheless.

Are there freakish athletes who come late to the sport and are exceptions to the rule? Of course. But most NFL players come into the league with a core. They're not untouched lumps of clay.

This is not what you wrote. You wrote this first.....

You don't teach fundamentals at the professional level.

And this of course, is complete and utter horseshit. Every coach in the NFL teaches fundamentals from day 1 and everyday after. It's not about "refining fundamentals" because a LOT of guys DO NOT have good technique at ALL. I know this from working with them myself. Some guys don't even understand how to properly drop their hips in a backpeddle or keep their bodyweight over their toes when they change positions in a pattern. That's not "refining" that means the guys don't posses a real basic understanding of how to use proper technique. Again, Vernon Davis, a top 10 draft pick, didn't even know how to run a proper dig pattern as a rookie. That's a top 10 draft pick again. They weren't REFINING what he knew, they had to teach it to him as if he were in pop warner. And this is not unusual. Arrington was as raw as a guy that had never played football when he was drafted. He didn't have a clue as how to drop into coverage, how to read angles, how to use his hands. Lewis called him the "most undisciplined football player he ever coached."

And you think that no one is having to teach fundamentals at the pro level? Laughable.

So again, you really just don't know what you're talking about here and it really bugs me when casual fans try to speak as if they know about these things when they don't. Speculate on what you have some knowledge about. Not things you are clueless on.

InChiefsHell
06-24-2009, 02:41 PM
Actually, I recall that last season Herm was talking about how Glenn Dorsey only knew like ONE move, and that was why he was struggling so much. SO yeah, they are constantly teaching, and then refining, fundamentals in the NFL.

BarrySPAMAID
06-24-2009, 03:09 PM
You are a dumbass, Barry.

You keep buying the bullshit that ****her is selling.
The guy is a ****ing idiot, and has no business runningan NFL defense.
I dont keep buying anything he is selling. I just feel he was handcuffed the last two years he was here. Thats all.

Like I said earlier, CP and Gun were the two biggest reasons for the failure of the team these past few years. To have a HC and a DC who were at an obvious disagreement as to what the philosophy should be reeks of the HC being saddled with the DC by the GM.

And for the DC to stick around with a HC with whom he disagrees with... despite what he said to the media... then throw the HC under the bus on the way out the door... foot shuffling porter all the way. Good riddance.

Look, Im not trying to make the argument that Gun is a great coach, I just wont speak badly of him. Is that such a ****ing crime?

The Lions bandwagon is probably not full yet if you are looking to purchase a seat o' drinker of the GunsKOOLAID.

Really, are you ****ing serious? I will look forward to seeing gun change the direction of that defense now that he is in charge, BUT dont go making assumptions you know anything about how true of a CHIEFS fan I really am. Unacceptable.

BarrysKoolaid is the best.

He loves Gunther because Gunther loved the Chiefs. Gunther was one of the MAIN reasons this team sucked so bad. It's OK to have a KCJohnny crush because you met his family. I met him several times as well. Nice guy, shit football coach.

Your problem is that you let your personal feelings get in the way of production. You are a lot like Carl Peterson.

See, I just wont talk shit about him now that he is gone. I will wish him well, and hope that people can remember what he DID do for the CHiefs.

Even if the cover two wasn't ****her's desired defnse, he still has to run it, and has to make sure all the pieces are in the right place, and that they all are performing at their best.

Take a guy like Ron Rivera.

Here's a guy that played in Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, cut his coaching teeth in Jim Johnson's blitzing defense, and ran the cover two with great success in Chicago.

When he and Lovie have a falling out, and he ends up as LB coach in San Diego, and takes over that 34 defense in mid saeson and that defense improves almost instantly as soon as he takes over.

This is guy that understands defense and how to run them.

He doesn't have to have his defense to succeed.

But go ahead, Barry, buy the ****her Kool-Aid.

I hope your dumb ass drowns in it.

Again, someone making an assumption about me, that is completely FALSE. I never said that Gunther was a hall of fame coach. My point was simple. If he had gotten to use the scheme he wanted to use, not lost his best rusher, and a little more leadership to work with, I think Gun would have done fine. I seem to remember his defense playing pretty good in the playoff game against the Colts in Herms first season. If you dont like that I serve Koolaid, dont drink it. I dont understand know how much more clear I can be on this issue. But yet on the other board, you say you enjoy the debate. Its fucking half full Milkman. Now leave me alone already, and let me bring back the 12th fucking man.

RustShack
06-24-2009, 04:08 PM
Even if the cover two wasn't Cunther's desired defnse, he still has to run it, and has to make sure all the pieces are in the right place, and that they all are performing at their best.

Take a guy like Ron Rivera.

Here's a guy that played in Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, cut his coaching teeth in Jim Johnson's blitzing defense, and ran the cover two with great success in Chicago.

When he and Lovie have a falling out, and he ends up as LB coach in San Diego, and takes over that 34 defense in mid saeson and that defense improves almost instantly as soon as he takes over.

This is guy that understands defense and how to run them.

He doesn't have to have his defense to succeed.

But go ahead, Barry, buy the Cunther Kool-Aid.

I hope your dumb ass drowns in it.

:clap:

RustShack
06-24-2009, 04:08 PM
God, you are a fucking douche.

So Gunther coaches linebackers. Derrick Johnson REGRESSES every single year he's with Gunther. Gunther can't decide if he's a middle linebacker, sam, or will.

Yet, IT'S NOT GUNTHER'S FAULT?

I don't give a flying fuck what DJ's thoughts on Gun are. You don't need to know his thoughts, you need to watch tape to see his production.

That doesn't lie.

But the Players loved Herm, hes such a great coach.

RustShack
06-24-2009, 04:15 PM
Gun had time to run his defense under Vermiel, Carl brought in every single player Gun wanted. He had time, and he couldn't do anything without a defensive coach holding his hand. Sure he should have been let go when Herm was hired, but if he was a good DC he could run more than one scheme with success.

The Bad Guy
06-24-2009, 04:22 PM
Barry,

What exactly are you thankful that Gunther did for the Chiefs? He didn't win a playoff game with his defense, he didn't live up to the promises he made when he was hired as a HC, and then again as a DC.

The Chiefs went out and traded for or signed every single free agent he wanted. A lot of the reason the Chiefs had cap troubles in 2006 were because we had to go out and get the Patrick Surtain, Kendrell Bell's, Carlos Hall's of the world.

Gunther was basically given a wishlist in 2005 and his defense blew a TON of games that year.

I just don't get why anyone is even remotely fond of Gunther as the coach.

BarrySPAMAID
06-24-2009, 04:56 PM
Barry,

What exactly are you thankful that Gunther did for the Chiefs? He didn't win a playoff game with his defense, he didn't live up to the promises he made when he was hired as a HC, and then again as a DC.

The Chiefs went out and traded for or signed every single free agent he wanted. A lot of the reason the Chiefs had cap troubles in 2006 were because we had to go out and get the Patrick Surtain, Kendrell Bell's, Carlos Hall's of the world.

Gunther was basically given a wishlist in 2005 and his defense blew a TON of games that year.

I just don't get why anyone is even remotely fond of Gunther as the coach.

As a head coach, he holds the record for most wins in a rookie season as a coach for this franchise. That would be a start. I see your point. I still think last year did him in with Chiefsnation, and he got the raw end of the deal. I also think Gun was offered a position to stay, and he probably stuck his middle finger in the air. That's just my opinion. If you call that his wishlist in 2005, I guess I can go along with that, but trading away a franchise defensive end, and replacing him with a 3 year project doesn't exactly give me the vibe that Gun was getting what he wanted. It is now better that he is gone, and as I have said numerous times before in this thread, I was never calling him defensive coordinator of the year.

All I have ever said, is when you hold him next to Clancy, Apples, to Apples. Clancy will do better, because his players will be in shape, and he will be running a scheme he is comfortable with. Again, Apples to Apples, lets continue this discussion when Detroit's defense is improving this year. ( Which it will )

RustShack
06-24-2009, 05:09 PM
All I have ever said, is when you hold him next to Clancy, Apples, to Apples. Clancy will do better, because his players will be in shape, and he will be running a scheme he is comfortable with. Again, Apples to Apples, lets continue this discussion when Detroit's defense is improving this year. ( Which it will )

We aren't running a 4-3 defense... Clancy isn't a 3-4 guy... As for Detroit, well it can't get worse. Also he has a defensive HC holding his hand again.

the Talking Can
06-24-2009, 05:17 PM
gunther was such a great coach that his team quit on him, and admitted it....



if it weren't for DT this clown wouldn't have a job anymore.....no one has milked a legacy more than Gunther...clown, fraud, failure....he has destroyed this franchise as much as anyone...

chiefzilla1501
06-24-2009, 05:21 PM
I dont keep buying anything he is selling. I just feel he was handcuffed the last two years he was here. Thats all.
He had plenty of blitzes integrated into his defense. They all failed. When he brashly fired the LBs coach, he essentially took accountability for the LBs who all got 100 times worse. Gun claims he was handcuffed by Vermeil and then by Herm. Only so many times you can cry wolf before you realize that the crier is the problem.

See, I just wont talk shit about him now that he is gone. I will wish him well, and hope that people can remember what he DID do for the CHiefs.
I have the same sentiment for Coach Vermeil. But fuck Gunther Cunningham. He blamed Vermeil, the front office, Herm Edwards, his defensive assistants, and the talent of his players for his failures. Never once did he blame himself. And on the way out, he took a cheap shot at Herm Edwards, a coach who defended him during his failed era. I'm willing to move on most of the time.

Again, someone making an assumption about me, that is completely FALSE. I never said that Gunther was a hall of fame coach. My point was simple. If he had gotten to use the scheme he wanted to use, not lost his best rusher, and a little more leadership to work with, I think Gun would have done fine. I seem to remember his defense playing pretty good in the playoff game against the Colts in Herms first season. If you dont like that I serve Koolaid, dont drink it. I dont understand know how much more clear I can be on this issue. But yet on the other board, you say you enjoy the debate. Its ****ing half full Milkman. Now leave me alone already, and let me bring back the 12th ****ing man.
And what was his excuse during the Vermeil years when he ran his own scheme? Wasn't he the coach who told Carl Peterson that if they got Sammy Knight, Kendrell Bell, and Patrick Surtain (or Rolle) that he could take the defense to the top? How did they all fare?

Did you not watch the game where TO thrashed the Chiefs and Gun refused to switch McCleon off of him? Did you not watch how our moron LBs continually overpursued plays under his direction? Or how our CBs continued to play 15 yards off the ball?

Gun has NEVER fielded a strong defense without Marty. And yet, Marty brought a great defense to Cleveland, Kansas City, AND San Diego. You say that Herm handcuffed Marty. Isn't it possible that Gun also piggybackd off Marty?

chiefzilla1501
06-24-2009, 05:23 PM
We aren't running a 4-3 defense... Clancy isn't a 3-4 guy... As for Detroit, well it can't get worse. Also he has a defensive HC holding his hand again.

I am really hoping taht Clancy is a one-year fix. I hate this defense.

I agree with you wholeheartedly--if you want to run a 3-4, bring a 3-4 guy in. None of this hybrid shit. I guarantee that, like Arizona, his scheme is going to be overly confusing and that they'll continue to struggle to bring the right players for his scheme because nobody knows what his scheme really is.

Raised On Riots
06-24-2009, 05:24 PM
I am really hoping taht Clancy is a one-year fix. I hate this defense.

I agree with you wholeheartedly--if you want to run a 3-4, bring a 3-4 guy in. None of this hybrid shit. I guarantee that, like Arizona, his scheme is going to be overly confusing and that they'll continue to struggle to bring the right players for his scheme because nobody knows what his scheme really is.

Well now that's depressing.

RustShack
06-24-2009, 05:37 PM
I think the Chiefs just bybass the hybrid and just go straight 3-4. Pen at least has some experience in that area, and hopefully he unlike Gun can run more than one defense. I don't like his track record so far, but he did do fairly well in the playoffs last year. He could end up doing well for us, he could end up a stop gap for Romeo Crennel... time will tell. Either way I'm glad that fraud Gun is out of the door.

Raised On Riots
06-24-2009, 06:00 PM
I think the Chiefs just bybass the hybrid and just go straight 3-4. Pen at least has some experience in that area, and hopefully he unlike Gun can run more than one defense. I don't like his track record so far, but he did do fairly well in the playoffs last year. He could end up doing well for us, he could end up a stop gap for Romeo Crennel... time will tell. Either way I'm glad that fraud Gun is out of the door.

Dare to dream...