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KCBOSS1
08-23-2009, 04:21 PM
I heard somebody talking about LJ being sluggish and soft during the game thread and have been thinking about it since. I know that a lot of guys here are hard on him and I hope that he proves us wrong. But I've heard him two or three times before and after getting his contract saying that he deserved the money because the life span and punishment of a runningback is short. He referred to Earl Campbell and other damaged players in the interviews. It seems like he has run soft since the contract, like he was just shooting for the guaranteed. At first, he was talking about records he was wanting to set while running behind Priest....haven't heard anymore of that. It seems like he's down quick, not initiating contact. This may have been discussed on here, but I'm just curious about some opinions on here about this.

Mecca
08-23-2009, 04:22 PM
He set the record for carries..he then signed a big contract, it makes perfect sense why he isn't really good anymore.

Even without the money I'm not really sure he'd be much better that many carries destroys a back.

KCBOSS1
08-23-2009, 04:26 PM
I know that they beat him down that year. but still, does he deteriorate that fast? I guess what I'm asking is does he care anymore? He's not initiating contact anymore and then getting up with the "what you gonna do?" attitude. I don't know. I think he's like release me...I'm good for good.

KCBOSS1
08-23-2009, 04:28 PM
He seems to want out of KC regardless of who's coaching. In his interviews, he's doing the player "politically correct", "yeah, there's a commitment to win in the coaching staff" mess that's similar to what we heard when herm took over. It's all the same bull.

Mecca
08-23-2009, 04:30 PM
He's a 30 year old RB with a huge carry year if you can go find me a RB that was productive that late in his career that hadn't either split carries, been on a team that purposely limited his carries by throwing more etc I'll be surprised.

Eddie George was done before 30 because of the abuse he took. Even a guy like Brian Westbrook is starting to breakdown, it's the nature of the position.

Von Dumbass
08-23-2009, 04:34 PM
He's a 30 year old RB with a huge carry year if you can go find me a RB that was productive that late in his career that hadn't either split carries, been on a team that purposely limited his carries by throwing more etc I'll be surprised.

Eddie George was done before 30 because of the abuse he took. Even a guy like Brian Westbrook is starting to breakdown, it's the nature of the position.

LT got more touches than anyone since he came into the league and he just recently started getting banged up. I think he should be pretty healthy this year though.

Mecca
08-23-2009, 04:36 PM
LT is breaking down also, part of what let him stay higher end longer was he wasn't as big and was more shifty so he avoided really getting blasted.

Plus his use in the passing game helped because instead of having 400 carries he'd have alot of receptions which also aren't as destructive to the body.

Any big between the tackles runner will have a very short lifespan.

milkman
08-23-2009, 04:39 PM
LT got more touches than anyone since he came into the league and he just recently started getting banged up. I think he should be pretty healthy this year though.

LT is retired, and he was a LB anyway.

Oh.....You mean Tomlinson, don't you?

Tomlinson has gotten a lot of touches, but he has rarely got more than 350 carries in a season.

Touching the ball as a receiver out in space isn't as punishing as taking a handoff and pounding the rock.

milkman
08-23-2009, 04:43 PM
He's a 30 year old RB with a huge carry year if you can go find me a RB that was productive that late in his career that hadn't either split carries, been on a team that purposely limited his carries by throwing more etc I'll be surprised.

Eddie George was done before 30 because of the abuse he took. Even a guy like Brian Westbrook is starting to breakdown, it's the nature of the position.

What you are not addressing is the fact that LJ doesn't run with any passion or desire.

These other RBs have/are deteriorated/ing, but they still showed the desire.

LJ has quit caring.

KCBOSS1
08-23-2009, 04:43 PM
I'm watching the game again. The 18 yard gain was a pretty decent run and he got up mouthing, which I usually hate, but could be an indicator of at least some fire.

pr_capone
08-23-2009, 04:46 PM
I'm watching the game again. The 18 yard gain was a pretty decent run and he got up mouthing, which I usually hate, but could be an indicator of at least some fire.

*I* could have run that ball for 18 yards through that hole and talked shit afterwards.

Look at other plays where he picks up both feet from the ground and glides into a hit. Also look for plays where his legs stop moving the second contact is made.

Perhaps he is taking it lightly because it is the pre-season but he has not shown me anything to be excited over.

Mecca
08-23-2009, 04:49 PM
If you wanna know where Larry Johnson stands as a power runner...watch the play where EJ Henderson tackles him from behind...he basically grabs a outside shoulder with each hand and throws him down.

KCBOSS1
08-23-2009, 04:51 PM
If you wanna know where Larry Johnson stands as a power runner...watch the play where EJ Henderson tackles him from behind...he basically grabs a outside shoulder with each hand and throws him down.

tha't exactly what I thought.

chiefs1111
08-23-2009, 04:53 PM
He's a 30 year old RB with a huge carry year if you can go find me a RB that was productive that late in his career that hadn't either split carries, been on a team that purposely limited his carries by throwing more etc I'll be surprised.

Eddie George was done before 30 because of the abuse he took. Even a guy like Brian Westbrook is starting to breakdown, it's the nature of the position.

Same thing with Jammal Anderson. After he set the record for most carries he got injured and was never the same after.

KCBOSS1
08-23-2009, 05:02 PM
I just find it interesting that he got the contract and guarantee and has been on the take-a-dive since. i could see it happening a few years later. Look at Bettis, Marcus Allen and other guys that ran with passion. Allen was slow when he was in KC, but he made up for it in passion and vision. I'm tellin you, LJ can still run, he just doesn't. Flashes here and there tell on him. From a fan's perspective I hate it. From his perspective, total mobility is a huge trade especially after watching the Earl Campbell interview a few years ago. But come on, at least give us a few years....at least earn the guarantee's worth.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 05:52 PM
Part of it's mental. When a RB gets into the league he's hungry and will blast into the line without regard to his body. As people get older they get less reckless, throw in the millions of dollars and a comfy lifestyle and the willingness to take the pain is considerably less. Imo.

LiL stumppy
08-23-2009, 05:55 PM
Even if Jim Brown ran behind our OL, he would disappoint you.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 06:10 PM
Even if Jim Brown ran behind our OL, he would disappoint you.
Implying that we expect too much?

Chocolate Hog
08-23-2009, 06:24 PM
When LJ gets tackled he still gets atleast a yard and we don't have another running back on the roster that can do that. LJ certainly isn't a every down running back though.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 06:29 PM
When LJ gets tackled he still gets at least a yard
Not true

Chocolate Hog
08-23-2009, 06:32 PM
Not true

The fuck it isn't who else can? Jackie Battle? He's garbage coudn't even get a yard aginst 3rd string defense. Kolby Smith already proven he can't either.

Molitoth
08-23-2009, 06:36 PM
LJ was running behind what was once one of the greatest Offensive Line units in NFL history when he was a great player. Give LJ a hole and he is a great back.... most RB's in this league will be.

The line he is running behind now will not open holes, and LJ is not a juke and dance player like Barry Sanders was. Until the play of the OL gets better, don't expect LJ to be the chiefs saviour.

Toad
08-23-2009, 06:44 PM
Is it just me or is LJ simply trying this year to be something that is not in his character - NICE. I don't think he is capable of playing well when he is "nice". Double edged sword for him b/c he needs to be nice to stay on the team, but play with a mean streak to be any good to us.

Chocolate Hog
08-23-2009, 06:46 PM
LJ was running behind what was once one of the greatest Offensive Line units in NFL history when he was a great player. Give LJ a hole and he is a great back.... most RB's in this league will be.

The line he is running behind now will not open holes, and LJ is not a juke and dance player like Barry Sanders was. Until the play of the OL gets better, don't expect LJ to be the chiefs saviour.

Funny thing is his yards per carry last year was pretty good. Before he got suspended his numbers weren't that bad.

LiL stumppy
08-23-2009, 06:57 PM
Implying that we expect too much?

No,implying no one is going to do great things behind this POS oline.

Deberg_1990
08-23-2009, 06:58 PM
Funny thing is his yards per carry last year was pretty good. Before he got suspended his numbers weren't that bad.

After he came back, he wasnt used much, but he did actually run the ball fairly well. He did have a few long runs.

Alphaman
08-23-2009, 07:15 PM
LJ has always been at his best when he's been able to get into a rhythm and wear the defense down. It's in the 3rd and 4th quarter when he's been able to break arm tackles because he's been able to wear the defense down. You won't see that in preseason.

Coogs
08-23-2009, 07:53 PM
LJ has always been at his best when he's been able to get into a rhythm and wear the defense down. It's in the 3rd and 4th quarter when he's been able to break arm tackles because he's been able to wear the defense down. You won't see that in preseason.Worst part of this scenario with LJ is that almost all of the carries in the first half leave us in 2nd and 9 then 3rd and 8, followed by a punt on 4th down.

TRR
08-23-2009, 08:03 PM
Molitoth said it best...

There is no mistery behind LJ's struggles. Fans talk about him running angry, or with passion. That's all a bunch of BS. The bottom line is that a line of Roaf, Waters, Weigmann, Shields, and Welbourn (or whoever at RT) and All Pro Tony Richardson were opening holes up the size of mountains for both Priest and LJ.

If the O Line opens holes, and FB's can get to the second level, any RB is going to put up some yards.

THE BOTTOM LINE is that any RB is only as good as his O Line in front of him. LJ can still be productive as can Charles and Battle if the holes are there. The second level is where natural ability comes into play...and most RB's at the NFL level have plenty of it...even at age 30.
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Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 08:07 PM
Worst part of this scenario with LJ is that almost all of the carries in the first half leave us in 2nd and 9 then 3rd and 8, followed by a punt on 4th down.
I hope that Haley/Gailey adapt to that situation and use the pass to setup the run early in the game. Do like Vermeil/Saunders did and pass first and use draw/sweeps instead of just running it up the gut. Then maybe in the 2nd half after the defensive lineman have been worn out by rushing the passer and chasing the sweeps and draws awhile we can bring in a fresh LJ and kick them in the teeth.

Mr. Krab
08-23-2009, 08:12 PM
Molitoth said it best...

There is no mistery behind LJ's struggles. Fans talk about him running angry, or with passion. That's all a bunch of BS. The bottom line is that a line of Roaf, Waters, Weigmann, Shields, and Welbourn (or whoever at RT) and All Pro Tony Richardson were opening holes up the size of mountains for both Priest and LJ.

If the O Line opens holes, and FB's can get to the second level, any RB is going to put up some yards.

THE BOTTOM LINE is that any RB is only as good as his O Line in front of him. LJ can still be productive as can Charles and Battle if the holes are there. The second level is where natural ability comes into play...and most RB's at the NFL level have plenty of it...even at age 30.
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Thanks Marty

Then we should just cut LJ because he's a prima donna pain-in-the-ass. I mean since the RB does not matter and since any ol' hack can carry the ball, we don't need a high paid running back at all.


running back doesn't matter
quarterback doesn't matter
wide receiver doesn't matter
Just worry about that OLine baby

~signed Marty Shottenheimer~

Dick Bull
08-23-2009, 08:18 PM
Thanks Marty

Then we should just cut LJ because he's a prima donna pain-in-the-ass. I mean since the RB does not matter and since any ol' hack can carry the ball, we don't need a high paid running back at all.


running back doesn't matter
quarterback doesn't matter
wide receiver doesn't matter
Just worry about that OLine baby

~signed Marty Shottenheimer~

running back doesn't matter if the oline can't run block
quarterback/wr don't matter if the oline can't pass block
It all starts on the line (pardon the cliche_

TRR
08-23-2009, 08:38 PM
Thanks Marty

Then we should just cut LJ because he's a prima donna pain-in-the-ass. I mean since the RB does not matter and since any ol' hack can carry the ball, we don't need a high paid running back at all.


running back doesn't matter
quarterback doesn't matter
wide receiver doesn't matter
Just worry about that OLine baby

~signed Marty Shottenheimer~

You missed the point completely.

You can have Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Earl Campbell as your backs, and if the O Line isn't creating running room, then those guys are just like any other back.

1,000 yard backs are a dime a dozen now days...the O Line is what makes them better. Every RB in the NFL has talent...but not every RB plays behind an O Line as talented as LJ did when he came in the league.
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milkman
08-23-2009, 09:02 PM
You missed the point completely.

You can have Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Earl Campbell as your backs, and if the O Line isn't creating running room, then those guys are just like any other back.

1,000 yard backs are a dime a dozen now days...the O Line is what makes them better. Every RB in the NFL has talent...but not every RB plays behind an O Line as talented as LJ did when he came in the league.
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Walter Payton ran behind one of the worst O-Lines you'll ever see in his first 5 years.
Tomlinson ran behind crap his first 2 or 3 years, as did Marshall Faulk and Barry Sanders, and earl camplbell.

The thing that seperates a great back from a good back is vision and patience, both attributes that LJ lacks.

The thing that seperates a good back from mediocre back is desire, another attribute that LJ lacks.

Skip Towne
08-23-2009, 09:07 PM
Walter Payton ran behind one of the worst O-Lines you'll ever see in his first 5 years.
Tomlinson ran behind crap his first 2 or 3 years, as did Marshall Faulk and Barry Sanders, and earl camplbell.

The thing that seperates a great back from a good back is vision and patience, both attributes that LJ lacks.

The thing that seperates a good back from mediocre back is desire, another attribute that LJ lacks.

Why didn't you mention LJ is a dick?

milkman
08-23-2009, 09:13 PM
Why didn't you mention LJ is a dick?

I don't need to.

His name is Johnson.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2009, 09:15 PM
Walter Payton ran behind one of the worst O-Lines you'll ever see in his first 5 years.
Tomlinson ran behind crap his first 2 or 3 years, as did Marshall Faulk and Barry Sanders, and earl camplbell.

The thing that seperates a great back from a good back is vision and patience, both attributes that LJ lacks.

The thing that seperates a good back from mediocre back is desire, another attribute that LJ lacks.

This.

Deberg_1990
08-23-2009, 09:26 PM
Walter Payton ran behind one of the worst O-Lines you'll ever see in his first 5 years.
Tomlinson ran behind crap his first 2 or 3 years, as did Marshall Faulk and Barry Sanders, and earl camplbell.

The thing that seperates a great back from a good back is vision and patience, both attributes that LJ lacks.

The thing that seperates a good back from mediocre back is desire, another attribute that LJ lacks.

Agreed. Its too bad too, because honestly LJ has superb natural talent. Look at the way he ran in 05/06. Especially that run he had in 05. He did look like the next "special" back there for awhile.

TRR
08-23-2009, 10:47 PM
Walter Payton ran behind one of the worst O-Lines you'll ever see in his first 5 years.
Tomlinson ran behind crap his first 2 or 3 years, as did Marshall Faulk and Barry Sanders, and earl camplbell.

The thing that seperates a great back from a good back is vision and patience, both attributes that LJ lacks.

The thing that seperates a good back from mediocre back is desire, another attribute that LJ lacks.

That's complete BS. That Bears squad had 10 times the O Line the Chiefs do now. Bottom line is that if the RB doesn't have a hole, he isn't going ANYWHERE...PERIOD...END OF STORY. He can have all the vision in the world, and the greatest of athletic ability that God can give. But if he doesn't have consistent holes, he will look like what LJ looks like now.

The RB doesn't make the O Line...The O Line makes the RB. Your an idiot if you think otherwise.

Desire is a word used by talking heads...so is running angry....and passion...Hit the holes the O Line opens and get downhill. That other bullshit is for media types.

Macroach
08-23-2009, 10:53 PM
I don't need to.

His name is Johnson.

:LOL:

Chocolate Hog
08-23-2009, 11:22 PM
After he came back, he wasnt used much, but he did actually run the ball fairly well. He did have a few long runs.

Yea he isn't an every down back but if the Chiefs had another good running back LJ really would be good.

OctoberFart
08-24-2009, 12:27 AM
If you wanna know where Larry Johnson stands as a power runner...watch the play where EJ Henderson tackles him from behind...he basically grabs a outside shoulder with each hand and throws him down.

Not to mention he should of had the speed to be on the corner so Henderson couldn't even get to him. 400 carries is the death of all backs. You guys didn't want to admit it back then but the proof is in the pudding. Diaper boy is slightly better than average now with a top dollar deal.

DBOSHO
08-24-2009, 02:07 AM
Not to mention he should of had the speed to be on the corner so Henderson couldn't even get to him. 400 carries is the death of all backs. You guys didn't want to admit it back then but the proof is in the pudding. Diaper boy is slightly better than average now with a top dollar deal.

lets not jump to conclusions just because larry carried the rock like 10 times inthe preseason.

Mecca
08-24-2009, 02:11 AM
He's basically done if you start comparing him to the rest of the leagues backs he's very very low on the list. There are some teams who's 2nd backs we'd be better off with...

And for the comment earlier, RB's really don't matter, there's so many good backs that it's really become a dime a dozen position.

salame
08-24-2009, 02:11 AM
he needs to be in a 3rd and 4th quarter role like marion barber
only less talented

Mecca
08-24-2009, 02:13 AM
he needs to be in a 3rd and 4th quarter role like marion barber
only less talented

Other than Barber still runs hard.

salame
08-24-2009, 02:14 AM
yeah that was the less talented part

Mecca
08-24-2009, 02:16 AM
Honest question, is there any team out there that LJ is better than their starter?

Hell I can name a few teams where he isn't even better than their "spell" back.

salame
08-24-2009, 02:17 AM
the seahawks?

Mecca
08-24-2009, 02:19 AM
The Seahawks is about the only one I could think of...that's pretty bad LJ has fallen into the 30's for RB position in the league.

salame
08-24-2009, 02:22 AM
Both backs in minnesota are better
Both backs in atlanta
Both backs in Tennessee
Both backs in Carolina
Both in New york (giants and jets ) all 3 on jets
Both in San Diego
Both in San Fran
Both in Philly
all 3 in Dallas

I am going to stop because I used to really love lj and this is kind of sad

Mecca
08-24-2009, 02:26 AM
Both in Buffalo also...

salame
08-24-2009, 02:40 AM
I was on the fence there

MoreLemonPledge
08-24-2009, 03:11 AM
I do think LJ could start for either of the Ohio teams.

Cedric Benson still blows and Jamal Lewis is old. But that's about it. Really.

beach tribe
08-24-2009, 05:59 AM
After watching him the last two years, I truly believe that he is thinking in his head "shit, don't go too hard LJ. If we get hurt again, we might get cut, and lose out on that guaranteed money"

Didn't we win a case that says we don't have to pay him his cash if we cut him now?

notorious
08-24-2009, 07:34 AM
I do think LJ could start for either of the Ohio teams.

Cedric Benson still blows and Jamal Lewis is old. But that's about it. Really.

Jamal Lewis still runs like a maniac every time he gets the ball. He may have lost a step, but you can't ever get mad at him for running soft.

Reerun_KC
08-24-2009, 07:43 AM
He's basically done if you start comparing him to the rest of the leagues backs he's very very low on the list. There are some teams who's 2nd backs we'd be better off with...

And for the comment earlier, RB's really don't matter, there's so many good backs that it's really become a dime a dozen position.


This! This is why you NEVER fucking sign a back to a huge ass deal.. Especially one that carried the ball like LJ did for Herm Fucking Edwards in 2006/2007.

Backs are easily replaceable and have a very short service life...

LJ is the Magini of RB's, hes a Soft Bitch...

leviw
08-24-2009, 07:48 AM
Haven't read the whole thread, but I heard Peter King on the radio the other day talking about his visit to last week's San Diego preseason game. He said he was talking to one of the defensive players (can't recall who), and he asked him if the team was concerned with Merriman.

In King's mind, Merriman looked sluggish and lacking his quick burst.

The player laughed at King and basically told him that veteran's give about 40 percent in the preseason, their lone objective is staying healthy.

JuicesFlowing
08-24-2009, 08:37 AM
I hope someone has already said this, but if our O-line doesn't block better, it's not going to matter how LJ runs. I know it's easy to always blame the O-line, but when they open holes, nobody seems to bitch about LJ. We had pretty a pretty good line in 2005-2006. That was the last time we had a good line and LJ has disappeared since then. I'm not saying that LJ hasn't softened up a bit, hell everyone can see that. But some nice holes to run through wouldn't hurt anyone.

Reerun_KC
08-24-2009, 08:43 AM
I hope someone has already said this, but if our O-line doesn't block better, it's not going to matter how LJ runs. I know it's easy to always blame the O-line, but when they open holes, nobody seems to bitch about LJ. We had pretty a pretty good line in 2005-2006. That was the last time we had a good line and LJ has disappeared since then. I'm not saying that LJ hasn't softened up a bit, hell everyone can see that. But some nice holes to run through wouldn't hurt anyone.

Also when your OL does make a hole, it would be nice if our back had vision enough to go through the hole...

Demonpenz
08-24-2009, 09:11 AM
I would rather have LJ than Westbrook from the eagles. I bet westbrook plays 6 games this year

milkman
08-24-2009, 07:53 PM
That's complete BS. That Bears squad had 10 times the O Line the Chiefs do now. Bottom line is that if the RB doesn't have a hole, he isn't going ANYWHERE...PERIOD...END OF STORY. He can have all the vision in the world, and the greatest of athletic ability that God can give. But if he doesn't have consistent holes, he will look like what LJ looks like now.

The RB doesn't make the O Line...The O Line makes the RB. Your an idiot if you think otherwise.

Desire is a word used by talking heads...so is running angry....and passion...Hit the holes the O Line opens and get downhill. That other bullshit is for media types.

I saw the line that Payton ran behind, and it was absolute horseshit.

And what's I find amazing si that you make this assertion and you weren't even born yet.

I saw the crap he ran behind.

And I don't want to get into a pissing match with you, because you are one of the posters I respect, but I'm telling you, that line was crap.

salame
08-25-2009, 01:00 AM
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/PAYTON%20%20&%20Suhey%20N.jpg

JohnnyV13
08-25-2009, 04:50 AM
He's a 30 year old RB with a huge carry year if you can go find me a RB that was productive that late in his career that hadn't either split carries, been on a team that purposely limited his carries by throwing more etc I'll be surprised.

Eddie George was done before 30 because of the abuse he took. Even a guy like Brian Westbrook is starting to breakdown, it's the nature of the position.

John Riggins.

At age 34, he had 375 regular season carries for over 1300 yards and a then record 24 rushing TDs in 1983. He also played in 3 playoff games, and scored 4 more TDs. He had 462 carries, including playoff games.

Riggins followed that season up with his age 35 season with over 1200 yards, 325 carries and 14 touchdowns.

As backs with more than 400 carries in a single season with subsequent productive careers you can look at Jerome Bettis (423 carries including playoffs in 98) and Emmitt Smith (451 carries in 95 including playoffs). BTW there is no logical reason to exclude playoff carries, since I can't imagine playoff tackles hurt any less.

Emmitt Smith is particularly interesting because he had 395 carries in 94, followed by 451 carries in 95. Emmit Smith rushed for over 9,000 more yards in his career after those back to back heavy carry years, including 6 consecutive seasons over 1000 yds.

The poster child for multiple 400 carry years is Eric Dickerson (including playoffs). He had 423 in 83, 402 in 84, 404 in 86 and 403 in 1988.

Curtis Martin had 418 carries in 98, and followed that with 6 consecutive years over 1,000 and around 9,000 more for his career, (including 371 carries for 1697 yards in his age 31 season).