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doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Royals just traded one of their top young pitching prospects, Daniel Cortes, to the Mariners for shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt.

Wow.

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:13 PM
By the way, this is done, and will be announced shortly.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:13 PM
ROYALS ACQUIRE SHORTSTOP YUNIESKY BETANCOURT FROM SEATTLE FOR TWO MINOR LEAGUE PITCHERS


KANSAS CITY, MO (July 10, 2009) – The Kansas City Royals have acquired shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt and cash considerations from the Seattle Mariners in exchange for minor league pitchers Danny Cortes and Derrick Saito. Betancourt, who was placed on the 15-day disabled list on June 25 with a strained left hamstring and has just begun an injury rehabilitation assignment with Tacoma (AAA), will continue his rehab assignment for Northwest Arkansas (AA). His name is pronounced Yuniesky (yoon-ee-ESS-kee) Betancourt (BET-an-court).

The 27-year old Betancourt was hitting .250 (56-for-224) with 10 doubles, one triple, two home runs and 22 RBI in 63 games for the Mariners prior to his D.L. stint. He is a career .279 hitter with 123 doubles, 17 triples, 27 home runs and 202 RBI over five seasons with Seattle after making his debut in 2005. Since becoming the Mariners full-time shortstop in 2006, his 341 double plays rank second in all of baseball to Oakland ’s Orlando Cabrera (357). He has been tough to strikeout throughout his career, fanning just once every 11.86 plate appearances, the sixth-best total in baseball since 2005 (min. 2,000 at bats).

The 5-foot-10, 195-pound right handed hitter is a native of Santa Clara , Cuba , who currently resides in Boca Raton , Fla. The Mariners originally signed him as a non-drafted free agent on January 26, 2005 and then signed him to a three-year extension through 2011 with a club option for 2012 on April 4, 2007.

Cortes will be assigned to West Tennessee (AA) and Saito will be assigned to Clinton (A) in the Mariners’ system.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:13 PM
Betancourt is ok...they must not be that high on Cortez is all I can think because if they are it's not going to be remembered favorably.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-10-2009, 02:14 PM
We must be pretty happy with the prospects to give up Bettancourt. He'll serve you guys well I think.

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:14 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6218

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:14 PM
Betancourt is ok...they must not be that high on Cortez is all I can think because if they are it's not going to be remembered favorably.

He has regressed but i still had hope he'd hone his control...

im guessing his immaturity isn't viewed well, getting arrested for public intoxication recently

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:15 PM
We must be pretty happy with the prospects to give up Bettancourt. He'll serve you guys well I think.

Cortes is a top pitching prospect. I'm sure the Mariners are thrilled to get him.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:16 PM
royals scout board is going ape shit, they dont like how he can't hit worth crap and is an overrated fielder...

even though the last few years he's hit in hte .280's

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:17 PM
At least this hopefully spells the end of TPJ. I was really hoping we could make a push for Yunel Escobar, but I guess this probably puts that to rest as well.

Chocolate Hog
07-10-2009, 02:17 PM
Only the Royals would trade a good pitching prospect for a short stop. Woohoo Dayton!

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:18 PM
I can't say I like it I know the Royals need a SS but I don't think you should trade a top pitching prospect for a guy who is nothing more than a solid player there.

The Royals are far from set in their rotation to just give up pitchers.

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:18 PM
royals scout board is going ape shit, they dont like how he can't hit worth crap and is an overrated fielder...

even though the last few years he's hit in hte .280's

I really don't like this trade at all either. I think Cortes will be a good pitcher, and Betancourt is probably the 30th best SS in the majors.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:18 PM
Meh. Another light-hitting SS. Guess ATL wouldn't budge, as it would have been a hell of a lot better to get Escobar. Oh well.

Certainly a major improvement over what we have, though. Not saying much there.

Wonder where Bloomquist will play now? RF and DH Guillen?

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:18 PM
At least this hopefully spells the end of TPJ. I was really hoping we could make a push for Yunel Escobar, but I guess this probably puts that to rest as well.

Braves will not trade Yunel, even if Cox doesnt like him

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Only the Royals would trade a good pitching prospect for a short stop. Woohoo Dayton!

That's certainly not true.

But, for Betancourt, yeah maybe.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Another light-hitting SS. Guess ATL wouldn't budge, as it would have been a hell of a lot better to get Escobar. Oh well.

Certainly a major improvement over what we have, though. Wonder where Bloomquist will play now? RF and DH Guillen?

TPJ has to be gone now, no way he should survive this. That said i hate giving up on cortes, but who knows he may never get his control back. I just hate giving up young pitching...

I hope betancourt can retain his .280+ avg and 30-35 dbls a season and play solid SS, that would be awesome

Hope the change in scenery helps

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:21 PM
Rany's recent update provides great analysis of how Moore and co. can't identify current ML talent worth a shit. When projecting, they do pretty well. When trying to identify an already "developed" player, the organization sucks shit.

This acquisition doesn't seem to defy this trend.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:21 PM
His HR numbers might go up since playing in Seattle is not a great thing for HR's.

But aside from that you only make deals like this if you have a dominant rotation and your bullpen is lights out.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:22 PM
TPJ has to be gone now, no way he should survive this. That said i hate giving up on cortes, but who knows he may never get his control back. I just hate giving up young pitching...

I hope betancourt can retain his .280+ avg and 30-35 dbls a season and play solid SS, that would be awesome

Hope the change in scenery helps

Yes, it would. I'm not optimistic, though, but I've really, really down on the Royals and Dayton Moore's anti-Midas touch.

ChiTown
07-10-2009, 02:22 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

good stuff.

Chocolate Hog
07-10-2009, 02:23 PM
Rany's recent update provides great analysis of how Moore and co. can't identify current ML talent worth a shit. When projecting, they do pretty well. When trying to identify an already "developed" player, the organization sucks shit.

This acquisition doesn't seem to defy this trend.

haha is that guy still suspended for bad mouthing the team? Good thing Carl isn't the Chiefs GM anymore.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:23 PM
Tough to acquire high-quality guys who play in the middle of the diamond. You're going to have to give up more than the return is expected to be. Then you hope the return surprises.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:24 PM
Yes, it would. I'm not optimistic, though, but I've really, really down on the Royals and Dayton Moore's anti-Midas touch.

I understand, but all we can do is hope, that's all we have as damn fans of the Royals!!....ugh

Seriously though Cortes could be like another former top prospect of ours, denny bautista, who couldn't get his control and went to the crapper. Hell, this trade may be worth it if it gets lover boy pena jr out of here

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:25 PM
Even if Betancourt is alright they still acquired a bottom of the order hitter which means they still only have about 7 more positions they need to fill.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:25 PM
Even if Betancourt is alright they still acquired a bottom of the order hitter which means they still only have about 7 more positions they need to fill.

I don't expect a world burner at SS, just someone that can atleast bat .200:shake:

petegz28
07-10-2009, 02:27 PM
I'm not THAT disappointed with this trade. All things considered at least Betencourt has a cool name. Seriosuly though, I know little about Cortez but Yuni is at least a big upgrade considering what we have at SS currently.

petegz28
07-10-2009, 02:27 PM
I don't expect a world burner at SS, just someone that can atleast bat .200:shake:

If we can get someone to hit .200 and play a solid SS that is a big improvement over what we have now.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:27 PM
Royals Acquire Yuniesky Betancourt
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 10, 2009 at 2:17pm CST]
The Royals acquired Yuniesky Betancourt and cash from the Mariners for a pair of minor league pitchers, according to Joe Hamrahi of Baseball Daily Digest. Betancourt makes at least $10MM before his current deal expires, so it'll be interesting to see how much the Mariners are contributing. The pitchers are Danny Cortes and Derrick Saito.


A mariners fan commented on this and said 'man we didn't get anything back' haha

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:28 PM
betancourt usually tears us up when we play the mariners, lets hope he can contribute well for us. Go Royalsssssssss!11111111

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:28 PM
A certain upgrade, obviously. Was it a fair trade? Hard telling right now. I will reserve judgment. At least they seem like they want to do some wheeling and dealing to TRY and better the club.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:29 PM
I don't expect a world burner at SS, just someone that can atleast bat .200:shake:

Well in todays game middle infielders can hit. But I don't have a problem with that strategy but it requires you to have either 1st and 3rd or boppers in the OF.

A guy like Chase Utley gives the Phillies a huge advantage because they can put guys like Shane Victorino in their OF cause they get so much production from 2nd base.

petegz28
07-10-2009, 02:29 PM
One thing Dayton has doen fairly well with is pitching. I know, I know..HoRam and Farnsy don't jive. But overall he has improved our pitching staff. So maybe Cortez was not impressing anyone. We have to give to get. And right now we need someone capable of playing SS and batting over .095

Fruit Ninja
07-10-2009, 02:30 PM
Still cant beleive my Dodgers have the best record in baseall. I know the Royals' haveturned a new leaf and are being competitive now. Awesome to see. I have no hate for them, but like i said. my Dodgers have never lead like this since i been watching them in the mid 80's really. haha

Mr. Arrowhead
07-10-2009, 02:31 PM
if this gets rid of TPJ, then im all for it

Mr. Flopnuts
07-10-2009, 02:31 PM
Royals Acquire Yuniesky Betancourt
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 10, 2009 at 2:17pm CST]
The Royals acquired Yuniesky Betancourt and cash from the Mariners for a pair of minor league pitchers, according to Joe Hamrahi of Baseball Daily Digest. Betancourt makes at least $10MM before his current deal expires, so it'll be interesting to see how much the Mariners are contributing. The pitchers are Danny Cortes and Derrick Saito.


A mariners fan commented on this and said 'man we didn't get anything back' haha

That was a dumb M's fan. We're actually in the thick of things for the division this year so I'm sure the passive fans are saying "Where's our starter?" I hope this Cortes kid is all he's built up to be.

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:31 PM
Any way we can get this guy flown in ASAP for tonight's game? Ala Freel. Anything to NOT see TPJ and his nappy, greasy hair tonight.
Posted via Mobile Device

petegz28
07-10-2009, 02:31 PM
Still cant beleive my Dodgers have the best record in baseall. I know the Royals' haveturned a new leaf and are being competitive now. Awesome to see. I have no hate for them, but like i said. my Dodgers have never lead like this since i been watching them in the mid 80's really. haha

Can I offer you an anti-freeze cocktail?

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:31 PM
I'm sure they won't release pena, they'll turn him into a coach or something, maybe for the 'little k'

wild1
07-10-2009, 02:32 PM
Why does this illicit a "Wow"?

Cortes was a throw-in with Lumsden in trading Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

Saito was drafted last season in the 16th round and has only pitched in Low A

Betancourt is a career .280 hitter with a respectable OPS for a shortstop.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-10-2009, 02:32 PM
Any way we can get this guy flown in ASAP for tonight's game? Ala Freel. Anything to NOT see TPJ and his nappy, greasy hair tonight.
Posted via Mobile Device

He's on rehab as he just came off the 15 day DL.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:32 PM
That was a dumb M's fan. We're actually in the thick of things for the division this year so I'm sure the passive fans are saying "Where's our starter?" I hope this Cortes kid is all he's built up to be.

We'll send you pena jr and hernandez for cortes

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:33 PM
I could give two shits if he just came off the DL. He could be in a wheelchair and blind in his left eye and STILL outperform Pena.
Posted via Mobile Device

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:34 PM
Why does this illicit a "Wow"? Cortes was a throw-in with Lumsden in trading Mike MacDougal to the White Sox. Betancourt is a career .280 hitter with a respectable OPS for a shortstop.

Cause he had alot of promise, esp last year...he was toted with the best fastball and curve in the minors for us last year...

he went way downhill tis year, and he seems to be an idiot, just see his myspace.

I wish him luck, but as a middle reliever, id hate to get burned here.

KCUnited
07-10-2009, 02:34 PM
Listening to the reporter for Seattle, it sounds like this guy will fit in perfect with the Royals. No heart.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 02:34 PM
This is a good trade. Betancourt is actually ML caliber SS. What's his contract like?

ChiTown
07-10-2009, 02:34 PM
I could give two shits if he just came off the DL. He could be in a wheelchair and blind in his left eye and STILL outperform Pena.
Posted via Mobile Device

ROFL

lots of truth to that.............

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:34 PM
Listening to the reporter for Seattle, it sounds like this guy will fit in perfect with the Royals. No heart.

I wouldn't say that the royals have no heart, they just don't have talent or brains

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:36 PM
This trade deepens up our bullpen up quite a biy. Har har.
Posted via Mobile Device

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Now we can ship guillen and betancourt for escobar and frenchy!11111

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Why does this illicit a "Wow"?

Cortes was a throw-in with Lumsden in trading Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

Saito was drafted last season in the 16th round and has only pitched in Low A

Betancourt is a career .280 hitter with a respectable OPS for a shortstop.

Because we just traded away another one of our best young arms for an average ML player.

See also: Ramon Ramirez, Leo Nunez

RJ
07-10-2009, 02:38 PM
royals scout board is going ape shit, they dont like how he can't hit worth crap and is an overrated fielder...

even though the last few years he's hit in hte .280's


Problem with Betancourt is that his OBP doesn't run much higher than his average. I thought he would develop into a 15/15 type, but thus far it hasn't happened.

I read mixed reviews on his glove. The Mariners aren't on TV often enough for me to have my own opinion.

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:39 PM
This is a good trade. Betancourt is actually ML caliber SS. What's his contract like?

He's making 2.3MM this year, and still is owed $10MM over the remainder of his contract

Mr. Krab
07-10-2009, 02:39 PM
Can please cut or demote TPJ now? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111

wild1
07-10-2009, 02:40 PM
Because we just traded away another one of our best young arms for an average ML player.

See also: Ramon Ramirez, Leo Nunez

What do you know about Cortes. All I know is that he's said to have a poor attitude

Betancourt is a credible everyday MLB player at a key position, and one at which the Royals had nothing.

wild1
07-10-2009, 02:40 PM
He's making 2.3MM this year, and still is owed $10MM over the remainder of his contract

Mariners will be contributing some of it, I'm sure.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:41 PM
Why does this illicit a "Wow"?

Cortes was a throw-in with Lumsden in trading Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

Saito was drafted last season in the 16th round and has only pitched in Low A

Betancourt is a career .280 hitter with a respectable OPS for a shortstop.

And where's Lumsden now?

Demonpenz
07-10-2009, 02:41 PM
I would be willing to give up alot just to get TPJ out of the majors. tough to score when you have an out everytime he comes up, unproductive outs at that

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:41 PM
Not trying to stir the pot here.

But, how can anyone really judge this trade when Cortes doesn't have any ML experience yet (as far as I know)?

I guess that's what message boards are for.


PENA TO THE BULLPENZZSSZZ!! LATE RELIEF!

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:42 PM
A career .695 ops....man i hope the change is good for him, i heard he didn't like SEA much.

wild1
07-10-2009, 02:42 PM
And where's Lumsden now?

He sucked his way into the Astros organization. Who cares.

KCUnited
07-10-2009, 02:43 PM
What do you know about Cortes. All I know is that he's said to have a poor attitude

Betancourt is a credible everyday MLB player at a key position, and one at which the Royals had nothing.
Schaum was on saying that he's got the stuff, he just can't seem to pull it together mentally. Hard on himself, has problem overcoming poor defense.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 02:43 PM
Schaum was on saying that he's got the stuff, he just can't seem to pull it together mentally. Hard on himself, has problem overcoming poor defense.

Has a problem with the sauce as well

sedated
07-10-2009, 02:43 PM
And where's Lumsden now?

getting rocked in AA. I don't even think he's a part of the Royals organization anymore is he?

EDIT: with the 'stros

KCUnited
07-10-2009, 02:45 PM
A career .695 ops....man i hope the change is good for him, i heard he didn't like SEA much.
Reporter from Seattle was saying that his best years were with Jose Guillen because Guillen would ride his ass and wouldn't let him get away with poor effort.

Mr. Krab
07-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Given how crappy most of our minor league players are i don't think people should be too upset. Even an average shortstop is twice as good as any shortstop we've tried to develop for 20 years.

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Reporter from Seattle was saying that his best years were with Jose Guillen because Guillen would ride his ass and wouldn't let him get away with poor effort.

As a fan of this organization (however much they may suck) I hope Hillman doesn't allow any ASS RIDING!

If he does, I'M DONE WITH THIS ORGANIZATION!

petegz28
07-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Reporter from Seattle was saying that his best years were with Jose Guillen because Guillen would ride his ass and wouldn't let him get away with poor effort.

Irony.....

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Has Moore made a good trade yet, I think that's a question to ponder.

KCUnited
07-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Guy also said the other night in AAA, he lost track of the number of outs and ran off the field on a routine pop up and got doubled up. Thought that was funny.

RJ
07-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Because we just traded away another one of our best young arms for an average ML player.

See also: Ramon Ramirez, Leo Nunez



I don't know, these Double A stats don't look so promising.

80IP, 3.92ERA, 50BB, 57K, .258BAA

Not horrible, but that K/BB ratio belongs to a guy who needs a lot of work before he's ready for MLB.

sedated
07-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Because we just traded away another one of our best young arms for an average ML player.

See also: Ramon Ramirez, Leo Nunez

:shake:

yeah, we pretty much gave those guys away

I think DM's success at finding bullpen arms went to his head, kinda like Shanahan and his RBs. "I can make a bullpen out of paper clips and silly string."

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:48 PM
Can we trade Teahen? That would make my day.

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:48 PM
What was the rumor last year regarding Teahen?

Wasn't him for Robinson Cano or something similar?

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:49 PM
I'm going to miss SAUTO. He was a pretty good poster.

sedated
07-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Has Moore made a good trade yet, I think that's a question to ponder.

Burgos for Bannister

Fruit Ninja
07-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Can I offer you an anti-freeze cocktail?

Sure, we can give it to your dog first.

Demonpenz
07-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Has Moore made a good trade yet, I think that's a question to ponder.

bannister for burgos letting mcdougal and andrew sisco go was nice

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:51 PM
If we can get someone to hit .200 and play a solid SS that is a big improvement over what we have now.

Fuck.

wild1
07-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Has Moore made a good trade yet, I think that's a question to ponder.

nunez for jacobs is good value. huber for crisp (by way of ramirez) is excellent value. buckner for callapso was great value. burgos for brian bannister is good value. now cortes for betancourt is good value

none of these are blockbusters but all of them received more than they gave up.

nice try though.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 02:52 PM
Those are still really minor though hell Callaspo he got the better end of but alot of the trades he got the better of have to do with the other guy sucking move or them being pushes.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:52 PM
Can we trade Teahen? That would make my day.

Dude, Teahen is a fine ML player, but not when he's asked to hit 3-5. That's a fucking joke.

Hating Teahen is focusing your anger in the wrong direction.

sedated
07-10-2009, 02:52 PM
Has Moore made a good trade yet, I think that's a question to ponder.

picking up RamRam was great, even though we let him go for essentially nothing the next year.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:53 PM
nunez for jacobs is good value. huber for crisp (by way of ramirez) is excellent value. buckner for callapso was great value. burgos for brian bannister is good value. now cortes for betancourt is good value

none of these are blockbusters but all of them received more than they gave up.

nice try though.

In theory, these were good value. In practice, they sure as hell haven't received more than they gave up. Not by a long shot.

wild1
07-10-2009, 02:54 PM
In theory, these were good value. In practice, they sure as hell haven't received more than they gave up. Not by a long shot.

Yes, all of them received more than they gave up.

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Any other rumors of note?

Are we still interested in pursuing JF?

Demonpenz
07-10-2009, 02:55 PM
what does marky T project out this year .290 19 hr's and plays anywhere without bitching

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Because we just traded away another one of our best young arms for an average ML player.

See also: Ramon Ramirez, Leo Nunez

Cortes couldn't break into a rotation that has included Pontoon, Davies, and Chen.

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Yes, all of them received more than they gave up.

How the hell do you figure this?

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:56 PM
Yes, all of them received more than they gave up.

Jacobs and Crisp are not "more." The former's level of suck at the plate isn't at TPJ level, but he's in the same ballpark. The latter cannot stay healthy. Essentially we received the ML version of Croyle.

doomy3
07-10-2009, 02:56 PM
Dude, Teahen is a fine ML player, but not when he's asked to hit 3-5. That's a ****ing joke.

Hating Teahen is focusing your anger in the wrong direction.

Totally agree. I will never understand the Teahen hate.

sedated
07-10-2009, 02:56 PM
Bad trades galore:

Howell for gathwright
De la rosa for nothing
Macdougal for nothing
Dotel for davies
Nunez for Jacobs
RamRam for a month of Coco
Elmer dessens for odalis perez
Affeldt for shealy

Mr. Krab
07-10-2009, 02:57 PM
what does marky T project out this year .290 19 hr's and plays anywhere without bitchingand gets treated like shit from pretty much everyone. The Royals jack him around like a little redheaded bitch, alot of the fans hate him. :shake:

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 02:57 PM
what does marky T project out this year .290 19 hr's and plays anywhere without bitching

Blaming Teahen for the team's problems is similar to when people used to blame a healthy Mike Sweeney for the Royals suckage.

Productive players aren't the problem.

Jethopper
07-10-2009, 02:57 PM
terrible trade.

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:58 PM
I like Teahen because his t-shirt jersey was on sale at Kohl's. Which was an automatic purchase, obv.


CHYEAH!

Ceej
07-10-2009, 02:59 PM
terrible trade.

This analysis = your avatar's background colors.

RJ
07-10-2009, 02:59 PM
and gets treated like shit from pretty much everyone. The Royals jack him around like a little redheaded bitch, alot of the fans hate him. :shake:


Does the hate stem from his not living up to the hype he came with?

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:00 PM
So are we going to have him hitting in the 3 hole when he gets off the DL?

I'm sure we'll find a way to completely misuse his skills. 4 hole, possibly?

Demonpenz
07-10-2009, 03:00 PM
and gets treated like shit from pretty much everyone. The Royals jack him around like a little redheaded bitch, alot of the fans hate him. :shake:



he is a good dude to have on the team. If Mark played in a ball park that wasn't 387 to the gaps he would probably have 24-28 homeruns a year.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:01 PM
Blaming Teahen for the team's problems is similar to when people used to blame a healthy Mike Sweeney for the Royals suckage.

Productive players aren't the problem.

Alot of it is the Royals act like he's a cornerstone foundation player when he's at best a role player. I don't want to see Mark Teahen batting 3rd ever again.

And I don't see how anyone can call that Jacobs trade a win, he is a worse fielder than Sweeney and his hitting isn't good enough to offset it.

Demonpenz
07-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Alot of it is the Royals act like he's a cornerstone foundation player when he's at best a role player. I don't want to see Mark Teahen batting 3rd ever again.

And I don't see how anyone can call that Jacobs trade a win, he is a worse fielder than Sweeney and his hitting isn't good enough to offset it.

.290 out of your 3 hitter *gasp*

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:03 PM
Alot of it is the Royals act like he's a cornerstone foundation player when he's at best a role player. I don't want to see Mark Teahen batting 3rd ever again.

And I don't see how anyone can call that Jacobs trade a win, he is a worse fielder than Sweeney and his hitting isn't good enough to offset it.

Now I agree with all of this. He's not a cornerstone; he's an ancillary part of a winning team.

And Jacobs is a lesser fielding TPJ with an occasional HR. Terrible, terrible player and a complete waste of a roster spot.

Mr. Krab
07-10-2009, 03:04 PM
Does the hate stem from his not living up to the hype he came with?What hype? He's not Alice Gordon.

I think Teahen's only real problem is that he doesn't step up when the heat is on. Bottom of the 9th, 2 men on,2 runs down .... Teahen is probably gonna pop out. But that doesn't mean he sucks, he's just not a superstar type.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:04 PM
Jacobs and Crisp are not "more." The former's level of suck at the plate isn't at TPJ level, but he's in the same ballpark. The latter cannot stay healthy. Essentially we received the ML version of Croyle.

Crisp had never had injury problems. You can't predict injuries, they just happen sometimes. In any case it is a phenomenal trade to get a quality everyday guy like Crisp for a guy who's closing in on 30 and has never been able to break into the majors. (september callups don't count)

getting Jacobs for nunez is fine. The royals have put together respectable bullpens for the last few years and could spare someone to to add 20-25 home runs. he slumped in june but otherwise his numbers are in line with the .250/25 you expect from him. nunez is a better reliever than jacobs is a hitter but value is a question of abundance and need

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:04 PM
Alot of it is the Royals act like he's a cornerstone foundation player when he's at best a role player.

nobody f*cking acts like that

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:04 PM
.290 out of your 3 hitter *gasp*

Absolutely. Spork and his triples FTMFW1111

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:06 PM
nobody f*cking acts like that

What's the tacit statement that's being made when he's hitting in the 3 hole? Or we hear talk about his "continued development"?

doomy3
07-10-2009, 03:06 PM
Crisp had never had injury problems. You can't predict injuries, they just happen sometimes. In any case it is a phenomenal trade to get a quality everyday guy like Crisp for a guy who's closing in on 30 and has never been able to break into the majors. (september callups don't count)

getting Jacobs for nunez is fine. The royals have put together respectable bullpens for the last few years and could spare someone to to add 20-25 home runs. he slumped in june but otherwise his numbers are in line with the .250/25 you expect from him. nunez is a better reliever than jacobs is a hitter but value is a question of abundance and need

What? Crisp had most definitely been injured. And are you talking about RamRam at the end of that first paragraph? What on earth are you talking about?

DJ's left nut
07-10-2009, 03:06 PM
Betancourt's a solid SS, a legit MLer.

I generally don't advocate trading for guys that are average to slightly above average players, but that kindof goes by the wayside when you're talking about SS.

Cortes is a nice prospect but at some point you need to find a way to get an actual shortstop. Betancourt is young enough to be a long-term option and he'll be a viable everyday player for you.

The Royals might have overpayed just a little bit, but that's the nature of getting a SS. You can't just keep trotting out nothing players at what is, IMO, the most important position in baseball.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:07 PM
Crisp had never had injury problems. You can't predict injuries, they just happen sometimes. In any case it is a phenomenal trade to get a quality everyday guy like Crisp for a guy who's closing in on 30 and has never been able to break into the majors. (september callups don't count)

getting Jacobs for nunez is fine. The royals have put together respectable bullpens for the last few years and could spare someone to to add 20-25 home runs. he slumped in june but otherwise his numbers are in line with the .250/25 you expect from him. nunez is a better reliever than jacobs is a hitter but value is a question of abundance and need

I stopped here.

Demonpenz
07-10-2009, 03:08 PM
Absolutely. Spork and his triples FTMFW1111

No one thinks Marky T is a corner stone player, if they did they wouldn't dangle him in every trade, move him all over the diamond, hell his only t shirt tuesday was 3 years ago. Just like no corner outfielder bats 3 hundy with 40 jacks, and HAHAHAHAHA how the Wings were going to beat the Penguins. Mecca is wrong.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 03:08 PM
I like Teahen, i think he is solid at 3b, not OF though....a contender would love to have a guy that has a near .800 ops and can play 3b solidly and hit in hte .280's....

i bet he does better with talent around him like a Derosa

Mr. Krab
07-10-2009, 03:08 PM
Now we just have to trade Alex Gordon and Jose Guillen to Toronto for Roy Halladay. Get on that Dayton!!!

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:08 PM
What? Crisp had most definitely been injured. And are you talking about RamRam at the end of that first paragraph? What on earth are you talking about?

What chronic injuries are you talking abotu?

I thought we were judging MOore. he turned Justin Huber into Coco Crisp.

Demonpenz
07-10-2009, 03:09 PM
mecca also said "Soria isn't the same dude he was last year" because of a fucking game where Tejada threw the bat at a slider 5 god damn feet outside and blooped one in. Soria threw 93 mph that game as well.

DJJasonp
07-10-2009, 03:10 PM
I would have rather seen us pursue Freddy Sanchez....oh, wait....we dont spend money on quality players.

BWillie
07-10-2009, 03:11 PM
Great. Another hack that can't walk. I love it.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:11 PM
I stopped here.

Like when?

RJ
07-10-2009, 03:12 PM
What hype? He's not Alice Gordon.

I think Teahen's only real problem is that he doesn't step up when the heat is on. Bottom of the 9th, 2 men on,2 runs down .... Teahen is probably gonna pop out. But that doesn't mean he sucks, he's just not a superstar type.



Yeah, Teahen was a big time prospect. Remember the book Moneyball?

IIRC, Teahen and Buck were considered a very solid return for Beltran, though maybe not in KC.

sedated
07-10-2009, 03:12 PM
I thought we were judging MOore. he turned Justin Huber into Coco Crisp.

but the player in between was better than both of those two.

being the pessimist that I am, I see that as more of a negative then positive. we wouldn't have bullpen issues now if we hadn't have made the RamRam and Nunez deals, and our offense would probably be about the same.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:13 PM
Like when?

'06, '07, '08, and '09.

I'll let you do the legwork here. The dude has decent history of battling injuries.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:13 PM
but the player in between was better than both of those two.

being the pessimist that I am, I see that as more of a negative then positive. we wouldn't have bullpen issues now if we hadn't have made the RamRam and Nunez deals, and our offense would probably be about the same.

yes, if Moore had made the trade knowing Crisp would miss the season, then that would indeed have been a bad trade.

sedated
07-10-2009, 03:14 PM
I would have rather seen us pursue Freddy Sanchez....oh, wait....we dont spend money on quality players.

we could have gotten Orlando Hudson in the offseason if Glass would have ponied up another million or so.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:14 PM
'06, '07, '08, and '09.

I'll let you do the legwork here. The dude has decent history of battling injuries.

Like what? Are you just looking at his stats and seeing he didn't play so many games those years, he wasn't an everyday palyer on some good teams. What are these chronic injury problems?

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:15 PM
Alot of it is the Royals act like he's a cornerstone foundation player when he's at best a role player. I don't want to see Mark Teahen batting 3rd ever again.

This is the same ridiculous bile regurgitated by the same tired old stomach. Teahan has never been promoted as a cornerstone or a HoF candidate. He could be a valuable asset to a team that has established stars.

Unfortunately, Teahan is being asked to do something he's not capable of doing every day. Yet he goes out there and does give a good effort. He doesn't sulk or complain by proxy.

I don't like that he's in that position either, but let's not pretend it's his fault. Your expectations of him have far exceeded anything I ever thought he'd become.

Overall it's just frustrating as f*ck.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:16 PM
No one thinks Marky T is a corner stone player, if they did they wouldn't dangle him in every trade, move him all over the diamond, hell his only t shirt tuesday was 3 years ago. Just like no corner outfielder bats 3 hundy with 40 jacks, and HAHAHAHAHA how the Wings were going to beat the Penguins. Mecca is wrong.

Their mishandling of Teahen speaks to the organization's stupidity, IMO, not their perception of the player himself. And we've dangled almost everyone in potential trades.

A year or two ago, Moore tried to pull off the same deal for BetInCourt, with Butterball being sent to Seattle.

Dartgod
07-10-2009, 03:16 PM
nunez for jacobs is good value.
:spock:

JASONSAUTO
07-10-2009, 03:16 PM
Alot of it is the Royals act like he's a cornerstone foundation player when he's at best a role player. I don't want to see Mark Teahen batting 3rd ever again.

And I don't see how anyone can call that Jacobs trade a win, he is a worse fielder than Sweeney and his hitting isn't good enough to offset it.

when did we trade sweeny for jacobs?

Mr. Krab
07-10-2009, 03:18 PM
This is the same ridiculous bile regurgitated by the same tired old stomach. Teahan has never been promoted as a cornerstone or a HoF candidate. He could be a valuable asset to a team that has established stars.

Unfortunately, Teahan is being asked to do something he's not capable of doing every day. Yet he goes out there and does give a good effort. He doesn't sulk or complain by proxy.

I don't like that he's in that position either, but let's not pretend it's his fault. Your expectations of him have far exceeded anything I ever thought he'd become.

Overall it's just frustrating as f*ck.this

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:18 PM
Like what? Are you just looking at his stats and seeing he didn't play so many games those years, he wasn't an everyday palyer on some good teams. What are these chronic injury problems?

Google is your friend. He's been injured in all of these years. This is a fact, not guesswork done by looking at numbers. Thumbs, hamstrings, shoulders, etc.

I understand you think that all these trades have been wins, but they're not. Sorry. Moore has generally sucked ass on the trade front.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:19 PM
I didn't know Dayton Moore posted on the forum...

Someone tell me who sits down and builds a team that can't hit or field? And then tell me why that person should be called a competent GM.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:19 PM
Google is your friend. He's been injured in all of these years. This is a fact, not guesswork done by looking at numbers. Thumbs, hamstrings, shoulders, etc.

I understand you think that all these trades have been wins, but they're not. Sorry. Moore has generally sucked ass on the trade front.

Breaking a finger sliding into a base is something that can happen to anyone. The shoulder is this year. What else? I can't find any record of him spending time on the DL otherwise. Maybe you can enligten us with DL stays before his broken finger in 07

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:19 PM
I didn't know Dayton Moore posted on the forum...

Someone tell me who sits down and builds a team that can't hit or field? And then tell me why that person should be called a competent GM.

Someone tell me why someone who knows so little about baseball comments on it so much

RJ
07-10-2009, 03:20 PM
Like what? Are you just looking at his stats and seeing he didn't play so many games those years, he wasn't an everyday palyer on some good teams. What are these chronic injury problems?



FWIW, Crisp has spent 47 days on the DL over the past three seasons. Not so bad, really.

But since he had a finger injury with Boston - two years ago? - he hasn't really been the same hitter and really fell out of favor with the Red Sox.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:20 PM
when did we trade sweeny for jacobs?

It's a point everyone discussed how awful Sweeney was in the field...Jacobs is even worse. There are kids in middle school that can outfield Mike Jacobs.

DJJasonp
07-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Speaking of royals....I read the Royals Wiki page today.......i seriously nearly hung myself in my office afterwards.

It's broken down by 7 era's:

1. Taking off (1969-1979)
2. From Pennant to Pine Tar (1980-1984)
3. Missouri's Finest and the I-70 Series (1985)
4. Staying in the Picture (86-94)
5. The Decline (95-2001)
6. Rock Bottom (2002-2006)
7. New...Blue...Tradition (07-present)

Yikes.....oh, and we havent won the division since '85. Sh*t!

Dont click without removing antifreeze from your viewing area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Royals

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Someone tell me why someone who knows so little about baseball comments on it so much

You think trading for Mike Jacobs was a win how am I the one who doesn't know anything?

You're just defending all of his moves like his butt buddy.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:21 PM
we could have gotten Orlando Hudson in the offseason if Glass would have ponied up another million or so.

And we let raul Ibanez go 6 years ago!!!11111111

Great Expectations
07-10-2009, 03:22 PM
Totally agree. I will never understand the Teahen hate.

It is because he chokes at the plate in games where the score is +-2 runs and runners are on base. If there are 2 outs you can completely forget about him getting a hit in a tight game with runners on.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:24 PM
It's a point everyone discussed how awful Sweeney was in the field...Jacobs is even worse. There are kids in middle school that can outfield Mike Jacobs.

what does he play, about 5 games as a DH for every one he plays in the field.. nice to know you watch the team though ROFL

BigChiefFan
07-10-2009, 03:24 PM
Betancourt will help us win games, because the SS position has been a liability. If you're going the pitcher route, you have to have a quality SS and 2nd baseman. I like the move. He's relatively productive for the position and has alot of mileage left.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:25 PM
FWIW, Crisp has spent 47 days on the DL over the past three seasons. Not so bad, really.

But since he had a finger injury with Boston - two years ago? - he hasn't really been the same hitter and really fell out of favor with the Red Sox.

we were talking about up until the deal, so this year doesn't count. i don't rate the broken finger, he was sliding into a base. common injury, can happen to anyone. it's like getting hit in the face with a pitch, it doesn't make you injury prone

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:26 PM
I didn't know Dayton Moore posted on the forum...

Someone tell me who sits down and builds a team that can't hit or field? And then tell me why that person should be called a competent GM.

Fantasy GM's. You gotta love 'em. And we know they post on the forum.

Explain to me why when your opinion get shredded like a leg in a woodchipper, you move the goalposts to Dayton Moore's competence?

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:29 PM
It is because he chokes at the plate in games where the score is +-2 runs and runners are on base. If there are 2 outs you can completely forget about him getting a hit in a tight game with runners on.

Every other player in the bigs gets that hit. Nobody else fails.

Look, that's a ridiculous thing to say. He is what he is. And just for arguments sake, he did hit a big 9th inning HR against Wood this year that brought the team within two. The game was won on DDJ's knock later in the inning.

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 03:30 PM
Why does this illicit a "Wow"?

Cortes was a throw-in with Lumsden in trading Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

Saito was drafted last season in the 16th round and has only pitched in Low A

Betancourt is a career .280 hitter with a respectable OPS for a shortstop.
I think you have that backwards. Lumsden was the throw-in in that trade.

Cortes couldn't break into a rotation that has included Pontoon, Davies, and Chen.
Huh? Cortes wasn't very close to competing for a spot in the rotation, especially with his regression lately.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:30 PM
we were talking about up until the deal, so this year doesn't count. i don't rate the broken finger, he was sliding into a base. common injury, can happen to anyone. it's like getting hit in the face with a pitch, it doesn't make you injury prone

The fact that he never seemed to fully bounce back is most certainly a concern. Doesn't matter how common or inconsequential the initial injury seems to be. Hand injuries can be a bitch for baseball players.

This discussion of when the trade went down brings up some of the things the dude has gone through: http://www.royalsreview.com/2008/11/19/665282/coco-crisp-traded-to-royal

Anything major? Nah, not really. But he has been dinged up on a regular basis, and so it's not exactly shocking that he went down this year, too. In short, there's a reason why you're able to trade a middle reliever, whom we got off the scrap heap, for a guy who could play a GG CF.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:31 PM
I think you have that backwards. Lumsden was the throw-in in that trade.


Nope. Lumsden was supposed to be the goods, not Cortes.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:33 PM
This is the same ridiculous bile regurgitated by the same tired old stomach. Teahan has never been promoted as a cornerstone or a HoF candidate. He could be a valuable asset to a team that has established stars.

Unfortunately, Teahan is being asked to do something he's not capable of doing every day. Yet he goes out there and does give a good effort. He doesn't sulk or complain by proxy.

I don't like that he's in that position either, but let's not pretend it's his fault. Your expectations of him have far exceeded anything I ever thought he'd become.

Overall it's just frustrating as f*ck.

Begs the question, "Why?"

Why is the organization not ensuring that they're not putting players in positions to fail? Unless of course, Moore doesn't think they're asking too much of someone...

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:33 PM
Fantasy GM's. You gotta love 'em. And we know they post on the forum.

Explain to me why when your opinion get shredded like a leg in a woodchipper, you move the goalposts to Dayton Moore's competence?

The guy who thinks Mike Jacobs was a good trade knows what he's talking about uh huh.

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 03:34 PM
Nope. Lumsden was supposed to be the goods, not Cortes.
I guess I interpreted that trade backwards from the beginning. I always saw Lumsden as a guy that was close to the majors & Cortes as the better prospect.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:35 PM
I think you have that backwards. Lumsden was the throw-in in that trade.


Huh? Cortes wasn't very close to competing for a spot in the rotation, especially with his regression lately.

Ah. Okay at least we're tracking back to the trade today. I was hoping the guy would get traded and we'd land an every day ML SS.

I'm okay with losing the guy.

I think we could look back a few day/weeks on the board and see nearly every person on this forum was willing to deal ANY prospect and ANY player (save Zack) for some ML hitting and defense.

Today it happened and the tizzies begin about "We traded our best prospect". Make up your ****ing mind folks. (Not speaking of you reaper)

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:35 PM
I guess I interpreted that trade backwards from the beginning. I always saw Lumsden as a guy that was close to the majors & Cortes as the better prospect.

It's also been talked about a lot differently in the media since last year, when Cortes was the ML POTY for the Royals and Lumsden fell off the map. It's just easier to forget the nasty detail of his failure due to Cortes' surprising success.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:36 PM
The fact that he never seemed to fully bounce back is most certainly a concern. Doesn't matter how common or inconsequential the initial injury seems to be. Hand injuries can be a bitch for baseball players.

This discussion of when the trade went down brings up some of the things the dude has gone through: http://www.royalsreview.com/2008/11/19/665282/coco-crisp-traded-to-royal

Anything major? Nah, not really. But he has been dinged up on a regular basis, and so it's not exactly shocking that he went down this year, too. In short, there's a reason why you're able to trade a middle reliever, whom we got off the scrap heap, for a guy who could play a GG CF.

Like what? I'm not reading all that, but i didn't see anything from what i did and i can't search up any articles about him going on the DL except for a broken finger.

but anyway, since you have moved from "i stopped there" as if he's been on the DL 50 times to, he has not had anything major but been 'dinged up' - then the trade gets a little better, because we got someone who was able to be productive even though according to you he's always 'dinged up' who at the time of the trade had been healthy for a year plus

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:37 PM
Ah. Okay at least we're tracking back to the trade today. I was hoping the guy would get traded and we'd land an every day ML SS.

I'm okay with losing the guy.

I think we could look back a fewday/weeks on the board and see nearly every person on this forum was willing to deal ANY prospect and ANY player (save Zack) for some ML hitting and defense.

Today it happened and the tizzies begin about "We traded our best prospect". Make up your ****ing mind folks. (Not speaking of you reaper)

I'm still great with trading any and every single one of our players, save Greinke. I just want to see a more substantial return. In other words, I want to acquire someone who has star potential, not consistent/decent potential.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:38 PM
Ah. Okay at least we're tracking back to the trade today. I was hoping the guy would get traded and we'd land an every day ML SS.

I'm okay with losing the guy.

I think we could look back a few day/weeks on the board and see nearly every person on this forum was willing to deal ANY prospect and ANY player (save Zack) for some ML hitting and defense.

Today it happened and the tizzies begin about "We traded our best prospect". Make up your ****ing mind folks. (Not speaking of you reaper)

i don't have the prospectus handy, but i seriously doubt anyone had this pitcher rated as best prospect, organizationally or just among starters. if he was our best pitching prospect, it's probably only because the cupboard is so bare below the ML level.

sedated
07-10-2009, 03:38 PM
And we let raul Ibanez go 6 years ago!!!11111111

my point was actually valid.



why such an ass today? I was talking about a SS we could have had a few months ago, that would have been better and cost less than this one. And you compare it to whining about unrelated moves nearly a decade ago?

ChiTown
07-10-2009, 03:39 PM
I think you have that backwards. Lumsden was the throw-in in that trade.


Other way around, chief.

Look, I don't so much really mind this trade. If it gets TPJ outta the lineup and onto someone's else team (likely the Tee Bones). Excellent. And Cortes? He's a fucking mental midget that probably wouldn't have ever started a game for the Royals

My laughter is that we are getting, yet another, very undisciplined hitter, marginal defender and average to below baserunner. I just can't figure out what we are trying to be as a Franchise, other than suck. :p

BigMeatballDave
07-10-2009, 03:40 PM
I didn't know Dayton Moore posted on the forum...

Oh, the irony...ROFL

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:40 PM
Begs the question, "Why?"

Why is the organization not ensuring that they're not putting players in positions to fail? Unless of course, Moore doesn't think they're asking too much of someone...

That's a fair question. And my answer is: Gordon's hip was an unexpected 4 month blow. Moore has been less than his hype.

But today, we did a trade a prospect for a ML SS.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:40 PM
The guy who thinks Mike Jacobs was a good trade knows what he's talking about uh huh.

haven't you been owned enough... run along now

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:41 PM
Like what? I'm not reading all that, but i didn't see anything from what i did and i can't search up any articles about him going on the DL except for a broken finger.

but anyway, since you have moved from "i stopped there" as if he's been on the DL 50 times to, he has not had anything major but been 'dinged up' - then the trade gets a little better, because we got someone who was able to be productive even though according to you he's always 'dinged up' who at the time of the trade had been healthy for a year plus

I'm not reading it for you. Thumb, hamstring, shoulder.

You said he hadn't been injured. Incorrect.

When someone wants to construct an argument and the first thing he says is entirely false, I stop. Don't put additional words in my mouth.

Let's put this in real simple terms: Why did the Red Sox give us this unbelievable CF for one middle reliever who was almost out of baseball? Baird giving us a reach around? I don't want to hear about Crisp being "out of favor." Guys who play in the middle of the diamond and are productive can bring back a hell of a lot, favor or no.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:41 PM
That's a fair question. And my answer is: Gordon's hip was an unexpected 4 month blow. Moore has been less than his hype.

But today, we did a trade a prospect for a ML SS.

aviles's injury put some pressure on them to get infield help as well.

It should be to Moore's great credit he is not willing to tolorate a TPJ situation for the remainder of the season.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:41 PM
i don't have the prospectus handy, but i seriously doubt anyone had this pitcher rated as best prospect, organizationally or just among starters. if he was our best pitching prospect, it's probably only because the cupboard is so bare below the ML level.

Minor League POTY just a year ago. He was a highly thought of prospect.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:42 PM
haven't you been owned enough... run along now

Tell me how Coco Crisp never had injury problems before...lets see the ownage.

SCTrojan
07-10-2009, 03:44 PM
I don't see anything wrong with the deal. Don't know about this guy's glove, but the SS situation is immediately improved offensively. I hate that an upgrade means improvement to an average-ish guy, but that was the state of the SS talent they had in the organization.

You aren't going to get out of the horrible losing cycles with guys like TPJ and Hernandez getting up to bat as often as they do and sucking up roster spots. True, this guy isn't a young A-Rod, and I don't like that they've taken on a guy who isn't much for the OBP, but it's an immediate improvement to the product RIGHT NOW.

Moore has basically put someone in place who will be an everyday, decent shortstop, for 3-5 years, for a guy who may or may not be a frontline starter in five years or so. It's a calculated risk, but one I don't mind him taking, especially if it means that we've seen the last of people like TPJ.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:45 PM
That's a fair question. And my answer is: Gordon's hip was an unexpected 4 month blow. Moore has been less than his hype.

But today, we did a trade a prospect for a ML SS.

Defensively, I absolutely agree. But thinking that Gordon was going to immediately be an impact, middle-of-the-order bat was wishful thinking at best. Thus the organization was setting Teahen up for more failure from the start.

Let's see how this deal ends up. On the surface, I understand the logic. Bet's career numbers suggest he'll bring some respectability to the position. Don't know enough about his glove to comment.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:46 PM
You said he hadn't been injured. Incorrect.

When someone wants to construct an argument and the first thing he says is entirely false, I stop. Don't put additional words in my mouth.

Let's put this in real simple terms: Why did the Red Sox give us this unbelievable CF for one middle reliever who was almost out of baseball? Baird giving us a reach around? I don't want to hear about Crisp being "out of favor." Guys who play in the middle of the diamond and are productive, can bring back a hell of a lot, favor or no.

You implied he was injury prone. Simply not true. I will retract if you can produce anything but so far you have not been able to.

We got an above average ML center fielder from a team for whom he was expendable. We gave up an above average ML relief pitcher to get him. But people act like it's a terrible deal.

Moore tried to fill a significant hole and add some offense, when people in this thread are all peeing their pants about offense. Was Ramirez going to hit .300 this year? the bullpen is far down the list of the royals' problems. I didn't see anyone predict in January that he would have a torn labrum so I will accordingly assume that Moore couldn't be expected predict it either.

Great Expectations
07-10-2009, 03:46 PM
Every other player in the bigs gets that hit. Nobody else fails.

Look, that's a ridiculous thing to say. He is what he is. And just for arguments sake, he did hit a big 9th inning HR against Wood this year that brought the team within two. The game was won on DDJ's knock later in the inning.


Here are some Teahen stats:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG
None on:1/2 Out 80 96 4 31 6 0 4 4 5 25 0 0 .323
RISP w/2 Outs 49 39 12 9 1 0 0 8 5 9 1 0 .231

'08 #'s for historical significance
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG
None on:1/2 Out 149 199 5 54 10 2 5 5 17 45 0 0 .271
RISP w/2 Outs 72 78 16 14 10 2 14 6 21 0 0 .179

The HR you speak of was in a 3 run game with nobody on base and I believe 1 out. He has 9HR's, 87 hits and only 29 RBI's all while hitting in the middle of the order. The dude chokes, and he has made some poor base running decisions over the last two years, something that he is supposed to be the best on the team at.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:47 PM
Tell me how Coco Crisp never had injury problems before...lets see the ownage.

Not necessary, you kissed your own arse when you revealed thinking jacobs played first base

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:48 PM
Not necessary, you kissed your own arse when you revealed thinking jacobs played first base

He doesn't play 1st base now because when they put him there he was so fucking terrible at it they have no choice.

But obviously everything the Royals do is right, their record shows that.

OmahaChief
07-10-2009, 03:49 PM
Cortes got in the dog house first with his poor control and then he went and got arrested a week or so ago. By the time he was going to be mature enough for the bigs all of our other guys like Crow. Montgomery, Duffy and Melhville should be ready any way.

That being said not sure I like Betencourt but he is at least better at the plate than TJP.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:49 PM
I think my point was actually valid

I'm sure you did. Link me to the article that states what you posted. The Royals gave a legit offer. Hudson went to the Dodgers. ( a team that will win the NL West).

I can't blame him for that. I'm not trying to be the apologist here. But the rumors that fly with little or no real sourcing just drive me insane.

For instance: Last week Petro stated that the Royals lost Beltran because the backed off their 27 mil offer to 26. He states this 5 years after the trade.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:49 PM
I don't see anything wrong with the deal. Don't know about this guy's glove...

At one time he was thought of has having an excellent glove but i think he's cooled off there somewhat

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:49 PM
You implied he was injury prone. Simply not true. I will retract if you can produce anything but so far you have not been able to.


http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/players/180/Coco_Crisp

Look on the far right. All injuries and transactions.

KCUnited
07-10-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm in a wait and see mode. Dayton appears to have had a hard on for this guy for a while. It sounds like his range, attitude, and commitment since he's been paid are in question. I don't have a problem with who we dealt, we'll wait and see.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:50 PM
He doesn't play 1st base now because when they put him there he was so ****ing terrible at it they have no choice.

But obviously everything the Royals do is right, their record shows that.

it's obvious you don't know anything about baseball, so i'm not going to waste my time engaging you any longer...

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 03:50 PM
Here are some Teahen stats:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG
None on:1/2 Out 80 96 4 31 6 0 4 4 5 25 0 0 .323
RISP w/2 Outs 49 39 12 9 1 0 0 8 5 9 1 0 .231

'08 #'s for historical significance
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG
None on:1/2 Out 149 199 5 54 10 2 5 5 17 45 0 0 .271
RISP w/2 Outs 72 78 16 14 10 2 14 6 21 0 0 .179

The HR you speak of was in a 3 run game with nobody on base and I believe 1 out. He has 9HR's, 87 hits and only 29 RBI's all while hitting in the middle of the order. The dude chokes, and he has made some poor base running decisions over the last two years, something that he is supposed to be the best on the team at.
Jacobs doesn't choke. He is a bad player at every point in a game, pressure-situation or not. He hits mistakes and nothing else. If he gets a lot of bases empty homers its probably because pitchers may be more prone to throwing a mistake pitch in pressure-free situations.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:50 PM
The Hudson thing is the nature of being the Royals. No one is signing with KC over LA unless you are offering a ton more money.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:51 PM
Jacobs doesn't choke. He is a bad player at every point in a game, pressure-situation or not. He hits mistakes and nothing else. If he gets a lot of bases empty homers its probably because pitchers may be more prone to throwing a mistake pitch in pressure-free situations.

Don't tell wild that, he will think you don't know anything about baseball.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:52 PM
Defensively, I absolutely agree. But thinking that Gordon was going to immediately be an impact, middle-of-the-order bat was wishful thinking at best. Thus the organization was setting Teahen up for more failure from the start.

Let's see how this deal ends up. On the surface, I understand the logic. Bet's career numbers suggest he'll bring some respectability to the position. Don't know enough about his glove to comment.

The Royals were not alone in thinking Gordon would be a great player. The rays got Longoria and we got pain. But a black cloud has followed this franchise for 15 years. (two black clouds. one being mecca LMAO)

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:53 PM
And what's the reaction going to be when TPJ keeps a roster spot?

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:53 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/players/180/Coco_Crisp

Look on the far right. All injuries and transactions.

So he's had a broken thumb and a broken finger, and missed 8 games due to a leg injury. One of those was two teams ago.

I don't see anything else there that is not more than a standard deviation from the league average in terms of resting soreness or whatever for a day or two.

KCUnited
07-10-2009, 03:53 PM
And what's the reaction going to be when TPJ keeps a roster spot?
Utter belief.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:54 PM
The Hudson thing is the nature of being the Royals. No one is signing with KC over LA unless you are offering a ton more money.

Thank you. On this we agree.

SCTrojan
07-10-2009, 03:54 PM
And what's the reaction going to be when TPJ keeps a roster spot?

I may have to burn the K down. This trade automatically becomes asinine if that happens.

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 03:55 PM
Don't tell wild that, he will think you don't know anything about baseball.
I've voiced my displeasure with getting Jacobs since the thread here announcing the trade. Moore gives up a power bullpen arm to obtain a HR guy who plays miserable defense and puts up shamefully low OBPs... then has to sign a power arm for the bullpen to replace Nunez and goes with Farnsworth (despite loads of statistical indicators that say one shouldn't sing Kyle). All of that instead of just signing Adam Dunn in the first place.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:55 PM
The Royals were not alone in thinking Gordon would be a great player. The rays got Longoria and we got pain. But a black cloud has followed this franchise for 15 years. (two black clouds. one being mecca LMAO)

I don't blame them the selection, or thinking he was going to be nails in '07. I sure as **** blame them for turning a blind eye to the obvious in '09.

Gordon is what he'll always be. A competent ML player, but not a star. Generally speaking (as you know, and as the Royals damn well should know) advanced college bats don't take a long time to develop. The Longorias of the world hit the ground running.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:55 PM
Don't tell wild that, he will think you don't know anything about baseball.

I never said he was a good player, I said getting him for a middle relief pitcher is not bad when you expect his career average numbers and you see the previous state of the roster. not my favorite deal but it was not a raping

See, Reaper can actually make an argument based on facts as he sees them. Since you have no knowledge of any facts related to baseball you can only make "you suck he sucks we suck they suck" posts, or posts based on erroneous assumptions that would be cleared up by following the team you wish you talk about

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 03:56 PM
I don't blame them the draft, or thinking he was going to be nails in '07. I sure as **** blame them for turning a blind eye to the obvious in '09.

Gordon is what he'll always be. A competent ML player, but not a star. Generally speaking (as you know, and as the Royals damn well should know) advanced college bats don't take a long time to develop. The Longorias of the world hit the ground running.

I have no answer for this.

Mecca
07-10-2009, 03:56 PM
Um dude I was on the sign Dunn wagon a long time ago, the Royals screwed up huge on this one they traded for Jacobs when Dunn sat there forever to be signed.

wild1
07-10-2009, 03:57 PM
And what's the reaction going to be when TPJ keeps a roster spot?

i hope he is cleared out, but the point is not whether he's on the bench, i could care less about that, it is reducing the number of ABs they give him. he can be a backup as long as he is not playing every day.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 03:58 PM
Regarding Dunn, no one on here thought he'd sign for 10M per. We all thought he'd be around 15M per, at least.

So there is some revisionist history when talking about this deal. Many of us were still on board, even at the higher figure. Now that it was a "bargain," it's easier to say how fucking stupid the Royals are and were.

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 04:00 PM
i hope he is cleared out, but the point is not whether he's on the bench, i could care less about that, it is reducing the number of ABs they give him. he can be a backup as long as he is not playing every day.

I have no use for an offensive black hole to sit on the bench, especially when said black hole is the most overrated defensive player in the league.

If he's on the roster, Trey Edwards might be tempted to use him.

RJ
07-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Here are some Teahen stats:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG
None on:1/2 Out 80 96 4 31 6 0 4 4 5 25 0 0 .323
RISP w/2 Outs 49 39 12 9 1 0 0 8 5 9 1 0 .231

'08 #'s for historical significance
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG
None on:1/2 Out 149 199 5 54 10 2 5 5 17 45 0 0 .271
RISP w/2 Outs 72 78 16 14 10 2 14 6 21 0 0 .179

The HR you speak of was in a 3 run game with nobody on base and I believe 1 out. He has 9HR's, 87 hits and only 29 RBI's all while hitting in the middle of the order. The dude chokes, and he has made some poor base running decisions over the last two years, something that he is supposed to be the best on the team at.



For the record, the MLB average this season for BA with runners in scoring position is .241, making Teahen pretty close to a league average player in that regard.

Edit for link thingy....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?sort=&split=185&group=8&season=2009&seasonType=2&statType=batting&type=reg

58kcfan89
07-10-2009, 04:01 PM
Other way around, chief.

Look, I don't so much really mind this trade. If it gets TPJ outta the lineup and onto someone's else team (likely the Tee Bones). Excellent. And Cortes? He's a ****ing mental midget that probably wouldn't have ever started a game for the Royals

My laughter is that we are getting, yet another, very undisciplined hitter, marginal defender and average to below baserunner. I just can't figure out what we are trying to be as a Franchise, other than suck. :p

This. It's not going to be too long before a big group of younger group of pitchers will replace Cortes (Melville, Montgomery, Duffy, Crow, Hererra, etc.), so I don't think he's a huge loss.

That being said, if TPJ isn't DFA'd when Betancourt comes off the DL, that "Fire Dayton" bandwagon is gunna start looking real good.

petegz28
07-10-2009, 04:03 PM
This. It's not going to be too long before a big group of younger group of pitchers will replace Cortes (Melville, Montgomery, Duffy, Crow, Hererra, etc.), so I don't think he's a huge loss.

That being said, if TPJ isn't DFA'd when Betancourt comes off the DL, that "Fire Dayton" bandwagon is gunna start looking real good.

Pena should never start another game, imo. We have Bloomy to play backup at SS if inury to Yuni becomes the case.

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Dunn would have helped, but with a pile of money invested in Guillen i would not blame them for not wanting to eat his salary. it is horrible the contract but after this year they are out from under it.

sedated
07-10-2009, 04:04 PM
I'm sure you did. Link me to the article that states what you posted. The Royals gave a legit offer. Hudson went to the Dodgers. ( a team that will win the NL West).

I can't blame him for that. I'm not trying to be the apologist here. But the rumors that fly with little or no real sourcing just drive me insane.

For instance: Last week Petro stated that the Royals lost Beltran because the backed off their 27 mil offer to 26. He states this 5 years after the trade.

well maybe you should put more effort into stating your point rather than just acting like a complete prick.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 04:06 PM
I don't blame them the selection, or thinking he was going to be nails in '07. I sure as **** blame them for turning a blind eye to the obvious in '09.

Gordon is what he'll always be. A competent ML player, but not a star. Generally speaking (as you know, and as the Royals damn well should know) advanced college bats don't take a long time to develop. The Longorias of the world hit the ground running.

Gordon has the power to hit 35 hrs, and bat in hte .270's i'll take that. Longoria was thought is thought to bat in that range and power as well right now. He was hot this year but is coming back down to earth. Either way we def. need gordon to get to that spot but who knows... I still think gordon can do alot better than what he has been. I think everyone expected a .300 hitter, 35 hrs 100+ rbis and 20sbs out of him, myself included. He does have the talent, but can he adjust? we'll see...i sure as hell hope he can just have that power consistently, we need it.

SCTrojan
07-10-2009, 04:07 PM
i hope he is cleared out, but the point is not whether he's on the bench, i could care less about that, it is reducing the number of ABs they give him. he can be a backup as long as he is not playing every day.

I have no use for an offensive black hole to sit on the bench, especially when said black hole is the most overrated defensive player in the league.

If he's on the roster, Trey Edwards might be tempted to use him.

I gotta agree with Deez on this one. The stated reason to keep TPJ when the DFA'd Hernandez was that he was better defensively. I believe Hillman used some better lateral movement language or some such idiocy. In any case, his purpose is to be a defensive replacement for Bloomquist late, or, even worse, be a spot starter periodically.

Now you have, presumably, an everyday SS who doesn't need a defensive replacement late. You can now improve your overall team by losing TPJ and bringing up someone who can actually, I don't know, get a hit more than once every 100 at bats.

Like I said, if TPJ stays, this becomes an asinine trade.

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:07 PM
I have no use for an offensive black hole to sit on the bench, especially when said black hole is the most overrated defensive player in the league.

If he's on the roster, Trey Edwards might be tempted to use him.

well, he could be a defensive replacement, and when a team is poor in terms of people who can play the position, it would not be criminal to keep him on the roster to play one day and one inning a week and cutting him loose by the end of the year. the everyday shortstop in omaha is hitting .264. they have to plug someone in there to spell betancourt sometimes.

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:10 PM
I gotta agree with Deez on this one. The stated reason to keep TPJ when the DFA'd Hernandez was that he was better defensively. I believe Hillman used some better lateral movement language or some such idocy. In any case, his purpose is to be a defensive replacement for Bloomquist late, or, even worse, be a spot starter periodically.

Now you have, presumably, an everyday SS who doesn't need a defensive replacement late. You can now improve your overall team by losing TPJ and bringing up someone who can actually, I don't know, get a hit more than once every 100 at bats.

Like I said, if TPJ stays, this becomes an asinine trade.

whether he should be kept i can see the negative argument to, but how does TPJ staying on the roster even if he isn't playing making this trade bad? who specifically could be in that roster spot who would help the team this year?

if they give him 150 ABs in the second half, yes that is dumb.

i know seeing Pena in the lineup makes people burn with hate like he killed their grandmother but if he's not hurting the team by soaking up a lot of ABs then i dont see the damage

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 04:13 PM
Pena should be DFA or whatever the hell it is...no one will pick him up, im sure we can ask him to go to AAA....

there is no reason now for him on this roster...

Pioli Zombie
07-10-2009, 04:16 PM
royals scout board is going ape shit, they dont like how he can't hit worth crap and is an overrated fielder...

even though the last few years he's hit in hte .280's
If he can't hit and he's an overated fielder who fits in perfectly!!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:17 PM
With Freel being added before, and needing to clear space as far as I know, it makes perfect sense for Pena to be designated for assignment. I agree, just to be clear. And i think it will happen. I was just saying that the main issue is to keep him out of the batter's box.

And nothing will happen until Betancourt is ready to come to KC, he might start on rehab in the minors since he is on the DL right now

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 04:18 PM
With Freel being added before, and needing to clear space as far as I know, it makes perfect sense for Pena to be designated for assignment. I agree, just to be clear. And i think it will happen. I was just saying that the main issue is to keep him out of the batter's box.

If he is DFA, he'll clear and go to AAA....he has no MLB career anywhere else at this point. I don't get why dayton thinks he's some secret weapon that will get snatched up. Hell if he does, OMG who cares

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:18 PM
I don't get why dayton thinks he's some secret weapon that will get snatched up.

Who says that he does?

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 04:20 PM
Who says that he does?

That has to be the only rationale really...

btw Bradford doolittle isn't thrilled....we got neifi perez/angel berroa part 2


Yuniesky Betancourt: A rather harsh analysis
Can't figure this one out.This is discouraging. It really is. The press release just landed in my e-mail inbox and it really kind of took my breath away. The Royals have traded prospects Danny Cortes and Derrick Saito for Mariners shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt. Folks, this is your new shortstop. Betancourt is currently rehabbing from a hamstring injury, but when he returns, he will almost certainly become KC's regular at the most important defensive position on the field. Why is this such bad news? Well, Betancourt is 27, which means he is entering his offensive peak and should already be at his defensive peak. And, according to my system, he is the second-worst player in baseball this season.

The core statistic in my baseball evaluation program is Wins-Added. It measures a player's contributions in hitting, fielding and pitching, adjusts for context, compares to league and positional averages for a baseline and is expressed in terms of wins. Zero is average. The top player in baseball so far has been Tim Lincecum, the Giants' ace taken a few picks after Luke Hochevar a couple of drafts ago. Lincecum has 7.42 Wins-Added on the season. That means a team of otherwise average players would be expected to go 88-74 strictly because of Lincecum's presence and he's still got almost half a season to add to his total.

Zack Greinke and Albert Pujols follow Lincecum in the ratings. At the other end of the scale is Betancourt, who ranks 1,099th in baseball with -2.51 wins added. The only player worse is A's shortstop Orlando Cabrera. Betancourt ranks 1,015th of 1,023 rated defensive players. He's 795th of 807 hitters. You quite simply can't be much worse. The use of "worse" and "worst" may be a little misleading, though. As a measure of both productivity and efficiency, a player has to play a lot to accumulate a large negative number. There are players worse than Betancourt that don't see the field nearly as often. However because he is a regular, he does as much damage to his team as any player in baseball, except for Cabrera, who at least has a good track record.

Admittedly, Betancourt is having an off-season with the bat. He's hit .250/.278/.330 so far in 2009. I had him projected at .283/.309/.407. That would actually be acceptable if he were a good glove man. We'll get to that in a bit. His average has generally been .280ish and he's got a little bit of sock for a player at his position. Unfortunately, he knows the strike zone about as well as I know hieroglyphics. That is, not at all. He's walked 70 times in over 2,200 big-league plate appearances. The Royals simply can't afford to add another on-base sinkhole into their lineup, but that's exactly what they've done.

Let's get back to Betancourt's defense, which I'm sure is going to be praised in the team's quotes about this deal that will emerge later. My poor rating for his glovework is based upon the revised zone-rating statistics available at The Hardball Times. Betancourt's is the worst of any shortstop in the AL -- and it isn't even close. That may very well be due to the hamstring issue because he's generally around .800 in RZR, versus the .720 he's put up this year. But .800 is only an average RZR and paired with his horrific batting line, the end result is a losing ballplayer.

With defense, it's always a good idea to cross-index with other systems, so I did. The current gold standard in fielding analysis, in my opinion, is the plus-minus system of Baseball Info Solutions and available with a subscription to Bill James Online. In that, Betancourt ranks 33rd at his position. Last year, he ranked 35th. He's never posted a positive number in his career and has never ranked higher than 20th defensively among shortstops.

Betancourt is very much a worthy successor, and is very much similar to, the Neifi Perez, Angel Berroa, Tony Pena Jr. line of shortstops in Kansas City. To pull off the remarkable feat of extending this dynasty of ineptitude, the Royals traded a pitcher (Cortes) who was ranked as their third-best prospect by Baseball America entering the season.

Cortes wasn't having great season at NW Arkansas, but he wasn't terrible and all signs point to the 22-year-old righty becoming a member of a big-league rotation some day. The other prospect, Saito, was a lower-round draft pick by KC last year. He's a lefty and is a longshot prospect, but does fashion a respectable strikeout rate for a southpaw.

This is a head-scratcher. I don't understand -- or approve of -- this trade on any level. To me, this seems like another example of the Royals dealing for a player because of what they think he can be, rather than recognizing what he actually is.

RJ
07-10-2009, 04:20 PM
Meanwhile, the Mariners, only 3 1/2 games out of first place, trade away Betancourt and leave themselves with Ronny Cedeno as their starting SS. Cedeno is a better offensive player than TPJ, but not by much. Maybe his glove is that much better than Betancourt's?

Great Expectations
07-10-2009, 04:22 PM
For the record, the MLB average this season for BA with runners in scoring position is .241, making Teahen pretty close to a league average player in that regard.

Edit for link thingy....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?sort=&split=185&group=8&season=2009&seasonType=2&statType=batting&type=reg


Is it the MLB average to hit .090 worse w RISP and 2 outs? Alex G and Billay B hit better w/ RISP.

JASONSAUTO
07-10-2009, 04:31 PM
It's a point everyone discussed how awful Sweeney was in the field...Jacobs is even worse. There are kids in middle school that can outfield Mike Jacobs.

still sweeney has nothing to do with jacobs IMO

DrRyan
07-10-2009, 04:37 PM
This is not a good trade. Betancourt is a bottom of the barrel MLB SS. He is a light hitting mediocre(albeit it improved over his predecessor) fielding SS. Right now for reliable pitching the Royals have Greinke and Meche, period. You can't go giving away pitching prospect and expect to ever put together a winning team. I am not a fan of this trade, at all.

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:40 PM
Rob Neyer:

Royals add Betancourt, save season

July 10, 2009 5:11 PM

Wow. Just ... wow:

The Royals pulled off a major trade today when they acquired shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt from the Seattle Mariners for two minor-league pitchers.

Betancourt, 27, has been a disappointment this season for the Mariners with his batting average tumbling to .250 and producing just two homers and 22 RBIs in 63 games. He is a .279 career hitter ...

In exchange, the Royals surrendered Danny Cortes and Derrick Saito.

Cortes, 22, was the organization's minor-league pitcher of the year in 2008 but is just 6-6 with a 3.92 ERA this season at Class AA Northwest Arkansas. He joined the Royals in the 2006 trade that sent reliever Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

1. Any trade in which Yuniesky Betancourt is the centerpiece is, by definition, not "major."

2. Betancourt's career batting average is irrelevant. What's relevant is his .302 career on-base percentage.

3. Betancourt does not reach base with any frequency, nor does he reach ground balls with any frequency; according to Ultimate Zone Rating, Betancourt's been the worst shortstop in the majors this season. By a lot.

As bad as the Royals' shortstop have been, hitting-wise, Betancourt will give most of those runs back with his lousy range. Still, you could almost justify a deal like this if the Royals were trying to make a short-term improvement in the chase for a short-term reward. But that's not what is happening here. The Royals are already finished this year, and Betancourt is signed through 2012. It's apparent that the Royals -- and more specifically, Dayton Moore -- see Betancourt playing a significant role in the franchise's future.

Which should be enough to scare the socks off any living Royals fan.

This franchise's single biggest problem has for many years been lousy on-base percentages. Last winter, one of Dayton Moore's big moves was the acquisition of Mike Jacobs, who entered this season with a .318 career on-base percentage and has somehow managed to lower that by a few points. Now they've committed to who-knows-how-many years of a shortstop with a .302 on-base percentage who can't play defense.

The Royals' last two general managers have talked a great deal about on-base percentage. When it comes to action, they give up a couple of prospects to get Yuniesky Betancourt. Recently, the Royals have lost Rany Jazayerli and Joe Posnanski. They lost me a long time ago, and it's because of brain-dead moves exactly like this one.

Kansas City Royals, Yuniesky Betancourt

Sort comments by: Most Recent | First Posted

RJ
07-10-2009, 04:40 PM
Is it the MLB average to hit .090 worse w RISP and 2 outs? Alex G and Billay B hit better w/ RISP.


You lost me there. .090 worse than what?

Not being a Teahen apologist, I'm not really all that opinionated on the matter. I just think that BA with RISP is a misleading stat for a number of reasons. Besides, I'll take a guy who hits .290 all season long over a .250 hitter who hits .320 with RISP.

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 04:41 PM
This isn't the first time that Moore has been linked with Betancourt, either, if my memory serves me correctly. Betancourt, Francouer... it seems that Dayton gets fixated on certain guys for whatever reason.

RJ
07-10-2009, 04:43 PM
This franchise's single biggest problem has for many years been lousy on-base percentages. Last winter, one of Dayton Moore's big moves was the acquisition of Mike Jacobs, who entered this season with a .318 career on-base percentage and has somehow managed to lower that by a few points. Now they've committed to who-knows-how-many years of a shortstop with a .302 on-base percentage who can't play defense.




I guess Moore and Billy Beane really disagree on the importance of OBP.

Halfcan
07-10-2009, 04:44 PM
This is not a good trade. Betancourt is a bottom of the barrel MLB SS. He is a light hitting mediocre(albeit it improved over his predecessor) fielding SS. Right now for reliable pitching the Royals have Greinke and Meche, period. You can't go giving away pitching prospect and expect to ever put together a winning team. I am not a fan of this trade, at all.

put me in the who gives a fug about category.

DrRyan
07-10-2009, 04:48 PM
put me in the who gives a fug about category.

Done and done Mr. Halfcan. The point remains, this is an awful trade.

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:49 PM
This isn't the first time that Moore has been linked with Betancourt, either, if my memory serves me correctly. Betancourt, Francouer... it seems that Dayton gets fixated on certain guys for whatever reason.

he seems to try to identify guys in the minors he does not see working out, and trade them before they fall off a cliff. he also seems to like trying these low risk reclamation projects.

in his view, this player has peaked or will peak before they reach the majors so he feels that if he can trade them for a player who can play in the majors even if they are nothing special, he's adding value into the organization.

to Moore the expected value of Cortes was less than the current value of Betancourt. whether this is true, who knows.

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 04:50 PM
well maybe you should put more effort into stating your point rather than just acting like a complete prick.

Sorry Pete-dated. You're such a sensitive li'l nancy. Still drunk?

WilliamTheIrish
07-10-2009, 04:52 PM
Pena should be DFA or whatever the hell it is...no one will pick him up, im sure we can ask him to go to AAA....

there is no reason now for him on this roster...

Pena should be DFSd.

Designated for Somalia

thurman merman
07-10-2009, 04:53 PM
yuniesky betancourt is better than tony pena jr.

therefore, i support this trade.

sedated
07-10-2009, 04:54 PM
Sorry Pete-dated. You're such a sensitive li'l nancy. Still drunk?

bulletin boards need more people without real opinions, just blind shit-talking. Really

I don't care about people saying I'm wrong, or even insulting me, but at least let me know WHY, and HOW your opinion differs from mine.

but by all means, keep sitting in your ivory tower of arrogance and laugh at all the little people. its endearing.

wild1
07-10-2009, 04:54 PM
Pena should be DFSd.

Designated for Somalia

I have a sedan that could really use a washing. based on the amount i pay for extra innings to watch the royals every year... i deserve a favor. :doh!:

Halfcan
07-10-2009, 04:57 PM
Done and done Mr. Halfcan. The point remains, this is an awful trade.


I meant about the trade-your post was right on the money! :clap:

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 05:18 PM
DAYTON SAD BOO HOO: just saw on ESPNews that the Mets traded Ryan Church to the Braves for Jeff Francouer.

Ari Chi3fs
07-10-2009, 05:29 PM
How shitty would it be to hear that you got traded to the ROYALS? man, how depressing.

RJ
07-10-2009, 05:32 PM
DAYTON SAD BOO HOO: just saw on ESPNews that the Mets traded Ryan Church to the Braves for Jeff Francouer.


That's an odd trade.

Maybe just giving both players a change of scenery.

DrRyan
07-10-2009, 05:39 PM
Ah. Okay at least we're tracking back to the trade today. I was hoping the guy would get traded and we'd land an every day ML SS.

I'm okay with losing the guy.

I think we could look back a few day/weeks on the board and see nearly every person on this forum was willing to deal ANY prospect and ANY player (save Zack) for some ML hitting and defense.

Today it happened and the tizzies begin about "We traded our best prospect". Make up your ****ing mind folks. (Not speaking of you reaper)

Soooooo, Betancourt equals ML hitting and defense? I would argue that he does not do either very well at all. His range as SS is not good to put in nicely, awful to put it more accurately. His bat?? I would be ok with a .280 hitting SS if he was good-great in the field. Again, he is neither.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 05:43 PM
Apparently DM didn't want Fracoueor at all

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 05:43 PM
We'll see if a change does well for this guy...i sure as hell hope so. We improved our team for sure, but i hope that cortes doesn't pan out or this is a bad trade.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 05:46 PM
Royals acquire shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt from Mariners
By BOB DUTTON
The Kansas City Star
Yuniesky Betancourt is a Royal now.

BOSTON | If the reaction of once-and-future teammates is any indication, the Royals pulled off a steal of a trade Friday afternoon in acquiring shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle for two minor-league pitchers.

“Wow! Really?” said Willie Bloomquist, who spent the previous four years as Betancourt’s teammate. “He’s very, very talented to the point where — and I’ve told him this — he could be the best defensive shortstop in the game hands down.

“And offensively, he can swing it.”

Bloomquist offered his enthusiastic endorsement despite knowing the acquisition means he probably reverts to a utility role. He wasn’t alone, though.

“Come on…” pitcher Gil Meche said when informed of the trade. “He’s pretty darn good. He’s fun to play with. I can tell you that pitching against him _ he’s not an easy guy to pitch to. He’s got some pop.

“And as far as playing shortstop, he’s one of the best I’ve seen. He makes tough plays look really easy.”

The Royals acquired Betancourt for right-hander Dan Cortes and diminutive lefty Derrick Saito. The Mariners also agreed to pay roughly $3 million of the $8 million remaining on Betancourt’s salary through 2011.

“The bottom line is he’s an upgrade for our team today,” general manager Dayton Moore said. “And based on other opportunities that we have evaluated for the next year or two, he’s an upgrade there as well.

“He’s a very talented shortstop with a chance to make an impact with the glove and the bat. He’s somebody who has always hit a lot of doubles. His on-base percentage is something that’s lacking, but he’s a career .279 hitter.”

Betancourt was on a rehab assignment at Class AAA Tacoma when the trade occurred because of a strained left hamstring. He will shift immediately to Class AA Northwest Arkansas through the All-Star break and, barring a setback, join the Royals once the season resumes next Friday.

“For two minor-league pitchers?” said outfielder José Guillen, who spent 2007 with the Mariners. “Are you serious? How weird is that? I’m totally surprised. That’s all I can tell you. I’m shocked. That kid is pretty darn good.”

Few question Betancourt’s potential, but his recent trends are down. He is batting just .250 this season in 63 games with two homers and 22 RBIs. He entered the season with a 282 career average through four previous years.

Betancourt also carries a defensive reputation for being flashy but occasionally erratic.

“I’ll take him,” Bloomquist said. “He’s very talented. The tools and the talent are there. It’s just a matter of having someone helping him along in the right direction, whether it’s a kick in the butt or encouragement. Someone just has to help him along.

“It makes me smile that we got him. He’s going to help.”

Cortes, 22, was the organization’s minor-league pitcher of the year in 2008 but was just 6-6 with a 3.92 ERA this season at Northwest Arkansas. He joined the Royals in the 2006 trade that sent reliever Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

“We were ready to move him to Triple-A in a couple of weeks,” Moore said. “We gave up a pretty good pitcher, but we had to try to make this work to improve our middle-infield situation.”

Saito, 21, is 2-6 with a 4.15 ERA in 22 relief appearances at Class A Burlington. He was a 16th-round pick in 2008.

Betancourt’s contract includes a $6 million club option for 2012 with a $2 million buyout. The Royals are on the hook for that, but Seattle is paying the remainder of his $2 million salary this season.

The Mariners are also paying $2 million over the next two seasons when Betancourt’s salary rises to $3 million in 2010 and $4 million in 2011.

“It was important that cash considerations are involved,” Moore conceded. “That made the contract affordable for us. Our payroll is what it is. It’s not going to increase.”

The Royals jumped at the chance to acquire Betancourt for multiple reasons: They are uncertain of Mike Aviles’ future as he recovers from reconstructive-elbow surgery; they have no shortstop prospect within the organization who projects as major-league ready for at least two years; and the anticipated free-agent market is notably thin.

“Two years ago,” Moore said, “it looked like (Betancourt) was going to be a star. He was regarded as one of the up-and-coming great shortstops in the game. He just hasn’t reached that potential yet.”

To reach Bob Dutton, Royals reporter for The Star, send email to bdutton@kcstar.com.

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 05:47 PM
Apparently DM didn't want Fracoueor at all
He's been linked to Jeff at midseason for like three years now. There has to be some fire to all of that smoke.

Alas, the salary-dump dream of jettisoning Guillen to Hotlanta for Francoeur was unrealistic.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 05:48 PM
According to that article we will get $3 mill to help with the salary for betancourt

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 05:48 PM
He's been linked to Jeff at midseason for like three years now. There has to be some fire to all of that smoke.

Alas, the salary-dump dream of jettisoning Guillen to Hotlanta for Francoeur was unrealistic.

Agreed...i hear betancourt and guillen are friends, hopefully it will help.

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 05:49 PM
Royals acquire shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt from Mariners
By BOB DUTTON
The Kansas City Star
Yuniesky Betancourt is a Royal now.

BOSTON | If the reaction of once-and-future teammates is any indication, the Royals pulled off a steal of a trade Friday afternoon in acquiring shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle for two minor-league pitchers.

“Wow! Really?” said Willie Bloomquist, who spent the previous four years as Betancourt’s teammate. “He’s very, very talented to the point where — and I’ve told him this — he could be the best defensive shortstop in the game hands down.

“And offensively, he can swing it.”

Bloomquist offered his enthusiastic endorsement despite knowing the acquisition means he probably reverts to a utility role. He wasn’t alone, though.

“Come on…” pitcher Gil Meche said when informed of the trade. “He’s pretty darn good. He’s fun to play with. I can tell you that pitching against him _ he’s not an easy guy to pitch to. He’s got some pop.

“And as far as playing shortstop, he’s one of the best I’ve seen. He makes tough plays look really easy.”

The Royals acquired Betancourt for right-hander Dan Cortes and diminutive lefty Derrick Saito. The Mariners also agreed to pay roughly $3 million of the $8 million remaining on Betancourt’s salary through 2011.

“The bottom line is he’s an upgrade for our team today,” general manager Dayton Moore said. “And based on other opportunities that we have evaluated for the next year or two, he’s an upgrade there as well.

“He’s a very talented shortstop with a chance to make an impact with the glove and the bat. He’s somebody who has always hit a lot of doubles. His on-base percentage is something that’s lacking, but he’s a career .279 hitter.”

Betancourt was on a rehab assignment at Class AAA Tacoma when the trade occurred because of a strained left hamstring. He will shift immediately to Class AA Northwest Arkansas through the All-Star break and, barring a setback, join the Royals once the season resumes next Friday.

“For two minor-league pitchers?” said outfielder José Guillen, who spent 2007 with the Mariners. “Are you serious? How weird is that? I’m totally surprised. That’s all I can tell you. I’m shocked. That kid is pretty darn good.”

Few question Betancourt’s potential, but his recent trends are down. He is batting just .250 this season in 63 games with two homers and 22 RBIs. He entered the season with a 282 career average through four previous years.

Betancourt also carries a defensive reputation for being flashy but occasionally erratic.

“I’ll take him,” Bloomquist said. “He’s very talented. The tools and the talent are there. It’s just a matter of having someone helping him along in the right direction, whether it’s a kick in the butt or encouragement. Someone just has to help him along.

“It makes me smile that we got him. He’s going to help.”

Cortes, 22, was the organization’s minor-league pitcher of the year in 2008 but was just 6-6 with a 3.92 ERA this season at Northwest Arkansas. He joined the Royals in the 2006 trade that sent reliever Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

“We were ready to move him to Triple-A in a couple of weeks,” Moore said. “We gave up a pretty good pitcher, but we had to try to make this work to improve our middle-infield situation.”

Saito, 21, is 2-6 with a 4.15 ERA in 22 relief appearances at Class A Burlington. He was a 16th-round pick in 2008.

Betancourt’s contract includes a $6 million club option for 2012 with a $2 million buyout. The Royals are on the hook for that, but Seattle is paying the remainder of his $2 million salary this season.

The Mariners are also paying $2 million over the next two seasons when Betancourt’s salary rises to $3 million in 2010 and $4 million in 2011.

“It was important that cash considerations are involved,” Moore conceded. “That made the contract affordable for us. Our payroll is what it is. It’s not going to increase.”

The Royals jumped at the chance to acquire Betancourt for multiple reasons: They are uncertain of Mike Aviles’ future as he recovers from reconstructive-elbow surgery; they have no shortstop prospect within the organization who projects as major-league ready for at least two years; and the anticipated free-agent market is notably thin.

“Two years ago,” Moore said, “it looked like (Betancourt) was going to be a star. He was regarded as one of the up-and-coming great shortstops in the game. He just hasn’t reached that potential yet.”

To reach Bob Dutton, Royals reporter for The Star, send email to bdutton@kcstar.com.

And the Marinarsification of the Royals continues.

Reaper16
07-10-2009, 05:50 PM
Good to see that Seattle is eating some of Yuniesky's salary, though.

petegz28
07-10-2009, 05:54 PM
bulletin boards need more people without real opinions, just blind shit-talking. Really

I don't care about people saying I'm wrong, or even insulting me, but at least let me know WHY, and HOW your opinion differs from mine.

but by all means, keep sitting in your ivory tower of arrogance and laugh at all the little people. its endearing.

He's a douche that makes a nice addition to my iggy list.

petegz28
07-10-2009, 05:54 PM
This is not a bad trade. Not a great trade but not a bad trade.

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 05:57 PM
TPJ is on the team def. till the ASB

wild1
07-10-2009, 06:09 PM
looking at baseball prospectus they have YB's defense rated at -14 (runs below average for a shortstop) last year. his rating in that category declined for each of the previous three seasons. so, it's a bit confusing, because the players and 'baseball people' seem to like his defense, but writers and BP are not high on it.

for what it's worth, Pena was rated at -5 runs last year on defense, although he only played the equivalent of 66 games at SS. the previous year as a full-time player he was rated at 14 runs above average which is very good. last year's gold glover at SS was Michael Young who rated +20

it's the kind of move you hate to have to make. you deal a prospect for someone who is at best average at the plate. the royals are in the unenviable position of 'at best average' representing a significant upgrade at that spot in the lineup.

Chocolate Hog
07-10-2009, 06:10 PM
Royals fans are amazing. Some here are actually trying to defend this trade and 20+ years of suckage

DaWolf
07-10-2009, 06:19 PM
"His on-base percentage is something that’s lacking, but he’s a career .279 hitter.”

This is the Dayton Moore philosophy apparently...

RJ
07-10-2009, 06:28 PM
"His on-base percentage is something that’s lacking, but he’s a career .279 hitter.”

This is the Dayton Moore philosophy apparently...


I can understand accepting a low OBP from Jacobs. Hopefully the tradeoff is 30+ home runs with a player like him. But Betancourt will be lucky to produce homers in double digits. He also doesn't steal many bases and he can't bat anywhere near the top of the order.

He will, however, help to boost the team BA, which is nice. :rolleyes:

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 06:33 PM
Who needs OBP, if he coveted a free swinger like frenchy than we should all know he doesn't give a shit about walks and all that lame baseball shit

Sure-Oz
07-10-2009, 06:37 PM
Uh-oh. I think I'm going to get banned again.about 3 hours ago from TweetDeck

Rany's latest tweet. probably reacting to the trade

Valiant
07-10-2009, 06:37 PM
Hate the trade.. Especially if those guys become great pitchers.. Though a bag of shit is a upgrade over tpj..

I got bad looks when I would cheer on tpj to get his BA under a .100.. Guess I should not have been a suite over from the Glasses when yelling that.. Looks like they took my advice somewhat..

Seriously I would rather them just suck with tpj this year and drop his ass during off-season then to trade away prospects for an upgrade during a non-competition year for division title.. Well unless we are on crack cocaine and making a play for halladay..

DeezNutz
07-10-2009, 06:47 PM
Rob Neyer:

Royals add Betancourt, save season

July 10, 2009 5:11 PM

Wow. Just ... wow:

The Royals pulled off a major trade today when they acquired shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt from the Seattle Mariners for two minor-league pitchers.

Betancourt, 27, has been a disappointment this season for the Mariners with his batting average tumbling to .250 and producing just two homers and 22 RBIs in 63 games. He is a .279 career hitter ...

In exchange, the Royals surrendered Danny Cortes and Derrick Saito.

Cortes, 22, was the organization's minor-league pitcher of the year in 2008 but is just 6-6 with a 3.92 ERA this season at Class AA Northwest Arkansas. He joined the Royals in the 2006 trade that sent reliever Mike MacDougal to the White Sox.

1. Any trade in which Yuniesky Betancourt is the centerpiece is, by definition, not "major."

2. Betancourt's career batting average is irrelevant. What's relevant is his .302 career on-base percentage.

3. Betancourt does not reach base with any frequency, nor does he reach ground balls with any frequency; according to Ultimate Zone Rating, Betancourt's been the worst shortstop in the majors this season. By a lot.

As bad as the Royals' shortstop have been, hitting-wise, Betancourt will give most of those runs back with his lousy range. Still, you could almost justify a deal like this if the Royals were trying to make a short-term improvement in the chase for a short-term reward. But that's not what is happening here. The Royals are already finished this year, and Betancourt is signed through 2012. It's apparent that the Royals -- and more specifically, Dayton Moore -- see Betancourt playing a significant role in the franchise's future.

Which should be enough to scare the socks off any living Royals fan.

This franchise's single biggest problem has for many years been lousy on-base percentages. Last winter, one of Dayton Moore's big moves was the acquisition of Mike Jacobs, who entered this season with a .318 career on-base percentage and has somehow managed to lower that by a few points. Now they've committed to who-knows-how-many years of a shortstop with a .302 on-base percentage who can't play defense.

The Royals' last two general managers have talked a great deal about on-base percentage. When it comes to action, they give up a couple of prospects to get Yuniesky Betancourt. Recently, the Royals have lost Rany Jazayerli and Joe Posnanski. They lost me a long time ago, and it's because of brain-dead moves exactly like this one.

Kansas City Royals, Yuniesky Betancourt

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Nice. Didn't realize I was being so generous with my initial reaction of "meh."

Dayton Moore, ladies and gentlemen!

duncan_idaho
07-10-2009, 06:47 PM
This trade is a bad move if it is made in the offseason, when Cortes has just been named the Royals minor-league POTY.

But given the developments with Cortes this season - he still can't throw his curve for strikes, and his fastball command has fled, in addition to the off-field issues - I am OK with it. Betancourt still is a young, cheap SS with good upside - both as a hitter and a defender.