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View Full Version : Science Michio Kaku: Is our "Universe" merely a "white hole" on the back of a "black hole"?


jAZ
08-23-2009, 10:31 AM
This was well worth the 10 minutes (if you like this stuff) if only for the idea that maybe our expanding universe is merely a "white hole" on the back side of another universe's black hole and that our "big bang" was possibly the formation of that black/white hole in a multiverse.

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Priest31kc
08-23-2009, 11:10 AM
Wow, very interesting. Good post. I've always been VERY interested and amazed by space, and always watch those Universe shows on the History Channel whenever they're on. I dont know what to think of this theory, if true, than wow.

Jenson71
08-23-2009, 11:32 AM
Buuuttt.....Bruno wasn't killed by the Church for "saying precisely these things." State authorities, directed by states, would burn people, not the Church. And Bruno was condemned by the Inquisition for saying things like Christ was a magician (not God) and other similar theological opinions condemned by the 'club' he belonged to (you would expect a biologist to condemn the errors of a creationist-filled article, no? You should).

Kaku, like Carl Sagan, is well known for bringing complex science to the lay person through popular media (he's good at it), but sheesh, you can't just get that sloppy with some information, even if you're not a historian or understand Church-secular relations or theological disputes. It's simply not accurate.

Ari Chi3fs
08-23-2009, 12:55 PM
There are a couple awesome movie/documentaries on this type of subject that I recently watched.

The Voice

Spirit Space

Good shit.

beach tribe
08-23-2009, 12:58 PM
I believe that there is no end to anything. How can there be? The only reality that can be possible IMO is infinity of everything. I believe there are an infinite number of universes, and that, yes, there is probably something bigger than a universe. But I really don't believe in the sizes of anything. I guess, yeah, somethings are bigger than others, but I don't really believe that something is big, or small, because it's all relative. If there is a creator of all this, which I also believe there has to be, and why does that have too sound crazy, when you think about something like this? Then he would be on the level of an atom, or of a multiverse. Kind of like just looking at a CPU screen, and hitting the zoom button. Well, that's kind of silly, but you get what I'm saying.
And I believe in God, but nothing that a scientist ever says will make me not believe in God. I think religions are the ones who pigeon hole what God is or isn't. Not the scientists.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 01:20 PM
I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of infinite.

beach tribe
08-23-2009, 01:24 PM
I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of infinite.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think that there is an end. Like once you get to the end, what's on the other side of the wall.

I cannot grasp the concept of nothing. There just cannot be nothingness. There is still going to be an empty space, and scientists have proven time, and time again, that where there is nothing, there is something. you just have to look a little harder.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 01:25 PM
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think that there is an end. Like once you get to the end, what's on the other side of the wall.

I cannot grasp the concept of nothing. There just cannot be nothingness. There is still going to be an empty space, and scientists have proven time, and time again, that where there is nothing, there is something. you just have to look a little harder.
Circle?

I'm much more of a mind to believe the concept that if you travel long enough you will end up back where you started.

beach tribe
08-23-2009, 01:26 PM
Circle?
What's outside of the circle?

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 01:28 PM
What's outside of the circle?
I dunno. But how can something never end?

beach tribe
08-23-2009, 01:33 PM
I dunno. But how can something never end?

I dunno either.
How can it end? How can there be an end?

Space=time. It is impossible for it to end. If you reach the end, what is the end? A wall? A barrior? And if you reach that barrior, what is on the other side of it? More.

beach tribe
08-23-2009, 01:35 PM
JMO too BTW.

Hell, I have no Idea.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 01:49 PM
JMO too BTW.

Hell, I have no Idea.
It will make your brain hurt if you think about it too much. :D

beach tribe
08-23-2009, 01:58 PM
It will make your brain hurt if you think about it too much. :D

Yep.

Silock
08-23-2009, 02:59 PM
I dunno either.
How can it end? How can there be an end?

Space=time. It is impossible for it to end. If you reach the end, what is the end? A wall? A barrior? And if you reach that barrior, what is on the other side of it? More.

So, everything that IS just has always "been" there? I'm not sure I buy that, but I don't have any other explanation for it.

BTW, Michio Kaku is wicked smart. I dig his books, too.

Priest31kc
08-23-2009, 03:25 PM
So, everything that IS just has always "been" there? I'm not sure I buy that, but I don't have any other explanation for it.

BTW, Michio Kaku is wicked smart. I dig his books, too.

yeah hes on alot of the space shows on the History channel, he does seem smart.

googlegoogle
08-23-2009, 03:26 PM
Brian Greene's book. Space is another field. So matter makes space/gravity.

And i don't agree with Michio on black holes being tunnels to some new universe.

bowener
08-23-2009, 03:48 PM
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think that there is an end. Like once you get to the end, what's on the other side of the wall.

I cannot grasp the concept of nothing. There just cannot be nothingness. There is still going to be an empty space, and scientists have proven time, and time again, that where there is nothing, there is something. you just have to look a little harder.

There can be "nothingness" in a particular area, especially on the small scale (such as quantum), which has created tons of problems for physics such as relativity, which deals with the large scale.

On a side note, one reason that you cannot conceive of nothingness is because your brain (our human brains) cannot do this. Its like imagining you are dead, its impossible. As long as you are alive there will be a conscience stream flowing and firing throughout your brain. So, you cannot imagine what it would be like to find yourself absent this stream of conscience, as is the case with death, and you cannot imagine complete emptiness or nothingness, because the brain has no way of knowing that.

So, everything that IS just has always "been" there? I'm not sure I buy that, but I don't have any other explanation for it.

BTW, Michio Kaku is wicked smart. I dig his books, too.

Why cant it have always been there? Thats the killer. We assume that there was nothing and then there was something, but why? There is no reason to assume that other than religion, and in that case there was God before there was anything, so how did that happen?

Either way you run into the same problem if you are attempting to answer why there is something instead of nothing, but really you should not ask that and see that there is something and it is necessary that it always existed (since we are certain that we, our universe, exists). What I am getting at is that since we are here, our universe, it seems a lot more likely that whatever this universe may be, has always been here, without a time of absence. Even the dreaded and flawed razor of Occam would lend itself to supporting this.

It happens to also be the case that no matter what our universe is (multi or singular) there was never a TIME that it did not exist, the reason being that without space their is no time, and so the instant the bubble burst and expansion began, time congruently began. So, there was no time before space anyhow.

Circle?

I'm much more of a mind to believe the concept that if you travel long enough you will end up back where you started.

There was a theory once that our universe is like a soccer ball, a dodecahedron (12 sides). If one were to hypothetically fly toward the edge of the universe, one of these 12 faces, they would find themselves forever flying without end through the universe, unwittingly setting themselves on an endless path traveling from face 1 and popping out at face 12, just like in pacman. If there were a raod marker of course, one would realize their travels were taking them in a 4D "circular" path. I always found that fascinating... but I believe that wont work with the ever expanding faster than light boundaries of our current universe.

BTW, I fucking love this shit!

bowener
08-23-2009, 04:02 PM
Brian Green's book. Space is another field. So matter makes space/gravity.

And i don't agree with Michio on black holes being tunnels to some new universe.

Its not a tunnel, though it is...

We all know the fact from high school that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, but rather is converted into some other energy, such as heat.

Well, the problem we have with infinitely (or near) dense black holes is that all the matter they suck in is not being destroyed, but rather going somewhere. So, imagine a black hole, absolute darkness, no light escapes, well the opposite must be true then as well (or certainly is plausible). The backside of this hole is really just a giant bubble or garbage bag, that gets more and more full of particle and energy as the hole sucks it in with its massive gravity. In turn this bag or bubble begins expanding as it fills, pushing everything outward and a phenomenal and possibly faster-than-light speed.

It may also be the case that these bubbles have some sort of equilibrium to where the hole may close and the bubble may "fall off" on its own, or like he discussed, a single bubble could bifurcate and become two, such as a cell... they can also merge possibly, like a soap bubble.

It is and isnt a new universe. Its kind of a recycling center on an unimaginable scale. Literally on the scale of multi-universal.

He didnt talk about this, but I always wonder if it were like a water balloon. Lets say I have a limited amount of water pressure and/or water that I can put into a balloon. As my balloon fills with this water it begins to stretch and expand massively, and as the water begins to stop filling the end, due to the massive amount of pressure pushing back from the filled balloon, an equilibrium, a weak spot in the balloon membrane gives way to the pressure and rips, allowing the water to spill out. Imagine then, that as the water is spilling out of my balloon it is simultaneously filling another, or possibly even the original water source (which would in turn create a seemingly endless cycle of refilling and spilling).

What is most interesting to me from what Kaku was talking about is that while my balloon is filling, there may even be another balloon within my balloon that I cannot even see, but its there, and its displacement can be measured via gravitational waves (or gravitons in M-theory). His descrption of 2D vs. 3D vs. 4D is fun stuff too, and stemming from this his take on The Invisible Man.

Sorry to type so much, I realy love talking about and pondering upon these ideas.

Silock
08-23-2009, 09:00 PM
Brian Green's book. Space is another field. So matter makes space/gravity.

Brian Greene is another guy of whom I'm a big fan.

TEX
08-23-2009, 09:06 PM
This stuff is so cool - I just never have been able to understand it.

Silock
08-23-2009, 09:11 PM
Why cant it have always been there? Thats the killer. We assume that there was nothing and then there was something, but why? There is no reason to assume that other than religion, and in that case there was God before there was anything, so how did that happen?

There are plenty of reasons to assume it, and the main one being "Why the hell not?" No one has ANY solid evidence for it or contrary to it. It's just a matter of opinion. As for God being there before anything, that's sort of the point of God. If God were only able to experience time in a single dimension, as we do, it wouldn't be very much fun being God.

What I am getting at is that since we are here, our universe, it seems a lot more likely that whatever this universe may be, has always been here, without a time of absence. Even the dreaded and flawed razor of Occam would lend itself to supporting this.

Yet, we know that nothing in our universe happens without a cause (even if the effect comes AFTER the cause, as happens with many quantum particles), which necessitates SOME kind of beginning. Whether or not that can be applied to other universes is unknown.

It happens to also be the case that no matter what our universe is (multi or singular) there was never a TIME that it did not exist, the reason being that without space their is no time, and so the instant the bubble burst and expansion began, time congruently began. So, there was no time before space anyhow.

Only to the observer inside the universe, not external to it.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 09:13 PM
"The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene was a decent read

StcChief
08-23-2009, 09:27 PM
racist... /Obama.

googlegoogle
08-23-2009, 10:06 PM
Its not a tunnel, though it is...

We all know the fact from high school that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, but rather is converted into some other energy, such as heat.

Well, the problem we have with infinitely (or near) dense black holes is that all the matter they suck in is not being destroyed, but rather going somewhere. So, imagine a black hole, absolute darkness, no light escapes, well the opposite must be true then as well (or certainly is plausible). The backside of this hole is really just a giant bubble or garbage bag, that gets more and more full of particle and energy as the hole sucks it in with its massive gravity. In turn this bag or bubble begins expanding as it fills, pushing everything outward and a phenomenal and possibly faster-than-light speed.

It may also be the case that these bubbles have some sort of equilibrium to where the hole may close and the bubble may "fall off" on its own, or like he discussed, a single bubble could bifurcate and become two, such as a cell... they can also merge possibly, like a soap bubble.

It is and isnt a new universe. Its kind of a recycling center on an unimaginable scale. Literally on the scale of multi-universal.

He didnt talk about this, but I always wonder if it were like a water balloon. Lets say I have a limited amount of water pressure and/or water that I can put into a balloon. As my balloon fills with this water it begins to stretch and expand massively, and as the water begins to stop filling the end, due to the massive amount of pressure pushing back from the filled balloon, an equilibrium, a weak spot in the balloon membrane gives way to the pressure and rips, allowing the water to spill out. Imagine then, that as the water is spilling out of my balloon it is simultaneously filling another, or possibly even the original water source (which would in turn create a seemingly endless cycle of refilling and spilling).

What is most interesting to me from what Kaku was talking about is that while my balloon is filling, there may even be another balloon within my balloon that I cannot even see, but its there, and its displacement can be measured via gravitational waves (or gravitons in M-theory). His descrption of 2D vs. 3D vs. 4D is fun stuff too, and stemming from this his take on The Invisible Man.

Sorry to type so much, I realy love talking about and pondering upon these ideas.

google plank space and black holes. I don't agree that there is some new universe in a black hole. It's just a supercondensed form of matter. It is matter that has been converted to another form and all the space between those atoms removed-maybe pure strings or something else. It's a distant cousin to the superatom of the big bang.

"Bob" Dobbs
08-23-2009, 10:14 PM
Doesn't everyone come up with a similar theory the first time they get really stoned?

"Bob" Dobbs
08-23-2009, 10:15 PM
Although I DO try to follow cosmology and it IS really really cool.

morphius
08-23-2009, 10:21 PM
I haven't listened to this yet, but I thought the latest theories on black holes had them slowly bleeding off particles until they disappear.

Miles
08-23-2009, 10:27 PM
Doesn't everyone come up with a similar theory the first time they get really stoned?


That means that...
our whole solar system...
could be, like...
one tiny atom in the fingernail
of some other giant being.

This is too much!

That means...
-one tiny atom in my fingernail could be--
-Could be one little...

tiny universe.

Could l buy some pot from you?

Jenson71
08-23-2009, 10:44 PM
This stuff is so cool - I just never have been able to understand it.

:D

I'm reading two biographies about Einstein right now, and general relativity sounds great if you know what it means. I got that there's the box in outer space, and the penny drops. Oookaay... the rest is fuzzy. Why's it important? I have no idea. I didn't even catch what special relativity is, except something about Albert riding on the end of a lightbeam. All I did while reading that is picture him sitting on top of it, waving a cowboy hat like Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove.

It always picks up though when they start talking about him and his cousin starting a relationship. And WWI events.

MoreLemonPledge
08-24-2009, 03:20 AM
So what comes out of a brown hole?

stumppy
08-24-2009, 03:32 AM
Doesn't everyone come up with a similar theory the first time they get really stoned?


YUP

I worked on that theory for many years. Never could quite get it to flesh out.:D

Braincase
08-24-2009, 05:41 AM
Makes sense to me.

KC Jones
08-24-2009, 06:08 AM
Stan Lee had this shit figured out decades ago. Stupid physicists.

Baby Lee
08-24-2009, 11:58 AM
google plank space and black holes. I don't agree that there is some new universe in a black hole. It's just a supercondensed form of matter. It is matter that has been converted to another form and all the space between those atoms removed-maybe pure strings or something else. It's a distant cousin to the superatom of the big bang.

That was my first thought, too.

tooge
08-24-2009, 12:15 PM
good video. I was watching a space program last night and he was one of the interviewees. It was about string theory, some type of gravity theory, and how the belief is now that there are 11 dimensions, 10 plus one for time. Cool stuff.

Rausch
08-25-2009, 03:58 AM
I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of infinite.

Think of it this way - physics and cosmology are the study of harmony on a grand scale.

Pioli Zombie
08-25-2009, 05:47 AM
Bugeater is the ass hole.
Posted via Mobile Device

Amnorix
08-25-2009, 06:10 AM
Buuuttt.....Bruno wasn't killed by the Church for "saying precisely these things." State authorities, directed by states, would burn people, not the Church.

Without focusing on the facts of this circumstance -- while what you state above is true in a hypertechnical sense, it's very weak reasoning. You really can't just absolve the Church on this.

big nasty kcnut
08-25-2009, 06:23 AM
crisis on infinate universe covered this a little bit.

EyePod
08-25-2009, 06:26 AM
I believe that there is no end to anything. How can there be? The only reality that can be possible IMO is infinity of everything. I believe there are an infinite number of universes, and that, yes, there is probably something bigger than a universe. But I really don't believe in the sizes of anything. I guess, yeah, somethings are bigger than others, but I don't really believe that something is big, or small, because it's all relative. If there is a creator of all this, which I also believe there has to be, and why does that have too sound crazy, when you think about something like this? Then he would be on the level of an atom, or of a multiverse. Kind of like just looking at a CPU screen, and hitting the zoom button. Well, that's kind of silly, but you get what I'm saying.
And I believe in God, but nothing that a scientist ever says will make me not believe in God. I think religions are the ones who pigeon hole what God is or isn't. Not the scientists.

You have to believe in god if there's an infinite universe. The probability of anything is 1. There's a definite chance that in an infinite universe, there's at least 1 planet that is entirely made up of GoChiefs that are connected through anal penetration. It has to be that way.

big nasty kcnut
08-25-2009, 06:27 AM
KC Jones fuck stan lee it was the flash of two earth. that brought it up first.

jAZ
08-25-2009, 07:22 AM
...if there's an infinite universe. The probability of anything is 1. There's a definite chance that in an infinite universe, there's at least 1 planet that is entirely made up of GoChiefs that are connected through anal penetration. It has to be that way.

Way to really bring home the concept of infinity. I'll be sending you the dry cleaning bill for my brain, though.

petegz28
08-25-2009, 08:57 AM
I got ripped in the DC thread about a year ago when I used the term "multiverse".

petegz28
08-25-2009, 09:03 AM
A "wHite" hole.....

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Hydrae
08-25-2009, 09:48 AM
I have always been fascinated by the theory my dad passed along to me many years ago. It seems that is you calculate the density of our universe, it is about the same as for a black hole. So we may just live in a giant black hole that is within an even bigger universe. :D

jidar
08-25-2009, 09:51 AM
I have always been fascinated by the theory my dad passed along to me many years ago. It seems that is you calculate the density of our universe, it is about the same as for a black hole. So we may just live in a giant black hole that is within an even bigger universe. :D

Well your dad was blowing smoke up your ass I'm afraid.

Hydrae
08-25-2009, 09:58 AM
Well your dad was blowing smoke up your ass I'm afraid.

Care to elucidate?

I believe this was a theory he had read in Scientific American years ago. Certainy not going to say it is fact or that thinking may have moved in a different direction in the intervening years.

Fish
08-25-2009, 10:32 AM
I have always been fascinated by the theory my dad passed along to me many years ago. It seems that is you calculate the density of our universe, it is about the same as for a black hole. So we may just live in a giant black hole that is within an even bigger universe. :D

We don't really know enough about either to confidently determine their densities. We're not even sure if our universe is an open, closed, or flat universe. So it's really hard to determine correct density without knowing if it's expanding forever, shrinking, or will expand to some finite level and stop expanding. There are formulas for determining density, but they're dependent on what type of universe we're living in.

Black hole density is equally fuzzy. Some say that black hole density may be infinite or close to it. Others say that is not possible.

Also, considering that the black holes are contained within the universe, it's hard to compare the densities of two things when one exists inside the other.

petegz28
08-25-2009, 11:05 AM
We don't really know enough about either to confidently determine their densities. We're not even sure if our universe is an open, closed, or flat universe. So it's really hard to determine correct density without knowing if it's expanding forever, shrinking, or will expand to some finite level and stop expanding. There are formulas for determining density, but they're dependent on what type of universe we're living in.

Black hole density is equally fuzzy. Some say that black hole density may be infinite or close to it. Others say that is not possible.

Also, considering that the black holes are contained within the universe, it's hard to compare the densities of two things when one exists inside the other.

Well, according to the OP, a question to be asked is whether or not the black hole are within the universe or on top of the universe?

Halfcan
08-25-2009, 02:15 PM
String theory is very interesting.