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RaiderH8r
08-18-2009, 09:12 AM
I would call this a bit of intraparty bifurcation. HA HA HA.


The Blue Dogs want to start over on the health reform bill.

Boyd, in his seventh term, represents a conservative area in northern Florida. A fiscal conservative, he is part of the group of House Democrats known as the Blue Dogs.

At the first event of the day in Cross City, he held up a copy of the bill passed by the Energy and Commerce Committee and embraced by the congressional leadership.

"I cannot support this bill in the version it is in now," he said. "We can do better. We can make it better."

He emphasized to the skeptical crowds that he will work to reduce quickly-rising medical costs; that any bill must not add to the deficit; and that Blue Dogs like himself fought to delay consideration by the full House of Representatives to allow members to hear directly from constituents during the August recess.

When a questioner, Ray Evans, said he believed the President wants to do too much at once and asked whether Boyd would "be willing to scrap everything" and start over to do pursue reform more incrementally, the congressman responded: "I think that is an excellent idea … we may end up there."

Read more: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/17/blue-dog-excellent-idea-to-start-over-on-health-care/

The President wants to back off the public option.

Obama and his top aides signaled retreat over the weekend on proposals for a provision under which consumers could choose from health insurance policies sold by the federal government as well as those marketed by private companies. "All I'm saying is, though, that the public option, whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health care reform," the president told a town hall-style audience in Grand Junction, Colo., on Saturday. "This is just one sliver of it, one aspect of it."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

And House liberals won’t budge on the public option, threatening to scuttle any bill that doesn’t have it.

“A bill without a public option won’t pass the House,” said Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.), a member of Energy & Commerce Health subcommittee. “Not only are they weakening their proposal, but they are also weakening their hand. This is legislative subtraction by subtraction.”

Privately, the leaders of the Congressional Progressive Caucus and Congressional Black Caucus sent the same message to Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, who said Sunday that a public plan is “not the essential element” of comprehensive reform.

“To take the public option off the table would be a grave error; passage in the House of Representatives depends upon inclusion of it,” wrote Reps. Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.), Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.) and Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) in a letter to Sebelius Monday.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26203.html#ixzz0OXka8gjt

And I thought BarryCare had a shot when it seemed they were changing the nomenclature from “public option” to “cooperative”. We’ll know exactly which bills do and do not have a public option based on the response of the House progressive caucus. That was easy.

wild1
08-18-2009, 09:16 AM
This could all be a ruse.

The "public option" revolted regular people, because they know that private companies would love to dump their health care expenses on the government, so it was effectively a government takeover.

Maybe they will try to start over and call it something else, but no matter what, it will put the government in control of your health care.

Donger
08-18-2009, 09:32 AM
This could all be a ruse.

The "public option" revolted regular people, because they know that private companies would love to dump their health care expenses on the government, so it was effectively a government takeover.

Maybe they will try to start over and call it something else, but no matter what, it will put the government in control of your health care.

“I think in theory you can imagine a co-operative meeting that definition [of a ‘public option’].” -- President Obama, July 29, Time Magazine

“We’re going to have some type of public option, call it ‘co-op,’ call it what you want.”
-- Senate Majority Leader Reid, July 10, Washington Post

“You could theoretically design a co-op plan that had the same attributes as a public plan.” -- Health and Human Services Secretary Sebelius, June 27, Bloomberg

“Chairman Baucus has asked me to sit down with [Sen.] Kent Conrad to see if we can use the co-op model to achieve the same goals as a public plan.” -- Sen. Chuck Schumer, June 15, Roll Call

“We don’t care what it’s called. We need something that’s going to keep the insurance companies honest.” -- Sen. Chuck Schumer, July 9, Fox News

“It will have, coming out of the House, a public option. The only debate on that is what it will be called.” -- Speaker Pelosi, July 13, Reuters

This next quote is particularly important, given Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) is chairman of the Senate Finance Committee. He is the one responsible for “brokering” the so-called co-op compromise:

“The [co-op has] to be written in a way that accomplishes the objectives of a public option.” -- Sen. Max Baucus, June 12, Politico

The objectives of the “public option” are exactly what the American people overwhelmingly object to: the government takeover of health care. The objectives have been exposed over the August break and at town hall meeting after town hall meeting through the reading aloud of H.R. 3200. Since their elected Democrat representatives aren’t reading the bill, their constituents are reading it to them.

BigRedChief
08-18-2009, 09:40 AM
they should go back to the drawing board. I don't like any plan I've read or heard about.

Brock
08-18-2009, 09:45 AM
They should just drop it and move on.

petegz28
08-18-2009, 09:51 AM
they should go back to the drawing board. I don't like any plan I've read or heard about.

Agreed, 100%

thecoffeeguy
08-18-2009, 10:00 AM
they should go back to the drawing board. I don't like any plan I've read or heard about.

Agreed...

Donger
08-18-2009, 10:05 AM
At this point, I think we should all give thanks to the Blue Dog Democrats and the Republicans for their resistance to the grotesque rush from Obama and congressional Democrats to pass this legislation in the time frame they proposed.

I think the fact that they tried to do so should also make us all angry and extremely wary of their motives; past, present and future.

wild1
08-18-2009, 10:16 AM
Agreed. The only reason it wasn't done was because of the political cost.

We all have proof positive now that they will try to yank this country to the far, far left at breakneck speed, the very second they get the opportunity and depsite what anyone wants or needs. And it's not about principle, because the only thing they have proven they care about (apart from foisting marxism on an unwilling public) is keeping themselves in power. Obviously, that is the #1 priority.

RINGLEADER
08-18-2009, 10:26 AM
Well Obama's crack political team are now on the record as being for the public option again. Guess Nancy Pelosi has the juice inside the White House...

Donger
08-18-2009, 10:27 AM
Well Obama's crack political team are now on the record as being for the public option again. Guess Nancy Pelosi has the juice inside the White House...

I don't think that this type of "change" on a daily basis is what the Obama followers were "hoping" for.

HonestChieffan
08-18-2009, 10:28 AM
I don't think anyone will buy the Co-op idea. Its a poor way to admit they have a wounded (correction per Hydro request) duck bill and its time to go back to the drawing board and actually evaluate whats broke, whats not, what needs a tune up and do the process right.

The politcial fall out iff they pass it will be huge and will not be recoverable.

Baby Lee
08-18-2009, 10:31 AM
I don't think anyone will buy the Co-op idea. Its a poor way to admit they have a woulded duck bill and its time to go back to the drawing board and actually evaluate whats broke, whats not, what needs a tune up and do the process right.

The politcial fall out iff they pass it will be huge and will not be recoverable.

I would the whole duck.

BigRedChief
08-18-2009, 10:36 AM
They should just drop it and move on.
We can't. Runaway health care costs are killing our economy and costing consumers millions needlessly. We need reform. We need this change. But, I've not heard of a plan to do this that I could get behind and support.

KC Dan
08-18-2009, 10:37 AM
We can't. Runaway health care costs are killing our economy and costing consumers millions needlessly. We need reform. We need this change.Reform - yes! A complete overhaul to a new bloated gov't buracracy - DEFINATELY NOT!

BigRedChief
08-18-2009, 10:38 AM
Reform - yes! A complete overhaul to a new bloated gov't buracracy - DEFINATELY NOT!
agreed.

Brock
08-18-2009, 10:46 AM
We can't. Runaway health care costs are killing our economy and costing consumers millions needlessly. We need reform. We need this change. But, I've not heard of a plan to do this that I could get behind and support.

I disagree with this entire post.

Hydrae
08-18-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't think anyone will buy the Co-op idea. Its a poor way to admit they have a woulded duck bill and its time to go back to the drawing board and actually evaluate whats broke, whats not, what needs a tune up and do the process right.

The politcial fall out iff they pass it will be huge and will not be recoverable.


Ignoring the typo - how do you fix that, with duck tape?

Hydrae
08-18-2009, 10:48 AM
We can't. Runaway health care costs are killing our economy and costing consumers millions needlessly. We need reform. We need this change. But, I've not heard of a plan to do this that I could get behind and support.

Runaway government is costing consumers billions needlessly, we need government reform!

wild1
08-18-2009, 10:51 AM
I disagree with this entire post.

I disagree with the part where he said that he has not heard a plan he would have gotten behind and supported...

HonestChieffan
08-18-2009, 10:54 AM
Ignoring the typo - how do you fix that, with duck tape?

Tpyo Tap e

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 11:39 AM
I disagree with this entire post.
The entire post? So you disagree with the last sentence, too? In effect, you are saying that you have heard of a plan that you can get behind and support?

Brock
08-18-2009, 11:43 AM
The entire post? So you disagree with the last sentence, too? In effect, you are saying that you have heard of a plan that you can get behind and support?

I disagree that he's never heard of a plan he can get behind and support. The fact is, he'd get behind and support anything Obama put forth.

wild1
08-18-2009, 11:44 AM
I disagree that he's never heard of a plan he can get behind and support. The fact is, he'd get behind and support anything Obama put forth.

precisely

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 11:45 AM
I disagree that he's never heard of a plan he can get behind and support. The fact is, he'd get behind and support anything Obama put forth.
So he's been lying this whole time when he's outwardly expressed his displeasure with the plans/proposals?

wild1
08-18-2009, 11:51 AM
So he's been lying this whole time when he's outwardly expressed his displeasure with the plans/proposals?

Perhaps the token dissatisfaction was genuine, but that has no bearing on the unconditional love and devotion that would be shown once it's time to choose a side.

Brock
08-18-2009, 11:55 AM
So he's been lying this whole time when he's outwardly expressed his displeasure with the plans/proposals?

Yes, he came out decidedly in favor of Obama's plan for taxing tobacco to pay for "uninsured children', so I doubt his veracity.

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 11:57 AM
Perhaps the token dissatisfaction was genuine, but that has no bearing on the unconditional love and devotion that would be shown once it's time to choose a side.

Yes, he came out decidedly in favor of Obama's plan for taxing tobacco to pay for "uninsured children', so I doubt his veracity.
Ya'll are some hateful motherfuckers.

Brock
08-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Ya'll are some hateful mother****ers.

We done here?

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 12:03 PM
General summary of board:

Look at all these sheep NObamamessiahbots. LOL they believe anything that he says.

*A few Obama voters express concern, disapproval with Obama*

LIARS!

RaiderH8r
08-18-2009, 12:29 PM
General summary of board:

Look at all these sheep NObamamessiahbots. LOL they believe anything that he says.

*A few Obama voters express concern, disapproval with Obama*

LIARS!

This whole bill needs not one single republican to pass. Not one. This entire collapse and bedwetting is within the Dem caucus. If their plan is so f'ing great then pass the damn thing. Own it. Will they do that? No. Why? Because if it is a bipartite bill (i.e. a token R vote) then when the FAILboat runs aground blame goes everywhere not just with the party that has 60 Senate votes, overwhelming House majority, and the White House. You want health care reform? Are you a Democrat? Then go right f'ing ahead and get it done and see what happens. Time to guts or nuts ladies. HA HA HA.

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 12:31 PM
This whole bill needs not one single republican to pass. Not one. This entire collapse and bedwetting is within the Dem caucus. If their plan is so f'ing great then pass the damn thing. Own it. Will they do that? No. Why? Because if it is a bipartite bill (i.e. a token R vote) then when the FAILboat runs aground blame goes everywhere not just with the party that has 60 Senate votes, overwhelming House majority, and the White House. You want health care reform? Are you a Democrat? Then go right f'ing ahead and get it done and see what happens. Time to guts or nuts ladies. HA HA HA.
What the FUCK does this post mean, and what does it have to do with the post of mine that you quoted?

RaiderH8r
08-18-2009, 12:54 PM
What the **** does this post mean, and what does it have to do with the post of mine that you quoted?

It means that if the party enjoying the majority in the House, a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and the White House want health care reform they can have it. Why all the hubbub bub?

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 12:57 PM
It means that if the party enjoying the majority in the House, a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and the White House want health care reform they can have it. Why all the hubbub bub?
OK. Well, it appears that the Democrats aren't on the same page. They have a left wing of the party at odds with the center-right portion of the party, and a President that appears to not care about either.

RINGLEADER
08-18-2009, 12:59 PM
Runaway government is costing consumers billions needlessly, we need government reform!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

RaiderH8r
08-18-2009, 01:00 PM
OK. Well, it appears that the Democrats aren't on the same page. They have a left wing of the party at odds with the center-right portion of the party, and a President that appears to not care about either.

But BarryCare is the answer :D Why can't they see this?

RINGLEADER
08-18-2009, 01:01 PM
This whole bill needs not one single republican to pass. Not one. This entire collapse and bedwetting is within the Dem caucus. If their plan is so f'ing great then pass the damn thing. Own it. Will they do that? No. Why? Because if it is a bipartite bill (i.e. a token R vote) then when the FAILboat runs aground blame goes everywhere not just with the party that has 60 Senate votes, overwhelming House majority, and the White House. You want health care reform? Are you a Democrat? Then go right f'ing ahead and get it done and see what happens. Time to guts or nuts ladies. HA HA HA.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

If I were the Republicans I would put out an incentive-based alternative and stay with it to the end. Make the contrast between the parties crystal clear. I'm sure they're cave because they're tone deaf and/or stupid but they should do everything they can to stop this because it is the right thing to do -- for the country and their party (in that order).

RaiderH8r
08-18-2009, 01:15 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

If I were the Republicans I would put out an incentive-based alternative and stay with it to the end. Make the contrast between the parties crystal clear. I'm sure they're cave because they're tone deaf and/or stupid but they should do everything they can to stop this because it is the right thing to do -- for the country and their party (in that order).

You're right, but now is not the time. Now is the time to sit back, grab the popcorn and watch the infighting create division within their party. Plenty of butthurt to go around on this one. Howard Dean and Maxine Waters have suggested "primarying" conservative Dems who don't toe their line. This is going to get a lot better. Later, when everyone is good and tired of the left's shitshow, then roll out the plan. Right around March, 2010. Just in time for the mid term elections.

mlyonsd
08-18-2009, 01:17 PM
You're right, but now is not the time. Now is the time to sit back, grab the popcorn and watch the infighting create division within their party. Plenty of butthurt to go around on this one. Howard Dean and Maxine Waters have suggested "primarying" conservative Dems who don't toe their line. This is going to get a lot better. Later, when everyone is good and tired of the left's shitshow, then roll out the plan. Right around March, 2010. Just in time for the mid term elections.

If they do that the republicans should be voted out right along side their cousin democrats.

RaiderH8r
08-18-2009, 01:40 PM
If they do that the republicans should be voted out right along side their cousin democrats.

If they put out a plan right now any hope of having it heard will be gone because of the current tempest surrounding the issue. This all has to die down of its own volition before something substantive can be reintroduced. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what the Republicans put forth as a plan, they do not control the agenda. It will not see the light of day so it has to be something that they can then effectively campaign on so that they can say, "If elected then (insert plan here, contrast with, etc). Such is the nature of legislating.

Anything said in this shitstorm is going to be drown out.

patteeu
08-18-2009, 01:53 PM
The Republicans have already put forth at least one plan (and probably more than one). And RaiderH8r is right that it didn't get any play at all. I completely agree with him that it's important for the Republicans to force the democrats to decide whether to pass a democrat-only measure or to start over. Any compromise under the present conditions will be a bad compromise since it will only involve the most liberal handful of Republicans in Congress.

IMO, the only acceptable type of compromise would be Obama jumping on board for a moderate dem + conservative Republican alternative (like Clinton's welfare reform) and that's not going to happen.

BucEyedPea
08-18-2009, 01:58 PM
they should go back to the drawing board. I don't like any plan I've read or heard about.

I don't want any plan. I want separation of state and medicine and I want to see it in a new amendment. :D

Calcountry
08-18-2009, 02:04 PM
They should just drop it and move on.Obama is much too arrogant to do that. Just remember, the ends justify the means in his mind.

They will push this through somehow.

Moderate Republicans that are happy with your health care: elections have consequences. Blue dogs don't hunt.

memyselfI
08-18-2009, 02:04 PM
This has been so entertaining to watch. And in the end, Lite is going to take a hit no matter what he does. He's in a no win situation of his own making. LMAO

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 02:05 PM
Obama is much too arrogant to do that. Just remember, the ends justify the means in his mind.

They will push this through somehow.

Moderate Republicans that are happy with your health care: elections have consequences. Blue dogs don't hunt.
Fuck You, Got Mine

Calcountry
08-18-2009, 02:05 PM
I don't want any plan. I want separation of state and medicine and I want to see it in a new amendment. :DPreach it sister, the government needs to stay the heck away from what I do with MY BODY. We have a right to privacy, roe v wade.

Calcountry
08-18-2009, 02:07 PM
**** You, Got MineLife liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness.

You are free to pursue it.

I don't want the government to be my master.

Calcountry
08-18-2009, 02:08 PM
This has been so entertaining to watch. And in the end, Lite is going to take a hit no matter what he does. He's in a no win situation of his own making. LMAOA new Jimmy Carter has been born, and this one even looks like Mr. Peanut.

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 02:08 PM
Life liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness.

You are free to pursue it.

I don't want the government to be my master.
I don't see healthcare as pursuing happiness so much as preserving life.

BucEyedPea
08-18-2009, 02:12 PM
I don't see healthcare as pursuing happiness so much as preserving life.

That's part of happiness. Life here essentially means no one can kill you unless in self-defense. It doesn't mean you have a right to an unatural length of life.

Reaper16
08-18-2009, 02:20 PM
That's part of happiness. Life here essentially means no one can kill you unless in self-defense. It doesn't mean you have a right to an unatural length of life.
That's the most callous thing that I've read on this board today.

And that's counting the post I made where I claimed to coerce billay's father into sexual intercourse.

Baby Lee
08-18-2009, 03:03 PM
Fuck You, Got Mine

It's not about the parts that aim at getting it to those who ain't got.

But I understand that resentment is more your wheelhouse.

BigRedChief
08-18-2009, 03:54 PM
I don't want any plan. I want separation of state and medicine and I want to see it in a new amendment. :D
but you would be very happy to see social security and medicare go away, correct?

Brock
08-18-2009, 04:04 PM
but you would be very happy to see social security and medicare go away, correct?

Sure, give me my money back. I promise I'll do just fine.

BucEyedPea
08-18-2009, 04:30 PM
but you would be very happy to see social security and medicare go away, correct?

Not immediately no....already too many dependent on those. Let's just not create more dependency and let the other two get phased out by letting the young opt out. Besides ss is a contract with people who paid into it. I think the Fed govt needs to honor such an agreement.

BucEyedPea
08-18-2009, 04:33 PM
At this point, I think we should all give thanks to the Blue Dog Democrats and the Republicans for their resistance to the grotesque rush from Obama and congressional Democrats to pass this legislation in the time frame they proposed.

I think the fact that they tried to do so should also make us all angry and extremely wary of their motives; past, present and future.

Yes. See they're not all bad. At least the Ds challenged their own guy. We'd be in a lot better shape if the Rs did that to Bush!

BucEyedPea
08-18-2009, 04:34 PM
We can't. Runaway health care costs are killing our economy and costing consumers millions needlessly. We need reform. We need this change. But, I've not heard of a plan to do this that I could get behind and support.

Brought to you by the US govt trying to make it more accessible and affordable to all.

RaiderH8r
08-19-2009, 09:06 AM
Well, it looks like the Dems are going to play nuts up. :clap: And surprise, they blame the GOP because they care so much about R alternatives to their plan.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26250.html

President Obama now realizes he probably will have to pass health reform with Democratic votes alone, White House officials say.


The admission is a monumental shift in Washington’s top fight of the year, with the energy now shifting to differences among Democrats, rather than efforts to lure a critical mass of Republicans.


The aides call it more a prediction than a strategy shift, and blame the GOP.


"We were forced into this by Republicans," one official said.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26250.html#ixzz0Odb9g6Vf

patteeu
08-19-2009, 09:56 AM
More of Obama's peculiar form of "bipartisanship".

Chief Faithful
08-19-2009, 10:15 AM
All of this could have been avoided if the Dems had not stripped every single Republican proposal and ammendment in the House sub-committees. Even token bi-partisan support would have received enough Republican votes to avoid the Blue Dog push.

Times have never been more partisan in Washington then now.

Chief Faithful
08-19-2009, 10:20 AM
Sure, give me my money back. I promise I'll do just fine.

I pay significantly more into SS then all my other investments combined and I will receive significantly more in return with my investments.

Donger
08-19-2009, 10:22 AM
I pay significantly more into SS then all my other investments combined and I will receive significantly more in return with my investments.

Yes, but that isn't the purpose and goal of SS.

RINGLEADER
08-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Well, it looks like the Dems are going to play nuts up. :clap: And surprise, they blame the GOP because they care so much about R alternatives to their plan.

The Dems are the ones playing politics. Unless they thought that by shooting down any and all alternatives brought by the Republicans was a way to attract their involvement. :rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
08-19-2009, 10:33 AM
Heard last night on tv that Pelosi said "We've been trying to pass HC for 30 years!" That there is an admission that the rising costs have little to do with trying to pass this because it was much more affordable 30 years ago. It's about being a socialist.

BucEyedPea
08-19-2009, 10:37 AM
That's the most callous thing that I've read on this board today.
Well then you hate life and the truth about it.

You have a right to a natural birth, life and death. Anything else you need or want to enhance those things are part of pursuing happiness on your own. Or if you prefer to secure the blessings of liberty for your own self. No one is obligated to provide it for you, including your govt. Those are the only rights stipulated in our Constitution that you get protected by govt. You do however, have the right to have govt protect your right to life from acts of aggression by others....because that is natural and a true right.

Call it callous all you want...but it's the reality. We do not live in a utopia.

RINGLEADER
08-19-2009, 10:45 AM
Heard last night on tv that Pelosi said "We've been trying to pass HC for 30 years!" That there is an admission that the rising costs have little to do with trying to pass this because it was much more affordable 30 years ago. It's about being a socialist.

Just another in a long list of things that Obamacare supporters must turn a blind eye towards to find their support of a bad idea...

1. Independent analysis says it will create enormous deficits long-term;
2. CBO says it will likely save very little and create an enormous short-term deficit;
3. Similar plans have failed in MA and other countries where it has been tried;
4. etc., etc., etc.

BucEyedPea
08-19-2009, 10:48 AM
Just another in a long list of things that Obamacare supporters must turn a blind eye towards to find their support of a bad idea...

1. Independent analysis says it will create enormous deficits long-term;
2. CBO says it will likely save very little and create an enormous short-term deficit;
3. Similar plans have failed in MA and other countries where it has been tried;
4. etc., etc., etc.

Not only that but healthcare costs have continued to rise worldwide even in countries with socialized or govt provided healthcare/insurance.

It's about feelings! It feels good.

RaiderH8r
08-19-2009, 10:48 AM
The Dems are the ones playing politics. Unless they thought that by shooting down any and all alternatives brought by the Republicans was a way to attract their involvement. :rolleyes:

I think its great they're going nuts up. Let them put their moderates squarely in a box between their leadership and their constituents. Carville said the Dems should run this thing up the R's ass and let the R's filibuster in the Senate. My advice, do not filibuster. Offer amendments, debate, and opposition but make the Dems take this vote and blast them on it. If the R's filibuster it becomes about obstructionism, not about how f'ing bad the bill is.

RINGLEADER
08-19-2009, 12:10 PM
I think its great they're going nuts up. Let them put their moderates squarely in a box between their leadership and their constituents. Carville said the Dems should run this thing up the R's ass and let the R's filibuster in the Senate. My advice, do not filibuster. Offer amendments, debate, and opposition but make the Dems take this vote and blast them on it. If the R's filibuster it becomes about obstructionism, not about how f'ing bad the bill is.

The Dems have convinced themselves that the opposition isn't real. That was the whole point in marginalizing the dissent. It had nothing to do with the people.

Reaper16
08-19-2009, 12:43 PM
Well then you hate life and the truth about it.

You have a right to a natural birth, life and death. Anything else you need or want to enhance those things are part of pursuing happiness on your own. Or if you prefer to secure the blessings of liberty for your own self. No one is obligated to provide it for you, including your govt. Those are the only rights stipulated in our Constitution that you get protected by govt. You do however, have the right to have govt protect your right to life from acts of aggression by others....because that is natural and a true right.

Call it callous all you want...but it's the reality. We do not live in a utopia.
That doesn't seem to be logically consistent. How is dying via an "act of aggression by others" any less "natural" a death than dying because you couldn't afford medical treatment?

Chief Faithful
08-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Yes, but that isn't the purpose and goal of SS.

So, what is the goal as you see it?

Here is your softball pitch.

Chief Faithful
08-19-2009, 12:54 PM
The Dems are the ones playing politics. Unless they thought that by shooting down any and all alternatives brought by the Republicans was a way to attract their involvement. :rolleyes:

Is is any wonder thay have zero Republican votes?

RaiderH8r
08-19-2009, 12:59 PM
The Dems have convinced themselves that the opposition isn't real. That was the whole point in marginalizing the dissent. It had nothing to do with the people.

The dangers of a life lived inside an echo chamber.

Chief Faithful
08-19-2009, 01:03 PM
That doesn't seem to be logically consistent. How is dying via an "act of aggression by others" any less "natural" a death than dying because you couldn't afford medical treatment?

You could take that line of reasoning to an infinite degree. Maybe the government should guarantee housing because you could die without it. Or, maybe they need to feed us because we could die without it. Cloths are important to prevent hypothermia or you could die. Please provide the gas to my furnace so I won't die. etc, etc, etc...