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KCtotheSB
08-27-2009, 12:30 PM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/08/27/a-case-for-tyler-thigpen/


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Jason La Canfora
A case for Tyler Thigpen
Posted: August 27th, 2009 | Jason La Canfora | Tags: Baltimore Ravens, Ben Roethlisberger, Brodie Croyle, Buffalo Bills, Chicago Bears, Green Bay Packers, Jacksonville Jaguars, Joe Flacco, Kansas City Chiefs, Matt Cassel, Matt Ryan, New England Patriots, New Orleans Saints, trades, Tyler Thigpen, Wildcat

I have a question for you guys: Name a first-year starting quarterback who accounted for more touchdowns than Super Bowl-winning veteran Ben Roethlisberger or standout rookies Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan last season? Hereís another one: Of all the players who ran the ball at least 50 times last season, who led the NFL in yards per carry?

OK, so the title of this blog makes the answer pretty much a dead giveaway. I think we all know who Iím talking about here (for the record, he averaged 6.2 yards per carry on 62 rushes). But Iím going to say it (read: type it): I like Tyler Thigpen. Iím not afraid to admit it, and I know some savvy NFL scouts/executives who value him, too.

I like Thigpenís guts and competitiveness. I love his athleticism. I think heís a playmaker whoís still quite raw (a 25-year-old who became a starter for a lame-duck staff last season, out of Coastal Carolina of all places) and has some warts but a ton of upside. Heís a kid who flashed some real talent, yet was surrounded by an Amy Winehouse-thin roster in Kansas City last season (having no defense and no running game did him no favors).

And itís clear that the new Chiefs regime prefers Matt Cassel and Brodie Croyle to him ó because Thigpen is being shopped ó but if Iím running the average NFL team (which means I probably have 1.5 capable QBs on my roster, and, yeah Iím going to use a lot of parenthesis in this post), Iím making a play for this kid, even if it costs me more than a fifth-round draft pick (the current asking price).

So, letís go back to the beginning here, a very good place to start.

Thigpen was thrust into duty after the Chiefsí other quarterbacks went down with season-ending injuries. He ended up accounting for 22 touchdowns (18 passing, three rushing and one receiving) in just 11 starts for a 2-14 team that had some deep flaws. Roethlisberger, a $100 million QB, won a Super Bowl with help from the gameís best defense and accounted for 19 TDs (17 passing, two rushing) in 16 starts.

So Thigpen, as a second-year pro with no prior experience and a last-place roster around him, threw for 2,608 yards and 18 TDs with 12 interceptions in the first 11 starts of his career. And Roethlisberger, already fully polished and with a Super Bowl-quality roster around him, threw for 3,301 yards and 17 TDs with 15 interceptions in 16 games. Hmm, interesting. And Roethlisberger had as many turnovers as Thigpen did scores.

OK. In no way am I trying to say Thigpen is remotely the QB and playmaker than Big Ben is (nor could anyone expect him to be), but tell me this kid might not be worth a shot at being better than most teamsí current backup passer. (Personally, I think heís a heck of a lot better than Croyle, for one, but Iím obviously not running any NFL teams). Hang with me here.

Ryan, the third overall pick in the 2008 draft, won the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year award, had the leagueís best running game and a stout Falcons defense behind him, and he accounted for 17 total TDs in 16 starts. Flacco also was a first-round pick in 2008, started 16 games for a Ravens team with the leagueís second-best defense and a robust running attack, and he accounted for 16 total TDs.

Letís take it a little deeper. Well, Jason, you dope, the Chiefs stunk and Thigpen just put up a bunch of meaningless numbers while chasing teams in the second half of games, right?

Not so fast. The Chiefs either led entering the fourth quarter, led in the fourth quarter or were tied entering the fourth quarter in seven of Thigpenís final 10 games. If anything, questionable play-calling, a horrid running game and an atrocious defense conspired against the young QB.

Overall, could Thigpen be better in the fourth quarter? Sure, he had a 62.0 rating and completed just 50 percent of his passes (four fourth-quarter TDs to four fourth-quarter interceptions isnít that bad, though). This was a kid from a small school thrust into emergency starts with little coaching, and as we know, inexperienced passers tend to have issues late in games. Thigpen also was sacked 11 times on just 123 fourth-quarter pass attempts, so a suspect offensive line and lack of any sort of competent defense didnít make things any easier on him.

Well, what about Thigpen completing just 55 percent of his passes and throwing 12 interceptions in just 14 games? Neither is ideal, no doubt. But letís look at his offensive weapons. Dwayne Bowe and Devard Darling were his starting receivers. It wasnít exactly the sure-hands crew. Besides having perennial Pro Bowl TE Tony Gonzalez, this kid was on his own.

As I said, Thigpen is raw and has some flaws, so coach him up (he was the first quarterback in Coastal Carolina history for goodness sake, with the program starting in 2003) and help him with film study and fundamentals. There is plenty to work with there.

This kid is incredibly fast ó on his runs, he was almost never tackled by someone in the front seven. You canít tell me heís not one of the 64 best QBs out there, and given his skills and speed, he definitely could be someone who could help in the Wildcat. At 6-foot-1 and 224 pounds, Thigpen can take a hit.

As for the interceptions, thatís pretty common with young QBs. And the first came in a mop-up role in his first appearance of 2008, and three more came in his first NFL start, against the eventual NFC South champion Falcons, when youíd expect him to be nervous.

In the final 10 games, all starts, Thigpen threw 16 touchdown passes to eight interceptions. Not too shabby. And thatís far beyond anything the first-round bonus babies (JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn) from Thigpenís draft year (2007) have accomplished.

Well, sure, those are decent numbers, but come on, the dude was in a shotgun most of the time and not a traditional offense?

Yep, the Chiefs, in desperation, got a bit gimmicky last season and spread things out. But a lot of teams are going more that route, and you guys tell me that Tom Brady (and last year, Cassel) and Flacco and Roethlisberger arenít back there quite a bit, too.

Wow, I never thought Iíd write this much about Tyler Thigpen, but, alas, it has happened. But how can you not like the kid? Never invited to the combine, seventh-round pick by the Vikings, claimed off waivers by the Chiefs in September 2007, tore his medial collateral ligament that rookie season and then ended up starting 11 games the next year when no one expected it, and, best as I can tell, did some pretty nice stuff.

And now, someone, if theyíre smart, will meet the Chiefsí price and trade for Thigpen. Sure, a third- or fourth-round pick is considerable, but when you look at what the kid has done, how valuable his position is and how few quality alternatives exist (let alone talented 25-year-olds), to me, a fourth-round pick is surely worth the shot.

The Jaguars have expressed the most interest to this point, and thatís one of several teams with a significant need for a backup QB. The Bills, Bears, Packers and Saints also have been closely monitoring the QB market. And people I talk to around the league donít discount the Patriots making a move for a QB, too ó particularly one who could provide a Wildcat element. The Ravens seriously considered trading for Thigpen before ultimately opting to sign Cleo Lemon a little while back, league sources said.

Some team will come away with a solid prospect in Thigpen, and frankly, Iím not quite sure why the Chiefs didnít give him more of a look before locking in on Cassel.



Thigpen overload lately.

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 12:32 PM
http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/mika-with-gun-in-mouthWEB.jpg

You can’t tell me he’s not one of the 64 best QBs out therehttp://www.roughlydrafted.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/assets-images-gawker-2008-07-lowered-expectations.jpg

I’m not quite sure why the Chiefs didn’t give him more of a look before locking in on Cassel.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2hnmiy0.gif

Bane
08-27-2009, 12:33 PM
It should at least give him a shot somewhere.

KCtotheSB
08-27-2009, 12:33 PM
Also, just a side note, but the new NFL GameCenters look awesome:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009082958/2009/PRE3/seahawks@chiefs

Ari Chi3fs
08-27-2009, 12:34 PM
We traded Tyler Thigpen for a WHOLE CASE of BEER?!! Score!!

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 12:34 PM
http://i25.tinypic.com/2a91y0p.jpg

blaise
08-27-2009, 12:37 PM
A case for Thigpen. A case for him to put all his stuff in when the Chiefs get rid of him.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Good thing that Jason LaConfora is a football writer, and not a lawyer, as he and his "case" would have been case would have been thrown out of court.

HemiEd
08-27-2009, 12:39 PM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: He is worth at least a 3rd!

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 12:41 PM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: He is worth at least a 3rd!
A third of what? A cheese wheel?

MVChiefFan
08-27-2009, 12:42 PM
A third of what? A cheese wheel?

I think he meant to say he's worth at least a turd.

the Talking Can
08-27-2009, 12:43 PM
i hope gm's read and believe that crap

i can't wait till we unload the great white hope...

Slainte
08-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Motherfuck Tyler and his family too. And now,...

Pestilence
08-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Wow....so the Vikings thought he had so much potential that they stuck him on the practice squad. Then we got him....tried him in a pro offense....and he shit the bed. Huard and Croyle go down and we're left with Thigpen....so we switch to the spread...because that's all he can run. Now all of a sudden he's got Peyton Manning potential!

HE'S GOT MOXIE GAT DAMNT!!!!

alpha_omega
08-27-2009, 12:47 PM
I understand the comparison (statistically speaking), but there is no way TP makes that game winning throw in the super bowl.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 12:49 PM
I understand the comparison (statistically speaking), but there is no way TP makes that game winning throw in the super bowl.

He's yet to make a game-winning throw in ANY game.

Bane
08-27-2009, 12:49 PM
I understand the comparison (statistically speaking), but there is no way TP makes that game winning throw in the super bowl.

Like were even thinking about the SB LMAOLMAOLMAO

Radar Chief
08-27-2009, 12:50 PM
Is that a ďcaseĒ of Pabst Blue Ribbon?
If so, thats starting to sound like a better deal.

keg in kc
08-27-2009, 12:52 PM
I would read that, but I don't want to risk what few remaining brain cells I have.

Chocolate Hog
08-27-2009, 01:20 PM
The case for Tyler Thigpen 1 win.

MikeMaslowski
08-27-2009, 01:40 PM
I hope every NFL team reads this and takes the red pill and we get a 3rd rounder in return. How beautiful that would be... indeed.

HemiEd
08-27-2009, 01:43 PM
I hope every NFL team reads this and takes the red pill and we get a 3rd rounder in return. How beautiful that would be... indeed.

Exactly, you would think none of these other fuckers had ever played a hand of poker in their fucking lives.

Dammit, TT is the shit! We need a 2nd for him!

Radar Chief
08-27-2009, 01:53 PM
Exactly, you would think none of these other ****ers had ever played a hand of poker in their ****ing lives.

Dammit, TT is the shit! We need a 2nd for him!

Really, duh.
When youíre trying to make a sale itís a lot easier to take price off than to add it on. ;)

JD10367
08-27-2009, 02:07 PM
He actually makes a pretty convincing case.

I don't think Thigpen will ever challenge Manning or Brady in the record books. But I also don't think Thigpen is as bad as he looked to you guys, or as bad as some of you think.

Is he a starter? Probably not. Can he carry a team? No, unless they're very talented. Does he have the potential to be a very solid #2? I think so. Some players are late bloomers (like Cassel).

I still don't think Haley trades him. Whether he's called the backup or the #3 QB, you're probably not gonna do much better for that position and can do a whole lot worse.

Marcellus
08-27-2009, 02:12 PM
I am happy to have Cassel but you guys bag on a guy who started 11 games as a 2nd year pro and talk about all his negatives. No shit he needs work.

You guys bag on him just to bag on him because you have to either be pro or against Thigpen on this board and there is no in between.

Lex Luthor
08-27-2009, 02:44 PM
Wow....so the Vikings thought he had so much potential that they stuck him on the practice squad. Then we got him....tried him in a pro offense....and he shit the bed. Huard and Croyle go down and we're left with Thigpen....so we switch to the spread...because that's all he can run. Now all of a sudden he's got Peyton Manning potential!

HE'S GOT MOXIE GAT DAMNT!!!!
Don't rewrite history to fit your agenda. The Vikings hoped to sneak him through waivers and they were pissed when the Chiefs claimed him.

Last year, in his second year in the NFL, Thigpen passed for 2608 yards with 18 TDs and 12 INTs.

So you think this guy is a loser? Well, let me tell you the story of another loser. In his second year in the NFL, he passed for 2598 yards with 18 TDs and 15 INTs.

His name is John Elway.

I'm not saying Tyler Thigpen is John Elway. But it's freaking retarded to completely dismiss what he accomplished last year on a team with no offensive line, no running game, and no defense.

Let me repeat that so that there is no misunderstanding. The Thigpen haters are retards.

Bane
08-27-2009, 02:46 PM
Don't rewrite history to fit your agenda. The Vikings hoped to sneak him through waivers and they were pissed when the Chiefs claimed him.

Last year, in his second year in the NFL, Thigpen passed for 2608 yards with 18 TDs and 12 INTs.

So you think this guy is a loser? Well, let me tell you the story of another loser. In his second year in the NFL, he passed for 2598 yards with 18 TDs and 15 INTs.

His name is John Elway.

I'm not saying Tyler Thigpen is John Elway. But it's freaking retarded to completely dismiss what he accomplished last year on a team with no offensive line, no running game, and no defense.

Let me repeat that so that there is no misunderstanding. The Thigpen haters are retards.

:clap:

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 02:48 PM
A nasty case of Tyler Thigpen.

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 02:48 PM
You people and your stats. So cute.

Bane
08-27-2009, 02:51 PM
I could care less about stats,all I know for sure is the kid took beating after beating for the red and gold,and never gave up.

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 02:51 PM
We don't want players that win games. We want players that win our hearts. We're not men.

Lex Luthor
08-27-2009, 02:52 PM
You people and your stats. So cute.

Almost as cute as you people and your lack of them.

Bane
08-27-2009, 02:54 PM
If your boy Cassel plays well then fine,you guys can all party and praise the lord and all that other shit.Untill then he hasn't done anything for the Chiefs in my mind and he's just another Qb like Thiggy trying to find a job.
My question is what if he does throw 30 TD's and for 4,000 yards and we still only win 4-5 games,was that 60 million spent in the right area of need?

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 02:56 PM
I could care less about stats,all I know for sure is the kid took beating after beating for the red and gold,and never gave up.

http://i31.tinypic.com/29qfea1.jpg

Pestilence
08-27-2009, 02:57 PM
I could care less about stats,all I know for sure is the kid took beating after beating for the red and gold,and only won one game.

FYP

Bane
08-27-2009, 02:58 PM
http://i31.tinypic.com/29qfea1.jpg

Nice...:#

Bane
08-27-2009, 02:59 PM
FYP

FYM

KCtotheSB
08-27-2009, 02:59 PM
If Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan were here in Kansas City last season, what would our win/loss record have been?

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:00 PM
If Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan were here in Kansas City last season, what would our win/loss record have been?

If our O line could have stopped my grand mother from hitting the Qb what would it have been?

KCDC
08-27-2009, 03:04 PM
Give Thigpen a break. I mean really.

All of you are quick to point to stats which prove your point, but when it comes to disliking an "inaccurate" QB, you are quick to cry that stats lie. If you throw for 2600 yards in 11 games, you can't be too inaccurate. Yeah TG made some great catches in that span, but gimme a break.

You guys sound like Herm. If you run the spread and could go to the playoffs, or play the convential dropback passing scheme and go 7-9, most of you would vote for the latter.

Oh, we won't be able to look Bronco fans in the eye if we win with aa "scheme" offense. Better to never go to the SB than be accused of "gimmickry." There can be no greater insult to a fan than say you won a game because of a trick play or a gimmick. Yeah, it's better to lose. Let's keep Brokie Croyle and flush TT. You guys are right. If Cassel goes down, we will suck, but we will hold our heads high, rather than have to make excuses for winning. Good idea.

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 03:07 PM
If you throw for 2600 yards in 11 games, you can't be too inaccurate.

Do you know who this man is?

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/1016/nfl_u_frerotte_400.jpg

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 03:07 PM
What happened to Slash without Gailey?
Was Maddox one of his too?

scott free
08-27-2009, 03:08 PM
Theres writing on the wall for Tyler & it doesnt look good.

Considering the mess he was thrown into last year, i thought he played admirably...but i'll take a healthy Croyle over him any day as a backup.

Pooch
08-27-2009, 03:08 PM
All I keep hearing about is what draft picks can we get for him. Who cares, we draft like crap anyways!! Look at how long it has been since we drafted a pro bowler. Everyone acts like a draft pick is a sure thing. I am tired of getting all hyped up for the draft and then get nothing out of it. Thigpen earned a spot, maybe a chance to become better maybe not. But what does it hurt to keep him.

KCDC
08-27-2009, 03:11 PM
Looks like Gus Ferrotte. Had a great year for the Redskins, a fan favorite too. Started for Denver even. Yeah, he's not much, but fans here would have called for him to be flushed, laughing gleefully about getting a 7th round pick for him.

Do you know who this man is?

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/1016/nfl_u_frerotte_400.jpg

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:11 PM
All I keep hearing about is what draft picks can we get for him. Who cares, we draft like crap anyways!! Look at how long it has been since we drafted a pro bowler. Everyone acts like a draft pick is a sure thing. I am tired of getting all hyped up for the draft and then get nothing out of it. Thigpen earned a spot, maybe a chance to become better maybe not. But what does it hurt to keep him.

Exactly:clap: We haven't had personnel who knew how to draft in the past 10 years or so.

Lex Luthor
08-27-2009, 03:11 PM
Do you know who this man is?



Yes. Your point is ... ?

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 03:12 PM
Looks like Gus Ferrotte. Had a great year for the Redskins, a fan favorite too. Started for Denver even. Yeah, he's not much, but

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/3/32/Facepalm.jpg

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:12 PM
We can have 10 first round picks and draft a bunch of FUGGN bums then what???Yeah lets draft some more RB's like we did LJ to scare Priest into showing up for camp.Nice work!!!

JD10367
08-27-2009, 03:12 PM
If your boy Cassel plays well then fine,you guys can all party and praise the lord and all that other shit.Untill then he hasn't done anything for the Chiefs in my mind and he's just another Qb like Thigpen trying to find a job.
My question is what if he does throw 30 TD's and for 4,000 yards and we still only win 4-5 games,was that 60 million spent in the right area of need?

I started to respond by typing, "This is a QB-driven league. You can't win a Super Bowl without a good quarterback."

Then I thought...

SB 34: Rams with Kurt Warner beat Titans with Steve McNair.
SB 35: Ravens with Trent Dilfer beat Giants with Kerry Collins.
SB 37: Bucs with Brad Johnson beat Raiders with Rich Gannon.
SB 42: Giants with Eli Manning beat Patriots with Tom Brady.

In addition, the Colts only finally won when they had a defense and running game. The Steelers are always defensively-driven. And all three of the Pats' SB wins were close and defensive and won by a FG.

But, in general, it's easier to succeed when you build a team around a quarterback. If you have a great defensive mind, maybe you can work it the other way, but there's a reason why defensive teams are few and far-between. And you can argue that the defensive-minded Ravens only won once, almost ten years ago, and have been wasting their defenses since then due to a lack of offensive ability. The Steelers have won twice, but last season is hard to judge since they beat an Arizona team with a weak record that caught fire in the playoffs (not to mention Brady was MIA last season).

Also, it's not like Cassell just got handed a Julius Peppers-type contract that will hamstring the Chiefs. He didn't get Eli Manning or Philip Rivers money. The Chiefs can still build a solid team even with Cassel's salary.

I'm not sure what the option would be, anyway. If they didn't sign Cassel, and won 4 games with Thigpen, I'm pretty sure most Chiefs fans would go ballistic. "Why didn't we get a real quarterback?!?" If Cassel plays great and they only win 4 or 5, I think most fans will say, "Wow, imagine if they built a team around him, they might've won the division!" It's sort of a no-win scenario.

KCDC
08-27-2009, 03:13 PM
All I keep hearing about is what draft picks can we get for him. Who cares, we draft like crap anyways!! Look at how long it has been since we drafted a pro bowler. Everyone acts like a draft pick is a sure thing. I am tired of getting all hyped up for the draft and then get nothing out of it. Thigpen earned a spot, maybe a chance to become better maybe not. But what does it hurt to keep him.

Agreed. Let's get a 5th rounder so we can pick another over-hyped MU player and then flush them. Surrender known value for an 80% chance of a bust. Better to keep him.

No one is offering a 5th rounder for Croyle, but CP posters thinks he's the real keeper.

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 03:16 PM
If someone offered a 5th rounder for Croyle. I think it's safe to say it would not spawn muliple 100 post threads. Hurrah!, would about cover it.

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:18 PM
I started to respond by typing, "This is a QB-driven league. You can't win a Super Bowl without a good quarterback."

Then I thought...

SB 34: Rams with Kurt Warner beat Titans with Steve McNair.
SB 35: Ravens with Trent Dilfer beat Giants with Kerry Collins.
SB 37: Bucs with Brad Johnson beat Raiders with Rich Gannon.
SB 42: Giants with Eli Manning beat Patriots with Tom Brady.

In addition, the Colts only finally won when they had a defense and running game. The Steelers are always defensively-driven. And all three of the Pats' SB wins were close and defensive and won by a FG.

But, in general, it's easier to succeed when you build a team around a quarterback. If you have a great defensive mind, maybe you can work it the other way, but there's a reason why defensive teams are few and far-between. And you can argue that the defensive-minded Ravens only won once, almost ten years ago, and have been wasting their defenses since then due to a lack of offensive ability. The Steelers have won twice, but last season is hard to judge since they beat an Arizona team with a weak record that caught fire in the playoffs (not to mention Brady was MIA last season).

Also, it's not like Cassell just got handed a Julius Peppers-type contract that will hamstring the Chiefs. He didn't get Eli Manning or Philip Rivers money. The Chiefs can still build a solid team even with Cassel's salary.

I'm not sure what the option would be, anyway. If they didn't sign Cassel, and won 4 games with Thigpen, I'm pretty sure most Chiefs fans would go ballistic. "Why didn't we get a real quarterback?!?" If Cassel plays great and they only win 4 or 5, I think most fans will say, "Wow, imagine if they built a team around him, they might've won the division!" It's sort of a no-win scenario.

I agree we must have a real QB,and Cassel is young enough to be coached into a good payer,but time and time again we see players have 1 good year and teams piss themselves to go after them.I will have to see it to believe that he was the right choice.

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:18 PM
Agreed. Let's get a 5th rounder so we can pick another over-hyped MU player and then flush them. Surrender known value for an 80% chance of a bust. Better to keep him.

No one is offering a 5th rounder for Croyle, but CP posters thinks he's the real keeper.

Based on 1 ok performance in a pre season game.ROFL

Halfcan
08-27-2009, 03:19 PM
trade thiggy for anything higher than a 3rd

sedated
08-27-2009, 03:19 PM
We can have 10 first round picks and draft a bunch of FUGGN bums then what???Yeah lets draft some more RB's like we did LJ to scare Priest into showing up for camp.Nice work!!!

do you realize we have a whole new front office? or are you under the impression that the calendar still says 2006?

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:21 PM
do you realize we have a whole new front office? or are you under the impression that the calendar still says 2006?

No I know we did better in this draft,but what can you tell about all those draft pics so far? Its too early to tell.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 03:21 PM
Give Thigpen a break. I mean really.

All of you are quick to point to stats which prove your point, but when it comes to disliking an "inaccurate" QB, you are quick to cry that stats lie. If you throw for 2600 yards in 11 games, you can't be too inaccurate. Yeah TG made some great catches in that span, but gimme a break.

You guys sound like Herm. If you run the spread and could go to the playoffs, or play the convential dropback passing scheme and go 7-9, most of you would vote for the latter.

Oh, we won't be able to look Bronco fans in the eye if we win with aa "scheme" offense. Better to never go to the SB than be accused of "gimmickry." There can be no greater insult to a fan than say you won a game because of a trick play or a gimmick. Yeah, it's better to lose. Let's keep Brokie Croyle and flush TT. You guys are right. If Cassel goes down, we will suck, but we will hold our heads high, rather than have to make excuses for winning. Good idea.

Please tell me that you're kidding with this. Of the 32 qualifying quarterbacks, only Russel and Anderson were less accurate than Thigpen in terms of completion percentage. Of the 32 qualifying quarterbacks, only Anderson and Fitzpatrick threw for fewer YPA. Of the 32 qualifying quarterbacks, Thigpen was ahead of only Anderson, Fitzpatrick, Bulger, Orlovsky and Frerotte in passer rating.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_COMPLETION_PERCENTAGE&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=1

Halfcan
08-27-2009, 03:22 PM
do you realize we have a whole new front office? or are you under the impression that the calendar still says 2006?

:D exactly

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 03:22 PM
I don't believe Croyle is safe, at all. If someone comes available Pioli likes, hes gone.

KCDC
08-27-2009, 03:22 PM
If someone offered a 5th rounder for Croyle. I think it's safe to say it would not spawn muliple 100 post threads. Hurrah!, would about cover it.

The 100 posts would be from fans of the other team wondering if their GM was sane.

No, better to keep a "traditional, pro style" QB than no one wants, and will never amount to anything because of "durability" concerns, then keep a wild card QB that knows only how to score points ... but does it in an "ugly" way.

Better to keep Grbac than Gannon. Same logic. Yeah yeah yeah, Gannon had better accuracy, but is it impossible to see improvement from TT in that department. I don't think so.

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 03:26 PM
Croyle fits what Haley wants to do. Thigpen changes the offense. Ability is not all that makes Croyle the #2 as of now.

kc rush
08-27-2009, 03:26 PM
A case for Tyler Thigpen -

http://www.sportsfanoutlet.com/images_cat/CAS/07/0437126665.jpg

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:27 PM
Croyle fits what Haley wants to do. Thigpen changes the offense. Ability is not all that makes Croyle the #2 as of now.

Fine then, Im sure everyone thinks Brodie is much better than Thigpen,but if youre out for 3 weeks every time you get hit WTF good are you to anyone?:cuss:

JD10367
08-27-2009, 03:28 PM
I agree we must have a real QB,and Cassel is young enough to be coached into a good payer,but time and time again we see players have 1 good year and teams piss themselves to go after them.I will have to see it to believe that he was the right choice.

IIRC most of the QBs who tend to be flash-in-the-pans are the Volek types who have a good game or two. As you said, though, one good year is a different story. I think Cassel showed enough last season to be considered for real.

And what would have been a better choice? While I'm new here, it seems like you guys had a debate here about Sanchez. Personally, I can't see throwing huge money at a rookie QB who might turn out to be a bust. Their deals are almost identical (Cassel's is one year longer and ends up being $500k more per year) but at least Cassel showed some poise in actual NFL games.

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 03:29 PM
If Cassel is out they're ****ed anyway. Thigpen MAY win you a game or two. But it puts what Haley wants to establish in the trash can.

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:30 PM
IIRC most of the QBs who tend to be flash-in-the-pans are the Volek types who have a good game or two. As you said, though, one good year is a different story. I think Cassel showed enough last season to be considered for real.

And what would have been a better choice? While I'm new here, it seems like you guys had a debate here about Sanchez. Personally, I can't see throwing huge money at a rookie QB who might turn out to be a bust. Their deals are almost identical (Cassel's is one year longer and ends up being $500k more per year) but at least Cassel showed some poise in actual NFL games.

I know,I'm scared to throw that kind of money at a rookie too,but I'm just not ready to sacrifice my children at the alter of Cassel yet.::mad:

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:32 PM
If Cassel is out they're ****ed anyway. Thigpen MAY win you a game or two. But it puts what Haley wants to establish in the trashcan.

Well Haley is the key to me anyway.I think he will keep who fits best and that's fine,that's what he is supposed to do.

LaChapelle
08-27-2009, 03:33 PM
Well Haley is the key to me anyway.I think he will keep who fits best and that's fine,that's what he is supposed to do.

With such a strong offensive back ground. I would imagine what he wants to do is pretty much set in concrete. I just don't see Thigpen fitting.

Tylerthigpen!1!
08-27-2009, 03:40 PM
hay guys. sup?

Lex Luthor
08-27-2009, 03:45 PM
Please tell me that you're kidding with this. Of the 32 qualifying quarterbacks, only Russel and Anderson were less accurate than Thigpen in terms of completion percentage. Of the 32 qualifying quarterbacks, only Anderson and Fitzpatrick threw for fewer YPA. Of the 32 qualifying quarterbacks, Thigpen was ahead of only Anderson, Fitzpatrick, Bulger, Orlovsky and Frerotte in passer rating.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_COMPLETION_PERCENTAGE&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=true&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=1

Again, he was a first year starter on a horrible team with no offensive line.

Halfcan
08-27-2009, 03:45 PM
A case for Tyler Thigpen -

http://www.sportsfanoutlet.com/images_cat/CAS/07/0437126665.jpg

:D for a 2nd rounder??

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 03:52 PM
"I like Tyler Thigpen. Iím not afraid to admit it, and I know some savvy NFL scouts/executives who value him, too."

But... but... everybody on CP said that nobody outside of KC gives a shit about him and that no scout outside of KC thinks he's any good and that he'll be out of the NFL and playing in the CFL in a couple of years.

Could it be that... gasp... Tyler Thigpen isn't the antichrist after all?

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 03:56 PM
I could care less about stats,all I know for sure is the kid took beating after beating for the red and gold,and never gave up.

Pollard sucks, but Thigpen should stay? You're slippin' brah, slippin' hard.

Here's MY case for Thigpen:

http://www.visualedtech.com/Jelco/images/Fujitsu-G1.jpg

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 03:56 PM
"I like Tyler Thigpen. Iím not afraid to admit it, and I know some savvy NFL scouts/executives who value him, too."

But... but... everybody on CP said that nobody outside of KC gives a shit about him and that no scout outside of KC thinks he's any good and that he'll be out of the NFL and playing in the CFL in a couple of years.

Could it be that... gasp... Tyler Thigpen isn't the antichrist after all?

Define value.

I've yet to see anyone offer something of value, and the one team that is supposedly interested is balking at giving anything of real value.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 03:58 PM
Again, he was a first year starter on a horrible team with no offensive line.

I don't give a rat's ass if it was the first time he'd ever picked up a football. That's just an attempt at making excuses when it comes to the assertion that was made:

If you throw for 2600 yards in 11 games, you can't be too inaccurate.

3rd worst of those who qualified. The poster, KCDC, was talking out of his ass.

Bane
08-27-2009, 03:58 PM
Pollard sucks, but Thigpen should stay? You're slippin' brah, slippin' hard.

Here's MY case for Thigpen:

http://www.visualedtech.com/Jelco/images/Fujitsu-G1.jpg

Easy now I never said Pollard sucks.I only said Id bet on LJ out lasing Pollard in KC.As far as Thigpen goes they can deal him if they like,thats fine,but getting rid of him doesnt make us SB ready.Everyone seems to think he stopped of from going 16-0 last year.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 03:59 PM
And the butthurt continue from the folks that thought Thigpen was the clear cut #2 coming into camp.

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 04:00 PM
Define value.

I've yet to see anyone offer something of value, and the one team that is supposedly interested is balking at giving anything of real value.

I didn't make the point. La Canfora did. He was a writer for the Washington Post and now works for the NFL Network, so he has his share of contacts. Not saying it's perfectly credible information, but it goes against the ridiculous idea that so many on this board claim that he will never be a good NFL player and that no teams think he's worth a shit.

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 04:01 PM
And the butthurt continue from the folks that thought Thigpen was the clear cut #2 coming into camp.

LMAO But...but...it's THIGGY!

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv252/raisedonriots/GIF_saftey_guy_suicide.gif

Bane
08-27-2009, 04:01 PM
Hopefully Cassel will stay healthy and play well and we wont have to address the issue of who his back up is.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 04:03 PM
And the butthurt continue from the folks that thought Thigpen was the clear cut #2 coming into camp.

someone could say this about you and the cassel situation also

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 04:03 PM
And the butthurt continue from the folks that thought Thigpen was the clear cut #2 coming into camp.

The argument everyone is making is that he doesn't deserve a shot on this roster and that he'll be out of the NFL in a few years because he has no talent. Don't swerve the thread.

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 04:05 PM
The argument everyone is making is that he doesn't deserve a shot on this roster and that he'll be out of the NFL in a few years because he has no talent. Don't swerve the thread.

I don't think anyone is making that argument.

He's a fine backup.

The problems arise when retards write stat-based articles lauding him as some kind of potential long-term starter.

Bane
08-27-2009, 04:07 PM
I don't think anyone is making that argument.

He's a fine backup.

The problems arise when retards write stat-based articles lauding him as some kind of potential long-term starter.

Oh shit you said he's a fine back up!!!!! Look out!!!!

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:10 PM
I didn't make the point. La Canfora did. He was a writer for the Washington Post and now works for the NFL Network, so he has his share of contacts. Not saying it's perfectly credible information, but it goes against the ridiculous idea that so many on this board claim that he will never be a good NFL player and that no teams think he's worth a shit.

The Kansas City Chiefs apparently don't think he's worth a shit, and IMO, neither do other teams, seeing as how nothing better than a 5th round pick has been offered.

If Thigpen wad the player you claim he is, teams would be fighting over his services. But that's not the case.

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 04:11 PM
I don't think anyone is making that argument.

He's a fine backup.

The problems arise when retards write stat-based articles lauding him as some kind of potential long-term starter.

I don't think there are many "pro Thigpen" people out there saying he should be a starter either. Most just want to see him develop on the bench and see what comes of him.

But go to any Thigpen thread. 90% of the posters say they can't wait for him to be gone. Many of them say that no GM thinks he's any good and some of them say he doesn't deserve to be in an NFL uniform. Almost all of them are saying that a GM is stupid to trade any kind of pick for Thigpen. Basically, almost all the posts say he's garbage and he always will be, and there is no chance he will ever be better than garbage.

I don't know why it came to people despising the man, but it has. And that's a shame.

Count Zarth
08-27-2009, 04:14 PM
But go to any Thigpen thread. 90% of the posters say they can't wait for him to be gone.

Probably because there are drooling morons who pimp him at every chance. There are LITERALLY people around here who think Thigpen deserves more of a chance to be the starter.

That gets really tiresome. We're supposed to be moving on from half-baked shit. We have a real quarterback, just STFU about the guy warming the bench.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:14 PM
someone could say this about you and the cassel situation also

You could, but as usual, you'd be full of shit.

Once they passed on Sanchez, I was over it. I still don't think Cassel will become a true franchise QB, but he's ours now - so I hope like he'll I'm wrong.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:17 PM
The argument everyone is making is that he doesn't deserve a shot on this roster and that he'll be out of the NFL in a few years because he has no talent. Don't swerve the thread.

He got his shot and apparently whiffed.

It's funny that so many have given Pioli a pass so far, but are implying he's an idiot for choosing Croyle and Gutierrez over him.

Reaper16
08-27-2009, 04:18 PM
Is this thread really happening?

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:21 PM
You can sum up the pro-Thigpen folks thoughts this way:

Pioli is a genius, except in this case. He's an idiot for choosing Croyle/Gutierrez over Thigpen.

Y'all have a serious case of the red ass.

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 04:21 PM
The Kansas City Chiefs apparently don't think he's worth a shit, and IMO, neither do other teams, seeing as how nothing better than a 5th round pick has been offered.

If Thigpen wad the player you claim he is, teams would be fighting over his services. But that's not the case.

This late in the game? Not a lot of teams want to bring in a raw backup QB. They either want a veteran who can immediately compete for a starting job or they want a veteran backup who can quickly learn the offense and be a safety seal in case the starter gets hurt. Last thing you want is to walk into game 1, get your starter injured, and you're suddenly forced to play a QB who has no idea how to run your offense. Couple that with the fact that these discussions are being made so close to the cut deadline.

I think most teams know if the Chiefs are shopping him around, that they have a lot of negotiating leverage. For the same reason that Cassel could command almost no value in the trade market.

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 04:22 PM
someone could say this about you and the cassel situation also

Someone could tell you to "fetch-a Sake".


SAUTO; FETCH-A SAKE!


*Here we see SAUTO preparing to fetch-a Sake directly from the source.

http://www.wineterroirs.com/images/2008/02/06/himonoya_sake_toji.jpg

Bane
08-27-2009, 04:24 PM
You can sum up the pro-Thigpen folks thoughts this way:

Pioli is a genius, except in this case. He's an idiot for choosing Croyle/Gutierrez over Thigpen.

Y'all have a serious case of the red ass.

You cant sum me up any way cause you don't know me.I think who ever plays the best should be the starter,then they guys thats next should be the back up.I would think every team in the league would apply that same logic.They can keep/trade/cut whoever,I'm just tired of watching Brodie spend the whole damn season on the IR.

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 04:24 PM
He got his shot and apparently whiffed.

It's funny that so many have given Pioli a pass so far, but are implying he's an idiot for choosing Croyle and Gutierrez over him.

I sure as shit am not giving Pioli a pass. I think he whiffed big time on the offensive line and wide receiver situation and I've spoken out about it. And I still contend that it was stupid to trade away Gonzalez. And if he keeps Guttierrez over Thigpen, so be it... I just happen to think it will be the absolute wrong decision and I can't help but wonder if it is motivated in some way by croneyism.

KCDC
08-27-2009, 04:30 PM
You can sum up the pro-Thigpen folks thoughts this way:

Pioli is a genius, except in this case. He's an idiot for choosing Croyle/Gutierrez over Thigpen.

Y'all have a serious case of the red ass.

We "pro-Thigpen" people are not questioning Pioli at all. The fact that he may be shopping him is fine with me. I am glad that Pioli is holding out for more than a 5th rounder. It only strengthens my opinion of him as a GM. The anti-Thigpen folks here would cut him for nothing. It only weakens my opinion of them.

Pioli/Haley may keep Thigpen as a backup, which is fine with me. If you are going to trade the guy, get better than a 5th round pick, who likely will be lucky to make our practice squad next year.

the Talking Can
08-27-2009, 04:33 PM
I don't think there are many "pro Thigpen" people out there saying he should be a starter either. Most just want to see him develop on the bench and see what comes of him.

But go to any Thigpen thread. 90% of the posters say they can't wait for him to be gone. Many of them say that no GM thinks he's any good and some of them say he doesn't deserve to be in an NFL uniform. Almost all of them are saying that a GM is stupid to trade any kind of pick for Thigpen. Basically, almost all the posts say he's garbage and he always will be, and there is no chance he will ever be better than garbage.

I don't know why it came to people despising the man, but it has. And that's a shame.

people like you who cry over thigpen like he were a wounded vet from Iraq make me relish the day his over rated ass gets shipped out of here into obscurity...the radio in kc today was full broken hearts telling us how unfair it was, how great he was, how his stats were the same as real QBs, that he was worth a second, that we should create a special offense for him, and on and on....fuck me in the eye socket


Cassel is a real QB. Thigpen is a novelty.

Bane
08-27-2009, 04:34 PM
We "pro-Thigpen" people are not questioning Pioli at all. The fact that he may be shopping him is fine with me. I am glad that Pioli is holding out for more than a 5th rounder. It only strengthens my opinion of him as a GM. The anti-Thigpen folks here would cut him for nothing. It only weakens my opinion of them.

Pioli/Haley may keep Thigpen as a backup, which is fine with me. If you are going to trade the guy, get better than a 5th round pick, who likely will be lucky to make our practice squad next year.

Im pro-whoever is the best player.

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 04:34 PM
We "pro-Thigpen" people are not questioning Pioli at all. The fact that he may be shopping him is fine with me. I am glad that Pioli is holding out for more than a 5th rounder. It only strengthens my opinion of him as a GM. The anti-Thigpen folks here would cut him for nothing. It only weakens my opinion of them.

Pioli/Haley may keep Thigpen as a backup, which is fine with me. If you are going to trade the guy, get better than a 5th round pick, who likely will be lucky to make our practice squad next year.

ROFL

Bane
08-27-2009, 04:34 PM
people like you who cry over thigpen like he were a wounded vet from Iraq make me relish the day his over rated ass gets shipped out of here into obscurity...


Cassel is a real QB. Thigpen is a novelty.

I hope you are right.

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 04:39 PM
people like you who cry over thigpen like he were a wounded vet from Iraq make me relish the day his over rated ass gets shipped out of here into obscurity...the radio in kc today was full broken hearts telling us how unfair it was, how great he was, how his stats were the same as real QBs, that he was worth a second, that we should create a special offense for him, and on and on....**** me in the eye socket


Cassel is a real QB. Thigpen is a novelty.

You get those idiots no matter what. I could care less about those people. I care more about making the right decisions for the Chiefs.

He doesn't deserve that kind of ridiculous praise, but that's what you get with a home team--lots of homers. He also doesn't deserve all the hate.

Chocolate Hog
08-27-2009, 04:43 PM
The Chiefs better hurry up and trade Thigpen for a 5th. The Bucs are shopping Leftwich, Mccown, and Johnson.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:48 PM
The Chiefs better hurry up and trade Thigpen for a 5th. The Bucs are shopping Leftwich, Mccown, and Johnson.

McCown might be going to Green Bay.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 04:50 PM
The Kansas City Chiefs apparently don't think he's worth a shit, and IMO, neither do other teams, seeing as how nothing better than a 5th round pick has been offered.

If Thigpen wad the player you claim he is, teams would be fighting over his services. But that's not the case.

what makes you say that? they have released him? no. they supposedly were offered a 5th and turned it down. obviously they think he's worth something

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 04:51 PM
You could, but as usual, you'd be full of shit.

Once they passed on Sanchez, I was over it. I still don't think Cassel will become a true franchise QB, but he's ours now - so I hope like he'll I'm wrong.

bullshit, you get down on the guy every fucking chance you get.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 04:53 PM
He got his shot and apparently whiffed.

It's funny that so many have given Pioli a pass so far, but are implying he's an idiot for choosing Croyle and Gutierrez over him.

i for one have never implied shit. i said croyle and thig should be gone with gutierrez as our #2. i just dont get the total hate for the guy

Chocolate Hog
08-27-2009, 04:54 PM
Yea well I think Dirty Sanchez is a pussy.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:55 PM
what makes you say that? they have released him? no. they supposedly were offered a 5th and turned it down. obviously they think he's worth something

Jesus.

He's 4th string behind Croyle and Gutierrez, and they are trying to deal him before cutting him. Not sure how you come to any other conclusion - they don't think he has a place here.

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 04:56 PM
Yea well I think Dirty Sanchez is a pussy.

You also think Mike Brown-stain is a worth a shit.

All your FAIL are belong to ME.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 04:56 PM
Jesus.

He's 4th string behind Croyle and Gutierrez, and they are trying to deal him before cutting him. Not sure how you come to any other conclusion - they don't think he has a place here.

if that was the case why not just take the 5th? it may not be offered again

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:58 PM
bullshit, you get down on the guy every fucking chance you get.

Yep, that's why I commended him for making something out of nothing against the Vikings.

But please, keep talking from your ass.

Micjones
08-27-2009, 04:58 PM
if that was the case why not just take the 5th? it may not be offered again

Wait... They were offered a 5th and Pioli DIDN'T take it?

Marcellus
08-27-2009, 04:59 PM
And the butthurt continue from the folks that thought Thigpen was the clear cut #2 coming into camp.

I think the butthurt is effecting all the intranet GM's that claimed Thiggy wasn't worth a box of used up tampons, who are being proved wrong by real GM's making real decisions in the real world.

This place has gotten ridiculous. You can't even make the argument about Thigpen being a legitimate 3rd stinger without getting jumped on. There are people here want Thigpen gone an keep Gutierrez. I don't hear anybody looking to trade for Gutierrez.

And I still stick by my belief you trade Thigpen if you can because if it comes down to the 3rd string QB again the season was a fucking waste anyway.

Bane
08-27-2009, 04:59 PM
You also think Mike Brown-stain is a worth a shit.

All your FAIL are belong to ME.

Another IR specialist!!!!ROFL

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 04:59 PM
if that was the case why not just take the 5th? it may not be offered again

Ask Pioli. I would have taken a 5th and felt like I stole something.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:00 PM
Yep, that's why I commended him for making something out of nothing against the Vikings.

But please, keep talking from your ass.

so you commended him once. so what. you still talk shit every chance you get. remember the quote about him being a failure if he doesnt win a super bowl here?

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:01 PM
Ask Pioli. I would have taken a 5th and felt like I stole something.

should make it pretty obvious that pioli thinks he's worth something.

he may get cut but i dont see why they wouldnt have taken the 5

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:03 PM
I think the butthurt is effecting all the intranet GM's that claimed Thiggy wasn't worth a box of used up tampons, who are being proved wrong by real GM's making real decisions in the real world.

This place has gotten ridiculous. You can't even make the argument about Thigpen being a legitimate 3rd stinger without getting jumped on. There are people here want Thigpen gone an keep Gutierrez. I don't hear anybody looking to trade for Gutierrez.

And I still stick by my belief you trade Thigpen if you can because if it comes down to the 3rd string QB again the season was a fucking waste anyway.

If these people in question were referring to Thigpen being a 3rd, I'd see your point. They have argued all summer that he's the clear-cut #2, and is a competent backup.

Pioli says otherwise.

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 05:04 PM
If these people in question were referring to Thigpen being a 3rd, I'd see your point. They have argued all summer that he's the clear-cut #2, and is a competent backup.

Pioli says otherwise.

"PIOLI"! LMAO

the Talking Can
08-27-2009, 05:04 PM
what drives me crazy is people saying that Thigpen deserves something for his play last year...like the franchise owes him something.


Central to Halioli's regime is the clearly articulated belief that no one deserves shit, especially on a 2-14 team.

Waters thought he deserved something and Halioli DP'd him in an Arrowhead hallway. Guy hasn't spoken a word since.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:04 PM
If these people in question were referring to Thigpen being a 3rd, I'd see your point. They have argued all summer that he's the clear-cut #2, and is a competent backup.

Pioli says otherwise.

i havent said shit about where he should be depth wise for sure since camp started. i just dont feel comfortable with croyle even on this team

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:06 PM
what drives me crazy is people saying that Thigpen deserves something for his play last year...like the franchise owes him something.


Central to Halioli's regime is the clearly articulated belief that no one deserves shit, especially on a 2-14 team.

Waters thought he deserved something and Halioli DP'd him in an Arrowhead hallway. Guy hasn't spoken a word since.

i dont think the franchise owes him anything, if it's between him and croyle the franchise owes ITSELF thigpen as the backup. croyle cant make it through a half of real football

scott free
08-27-2009, 05:07 PM
Waters thought he deserved something and Halioli DP'd him in an Arrowhead hallway. Guy hasn't spoken a word since.

You've never had shiite to say to me Can, but i gotta give credit where due...

LMAOLMAOLMAO

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:09 PM
so you commended him once. so what. you still talk shit every chance you get. remember the quote about him being a failure if he doesnt win a super bowl here?

And?

He will be. A franchise QB is supposed to win Championships. Not just be OK.

Chocolate Hog
08-27-2009, 05:10 PM
You also think Mike Brown-stain is a worth a shit.

All your FAIL are belong to ME.

If Bernard Pollard isn't the special teams starter instead of the starter on defense it'll say alot about the coaching staff.

the Talking Can
08-27-2009, 05:10 PM
You've never had shiite to say to me Can, but i gotta give credit where due...

LMAOLMAOLMAO

i assumed this board was familiar with the the abbreviation...if it were WPI I'd have to spell it out and draw pictures

Buehler445
08-27-2009, 05:10 PM
Ask Pioli. I would have taken a 5th and felt like I stole something.

I would have too, but you never know with this wildcat shit. I mean FFS, the Dolphins spent a fucking second rounder on Pat fucking White.

PAT WHITE.
Posted via Mobile Device

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:13 PM
And?

He will be. A franchise QB is supposed to win Championships. Not just be OK.

what about the rest of the TEAM? dont they have something to do with it? the guy cant throw it, catch it, run it, kick it, AND tackle the opposing offensive players. sorry but that statement is ignorant

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:20 PM
what about the rest of the TEAM? dont they have something to do with it? the guy cant throw it, catch it, run it, kick it, AND tackle the opposing offensive players. sorry but that statement is ignorant

Franchise QB's raise the level of play around them.

There's a reason why guys like Marino are discussed in a different class than Montana, Aikman, Elway, etc.

Maybe someday we can get all giddy about Cassel being on a "greatest QB that's never won the big game" list.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:20 PM
Franchise QB's raise the level of play around them.

There's a reason why guys like Marino are discussed in a different class than Montana, Aikman, Elway, etc.

how would a qb raise the level of the DEFENSE?

Pooch
08-27-2009, 05:24 PM
What makes Cassel so much better than Thigpen anyway? I realize he is better but most people act like he is the next Brady. He had 21 tds last year when brady had 50 with the same team the year before. He won 11 games when Brady didn't loose one the year before!! I think he is half the Qb that Brady is. We are not as stable at Qb that everyone acts like we are!!

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:25 PM
how would a qb raise the level of the DEFENSE?

By keeping them off the field?

Ask Peyton Manning, he won a championship with a terrible defense.

Chocolate Hog
08-27-2009, 05:26 PM
Franchise QB's raise the level of play around them.

There's a reason why guys like Marino are discussed in a different class than Montana, Aikman, Elway, etc.

Maybe someday we can get all giddy about Cassel being on a "greatest QB that's never won the big game" list.

*yawn*. Marino doesn't make tackles or run the ball so thats pretty absurd. By your definition then Sanchez isn't a franchise QB either.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:27 PM
By keeping them off the field?

Ask Peyton Manning, he won a championship with a terrible defense.

to be fair that defense stepped up in the playoffs when sanders came back. AND peyton had a horrible postseason that year. but i'm sure you remember that it just doesnt help your argument so you left it out. hell you have said that yourself IIRC

the Talking Can
08-27-2009, 05:31 PM
What makes Cassel so much better than Thigpen anyway? I realize he is better but most people act like he is the next Brady. He had 21 tds last year when brady had 50 with the same team the year before. He won 11 games when Brady didn't loose one the year before!! I think he is half the Qb that Brady is. We are not as stable at Qb that everyone acts like we are!!

and thigpen's fanclub remains undaunted

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:31 PM
*yawn*. Marino doesn't make tackles or run the ball so thats pretty absurd. By your definition then Sanchez isn't a franchise QB either.

He hasn't played a down in a regular season game, but he's expected to perform as a franchise QB. If the expectations weren't higher for these guys, there would be no reason to make the investment in them, and teams would just sign the Trent Green's and Todd Collins of the league.

Chocolate Hog
08-27-2009, 05:33 PM
He hasn't played a down in a regular season game, but he's expected to perform as a franchise QB. If the expectations weren't higher for these guys, there would be no reason to make the investment in them, and teams would just sign the Trent Green's and Todd Collins of the league.

If Sanchez is used the way Flaaco is then it looks like he'll just be asked to manage the game and not fuck up. A franchise QB should make plays no?

Pooch
08-27-2009, 05:34 PM
I am not a thigpen fan I am a chiefs fan. I could care less about thigpen I just asked why everyone loves Cassel so much. He threw for less than half the Tds that brady threw for and nobodys points that out or even seems to care.

JASONSAUTO
08-27-2009, 05:35 PM
I am not a thigpen fan I am a chiefs fan. I could care less about thigpen I just asked why everyone loves Cassel so much. He threw for less than half the Tds that brady threw for and nobodys points that out or even seems to care.

it HAS been pointed out, look at mannings career tds year by year. then look at brady's MAYBE you will see the trend

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-27-2009, 05:37 PM
And?

He will be. A franchise QB is supposed to win Championships. Not just be OK.

So, you don't consider a guy like Drew Brees a franchise QB? I mean he has never come close to winning a superbowl, but has played at a high level.

Fruit Ninja
08-27-2009, 05:40 PM
Well, Gerard just her his neck for Jacksonville sooo uh oh

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 05:42 PM
What makes Cassel so much better than Thigpen anyway? I realize he is better but most people act like he is the next Brady. He had 21 tds last year when brady had 50 with the same team the year before. He won 11 games when Brady didn't loose one the year before!! I think he is half the Qb that Brady is. We are not as stable at Qb that everyone acts like we are!!


Manning had 29,49 and 28 touchdown passes in consecutive seasons. Was he only "three fifths" the QB in years 1 and 3 that he was in year 2?

Brady threw 24 touchdowns the year prior to throwing 50.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:43 PM
So, you don't consider a guy like Drew Brees a franchise QB? I mean he has never taken a team deep into the playoffs or sniffed a superbowl, but has played at a high level.

Nope.

But he wasn't taken with a high draft pick, either, so the expectations aren't as high.

Cassel is being touted as a franchise QB and is being paid like one - so he should be held to that standard.

chiefzilla1501
08-27-2009, 05:48 PM
If Bernard Pollard isn't the special teams starter instead of the starter on defense it'll say alot about the coaching staff.

We don't know what we have with Pollard yet. Playing safety in a Tampa 2 when you have no pass rush is about as tough an assignment you could ever ask for. I think Page is going to be much better with a pass rush. Pollard's a bit of a wild card, but I don't know enough to say for sure either way.

Buehler445
08-27-2009, 05:49 PM
So, you don't consider a guy like Drew Brees a franchise QB? I mean he has never come close to winning a superbowl, but has played at a high level.

NFC Championship game.

Buehler445
08-27-2009, 05:50 PM
Nope.

But he wasn't taken with a high draft pick, either, so the expectations aren't as high.

Cassel is being touted as a franchise QB and is being paid like one - so he should be held to that standard.

Oh come on. You don't think Drew Brees has skills that you can build a franchise around?

Pooch
08-27-2009, 05:51 PM
I am not talking about Manning I was talking about Brady and Cassel. Where does Cassel fall on the list of Qbs in the leauge you would build a team around? Is he even in the top ten? We as Chiefs fans deserve better! Hell we deserve the best! We follow this team all year long we love them with all our hearts and the have not won a bowl for us since 1969!! I know the Bradys and Mannings don't come around every year but I think we could have done better than Cassel.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 05:52 PM
Nope.

But he wasn't taken with a high draft pick, either, so the expectations aren't as high.

Cassel is being touted as a franchise QB and is being paid like one - so he should be held to that standard.

Brees was taken #32 overall, which is a higher pick than Cassel was traded for. He also signed for 6/60 in 2006, which is what Brady signed for in 2005.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 05:54 PM
I am not talking about Manning I was talking about Brady and Cassel. Where does Cassel fall on the list of Qbs in the leauge you would build a team around? Is he even in the top ten? We as Chiefs fans deserve better! Hell we deserve the best! We follow this team all year long we love them with all our hearts and the have not won a bowl for us since 1969!! I know the Bradys and Mannings don't come around every year but I think we could have done better than Cassel.

Every fan base 'deserves' the best in their own eyes. In the meantime, there are only 2 franchise quarterbacks in all of the NFL, although Steelers fans might argue that the number is 3.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:56 PM
Oh come on. You don't think Drew Brees has skills that you can build a franchise around?

He absolutely has those skills. But he didn't have that expectation on him when he was drafted, or even when he signed with the Saints.

Were talking about expectation as well as skill.

Pooch
08-27-2009, 05:56 PM
Every fan base 'deserves' the best in their own eyes. In the meantime, there are only 2 franchise quarterbacks in all of the NFL, although Steelers fans might argue that the number is 3.

Is Cassel in your top ten or not?

veist
08-27-2009, 05:56 PM
Nope.

But he wasn't taken with a high draft pick, either, so the expectations aren't as high.

Cassel is being touted as a franchise QB and is being paid like one - so he should be held to that standard.

Curiously, does anyone have any numbers on how many starting QBs right now aren't being paid like a franchise QB, a handful? I mean the Panthers gave Delhomme retarded money ffs.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 05:58 PM
He absolutely has those skills. But he didn't have that expectation on him when he was drafted, or even when he signed with the Saints.

Were talking about expectation as well as skill.

Cassel didn't have that expectation on him when he was traded to the Chiefs. He didn't have that expectation on him when he signed his contract with the Chiefs. How is it any different?

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Brees was taken #32 overall, which is a higher pick than Cassel was traded for. He also signed for 6/60 in 2006, which is what Brady signed for in 2005.

I don't recall anyone saying he was considered a franchise QB the year he signed there.

Furthermore, if you needed one QB to win you a game, would you pick him?

I wouldn't.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 06:00 PM
Cassel didn't have that expectation on him when he was traded to the Chiefs. He didn't have that expectation on him when he signed his contract with the Chiefs. How is it any different?

Are you fucking kidding?

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 06:02 PM
Is Cassel in your top ten or not?

Not until he shows he can perform at a high level without Moss/Welker/Belichick.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 06:02 PM
Are you ****ing kidding?

No. Just because you have pinned that on him because you were pissed off about the Sanchez situation, you think everyone else should buy into that nonsense. I can't recall a single analyst who was putting Cassel in the same class as Brady and Manning.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 06:05 PM
I don't recall anyone saying he was considered a franchise QB the year he signed there.

Furthermore, if you needed one QB to win you a game, would you pick him?

I wouldn't.

If I needed to win one game, I'd pick Tom Brady. If I couldn't have him, I'd hope to God he wasn't on the other team, and I'd look to Warner or Roethlisberger.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 06:07 PM
No. Just because you have pinned that on him because you were pissed off about the Sanchez situation, you think everyone else should buy into that nonsense. I can't recall a single analyst who was putting Cassel in the same class as Brady and Manning.

So it's nonsense to think that Matt Cassel can be a franchise QB.

Got it.

That's only the exact opposite of what the majority has been saying since the day we traded for him.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 06:08 PM
So it's nonsense to think that Matt Cassel can be a franchise QB.

Got it.

That's only the exact opposite of what the majority has been saying since the day we traded for him.

I do love how you try to twist things around. Here, let's start simple....

List all the franchise QBs.

Buehler445
08-27-2009, 06:14 PM
He absolutely has those skills. But he didn't have that expectation on him when he was drafted, or even when he signed with the Saints.

Were talking about expectation as well as skill.

Hmmmm. You and I must have differing opinions on franchise QBs.
Posted via Mobile Device

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 06:24 PM
I do love how you try to twist things around. Here, let's start simple....

List all the franchise QBs.

True franchise QB's: Brady, Manning's, Roethlisberger.

Guys that were drafted to be a FQB who will eventually or could win a SB: Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

Guys that are solid QB's, but I don't think are capable of leading a team to a championship: Brees, Romo, McNabb.

Guys that could be solid but I don't think are capable: Cassel, Quinn, Schaub.

The rest are either to old to be considered, are no good, or are excaping my memory at the moment.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 06:27 PM
True franchise QB's: Brady, Manning's, Roethlisberger.

Guys that were drafted to be a FQB who will eventually or could win a SB: Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

Guys that are solid QB's, but I don't think are capable of leading a team to a championship: Brees, Romo, McNabb.

Guys that could be solid but I don't think are capable: Cassel, Quinn, Schaub.

The rest are either to old to be considered, are no good, or are excaping my memory at the moment.

So your assertion is that people were claiming that Cassel was going to develop into Brady or Manning, or at least Roethlisberger?

If that's the case, can you find me 10 posts or so by different people to verify that? I sure don't recall any such thing occurring on any large scale.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 06:33 PM
So your assertion is that people were claiming that Cassel was going to develop into Brady or Manning, or at least Roethlisberger?

If that's the case, can you find me 10 posts or so by different people to verify that? I sure don't recall any such thing occurring on any large scale.

I'm on my phone, so that isn't possible at the moment.

However, I will tell you that there was a thread with a poll discussing it after the trade. Matter of fact, I think I started it and the question was "is Cassel capable of putting a team on his back and winning a championship" referencing the idea of a franchise QB.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm on my phone, so that isn't possible at the moment.

However, I will tell you that there was a thread with a poll discussing it after the trade. Matter of fact, I think I started it and the question was "is Cassel capable of putting a team on his back and winning a championship" referencing the idea of a franchise QB.

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 06:39 PM
But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

I'll type out a full response when I get home in an hour or so.

JD10367
08-27-2009, 06:51 PM
I've lost track. What was being argued here? Cassel vs. Thigpen, or Cassel being a franchise QB, or Cassel being half as good as Brady? (Which isn't exactly a news flash. But, then again, right NOW Cassel might be half as good. Who knows how it'll develop.)

The unknown seems to be how "for real" Cassel is and, to an extent, how "for real" Thigpen is. People can talk about how well Thigpen might've done in Cassel's place on New England last year, or how poorly Cassel would've done in Thigpen's place in KC, but unfortunately we don't have the gateway to the alternate universe to find those things out.

So, we have to go by what we know.

There are varying degrees of QB. On the bottom level you have the guys who are inconsistent, who throw a frozen rope on one play and an errant pass on another, or make a brilliant decision on one play and a boneheaded one on another. I'm looking at Byron Leftwich right now for Tampa, and he fits that bill.

The better a QB's decision-making and accuracy, the better the QB. Take Drew Bledsoe, for example. He could be very accurate and had a cannon, but his decision-making often wasn't the best, especially in later years. He'd lock on to his primary receiver and get tunnel vision, trying to force a pass into double-coverage instead of taking the more open pass to another guy. Or he'd take a bad sack from lack of pocket awareness, or heave the ball out of bounds too quickly.

The better a QB, the more they can make up for. A Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning on a bad team might elevate them; a Damon Huard might not. Conversely, an excellent team might make a decent QB look better than he would on a crap team. Same works in reverse (e.g. Brady making average receivers look good).

What it boils down to is this: what kind of consistency do you see from a QB? Are his passes more often than not accurate? Is his decision-making more often than not pretty good? Does he come through in clutch situations, or choke as the pressure mounts? By those criteria, from what I've seen of Cassel, he's definitely on the proper end of the spectrum. Thigpen? Maybe not so much, judging from his lack of accuracy and his declining QB rating at the end of games.

Thus, I think Cassel definitely has the potential to be a very solid starting QB. The kind of guy who can take a team places. (Hell, if guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer can get SB rings, I think Cassel's good enough.) Sort of like a Chad Pennington. Thigpen? He might succeed as a starter, but I get the feeling he'd need more help around him than Cassel, and might be better suited to the Billy Volek role of a backup who can win you some games for a stretch if your starter is out.

A franchise QB, to me, is a guy who can singlehandedly keep his team in the game, always make his team a threat, a QB who is the undisputed leader of his team and is going to be there for a long time. Those are very few and far-between. Brady and Manning in this era, Marino and Aikman and Favre and Montana and Jim Kelly in earlier years, etc.,.

Brady and Manning > Cassel > Thigpen and Croyle (at least in their current versions).

Franchise QBs > guy who's got the potential to be a solid starter > guys who are probably better suited as backups.

Guys who can win games singlehandedly > guys who can make some great plays to help win games and elevate some players > guys who probably can't win games on their own or overcome a lack of talent around them.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 07:34 PM
But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

sedated
08-27-2009, 07:46 PM
McNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer. :rolleyes:

Bane
08-27-2009, 07:49 PM
wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer. :rolleyes:

And he did it with no stand out receivers.Yeah he sucks.LMAO

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 07:50 PM
wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer. :rolleyes:

Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the fucking game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty fucking important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

RippedmyFlesh
08-27-2009, 08:00 PM
wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer. :rolleyes:

agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 08:05 PM
Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

I don't agree on Ben, but let's concede it to give him a spot.

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

McNabb's got a better playoff record than Manning and has brought his team to the Super Bowl, and to the NFCCG multiple times. He's clearly won big games. Your assertion here makes no sense, in my opinion. The only year Manning won the Super Bowl, he was getting crushed by the Patriots until they turned into a M*A*S*H unit, and he was then able to take advantage of that, along with lousy officiating, and got to face the Bears in the Super Bowl. Hell, he was being talked of as being the greatest choker in history before he got that win.

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

All QBs are drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB. Quinn fell because so many teams doubted he'd ever become one.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

There's a difference between "a guy" and "a true franchise player", but there are also other layers of quarterbacks, just as you yourself have delineated. Again, nobody that I've seen expects Cassel to become Brady or Manning. Then again, nobody with a brain will expect that of any quarterback, given that they are 2 of the best to ever play the game (for Manning, this is true at least during the regular season, if not in the playoffs).

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:08 PM
agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

Don't hate him, he just didn't live up to the #2 overall selection, IMO. Especially when he had MULTIPLE chances, and failed each time.

People say that Roethlisberger was handed rings by his defense, what the fuck happened in Philly then?

And being the best in a class of Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Cade McNown, Shawn King,Brock Huard, Joe Germaine, Aaron Brooks, Kevin Daft, Michael Bishop, Chris Greisen and Scott Covington isn't exactly high praise...

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:09 PM
Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the ****ing game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty ****ing important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

I saw that drive, but I also saw all the other games Roth played where he didn't do shit except hand the ball off. He has played his entire career with a great front office, great receivers, great running game, and great defense.


As for McNabb, all playoff games are "big games" and he has won plenty of them. Without a runninng game or receivers.


But I guess all that is pretty easy to forget when you pay too much attention to ESPN.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:09 PM
This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

That's the second time you've apparently missed me saying BOTH MANNING'S.

DeezNutz
08-27-2009, 08:10 PM
CP, where Roethlisberger is average.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:11 PM
This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

in his defense, he said "Manning's".

It was intended to be pural, but ended up possessive, so I can see the confusion.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:11 PM
I saw that drive, but I also saw all the other games Roth played where he didn't do shit except hand the ball off. He has played his entire career with a great front office, great receivers, great running game, and great defense.


As for McNabb, all playoff games are "big games" and he has won plenty of them. Without a runninng game or receivers.


But I guess all that is pretty easy to forget when you pay too much attention to ESPN.

Name all the QB's in league history to win multiple Super Bowls.

Yeah, it's just as easy as you claim, numbnuts.

:spock:

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 08:13 PM
That's the second time you've apparently missed me saying BOTH MANNING'S.

No. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to put both Mannings in the franchise section and to not have Eli with the second tier. Really, I'm trying to be polite about this, but calling Eli a franchise level player is just about as fucking stupid as it gets.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:15 PM
CP, where Roethlisberger is average.

take away the super bowls and where do his stats rank?

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:16 PM
No. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to put both Mannings in the franchise section and to not have Eli with the second tier. Really, I'm trying to be polite about this, but calling Eli a franchise level player is just about as fucking stupid as it gets.

Dude.

He was drafted with the expectation that comes with a franchise QB.

He plays in the most demanding media market in the NFL.

When his team needed him most, he went on the best 5-6 game run of his career, carrying that team through the playoffs and into the Super Bowl.

Then he leads his team on a last-minute drive against a 16-0 team that had been destroying the opposition for 4 months to win the Lombardi Trophy.

The Giants traded multiple picks hoping expecting that Eli would be that guy, and he didn't disappoint.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 08:17 PM
Dude.

He was drafted with the expectation that comes with a franchise QB.

He plays in the most demanding media market in the NFL.

When his team needed him most, he went on the best 5-6 game run of his career, carrying that team through the playoffs and into the Super Bowl.

Then he leads his team on a last-minute drive against a 16-0 team that had been destroying the opposition for 4 months to win the Lombardi Trophy.

The Giants traded multiple picks hoping expecting that Eli would be that guy, and he didn't disappoint.

Trent Dilfer says "hello".

This is the root of my issue with you on this stuff. You're completely inconsistent.

Wait..... was Dilfer a 'Franchise' level QB?

Bane
08-27-2009, 08:17 PM
Dude.

He was drafted with the expectation that comes with a franchise QB.

He plays in the most demanding media market in the NFL.

When his team needed him most, he went on the best 5-6 game run of his career, carrying that team through the playoffs and into the Super Bowl.

Then he leads his team on a last-minute drive against a 16-0 team that had been destroying the opposition for 4 months to win the Lombardi Trophy.

The Giants traded multiple picks hoping expecting that Eli would be that guy, and he didn't disappoint.

:clap:

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:17 PM
take away the super bowls and where do his stats rank?

Who gives a fuck?

He has 10 years left to play.

Christ, this fanbase is fucked. You'd rather have the 4,000 yard passer who can't win a playoff game than the guy who threw for 3,000 and has multiple rings.

DeezNutz
08-27-2009, 08:18 PM
take away the super bowls and where do his stats rank?

I could care less what the stat line says.

Based on this argument, Trent Green was a franchise QB.

Roethlisberger and Rivers are clearly the two elite young QBs in the game.

Bane
08-27-2009, 08:19 PM
Thats like saying Marino sucked because he didn't win a SB.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:20 PM
Name all the QB's in league history to win multiple Super Bowls.

Yeah, it's just as easy as you claim, numbnuts.

:spock:

super bowls are about a TEAM, not a QB. Are you saying Marino, Tarkenton, Archie Manning, Dan Fouts, and Jim Kelly weren't "franchise QBs" because they never had enough talent around them to win a SB?


the first Steelers SB should belong to the Seahawks. That game was a travesty and, unlike most people, I won't forget that.

That's one thing that pises me off about the "SB is everything" attitude - it doesn't matter how you got it, all you have to do is be carried to one, people forget the circumstances, and you are in the Hall.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:23 PM
Based on this argument, Trent Green was a franchise QB.

the only reason he wasn't was because of his age. are you saying that if he put up 2003-2005 numbers when he was in his mid-20s, he wouldn't be considered a future HOFer?

and what kept Trent out of the SB? the Defense.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:23 PM
Wait..... was Dilfer a 'Franchise' level QB?

he must have been. he was a high draft pick and won a SB. :rolleyes:

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:23 PM
CP, where Roethlisberger is average.

And a guy with ONE regular season win to his name is a God.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:28 PM
Trent Dilfer says "hello".

This is the root of my issue with you on this stuff. You're completely inconsistent.

Wait..... was Dilfer a 'Franchise' level QB?

Wow, talk about disingenous.

Did Trent Dilfer play to the level expected of a franchise QB his entire career?

Or did he fall ass-backwards into the perfect spot, with the perfect team?

Had Peyton Manning played like Neil Lomax for 8 seasons, and then won a SB, we wouldn't be calling him a franchise QB either.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:29 PM
You'd rather have the 4,000 yard passer who can't win a playoff game than the guy who threw for 3,000 and has multiple rings.

First of all, I entered the conversation when it came to McNabb, who has won numerous playoff games.

Secondly, I look at more than simply "rings", because as I said, rings are about a team, not a single player. I'm fairly certain that if E Manning or P Rivers went to Pittsburgh instead of Roth, they would have those rings instead

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:30 PM
Or did he fall ass-backwards into the perfect spot, with the perfect team?

ROFL

how ironic

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:32 PM
ROFL

how ironic

How idiotic.

I'm still waiting on that list of multiple SB winning QB's.

I mean, Roethlisberger "fell into" 2 championships in 4 years, the list must be a mile long if it's that easy.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 08:34 PM
Wow, talk about disingenous.

Did Trent Dilfer play to the level expected of a franchise QB his entire career?

Or did he fall ass-backwards into the perfect spot, with the perfect team?

Had Peyton Manning played like Neil Lomax for 8 seasons, and then won a SB, we wouldn't be calling him a franchise QB either.

Eli surely hasn't played to the level expected of a franchise QB his entire career, and that was the Manning I was referring to.

55.9% completions
76.1 passer rating.


Dilfer:
55.5% completions
70.2 passer rating

Brad Johnson:
61.7% completions
82.5 passer rating


3 players with 1 Super Bowl win each. So, if Eli is a 'Franchise' QB, how is it that Johnson and Dilfer weren't?

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:35 PM
How idiotic.

I'm still waiting on that list of multiple SB winning QB's.

I mean, Roethlisberger "fell into" 2 championships in 4 years, the list must be a mile long if it's that easy.

I guess you aren't getting the point. Roth was fortunate enough to be on a great TEAM.

kinda like...Trent Dilfer, eh?

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 08:37 PM
CP, where Roethlisberger is average.

Nice avy! :D

Who gives a fuck?

He has 10 years left to play.

Christ, this fanbase is fucked. You'd rather have the 4,000 yard passer who can't win a playoff game than the guy who threw for 3,000 and has multiple rings.

That fact that you made it THIS far in the thread before exploding just boggles my fucking mind.
Rep to you Sir.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:38 PM
Eli surely hasn't played to the level expected of a franchise QB his entire career, and that was the Manning I was referring to.

55.9% completions
76.1 passer rating.


Dilfer:
55.5% completions
70.2 passer rating

Brad Johnson:
61.7% completions
82.5 passer rating


3 players with 1 Super Bowl win each. So, if Eli is a 'Franchise' QB, how is it that Johnson and Dilfer weren't?

Feel free to compare the guy who's played 4 years, with his entire career ahead of him, with two guys that combined for close to 30 seasons...

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 08:39 PM
Feel free to compare the guy who's played 4 years, with his entire career ahead of him, with two guys that combined for close to 30 seasons...

I will, just as you're comparing Cassel, a guy with one season playing, to players with a lot more years as starters under their belts.

DeezNutz
08-27-2009, 08:40 PM
the only reason he wasn't was because of his age. are you saying that if he put up 2003-2005 numbers when he was in his mid-20s, he wouldn't be considered a future HOFer?

and what kept Trent out of the SB? the Defense.

He didn't start playing football until 2003?

I'd say '97-'02 and '06-'08 had a lot to do with him not being a franchise QB. And the HOF question is a ridiculous leap. If player X had only played at an incredibly high level for his entire career, wouldn't he be a HOFer?

Of course, and if frogs had wings...

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:42 PM
I will, just as you're comparing Cassel, a guy with one season playing.

You know why?

All I've been told for the past 3 months is how important his experience is, and how sitting for years behind Brady makes him a can't miss veteran - how it made so much more sense to get him instead of drafting a young QB.

"Cassel can handle it, we'd ruin a young QB."

So the people are getting what they asked for.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:44 PM
He didn't start playing football until 2003?

I'd say '97-'02 and '06-'08 had a lot to do with him not being a franchise QB. And the HOF question is a ridiculous leap. If player X had only played at an incredibly high level for his entire career, wouldn't he be a HOFer?

Of course, and if frogs had wings...

He's the expert at ridiculous leaps...

According to him, all we needed was a defense and Trent would have won the SB for us.

Talk about putting the fucking cart before the horse, as the franchise hadn't won a playoff game in over a decade...

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:50 PM
He didn't start playing football until 2003?

I'd say '97-'02 and '06-'08 had a lot to do with him not being a franchise QB. And the HOF question is a ridiculous leap.

I guess it depends on when you ask the question "is he a franchise QB?" Is it when his career is over, at the peak of his career, or after a few seasons? We seem to be comparing apples to oranges - everyone is being judged at different points in their career and by different standards.

Who kows what TGreen would have been if circumstances were different. Riding the bench for so long, being on shitty teams, the STL injury in 99, getting decapitated...twice.

The "what-if" question abounds - Terrell Davis and Priest Holmes are just the tip of the iceberg. Reggie White may only be the greatest defensive player ever because he went to GB and got a ring. Dan Marino is discounted because he never got one.

Just Passin' By
08-27-2009, 08:51 PM
You know why?

All I've been told for the past 3 months is how important his experience is, and how sitting for years behind Brady makes him a can't miss veteran - how it made so much more sense to get him instead of drafting a young QB.

"Cassel can handle it, we'd ruin a young QB."

So the people are getting what they asked for.

You've been completely inconsistent with your arguments, all the while cherry picking comments from a few individuals rather than dealing with the general consensus about Cassel. Acting as if it's somehow others "getting what they asked for" is a steaming pile, nothing more.

Eli Manning is a franchise player according to you, but it's somehow unfair for others to point to Dilfer and Johnson in refuting that assertion because of career length? And you talk about the bullshit other posters have put down?

Was Marino a franchise QB?
Tarenton?
Fouts?
Jim Kelly?
Jay Schroeder?
Doug Williams?
Ken Stabler?

Do you have a full list of the NFL's franchise QBs since, say, 1970?

And the 3 months thing is just another load of bullshit. You've been blowing Sanchez and pounding on Cassel since before that 3 month period even started.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:54 PM
He's the expert at ridiculous leaps...

According to him, all we needed was a defense and Trent would have won the SB for us.

uh...we had the best offense and special teams in football. if we had a defense, what other conclusion would you come up with?

and no single player wins a SB, a team does. That's my whole point.

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:55 PM
Talk about putting the ****ing cart before the horse, as the franchise hadn't won a playoff game in over a decade...

what does that have to do with anything? how many playoff games had Arizona won in the last decade, before they went to the SB last year?

DeezNutz
08-27-2009, 08:55 PM
I guess it depends on when you ask the question "is he a franchise QB?" Is it when his career is over, at the peak of his career, or after a few seasons? We seem to be comparing apples to oranges - everyone is being judged at different points in their career and by different standards.

Who kows what TGreen would have been if circumstances were different. Riding the bench for so long, being on shitty teams, the STL injury in 99, getting decapitated...twice.

The "what-if" question abounds - Terrell Davis and Priest Holmes are just the tip of the iceberg. Reggie White may only be the greatest defensive player ever because he went to GB and got a ring. Dan Marino is discounted because he never got one.

To me, a franchise QB is one who is the cornerstone of his team. He plays at a very high level for a significant period of time, elevating the play of those who surround him.

Furthermore, he is able to put the team on his shoulders and win a game, and he's able to do this on the biggest stage.

Based on the above, it's pretty easy to see the distinction between a Dilfer and a Roethlisberger. A Marino and a Green.

Raised On Riots
08-27-2009, 08:57 PM
You know why?

All I've been told for the past 3 months is how important his experience is, and how sitting for years behind Brady makes him a can't miss veteran - how it made so much more sense to get him instead of drafting a young QB.

"Cassel can handle it, we'd ruin a young QB."

So the people are getting what they asked for.

None of that shit matters because he's a former Patriot. A product the Great Piolichick. A God among men from New England.

New England; where micro-brews flow through the rivers and streams so fresh and clean, you can dip your bottle in and taste Ambrosia. Where the sewers smell like a Lilly patch, and the turds transform in to chocolate bars as the piss becomes lemonade!
Where $100.00 bills grow from every chloroform-based vegetation as Prime Rib is hand delivered to your front door by Playboy Bunnies!
And where the Greatest Quarterbacks you'll ever be lucky enough to have pawned-off on you, you worthless, fucking non-New England-ite, shall NEVER be questioned, only Praised and Worshiped.

You infidel.

Bane
08-27-2009, 08:58 PM
None of that shit matters because he's a former Patriot. A product the Great Piolichick. A God among men from New England.

New England; where micro-brews flow through the rivers and streams so fresh and clean, you can dip your bottle in and taste Ambrosia. Where the sewers smell like a Lilly patch, and the turds transform in to chocolate bars as the piss becomes lemonade!
Where $100.00 bills grow from every chloroform-based vegetation as Prime Rib is hand delivered to your front door by Playboy Bunnies!
And where the Greatest Quarterbacks you'll ever be lucky enough to have pawned-off on you, you worthless, ****ing non-New England-ite, shall NEVER be questioned, only Praised and Worshiped.

You infidel.

HOLY SHIT!LMAOLMAO

sedated
08-27-2009, 08:59 PM
Let me ask you this - who would you rather have as your RB, if you could draft either one to an expansion team - Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith?

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 08:59 PM
To me, a franchise QB is one who is the cornerstone of his team. He plays at a very high level for a significant period of time, elevating the play of those who surround him.

Furthermore, he is able to put the team on his shoulders and win a game, and he's able to do this on the biggest stage.

Based on the above, it's pretty easy to see the distinction between a Dilfer and a Roethlisberger. A Marino and a Green.

You'd think that.

I'm done.

sedated
08-27-2009, 09:04 PM
To me, a franchise QB is one who is the cornerstone of his team. He plays at a very high level for a significant period of time, elevating the play of those who surround him.

Furthermore, he is able to put the team on his shoulders and win a game, and he's able to do this on the biggest stage.

Based on the above, it's pretty easy to see the distinction between a Dilfer and a Roethlisberger. A Marino and a Green.


its still apples and oranges IMO - Roth has only been playing for, what, 4 years? All the other QBs have had an entire career of ups and down to judge by.

And Roth is being judged PURELY on the rings, nothing else. "He has rings", "He led them on that one drive in the SB". (Nevermind the dominant team that carried him into that position)

Hey, I put Kurt Warner in the category of "surrounded by talent, nothing special", before he did what he did in Arizona last year.

OnTheWarpath58
08-27-2009, 09:05 PM
its still apples and oranges IMO - Roth has only been playing for, what, 4 years? All the other QBs have had an entire career of ups and down to judge by.

And Roth is being judged PURELY on the rings, nothing else. "He has rings", "He led them on that one drive in the SB". (Nevermind the dominant team that carried him into that position)

Hey, I put Kurt Warner in the category of "surrounded by talent, nothing special", before he did what he did in Arizona last year.


http://i41.tinypic.com/2gwgp4j.jpg


If that doesn't explain what a fucking retard you are, nothing will.

The guy was only a SBMVP before getting to Arizona...

DeezNutz
08-27-2009, 09:18 PM
And Roth is being judged PURELY on the rings, nothing else. "He has rings", "He led them on that one drive in the SB". (Nevermind the dominant team that carried him into that position)


So anyone could have done it? Roethlisberger was carried?

DaneMcCloud
08-28-2009, 12:25 AM
take away the super bowls and where do his stats rank?

Smoke more crack

DaneMcCloud
08-28-2009, 12:27 AM
Let me ask you this - who would you rather have as your RB, if you could draft either one to an expansion team - Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith?

Emmitt Smith, hands down.

Chocolate Hog
08-28-2009, 12:31 AM
So Rothlisberger (sp?) wins 15 games as a rookie and Thigpen wins 1. Yet Rothlisberger sucks and Thigpen is good?

Raised On Riots
08-28-2009, 12:34 AM
Smoke more crack

He's a Beaker; it's all about the "Honk For Hemp" with those fucking hippies.

http://woots.homestead.com/HonkForHemp.jpg

DaneMcCloud
08-28-2009, 12:35 AM
So Rothlisberger (sp?) wins 15 games as a rookie and Thigpen wins 1. Yet Rothlisberger sucks and Thigpen is good?

Welcome to Chiefs Nation!

chiefzilla1501
08-28-2009, 03:24 AM
You know why?

All I've been told for the past 3 months is how important his experience is, and how sitting for years behind Brady makes him a can't miss veteran - how it made so much more sense to get him instead of drafting a young QB.

"Cassel can handle it, we'd ruin a young QB."

So the people are getting what they asked for.

Dude, you're exaggerating. Few people on CP that I've seen of say he's a "can't miss veteran." Most people like him and like his potential, but know that he's got a lot to prove. But is he further along in his progression than Sanchez? How can you claim otherwise? You know he has everything between the ears and that's a huge advantage over a guy like Sanchez or Stafford, who you have no idea what to expect. Who knows if they'll have the work ethic to get better when you throw gobs of money and publicity in their direction.

chiefzilla1501
08-28-2009, 03:37 AM
Who gives a ****?

He has 10 years left to play.

Christ, this fanbase is ****ed. You'd rather have the 4,000 yard passer who can't win a playoff game than the guy who threw for 3,000 and has multiple rings.

No, the point is that if you can't see that Super Bowls are generally run with balanced teams, then there is something wrong with you. I think Big Ben is one of the best QBs in the NFL. But there is NO WAY he could carry the 2003 Chiefs to the Super Bowl. How many playoff games could Big Ben win where the defense doesn't force A SINGLE PUNT?

Big Ben has had a top 5 defense almost every year he's played. That includes a top 5 defense in scoring as well as forcing turnovers. How can you be so blind to realize that a top 5 defense makes a QB's job 100 times easier?

To answer your question, of course I'd rather have a 3,000 yard passer because that implies that you have a dominant defense that allows you to win games. But stop pretending that Big Ben can win on a 3,000 yard season on a bottom 5 defense. For christ sake, his defense gave up 13.9 points per game. That's 2 TDs less per game than the Chiefs gave up. Do you realize that in 2003, there wasn't one single game where the Chiefs scored less than 13.9 points?

Raised On Riots
08-28-2009, 03:42 AM
Dude, you're exaggerating. Few people on CP that I've seen of say he's a "can't miss veteran." Most people like him and like his potential, but know that he's got a lot to prove. But is he further along in his progression than Sanchez? How can you claim otherwise? You know he has everything between the ears and that's a huge advantage over a guy like Sanchez or Stafford, who you have no idea what to expect. Who knows if they'll have the work ethic to get better when you throw gobs of money and publicity in their direction.

"I'm Chiefzilla, and I want assurances".


I know exactly what to expect:

Cassel will look epic this year compared to so many floundering Chiefs QB's-past, while Sanchez looks less polished and struggles.

Here's the bummer; Sanchez matches or surpasses Cassel's numbers while appearing to struggle. You see, Cassel's going to have to hop and skip down to the end zone while Sanchez, when faced with 3rd down conversions of the long nature, is going to do EXACTLY the kind of shit you saw with the 50-yard bomb and the precisely placed long-yarder to Washington against the Ravens.

Oh, other bummer:

Two years from now when Cassel is still hopping and skipping, Sanchez has polished his long game to a science while making those short passes in tight coverage look like child's play.

Question asked, question answered. On with the show.

chiefzilla1501
08-28-2009, 04:00 AM
"I'm Chiefzilla, and I want assurances".


I know exactly what to expect:

Cassel will look epic this year compared to so many floundering Chiefs QB's-past, while Sanchez looks less polished and struggles.

Here's the bummer; Sanchez matches or surpasses Cassel's numbers while appearing to struggle. You see, Cassel's going to have to hop and skip down to the end zone while Sanchez, when faced with 3rd down conversions of the long nature, is going to do EXACTLY the kind of shit you saw with the 50-yard bomb and the precisely placed long-yarder to Washington against the Ravens.

Oh, other bummer:

Two years from now when Cassel is still hopping and skipping, Sanchez has polished his long game to a science while making those short passes in tight coverage look like child's play.

Question asked, question answered. On with the show.

Here's another scenario. As most scouts predicted, Sanchez was underprepared for the NFL. Like most first-year rookie QBs thrown immediately into the starting position, he struggles as he learns to read complex blitz packages (which he has not yet seen in the preseason).

After the third game, the boo birds come out. And in New York, it's not just the fans, it's the media, the national TV coverage, everything. His face is plastered on every NY newspaper and he's surrounded by cameras that insult him for not being a star right away. How do you respond to that? In Leaf's case, you get angry and you stop listening to your coaches. In Harrington's case, your confidence gets rattled and you never recover. Or in Matt Leinart's case, you start living off your unearned money and don't commit to the game as you should. Or in Jamarcus Russel's case, you learn that the work ethic was never there. Or in Leftwich and Alex Smith's case, you learn that their skills don't translate on the NFL level.

These are things that New York will learn in a hurry about their QB.

Raised On Riots
08-28-2009, 04:16 AM
Here's another scenario. As most scouts predicted, Sanchez was underprepared for the NFL. Like most first-year rookie QBs thrown immediately into the starting position, he struggles as he learns to read complex blitz packages (which he has not yet seen in the preseason).

After the third game, the boo birds come out. And in New York, it's not just the fans, it's the media, the national TV coverage, everything. His face is plastered on every NY newspaper and he's surrounded by cameras that insult him for not being a star right away. How do you respond to that? In Leaf's case, you get angry and you stop listening to your coaches. In Harrington's case, your confidence gets rattled and you never recover. Or in Matt Leinart's case, you start living off your unearned money and don't commit to the game as you should. Or in Jamarcus Russel's case, you learn that the work ethic was never there. Or in Leftwich and Alex Smith's case, you learn that their skills don't translate on the NFL level.

These are things that New York will learn in a hurry about their QB.

Yeah, the New York fans can be impulsive and irrational, but their entire football community is not defined by the loud-mouthed goons who go to Radio City every year.
The Jets fans by and large know what they've got. And similar to KC fans, they now understand that quick fixes like Favre aren't going to get it done. Ryan's running a different kind of show with the media up there; he's invited them in. He's had the main movers and shakers of the local press come in and watch film with him as he explains what happened, why it happened, and if it's bad; what he'll do to make it right.

They're going through as big a transition as we are, and the old-timers who've led the call for heads to roll are now willing to hear the franchise out and exercise some patience.

chiefzilla1501
08-28-2009, 04:24 AM
Yeah, the New York fans can be impulsive and irrational, but their entire football community is not defined by the loud-mouthed goons who go to Radio City every year.
The Jets fans by and large know what they've got. And similar to KC fans, they now understand that quick fixes like Favre aren't going to get it done. Ryan's running a different kind of show with the media up there; he's invited them in. He's had the main movers and shakers of the local press come in and watch film with him as he explains what happened, why it happened, and if it's bad; what he'll do to make it right.

They're going through as big a transition as we are, and the old-timers who've led the call for heads to roll are now willing to hear the franchise out and exercise some patience.

It's still a tougher media and fan base than most markets, even if they've wisened up. You don't need a loud market to be surrounded by pressure. Harrington and Leaf played in very forgiving markets, but just buckled under pressure. Lots of QBs have done that, in fact. The point being that there are going to be a lot of mental challenges. I'm not saying Sanchez won't get through it, but it's just something you'll never know about the kid until he hits the national stage.

Reerun_KC
08-28-2009, 06:11 AM
All I keep hearing about is what draft picks can we get for him. Who cares, we draft like crap anyways!! Look at how long it has been since we drafted a pro bowler. Everyone acts like a draft pick is a sure thing. I am tired of getting all hyped up for the draft and then get nothing out of it. Thigpen earned a spot, maybe a chance to become better maybe not. But what does it hurt to keep him.

Why are you posting this on a message board when not one person has anything to do with keeping him..

Its up to Pioli and Haley, they can see that if the dude blows or not...

All you little thiglettes are going to be crushed with our new GM and HC when they keep taking out Herms trash....

JASONSAUTO
08-28-2009, 07:23 AM
Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

what the fuck does draft status have to do with being a franchise QB? that is just a stupid thing to say

JASONSAUTO
08-28-2009, 07:26 AM
Wow, talk about disingenous.

Did Trent Dilfer play to the level expected of a franchise QB his entire career?

Or did he fall ass-backwards into the perfect spot, with the perfect team?

Had Peyton Manning played like Neil Lomax for 8 seasons, and then won a SB, we wouldn't be calling him a franchise QB either.

has eli manning played at a franchise level his WHOLE career?

sedated
08-28-2009, 08:29 AM
If that doesn't explain what a ****ing retard you are, nothing will.

The guy was only a SBMVP before getting to Arizona...

oh, you mean the kurt warner that became a journeyman backup for a few years after his run in STL ended?

and even when he was in STL, who were his offensive teammates? Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Pace - most likely all hall of famers, or close.



(but warner can't be a "franchise guy" anyway, since he wasn't drafted high enough to fit your criteria)

sedated
08-28-2009, 08:31 AM
Emmitt Smith, hands down.

we will have to agree to disagree.

unless I can take the 90's Cowboys offensive line along with Emmitt, I'm taking Barry Sanders, hands down.

sedated
08-28-2009, 08:42 AM
If that doesn't explain what a ****ing retard you are, nothing will.

calm down there, bro. its just a discussion of opinions. take a deep breath or two before you have an aneurysm.

JD10367
08-28-2009, 09:21 AM
None of that shit matters because he's a former Patriot. A product the Great Piolichick. A God among men from New England.

New England; where micro-brews flow through the rivers and streams so fresh and clean, you can dip your bottle in and taste Ambrosia. Where the sewers smell like a Lilly patch, and the turds transform in to chocolate bars as the piss becomes lemonade!
Where $100.00 bills grow from every chloroform-based vegetation as Prime Rib is hand delivered to your front door by Playboy Bunnies!
And where the Greatest Quarterbacks you'll ever be lucky enough to have pawned-off on you, you worthless, ****ing non-New England-ite, shall NEVER be questioned, only Praised and Worshiped.

You infidel.

Are you done being a dick?

Here's the other viewpoint.

Cassel has spent the past few seasons under one of the best HCs ever to be in the NFL, and has studied one of the best QBs ever to be in the NFL.

You don't think he's learned a thing or two from that?

You don't think that experience might count for something?

Or how about the fact that Pioli, who was also a partner in crime with that duo, picked Cassel, knows Cassel, and knows how to best help Cassel?

Some of you are sticking it up Cassel's ass before he's even thrown a pass in the NFL for you. Jesus H. on a f**king raft.

What's Sanchez's pedigree? He's a 22-year old who played for three seasons at USC (the college equivalent to New England, BTW... so let's talk about how much help Sanchez, like Cassel, had in looking good) and came out early. According to Wikipedia, that great fountain of knowledge, the last USC QB to come out early was Todd Marinovich. How'd that work out?

Raised On Riots
08-28-2009, 12:43 PM
Are you done being a dick?




That was my response to the convoluted, up-down all-around the bend "logic" of Just Peddling Malarkey throughout the debate in this thread.
Back-pedal and goal-post move-age be his name.

wild1
08-28-2009, 01:02 PM
has eli manning played at a franchise level his WHOLE career?

2008 86.4
2007 73.9
2006 77.0
2005 75.9
2004 55.4

Count Zarth
08-29-2009, 08:37 PM
I like Tyler Thigpen. I’m not afraid to admit it, and I know some savvy NFL scouts/executives who value him, too.

http://i31.tinypic.com/29f80si.gif

Raised On Riots
08-29-2009, 09:02 PM
NEWS FLASH:

There is NO FUCKING CASE FOR TYLER THIGPEN.

HE SUCKS.

KCJohnny
08-29-2009, 09:18 PM
I didn't see the game (I am in Korea) but one bad game does not a football player make. Even if Thigpen was putrid, wasn't he in with the 2nd unit?

Its water under the bridge now, but paying $60 mil for a guy who threw 21 TDs in the same exact offense that Brady rang up 50 with isn't my idea of personnel genius. Thigpen's 22 scores last year were not a fluke, and he did it in 3/4s of a season with a 2-14 team.

If Cassel goes down and Thigpen is in Jax, KC will be in the same exact spot they were in last year (unless Brodie can stay healthy) when the #3 QB had to finish the season. At least Thigpen has experience with Gailey's O.

I don't like Haley, and I never thought the 9-7 Cards were the team to emulate.

JuicesFlowing
08-29-2009, 09:18 PM
I'm putting this motherfucking thread on ignore RIGHT NOW.

Raised On Riots
08-29-2009, 09:24 PM
I'm putting this motherfucking thread on ignore RIGHT NOW.

It's not even funny anymore. This guy is a fucking LIABILITY to the 1,000,000,000,000,000nth degree.

He is absolutely fucking dead to me, and I want him NOWHERE near this team.

Count Zarth
08-29-2009, 09:31 PM
I don't like Haley

You loved Herm.

Retard.

Reerun_KC
08-29-2009, 09:35 PM
Only case Thigpen needs to worry about is this one...

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/images/suitcase.jpg

pr_capone
08-29-2009, 09:36 PM
You loved Herm.

Retard.

So did you for a long while.

AND Huard.

AND DVD.

AND Mike Brown.

AND WPI.

STFU

Reerun_KC
08-29-2009, 09:38 PM
So did you for a long while.

AND DVD.

AND Mike Brown.

AND WPI.

STFU

someone need some ICE for that burn...

Dont forget the Huard lovefest we endured during the 06 season...:banghead:

Raised On Riots
08-29-2009, 09:39 PM
Only case Thigpen needs to worry about is this one...

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/images/suitcase.jpg

You gotta' make him fit:

http://www.deathonline.net/images/what_happens/saw.jpg

pr_capone
08-29-2009, 09:40 PM
someone need some ICE for that burn...

Dont forget the Huard lovefest we endured during the 06 season...:banghead:

Thank you... edited my original post.

UsualSuspects
08-29-2009, 09:41 PM
Oh come back CP.

WTF!

BigMeatballDave
08-29-2009, 09:43 PM
At least Thigpen has experience with Gailey's O.

I don't like Haley, and I never thought the 9-7 Cards were the team to emulate.First, this O is different than last yrs. Second, the Cards were in the SB, Tard.

Also, you stll think Gunther is a good coach.

Count Zarth
09-10-2009, 09:51 PM
So Thigpen, as a second-year pro with no prior experience and a last-place roster around him, threw for 2,608 yards and 18 TDs with 12 interceptions in the first 11 starts of his career. And Roethlisberger, already fully polished and with a Super Bowl-quality roster around him, threw for 3,301 yards and 17 TDs with 15 interceptions in 16 games. Hmm, interesting. And Roethlisberger had as many turnovers as Thigpen did scores.

FAIL