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Tribal Warfare
07-18-2009, 10:41 PM
Is Cassel the one player the Chiefs have sought all these years? (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/football/story/1332698.html)
By BILL REITER
The Kansas City Star

The last true franchise quarterback to wear a Kansas City Chiefs jersey is already here, sitting where important men sit: in a nearly enclosed, oversized booth, watching waitresses with pleasant smiles hum by and men in business suits strain to catch his words.

“They’ve been unable to draft or develop a quarterback,” Len Dawson says. “They’ve tried. They’ve just been unable.”

This is how far back you have to look to catch a glimpse of what Matt Cassel might become: All the way to the 1960s and Lenny The Cool, he of the Super Bowl ring, the bronzed-tan glow of the good life, the loving looks of folks who remember winning ways and the special place you get to inhabit if you earn the mantle of franchise quarterback.

A franchise quarterback also happens to be the one ingredient any general manager hoping to play alchemist needs if he’s to turn a 2-14 embarrassment into a winning organization.

“How important are franchise quarterbacks? You aren’t successful without one!” Dick Vermeil says. “You get by, but you don’t get better. You don’t win big.”

Former Chiefs center Tim Grunhard agrees: “That’s what young people are looking for. They want a hero, a hero they can believe in, a guy they can go in the backyard and when they play football say, ‘I’m Matt Cassel.’ We’ve been told time and time again that these guys were going to come in, be the guy, be the face, be the resurrection of the Kansas City Chiefs. And it’s never worked. Never.”

Dawson was the last player to have come in, been the man, resurrected the franchise and brought home the trophy. Joe Montana was very good at the end of his career, and Trent Green put in five very fine — at times fantastic — full seasons. But Montana could only take the Chiefs to the AFC Championship, and Green led his team to only two winning seasons.

But those names don’t matter anymore. One does: Matt Cassel, he of one good season in New England, a college career without a single start and a contract reportedly worth $63 million, designating him the guy who must lead this town’s football team until at least 2014.

“He hit the mother lode, huh?” Dawson says with a raised eyebrow and quick smirk.

The old legend nods his head and lets his blue eyes go back in time to when he — like Cassel — hovered between obscurity and greatness. The smirk fades. Something closer to a man knowing how much luck plays a part in life emerges in its place.

“You’ve got to earn some respect,” he says. “You’ve got to have some talent around you. You have to have some ability. You’ve got to have the chance to play.”

Dawson wants to say how his story offers hope that Matt Cassel can be the real deal, but first we must acknowledge that the Chiefs’ history since Dawson requires — to say the least — some cautious optimism.

Let’s start there.

•••

Jack Steadman laughs with the rueful insight of a man who’s made his choices and learned to live with them.

He had just been asked the question that’s haunted this team off and on — mostly on — since Dawson retired in 1975: What went wrong with finding the next long-term Chiefs quarterback?

“That’s been our fault, frankly, since our Super Bowl in 1970,” Steadman says. “We just never developed a franchise quarterback. And that has been a major concern of mine with our scouting staff and coaching staffs ever since.”

Those years cover some rather unpleasant ground, a space of history comprised of players such as Mike Livingston, Tony Adams, Bill Kenney and Steve Fuller.

“This is interesting for me, because Marv Levy and I really argued about that,” Steadman says. “He just didn’t think that the quarterback position was as important as other positions. But the interesting thing is: Once he got to Buffalo, he had a franchise quarterback who went to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.”

That and four Super Bowl appearances.

Which gets us to 1983, a place that — if you were mapping out Matt Cassel’s road to $63 million and a Kansas City-area ZIP code — may well mark the starting point.

Ronald Reagan was president, “Billie Jean” had just slipped from the Billboard 100 No. 1 spot, and “Beat It” would soon take its place. Dan Marino and Jim Kelly were still available when the Chiefs made their selection with the No. 7 overall pick in the NFL draft.

This was to be John Mackovic’s crowning moment, the birth of his empire. He had been brought in to develop a franchise quarterback, to give the Kansas City Chiefs a Lenny Dawson redux, and the greatest QB draft in history happened to pop up in his first year as head coach.

One little problem.

“Our scouts were really, really high on Marino, but John decided he wanted to meet with the players and find out which was going to be his franchise quarterback,” Steadman says. “So he went to meet with Marino and (Todd) Blackledge in Pennsylvania. And Marino stiffed him. Marino didn’t show.”

This is where a quarterback’s chutzpah — that chip on the shoulder that stars are supposed to have — might have altered the arc of his career and the history of the franchise that didn’t choose him.

“That made John mad,” Steadman says. “So then he went the next day to meet with Blackledge, and Blackledge showed up with a coat and tie on. And that’s who we selected.” Stedman again laughs ruefully. “And Blackledge just didn’t develop as the franchise quarterback.”

So as Kelly, drafted at No. 14, was helping Levy dominate his division, and as Marino, drafted No. 27, began one of the finest careers in football history, the Chiefs became a sometimes good, never Super Bowl-capable, often rudderless franchise with a knack for filling stadiums and making do with three kinds of quarterbacks:

•The first-round picks who just didn’t work out: Fuller and Blackledge and, later and deeper in the draft, Brodie Croyle.

•The older quarterbacks with a strong pedigree — and some winning ways — but not enough years left to plan an organization around for the long term or win a Super Bowl in the short term: Steve DeBerg, Montana, Green.

•The hot free-agents — the next big things — who, it turned out, weren’t: Think Elvis Grbac and the brief Warren Moon experiment.

What the Chiefs didn’t have, ever, was that guy to build around deep into the future.

•••

Until, perhaps, now.

“It’s so important to have a person who your younger guys can say, ‘This is my guy I’ll have around for four or five years,’ ” Grunhard says. “And for the older guys, it shows a commitment to a guy the organization is behind. On both fronts, for the young and old guys, it sets a precedent. I’m hoping Matt can take that responsibility and be that guy for a long time, like Lenny was.”

There’s an interesting comparison between Dawson and Cassel, one Dawson himself suggested.

“For any of us, you’ve got to get your chance,” he says.

Both men saw limited action in their first professional seasons: Dawson threw the ball four times; Cassel, 24.

Dawson’s next two years saw him throw the ball only 13 times. For Cassel, years two and three produced 15 pass attempts.

Both men languished in obscurity, known more for the men they played behind than their own play. And both men shared the prospect of sudden opportunity meeting a sign of great faith.

For Dawson, who was nearly out of football, it came in the form of a last-ditch effort with the Dallas Chiefs and an injury to Cotton Davidson, whom Lamar Hunt then traded away — the first and only trade the former owner made.

For Cassel, it was Tom Brady going down, having a breakout season and having millions of dollars heaped onto him.

“I had to have an opportunity to play, and Cotton got hurt — kind of like Brady,” Dawson says. “If the guy’s winning and playing well, then you don’t make changes for the sake of changes. But (the Chiefs) were looking for a quarterback and knew the skills I had.”

That’s because Hank Stram — a man who had coached Dawson in college, who had seen him prepare and play — was the team’s head coach. And Cassel, off his breakout season, had a similar patron in Scott Pioli.

“If Brady hadn’t gotten hurt,” Dawson says, “(Cassel) still wouldn’t be playing.”

The old legend smiles. Yes, he knows a thing or two about being underestimated — and about seizing that one chance, that one last hope, after you thought it would never arrive.

Is Cassel the answer, finally, to the Kansas City Chiefs’ quarterback riddle?

Dawson thinks just maybe.

“Apparently, the preparation is there, from what I understand,” Dawson says. “He is prepared. And it starts with that, that he understands what they’re trying to accomplish. After that, leadership has to come with performance. On that, we’re going to find out.”

Valiant
07-18-2009, 10:51 PM
They better hope so..

Chocolate Hog
07-18-2009, 11:36 PM
He only needs to put up Trent Green #s

DaWolf
07-19-2009, 01:20 AM
I didn't realize Marino stiffed Mackovic...

jAZ
07-19-2009, 01:42 AM
•The older quarterbacks with a strong pedigree — and some winning ways — but not enough years left to plan an organization around for the long term or win a Super Bowl in the short term: Steve DeBerg, Montana, Green.

•The hot free-agents — the next big things — who, it turned out, weren’t: Think Elvis Grbac and the brief Warren Moon experiment.


How did Warren Moon end up in that second "list"?

KC Tattoo
07-19-2009, 01:54 AM
The Chiefs havn't tried enough to draft and develop our own QB. under Carl Peckerson we allways had rehashed old QBs that never grew with the team. Trent Green was the best we had but he got old too. Yea we tried Matt Blundin and Brodie Croyle, two out of twenty years of Carl that we tried to draft and develope our own QB. That is not trying.

I hope that Matt Cassel works out for us that is all.

Count Zarth
07-19-2009, 01:57 AM
Does Len Dawson ever say anything of substance anymore?

Seriously.

J Diddy
07-19-2009, 02:06 AM
Does Len Dawson ever say anything of substance anymore?

Seriously.

What are you talking about?:shake:

Count Zarth
07-19-2009, 02:08 AM
What are you talking about?:shake:

This article.

All Len Dawson does is spew captain obvious statements.

He's been doing it for awhile.

J Diddy
07-19-2009, 02:57 AM
This article.

All Len Dawson does is spew captain obvious statements.

He's been doing it for awhile.

what i took from this
That there was a lot of similarities to his situation then and cassell's now. That just because lightening struck once doesn't mean it will happen again.

I'm sure he's being guarded about what he will say, but come on and listen to him game time.

the Talking Can
07-19-2009, 05:03 AM
this makes me want to cry turds....this franchise has been run by the dumbest pieces of shit in human history


“Our scouts were really, really high on Marino, but John decided he wanted to meet with the players and find out which was going to be his franchise quarterback,” Steadman says. “So he went to meet with Marino and (Todd) Blackledge in Pennsylvania. And Marino stiffed him. Marino didn’t show.”

This is where a quarterback’s chutzpah — that chip on the shoulder that stars are supposed to have — might have altered the arc of his career and the history of the franchise that didn’t choose him.

“That made John mad,” Steadman says. “So then he went the next day to meet with Blackledge, and Blackledge showed up with a coat and tie on. And that’s who we selected.” Stedman again laughs ruefully.

milkman
07-19-2009, 05:36 AM
Dallas Chiefs?

Uncle_Ted
07-19-2009, 07:37 AM
this makes me want to cry turds....this franchise has been run by the dumbest pieces of shit in human history

Marino was selected at #27 ... hindsight is always 20/20.

If any potential 1st round draft pick today did to the Chiefs what Marino did the entire NFL (as well as the Planet) would be in an uproar about what an arrogant douchebag he was; how he was an idiot for affecting his draft status, losing millions in guaranteed money. Conversely, people would be talking about the maturity and class of the "coat and tie" guy, how he's "Chiefs" material, how he earned respect by showing respect, blah blah blah ...

cdcox
07-19-2009, 07:51 AM
Dallas Chiefs?

Stole my post. I guess newspapers can't afford editors any longer.

Baby Lee
07-19-2009, 07:54 AM
this makes me want to cry turds....this franchise has been run by the dumbest pieces of shit in human history

Though the blowoff is cited, the rumors of rampant nose candy use had to play in there too, as with all other teams except Miami [and Washington, who didn't get a chance to pass].

The stupifying one is Rooney with the Steelers who told the FO he wanted Marino [a Penn local], but made the mistake of telling them the newspaper guys suggested it.

Could you imagine King Carl going into Herm's or Gun's or Marty's FO and saying Fatlock had turned him on to a first round selection?

cdcox
07-19-2009, 08:01 AM
There were also drug rumors surrounding Marino before he was drafted. It really hurt his draft status. Going into that draft, Marino was second only to Elway in terms of raw talent, but the character issues surrounding Marino made people consider him to be a risky choice. Blackledge was considered to be big, tough, a leader, and a winner. If he would have panned out, he would have been a Roethlisberger type -- win ugly.

the Talking Can
07-19-2009, 08:01 AM
Though the blowoff is cited, the rumors of rampant nose candy use had to play in there too, as with all other teams except Miami [and Washington, who didn't get a chance to pass].

The stupifying one is Rooney with the Steelers who told the FO he wanted Marino [a Penn local], but made the mistake of telling them the newspaper guys suggested it.

Could you imagine King Carl going into Herm's or Gun's or Marty's FO and saying Fatlock had turned him on to a first round selection?

didn't know about the coke....

i admit it all seems more clear cut in retrospect, but hearing that we picked the loser for non-football reasons pisses me off....."he didn't use a salad fork! draft Ryan Leaf!"

RNR
07-19-2009, 08:49 AM
I always get a chuckle when people say "Lenny the cool" Len Dawson faced "the cool" in a Championship one time and his name was Bart Starr. Why people use Bart Starr's nickname on Dawson is beyond me. Not a slam on Dawson it is just strange.

jlscorpio
07-19-2009, 08:54 AM
I always get a chuckle when people say "Lenny the cool" Len Dawson faced "the cool" in a Championship one time and his name was Bart Starr. Why people use Bart Starr's nickname on Dawson is beyond me. Not a slam on Dawson it is just strange.


I've never heard Bart Starr referred to as "The Cool"

RNR
07-19-2009, 09:00 AM
I've never heard Bart Starr referred to as "The Cool"

LMAO you must be young. Starr was well known as Bart the cool.

milkman
07-19-2009, 09:03 AM
LMAO you must be young. Starr was well know as Bart the cool.

While true, but be honest, the name never really stuck with Starr over the years the way it has with Lenny.

Starr had it, but Lenny has owned it.

RNR
07-19-2009, 09:12 AM
While true, but be honest, the name never really stuck with Starr over the years the way it has with Lenny.

Starr had it, but Lenny has owned it.

I have always thought of him as Bart the cool. NFL films refers to him the same, it is listed in his bio. It was because of his unflappable demeanor on the field. To Chief fans Dawson may own it but IMO I think most other fans would disagree. I guess it is like the tomahawk chop. Chief fans think of it as theirs most everyone else FSU comes to mind.

milkman
07-19-2009, 09:18 AM
I have always thought of him as Bart the cool. NFL films refers to him the same, it is listed in his bio. It was because of his unflappable demeanor on the field. To Chief fans Dawson may own it but IMO I think most other fans would disagree. I guess it is like the tomahawk chop. Chief fans think of it as theirs most everyone else FSU comes to mind.

NFL films might call Starr that, but they are the only ones who have for over 30 years.

I think if you were to go to other team sites and ask "Who is known as 'The Cool'?", the majority would answer Lenny Dawson.

cdcox
07-19-2009, 09:20 AM
Google says:

Results 1 - 8 of 8 for "bart the cool". (0.23 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 304 for "lenny the cool". (0.12 seconds)


I thought there would be a lot more than 304 hits for "Lenny the Cool"

RNR
07-19-2009, 09:27 AM
NFL films might call Starr that, but they are the only ones who have for over 30 years.

I think if you were to go to other team sites and ask "Who is known as 'The Cool'?", the majority would answer Lenny Dawson.

That would be interesting, it would have to be older fans who were around when they played. Heck if you asked most of the younger fans what QB was known as the Snake they would answer Jake Plummer. I think you may be surprised how many people think of Starr as the cool. I am certain 100% of Chief fans would say Dawson. It was Starr's nickname first and it would be neat to have a poll on ESPN.com asking the question.

RNR
07-19-2009, 09:35 AM
Google says:

Results 1 - 8 of 8 for "bart the cool". (0.23 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 304 for "lenny the cool". (0.12 seconds)


I thought there would be a lot more than 304 hits for "Lenny the Cool"

The search I did got Bart Simpson and Lenny Kravitz
:spock:

Chiefshrink
07-19-2009, 09:45 AM
I didn't realize Marino stiffed Mackovic...

It's obvious Marino didn't want to come to KC. You can't blame Mac, especially when Marino had a mediocre off Sr. yr with Cocaine drug use rumors flying around and then to get stiffed at a job interview? Only then to see Blackledge with a great Sr. yr show up in suit and tie. Don't blame Mac. I think most of us presented with these same circumstances would have made the same decision.:thumb:

But as the ol saying goes hindsight is always 20/20.:doh!:

RNR
07-19-2009, 09:49 AM
It's obvious Marino didn't want to come to KC. You can't blame Mac, especially when Marino had a mediocre off Sr. yr with Cocaine drug use rumors flying around and then to get stiffed at a job interview? Only then to see Blackledge with a great Sr. yr show up in suit and tie. Don't blame Mac. I think most of us presented with these same circumstances would have made the same decision.:thumb:

But as the ol saying goes hindsight is always 20/20.:doh!:

Marino went 24th the Chiefs were not the only team to miss that pick

Mr. Krab
07-19-2009, 09:50 AM
I didn't realize Marino stiffed Mackovic...
Me either.

Chiefshrink
07-19-2009, 09:52 AM
Marino went 24th the Chiefs were not the only team to miss that pick

Didn't say they were the only team to miss the pick.

Chiefshrink
07-19-2009, 09:55 AM
Marino went 24th the Chiefs were not the only team to miss that pick

Just pointing out for the circumstances at the time that "most" of us(Chief fans didn't know)that we can't blame Mac for that one 'now'.

RNR
07-19-2009, 10:02 AM
Didn't say they were the only team to miss the pick.

It was not intended to call you out. The draft is a crap shoot and there were several teams who thought highly of Blackledge also.

Tuckdaddy
07-19-2009, 01:24 PM
It was not intended to call you out. The draft is a crap shoot and there were several teams who thought highly of Blackledge also.

Todd was thought to be better than Dan. It was very close and you can't fault the Chiefs for taking Todd, it wasn't reach at all.

Raised On Riots
07-19-2009, 01:40 PM
Damn that was a good article.

Damnit Steadman!:cuss:

DTLB58
07-19-2009, 02:16 PM
I enjoyed this article. :clap:

JD10367
07-19-2009, 02:32 PM
Todd was thought to be better than Dan. It was very close and you can't fault the Chiefs for taking Todd, it wasn't reach at all.

Picking quarterbacks is not easy. I know they're the two easy ones to illustrate, but Drew Bledsoe/Rick Mirer and Peyton Manning/Ryan Leaf pretty much sum it up. The more I think about the draft, the more I think draft positioning is overrated.

Let's just go back to 2005 (since it takes a few years to properly analyze a draft pick) and look at the top ten for 2005-2000:

2005

Round Pick Player Name Team Position College
1 1 1 Alex D. Smith 49ers QB Utah
2 2 Ronnie Brown Dolphins RB Auburn
3 3 Braylon Edwards Browns WR Michigan
4 4 Cedric Benson Bears RB Texas
5 5 Cadillac Williams Buccaneers RB Auburn
6 6 Pacman Jones Titans DB West Virginia
7 7 Troy Williamson Vikings WR South Carolina
8 8 Antrel Rolle Cardinals DB Miami (FL)
9 9 Carlos Rogers Redskins DB Auburn
10 10 Mike Williams Lions WR USC

2004

Round Pick Player Name Team Position College
1 1 1 Eli Manning Chargers QB Mississippi
2 2 Robert Gallery Raiders T Iowa
3 3 Larry Fitzgerald Cardinals WR Pittsburgh
4 4 Philip Rivers Giants QB North Carolina State
5 5 Sean Taylor Redskins DB Miami (FL)
6 6 Kellen Winslow Jr Browns TE Miami (FL)
7 7 Roy Williams Lions WR Texas
8 8 DeAngelo Hall Falcons DB Virginia Tech
9 9 Reggie Williams Jaguars WR Washington
10 10 Dunta Robinson Texans DB South Carolina

2003

Round Pick Player Name Team Position College
1 1 1 Carson Palmer Bengals QB USC
2 2 Charles Rogers Lions WR Michigan State
3 3 Andre Johnson Texans WR Miami (FL)
4 4 Dewayne Robertson Jets DT Kentucky
5 5 Terence Newman Cowboys DB Kansas State
6 6 Johnathan Sullivan Saints DT Georgia
7 7 Byron Leftwich Jaguars QB Marshall
8 8 Jordan Gross Panthers T Utah
9 9 Kevin Williams Vikings DE Oklahoma State
10 10 Terrell Suggs Ravens DE Arizona State

2002

Round Pick Player Name Team Position College
1 1 1 David Carr Texans QB Fresno State
2 2 Julius Peppers Panthers DE North Carolina
3 3 Joey Harrington Lions QB Oregon
4 4 Mike Williams Bills T Texas
5 5 Quentin Jammer Chargers DB Texas
6 6 Ryan Sims Chiefs DT North Carolina
7 7 Bryant McKinnie Vikings T Miami (FL)
8 8 Roy Williams Cowboys DB Oklahoma
9 9 John Henderson Jaguars DT Tennessee
10 10 Levi Jones Bengals T Arizona State

2001

Round Pick Player Name Team Position College
1 1 1 Michael Vick Falcons QB Virginia Tech
2 2 Leonard Davis Cardinals T Texas
3 3 Gerard Warren Browns DT Florida
4 4 Justin Smith Bengals DE Missouri
5 5 LaDainian Tomlinson Chargers RB Texas Christian
6 6 Richard Seymour Patriots DT Georgia
7 7 Andre Carter 49ers DE California
8 8 David Terrell Bears WR Michigan
9 9 Koren Robinson Seahawks WR North Carolina State
10 10 Jamal Reynolds Packers DE Florida State

2000

Round Pick Player Name Team Position College
1 1 1 Courtney Brown Browns DE Penn State
2 2 LaVar Arrington Redskins LB Penn State
3 3 Chris Samuels Redskins T Alabama
4 4 Peter Warrick Bengals WR Florida State
5 5 Jamal Lewis Ravens RB Tennessee
6 6 Corey Simon Eagles DT Florida State
7 7 Thomas Jones Cardinals RB Virginia
8 8 Plaxico Burress Steelers WR Michigan State
9 9 Brian Urlacher Bears LB New Mexico
10 10 Travis Taylor Ravens WR Florida

Now, you'd think that, top ten, you're pretty safe. And obviously there are a lot of very solid players in there. But there are also a few medocrities and a couple of outright crappolas. These are multimillion-dollar franchises with dozens of highly intelligent and knowledgeable staffers with years of football experience, and they STILL make some picks that end up looking hilariously bad.

KCChiefsFan88
07-19-2009, 11:57 PM
This article doesn't give Trent Green enough credit. Sure he may not have been a "franchise QB", but he holds many of the Chiefs' all time passing statistical records and orchestrated the most productive offenses in franchise history.

chief52
07-20-2009, 12:11 AM
This article doesn't give Trent Green enough credit. Sure he may not have been a "franchise QB", but he holds many of the Chiefs' all time passing statistical records and orchestrated the most productive offenses in franchise history.

Trent Green could have taken the Chiefs to the Super Bowl if he had the cast. He raised the Chiefs. But he could only do so much. Not sure why he gets so little respect.

I am still a Bill Kenney fan. Not saying he was the answer, but he sure was not the problem. Surround him and the Chiefs would have had a hell of a team.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 12:18 AM
This article doesn't give Trent Green enough credit. Sure he may not have been a "franchise QB", but he holds many of the Chiefs' all time passing statistical records and orchestrated the most productive offenses in franchise history.

But that's kind of the point. I realize Green wasn't Joe"2 seasons and out"Montana, but he wasn't the inception or core that the team was built around for a decade either.

I'll concede that Matt Cassel's situation is pretty ideal in terms of being a guy who's already put his developmental "book time" on the bench behind him and because we need someone who can perform right away, and because he makes our GM and HC feel comfortable, but I do so because I'm excited about what and who will be coming up behind him when it's time to pass the torch along.
Hopefully, when the time is right, the Chiefs will take the plunge again in round one, hopefully in the top 10 if the talent and price is right, and the end result is:

We FINALLY start doing this right and giving the position the respect it deserves by beginning a long train of DEVELOPING our talent at the position IN-HOUSE.

Rausch
07-20-2009, 12:29 AM
This shit is just stupid...

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 12:30 AM
This shit is just stupid...

Care to elaborate?

Rausch
07-20-2009, 12:33 AM
We FINALLY start doing this right and giving the position the respect it deserves by beginning a long train of DEVELOPING our talent at the position IN-HOUSE.

EXACTLY!

We change policy! No more signing over-aged and over-priced scrubs! No more wasted draft picks! No more trading for back up QB's who produce on insanely talented offenses for a short ti-.......

Wait...

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 12:42 AM
EXACTLY!

We change policy! No more signing over-aged and over-priced scrubs! No more wasted draft picks! No more trading for back up QB's who produce on insanely talented offenses for a short ti-.......

Wait...

You have to start somewhere, man.

Look, there's no use in going over my personal feelings regarding the QB move we made this year; the deal is done.

I'm not saying Cassel is a sure deal but if he does excel, it was the right deal not because he's "The Man"( whoo-hoo! do a homer dipshit dance ), but because his age gives us at least 5 years of solid play and the opportunity to bring a young pick in probably in the 2011 draft and start developing him the "Chiefs Way" instead of just grasping for straws like Carl and Marty.

Rausch
07-20-2009, 12:50 AM
You have to start somewhere, man.

Exactly.

But we're starting right where every fucking KC HC has for the last 15 years.

Your B/U looked good, gimme' somma' 'dat...


You have to start somewhere, man.

I'm not saying Cassel is a sure deal but if he does excel, it was the right deal not because he's "The Man."[/QUOTE]

Well fuck yeah!

And if Deberg (I like him, but it makes a point,) Green, Girlbac, Gannon, or Bono ever won us $#it perhaps you'd have a point. But they haven't. In fact, you can play this game all day.

Name me the QB traded away that later won a SB for that team.

2 Guys. 2 Guys did it. And Lenny Dawson doesn't count because he was fucking 'leased" to us...

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 12:53 AM
"The Chiefs Way".

I have to expound upon this for a moment.

New England roster maintenance, plus

Haley vertical air game, plus

Old School Steeler "win in the trenches":

Fuck me that's awesome!

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:05 AM
Exactly.

But we're starting right where every fucking KC HC has for the last 15 years.

Your B/U looked good, gimme' somma' 'dat...




I'm not saying Cassel is a sure deal but if he does excel, it was the right deal not because he's "The Man."

Well fuck yeah!

And if Deberg (I like him, but it makes a point,) Green, Girlbac, Gannon, or Bono ever won us $#it perhaps you'd have a point. But they haven't. In fact, you can play this game all day.

Name me the QB traded away that later won a SB for that team.

2 Guys. 2 Guys did it. And Lenny Dawson doesn't count because he was fucking 'leased" to us...

(Jesus, I can't believe I'm defending this)...

I see your point crystal clear. I do. But it's not a situation where Carl doesn't really know jack-shit about who he's bringing in.

The history between player and GM is there. It was there everyday. No one outside of the Pats franchise knows Cassel better than Pioli.
There's a risk of course, there always is.

But I can't deny that for where we are as a team, Cassel's "QB Demographic" as it were is ideal for our immediate AND long-term needs as it relates to building an ongoing, talent-laden roster with an eye to the future at the QB position.

Rausch
07-20-2009, 01:08 AM
"The Chiefs Way".

I have to expound upon this for a moment.

New England roster maintenance, plus

Haley vertical air game, plus

Old School Steeler "win in the trenches":

**** me that's awesome!

We'll have a new OC next year. Hate to say it, I'm a huge Chan fan, but he'll be gone.

You'd think it'd be a perfect match but Chan and the Chin had a plan. I don't know this for fact, I have not read this, I had a former player tell me that the Chin (not Gailey) would ask the percentage of success for a run or pass, for this play or that play, and when it was highly in favor of one way (say 90+%) that's when he'd ask Chan for some "trickeration" they'd worked on.

They'd set some silly shit up (that Chan had worked on) and it worked nearly every fucking time. Cowher has had 3 different OC's that he did that $#it under.

The idea was once the percentages dicatated that we do X, for sure, throw in your gimmic bullshit...And it always worked...

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:15 AM
We'll have a new OC next year. Hate to say it, I'm a huge Chan fan, but he'll be gone.

You'd think it'd be a perfect match but Chan and the Chin had a plan. I don't know this for fact, I have not read this, I had a former player tell me that the Chin (not Gailey) would ask the percentage of success for a run or pass, for this play or that play, and when it was highly in favor of one way (say 90+%) that's when he'd ask Chan for some "trickeration" they'd worked on.

They'd set some silly shit up (that Chan had worked on) and it worked nearly every fucking time. Cowher has had 3 different OC's that he did that $#it under.

The idea was once the percentages dicatated that we do X, for sure, throw in your gimmic bullshit...And it always worked...

He's an inventive ol' SOB! I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say that he saved Thigpen's bacon last year.
I like somebody with that kind of a mind being involved with this team, I think it would be a shame to let him go just on political reaons, but he might yet again prove his worth this year even more so than last year.

If he does, I think he'll be asked to stay.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:17 AM
ADDENDUM:

He's got to work that kind of "magic" on the ground game too. We have GOT to get that aspect of the offense producing again.

Rausch
07-20-2009, 01:18 AM
(Jesus, I can't believe I'm defending this)...

I see your point crystal clear. I do. But it's not a situation where Carl doesn't really know jack-shit about who he's bringing in.

No, it's about Pioli being an even greater ego-maniac than Carl starting off and is doing the EXACT SAME SHIT.

OLDER VETS. BACK UP QB'S. Scrubs you know and feel comfortable with.

Now, clearly the pay scale and emphasis of the team will be different. Oddly enough we'll be even tighter than Peterson. Yeah.

Look, you can play this "I'm bringing in people I know" game all day long but unless those people you know are Favre, or Steve Young, or even someone like Mr. Trick Play Doug Floutie it's all still a huge gamble...

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:22 AM
No, it's about Pioli being an even greater ego-maniac than Carl starting off and is doing the EXACT SAME SHIT.

OLDER VETS. BACK UP QB'S. Scrubs you know and feel comfortable with.

Now, clearly the pay scale and emphasis of the team will be different. Oddly enough we'll be even tighter than Peterson. Yeah.

Look, you can play this "I'm bringing in people I know" game all day long but unless those people you know are Favre, or Steve Young, or even someone like Mr. Trick Play Doug Floutie it's all still a huge gamble...

ROFL:clap:

And this is why I hope and pray that the "Haley Factor" creates the balance as well as a greater overall ambition and drive to this new venture we're undertaking.

Jethopper
07-20-2009, 01:39 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11951041

Jay Cutler drafted after Cassel.
Brandon Marshall drafted after Bowe.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:51 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11951041

Jay Cutler drafted after Cassel.
Brandon Marshall drafted after Bowe.

I watched the video. Nice to hear Bowe is projected to hit the 3rd year blast-off.

Rausch
07-20-2009, 01:52 AM
ROFL:clap:

And this is why I hope and pray that the "Haley Factor" creates the balance as well as a greater overall ambition and drive to this new venture we're undertaking.

I fucking hope to God you're kidding.

Haley is a fucking joke of a HC.

Flat out. He has absolutely no people skills and a Parcells temper.

He knows football, but he's dogshit with players. Every single talented player he's worked with he's had a huge blowup with.

Who does that happen to?

WHo?

He's exactly like Herm: he's easy to read and understand.

For clearly different reasons, but Haley is a fucking hothead that has a history of being a fucking hothead. That is not a GENERAL. That is not your leader. Your guidance.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:54 AM
I fucking hope to God you're kidding.

Haley is a fucking joke of a HC.

Flat out. He has absolutely no people skills and a Parcells temper.

He knows football, but he's dogshit with players. Every single talented player he's worked with he's had a huge blowup with.

Who does that happen to?

WHo?

He's exactly like Herm: he's easy to read and understand.

For clearly different reasons, but Haley is a fucking hothead that has a history of being a fucking hothead. That is not a GENERAL. That is not your leader. Your guidance.

Jesus H. Christ; are you fucking plowed this evening or what?

Rausch
07-20-2009, 02:03 AM
Jesus H. Christ; are you ****ing plowed this evening or what?

Which evening would I not be plowed?

He's your classic DICK.

He knows the game, he's qualified, but he's just $#it with people. Not in the cool way, or the Parcells "I'm-a-dick-but-we'll-win-so-deal" kind of way, he's just fuck-all abrasive and rude.

As a person.

I'm 1-1. I thought DV would fail and thought Herm wouldn't. Here I think Haley will fail and Pioli won't.

Odd, but I don't think he'll be here long...

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 02:06 AM
Which evening would I not be plowed?

He's your classic DICK.

He knows the game, he's qualified, but he's just $#it with people. Not in the cool way, or the Parcells "I'm-a-dick-but-we'll-win-so-deal" kind of way, he's just fuck-all abrasive and rude.

As a person.

I'm 1-1. I thought DV would fail and thought Herm wouldn't. Here I think Haley will fail and Pioli won't.

Odd, but I don't think he'll be here long...

ROFL Honesty. I can appreciate that.

We'll see.

Jethopper
07-20-2009, 03:11 AM
I ****ing hope to God you're kidding.

Haley is a ****ing joke of a HC.

Flat out. He has absolutely no people skills and a Parcells temper.

He knows football, but he's dogshit with players. Every single talented player he's worked with he's had a huge blowup with.

Who does that happen to?

WHo?

He's exactly like Herm: he's easy to read and understand.

For clearly different reasons, but Haley is a ****ing hothead that has a history of being a ****ing hothead. That is not a GENERAL. That is not your leader. Your guidance.

I have to agree with Melvin. Give the guy 1 regular season game before you pass judgement.

Pioli Zombie
07-20-2009, 05:34 AM
this is the stupidest whiniest non issue that consistantly gets talked about on CP. Joe Montana and Trent Green were not the reasons the Chiefs didn't win a Super Bowl. Someone please explain to me how in 1993 and 1994 Montana blew it for the Chiefs or what more Green could have done in 2003. They have had good enough QBs to win. Blame Peterson for not replacing Montana and blame Vermeil for ignoring defense.
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Pioli Zombie
07-20-2009, 05:37 AM
Which evening would I not be plowed?

He's your classic DICK.

He knows the game, he's qualified, but he's just $#it with people. Not in the cool way, or the Parcells "I'm-a-dick-but-we'll-win-so-deal" kind of way, he's just fuck-all abrasive and rude.

As a person.

I'm 1-1. I thought DV would fail and thought Herm wouldn't. Here I think Haley will fail and Pioli won't.

Odd, but I don't think he'll be here long...
Good gravy are you fucking serious? The guy hasn't even coached a game yet. And your creds are that you predicted failure for the guy who went 13-3 and success for Herm Edwards. Oh, ok. Thanks for playing genius.
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MahiMike
07-20-2009, 07:00 AM
He only needs to put up Trent Green #s

Here. Here. :clap:

Rooster
07-20-2009, 07:25 AM
Does Len Dawson ever say anything of substance anymore?

Seriously.

STFU

Chiefnj2
07-20-2009, 07:34 AM
It's obvious Marino didn't want to come to KC. You can't blame Mac, especially when Marino had a mediocre off Sr. yr with Cocaine drug use rumors flying around and then to get stiffed at a job interview? Only then to see Blackledge with a great Sr. yr show up in suit and tie. Don't blame Mac. I think most of us presented with these same circumstances would have made the same decision.:thumb:

But as the ol saying goes hindsight is always 20/20.:doh!:

That's an extremely interesting tidbit of history that apparently nobody knew about/remembers. It does put the entire draft and 20/20 discussion into light. If it's true you can't really blame the organization for passing him up.

OnTheWarpath58
07-20-2009, 07:39 AM
That's an extremely interesting tidbit of history that apparently nobody knew about/remembers. It does put the entire draft and 20/20 discussion into light. If it's true you can't really blame the organization for passing him up.

I guess Jim Kelly had an addiction to painkillers or something?

You can sure as hell blame the organization for passing both of them up. The rumor about Marino has never been proven, and the club should have done their homework to dispel or prove it.

Hell, they have no excuse for passing on Kelly. None.

The story really isn't surprising, as we tend to have a history of being infatuated with the "good guy" instead of the guy that can actually play.

Chiefnj2
07-20-2009, 07:44 AM
I guess Jim Kelly had an addiction to painkillers or something?

You can sure as hell blame the organization for passing both of them up. The rumor about Marino has never been proven, and the club should have done their homework to dispel or prove it.

Hell, they have no excuse for passing on Kelly. None.

The story really isn't surprising, as we tend to have a history of being infatuated with the "good guy" instead of the guy that can actually play.

Didn't Kelly get drafted by Buffalo and then play two years in the USFL? Didn't he only show up in Buffalo because the USFL folded? 20/20 hindsight looks great.

Can you imagine this place if KC drafted Sanchez and then Sanchez went to play in Canada for two years?

OnTheWarpath58
07-20-2009, 07:47 AM
Didn't Kelly get drafted by Buffalo and then play two years in the USFL? Didn't he only show up in Buffalo because the USFL folded? 20/20 hindsight looks great.

Can you imagine this place if KC drafted Sanchez and then Sanchez went to play in Canada for two years?

Show me a fan of this franchise that would be unhappy about "losing" a draft pick for 2 years, only to have him return in his prime and become a HOF'er.

:rolleyes:

Hindsight or no, they fucked up. Period.

And this franchise has been paying the price ever since.

Chiefnj2
07-20-2009, 08:00 AM
Show me a fan of this franchise that would be unhappy about "losing" a draft pick for 2 years, only to have him return in his prime and become a HOF'er.

:rolleyes:

Hindsight or no, they ****ed up. Period.

And this franchise has been paying the price ever since.

I'm sure you'd support KC drafting a player in the first round who then goes on to play in the CFL for a few years. You'd be really happy.

OnTheWarpath58
07-20-2009, 08:10 AM
I'm sure you'd support KC drafting a player in the first round who then goes on to play in the CFL for a few years. You'd be really happy.

You might want to read my ENTIRE post.

And FWIW, things have changed just a tiny bit since 1983.

But go ahead, keep blaming everyone BUT the people that deserve it.

FAX
07-20-2009, 08:20 AM
Pass the rehash. Of course we want a franchise quarterback. We've always wanted a franchise quarterback. We've tried to get a franchise quarterback. We haven't found a franchise quarterback. I don't see how this is exactly newsworthy. And what is Lenny supposed to say? "You gonna eat those fries?"

Ah well, there's space to be filled and deadlines to meet.

It's a Chiefs tradition to suck at two things; drafting and player development. You get what you draft for in this league and overall, the Chiefs drafts for the last ... oh ... 20 years or so have been pretty terrible. In fact, they've been flat out, God awful since DT was selected. And, if you miss in the draft, you have to find a quarterback somehow. Since the commissioner doesn't allow teams to run black bag ops for the purpose of kidnapping quarterbacks from other teams, FA is about this only other way to get one. Anyway, since we suck at player development too, we've been forced to bring in guys who already have miles on them.

If Pioli and Haley can fix those two things, we'll be back to average before you know it. Then, if Haley proves he can prepare the team properly, hire assistants with brains, and make good gameday decisions, we'll be respectable again. At that point, it's all about the fighting spirit of the guys who take the field. Our challenges don't all rest on Cassel's shoulders.

We have a long, long way to go.

FAX

Chiefnj2
07-20-2009, 08:51 AM
You might want to read my ENTIRE post.

And FWIW, things have changed just a tiny bit since 1983.

But go ahead, keep blaming everyone BUT the people that deserve it.

It's easy to blame people 20 years after the fact. Blackledge was a very good college QB - he led a major program to a record of something like 30-5 in his three years as a starter and a national championship. 42 college TD passes to Marino's 32, plus not nearly as many red flags. Kelly went on to walk away from the NFL for two years. Marino apparently didn't even show up for his interview with KC.

If you were in a position to hire someone for a job, are you going to hire the guy that doesn't show up for the interview? Are you going to hire the guy that says he'll sign your contract, but he's going to work for your competitor for a few years first to see how things go?

King_Chief_Fan
07-20-2009, 10:14 AM
It's easy to blame people 20 years after the fact. Blackledge was a very good college QB - he led a major program to a record of something like 30-5 in his three years as a starter and a national championship. 42 college TD passes to Marino's 32, plus not nearly as many red flags. Kelly went on to walk away from the NFL for two years. Marino apparently didn't even show up for his interview with KC.

If you were in a position to hire someone for a job, are you going to hire the guy that doesn't show up for the interview? Are you going to hire the guy that says he'll sign your contract, but he's going to work for your competitor for a few years first to see how things go?

I am of the opinion that all this crying over spilt milk is fun, but not meaningful. There is no guarantee that if the Chiefs drafted Marino or Kelly that things would have turned out different....they might have but we don't know for sure. KC's 40 year history of not developing a QB speaks volumes to me. Blackledge had good college #'s and everything pointed to him being the right choice. I am sure he wishes KC would have passed on him and he would have loved to have gone to Buffalo or Miami. Maybe things would have been different for him there.

Mr. Krab
07-20-2009, 10:16 AM
I still think the Chiefs are risking more by signing him early than they would be risking by waiting.

JD10367
07-20-2009, 10:32 AM
Which evening would I not be plowed?

He's your classic DICK.

He knows the game, he's qualified, but he's just $#it with people. Not in the cool way, or the Parcells "I'm-a-dick-but-we'll-win-so-deal" kind of way, he's just ****-all abrasive and rude.

As a person.

I'm 1-1. I thought DV would fail and thought Herm wouldn't. Here I think Haley will fail and Pioli won't.

Odd, but I don't think he'll be here long...

He's a dick? He knows the game but is shit with people? Sounds like Bill Belichick. Tom Coughlin's the same way, and he was detested... until the Giants won the SB in '07.

Don't kid yourself. It's not about a coach's personality. It's about the Ws. If Haley wins, he'll be loved by one and all. If he loses, he'll be cast out, just as Belichick was in Cleveland and as Belichick ALMOST was in New England. There were rumblings in the New England press about it, in early '01, right before Bledsoe got knocked out of the NFL. You think Bernard Pollard made Matt Cassel a lot of money? He ain't got jack on Mo Lewis, who made both Tom Brady AND Bill Belichick megastars, LOL.

RustShack
07-20-2009, 10:54 AM
I can't believe the Chiefs passed on Tom Brady, six times :doh!:

JD10367
07-20-2009, 11:11 AM
I can't believe the Chiefs passed on Tom Brady, six times :doh!:

I can't believe the Patriots passed on Tom Brady, five times. Hindsight is awesome.

JASONSAUTO
07-20-2009, 11:26 AM
Show me a fan of this franchise that would be unhappy about "losing" a draft pick for 2 years, only to have him return in his prime and become a HOF'er.

:rolleyes:

Hindsight or no, they fucked up. Period.

And this franchise has been paying the price ever since.

was it for sure that kelly was coming back when he went to the usfl? and yeah otw i think everyone EVERYONE here would have been ready to kill piloi had he drafted a qb and he would have gone elsewhere to play.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 12:02 PM
Pass the rehash. Of course we want a franchise quarterback. We've always wanted a franchise quarterback. We've tried to get a franchise quarterback. We haven't found a franchise quarterback. I don't see how this is exactly newsworthy.

FAX

this is the stupidest whiniest non issue that consistantly gets talked about on CP. Joe Montana and Trent Green were not the reasons the Chiefs didn't win a Super Bowl. Someone please explain to me how in 1993 and 1994 Montana blew it for the Chiefs or what more Green could have done in 2003. They have had good enough QBs to win. Blame Peterson for not replacing Montana and blame Vermeil for ignoring defense.
Posted via Mobile Device

Listen up you sons o' bitches and you listen good:

This IS newsworthy, This IS important, and this DOES matter because without a franchise QB, the Chiefs will continue their fine tradition of "so close, but try again next year"-style of post-season play.

The one thing I can truly rely on with Scott Pioli is that he is damn near superhuman in his abilty to trim and maintain a consistent, winning roster.

And if some of you think having a joe blow game manager is more desirable than cultivating a drafted, young franchise QB to study under Cassel in couple o' three years from now, then I am overjoyed that you are NOT employed by the Kansas City Chiefs.

And Kill Yourself/Hamas.

Pioli Zombie
07-20-2009, 12:34 PM
You are assuming Cassel is just a game manager. False assumption.
Posted via Mobile Device

CoMoChief
07-20-2009, 12:38 PM
How about the Chiefs stop someone first.......then we can talk about winning some games.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 12:43 PM
You are assuming Cassel is just a game manager. False assumption.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wrong. I never assumed anything of the sort regarding Cassel in the post. The reference was, "what do you want when it's time to begin looking at Cassel's understudy/successor 3 or so years down the road."?

And if you're smart, the answer is:

I want to draft the best kid we possibly can and develop him in-house.

Demonpenz
07-20-2009, 12:52 PM
is this the same bill rieter that used to play sax for the urge?

Chocolate Hog
07-20-2009, 01:13 PM
Raised on Riots is right about the Chiefs should draft a QB to study under Cassel.Thats the Patriots way of doin things, they just fill a position with another player and he does just as good. That is the difference between Pioli and Peterson.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:41 PM
Raised on Riots is right about the Chiefs should draft a QB to study under Cassel.Thats the Patriots way of doin things, they just fill a position with another player and he does just as good. That is the difference between Pioli and Peterson.

Thank you.

So Cassel is 27 years old. Best case scenario; he works out great and we draft other needed personnel in 2010,11, and 12.
We then go back to the board in 2013 and are hopefully in a position whereby if the team is a consistent winner, we can afford to give the house away in order to move up IF the talent is there.

Worst case scenario; Cassel doesn't bomb but doesn't live up to expectation either. In that case, we go to the board a year earlier.

Chocolate Hog
07-20-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't give a fuck who our QB is as long as we win a super bowl. I think we can win a super bowl with Cassel based on his ability to make plays if theres talent around him.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't give a fuck who our QB is as long as we win a super bowl. I think we can win a super bowl with Cassel based on his ability to make plays if theres talent around him.

And if you want to win more than one, Pioli should be looking down the road and paying attention to the upcoming talent. Which he will be.
Because he's not a moron.
Like Carl.

Cassel may end up being God Of Arrowhead, but he WILL eventually retire.

Chocolate Hog
07-20-2009, 01:54 PM
And if you want to win more than one, Pioli should be looking down the road and paying attention to the upcoming talent. Which he will be.
Because he's not a moron.
Like Carl.

Cassel may end up being God Of Arrowhead, but he WILL eventually retire.

Cassel will be like Favre and never retire!

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 02:08 PM
Cassel will be like Favre and never retire!

The point is moot:

While unable to make up his mind about retirement, the fact remains; Favre is no longer a Packer.

So if Cassel wants to create a circus while simultaneously destroying what's left of his arm and body at that time, he will do so at another team's expense.

:p

Chocolate Hog
07-20-2009, 02:13 PM
The point is moot:

While unable to make up his mind about retirement, the fact remains; Favre is no longer a Packer.

So if Cassel wants to create a circus while simultaneously destroying what's left of his arm and body at that time, he will do so at another team's expense.

:p

Thats true. If Carl was still the GM he'd keep Cassel til he was washed up and allow the circus. Whats intresting is how Carl was offered a 3rd for Gonzalez but didn't trade him. Pioli comes in and Gonzalez is another year older and was able to get a 2nd round pick.

Halfcan
07-20-2009, 02:46 PM
Marino would have been awesome here-sadly there are tons of folks on here that don't even think he was a top ten QB???

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 02:53 PM
Thats true. If Carl was still the GM he'd keep Cassel til he was washed up and allow the circus. Whats intresting is how Carl was offered a 3rd for Gonzalez but didn't trade him. Pioli comes in and Gonzalez is another year older and was able to get a 2nd round pick.

I might not always agree with his choices, but Pioli does know how to work a deal.

Otter
07-20-2009, 02:58 PM
Since we're pouring salt on wounds here - did you guys know that the Chiefs never drafted a QB to learn under arguably the best QB to ever play the game, Joe Montana, while he was a Chief but then proceeded to give up draft picks for two QBs that were drafted in the 8th round in 1993? Joe's last year as a Chief was 1994.

Those two QBs:

Elvis Grbac - drafted 8th round in 1993
Trent Green - drafted 8th round 1993

The Chiefs plain old sucked at managing the QB position. Some bad luck? Yes. Lot's of stupidity as well? You betcha'!

Count Zarth
07-20-2009, 02:59 PM
Just think...we could have been booing Green in 1995 instead of Bono.

Otter
07-20-2009, 03:14 PM
Just think...we could have been booing Green in 1995 instead of Bono.

Ah, but Green liked KC Restaurants and wasn't a San Fran Douche Nozzle.

orange
07-20-2009, 03:22 PM
Thats true. If Carl was still the GM he'd keep Cassel til he was washed up and allow the circus. Whats intresting is how Carl was offered a 3rd for Gonzalez but didn't trade him. Pioli comes in and Gonzalez is another year older and was able to get a 2nd round pick.

I might not always agree with his choices, but Pioli does know how to work a deal.


Er... it's the same deal.

A 2010 2nd-rounder = a 2009 3rd-rounder.

In fact, it's the same deal Gonzalez said was on the table during the season last year.

milkman
07-20-2009, 03:50 PM
Good gravy are you ****ing serious? The guy hasn't even coached a game yet. And your creds are that you predicted failure for the guy who went 13-3 and success for Herm Edwards. Oh, ok. Thanks for playing genius.
Posted via Mobile Device

13-3 and a first round playoff exit.

Whoopty-fuckin'-do.

Same shit as Marty, in reverse.

Success isn't measured by regular season wins.
It's measured by post season performance.

If it were measured by the regular season, Chuck Knox would be in the HoF.

That being said, I disagree with Rausch.

Haley might appear to be a hothead, but he demonstrated people skills when he cut the OTAs short as a reward for the hard work the players had demontrated.

Brock
07-20-2009, 06:00 PM
Since we're pouring salt on wounds here - did you guys know that the Chiefs never drafted a QB to learn under arguably the best QB to ever play the game, Joe Montana, while he was a Chief but then proceeded to give up draft picks for two QBs that were drafted in the 8th round in 1993? Joe's last year as a Chief was 1994.

Those two QBs:

Elvis Grbac - drafted 8th round in 1993
Trent Green - drafted 8th round 1993

The Chiefs plain old sucked at managing the QB position. Some bad luck? Yes. Lot's of stupidity as well? You betcha'!

They spent a pretty high pick on Matt Blundin in 92. Not that that really changes your point.

Halfcan
07-20-2009, 06:02 PM
Yep we have spent Decades drafting QB's that look good in a tie and have Great dinner manners-what a joke.

FAX
07-20-2009, 06:23 PM
Listen up you sons o' bitches and you listen good:

This IS newsworthy, This IS important, and this DOES matter because without a franchise QB, the Chiefs will continue their fine tradition of "so close, but try again next year"-style of post-season play.

This article is about how the Chiefs are hoping Cassel can become their franchise quarterback. Unfortunately, for the people who have followed the Chiefs through the years, this is a lot of "been there - done that".

Regardless of the way people wish to spin it, the acquisition of Cassel isn't much different than the acquisition of Trent Green ... or Elvis Grbac, for that matter.

Sure, Chiefs fans would like a franchise quarterback. That isn't exactly news.

FAX

milkman
07-20-2009, 07:13 PM
This article is about how the Chiefs are hoping Cassel can become their franchise quarterback. Unfortunately, for the people who have followed the Chiefs through the years, this is a lot of "been there - done that".

Regardless of the way people wish to spin it, the acquisition of Cassel isn't much different than the acquisition of Trent Green ... or Elvis Grbac, for that matter.

Sure, Chiefs fans would like a franchise quarterback. That isn't exactly news.

FAX

The difference between Green and Cassel is that Green was 31 at the time we acquired him, while Cassel is 27.

Green, at best, could have been the "franchise QB" for 6-8 years, while Cassel could theoretically be that guy for the next 10-12 years.

For reference, Dawson was 28 when he was signed by the Chiefs.

FAX
07-20-2009, 08:25 PM
The difference between Green and Cassel is that Green was 31 at the time we acquired him, while Cassel is 27.

Green, at best, could have been the "franchise QB" for 6-8 years, while Cassel could theoretically be that guy for the next 10-12 years.

For reference, Dawson was 28 when he was signed by the Chiefs.

True. If he works out, Mr. milkman, we might get a few additional years out of him. That's still an if, though. He has to stay healthy, for one thing. Besides, he was still an acquisition - not a draft pick. He's still relatively unproven - in this kind of situation, certainly. He's seen a lot of bench time (for different reasons, of course, but he's still very familiar with a clipboard). And, he came in due to an existing relationship with the GM or coach. There are a lot of similarities when you think about it.

My main point was originally this, anyhow. I'm not going to list them all, but the Chiefs' situation requires that we take action in a number of areas, as you well know. Focusing solely on the quarterback position as if it were the long-awaited-for turning point (as the article implied) doesn't make a lot of sense to me. We obviously would love to have a franchise quarterback ... that's a big "duh". And, if he's the guy, that's great. It doesn't even begin to address our needs, though.

FAX

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 08:32 PM
It will never fucking end.

Everyone is Kurt Warner or Bret Favre, and will continue to play while roaming the sidelines in their Jazzy fucking Scooters.

Give me a break.

RustShack
07-20-2009, 08:34 PM
Er... it's the same deal.

A 2010 2nd-rounder = a 2009 3rd-rounder.

In fact, it's the same deal Gonzalez said was on the table during the season last year.

A second round pick is a second round pick no matter what year it is. They aren't going to add an extra round before the 2nd next year. There was never a second round pick on the table, and Gonzo said he was surprised anyone would give that up for him.

milkman
07-20-2009, 08:34 PM
True. If he works out, Mr. milkman, we might get a few additional years out of him. That's still an if, though. He has to stay healthy, for one thing. Besides, he was still an acquisition - not a draft pick. He's still relatively unproven - in this kind of situation, certainly. He's seen a lot of bench time (for different reasons, of course, but he's still very familiar with a clipboard). And, he came in due to an existing relationship with the GM or coach. There are a lot of similarities when you think about it.

My main point was originally this, anyhow. I'm not going to list them all, but the Chiefs' situation requires that we take action in a number of areas, as you well know. Focusing solely on the quarterback position as if it were the long-awaited-for turning point (as the article implied) doesn't make a lot of sense to me. We obviously would love to have a franchise quarterback ... that's a big "duh". And, if he's the guy, that's great. It doesn't even begin to address our needs, though.

FAX

True, we do have a lot of needs, but I've said it many times, in today's NFL, give me a franchise QB, then a top ten defense, and I'll take my chances.

The way the NFL works today, you can not build a complete team.

You win these days with a QB and defense.

milkman
07-20-2009, 08:36 PM
And more than that, you win these days with a QB and a front seven on defense.

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 08:37 PM
True, we do have a lot of needs, but I've said it many times, in today's NFL, give me a franchise QB, then a top ten defense, and I'll take my chances.

The way the NFL works today, you can not build a complete team.

You win these days with a QB and defense.

And more than that, you win these days with a QB and a front seven on defense.

Hear-hear!:clap:

FAX
07-20-2009, 08:38 PM
True, we do have a lot of needs, but I've said it many times, in today's NFL, give me a franchise QB, then a top ten defense, and I'll take my chances.

The way the NFL works today, you can not build a complete team.

You win these days with a QB and defense.

We need a few superior players on both sides of the ball. Impact guys. It's a bonus if one of them is the quarterback. The rest of the team needs to possess at least nominal ability - but an impressive work ethic.

Even setting the bar there, we're still missing a lot of pieces, so far as I can tell.

FAX

milkman
07-20-2009, 08:46 PM
We need a few superior players on both sides of the ball. Impact guys. It's a bonus if one of them is the quarterback. The rest of the team needs to possess at least nominal ability - but an impressive work ethic.

Even setting the bar there, we're still missing a lot of pieces, so far as I can tell.

FAX

The rest of the team has to be role players.

The Patriots won SBs with role players at RB, WR and in the secondary.

The O-Line was made to look better than it is by Brady.

They won SBs with superior play at QB and in the front seven on D.

FAX
07-20-2009, 08:48 PM
Getting back to the original point for a second, Mr. milkman, just look at the article's headline; "Is Cassel the one player the Chiefs have sought all these years?". If that doesn't imply that a franchise quarterback (which everybody's known we've needed for decades, by the way) is the solution to our woes, I don't know what does.

The entire tone of the article seems to indicate that Cassel (in the role of franchise quarterback) is the Big Answer From The Sky that we've been hoping and dreaming would fall into our laps. The fact is that any quarterback - franchise or no - has difficulty throwing a pass while his ass is planted on the turf with a DE sitting on his chest. Not to mention the problem of starting every series on your own 2 yard line.

FAX

FAX
07-20-2009, 08:51 PM
The rest of the team has to be role players.

The Patriots won SBs with role players at RB, WR and in the secondary.

The O-Line was made to look better than it is by Brady.

They won SBs with superior play at QB and in the front seven on D.

I can't disagree with this conceptually. It's my thinking as well. We might disagree, however, on the value of the OL.

I believe now and probably always will that (unless the NFL changes some rules) you build a team inside out - starting with the lines. The OL plays a vital role in winning ... not just by keeping the quarterback healthy, but by establishing a run game, controlling the clock, and wearing down the enemy defense. You can't underestimate the overall value to an NFL team of the offensive line, in my opinion.

FAX

milkman
07-20-2009, 08:56 PM
I think we are debating different things FAX.

A franchise QB is not the end all be all solution to all that ails this team.

However, if Cassel were to prove to be that franchise QB, then building a team around him gives KC a chance to actually compete for a SB or three.

The Chiefs of the 90s were a team that had all the pieces to compete for SBs, but in that time they only had one real QB, who was on the downside of his career and whose skills were diminished.

Had they secured a franchise QB, one that could overcome Martyocrity, we might have actually won a SB, and actually been a real contender rather than prtenders.

milkman
07-20-2009, 08:58 PM
I can't disagree with this conceptually. It's my thinking as well. We might disagree, however, on the value of the OL.

I believe now and probably always will that (unless the NFL changes some rules) you build a team inside out - starting with the lines. The OL plays a vital role in winning ... not just by keeping the quarterback healthy, but by establishing a run game, controlling the clock, and wearing down the enemy defense. You can't underestimate the overall value to an NFL team of the offensive line, in my opinion.

FAX

As I said earlier, the Pats O-line was made to look better than they actually are by Brady, and have been overrated because of that.

The Steelers O-Line this past season was nearly as bad as the Chiefs, and the Cards O-Line wsn't much better.

I'd like to have a great O-Line, but I'll take a franchise QB and outstanding front 7 first.

Count Zarth
07-20-2009, 09:01 PM
As I said earlier, the Pats O-line was made to look better than they actually are by Brady, and have been overrated because of that.


THIS.

I read a lot of talk on the Pats board about how their line had problems with jailbreaks early in the season...it got better as the season wore on.

Wasn't necessarily all Cassel's fault, or even his fault mostly.

Discuss Thrower
07-20-2009, 09:06 PM
The rest of the team has to be role players.

The Patriots won SBs with role players at RB, WR and in the secondary.

The O-Line was made to look better than it is by Brady.

They won SBs with superior play at QB and in the front seven on D.

On the front seven tangent, would it behoove KC to trade Flowers and Carr early on to get talent if a market can be had?

Raised On Riots
07-20-2009, 09:08 PM
On the front seven tangent, would it behoove KC to trade Flowers and Carr early on to get talent if a market can be had?

:spock:

milkman
07-20-2009, 09:14 PM
On the front seven tangent, would it behoove KC to trade Flowers and Carr early on to get talent if a market can be had?

No.

You draft and sign free agents.

orange
07-20-2009, 09:16 PM
Er... it's the same deal.

A 2010 2nd-rounder = a 2009 3rd-rounder.

A second round pick is a second round pick no matter what year it is. They aren't going to add an extra round before the 2nd next year.


New England also traded the 89th overall pick in the third round to the Tennessee Titans for a second-round pick next year.
http://www.wpri.com/dpp/sports/patriots/sports_wpri_patriots_pick_8_on_second_day_of_draft_20090427

Who'm I gonna believe, you or Bill Belichick?

RustShack
07-20-2009, 09:19 PM
New England also traded the 89th overall pick in the third round to the Tennessee Titans for a second-round pick next year.
http://www.wpri.com/dpp/sports/patriots/sports_wpri_patriots_pick_8_on_second_day_of_draft_20090427

Who'm I gonna believe, you or Bill Belichick?

Some teams make sacrifices to get picks now. Its just easier for teams to give away something in the future than something now.

FAX
07-20-2009, 09:19 PM
I think we are debating different things FAX.

A franchise QB is not the end all be all solution to all that ails this team.

However, if Cassel were to prove to be that franchise QB, then building a team around him gives KC a chance to actually compete for a SB or three.

The Chiefs of the 90s were a team that had all the pieces to compete for SBs, but in that time they only had one real QB, who was on the downside of his career and whose skills were diminished.

Had they secured a franchise QB, one that could overcome Martyocrity, we might have actually won a SB, and actually been a real contender rather than prtenders.

I don't think we're too far off. I totally agree with this (the bolded part). On that we are 100% simpatico, Mr. milkman. I also agree about the 90s. That's an excellent point actually. It didn't take long at all for Montana to make an enormous difference. What could have been if we'd had a solid, talented, franchise quarterback during that period is frustrating to think about, frankly. It could have made all the difference ... someone, as you say, we could have built around. Still, it proves that, from a total team perspective, it was all a mirage, though ... just like Vermeil's team was.

The only thing that toasted my buns about this article was the writer's notion that Cassel could be the "one player" that we've needed all these years. (Well, that and and the fact he was pretending that his article was actual "news"). We can agree, I know, that the Chiefs need a heck of a lot more than a quarterback in order to compete at a high level.

I guess what it boils down to for me is that we have failed to achieve anything resembling a "balanced team" for so long. When that happens, people (not you personally - but "people") seem to latch onto a savior who is going to turn the team around, dogs will lie with cats, and there will be world peace and free beer for everybody. Heck, I thought that one of the fatass DTs we drafted would have an impact on and elevate that pitiable defense when Vermeil's offense was clicking.

I've learned that it just doesn't work that way, though. As you say, we need a few players on both sides of the line who are difference-makers. Players the team can be constructed around. Everybody else can play their role and you have a shot. But it has to be done on both sides of the football. I'm hopeful that Cassel is the quarterback we need and that particular problem is addressed. That still leaves a lot of holes to fill, though. That's my story and it's stuck to me.

FAX

milkman
07-20-2009, 09:24 PM
I don't think we're too far off. I totally agree with this (the bolded part). On that we are 100% simpatico, Mr. milkman. I also agree about the 90s. That's an excellent point actually. It didn't take long at all for Montana to make an enormous difference. What could have been if we'd had a solid, talented, franchise quarterback during that period is frustrating to think about, frankly. It could have made all the difference ... someone, as you say, we could have built around. Still, it proves that, from a total team perspective, it was all a mirage, though ... just like Vermeil's team was.

The only thing that toasted my buns about this article was the writer's notion that Cassel could be the "one player" that we've needed all these years. (Well, that and and the fact he was pretending that his article was actual "news"). We can agree, I know, that the Chiefs need a heck of a lot more than a quarterback in order to compete at a high level.

I guess what it boils down to for me is that we have failed to achieve anything resembling a "balanced team" for so long. When that happens, people (not you personally - but "people") seem to latch onto a savior who is going to turn the team around, dogs will lie with cats, and there will be world peace and free beer for everybody. Heck, I thought that one of the fatass DTs we drafted would have an impact on and elevate that pitiable defense when Vermeil's offense was clicking.

I've learned that it just doesn't work that way, though. As you say, we need a few players on both sides of the line who are difference-makers. Players the team can be constructed around. Everybody else can play their role and you have a shot. But it has to be done on both sides of the football. I'm hopeful that Cassel is the quarterback we need and that particular problem is addressed. That still leaves a lot of holes to fill, though. That's my story and it's stuck to me.

FAX

We're reading the same book, it just took us a while to get to the same page.

FAX
07-20-2009, 09:30 PM
On the subject of the o-line, I guess it comes down to what you perceive as necessary to win. It's about priorities in the end, I suppose. And, different people see things differently. If they want to set the Cards' or the Pats' or even the Steelers' lines as their qualitative goal, that's okay by me. Kind of a "just in time" or "just enough" business philosophy. It can work, no question. They proved it.

I, however, think that if you can and do invest in building a dominant offensive line, you make everybody's job much, much easier. The defense gets several advantages; you control clock and you improve overall field position during the contest. The run game gains an obvious advantage as does the passing game. This results in a more varied offensive game plan which keeps the enemy D on their heels. Plus, the entire team benefits because the enemy D wears down in the late quarters.

Some people are "Defense First" minded. And, that's okay. It's just a difference in philosophies and, as I said, priorities. For me, the o-line provides more substantive advantages overall than any other group. Therefore, they are positions of emphasis when I become GM.

FAX

FAX
07-20-2009, 09:31 PM
We're reading the same book, it just took us a while to get to the same page.

ROFL

As usual.

You haven't seen my latest o-line argument yet, though.

FAX

Chiefnj2
07-21-2009, 07:52 AM
To be competitive for several years you need:
1. Franchise type QB.
2. Solid OL
3. To be able to pressure the QB.

Rausch
07-22-2009, 03:29 AM
Good gravy are you ****ing serious? The guy hasn't even coached a game yet. And your creds are that you predicted failure for the guy who went 13-3 and success for Herm Edwards. Oh, ok. Thanks for playing genius.
Posted via Mobile Device

So I'm 50/50.

I wasn't a blind homer when Herm was making terrible gametime decisions and I didn't fail to give DV credit for the 1/2 team he built. In fact, those last two years were the most exiciting for a Chiefs fan since the mid 90's.

That alone gives him a win in my book...

Rausch
07-22-2009, 03:31 AM
Marino would have been awesome here-sadly there are tons of folks on here that don't even think he was a top ten QB???

All time?

Nope. I don't.

As far as talent alone I'd rank him 3rd all time...

CupidStunt
07-22-2009, 04:15 AM
Some teams make sacrifices to get picks now. Its just easier for teams to give away something in the future than something now.

Right. We should all be giving future first-rounders away for mightymouse nickelbacks.

Easy 6
07-22-2009, 03:45 PM
He's a dick? He knows the game but is shit with people? Sounds like Bill Belichick. Tom Coughlin's the same way, and he was detested... until the Giants won the SB in '07.

Don't kid yourself. It's not about a coach's personality. It's about the Ws. If Haley wins, he'll be loved by one and all. If he loses, he'll be cast out, just as Belichick was in Cleveland and as Belichick ALMOST was in New England. There were rumblings in the New England press about it, in early '01, right before Bledsoe got knocked out of the NFL. You think Bernard Pollard made Matt Cassel a lot of money? He ain't got jack on Mo Lewis, who made both Tom Brady AND Bill Belichick megastars, LOL.

WOW...an Icon in 700 or so posts?

Gotta hand it to ya, the goods are usually there...congrats.