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View Full Version : General Politics Interesting take....People don't like dishonesty


HonestChieffan
08-20-2009, 06:22 AM
Interesting take on ObamaCare
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2009/08/18/why-obamacare-is-failing/#more-9630

Why Obamacare is failing



In his column in the Los Angeles Times, Jonah Goldberg came close to explaining why Obamacare is failing: “Suspicion of bad motives are only reinforced by Obama’s determination to steamroll to victory.”

In 14 words, Goldberg touched on the real problem with the president and the president’s health plan.

People are suspicious, and with good reason.

They know that President Obama wants universal health care but he is too chicken to come right out and tell the American people that.

Her is trying to sneak the old camel’s nose beneath the tent.

Americans know better.

They figured it out.

That is why 54% of American voters want Congress to do nothing — nothing — absolutely nothing.

They know that Obama and most of the rest of the Democrats are lying when they say this is not about socialized medicine.

It is.

This is the third try to get a cammel’s snout inside the tent.

In the 1960s, the excuse was the poor and the elderly had no health insurance and taxpayers should provide it. That brought in Medicare and Medicaid, which increased demand for health treatment, which was the idea and that is good. But the increase in demand drove up prices, which is fine too because higher prices attracted good doctors from around the globe.

The downside was the government’s refusal to pay in full for services rendered.

But we now have the best medical care in the world. Expensive? Yes, but darned well worth it.

Taking care of the poor, the disabled and the old pretty much ended the public’s desire for universal health care. Hillary tried it 16 years ago. A dozen years ago a Republican Congress approved S-CHIP, which covered lower middle-class children.

Now the excuse is the uninsured, who fall into 5 categories: illegal aliens, people with pre-existing conditions, the self-employed, people who qualify for a program but won’t take it, and people who could afford it but don’t want it. Of the five groups, the pre-existing conditions people draw the most sympathy and we can help them without going to uuniversal health care.

It is not the socialism.

It is the dishonesty.

Barack Obama won’t admit the truth about his plans to impose universal health care upon the nation. This does not help him gain support for his policies, and it undermines the public’s perception of him.

He’s in a quagmire because he is not being honest. And it shows.

blaise
08-20-2009, 07:20 AM
I'm so reporting this guy to the White House.

Fishpicker
08-20-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm so reporting this guy to the White House.

too late. the email address that was flag@whitehouse.gov has been deleted. people kept sending PDF copies of the actual health reform bill.

bluehawkdoc
08-20-2009, 07:58 AM
too late. the email address that was flag@whitehouse.gov has been deleted. people kept sending PDF copies of the actual health reform bill.ROFL

BucEyedPea
08-20-2009, 08:02 AM
In the 1960s, the excuse was the poor and the elderly had no health insurance and taxpayers should provide it. That brought in Medicare and Medicaid, which increased demand for health treatment, which was the idea and that is good. But the increase in demand drove up prices, which is fine too because higher prices attracted good doctors from around the globe.

The downside was the government’s refusal to pay in full for services rendered.

But we now have the best medical care in the world. Expensive? Yes, but darned well worth it.
Jonah says a lot of true things in the whole post. But this section here especially the bold is where he is not a real free-market small govt Republican but a NeoCon ( what the NWo mostly is made up of) He's just a poser for mercantilist interests getting gauranteed markets to get rich.

The increased demand did push up prices, but then he says that's good because it attracted the best doctors. The truth of the matter is, this is not good and is not what happens in a free-market. Prices would be stable and even move down in healthcare. It's no different with any other hi tech products andservices. When we didn't have this govt intrustion, healthcare and HC insurance was affordable and also the envy of the world.

Now we have patients and doctors unhappy but corporations happy as they rake in the dough. Jonah is wrong.

Me thinks Jonah, the NeoCon, is a poser doing the same thing the Ds did by railing against the incumbants so his merry band of thieves can take over again and run roughshod over weak and poor nations that are no threat in order to nation build the entire planet.

Beware of Jonah's motives.

blaise
08-20-2009, 08:02 AM
too late. the email address that was flag@whitehouse.gov has been deleted. people kept sending PDF copies of the actual health reform bill.

That's ok. I'll just forward it to David Axelrod. I get an email from him once a month or so telling me how I can be a good American Obama supporter.

RINGLEADER
08-20-2009, 09:59 AM
Jonah says a lot of true things in the whole post. But this section here especially the bold is where he is not a real free-market small govt Republican but a NeoCon ( what the NWo mostly is made up of) He's just a poser for mercantilist interests getting gauranteed markets to get rich.

The increased demand did push up prices, but then he says that's good because it attracted the best doctors. The truth of the matter is, this is not good and is not what happens in a free-market. Prices would be stable and even move down in healthcare. It's no different with any other hi tech products andservices. When we didn't have this govt intrustion, healthcare and HC insurance was affordable and also the envy of the world.

Now we have patients and doctors unhappy but corporations happy as they rake in the dough. Jonah is wrong.

Me thinks Jonah, the NeoCon, is a poser doing the same thing the Ds did by railing against the incumbants so his merry band of thieves can take over again and run roughshod over weak and poor nations that are no threat in order to nation build the entire planet.

Beware of Jonah's motives.

I don't think Jonah wrote anything beyond the sentence quoted.....

Cave Johnson
08-20-2009, 10:13 AM
"But we now have the best medical care in the world. Expensive? Yes, but darned well worth it."

Those without access to said care beyond ERs, or who are bankrupted by said care, or lifespan statistics, might disagree.

Or, apparently, so does the general public.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117205/americans-not-feeling-health-benefits-high-spending.aspx

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html

But when was this ever about facts. It's a "let's tell the most audacious lie, or half truth and see what scares people" kind of debate.

banyon
08-20-2009, 10:24 AM
Yeah if people didn't like dishonesty, i don't think they'd be spreading and encouraging lies about death panels and pulling the plug on Grandma.

Chief Henry
08-20-2009, 10:31 AM
too late. the email address that was flag@whitehouse.gov has been deleted. people kept sending PDF copies of the actual health reform bill.


Jaz and WH spokesman Gibbs didn't think it was a bad thing :spock:

2bikemike
08-20-2009, 10:37 AM
Yeah if people didn't like dishonesty, i don't think they'd be spreading and encouraging lies about death panels and pulling the plug on Grandma.

Yeah I'm thinking it has a lot less to do with lies and more of a distrust to what the Govt is cabable of delivering without breaking the bank.

pikesome
08-20-2009, 10:42 AM
Yeah if people didn't like dishonesty, i don't think they'd be spreading and encouraging lies about death panels and pulling the plug on Grandma.

The "death panels" idea is one of the things I think people worry about with "socialized medicine". And while the concept has been taken to a extreme, the concept that the old and/or terminally ill will have their care restricted on a cost-benefit basis really is a danger. The bill says "voluntary counseling" which, if you're already distrustful, could very easily be interpreted as "pressured to". Or that once "voluntary counseling" doesn't work that treatment will restricted.

HonestChieffan
08-20-2009, 10:42 AM
Yeah if people didn't like dishonesty, i don't think they'd be spreading and encouraging lies about death panels and pulling the plug on Grandma.

Better if called end of life counseling and using scarce resources for greatest good. The words are an unfortunate outcome of what should be an honest discussion. "pulling the plug on grandma" is a decision that families make every day across this country its just not a public political discussion for most.

Death Panels, not really, certainly not called any such thing. But as you see today in Vancouever, they are deciding how to get from September to December on a fixed budget and choose what and who gets treatments and what treatments and where...is that a death panel, no, I wouldnt call it that, but they will establish a priority and they will make choices. Will some of the decisions involve life or death, sure. Will some decions result in someone passing away, of course it will. No different than Great Britain where evern Brown has discussed the over 400 people who passed away without the needed life saving treatments in their system.



You can bay at the moon all you care to and try to twist this any way you can but its a fact that under a governmnent system people become budget items, illnesses become a factor of likelyhood of success or failure and the resource is fixed against a demand that cannot be predicted or controlled. So you control the one thing you can...how much you spend. Welcome to ObamaCare.

Chief Henry
08-20-2009, 10:44 AM
Yeah if people didn't like dishonesty, i don't think they'd be spreading and encouraging lies about death panels and pulling the plug on Grandma.



Do you prefer the RED pill or the BLUE pill ? WHO will be the decison makers on who gets care and who doesn't ? Whats the criteria for those decision makers ?

KC Dan
08-20-2009, 10:45 AM
The "death panels" idea is one of the things I think people worry about with "socialized medicine". And while the concept has been taken to a extreme, the concept that the old and/or terminally ill will have their care restricted on a cost-benefit basis really is a danger. The bill says "voluntary counseling" which, if you're already distrustful, could very easily be interpreted as "pressured to". Or that once "voluntary counseling" doesn't work that treatment will restricted.Especially if you are 70 years old and some 20 to 40-something is changing the rules in mid-stream that WILL affect you immediately but not HIM for 40 years. I urge all here to go to a townhall and see the age-split. It truly is astonishing.

2bikemike
08-20-2009, 10:52 AM
I certainly understand and have a personal experience with end of life counciling when my mother was terminally ill. It is a good thing.

However I also understand the fear people have that if the Govt were to take over HC the costs could spriral out of control and something would have to give. Could it be the care Grandma or your elderly parents receive? Who really knows.

My entire gripe with this whole Health Care issue revolves around the Govt. inefficiencies. We have 2 major social programs that are disasters in the making. The only way to sustain them is to tax our children to death.

banyon
08-20-2009, 10:56 AM
Better if called end of life counseling and using scarce resources for greatest good. The words are an unfortunate outcome of what should be an honest discussion. "pulling the plug on grandma" is a decision that families make every day across this country its just not a public political discussion for most.

Death Panels, not really, certainly not called any such thing. But as you see today in Vancouever, they are deciding how to get from September to December on a fixed budget and choose what and who gets treatments and what treatments and where...is that a death panel, no, I wouldnt call it that, but they will establish a priority and they will make choices. Will some of the decisions involve life or death, sure. Will some decions result in someone passing away, of course it will. No different than Great Britain where evern Brown has discussed the over 400 people who passed away without the needed life saving treatments in their system.



You can bay at the moon all you care to and try to twist this any way you can but its a fact that under a governmnent system people become budget items, illnesses become a factor of likelyhood of success or failure and the resource is fixed against a demand that cannot be predicted or controlled. So you control the one thing you can...how much you spend. Welcome to ObamaCare.

you don't believe that there were prominent Republicans out there making statements that directly talked about "Death panels"?

HonestChieffan
08-20-2009, 10:58 AM
I thought you were wanting to discuss content and reality. What someone calls something is irrelevant...You can make up a name you like and I can too. It doesnt change the reality of the fact.

Stay shallow banyon, its safe there for you.

patteeu
08-20-2009, 12:12 PM
Yeah if people didn't like dishonesty, i don't think they'd be spreading and encouraging lies about death panels and pulling the plug on Grandma.

It's the dishonesty of Obama and the democrats that makes the death panel exaggeration (for now) resonate.

patteeu
08-20-2009, 12:14 PM
Better if called end of life counseling and using scarce resources for greatest good. The words are an unfortunate outcome of what should be an honest discussion. "pulling the plug on grandma" is a decision that families make every day across this country its just not a public political discussion for most.

Death Panels, not really, certainly not called any such thing. But as you see today in Vancouever, they are deciding how to get from September to December on a fixed budget and choose what and who gets treatments and what treatments and where...is that a death panel, no, I wouldnt call it that, but they will establish a priority and they will make choices. Will some of the decisions involve life or death, sure. Will some decions result in someone passing away, of course it will. No different than Great Britain where evern Brown has discussed the over 400 people who passed away without the needed life saving treatments in their system.



You can bay at the moon all you care to and try to twist this any way you can but its a fact that under a governmnent system people become budget items, illnesses become a factor of likelyhood of success or failure and the resource is fixed against a demand that cannot be predicted or controlled. So you control the one thing you can...how much you spend. Welcome to ObamaCare.

Fine post, HonestChieffan.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/255/PreviewComp/SuperStock_255-3128.jpg

BucEyedPea
08-20-2009, 12:16 PM
What about intellectual dishonesty.....like thinking a bill has to say "death panels" specifically for them to exist when if one just knows supply and demand and/or look at other socialist HC systems to know rationing means some don't get care, that it's decided politically by govt bureaucrats which results in some people getting killed by omission....or that costs have to be maintained.

Silly me...but that has got to be one of the biggest lies in the book. Or a nonconfront of truth and reality....winding up living the lie so completely they can't spot it as one. This is what the something for nothing crowds winds up as.

Chief Henry
08-20-2009, 12:41 PM
WHO will make the end of life decisions like whats happening in Vancover?
WHO decides WHO gets the surgery and WHO decides WHO gets the RED Pill and WHO decides WHO gets the BLUE Pill. Somethig so basic is NOT being answered by Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Harry Reid or any other National Health Care Zealot !!!

BEP, when you say intellectual dishonesty on they're part, thats very accurate.

Chief Faithful
08-20-2009, 12:46 PM
too late. the email address that was flag@whitehouse.gov has been deleted. people kept sending PDF copies of the actual health reform bill.

Hurray for those "real" Americans getting that address deleted.

Chiefshrink
08-20-2009, 12:49 PM
:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:Let's see...................

1. Stimulus Bill -RAMMED down our throats and is nothing BUT pork which "O" promised NO pork and would go through every item "line by line" to prevent this on top of sneaking in a 300 page addendum of more pork at 3:00 a.m. that morning just hrs before the vote. Eliminated Repubs from the process while not revealing what was really in this bill until it was too late but it wouldn't matter anyway. So much for transparency.

Any economic stimulus yet?

2. Moved the census under WH control after the fact.

3. Nationalizing all the Big Banks-RAMMED down our throats after the fact.

4. Nationalized all but 1 car cos.-RAMMED down our throats after the fact.

5. Cap and Trade - RAMMED down our throats after the fact not revealing that this bill is nothing more that one big ass tax bill and does NOTHING for the environment

6. Healthscare bill:eek:- ATTEMPTING to RAM down our throats NEED I SAY MORE

ALL THIS DONE WITH NO TRANSPARENCY AFTER BEING PROMISED "NOTHING BUT TRANSPARENCY" during O's campaign.

And to think there is more to add to this list!!!:rolleyes:

And the Libs and O are surprised that very few trust O at this point????:shrug:

patteeu
08-20-2009, 01:11 PM
ALL THIS DONE WITH NO TRANSPARENCY AFTER BEING PROMISED "NOTHING BUT TRANSPARENCY" during O's campaign.

Obama2012 campaign slogan: "Transparency in our second term. We've still got change left in our tank!"

blaise
08-20-2009, 01:13 PM
Obama2012 campaign slogan: "Transparency in our second term. We've still got change left in our tank!"

He just wants transparency with tinted glass because he's afraid you'll hurt your eyes.
It's for your own good.

BucEyedPea
08-20-2009, 01:21 PM
WHO will make the end of life decisions like whats happening in Vancover?
WHO decides WHO gets the surgery and WHO decides WHO gets the RED Pill and WHO decides WHO gets the BLUE Pill. Somethig so basic is NOT being answered by Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Harry Reid or any other National Health Care Zealot !!!

BEP, when you say intellectual dishonesty on they're part, thats very accurate.

You're also dealing with one of that side's lawyers—trained in the "art" of argument or sophistry.