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View Full Version : Chiefs Elway a fraud as Broncos' offseason of FAIL continues


Count Zarth
08-20-2009, 09:42 AM
Schadenfreude.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/1393793.html

This should come as no surprise to Chiefs fans, but former Broncos quarterback John Elway is a fraud.

OK, maybe not a fraud, but it’s been widely accepted that Elway holds the career NFL comeback record, but research indicates that not true.

Elway is credited with 47 fourth-quarter comebacks, the highest total in league history. According to the widely accepted number, Elway engineered 10 more such comebacks than former Dolphins quarterback Dan Marino.

But the researcher Scott Kacsmar found major problems when he started investigating the data. “Comebacks” aren’t an official statistic. That means that each team’s public relations department gets to use its own definition of comeback. The Dolphins used a strict interpretation for Marino: he got credit for a comeback only if he took the field in the fourth quarter with the Dolphins trailing and led a game-winning drive.

The Broncos used a more lenient definition: Elway got credit for leading a comeback if the Broncos were tied in the fourth quarter. There were some other variations: in one instance, Elway got credit for a comeback in a game that ended in a tie.

Once Kacsmar standardized the definitions and corrected some media guide oversights, he discovered that Elway had 34 true comebacks. Marino had 36. If you prefer to count the game-winning drives that started with fourth-quarter ties, then Marino still has a 51-49 edge. Any way you slice it, Marino is the real “comeback” king.

Elway may not even be second. Johnny Unitas was credited with 31 comebacks by Colts media guides, but they only counted regular-season comebacks, while Elway and Marino both got credit for playoff games. That means Unitas doesn’t get credit for the 1958 championship (the “Greatest Game Ever Played”), and Kacsmar found two other comebacks for Unitas. That means that Unitas and Elway are tied, though with scant play-by-play data available for Unitas’ career, there may be a few errors in the data.

Kacsmar’s research can be found at ProFootballReference’s blog. Further analysis can be found at Football Outsiders.

Detoxing
08-20-2009, 09:44 AM
ROFL Best Offseason evar!

Mile High Mania
08-20-2009, 09:47 AM
http://www.webcpa.com/media/newspics/mrbill.jpg

Rain Man
08-20-2009, 09:51 AM
Filthy stinking liar.


And a good quarterback would've not gotten behind in the first place.

CoMoChief
08-20-2009, 10:07 AM
horse mouthed mother fucker that John Elway is.

Demonpenz
08-20-2009, 10:45 AM
have you seen elways face on that coors commercial? I think Michael Jacksons corpse has held up better

vailpass
08-20-2009, 11:41 AM
Elway will give you guys red-ass for the rest of your lives.

Rooster
08-20-2009, 11:44 AM
Boooooo cheatin donkey QB, hurray beer.....

CaliforniaChief
08-20-2009, 11:51 AM
Bronco Fan:

Your coach wants our QB. (#7)
Your QB is Sasquatch the Amputee.
Your franchise QB is with another team.
The QB before that is playing handball.
Your legendary QB is doing a former Raiders' cheerleader.

vailpass
08-20-2009, 11:52 AM
Bronco Fan:

Your coach wants our QB. (#7)
Your QB is Sasquatch the Amputee.
Your franchise QB is with another team.
The QB before that is playing handball.
Your legendary QB is doing a former Raiders' cheerleader.

Raiders cheerleaders are hot. How is banging a cheerleader an insult?

Rooster
08-20-2009, 12:21 PM
Raiders cheerleaders are hot. How is banging a cheerleader an insult?

He lost me on that one too. :)

CaliforniaChief
08-20-2009, 12:27 PM
Ok fine...maybe that's just more irony that she used to be a Raiders' cheerleader. I can retract that one.

vailpass
08-20-2009, 12:30 PM
Ok fine...maybe that's just more irony that she used to be a Raiders' cheerleader. I can retract that one.

Pussy knows no uniform.:)

BigMeatballDave
08-20-2009, 12:33 PM
Bronco Fan:

Your coach wants our QB. (#7)
Your QB is Sasquatch the Amputee.
Your franchise QB is with another team.
The QB before that is playing handball.
Your legendary QB is doing a former Raiders' cheerleader.
ROFL

Garcia Bronco
08-20-2009, 12:39 PM
Elway is the best and better than Marino. Six days a week and twice on Sunday

Mile High Mania
08-20-2009, 12:52 PM
Elway is the best and better than Marino. Six days a week and twice on Sunday

This times infinity.

kysirsoze
08-20-2009, 12:56 PM
Elway is the best and better than Marino. Six days a week and twice on Sunday

ROFL

Even if he's better than Marino (he's not) THE BEST!?!

JFC get some perspective!

Mr. Flopnuts
08-20-2009, 01:08 PM
God bless whoever came upon that information.

P.S - Fuck you horseteeth

PRIEST
08-20-2009, 01:09 PM
Filthy stinking liar.


And a good quarterback would've not gotten behind in the first place.




THIS

ClevelandBronco
08-20-2009, 01:10 PM
Filthy stinking liar.


And a good quarterback would've not gotten behind in the first place.

You mean like Marino and Unitas?

...Once Kacsmar standardized the definitions and corrected some media guide oversights, he discovered that Elway had 34 true comebacks. Marino had 36. If you prefer to count the game-winning drives that started with fourth-quarter ties, then Marino still has a 51-49 edge. Any way you slice it, Marino is the real “comeback” king.

Elway may not even be second. Johnny Unitas was credited with 31 comebacks by Colts media guides, but they only counted regular-season comebacks, while Elway and Marino both got credit for playoff games. That means Unitas doesn’t get credit for the 1958 championship (the “Greatest Game Ever Played”), and Kacsmar found two other comebacks for Unitas. That means that Unitas and Elway are tied, though with scant play-by-play data available for Unitas’ career, there may be a few errors in the data...

Mile High Mania
08-20-2009, 01:11 PM
ROFL

Even if he's better than Marino (he's not) THE BEST!?!

JFC get some perspective!

Elway = Greatest Football Quarterback Player Man of All Time

Mile High Mania
08-20-2009, 01:12 PM
You mean like Marino and Unitas?

I'm pretty sure Rainman was utilizing a bit of sarcasm there...

ClevelandBronco
08-20-2009, 01:16 PM
I'm pretty sure Rainman was utilizing a bit of sarcasm there...

I don't think I can agree. Few people despise John Elway the way Rainman does.

Am I wrong, Rainman?

Mr. Flopnuts
08-20-2009, 01:26 PM
Elway = Greatest Football Quarterback Player Man of All Time

LMAO ROFL But he never could get over the hump until he got Terdell Davis.

Garcia Bronco
08-20-2009, 01:33 PM
ROFL

Even if he's better than Marino (he's not) THE BEST!?!

JFC get some perspective!


Huh? I couldn't hear you on the account of our Super Bowl trophies making too much noise.

kysirsoze
08-20-2009, 01:33 PM
Elway = Greatest Football Quarterback Player Man of All Time

LMAO

kysirsoze
08-20-2009, 01:38 PM
Huh? I couldn't hear you on the account of our Super Bowl trophies making too much noise.

Was it the trophies or the sound of your entire organization imploding?

Anyway, I was just saying how Elway isn't even in the top 5 of QB's.

Pestilence
08-20-2009, 01:38 PM
Montana = Greatest Football Quarterback Player Man of All Time

FYP

Mr. Flopnuts
08-20-2009, 01:51 PM
FYP


FTW!!!

Garcia Bronco
08-20-2009, 02:51 PM
Was it the trophies or the sound of your entire organization imploding?

Anyway, I was just saying how Elway isn't even in the top 5 of QB's.

I think there are 3 names that are arguable...maybe 4 for the greatest QB of all time: Montana, Elway, and Johnny U. Honorable mention: Otto Graham, Terry Bradshaw. Anyone else either lacks the rings or the physical tools or the wins to be considered. If Elway isn't in your top 5, I would say you don't have the first clue. :)

Pestilence
08-20-2009, 02:52 PM
Elway is definitley in my top 5 *shudder* but he's still not the best. Montana holds that title.

ClevelandBronco
08-20-2009, 02:57 PM
...Honorable mention: Otto Graham...

Rep.

alanm
08-20-2009, 03:02 PM
Elway is the best and better than Marino. Six days a week and twice on SundayMarino threw a better sprial.

Mecca
08-20-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't think I can agree. Few people despise John Elway the way Rainman does.

Am I wrong, Rainman?

Dude Rainman hates Thurman Thomas cause he "made faces" it's seriously one of the funniest things.

alanm
08-20-2009, 03:06 PM
Huh? I couldn't hear you on the account of our Super Bowl trophies making too much noise.A couple of trophies won last century is all you have?
The Bronco's are in the same boat as the Chiefs. :D

Mecca
08-20-2009, 03:10 PM
Also Joe Montana is a bit overrated.

Garcia Bronco
08-20-2009, 03:11 PM
A couple of trophies won last century is all you have?
The Bronco's are in the same boat as the Chiefs. :D

:) 10< Infinity

POND_OF_RED
08-20-2009, 03:15 PM
Anyone else either lacks the rings or the physical tools or the wins to be considered. If Elway isn't in your top 5, I would say you don't have the first clue. :)

Aikman and Brady would like to place that one more ring they both earned and place it on there middle fingers to show you how they feel about this reDONKulous statement.

Garcia Bronco
08-20-2009, 03:19 PM
Aikman and Brady would like to place that one more ring they both earned and place it on there middle fingers to show you how they feel about this reDONKulous statement.

Brady doesn't have the physical tools of JU or JE, but once his career is over I would be surprised if he wasn't in the argument. Aikman would rank 10th on my list behind Favre, Marino at the very least.

Bwana
08-20-2009, 03:24 PM
Elway = Greatest Football Quarterback Player Man of All Time

ROFL

POND_OF_RED
08-20-2009, 03:25 PM
Brady doesn't have the physical tools of JU or JE, but once his career is over I would be surprised if he wasn't in the argument. Aikman would rank 10th on my list behind Favre, Marino at the very least.

Don't have a double standard and say Marino didn't have the rings then turn around and say Aikman didn't have the stats just so you think your precious horseface is the best of all time. I'd say Marino had the better skillset and Aikman was a better winner. Either way one of them is better.

Garcia Bronco
08-20-2009, 03:27 PM
Don't have a double standard and say Marino didn't have the rings then turn around and say Aikman didn't have the stats just so you think your precious horseface is the best of all time. I'd say Marino had the better skillset and Aikman was a better winner. Either way one of them is better.

It's a combination of things. Aikman has the rings, but doesn't have the longivity or the yards. Marino has the yards and longivity, but no rings. Elway and Montana for example have the longivity, the rings, the wins, and the yards.

Mecca
08-20-2009, 03:29 PM
It's a combination of things. Aikman has the rings, but doesn't have the longivity or the yards. Marino has the yards and longivity, but no rings. Elway and Montana for example have the longivity, the rings, the wins, and the yards.

You can argue alot of guys are better than Montana because he spent basically his entire career playing with superior talent.

Count Zarth
08-20-2009, 03:35 PM
You can argue alot of guys are better than Montana because he spent basically his entire career playing with superior talent.

Man, fuck you. Montana was ripping shit up BEFORE Roger Craig, Brent Jones, Jerry Rice and Ronnie Lott and he was ripping shit up AFTER he left those fucks.

Steve Young proved just how AWESOME Montana was by only winning ONE Super Bowl with the same guys on arguably MORE talented teams after Montana left.

You can talk shit on the shitty Chiefs but you will NOT talk shit on Joe fucking Montana. Shithead!

;)

Mecca
08-20-2009, 03:38 PM
No one is going to say Montana sucked or he doesn't belong in the HOF but he did play with a roster most QB's could only dream of.

Count Zarth
08-20-2009, 03:39 PM
No one is going to say Montana sucked or he doesn't belong in the HOF but he did play with a roster most QB's could only dream of.

So did Peyton Manning. So did Kurt Warner.

Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until he got a stacked team.

RNR
08-20-2009, 03:41 PM
Man, **** you. Montana was ripping shit up BEFORE Roger Craig, Brent Jones, Jerry Rice and Ronnie Lott and he was ripping shit up AFTER he left those ****s.

Steve Young proved just how AWESOME Montana was by only winning ONE Super Bowl with the same guys on arguably MORE talented teams after Montana left.

You can talk shit on the shitty Chiefs but you will NOT talk shit on Joe ****ing Montana. Shithead!

;)

Man those were the days Montana handing off to Ronnie........err..........throwing to Ronnie........wait what? :)

Count Zarth
08-20-2009, 03:43 PM
Man those were the days Montana handing off to Ronnie........err..........throwing to Ronnie........wait what? :)

I'm well aware Ronnie Lott was a safety, retard. But it's pertinent to Mecca's (retarded) thesis to point out that the 49ers had a stacked defense during Montana's later years.

RNR
08-20-2009, 03:56 PM
I'm well aware Ronnie Lott was a safety, retard. But it's pertinent to Mecca's (retarded) thesis to point out that the 49ers had a stacked defense during Montana's later years.

I added a smiley to let you know I was kidding with you. I do get a chuckle out of you calling me a retard. I have an average knowledge of football but have read enough from you to know it exceeds yours by quite a stretch. Oh and he was a cornerback before he moved to saftey :)

Count Zarth
08-20-2009, 04:00 PM
I don't give a shit about your smiley. The content of your post angered me. It was an attempt to paint me as ignorant. Fuck you.

RNR
08-20-2009, 04:01 PM
I don't give a shit about your smiley. The content of your post angered me. It was an attempt to paint me as ignorant. **** you.

LMAO

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:10 PM
Fuck you, Horseface. You son of a bitch. You could only win with t. davis and the fail gail along with some crisco. You mother fucking son of a bitch. You go to hell to hell you son of a bitch, and sell used cars while your wife is fucking the entire neighborhood. Fiuck you. Elwayl, I hope you fuck off and return with self-pillty, you mother fucking son of a bitch.

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:11 PM
Fuck you, Elway.

Valiant
08-20-2009, 04:12 PM
So did Peyton Manning. So did Kurt Warner.

Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until he got a stacked team.

The difference is Peyton made his players around him better.. When they left to go elsewhere they were not as great for some reason.. hmmm

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:12 PM
You horseface mother fucker. You should create a series with Sharpe titled, "Mr. Ed: The Next Generation." You goddamn whore of a son of a bitch.

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:14 PM
Fuck offf, horseface. GD, I hate the donkeys. GD horseface
s.

Count Zarth
08-20-2009, 04:14 PM
The difference is Peyton made his players around him better.. When they left to go elsewhere they were not as great for some reason.. hmmm

Wait, are you seriously trying to imply that Montana didn't make the players around him better?

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:15 PM
Fuck you, horseface.

Mr. Flopnuts
08-20-2009, 04:16 PM
I don't give a shit about your smiley. The content of your post angered me. It was an attempt to paint me as ignorant. Fuck you.

LMAO

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:16 PM
Wait, are you seriously trying to imply that Montana didn't make the players around him better?


Montana is the greatest QB

Count Zarth
08-20-2009, 04:17 PM
Montana is the greatest QB

He was also way more handsome than Elway or Marino.

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:17 PM
Wait, are you seriously trying to imply that Montana didn't make the players around him better?


Montana is the greatest QB that ever lived. GC, I will lose all respect for you if you say otherwise.

Barret
08-20-2009, 04:18 PM
Ok I found this on ESPN when they are trying to bob up and down on Brady. If you can get past that point what do you think of this lists accuracy?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs07/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3209882

1. Johnny Unitas
2. Joe Montana
3. Tom Brady
4. Dan Marino
5. Peyton Manning
6. John Elway
7. Terry Bradshaw
8. Brett Favre
9. Otto Graham
10. Dan Fouts

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:20 PM
I hate the GD donkeys. Fuck off, donkey fans.


* Disclaimer: Nothing personal against donkey fans, I just hate donkey fans. You're okay, mile high and ClevelandBronco. I just hate the fucking donkeys. I hope you understand,

Crush
08-20-2009, 04:22 PM
Ok I found this on ESPN when they are trying to bob up and down on Brady. If you can get past that point what do you think of this lists accuracy?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs07/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3209882

1. Johnny Unitas
2. Joe Montana
3. Tom Brady
4. Dan Marino
5. Peyton Manning
6. John Elway
7. Terry Bradshaw
8. Brett Favre
9. Otto Graham
10. Dan Fouts



I'm sorry, but Joe is the best. You could beat the **** out of him for four quarters and he would still beat your ass in the final two minutes. We will never see another Joe Montana. That is a fact, Jack.

Boon
08-20-2009, 04:38 PM
**** you, Horseface. You son of a bitch. You could only win with t. davis and the fail gail along with some crisco. You mother ****ing son of a bitch. You go to hell to hell you son of a bitch, and sell used cars while your wife is ****ing the entire neighborhood. Fiuck you. Elwayl, I hope you **** off and return with self-pillty, you mother ****ing son of a bitch.

This.

Buzzsaw
08-20-2009, 04:38 PM
Montana is the greatest QB

Not just best QB, best player to ever play, at any position. IMHO of course.

Boon
08-20-2009, 04:39 PM
**** you, horseface.

Boon
08-20-2009, 04:39 PM
**** you, elway

kysirsoze
08-20-2009, 05:02 PM
Ok I found this on ESPN when they are trying to bob up and down on Brady. If you can get past that point what do you think of this lists accuracy?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs07/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3209882

1. Johnny Unitas
2. Joe Montana
3. Tom Brady
4. Dan Marino
5. Peyton Manning
6. John Elway
7. Terry Bradshaw
8. Brett Favre
9. Otto Graham
10. Dan Fouts

Well ESPN couldn't be wrong. I guess that settles it. Fuck you Elway.

Pestilence
08-20-2009, 05:05 PM
Ok I found this on ESPN when they are trying to bob up and down on Brady. If you can get past that point what do you think of this lists accuracy?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs07/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3209882

1. Johnny Unitas
2. Joe Montana
3. Tom Brady
4. Dan Marino
5. Peyton Manning
6. John Elway
7. Terry Bradshaw
8. Brett Favre
9. Otto Graham
10. Dan Fouts

<a href="http://ihasahotdog.com"><img class="mine_4240645" style="word-spacing:4240645px;font-size:4240645px;" src="http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/128874496505848355.jpg" alt="Wait I got a better idea. How 'bout no?" /></a><br />see more <a href="http://ihasahotdog.com">dog and puppy pictures</a>

KCChiefsMan
08-20-2009, 05:06 PM
this article is stupid, we all know that Elway was great at 4th quarter comebacks and is probably the 2nd best ever at that. The first goes to Montana, he did that shit in Superbowls

Halfcan
08-20-2009, 05:27 PM
elgay is sooo over rated its pathetic-he should not even be in the top 20 as far as great QB's

Pestilence
08-20-2009, 05:29 PM
elgay is sooo over rated its pathetic-he should not even be in the top 20 as far as great QB's

:spock:

orangeuawitch
08-20-2009, 05:34 PM
Is there such a thing as a pro cheerleader that is not hot?

JD10367
08-20-2009, 05:35 PM
I think it's hard to debate "best quarterback". So much is involved with the team they had around them, and the teams they played, and the era they played in.

I think the top group is pretty clear, in no particular order: Joe Montana, Dan Marino, John Elway, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Sammy Baugh. And you could make "honorable mention" cases for anyone from Steve Young to Roger Staubach to Len Dawson to Ken Stabler to Dan Fouts to even Ben Roethlisberger. Kurt Warner. Sonny Jurgensen. George Blanda. Drew Bledsoe. Donovan McNabb. There are a lot of QBs who, in their prime, I would be happy to see leading my team.

I guess it comes down to what qualities you want. You want a strong arm, sure, but almost all good quarterbacks have that. You want some mobility, or at least escapability, but that pocket presence has more to do with an awareness than any natural-born speed; guys like Manning and Brady are slower than molasses but seem to be able to "sense" the pressure. You want accuracy, of course. But, IMO, the most important thing you want is coolness under pressure and the ability to deliver when it's most important. Which is why I rate guys like Montana and Brady a little heavier than the "naturally gifteds" like Marino and Manning who, despite having the tools, just didn't get it done quite as often as they should have if you look at their talents. We can't help but rate those guys a little lower for only winning one, or no, Super Bowls, just like non-Bronco fans find it a little easier to point at Elway and say, "Yeah, if he was so great, how come he couldn't get it done until he had a kick-ass running game?" And I think we tend to rate the unheralded guys a little higher. Yeah, it might just be 'cause I'm a Patriots homer, but I think someone like Brady (picked in the 6th round, unheralded, not handed anything) over Manning (picked first overall, the "golden boy", praised up and down, handed the keys to the kingdom). And it's why someone like Roethlisberger is intriguing; doesn't have the typical skill set, looks uncoordinated and sort of Favre- or Bradshaw-like sometimes, didn't come from a big-name school, yet somehow manages to avoid getting tackled and makes things happens and wins frigging Super Bowls.

listopencil
08-20-2009, 07:50 PM
http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/atlarge/sour%20grapes2.jpg



...and fuck your smileys, I scoff at them.

milkman
08-20-2009, 08:16 PM
No one is going to say Montana sucked or he doesn't belong in the HOF but he did play with a roster most QB's could only dream of.

And yet, when he left the 9ers and joined the Chiefs, he took the scrubs on offense around him to the AFC Championship game.

To discount him because of the talent around him is misguided, at best.

Every single great QB who won championships were all surrounded by supeior talent.

milkman
08-20-2009, 08:17 PM
elgay is sooo over rated its pathetic-he should not even be in the top 20 as far as great QB's

Why am I not surprised by this post?

milkman
08-20-2009, 08:19 PM
My first thought upon opening and reading the thread OP was this is history, why the **** do we give a rat's ass about any of this?

KCTitus
08-20-2009, 08:22 PM
And yet, when he left the 9ers and joined the Chiefs, he took the scrubs on offense around him to the AFC Championship game.

Exactly, Montana is the only quarterback in the last 20 years to give Marty a playoff win. That's some rarified air.

Rain Man
08-20-2009, 11:50 PM
Man, **** you. Montana was ripping shit up BEFORE Roger Craig, Brent Jones, Jerry Rice and Ronnie Lott and he was ripping shit up AFTER he left those ****s.

Steve Young proved just how AWESOME Montana was by only winning ONE Super Bowl with the same guys on arguably MORE talented teams after Montana left.

You can talk shit on the shitty Chiefs but you will NOT talk shit on Joe ****ing Montana. Shithead!

;)


I think Montana is the perfect example of a guy who created stars at other positions. How many of his teammates are in the Hall of Fame, yet they all have a host of pro bowls? Roger Craig, Ricky Watters, Tom Rathman, Brent Jones, Jesse Sapolu, Randy Cross, John Taylor, Harris Barton, Guy McIntyre... the list goes on. Other than Jerry Rice, Montana had no other Hall of Famers on his offense.

And his defense? Same deal. Ronnie Lott's in, of course, but Dwight Hicks, Carlton Williamson, Eric Wright, Keena Turner, that shotputting nose tackle, Charles Haley...I can't even name any other linebackers or linemen. Maybe Fred Dean was there at that time and he's in, but we all know that was an administrative error because seriously, Fred Dean?

Montana had Rice and he dragged a bunch of other guys to pro bowls.

Count Zarth
08-21-2009, 12:02 AM
I like how Rain Man can take a profanity-filled post and make a competent follow up with a G-rated response.

Valiant
08-21-2009, 12:53 AM
Wait, are you seriously trying to imply that Montana didn't make the players around him better?

No I am saying that quite a few people think Peyton is only good because of his WRs and RBs.. The guy makes them look better then they are.. Montana did this also, hell he took us to the AFC championship game..

kysirsoze
08-21-2009, 01:05 AM
No I am saying that quite a few people think Peyton is only good because of his WRs and RBs.. The guy makes them look better then they are.. Montana did this also, hell he took us to the AFC championship game..

Look at Edge.