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***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 08:49 AM
Here's another story completely ignored by the MSM:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/11/05/2008-11-05_brooklyn_marine_sergeant__wife_tortured_-2.html

Four Black Marines murder a fellow Marine, and rape and murder his wife--- because of their racist hatred, and the story is ignored by the MSM.

This is what the four pieces of garbage look like:

http://www.hicktownpress.com/4-rogue-marines-torture-execute-their-marine-sergeant-his-wife/

Donger
08-30-2009, 08:57 AM
I see nothing about rape, nor the skin color of the accused.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 09:00 AM
I see nothing about rape, nor the skin color of the accused.

I edited the post and put a link that provides those details (that the MSM conveniently threw down the memory hole).

blaise
08-30-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm sure Jesse Jackson will be along shortly to condemn the racist nature of the crime.
I'll just hold my breath.

mlyonsd
08-30-2009, 10:46 AM
Nov. 2008?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 10:48 AM
Nov. 2008?

Exactly, and we're just finding out about it now.

But ten years later and we're still hearing about some fayg who got strapped up to a fence in Montana by two losers he cruised in a gay bar.

jAZ
08-30-2009, 10:57 AM
...because of their racist hatred...
Can you post the article where you read the movtive was "their racist hatred"?

That would be useful in clearing any suspicious of your own racism at play in your review of the story. Because that article said nothing about racism being a motive.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 11:16 AM
Can you post the article where you read the movtive was "their racist hatred"?

That would be useful in clearing any suspicious of your own racism at play in your review of the story. Because that article said nothing about racism being a motive.

Quit playing stupid----

Wait, never mind.

:drool:

mlyonsd
08-30-2009, 11:23 AM
Exactly, and we're just finding out about it now.

But ten years later and we're still hearing about some fayg who got strapped up to a fence in Montana by two losers he cruised in a gay bar.

I haven't noticed any stories in the MSM about the gay guy in Montana for....as long as I can remember.

I usually act as the MSM police but I really don't understand the relevance of this thread.

It was a horrible crime comitted by people that should be hung, if found guilty. End of story. You're speculating way too much here IMO.

jAZ
08-30-2009, 11:25 AM
Quit playing stupid----

Wait, never mind.

:drool:

Sorry, the only motive provided anywhere in the article was "financial gain". Please post the "racist" text you read. Thanks.

jAZ
08-30-2009, 11:26 AM
You're speculating way too much here IMO.

So I'm not missing the part of the article that says "racism" was the motive?

mlyonsd
08-30-2009, 11:29 AM
So I'm not missing the part of the article that says "racism" was the motive?

I don't see it. It's not even speculation from the author's of the two articles.

Brock
08-30-2009, 11:30 AM
Investigators say the motive was financial gain.

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 11:44 AM
I am a no bullshit person. What is your deal? are you a racist? You seem to post threads showing black people in poor form. IMO there is just as high of % of racism with all races. The reason I ask is you appear to point your finger yelling look how bad they are. This gives the impression that you are justifying a hatred you have. This added with a signature that shows men that were known racist men. If you are be a man and own it, if not then say so.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 12:23 PM
I am a no bullshit person. What is your deal? are you a racist? You seem to post threads showing black people in poor form. IMO there is just as high of % of racism with all races. The reason I ask is you appear to point your finger yelling look how bad they are. This gives the impression that you are justifying a hatred you have. This added with a signature that shows men that were known racist men. If you are be a man and own it, if not then say so.

I see. So if I post an article that "shows black people in poor form" that makes me a racist?

blaise
08-30-2009, 12:23 PM
Even though the article doesn't mention racism, I do believe that had this been four white marines that murdered a black marine married to a white woman this would have been all over the news.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 12:27 PM
Even though the article doesn't mention racism, I do believe that had this been four white marines that murdered a black marine married to a white woman this would have been all over the news.

It took courage to say that. As that's sad when you think about it.

But hey, reality scares the shit out of people. Guys like me make some people very uncomfortable with what goes on in their own heads. So they project it on me. I understand.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 12:53 PM
I am a no bullshit person. What is your deal? are you a racist? You seem to post threads showing black people in poor form. IMO there is just as high of % of racism with all races. The reason I ask is you appear to point your finger yelling look how bad they are. This gives the impression that you are justifying a hatred you have. This added with a signature that shows men that were known racist men. If you are be a man and own it, if not then say so.

I think the problem is perception---

I don't think I've shown any hatred towards blacks. What I've shown is contempt. But in this saturated with political correctness environment, ANY CRITICISM OF ANYBODY BLACK is criticism.

My issue is with political correctness, not black people. Do I turn black people into the metaphorical rope in my tug of war with the thought police? No, the thought police did that. And they figured I wouldn't pull back because they could call me a racist.

Well I don't care, call me all the names you want. I won't be silenced by the thought police, even if I cause collateral damage to non-moonbats.

As for the men in my sig, I don't think you could define them as "racists" any more than you could Abraham Lincoln. I think they all shared similar ideologies, they just had different agendas.

|Zach|
08-30-2009, 01:58 PM
It took courage to say that. As that's sad when you think about it.

But hey, reality scares the shit out of people. Guys like me make some people very uncomfortable with what goes on in their own heads. So they project it on me. I understand.

Ok, lets be honest here. Posting anything on a message board does not take courage. No matter what opinion it is.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 02:00 PM
Ok then,Piece of Shitsprayer, you are fucking racist. Because you see every story as something to bitch about how the poor white man is being abused and the blacks and gays are getting all the breaks.

Get over it for fucks sake.

I love your line "I don't hate black people, I have contempt for them"

Oh yeah, no problem there. Where's your fuckin hood?
Posted via Mobile Device

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 02:02 PM
Ok, lets be honest here. Posting anything on a message board does not take courage. No matter what opinion it is.

Well that's an interesting thought.

So you are saying that everybody who posts here is completely honest--- not holding anything back?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 02:04 PM
Ok then,Piece of Shitsprayer, you are ****ing racist. Because you see every story as something to bitch about how the poor white man is being abused and the blacks and gays are getting all the breaks.

Get over it for ****s sake.

I love your line "I don't hate black people, I have contempt for them"

Oh yeah, no problem there. Where's your ****in hood?
Posted via Mobile Device

I have contempt for an 80% illigitamacy rate, yeah. I have contempt for middle aged white guys who hero worship guys like Derrick Thomas, who had 6 illigitimate kids with three different women. I think that's sick.

What do you think about that?

BucEyedPea
08-30-2009, 02:10 PM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the govt having to lower the standards for enrollment whereby they were recruiting men from gangs and other criminal ranks?

Very, very sad.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 02:16 PM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the govt having to lower the standards for enrollment whereby they were recruiting men from gangs and other criminal ranks?

Very, very sad.

Of course standards have been lowered. But shhhhhhh... we can't talk about it.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 02:18 PM
I have contempt for an 80% illigitamacy rate, yeah. I have contempt for middle aged white guys who hero worship guys like Derrick Thomas, who had 6 illigitimate kids with three different women. I think that's sick.

What do you think about that?

Yes because only black celebrities father illegitimate kids. Labeling a whole race of people as this or that is fucking racist

That's what I think about that.
Posted via Mobile Device

NewChief
08-30-2009, 02:20 PM
I think the problem is perception---

I don't think I've shown any hatred towards blacks. What I've shown is contempt. But in this saturated with political correctness environment, ANY CRITICISM OF ANYBODY BLACK is criticism.

My issue is with political correctness, not black people. Do I turn black people into the metaphorical rope in my tug of war with the thought police? No, the thought police did that. And they figured I wouldn't pull back because they could call me a racist.

Well I don't care, call me all the names you want. I won't be silenced by the thought police, even if I cause collateral damage to non-moonbats.

As for the men in my sig, I don't think you could define them as "racists" any more than you could Abraham Lincoln. I think they all shared similar ideologies, they just had different agendas.

Thank you internet freedom warrior for all that you do. Thank you for using your recovery time between pud pulls to safeguard the American way of life through your courageous posts on an internet message board. It's people like you who make me proud to be an American.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 02:23 PM
Yes because only black celebrities father illegitimate kids. Labeling a whole race of people as this or that is ****ing racist

That's what I think about that.
Posted via Mobile Device

White celebrities do not represent white people as a whole, but black celebrities have the same illigitimacy rates as non-black celebrities.

Keep going, moonbat.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 02:24 PM
Thank you internet freedom warrior for all that you do. Thank you for using your recovery time between pud pulls to safeguard the American way of life through your courageous posts on an internet message board. It's people like you who make me proud to be an American.

I make you uncomfortable, I understand. You've bought into a bS ideology and my facts conflict with that, which causes cognitive dissonance. Carry on, moonbat.

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 02:25 PM
I think the problem is perception---

I don't think I've shown any hatred towards blacks. What I've shown is contempt. But in this saturated with political correctness environment, ANY CRITICISM OF ANYBODY BLACK is criticism.

My issue is with political correctness, not black people. Do I turn black people into the metaphorical rope in my tug of war with the thought police? No, the thought police did that. And they figured I wouldn't pull back because they could call me a racist.

Well I don't care, call me all the names you want. I won't be silenced by the thought police, even if I cause collateral damage to non-moonbats.

As for the men in my sig, I don't think you could define them as "racists" any more than you could Abraham Lincoln. I think they all shared similar ideologies, they just had different agendas.

I asked because I just wondered, no other reason. I asked a simple question and received a rather complicated answer. I am very far from politically correct. While going through school we had riots it was early mid 70s. Black were first bused to my grade school and to be truthful there was racism. Not like most would think it was the majority of them that hated us. We were curious about them and they were rude loud and cruel.

They would badger people and when they stood up to them they would jump them in a pack. We were shocked that someone would gang up several against one. We had always settled fights one on one. This escalated as we went to jr high. Many whites were scared and would not stand up to them, several of us were not. I fought with them and never once did I start it. It took me many years to get past that.

For years if some guy bump into me at a club that was white I would assume first it was an accident if it was a black guy I immediately thought he must be starting shit. I put most of that behind me. But I will not lie there still is some resentment deep down. I don't lie about it I own it. So yes I have some issues but like the movie "I ain't never ****ed nobody that did not have it coming to them" I feel there are many who hide their feelings and play politically correct, I don't.

NewChief
08-30-2009, 02:25 PM
I make you uncomfortable, I understand. You've bought into a bS ideology and my facts conflict with that, which causes cognitive dissonance. Carry on, moonbat.

If by discomfort, you mean my belly hurts from laughing at your idiocy, you're correct.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 02:26 PM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the govt having to lower the standards for enrollment whereby they were recruiting men from gangs and other criminal ranks?

Very, very sad.

Because all government applications are filtered through the EEOC, a black militant, unelected government beauracracy.

You want to do a fun experiment? Register two accounts WITH THE SAME EXACT RESUME AND PROFILE on USAJOBS.GOV and apply for the same jobs as a white male and a black male. See which one gets the feedback.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 02:42 PM
I asked because I just wondered, no other reason. I asked a simple question and received a rather complicated answer..

It's a complicated issue.

I am very far from politically correct. While going through school we had riots it was early mid 70s. Black were first bused to my grade school and to be truthful there was racism. Not like most would think it was the majority of them that hated us. We were curious about them and they were rude loud and cruel.

Yep, they get belligerent and if you retaliate, you're the racist. Been there, done that.

They would badger people and when they stood up to them they would jump them in a pack.

We had a "joke"

What do you call a fight between one white guy and 5 black guys?

A fair fight.

We were shocked that someone would gang up several against one.

Violence is a primary form of communication for them.

We had always settled fights one on one. This escalated as we went to jr high. Many whites were scared and would not stand up to them, several of us were not. I fought with them and never once did I start it. It took me many years to get past that.

You're preaching to the choir.

For years if some guy bump into me at a club that was white I would assume first it was an accident if it was a black guy I immediately thought he must be starting shit. I put most of that behind me. But I will not lie there still is some resentment deep down.

Why not? Someone convinced you that you are not entitled to your anger? That's a big part of your life, ruined because of their BS behavior. And all the while, we were being told that just because we were/are white, it's our fault.



I don't lie about it I own it. So yes I have some issues but like the movie "I ain't never ****ed nobody that did not have it coming to them" I feel there are many who hide their feelings and play politically correct, I don't

YOu're more diplomatic than me, that's the only difference. We've both been traumatized by shit we didn't cause.

I never did nothing to them. Nothing.

I swear to you, I hate these f'n moonbats.

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 02:53 PM
It's a complicated issue.

I am very far from politically correct. While going through school we had riots it was early mid 70s. Black were first bused to my grade school and to be truthful there was racism. Not like most would think it was the majority of them that hated us. We were curious about them and they were rude loud and cruel.

Yep, they get belligerent and if you retaliate, you're the racist. Been there, done that.

They would badger people and when they stood up to them they would jump them in a pack.

We had a "joke"

What do you call a fight between one white guy and 5 black guys?

A fair fight.

We were shocked that someone would gang up several against one.

Violence is a primary form of communication for them.

We had always settled fights one on one. This escalated as we went to jr high. Many whites were scared and would not stand up to them, several of us were not. I fought with them and never once did I start it. It took me many years to get past that.

You're preaching to the choir.

For years if some guy bump into me at a club that was white I would assume first it was an accident if it was a black guy I immediately thought he must be starting shit. I put most of that behind me. But I will not lie there still is some resentment deep down.

Why not? Someone convinced you that you are not entitled to your anger? That's a big part of your life, ruined because of their BS behavior. And all the while, we were being told that just because we were/are white, it's our fault.



I don't lie about it I own it. So yes I have some issues but like the movie "I ain't never ****ed nobody that did not have it coming to them" I feel there are many who hide their feelings and play politically correct, I don't

YOu're more diplomatic than me, that's the only difference. We've both been traumatized by shit we didn't cause.

I never did nothing to them. Nothing.

I swear to you, I hate these f'n moonbats.

I have met and have made friends with several blacks over the years and realized that life ain't worth living full of hate. I don't let people live rent free in my head and do not obsess. I was far from traumatized. Judging the entire race by the trouble makers I fought with is as silly as them judging the white race by half wit KKK members.

|Zach|
08-30-2009, 03:04 PM
Well that's an interesting thought.

So you are saying that everybody who posts here is completely honest--- not holding anything back?

No, it isn't about honesty. It is about the myth you are creating that typing anything behind a keyboard on this message board is a courageous act. No matter what it is.

Any coward douchebag can act like a tough or smart guy on the internet.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:05 PM
It's a complicated issue.

I am very far from politically correct. While going through school we had riots it was early mid 70s. Black were first bused to my grade school and to be truthful there was racism. Not like most would think it was the majority of them that hated us. We were curious about them and they were rude loud and cruel.

Yep, they get belligerent and if you retaliate, you're the racist. Been there, done that.

They would badger people and when they stood up to them they would jump them in a pack.

We had a "joke"

What do you call a fight between one white guy and 5 black guys?

A fair fight.

We were shocked that someone would gang up several against one.

Violence is a primary form of communication for them.

We had always settled fights one on one. This escalated as we went to jr high. Many whites were scared and would not stand up to them, several of us were not. I fought with them and never once did I start it. It took me many years to get past that.

You're preaching to the choir.

For years if some guy bump into me at a club that was white I would assume first it was an accident if it was a black guy I immediately thought he must be starting shit. I put most of that behind me. But I will not lie there still is some resentment deep down.

Why not? Someone convinced you that you are not entitled to your anger? That's a big part of your life, ruined because of their BS behavior. And all the while, we were being told that just because we were/are white, it's our fault.



I don't lie about it I own it. So yes I have some issues but like the movie "I ain't never ****ed nobody that did not have it coming to them" I feel there are many who hide their feelings and play politically correct, I don't

YOu're more diplomatic than me, that's the only difference. We've both been traumatized by shit we didn't cause.

I never did nothing to them. Nothing.

I swear to you, I hate these f'n moonbats.

I thought you didn't hate black people? Which is it Racistsprayer? You sound like the guy from American History X. Try therapy.
Posted via Mobile Device

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:08 PM
I have met and have made friends with several blacks over the years and realized that life ain't worth living full of hate. I don't let people live rent free in my head and do not obsess. I was far from traumatized. Judging the entire race by the trouble makers I fought with is as silly as them judging the white race by half wit KKK members.

Dude, you were traumatized. You were a victim, but you were made to feel like you did something wrong. You might think that it's all water under the bridge, but it's still unresolved.

And I got news for you, as far as your "friends" go---

When the line gets drawn in the sand they won't blink when they drop you.

It's never gonna stop because they don't want it to stop.

Look at B.O., man. Look at that piece of shit and his angry haradin of a wife, and all the radical, marxist scumbags he's hired on as "czars" or made them attorney general.

And this guy came with a bill of sale that he was the "post racial" president. And these are all educated people. They never got sprayed by a fire hose in Alabama. Give me a f'n break.

ROFL

Meanwhile you have this media created sob fest for Ted Kennedy. Remember when they were bussing white kids in South Boston into black schools? Where they would get the shit kicked out them?

No Kennedy ever got bussed. That fat piece of f'n garbage.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:10 PM
I thought you didn't hate black people? Which is it Racistsprayer? You sound like the guy from American History X. Try therapy.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli, any follow up on Derrick Thomas' six illigitimate kids? How they doing these days?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:11 PM
No, it isn't about honesty. It is about the myth you are creating that typing anything behind a keyboard on this message board is a courageous act. No matter what it is.

Any coward douchebag can act like a tough or smart guy on the internet.

Is that what I'm doing? Is that what you are doing?

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:14 PM
Pioli, any follow up on Derrick Thomas' six illigitimate kids? How they doing these days?

Why single out DT, ya racist dumbass?
Posted via Mobile Device

patteeu
08-30-2009, 03:16 PM
Can you post the article where you read the movtive was "their racist hatred"?

That would be useful in clearing any suspicious of your own racism at play in your review of the story. Because that article said nothing about racism being a motive.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/04/03/2009-04-03_grim_twist_in_tortureslay_of_marine_sgt_.html

After insisting for months the Pietrzaks were slain by four other Marines for their money, a key prosecution witness dropped a bombshell Friday - racist remarks were spray-painted in the couple's California home.

The words "N----- Lover" were found on the wall near the master bedroom and on a bathroom mirror, Riverside County Homicide Investigator Benjamin Ramirez testified.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:18 PM
Dude, you were traumatized. You were a victim, but you were made to feel like you did something wrong. You might think that it's all water under the bridge, but it's still unresolved.

And I got news for you, as far as your "friends" go---

When the line gets drawn in the sand they won't blink when they drop you.

It's never gonna stop because they don't want it to stop.

Look at B.O., man. Look at that piece of shit and his angry haradin of a wife, and all the radical, marxist scumbags he's hired on as "czars" or made them attorney general.

And this guy came with a bill of sale that he was the "post racial" president. And these are all educated people. They never got sprayed by a fire hose in Alabama. Give me a f'n break.

ROFL

Meanwhile you have this media created sob fest for Ted Kennedy. Remember when they were bussing white kids in South Boston into black schools? Where they would get the shit kicked out them?

No Kennedy ever got bussed. That fat piece of f'n garbage.

Oh....my....God
Who are you to tell RedNeckRaider what is resloved or unresolved for him? You got the training down pat, don't you? What rung up the latter are you in your states KKK?

How about Jews? You like Jews, Shitty?
Posted via Mobile Device

patteeu
08-30-2009, 03:18 PM
Thank you internet freedom warrior for all that you do. Thank you for using your recovery time between pud pulls to safeguard the American way of life through your courageous posts on an internet message board. It's people like you who make me proud to be an American.

LMAO

NewChief
08-30-2009, 03:18 PM
Violence is a primary form of communication for them.



Wow. Just wow.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:21 PM
Why single out DT, ya racist dumbass?
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm not singling him out, he's the obvious choice, you mouth foamer. You moonbats created the narrative that "if we just give blacks a chance to get an education and get a good paying job, then the dysfunctional behavior will stop"

Well, he was educated. He had millions of dollars. Still acted like a ghetto piece of trash.

I'd just like for you to explain it to me. I mean, it wasn't racism, he was hero worshipped by white shitheads like you.

So why is it that blacks have an 80% illigitmacy rate in the United States of America in 2009?

Riddle me this, Batman.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 03:22 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/04/03/2009-04-03_grim_twist_in_tortureslay_of_marine_sgt_.html

ssssssssssshhhhhhhhh

NewChief
08-30-2009, 03:22 PM
I'm not singling him out, he's the obvious choice, you mouth foamer. You moonbats created the narrative that "if we just give blacks a chance to get an education and get a good paying job, then the dysfunctional behavior will stop"

Well, he was educated. He had millions of dollars. Still acted like a ghetto piece of trash.

I'd just like for you to explain it to me. I mean, it wasn't racism, he was hero worshipped by white shitheads like you.

So why is it that blacks have an 80% illigitmacy rate in the United States of America in 2009?

Riddle me this, Batman.

Clearly because they're genetically inferior to whites.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:23 PM
Who's "them" shitty?

What time is your cross burning tonight?
Posted via Mobile Device

patteeu
08-30-2009, 03:23 PM
No, it isn't about honesty. It is about the myth you are creating that typing anything behind a keyboard on this message board is a courageous act. No matter what it is.

Any coward douchebag can act like a tough or smart guy on the internet.

That may be, but despite the fact that they could, there are still a lot of douchebags (and regular people) who are too cowardly to reject political correctness, even on the internet. You can deny it all you want, but everyone, including both of us, know you're wrong.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:24 PM
Wow. Just wow.

It is. They get into an argument, they shoot each other for crying out loud. It's always stupid shit, too like "he made fun of my shoes".

If you don't believe me, move on into a predominately black neighborhood and send your kids to their schools.

But you won't do that, will you?

patteeu
08-30-2009, 03:24 PM
Why single out DT, ya racist dumbass?

This is a football message board is it not?

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 03:25 PM
Dude, you were traumatized. You were a victim, but you were made to feel like you did something wrong. You might think that it's all water under the bridge, but it's still unresolved.

And I got news for you, as far as your "friends" go---

When the line gets drawn in the sand they won't blink when they drop you.

It's never gonna stop because they don't want it to stop.

I still hang with the same people I have hung out my whole life. I have several "friends" in life but only a handful that are people I know would never betray me. As far as water under the bridge it is. Nobody has ever tried to make me feel like I did something wrong because I did nothing wrong I stood my ground. I raised my kids the same way, do not start trouble but stand your ground. Always defend the weak. I taught them how to defend themselves and not be victims.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:25 PM
That may be, but despite the fact that they could, there are still a lot of douchebags (and regular people) who are too cowardly to reject political correctness, even on the internet. You can deny it all you want, but everyone, including both of us, know you're wrong.

Rejecting PC is one thing. Being a dumbass, shit for brains, racist is another.
Posted via Mobile Device

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:26 PM
Who's "them" shitty?

What time is your cross burning tonight?
Posted via Mobile Device

Why do you keep trying to create your own BS narrative?

Explain to me why blacks have an illigitimacy rate just under 80%.

Please, I'm here to listen and learn. Save me from my ignorance.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 03:27 PM
Rejecting PC is one thing. Being a dumbass, shit for brains, racist is another.
Posted via Mobile Device

When was the last time a black person was inside your house for social reasons?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:27 PM
Rejecting PC is one thing. Being a dumbass, shit for brains, racist is another.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wait a second.

4 black Marines torture and murder their whit Sergeant, rape, torture and murder his black wife, but i"m the racist?

I got news for you, I have never, nor will I ever, rape and murder anyone, for any reason.

But I'm the bad guy? In moonbatville, perhaps.

mlyonsd
08-30-2009, 03:28 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/04/03/2009-04-03_grim_twist_in_tortureslay_of_marine_sgt_.html

That could be taken two ways. Either the killers were true racists or trying to cover their tracks.

patteeu
08-30-2009, 03:28 PM
Rejecting PC is one thing. Being a dumbass, shit for brains, racist is another.
Posted via Mobile Device

Zach was taking issue with SHTSPRAYER's point about political correctness. So yes, it is "another", but it's also beside the point.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:28 PM
When was the last time a black person was inside your house for social reasons?

Great question but you know he'll come up with a BS answer.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:29 PM
When was the last time a black person was inside your house for social reasons?
About a month ago, why? I've also worked with blacks, gone to church with blacks,and dated blacks.

How about you?
Posted via Mobile Device

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 03:30 PM
About a month ago, why? I've also worked with blacks, gone to church with blacks,and dated blacks.

How about you?
Posted via Mobile Device

About an hour ago, actually.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:30 PM
That could be taken two ways. Either the killers were true racists or trying to cover their tracks.

I agree, but they tortured him before killing him. They tortured and raped his wife before killing her.

Call it hate, call it what you want.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 03:30 PM
About a month ago, why? I've also worked with blacks, gone to church with blacks,and dated blacks.

How about you?
Posted via Mobile Device

Riiiiiiiiiight. You are so full of shit.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 03:31 PM
About a month ago, why? I've also worked with blacks, gone to church with blacks,and dated blacks.

How about you?
Posted via Mobile Device

When was the last time a white person was in your house for social reasons?

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:33 PM
Wait a second.

4 black Marines torture and murder their whit Sergeant, rape, torture and murder his black wife, but i"m the racist?

I got news for you, I have never, nor will I ever, rape and murder anyone, for any reason.

But I'm the bad guy? In moonbatville, perhaps.

Ok now you are backtracking to the single story. This is not why you are a racist. Its the one thing after another blacks this and blacks that bullshit you continually vomit on this board.
You never answered my question about Jews. Do you like Jews Shitty?
Posted via Mobile Device

patteeu
08-30-2009, 03:34 PM
That could be taken two ways. Either the killers were true racists or trying to cover their tracks.

Sure. I'm not a fan of hate crimes in part because these things aren't usually objectively determinable. You can bet that if the perpetrators were white and something similar was found on the wall that the hate crime advocates would be all over it though.

In addition to the writing on the wall, it's not all that common for people to rape and torture their victims when robbery is the only motive. It's not a huge stretch for the victims' families or for SHTSPRAYER to conclude that something other than lust for money was involved, IMO.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:35 PM
When was the last time a white person was in your house for social reasons?

Wtf, I don't know, maybe 3 weeks? What's your point?

Do you socialize with blacks at all?
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:36 PM
Riiiiiiiiiight. You are so full of shit.
And you know this how?
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 03:39 PM
Where did the racist go? Late for his Klan meeting?
Posted via Mobile Device

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 03:44 PM
Sure. I'm not a fan of hate crimes in part because these things aren't usually objectively determinable. You can bet that if the perpetrators were white and something similar was found on the wall that the hate crime advocates would be all over it though.

In addition to the writing on the wall, it's not all that common for people to rape and torture their victims when robbery is the only motive. It's not a huge stretch for the victims' families or for SHTSPRAYER to conclude that something other than lust for money was involved, IMO.

That is a fact had this been three white guys killing a black guy and raping his white wife. And writing nigger lover on the wall Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and crew would be turning this into a circus. I got side tracked and kind of high jacked the thread

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 03:48 PM
Wtf, I don't know, maybe 3 weeks? What's your point?

Do you socialize with blacks at all?
Posted via Mobile Device

I just find it interesting that it's been so long since you had a black person in your house. It leads me to believe that you live in a predominantly white neighborhood.

I just told you that I had a black friend over at my house about an hour ago, so the answer would be yes. I live in a nice neighborhood that happens to be pretty diverse. My next door neighbor is black. The family directly across the street is black/hispanic, and the neighbor who came over today and lives about 3 houses down is black. All of them are excellent people. We are all friends.

None of this changes the fact that black culture, in general, has a disproportionately large number of issues of their own making. They will never become societal equals until these issues are addressed. The US can not reach it's potential when an ethnic group that makes up 15% of its population is mired in such a large cultural mess.

They need to be called on it, but anybody who does so is immediately castigated, so I don't know if it's ever going to happen. I don't agree with SPRAYER'S methods, but there is usually a kernel of truth in his message. It could be argued that the person who denies the obvious does more harm than the SPRAYERS of the world who call them as they see them (in an admittedly undiplomatic and possibly racist manner).

Halfcan
08-30-2009, 03:57 PM
sick

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 03:58 PM
sick

What part?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 04:02 PM
When was the last time a white person was in your house for social reasons?

ROFL

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:08 PM
I just find it interesting that it's been so long since you had a black person in your house. It leads me to believe that you live in a predominantly white neighborhood.

I just told you that I had a black friend over at my house about an hour ago, so the answer would be yes. I live in a nice neighborhood that happens to be pretty diverse. My next door neighbor is black. The family directly across the street is black/hispanic, and the neighbor who came over today and lives about 3 houses down is black. All of them are excellent people. We are all friends.

None of this changes the fact that black culture, in general, has a disproportionately large number of issues of their own making. They will never become societal equals until these issues are addressed. The US can not reach it's potential when an ethnic group that makes up 15% of its population is mired in such a large cultural mess.

They need to be called on it, but anybody who does so is immediately castigated, so I don't know if it's ever going to happen. I don't agree with SPRAYER'S methods, but there is usually a kernel of truth in his message. It could be argued that the person who denies the obvious does more harm than the SPRAYERS of the world who call them as they see them (in an admittedly undiplomatic and possibly racist manner).

Ok. You get a medal for seeing a black person an hour ago. Generalizing about an entire race is still racist. I picked this neighborhood because it has a lake and a pool. I really haven't counted the number of blacks as I'm not obsessed by it like some people are.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:10 PM
ROFL

When was the last time you told a black person how you felt to his face internet brave guy?
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:16 PM
I just find it interesting that it's been so long since you had a black person in your house. It leads me to believe that you live in a predominantly white neighborhood.

I just told you that I had a black friend over at my house about an hour ago, so the answer would be yes. I live in a nice neighborhood that happens to be pretty diverse. My next door neighbor is black. The family directly across the street is black/hispanic, and the neighbor who came over today and lives about 3 houses down is black. All of them are excellent people. We are all friends.

None of this changes the fact that black culture, in general, has a disproportionately large number of issues of their own making. They will never become societal equals until these issues are addressed. The US can not reach it's potential when an ethnic group that makes up 15% of its population is mired in such a large cultural mess.

They need to be called on it, but anybody who does so is immediately castigated, so I don't know if it's ever going to happen. I don't agree with SPRAYER'S methods, but there is usually a kernel of truth in his message. It could be argued that the person who denies the obvious does more harm than the SPRAYERS of the world who call them as they see them (in an admittedly undiplomatic and possibly racist manner).
Do you tell your black "friends" they are not "societal eaqual" and its their fault and that america will never reach its potential because of them?

Talk about being full of shit.
Posted via Mobile Device

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 04:22 PM
Do you tell your black "friends" they are not "societal eaqual" and its their fault and that america will never reach its potential because of them?

Talk about being full of shit.
Posted via Mobile Device

Shut up, Dork.

ROFL

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 04:23 PM
When was the last time you told a black person how you felt to his face internet brave guy?
Posted via Mobile Device

:deevee:

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:24 PM
Shut up, Dork.

ROFL

Shut up, Dork. That's what you got? I expected more from a Grand Wizard.
Posted via Mobile Device

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 04:24 PM
[/i][/size]

By the way, I just added to your neg rep. You loser.

Messier
08-30-2009, 04:25 PM
Shut up, Dork. That's what you got? I expected more from a Grand Wizard.
Posted via Mobile Device

You are making his day right now.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:26 PM
:deevee:

You need to date a black woman. It would do you good.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:27 PM
By the way, I just added to your neg rep. You loser.
Haha. This shit again? Skip! Is that you??
Posted via Mobile Device

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 04:28 PM
You need to date a black woman. It would do you good.
Posted via Mobile Device

Thats clever.

I'm married to one.

googlegoogle
08-30-2009, 04:35 PM
this is an old story. repost most likely.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 04:38 PM
You need to date a black woman. It would do you good.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah like you and your little 3 incher would know.

Pablo
08-30-2009, 04:40 PM
Oh Bam!

Cock jokes. Bring out the big guns why don't ya?

mlyonsd
08-30-2009, 04:44 PM
Sure. I'm not a fan of hate crimes in part because these things aren't usually objectively determinable. You can bet that if the perpetrators were white and something similar was found on the wall that the hate crime advocates would be all over it though.

In addition to the writing on the wall, it's not all that common for people to rape and torture their victims when robbery is the only motive. It's not a huge stretch for the victims' families or for SHTSPRAYER to conclude that something other than lust for money was involved, IMO.

I agree with everything you said as long as all the facts are laid out, but my problem was with the original thread.

Until you posted there were messages painted on the wall and mirror and the author was just speculating. And even now we're just stuck with pure speculation.

IMO the thread was started with preconceived thinking. Making a judgement not based on all the facts helps no one.

What we need to do is properly dispose of people that commit crimes like this. Murders/rape should only have one outcome. Justice to those that prey, no matter what race.

To me that means a walk to the gallows. Publicly displayed. Our children should be taught when you make the kinds of decisions murders make there are no second chances.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:47 PM
Thats clever.

I'm married to one.

Nah, you married to a nice Jewish girl.
Posted via Mobile Device

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 04:51 PM
Hey guys! I had a real live negro in my house for dinner, three weeks ago!
Posted via Mobile Device

:LOL:

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 04:56 PM
Changing peoples posts. God that's funny.
Posted via Mobile Device

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 05:11 PM
I still hang with the same people I have hung out my whole life. I have several "friends" in life but only a handful that are people I know would never betray me. As far as water under the bridge it is. Nobody has ever tried to make me feel like I did something wrong because I did nothing wrong I stood my ground. I raised my kids the same way, do not start trouble but stand your ground. Always defend the weak. I taught them how to defend themselves and not be victims.

ShitSprayer you seemed to have missed my reply. Only victims have unresolved issues. I was not a victim.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 05:13 PM
ShitSprayer you seemed to have missed my reply. Only victims have unresolved issues. I was not a victim.

Shitsprayer is a victim. He's a failure and its the fault of black people.
Posted via Mobile Device

Brock
08-30-2009, 05:14 PM
Why don't you two just fuck and get it over with.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 05:21 PM
Why don't you two just fuck and get it over with.
Oh dear, another cracker heard from?
Posted via Mobile Device

rockymtnchief
08-30-2009, 05:35 PM
Exactly, and we're just finding out about it now.

But ten years later and we're still hearing about some fayg who got strapped up to a fence in Montana by two losers he cruised in a gay bar.

Wyoming, not Montana.

Brock
08-30-2009, 05:36 PM
Oh dear, another cracker heard from?
Posted via Mobile Device

Who's watching your kids?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 05:38 PM
ShitSprayer you seemed to have missed my reply. Only victims have unresolved issues. I was not a victim.

I hear ya.

Peace.

penchief
08-30-2009, 05:39 PM
Shitsprayer,

Hate is a two-way street when it comes to race. There is a lot of bitterness and resentment that runs both ways. Your attitude is predictable (and maybe even understandable) for someone who is not willing to look beyond his own prejudice. But the problem is that you allow your prejudice to further perpetuate racial hatred and misunderstanding rather than seek a solution.

Sure, there are things you can point to and hold in contempt. But that holds true for any group. And what good does it do to spread hatred rather than seek pragmatic solutions? If you were wiser than you appear to be you would try to understand root cause and effect, environmental influence, and the chain of events that have led to our current state of affairs. Then you would try to address the social conditions that perpetuate the conduct you despise. You would also try to understand the triggers that unleash hatred and violence on both sides of the equation.

But your view is one-sided. If you knew anything at all, you would know that groups of whites committing acts of violence against blacks is a historical phenomenon. Slavery and the 100 years of social injustice that followed was systemic violence against blacks by whites. Where is your contempt for whites?

Regardless of that which you disaprove, it is counterproductive to treat others with contempt and deny them the understanding and fundamental human respect due all God's children. Your behavior only facilitates more hatred and mistrust. And it helps to sabotage the economic and social progress required to address the conditions that you cite as reasons for your prejudice.

JMO.

banyon
08-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Shitsprayer is a victim. He's a failure and its the fault of black people.
Posted via Mobile Device

and meth.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 06:04 PM
Ok. You get a medal for seeing a black person an hour ago.

You asked me a question, and I answered it. I wasn't waving it like a flag.

Generalizing about an entire race is still racist.

Right. Generally, Scandinavians have lighter skin than Hispanics. I guess that's a racist statement.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 06:08 PM
Do you tell your black "friends" they are not "societal eaqual" and its their fault and that america will never reach its potential because of them?

Talk about being full of shit.

I guess you don't understand what is meant by the qualifier "in general". These people are absolutely equal. They have taken accountability for their own well-being. As a result, they live in a nice neighborhood and have wonderful families. In the general population, this makes them above-average. Among other African-Americans, they are practically outliers.

patteeu
08-30-2009, 06:14 PM
I just find it interesting that it's been so long since you had a black person in your house. It leads me to believe that you live in a predominantly white neighborhood.

I just told you that I had a black friend over at my house about an hour ago, so the answer would be yes. I live in a nice neighborhood that happens to be pretty diverse. My next door neighbor is black. The family directly across the street is black/hispanic, and the neighbor who came over today and lives about 3 houses down is black. All of them are excellent people. We are all friends.

None of this changes the fact that black culture, in general, has a disproportionately large number of issues of their own making. They will never become societal equals until these issues are addressed. The US can not reach it's potential when an ethnic group that makes up 15% of its population is mired in such a large cultural mess.

They need to be called on it, but anybody who does so is immediately castigated, so I don't know if it's ever going to happen. I don't agree with SPRAYER'S methods, but there is usually a kernel of truth in his message. It could be argued that the person who denies the obvious does more harm than the SPRAYERS of the world who call them as they see them (in an admittedly undiplomatic and possibly racist manner).

Good post.

patteeu
08-30-2009, 06:21 PM
I agree with everything you said as long as all the facts are laid out, but my problem was with the original thread.

Until you posted there were messages painted on the wall and mirror and the author was just speculating. And even now we're just stuck with pure speculation.

IMO the thread was started with preconceived thinking. Making a judgement not based on all the facts helps no one.

What we need to do is properly dispose of people that commit crimes like this. Murders/rape should only have one outcome. Justice to those that prey, no matter what race.

To me that means a walk to the gallows. Publicly displayed. Our children should be taught when you make the kinds of decisions murders make there are no second chances.

I agree with your conclusions. I think the original thread (and it's somewhat speculative accusation of racism) are the unfortunate byproduct of the accusations of racism that have become commonplace in the aftermath of the last presidential election, mostly leveled by those on the left AFAICT. Unfortunately, our post-racial President hasn't been the healer that he was advertised as.

Pioli Zombie
08-30-2009, 06:22 PM
Who's watching your kids?

Who's watching yours?
Posted via Mobile Device

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 06:23 PM
Thats clever.

I'm married to one.

I hope you aren't in the military.

patteeu
08-30-2009, 06:25 PM
Shitsprayer,

Hate is a two-way street when it comes to race. There is a lot of bitterness and resentment that runs both ways. Your attitude is predictable (and maybe even understandable) for someone who is not willing to look beyond his own prejudice. But the problem is that you allow your prejudice to further perpetuate racial hatred and misunderstanding rather than seek a solution.

Sure, there are things you can point to and hold in contempt. But that holds true for any group. And what good does it do to spread hatred rather than seek pragmatic solutions? If you were wiser than you appear to be you would try to understand root cause and effect, environmental influence, and the chain of events that have led to our current state of affairs. Then you would try to address the social conditions that perpetuate the conduct you despise. You would also try to understand the triggers that unleash hatred and violence on both sides of the equation.

But your view is one-sided. If you knew anything at all, you would know that groups of whites committing acts of violence against blacks is a historical phenomenon. Slavery and the 100 years of social injustice that followed was systemic violence against blacks by whites. Where is your contempt for whites?

Regardless of that which you disaprove, it is counterproductive to treat others with contempt and deny them the understanding and fundamental human respect due all God's children. Your behavior only facilitates more hatred and mistrust. And it helps to sabotage the economic and social progress required to address the conditions that you cite as reasons for your prejudice.

JMO.

I don't know about all the root cause gobbledy-gook, but I'm surprised to agree with at least the bolded part of your post.

penchief
08-30-2009, 06:26 PM
I don't know about all the root cause gobbledy-gook, but I'm surprised to agree with at least the bolded part of your post.

Everything that evolves has roots. It is helpful to understand the roots of a problem when seeking a pragmatic solution.

I don't know why you'd be surprised. I'm certain there is a lot we agree on. It's just that more attention is always paid to disagreements in this forum.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 06:27 PM
Prosecutors believe that this murder was premeditated based on myspace pages of two of the defendants. Emrys John reportedly had a photo of the couple on his page shortly before their murder with the caption, “Chillin waitin 4 da killin.”


On his MySpace page, Lance Cpl. Tyrone Miller, 20, of North Carolina, referred to himself as a “Cripgeneral.” Investigators are now checking whether he had ties to the violent Crips street gang.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 06:31 PM
I don't know about all the root cause gobbledy-gook, but I'm surprised to agree with (Sure, there are things you can point to and hold in contempt. But that holds true for any group.)

That is true. The question is to what degree. I can point to any human being and say that they have certain traits that are less than desirable. That doesn't mean that my wife and Amy Winehouse are equal because my wife twists her hair sometimes.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 06:38 PM
First I'd like to say I'm a black man! I find this whole thing ridiculous. They are four f#cked up individuals to commit such an act. If I'm not mistaken black women were raped by massah during slavery and after when the clan rode freely with no threat of punishment. Wasn't it not to long that a black man was dragged to death behind a truck by 3 or 4 white guys in Texas? What about Emmit Till the black teenager from Chicago who went to visit family in the south and was killed for looking at a white woman. The four littel girls killed in the church bombing. If you want to add things up racially I'm pretty sure white people have a substantial lead in the violence catagory. It is all deplorable and if you can judge a whole race by the actions of a few that is the definition of a racist no if's and's but's or maybe's. In my life I had jobs where I had to deal with people of all races whose education was definitely lower than high school(white, black, hispanic, asian) that is not a race thing it's a people thing. I'm a teacher and I had a student one time that used to come into class, that had several black students, and freely used the N word. Did I let them beat the living crap out of him? Nope! I taught him to judge people by individually by the content of their character and at the same time taught the black students that words aren't worth fighting about. Once everyone does that this will be a better place. I'm here to get Chiefs news and information but, got side tracked with this. I'm out PEACE!

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 06:44 PM
First I'd like to say I'm a black man! I find this whole thing ridiculous.

Do you think that black culture in the US contributes significantly to the disparity between the overall success of blacks versus other races?

One of the strongest correlates of poverty is illegitimacy. The illegitimacy rate of African-Americans is off the charts. I don't know how you can blame whitey for that one.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 06:49 PM
If I'm not mistaken black women were raped by massah during slavery and after when the clan rode freely with no threat of punishment. What about Emmit Till the black teenager from Chicago who went to visit family in the south and was killed for looking at a white woman.

Can we narrow it down to maybe the last 50 years or so? I mean, we can get into the history of slavery if you want, but there is a lot more blood on the hands of Africans than is taught in school. It's a disgraceful chapter in our nation's history, but to act like your life is worse because of it than it would be if Africans had never sold other Africans into slavery is a mischaracterization of the facts.

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 06:50 PM
First I'd like to say I'm a black man! I find this whole thing ridiculous. They are four f#cked up individuals to commit such an act. If I'm not mistaken black women were raped by massah during slavery and after when the clan rode freely with no threat of punishment. Wasn't it not to long that a black man was dragged to death behind a truck by 3 or 4 white guys in Texas? What about Emmit Till the black teenager from Chicago who went to visit family in the south and was killed for looking at a white woman. The four littel girls killed in the church bombing. If you want to add things up racially I'm pretty sure white people have a substantial lead in the violence catagory. It is all deplorable and if you can judge a whole race by the actions of a few that is the definition of a racist no if's and's but's or maybe's. In my life I had jobs where I had to deal with people of all races whose education was definitely lower than high school(white, black, hispanic, asian) that is not a race thing it's a people thing. I'm a teacher and I had a student one time that used to come into class, that had several black students, and freely used the N word. Did I let them beat the living crap out of him? Nope! I taught him to judge people by individually by the content of their character and at the same time taught the black students that words aren't worth fighting about. Once everyone does that this will be a better place. I'm here to get Chiefs news and information but, got side tracked with this. I'm out PEACE!

Off subject but as a teacher I would think you would want your signature to read (too bad) instead of (to bad) :)

penchief
08-30-2009, 06:53 PM
Do you think that black culture in the US contributes significantly to the disparity between the overall success of blacks versus other races?

One of the strongest correlates of poverty is illegitimacy. The illegitimacy rate of African-Americans is off the charts. I don't know how you can blame whitey for that one.

Can you see a correlation between the economic status of the African-American race and hundreds of years of social inequity and economic injustice? I suspect that the conditions resulting from centuries of social and economic oppression have a much stronger residual impact than you are willing to acknowledge.

penchief
08-30-2009, 06:54 PM
Off subject but as a teacher I would think you would want your signature to read (too bad) instead of (to bad) :)

A mistake that many educated people on this forum have made, including teachers.

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 06:57 PM
A mistake that many educated people on this forum have made, including teachers.

That is why I added the :) and the reason I take so long to reply is that whole spell check thing :)

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:01 PM
Can you see a correlation between the economic status of the African-American race and hundreds of years of social inequity and economic injustice? I suspect that the conditions resulting from centuries of social and economic oppression have a much stronger residual impact than you are willing to acknowledge.

If you can make a convincing argument that blacks in Africa are better of than African-Americans, I will acknowledge that the root of their current plight is one of American history.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:01 PM
Shitsprayer,

Hate is a two-way street when it comes to race. There is a lot of bitterness and resentment that runs both ways. Your attitude is predictable (and maybe even understandable) for someone who is not willing to look beyond his own prejudice. But the problem is that you allow your prejudice to further perpetuate racial hatred and misunderstanding rather than seek a solution.

Sure, there are things you can point to and hold in contempt. But that holds true for any group. And what good does it do to spread hatred rather than seek pragmatic solutions? If you were wiser than you appear to be you would try to understand root cause and effect, environmental influence, and the chain of events that have led to our current state of affairs. Then you would try to address the social conditions that perpetuate the conduct you despise. You would also try to understand the triggers that unleash hatred and violence on both sides of the equation.

But your view is one-sided. If you knew anything at all, you would know that groups of whites committing acts of violence against blacks is a historical phenomenon. Slavery and the 100 years of social injustice that followed was systemic violence against blacks by whites. Where is your contempt for whites?

Regardless of that which you disaprove, it is counterproductive to treat others with contempt and deny them the understanding and fundamental human respect due all God's children. Your behavior only facilitates more hatred and mistrust. And it helps to sabotage the economic and social progress required to address the conditions that you cite as reasons for your prejudice.

JMO.

you made a reasonable post and I can respect that. Initially I typed out a long rebuttal but when I hit submit, it asked me to login and I lost everything.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:01 PM
Do you think that black culture in the US contributes significantly to the disparity between the overall success of blacks versus other races?

One of the strongest correlates of poverty is illegitimacy. The illegitimacy rate of African-Americans is off the charts. I don't know how you can blame whitey for that one.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I just pointed out facts if you can't handle that to bad. It is each individuals choice what they do with their life. I've never blamed the White man for keepin me back cause he can't do it.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:06 PM
Can we narrow it down to maybe the last 50 years or so? I mean, we can get into the history of slavery if you want, but there is a lot more blood on the hands of Africans than is taught in school. It's a disgraceful chapter in our nation's history, but to act like your life is worse because of it than it would be if Africans had never sold other Africans into slavery is a mischaracterization of the facts.

Oh yea Africans came to America captured White people and made them slaves LMAOLMAO I must have missed that in History class. So teach me.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:08 PM
Can we narrow it down to maybe the last 50 years or so? I mean, we can get into the history of slavery if you want, but there is a lot more blood on the hands of Africans than is taught in school. It's a disgraceful chapter in our nation's history, but to act like your life is worse because of it than it would be if Africans had never sold other Africans into slavery is a mischaracterization of the facts.

Does Jasper, Texas July of 98 ring a bell? http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/06/dragging.death.02/index.html

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:10 PM
I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I just pointed out facts if you can't handle that to bad. It is each individuals choice what they do with their life. I've never blamed the White man for keepin me back cause he can't do it.

Somebody must be to blame. Do you agree that illegitimacy is a plague on black America? I don't know how it can be blamed on whites, slavery, or global warming.

I'm not trying to throw stones. I just think that it needs to be put out in the open. I hear a lot coming from black America about what white people need to do differently. Some of it is true, but it rings hollow due to the fact that black America doesn't have it's own house in order.

penchief
08-30-2009, 07:13 PM
Can we narrow it down to maybe the last 50 years or so? I mean, we can get into the history of slavery if you want, but there is a lot more blood on the hands of Africans than is taught in school. It's a disgraceful chapter in our nation's history, but to act like your life is worse because of it than it would be if Africans had never sold other Africans into slavery is a mischaracterization of the facts.

I think you're overlooking what should be obvious. I was born approximately one hundred years after the end of slavery and before the victories achieved by the civil rights movement. That means that systemic oppression of African-Americans occurred in my lifetime.

Placed in its proper historical context, it is very short-sighted to think that the social and economic deficits facing the African-American race as the result of slavery and second-class citizenship should be overcome within such a short period of time. Especially considering that it would have had to have been accomplished within an environment of institutionalized racism.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:14 PM
Does Jasper, Texas July of 98 ring a bell? http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/06/dragging.death.02/index.html

Oh please. That was nothing more than prison violence carried out on the outside. They knew each other in prison and the white guy was raped by the blacks so he flipped out when he recognized the guy. You would too.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:14 PM
Somebody must be to blame. Do you agree that illegitimacy is a plague on black America? I don't know how it can be blamed on whites, slavery, or global warming.

I'm not trying to throw stones. I just think that it needs to be put out in the open. I hear a lot coming from black America about what white people need to do differently. Some of it is true, but it rings hollow due to the fact that black America doesn't have it's own house in order.

IMO I think that is old school Black America. The people who lived through blatent racisim and the violence. I'm new school! I teach young blacks, as well as other races, that it's not the White man that made you not go to school and learn or make bad choices it is a personal choice.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:15 PM
Oh yea Africans came to America captured White people and made them slaves LMAOLMAO I must have missed that in History class. So teach me.They didn't capture white people. They captured other black people and used them as slaves. Eventually, they expanded their business into selling them to Europeans. To a large degree, they traded them for weapons so that they could enslave even more Africans. Blacks weren't used as slaves because of racism. They were used as slaves because they were so easily obtainable.

From Wiki:

Slavery was practiced in Africa before the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade.[10] Slavery and the slave trade were an integral part of African societies and states which supplied the Arab world with enslaved people for centuries before the arrival of the Europeans.[11] The African slave trade provided a large number of slaves to Europeans and their African agents.[12][13]

The Atlantic slave trade is customarily divided into two eras, known as the First and Second Atlantic Systems.

The First Atlantic system was the trade of enslaved Africans to, primarily, South American colonies of the Portuguese and Spanish empires; it accounted for only slightly more than 3% of all Atlantic slave trade. It started (on a significant scale) in about 1502[14] and lasted until 1580, when Portugal was temporarily united with Spain. While the Portuguese traded enslaved people themselves, the Spanish empire relied on the asiento system, awarding merchants (mostly from other countries) the license to trade enslaved people to their colonies. During the first Atlantic system most of these traders were Portuguese, giving them a near-monopoly during the era, although some Dutch, English, Spanish and French traders also participated in the slave trade.[15] After the union, Portugal stayed formally autonomous, but was weakened, with its colonial empire being attacked by the Dutch and English.

The Second Atlantic system was the trade of enslaved Africans by mostly English, Brazilian, French and Dutch traders. The main destinations of this phase were the Caribbean colonies, Brazil and North America, as a number of European countries built up economically slave-dependent colonial empires in the New World. Amongst the pioneers of this system were Francis Drake and John Hawkins[citation needed].

Only slightly more than 3 percent of the enslaved people exported were traded between 1450 and 1600, 16% in the 17th century. More than half of them were exported in the 18th century, the remaining 28.5% in the 19th century.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:15 PM
Oh please. That was nothing more than prison violence carried out on the outside. They knew each other in prison and the white guy was raped by the blacks so he flipped out when he recognized the guy. You would too.

Link please?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:15 PM
Everything that evolves has roots.

Right. The KKK does, too. Wouldn't you agree?

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 07:16 PM
This is the most reprehensible thread I've ever seen on this board. Well, except for random Marlboro_Chief child porn threads or something.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:16 PM
They didn't capture white people. They captured other black people and used them as slaves. Eventually, they expanded their business into selling them to Europeans. To a large degree, they traded them for weapons so that they could enslave even more Africans. Blacks weren't used as slaves because of racism. They were used as slaves because they were so easily obtainable.

From Wiki:

Slavery was practiced in Africa before the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade.[10] Slavery and the slave trade were an integral part of African societies and states which supplied the Arab world with enslaved people for centuries before the arrival of the Europeans.[11] The African slave trade provided a large number of slaves to Europeans and their African agents.[12][13]

The Atlantic slave trade is customarily divided into two eras, known as the First and Second Atlantic Systems.

The First Atlantic system was the trade of enslaved Africans to, primarily, South American colonies of the Portuguese and Spanish empires; it accounted for only slightly more than 3% of all Atlantic slave trade. It started (on a significant scale) in about 1502[14] and lasted until 1580, when Portugal was temporarily united with Spain. While the Portuguese traded enslaved people themselves, the Spanish empire relied on the asiento system, awarding merchants (mostly from other countries) the license to trade enslaved people to their colonies. During the first Atlantic system most of these traders were Portuguese, giving them a near-monopoly during the era, although some Dutch, English, Spanish and French traders also participated in the slave trade.[15] After the union, Portugal stayed formally autonomous, but was weakened, with its colonial empire being attacked by the Dutch and English.

The Second Atlantic system was the trade of enslaved Africans by mostly English, Brazilian, French and Dutch traders. The main destinations of this phase were the Caribbean colonies, Brazil and North America, as a number of European countries built up economically slave-dependent colonial empires in the New World. Amongst the pioneers of this system were Francis Drake and John Hawkins[citation needed].

Only slightly more than 3 percent of the enslaved people exported were traded between 1450 and 1600, 16% in the 17th century. More than half of them were exported in the 18th century, the remaining 28.5% in the 19th century.

It doesn't say that the ones who were slaves were rival tribes they were at war with does it?

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:16 PM
IMO I think that is old school Black America. The people who lived through blatent racisim and the violence. I'm new school! I teach young blacks, as well as other races, that it's not the White man that made you not go to school and learn or make bad choices it is a personal choice.
From your lips to God's ears.

Not to push, but where does illegitimacy factor in?

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:17 PM
It doesn't say that the ones who were slaves were rival tribes they were at war with does it?

They absolutely were. Does that make it somehow better? American colonists were at war with the natives and originally used them as slaves. I don't think that anybody would excuse those actions.

I guess I'm missing the point.

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 07:22 PM
I think you're overlooking what should be obvious. I was born approximately han one hundred years after the end of slavery and before the victories achieved by the civil rights movement. That means that systemic oppression of African-Americans occurred in my lifetime.

Placed in its proper historical context, it is very short-sighted to think that the social and economic deficits facing the African-American race as the result of slavery and second-class citizenship should be overcome within such a short period of time. Especially considering that it would have had to have been accomplished within an environment of institutionalized racism.

Serious question why is someone born here called an African American? I find it rather strange and silly.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:23 PM
They absolutely were. Does that make it somehow better? American colonists were at war with the natives and originally used them as slaves. I don't think that anybody would excuse those actions.

I guess I'm missing the point.

They used them as slaves after Native Americans helped them survive. Was America at war with Africa when it started getting slaves? NO! They turned to black slaves because the Native Americans new the land escaped and couldn't be recaptured. To prevent that bring in Africans who don't know the land, speak the language, and stand out.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:24 PM
Serious question why is someone born here called an African American? I find it rather strange and silly.

I agree. I'm an American!

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:25 PM
Shitsprayer,

Hate is a two-way street when it comes to race. There is a lot of bitterness and resentment that runs both ways. Your attitude is predictable (and maybe even understandable) for someone who is not willing to look beyond his own prejudice. But the problem is that you allow your prejudice to further perpetuate racial hatred and misunderstanding rather than seek a solution.

JMO.

OK, I'm gonna respond to this piece by piece so here goes the short version:

As far as what you say here, all I can tell you is, I wasn't around when Bull Connor was. But I always felt like I was being punished or blamed for it, when I had nothing to do with it.


Sure, there are things you can point to and hold in contempt. But that holds true for any group.


But not "any" group accounts for half of all violent crime, has an 80% illigimacy rate and has a 50% illiteracy rate.

I'm sorry, I can't not have contempt for that.

And what good does it do to spread hatred rather than seek pragmatic solutions?

What pragmatic solutions? You blame everything on racism, instead of the crime, illigitimacy and illiteracy.


If you were wiser than you appear to be you would try to understand root cause and effect, environmental influence, and the chain of events that have led to our current state of affairs.

How far should we go? Adam and Eve?

Then you would try to address the social conditions that perpetuate the conduct you despise. You would also try to understand the triggers that unleash hatred and violence on both sides of the equation.

I can't stop them from having illitimate children. I can't stop teenagers from dropping out of school. I can't stop it because you liberals keep celebrating it and rewarding it.

But your view is one-sided. If you knew anything at all, you would know that groups of whites committing acts of violence against blacks is a historical phenomenon. Slavery and the 100 years of social injustice that followed was systemic violence against blacks by whites. Where is your contempt for whites?

Nobody white I know had anything to do with that. Most white people I know are 4th, 3rd even first generation Americans.

Regardless of that which you disaprove, it is counterproductive to treat others with contempt and deny them the understanding and fundamental human respect due all God's children.

I do not have to respect the 4 savages that murdererd their sgt. and his wife.

Your behavior only facilitates more hatred and mistrust. And it helps to sabotage the economic and social progress required to address the conditions that you cite as reasons for your prejudice.

Penchief, I'm gonna tell you this---

I know philipino's, Nigerians, Poles, Brazilians, Columbians, Vietnamese et al who have come here not even speaking English, yet ten twenty years later they have jobs, houses, educations and their kids are fully assimilated.

Why penchief, why can they do it but american blacks can't?

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:30 PM
After this I'm done with this nonsense. You can't change a racisit. Here is some information from 2004(within the last 50 years)
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/index.html
Scroll down to table 2.32 and see just how many white hate crimes there were compared to black!

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 07:32 PM
I agree. I'm an American!

And proudly so am I :)

penchief
08-30-2009, 07:33 PM
If you can make a convincing argument that blacks in Africa are better of than African-Americans, I will acknowledge that the root of their current plight is one of American history.

Much of what we now see in Africa is the result of a couple of factors. One is poverty. Something that many third world countries are afflicted by. White and black. The other is imperialism. Who knows how the tribes of Africa would have evolved had Europe not sought to divvy that continent up for the purpose of pillaging the land and enslaving its people. To this day, commercial interests are still competing with human dignity in Africa.

How do you feel about all the other contries and races in the world that suffer the same symptoms as Africa? What about the poverty, corruption, violence, and genocide in other parts of the world? In Central and South America? In Asia? Indonesia? Eastern and Southern Europe? The Middle East? Are all of the races in those lands inferior, too?

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:34 PM
They used them as slaves after Native Americans helped them survive. Was America at war with Africa when it started getting slaves? NO! They turned to black slaves because the Native Americans new the land escaped and couldn't be recaptured. To prevent that bring in Africans who don't know the land, speak the language, and stand out.

This is all true, but I don't see how it would make it somehow better if they were at war. Does the fact that the African slave merchants obtained their slaves from rival tribes somehow justify what they did or make the Europeans more responsible?

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:34 PM
After this I'm done with this nonsense. You can't change a racisit. Here is some information from 2004(within the last 50 years)
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/index.html
Scroll down to table 2.32 and see just how many white hate crimes there were compared to black!

That's the point of the thread, I thought. Whites get charged with hate crimes. Blacks don't.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:35 PM
And proudly so am I :)

Did my time in the Marines ready to fight and die for my Country!

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:35 PM
After this I'm done with this nonsense. You can't change a racisit. Here is some information from 2004(within the last 50 years)
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/index.html
Scroll down to table 2.32 and see just how many white hate crimes there were compared to black!

ROFL

NO SHIT SHERLOCK BECAUSE ONLY WHITE PEOPLE ARE CHARGED WITH "HATE CRIMES".

You can't change stupid.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:36 PM
That's the point of the thread, I thought. Whites get charged with hate crimes. Blacks don't.

That table doesn't say that. It shows what has been reported. Don't Assume cause you know what happens when you assume. In this case there would only be one Ass!

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:37 PM
Much of what we now see in Africa is the result of a couple of factors. One is poverty. Something that many third world countries are afflicted by. White and black. The other is imperialism.

Another BS narrative from the left.

The other is MARXISM. Africans embraced communism after the Brit's and French left.

dtrain
08-30-2009, 07:37 PM
ROFL

NO SHIT SHERLOCK BECAUSE ONLY WHITE PEOPLE ARE CHARGED WITH "HATE CRIMES".

You can't change stupid.

That's like you saying that Black people blame their problem on the White man.

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:38 PM
Jews are hands down the most hated and villified and persecuted group of people in world history, yet---

Every where they go, they thrive. Why?

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:38 PM
That table doesn't say that. It shows what has been reported. Don't Assume cause you know what happens when you assume. In this case there would only be one Ass!

Dude, you're just not very bright.

RedNeckRaider
08-30-2009, 07:40 PM
Did my time in the Marines ready to fight and die for my Country!

Thank you for your service

***SPRAYER
08-30-2009, 07:41 PM
Here is facts:

Liberals have attacked the family as a social unit, and the group most adversely affected by this, has been blacks.

But liberals can't say "well, we were wrong, the family is an important and valuable unit in our social order" so instead they blame all that ails black america is racism.

That's it. Good night.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:43 PM
Much of what we now see in Africa is the result of a couple of factors. One is poverty. Something that many third world countries are afflicted by. White and black.

Could you name a few of those white third-world countries so that I can see if this checks out?


The other is imperialism. Who knows how the tribes of Africa would have evolved had Europe not sought to divvy that continent up for the purpose of pillaging the land and enslaving its people. Wasn't Africa an amalgam of warring tribes prior to the arrival of the Europeans?


How do you feel about all the other contries and races in the world that suffer the same symptoms as Africa? What about the poverty, corruption, violence, and genocide in other parts of the world? In Central and South America? In Asia? Indonesia? Eastern and Southern Europe? The Middle East? Are all of the races in those lands inferior, too?

I don't really care to address that here, as that has nothing to do with the current state of blacks in the United States.

You can throw as many excuses out there as you want. The bottom line is that illegitimacy plays a larger role in the plight of African-Americans than slavery and segregation ever did. Unless you can somehow attribute this to whites, I think that this is just excuse making and actually does more harm than good.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 07:47 PM
Jews are hands down the most hated and villified and persecuted group of people in world history, yet---

Every where they go, they thrive. Why?

The rate of illegitimate births is lower among the Jews than almost any other sect or nation. This is evident from the following table, giving the percentage of illegitimate births to total births at the places cited:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table.jsp?table_id=59&volid=3&title=BIRTHS.

googlegoogle
08-30-2009, 07:47 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post Can we narrow it down to maybe the last 50 years or so? I mean, we can get into the history of slavery if you want, but there is a lot more blood on the hands of Africans than is taught in school. It's a disgraceful chapter in our nation's history, but to act like your life is worse because of it than it would be if Africans had never sold other Africans into slavery is a mischaracterization of the facts. Oh yea Africans came to America captured White people and made them slaves LMAOLMAO I must have missed that in History class. So teach me. Everything Saul said is true. Black people profited from the slave trade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_slave_trade The slaves came from many different sources. About half came from the societies that sold them. These might be criminals, heretics, the mentally ill, the indebted and any others that had fallen out of favour with the rulers. Little is known about the details of theses practices before the arrival of Europeans, and so it is difficult to tell if the number of people considered as undesirables was artificially increased to provide more slaves for export. It is believed that capital punishment in the region nearly disappeared since prisoners became far too valuable to dispose of in such a way.[63] Another source of slaves, comprising about half the total, came from military conquests of other states or tribes. It has long been contended that the slave trade greatly increased violence and warfare in the region due to the pursuit of slaves, endemic warfare was certainly common even before slave hunting had added such an extra inducement.[63] For the Atlantic slave trade, captives purchased from slave dealers in West African regions known as the Slave Coast, Gold Coast, and Côte d'Ivoire were sold into slavery as a result of a defeat in warfare. In the Bight of Biafra near modern-day Senegal and Benin, some African kings sold their captives locally and later to European slave traders for goods such as metal cookware, rum, livestock, and seed grain. Previous to the voyage, the victims were held in "slave castles" and deep pits where many died from multiple illnesses and malnutrition. Conditions were even worse in the Middle Passage across the Atlantic where up to a third of the slaves died en route.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 07:54 PM
You what's stupid? Calling children born out of the religious institution of marriage "illegitimate."

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 08:15 PM
You what's stupid? Calling children born out of the religious institution of marriage "illegitimate."

Fair enough. I'm not here to argue semantics. Obviously you're here to change the subject.

Call it what you like, but when an entire ethnic group has nearly 80% of its children born to single mothers, I don't really want to hear about things that happened before the invention of the internal combustion engine.

penchief
08-30-2009, 08:25 PM
OK, I'm gonna respond to this piece by piece so here goes the short version:

As far as what you say here, all I can tell you is, I wasn't around when Bull Connor was. But I always felt like I was being punished or blamed for it, when I had nothing to do with it.

Which is why you should try to understand how something so recent can have such a profound impact on the black-white dynamic in this country. Just because you refuse to acknowledge something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


But not "any" group accounts for half of all violent crime, has an 80% illigimacy rate and has a 50% illiteracy rate.

I'm sorry, I can't not have contempt for that.

Directly correlated to economic conditions. Which are directly correleated to institutionalized inequities of the recent past. Most of these problems are concentrated in urban areas that are poverty stricken.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and make excuses for the individual who won't do for his or herself. I am, and always have been, an advocate for personal responsibility. But having said that, I'm not going to ignore the inequities that have made the situation much more complicated than you are willing to acknowledge.

While there are many people in the African-American community who are trying to change the culture, it is impossible to deny the drag that the institutionalized oppression of blacks has had on that progress. The symptoms of poverty perpetuate themselves and it takes more than just willpower to overcome. It takes equal access and equal opportunity. Things that are reletively new to the equation (only a couple of generations old). Whether you are willing to see it or not, progress is being made.

Having said that, it is a societal problem and not one that belongs only to African-Americans.

What pragmatic solutions? You blame everything on racism, instead of the crime, illigitimacy and illiteracy.

I'm not blaming it all on racism. But it is silly to deny that the historical chain of events (and how we, as a nation, have manged those events) is directly related to the problem. To deny that is to not care to understand the root causes of a problem.

Crime is not an end in itself, nor is illigitimacy, or illiteracy. They are not goals. They are symptoms.

How far should we go? Adam and Eve?

We should understand the history of how race relations in this country have evolved. We should understand how the economic and social inequities designed to suppress African-American empowerment have had a residual effect on today's social structure.

Understanding can only lead to cooperation. Cooperation leads to progress.

I can't stop them from having illitimate children. I can't stop teenagers from dropping out of school. I can't stop it because you liberals keep celebrating it and rewarding it.

I don't want to reward irresponsible behavior any more than you do. But I think there is a way to attack it that is smarter than just letting the symptoms continue to fester. That only perpetuates the problem. As I said, it is not just an African-American problem.

Nobody white I know had anything to do with that. Most white people I know are 4th, 3rd even first generation Americans.

Just because you want to ignore the impact that it has on the current dynamic doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It has a very real impact on attitudes on both sides of the equation. To turn a blind eye to its impact is just willful ignorance, IMO.


I do not have to respect the 4 savages that murdererd their sgt. and his wife.

Neither do I. But I'm not the one trying to prove a point by exploiting the dispicable acts of four individuals who do not represent an entire race.

Penchief, I'm gonna tell you this---

I know philipino's, Nigerians, Poles, Brazilians, Columbians, Vietnamese et al who have come here not even speaking English, yet ten twenty years later they have jobs, houses, educations and their kids are fully assimilated.

Why penchief, why can they do it but american blacks can't?

You are correct to point out the example of immagrants pulling themselves up by the bootstraps. That is what this country offers. And I would hold that up as an example for anyone, black or white. That said, while some of the variables are comparable, many are not. There is a lot of baggage that both black and white carry in this country that make overcoming all those variables a sometimes different task.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 08:28 PM
In This Thread: penchief is correct a lot.

penchief
08-30-2009, 08:33 PM
Could you name a few of those white third-world countries so that I can see if this checks out?

Check out Romania. Orphans. Aids children. Child exploitation.


Wasn't Africa an amalgam of warring tribes prior to the arrival of the Europeans?

Not unlike every other region of the world. North America. South America. Europe. Asia.

I don't really care to address that here, as that has nothing to do with the current state of blacks in the United States.

You can throw as many excuses out there as you want. The bottom line is that illegitimacy plays a larger role in the plight of African-Americans than slavery and segregation ever did. Unless you can somehow attribute this to whites, I think that this is just excuse making and actually does more harm than good.

I'm not justifying illigetimacy. But I have to tell you that I don't think that it is something that is a race thing as much as it is a societal thing. I deal with a lot of people who have children out of wedlock. Most of them white. Many of them two and three children from different fathers. In fact, it is much more common than you are letting on. Young people today are having children and not getting married. It's just a fact of life. To try to use that to condemn an entire race is wrong, IMO.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 08:39 PM
Which is why you should try to understand how something so recent can have such a profound impact on the black-white dynamic in this country. Just because you refuse to acknowledge something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.




Directly correlated to economic conditions. Which are directly correleated to institutionalized inequities of the recent past. Most of these problems are concentrated in urban areas that are poverty stricken.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and make excuses for the individual who won't do for his or herself. I am, and always have been, an advocate for personal responsibility. But having said that, I'm not going to ignore the inequities that have made the situation much more complicated than you are willing to acknowledge.

While there are many people in the African-American community who are trying to change the culture, it is impossible to deny the drag that the institutionalized oppression of blacks has had on that progress. The symptoms of poverty perpetuate themselves and it takes more than just willpower to overcome. It takes equal access and equal opportunity. Things that are reletively new to the equation (only a couple of generations old). Whether you are willing to see it or not, progress is being made.

Having said that, it is a societal problem and not one that belongs only to African-Americans.



I'm not blaming it all on racism. But it is silly to deny that the historical chain of events (and how we, as a nation, have manged those events) is directly related to the problem. To deny that is to not care to understand the root causes of a problem.

Crime is not an end in itself, nor is illigitimacy, or illiteracy. They are not goals. They are symptoms.



We should understand the history of how race relations in this country have evolved. We should understand how the economic and social inequities designed to suppress African-American empowerment have had a residual effect on today's social structure.

Understanding can only lead to cooperation. Cooperation leads to progress.



I don't want to reward irresponsible behavior any more than you do. But I think there is a way to attack it that is smarter than just letting the symptoms continue to fester. That only perpetuates the problem. As I said, it is not just an African-American problem.



Just because you want to ignore the impact that it has on the current dynamic doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It has a very real impact on attitudes on both sides of the equation. To turn a blind eye to its impact is just willful ignorance, IMO.




Neither do I. But I'm not the one trying to prove a point by exploiting the dispicable acts of four individuals who do not represent an entire race.



You are correct to point out the example of immagrants pulling themselves up by the bootstraps. That is what this country offers. And I would hold that up as an example for anyone, black or white. That said, while some of the variables are comparable, many are not. There is a lot of baggage that both black and white carry in this country that make overcoming all those variables a sometimes different task.

Well, congratulations. You have managed to make an excuse for everything. I'm glad we can have honest discussions like this. It's good to know that the deck is just too stacked against blacks and that they, as a culture, should not be expected to be in a better position than they currently are.

Never mind the fact our current president is half black but was raised in a white culture, is married, and has raised his children in a traditional, nuclear family. Is that just a lucky coincidence?

I have known enough black people to know that they should be held to the same standards as whites. They aren't stupid. They aren't inferior. They shouldn't have excuses made for them in the same manner that we would excuse a child with Down Syndrome. To constantly make excuses for them is demeaning and an example of latent racism.

If you truly believe that they are inferior, then I can understand why you would be willing to make so many excuses. Basically, they can't help it. If you don't, then you should call a spade a spade. I think that the nearly 150 years since the emancipation proclamation should be enough of a buffer.

As SPRAYER said earlier, if you want to identify an ethnic group that could point to history for an excuse to fail, look at the Jews. I don't see them crowding the prisons.

penchief
08-30-2009, 08:40 PM
Right. The KKK does, too. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes. Understanding the hatred that motivates the KKK is essential to the task of disarming that hatred.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 08:45 PM
Check out Romania. Orphans. Aids children. Child exploitation.


Are you really trying to equate Romania with Somalia?

I'm not justifying illigetimacy. But I have to tell you that I don't think that it is something that is a race thing as much as it is a societal thing. I deal with a lot of people who have children out of wedlock. Most of them white. Many of them two and three children from different fathers. In fact, it is much more common than you are letting on. Young people today are having children and not getting married. It's just a fact of life. To try to use that to condemn an entire race is wrong, IMO.And how are those white families having children out of wedlock doing? How about the Hispanic ones? I'm guessing that they aren't doing so hot on average. This is my point. It's not a race thing, it's a cultural thing. Blacks are having children out of wedlock at rates vastly in excess of the general population.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 08:45 PM
Well, congratulations. You have managed to make an excuse for everything. I'm glad we can have honest discussions like this. It's good to know that the deck is just too stacked against blacks and that they, as a culture, should not be expected to be in a better position than they currently are.

Never mind the fact our current president is half black but was raised in a white culture, is married, and has raised his children in a traditional, nuclear family. Is that just a lucky coincidence?

I have known enough black people to know that they should be held to the same standards as whites. They aren't stupid. They aren't inferior. They shouldn't have excuses made for them in the same manner that we would excuse a child with Down Syndrome. To constantly make excuses for them is demeaning and an example of latent racism.

If you truly believe that they are inferior, then I can understand why you would be willing to make so many excuses. Basically, they can't help it. If you don't, then you should call a spade a spade. I think that the nearly 150 years since the emancipation proclamation should be enough of a buffer.

As SPRAYER said earlier, if you want to identify an ethnic group that could point to history for an excuse to fail, look at the Jews. I don't see them crowding the prisons.
Its not race. Its class.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 08:46 PM
Its not race. Its class.

It's neither. It's culture.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 08:49 PM
It's neither. It's culture.
A culture of poverty, sure.

stevieray
08-30-2009, 08:51 PM
It's abortion.

it's the built in excuse for men to thrust the responsibilty to the women.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 08:54 PM
It's abortion.

it's the built in excuse for men to thrust the responsibilty to the women.
That argument is an abortion.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 08:56 PM
A culture of poverty, sure.

So you are saying that poverty causes babies to be born out of wedlock rather than the other way around. That's a pretty stupid and bigoted argument. Poor people have values, too.

penchief
08-30-2009, 08:57 PM
Well, congratulations. You have managed to make an excuse for everything. I'm glad we can have honest discussions like this. It's good to know that the deck is just too stacked against blacks and that they, as a culture, should not be expected to be in a better position than they currently are.

Never mind the fact our current president is half black but was raised in a white culture, is married, and has raised his children in a traditional, nuclear family. Is that just a lucky coincidence?

I have known enough black people to know that they should be held to the same standards as whites. They aren't stupid. They aren't inferior. They shouldn't have excuses made for them in the same manner that we would excuse a child with Down Syndrome. To constantly make excuses for them is demeaning and an example of latent racism.

If you truly believe that they are inferior, then I can understand why you would be willing to make so many excuses. Basically, they can't help it. If you don't, then you should call a spade a spade. I think that the nearly 150 years since the emancipation proclamation should be enough of a buffer.

As SPRAYER said earlier, if you want to identify an ethnic group that could point to history for an excuse to fail, look at the Jews. I don't see them crowding the prisons.

You are twisting something that should be self-evident into something that serves as a deflection for you. The fact that the obvious inequities resulting from slavery and social/economic injustice cannot be cured in forty years is a simple concept. The fact that it is a concept beyond your grasp speaks for itself.

It has nothing to do with my making excuses. In fact, if you had read my posts carefully you would have seen that I was not making excuses. On more than one occasion I stated that I am an advocate of personal responsibility and do not condone irresponsible behavior. My point is that you cannot treat a symptom as if it were the disease.

You need to understand that acknowledging the reality of a situation is not the same thing as making excuses. It is what it is. The whole situation has been ****ed up by greed and politics. We all share responsibility for the racial inequities of our society. All I'm saying is that we need to recognize exactly what it is and move forward in search of pragmatic solutions while resisting the temptation to demonize each other.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 08:59 PM
So you are saying that poverty causes babies to be born out of wedlock rather than the other way around. That's a pretty stupid and bigoted argument. Poor people have values, too.
I don't think that wedlock has shit to do with anything. Is there a huge problem in the black community with absent fathers? Absolutely there is. The same problem can be found in any community that has jack shit going for it economically.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 09:00 PM
That argument is an abortion.

Maybe so, but you don't see abortion clinics in suburbia. If blond-haired, blue-eyed babies were getting thrown into medical waste bins at the level that brown babies are, abortion would be outlawed in about two seconds.

Liberals treat minorities like they treat their pets. They care about them and want to care for them, but they don't see them as equals.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 09:01 PM
You are twisting something that should be self-evident into something that serves as a deflection for you. The fact that the obvious inequities resulting from slavery and social/economic injustice cannot be cured in forty years is a simple concept. The fact that it is a concept beyond your grasp speaks for itself.

It has nothing to do with my making excuses. In fact, if you had read my posts carefully you would have seen that I was not making excuses. On more than one occasion I stated that I am an advocate of personal responsibility and do not condone irresponsible behavior. My point is that you cannot treat a symptom as if it were the disease.

You need to understand that acknowledging the reality of a situation is not the same thing as making excuses. It is what it is. The whole situation has been ****ed up by greed and politics. We all share responsibility for the racial inequities of our society. All I'm saying is that we need to recognize exactly what it is and move forward in search of pragmatic solutions while resisting the temptation to demonize each other.

Why were Jews able to do in 30 years what blacks haven't been able to do in 150?

stevieray
08-30-2009, 09:04 PM
[QUOTE=Reaper16;6016903. The same problem can be found in any community that has jack shit going for it economically.[/QUOTE]

BS.

Mexicans are extremely family oriented.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 09:04 PM
I don't think that wedlock has shit to do with anything. Is there a huge problem in the black community with absent fathers? Absolutely there is. The same problem can be found in any community that has jack shit going for it economically.

You're right, but you are transposing the cause and the effect. If you solve the illegitimacy, the poverty will take care of itself.

I know some white girls who are single mothers. They were brought up middle class, but they are poor now. Poverty has been the effect, not the cause.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 09:05 PM
Maybe so, but you don't see abortion clinics in suburbia. If blond-haired, blue-eyed babies were getting thrown into medical waste bins at the level that brown babies are, abortion would be outlawed in about two seconds.

Liberals treat minorities like they treat their pets. They care about them and want to care for them, but they don't see them as equals.
One of the reasons that there are less abortions is suburbia because suburban families can afford to raise children. I really don't think throwing a religious morality into the fray is going to advance anything. That's just me though.

As for the second paragraph: "Conservatives are all racists who want Jesus to write the laws." See how easy it is to say something stupid and incorrect?

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 09:07 PM
One of the reasons that there are less abortions is suburbia because suburban families can afford to raise children. I really don't think throwing a religious morality into the fray is going to advance anything. That's just me though.

As for the second paragraph: "Conservatives are all racists who want Jesus to write the laws." See how easy it is to say something stupid and incorrect?

Why were Jews able to do in 30 years what blacks haven't been able to do in 150?

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 09:07 PM
BS.

Mexicans are extremely family oriented.
I was speaking more on the lines of individual communities -- towns or specific neighborhoods of cities, etc. There are a decent amount of abortions in poor white communities, too.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 09:08 PM
I was speaking more on the lines of individual communities -- towns or specific neighborhoods of cities, etc. There are a decent amount of abortions in poor white communities, too.

Why were Jews able to do in 30 years what blacks haven't been able to do in 150?

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 09:11 PM
You're right, but you are transposing the cause and the effect. If you solve the illegitimacy, the poverty will take care of itself.

I know some white girls who are single mothers. They were brought up middle class, but they are poor now. Poverty has been the effect, not the cause.
You honestly believe that, don't you? You think that blacks are being held back primarily because of kids being born out of wedlock... Holy shit.

It can't be an economy that's left them behind, it can't be an educational system that doesn't prepare students to adapt, it can't be the drug-fueled crime that has a vicegrip on the inner cities. No, those problems exist because people aren't getting married before having a kid.

...

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 09:11 PM
You honestly believe that, don't you? You think that blacks are being held back primarily because of kids being born out of wedlock... Holy shit.

It can't be an economy that's left them behind, it can't be an educational system that doesn't prepare students to adapt, it can't be the drug-fueled crime that has a vicegrip on the inner cities. No, those problems exist because people aren't getting married before having a kid.

...

Why were Jews able to do in 30 years what blacks haven't been able to do in 150?

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 09:12 PM
Why were Jews able to do in 30 years what blacks haven't been able to do in 150?
Can you extrapolate that for me; I must be too dumb to figure out what you're talking about.

Saul Good
08-30-2009, 09:15 PM
Can you extrapolate that for me; I must be too dumb to figure out what you're talking about.

Are we really going to play this game? Would you like me to start thousands of years ago, or should I fast-forward to the holocaust? As bad as slavery was, it's hard to say that the holocaust wasn't just as bad. Why have the Jews flourished despite thousands of years of persecution?

pikesome
08-30-2009, 09:18 PM
Are we really going to play this game? Would you like me to start thousands of years ago, or should I fast-forward to the holocaust? As bad as slavery was, it's hard to say that the holocaust wasn't just as bad. Why have the Jews flourished despite thousands of years of persecution?

Or the Irish, the Scots, the Armenians, the Vietnamese, the Laotians. Lots of groups in this country could give our black population a run for the title of "Most Shit Upon".

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 09:19 PM
Are we really going to play this game? Would you like me to start thousands of years ago, or should I fast-forward to the holocaust? As bad as slavery was, it's hard to say that the holocaust wasn't just as bad. Why have the Jews flourished despite thousands of years of persecution?
... are we talking about Jews in America? I actually want to try and answer this honestly, but I don't get the comparison.

penchief
08-30-2009, 09:19 PM
So you are saying that poverty causes babies to be born out of wedlock rather than the other way around. That's a pretty stupid and bigoted argument. Poor people have values, too.

I do think that the entire culture of poverty leads to a lot of things. One of which is young people in highly concentrated population areas having unprotected sex without any concept of what the consequences will be.

If a child is born out of wedlock to a wealthy white woman, is that baby going to turn out to be a criminal or living in poverty? probably not. I would argue that the baby's social status will shield it from that kind of life. On the other hand, it is far more likely that a child born out of wedlock into an environment of poverty and crime is more vulnerable.

I agree that poor people have values too. However, often times the circumstances of poverty will change one's perspective. A mother who steals food to feed her hungry children may see more virtue in feeding her children than in letting them go hungry.

While I agree that the culture has to change, I believe the fact that there are more children born out of wedlock in poor urban areas has more to do with social conditions than it does being black. Unless you are suggesting that there is an irresponsibility gene in the African-American DNA.

penchief
08-30-2009, 09:21 PM
Or the Irish, the Scots, the Armenians, the Vietnamese, the Laotians. Lots of groups in this country could give our black population a run for the title of "Most Shit Upon".

The oppression of African-Americans in this country was institutionalized and systemic not more than four decades ago. Much progress has been made since then but to say that is no different than just being an outsider is a missing the point by a lot, IMO.

Sully
08-30-2009, 09:30 PM
Or the Irish, the Scots, the Armenians, the Vietnamese, the Laotians. Lots of groups in this country could give our black population a run for the title of "Most Shit Upon".

I don't want to delve too far into this topic, but let's keep in mind that those groups didn't have generation after generation of families (and fathers) ripped apart and sold seperately like car parts in a salvage yard. Has it been a long time since slavery? Yes. Should individual people take responsibility for their own actions? Without question.
But when the baseline for family legitimacy in this country was what it was, it isn't hard to connect the dots why fatherhood isn't as celebrated among one sect of society than others. It's not an excuse. Wrong is wrong. But pretending there are no causes is short sighted and does no good toward seeing the roots of the problem.

If you were to look at divorce rates among folks who had parents who were divorced, you wouldn't be suprised to see a much higher percentage, I assume. So why is anyone suprised at this particular generational issue. And why is drawing the clear line of logic to it's root seen as "making excuses?"

stevieray
08-30-2009, 09:31 PM
The oppression of African-Americans in this country was institutionalized and systemic not more than four decades ago. Much progress has been made since then but to say that is no different than just being an outsider is a missing the point by a lot, IMO.

that's why the man who institutional in ending segregation was head of the Harvard Law review in 1922. the numbers don't lie. blacks had high employemnt and grad numbers until the last forty years...

irresponsibilty gene? hardly. I agree with saul, the latent racism is what keeps it alive.

the responsiblity for all children lies with the man...it's his seed.

penchief
08-30-2009, 09:32 PM
Why were Jews able to do in 30 years what blacks haven't been able to do in 150?

Would the Jews have been able to do that in Germany if Hitler had stopped at oppression or slavery instead of extermination? And ruled Germany until he died? You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. The government of this country never institutinalized slavery against the Jews. Nor did they try to deny Jewish citiziens the right to full citizenship or the right to vote. Or equal access to education and jobs. All of which retarded the economic prosperity of the black race as a whole.

Other than our attempt to exterminate the native American, I don't ever recall our country systematically doing that to any other race. Do you?

Again, the point is not that progress hasn't been made. The point is that ignoring the lingering effects of those "policies" does a disservice to both how far we have come in such a short period of time and how far we still have to go.

penchief
08-30-2009, 09:37 PM
that's why the man who institutional in ending segregation was head of the Harvard Law review in 1922. the numbers don't lie. blacks had high employemnt and grad numbers until the last forty years...

irresponsibilty gene? hardly. I agree with saul, the latent racism is what keeps it alive.

the responsiblity for all children lies with the man...it's his seed.

I agree but until that sense of responsibility is instilled in all fathers it will be a societal problem. And it will always be a more pronounced problem in highly populated urban areas with higher poverty rates and lower education levels. That is just a fact of life. It's got nothing to do with being black.

stevieray
08-30-2009, 09:46 PM
I agree but until that sense of responsibility is instilled in all fathers it will be a societal problem. And it will always be a more pronounced problem in highly populated urban areas with higher poverty rates and lower education levels. That is just a fact of life. It's got nothing to do with being black.

again it has to do with abortion...blacks faced those obstacles yet were present in their childrens lives, the church and family got them through..I'd bet when you were growing up, you knew of large blacks families, like the Italians, etc...at least I did.

circumstance is not an excuse for poor behavior and choices...if anything it calls for courage and strength to do what's right in the face of adversity.

Reaper16
08-30-2009, 09:49 PM
I wish for once that there was a political issue in this country where you couldn't just split the sides by religious and not-religious.

penchief
08-30-2009, 09:55 PM
again it has to do with abortion...blacks faced those obstacles yet were present in their childrens lives, the church and family got them through..I'd bet when you were growing up, you knew of large blacks families, like the Italians, etc...at least I did.

circumstance is not an excuse for poor behavior and choices...if anything it calls for courage and strength to do what's right in the face of adversity.

The statistics have nothing to do with race or religion. The statistics have more to do with social conditions than any other factor.

WilliamTheIrish
08-30-2009, 10:01 PM
YOu're more diplomatic than me, that's the only difference. We've both been traumatized by shit we didn't cause.

...been traumatized by shit we didn't cause.
I never did nothing to them. Nothing.


LMAO

KILLER_CLOWN
08-30-2009, 10:08 PM
I wish for once that there was a political issue in this country where you couldn't just split the sides by religious and not-religious.

You telling me i haven't broken the mold?

J Diddy
08-31-2009, 02:40 AM
You know it is humorous. I didn't even open the link. I told myself after you posted this it was 4 black guys and the guy was a white guy. You didn't disappoint david duke.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 04:40 AM
Which is why you should try to understand how something so recent can have such a profound impact on the black-white dynamic in this country. Just because you refuse to acknowledge something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Fair enough. I understand it. What would you like me to do about it? How long are white people supposed to marinate in guilt over crap they had nothing to do with? How many lectures am I supposed to sit through and pretend their is any integrity to any of this this?

You know, I read through the rest of this thread, and I see a constant narrative from you and the usual suspects on the left---

"The root causes".

You seem to have this crazy idea that if only we would all understand "the root causes" that black teenage girls will stop taking off their clothes and having sex with men/boys they are not married too, and then having bastards that the rest of society has to support and live in fear of.

Let me tell you something about history---

The riots in the 60's all happened after MLK got what he wanted, A Voting Rights Act and a Civil Rights Act. That's everything he wanted and BY AND LARGE the American population wanted it BECAUSE IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Maybe Jews like to take too much credit for helping MLK, but the fact is they gave his movement alot of money.

So you think this story would have a happy ending, right? Wrong. The blacks burned down Newark and Detroit. Detroit in the 60's was a beautiful city with a very high black middle class. And they destroyed it.

In Newark, Jewish businesses were burned down; a synogue was burned and ransacked. The shell of it still remains on Broad Street in downtown Newark.

Then you had blacks take over Yale.

And white people started to get very resentful of this behavior. You also had shady real estate agents in the late 60's and early 70's who engaged in block busting. Then you had the federal govt build projects in once nice cities and imported welfare blacks from the south, who completely destroyed the city public school system.

So please, don't insult me with crap that happened in Antebellum South. There is alot of history in our lifetime. And when it's all said and done with all the blather about root causes, when blacks are held accountable for their behavior, when society expects them to be able to read and write before handing them a college degree (dexter manley), when out of birth wedlock is shamed and not celebrated by liberal wackos---

Then maybe we can start to make some progress.

Progress. There's a word we are all familiar with.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 04:49 AM
the responsiblity for all children lies with the man...it's his seed.

It's really that simple.

But lib's can't let go of their BS narrative that a father isn't necassary and that gender roles are nurture, not nature.

They will hold onto that as they continue to destroy our culture. White illigitimacy is over 20%, thanks to a constant barrage of left wing propaganda over the last fifty years, but it's blacks who are the bullet catchers on the front lines of the culture war.

The lib's just keep telling them it's racism and blather on about root causes.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 04:56 AM
You what's stupid? Calling children born out of the religious institution of marriage "illegitimate."

Fair enough. Let's call them bastards.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 04:59 AM
You honestly believe that, don't you? You think that blacks are being held back primarily because of kids being born out of wedlock... Holy shit.

...

YES YOU STUPID MOUTH FOAMING IMBECILE.

:banghead:

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 05:06 AM
I'm not blaming it all on racism.

I don't want to reward irresponsible behavior any more than you do. But I think there is a way to attack it that is smarter than just letting the symptoms continue to fester. That only perpetuates the problem. As I said, it is not just an African-American problem.

Wait, if you're not blaming it all on racism then why is it "not just an African-American problem"?

How can you say that white illigitimacy and black illigitimacy have different "root cause"?

Because it's real easy to look at white illigitimacy and rightly assume and know that the root cause is irresponsible behavior.

But where you and I differ is on black illigitimacy, because I continue to know that the root cause is irresponsible behavior, but you choose racism.

patteeu
08-31-2009, 05:42 AM
That's like you saying that Black people blame their problem on the White man.

What's your explanation for why authorities and reporters were so reluctant in this case to conclude it was a hate crime, but instead suggest that the motive was simple robbery? Do you honestly think they would be equally reluctant if the perpetrators were 4 white guys?

patteeu
08-31-2009, 05:48 AM
This is the most reprehensible thread I've ever seen on this board. Well, except for random Marlboro_Chief child porn threads or something.

Why? Because race issues must not be discussed in your PC world?

penchief
08-31-2009, 06:45 AM
Wait, if you're not blaming it all on racism then why is it "not just an African-American problem"?

How can you say that white illigitimacy and black illigitimacy have different "root cause"?

Because it's real easy to look at white illigitimacy and rightly assume and know that the root cause is irresponsible behavior.

But where you and I differ is on black illigitimacy, because I continue to know that the root cause is irresponsible behavior, but you choose racism.

I have been saying that. If you read my posts, what I am saying is that it is a societal problem. It is irresponsible behavior but it is not irresponsibility based on race. You are the one trying to make it about race. I've already stated that I know more white children born out of wedlock than I do black. Young people today are not getting married just because they get pregnant. White or black. And many of those white mothers I know have multiple kids from different fathers.

Sully is correct to point out that it has more to do with class than it does race. While wealthy people certainly have plenty of sex out of wedlock they are more likely to be educated, use contraception, or abort the fetus. Even if they have the baby it is not considered the social epidemic that it is with poor households. The child born into an economically stable household is shielded from the negative environmental influences that afflict poor children. It is foolish to argue that those symptoms are not more apt to perpetuate themselves in a self-perpetuating environment. I wonder what the percentage is of wealthy people who end up in poverty?

My point all along has been the that the societal conditions resulting from a long history of social and economic oppression has left African-Americans more vulnerable to poverty and the symptoms of poverty, which include children born out of wedlock. And because a larger percentage of blacks live in poverty a larger percentage will have to negotiate the hazards of poverty. Yes, it is all about personal responsibility but the percentages have to do with social conditions and not race.

Black people as a race are not poorer because they are born out of wedlock. A larger percentage of black people live in poverty because a larger percentage are born into poverty.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 07:15 AM
I see the Rockefeller plan of divide and conquer is working quite well, meanwhile the country is bankrupt and the last few morsels are disappearing.

patteeu
08-31-2009, 07:41 AM
You know it is humorous. I didn't even open the link. I told myself after you posted this it was 4 black guys and the guy was a white guy. You didn't disappoint david duke.

Sounds like prejudice to me. Yours.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 10:46 AM
Why? Because race issues must not be discussed in your PC world?
This isn't a discussion. This is SHTSPRAYER, Saul Good, and stevieray posting insane shit while some other posters stand around slack-jawed that those posts are actually happening.

patteeu
08-31-2009, 10:54 AM
This isn't a discussion. This is SHTSPRAYER, Saul Good, and stevieray posting insane shit while some other posters stand around slack-jawed that those posts are actually happening.

Your attempts to stifle discussion notwithstanding, those three and others are making some good points.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 11:03 AM
Your attempts to stifle discussion notwithstanding, those three and others are making some good points.
I'll admit that there are shadows of good points in some of SHT and Saul Good's posts in this thread. Those points are obscured by contempt for black people and by their apparent religious convictions.

ClevelandBronco
08-31-2009, 11:14 AM
"Everybody just gotta keep ****in' everybody 'til they're all the same color."

From the 1998 movie "Bulworth."

That's about the only way to do away with these arguments.

Baby Lee
08-31-2009, 11:22 AM
I don't want to delve too far into this topic, but let's keep in mind that those groups didn't have generation after generation of families (and fathers) ripped apart and sold seperately like car parts in a salvage yard. Has it been a long time since slavery? Yes. Should individual people take responsibility for their own actions? Without question.
But when the baseline for family legitimacy in this country was what it was, it isn't hard to connect the dots why fatherhood isn't as celebrated among one sect of society than others. It's not an excuse. Wrong is wrong. But pretending there are no causes is short sighted and does no good toward seeing the roots of the problem.

If you were to look at divorce rates among folks who had parents who were divorced, you wouldn't be suprised to see a much higher percentage, I assume. So why is anyone suprised at this particular generational issue. And why is drawing the clear line of logic to it's root seen as "making excuses?"
It is interesting to observe the Jewish response to having their families 'parted out' where they devote their lives and resources to tracking down every bit of information and goods [artwork, writings, etc] they can to mend their family bonds.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 12:05 PM
I have been saying that. If you read my posts, what I am saying is that it is a societal problem. It is irresponsible behavior but it is not irresponsibility based on race. You are the one trying to make it about race. I've already stated that I know more white children born out of wedlock than I do black. Young people today are not getting married just because they get pregnant. White or black. And many of those white mothers I know have multiple kids from different fathers.

Sully is correct to point out that it has more to do with class than it does race. While wealthy people certainly have plenty of sex out of wedlock they are more likely to be educated, use contraception, or abort the fetus. Even if they have the baby it is not considered the social epidemic that it is with poor households. The child born into an economically stable household is shielded from the negative environmental influences that afflict poor children. It is foolish to argue that those symptoms are not more apt to perpetuate themselves in a self-perpetuating environment. I wonder what the percentage is of wealthy people who end up in poverty?

My point all along has been the that the societal conditions resulting from a long history of social and economic oppression has left African-Americans more vulnerable to poverty and the symptoms of poverty, which include children born out of wedlock. And because a larger percentage of blacks live in poverty a larger percentage will have to negotiate the hazards of poverty. Yes, it is all about personal responsibility but the percentages have to do with social conditions and not race.

Black people as a race are not poorer because they are born out of wedlock. A larger percentage of black people live in poverty because a larger percentage are born into poverty.


I'm going to let you have the last word because you have been sincere and courteous, and although I can see your point, and I understand your point, I don't agree with it.

The best way I can explain it would be in an analogy. You've the book or seen the movie The Miracle Worker?

Helen Keller = The Black underclass
Her parents (enablers) = White liberals
Annie Sullivan = Conservatives like Thomas Sowell

Peace.

http://townhall.com/Columnists/ThomasSowell/2005/05/05/black_rednecks_and_white_liberals?page=full

Chiefshrink
08-31-2009, 12:50 PM
I have been saying that. If you read my posts, what I am saying is that it is a societal problem. It is irresponsible behavior but it is not irresponsibility based on race. You are the one trying to make it about race. I've already stated that I know more white children born out of wedlock than I do black. Young people today are not getting married just because they get pregnant. White or black. And many of those white mothers I know have multiple kids from different fathers.

Sully is correct to point out that it has more to do with class than it does race. While wealthy people certainly have plenty of sex out of wedlock they are more likely to be educated, use contraception, or abort the fetus. Even if they have the baby it is not considered the social epidemic that it is with poor households. The child born into an economically stable household is shielded from the negative environmental influences that afflict poor children. It is foolish to argue that those symptoms are not more apt to perpetuate themselves in a self-perpetuating environment. I wonder what the percentage is of wealthy people who end up in poverty?

My point all along has been the that the societal conditions resulting from a long history of social and economic oppression has left African-Americans more vulnerable to poverty and the symptoms of poverty, which include children born out of wedlock. And because a larger percentage of blacks live in poverty a larger percentage will have to negotiate the hazards of poverty. Yes, it is all about personal responsibility but the percentages have to do with social conditions and not race.

Black people as a race are not poorer because they are born out of wedlock. A larger percentage of black people live in poverty because a larger percentage are born into poverty.

Has to do with the breakdown of the Judeo/Christian cultural values in our society which ultimately bleeds into more specifically the individual family "REGARDLESS" of race or socioeconomic class, "REGARDLESS" whether you believe in God(Jesus) or are agnostic or atheist. I see this everyday in my office. Nothing to do with color of skin or cash status. I'm on the front lines of this issue!! Trust me:thumb:


Our country is GREAT because these Judeo/Christian values that we live by have produced our Constitution and our legal system and our societal ethics that allow for a free people to govern themselves. Thus, The Bible/Our Constitution our legal system and societal ethics allows the freedom of the individual (freewill) to speak and live however they wish as long as laws are not broken.

Chiefshrink
08-31-2009, 12:57 PM
However, because of the assault by the radical left on these Judeo/Christian values at every turn you are seeing the rapid decline of our great country because "relativity" rules the day. Liberals hate "absolutes" because then that means "accountbility".

Chiefshrink
08-31-2009, 01:00 PM
I inow many people that don't believe in the Bible let alone God but they do embrace the ethics and values taught by the Bible and they are for the most part happy people.

Chiefshrink
08-31-2009, 01:07 PM
Bottom line: Our country has been devised to hold our people "individually accountable" for their actions because our people have been given individual freedom by our Creator given to us in the handbook of The Bible,which produced our legal system(The Constitution).

America was produced for the "independant free individual" not the "you owe me" entitlement crowd. And for you folks who feel "wronged and that society owes you" go live in Europe!!

Duck Dog
08-31-2009, 01:21 PM
What is it with blacks torturing and murdering white people?

Amnorix
08-31-2009, 02:11 PM
I am a no bullshit person. What is your deal? are you a racist? You seem to post threads showing black people in poor form. IMO there is just as high of % of racism with all races. The reason I ask is you appear to point your finger yelling look how bad they are. This gives the impression that you are justifying a hatred you have. This added with a signature that shows men that were known racist men. If you are be a man and own it, if not then say so.

Ayep.

Amnorix
08-31-2009, 02:20 PM
Maybe so, but you don't see abortion clinics in suburbia. If blond-haired, blue-eyed babies were getting thrown into medical waste bins at the level that brown babies are, abortion would be outlawed in about two seconds.

Liberals treat minorities like they treat their pets. They care about them and want to care for them, but they don't see them as equals.

WTF?

Amnorix
08-31-2009, 02:21 PM
Why were Jews able to do in 30 years what blacks haven't been able to do in 150?

Which 30 years were those, and what did they do exactly?

jidar
08-31-2009, 03:13 PM
uhhh... this story WAS all over the news. Just because you numbskulls missed it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 04:09 PM
the responsiblity for all children lies with the man...it's his seed.

A crushing load of horseshit, if I ever read one.

It takes two to tango. The responsibility lies equally on both, AFAICS.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 05:50 PM
I'll admit that there are shadows of good points in some of SHT and Saul Good's posts in this thread. Those points are obscured by contempt for black people and by their apparent religious convictions.

I don't hold blacks in contempt. Quite the opposite. I see them as equals. As such, I care less about their excuses and would prefer to focus on what needs to be done now.

I challenge you to find one example of me posting anything about my religious convictions on the subject.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 06:00 PM
I don't hold blacks in contempt. Quite the opposite. I see them as equals. As such, I care less about their excuses and would prefer to focus on what needs to be done now.

I challenge you to find one example of me posting anything about my religious convictions on the subject.
You're right. I was referring to SHTSPRAYER's own words about himself with the contempt bit. As for examples of your religious conviction in this thread, you have talked about abortion and children born outside of a marriage as primary reasons for the problems that a lot of black people in this country have. That speaks for itself.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 06:11 PM
You're right. I was referring to SHTSPRAYER's own words about himself with the contempt bit. As for examples of your religious conviction in this thread, you have talked about abortion and children born outside of a marriage as primary reasons for the problems that a lot of black people in this country have. That speaks for itself.

Great insight. Only religious zealots would be against raising children without fathers and aborting babies. Those are just old-fashioned American traditions.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 06:13 PM
Sully is correct to point out that it has more to do with class than it does race. While wealthy people certainly have plenty of sex out of wedlock they are more likely to be educated, use contraception, or abort the fetus.

You can't possibly believe that wealthy people are more likely to have abortions than poor people.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 06:14 PM
Which 30 years were those, and what did they do exactly?

How about the 30 years following the end of WWII? What did they do? They put their heads down, worked their asses off, and prospered wherever they settled.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 06:16 PM
Would the Jews have been able to do that in Germany if Hitler had stopped at oppression or slavery instead of extermination? And ruled Germany until he died? You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. The government of this country never institutinalized slavery against the Jews. Nor did they try to deny Jewish citiziens the right to full citizenship or the right to vote. Or equal access to education and jobs. All of which retarded the economic prosperity of the black race as a whole.

Other than our attempt to exterminate the native American, I don't ever recall our country systematically doing that to any other race. Do you?

Again, the point is not that progress hasn't been made. The point is that ignoring the lingering effects of those "policies" does a disservice to both how far we have come in such a short period of time and how far we still have to go.

Are you saying that what the Jews have had to overcome throughout history is somehow less than what blacks face in America today?

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 06:30 PM
Great insight. Only religious zealots would be against raising children without fathers and aborting babies. Those are just old-fashioned American traditions.
Having a present father in the life of a child doesn't necessitate marriage. And I'm just playing the odds with the abortion thing; the vast, vast majority of pro-life people are Christian.

How about the 30 years following the end of WWII? What did they do? They put their heads down, worked their asses off, and prospered wherever they settled.
I still don't see how the comparison makes sense.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 06:36 PM
Are you saying that what the Jews have had to overcome throughout history is somehow less than what blacks face in America today?

Saul, seriously, you can't talk these silly white kids. They've been fully indoctrinated with the leftist narrative and other forms of science fiction.

There is absolutely no comparison between the black experience in America and what happened to Jews in Europe before and during WW2. These moonbats should read about what happened to Poland and the Polish people at the hands of the Germans and the Russians, during and after the war. That's oppression, that's brutality.

Blacks have, in spite of the adversity that they did face through no fault of their own, thrived and prospered in America. Everything changed in the 60's and as far as I'm concerned and the facts and reality will validate my beliefs, what ails the black underclass in America in the 21st century has nothing to do with what happened in 1861, 1915, or even 1958.

The importation of slaves into the United States was made illegal I think in 1846, and record clearly show that only like 400,000 blacks were in this country at that time. In America today, there's what, 39 million?

Sorry, but people who are "oppressed" do not breed and multiply like that. It just doesn't happen, and only a complete jackass would suggest otherwise. American Indians were oppressed. Entire nations were wiped out.

So really, there isn't anything left to say. Those who want to succeed, do. Those that don't, well they buy into all the Marxist BS and in the end, they are only destroying themselves.

They got their black president, and it's still not enough. It never is. The belligerence will never stop. You do your best to avoid them (the black underclass) and try and live your life and protect your family. That's it. That's all you can do. I don't want to hear theirr BS any more. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of them, and I'm sick of moonbats. And I don't have to suffer their ignorant behavior gladly.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 06:39 PM
Having a present father in the life of a child doesn't necessitate marriage.

No s***. A Father who is worth a damn is going to be a parent whether he has a civil/religious piece of paper that makes it "OK" in the eyes of whomever.

One who isn't worth a damn won't be, even if he has a ring on his finger.

:shake:

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 06:52 PM
Having a present father in the life of a child doesn't necessitate marriage.
This is true. Piloting an airplane doesn't necessitate having your eyes open, either. One way just tends to work better than the other. Or are you saying that, while 80% of black children are born to single mothers, their fathers tend to play an active role in their lives?


And I'm just playing the odds with the abortion thing; the vast, vast majority of pro-life people are Christian.

You are hopelessly ignorant of every other religion in the world. I don't belong to any organized religion.


I still don't see how the comparison makes sense.
That makes sense. There really is no comparison between the way that Jews have overcome being ripped apart from their families, kicked out of their homeland, and been treated as less than human and the way that African Americans have failed to do so.

If the root cause is the way that they have been treated throughout the course of history, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone operating at a larger disadvantage than Jews. That said, when I turn on the news, I don't see a bunch of Jewish faces with the word "suspect" underneath. When I drive past the welfare office, I don't see a long line of Jews. When I'm lost, I don't worry that I will wind up in a Jewish neighborhood after dark.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 06:54 PM
That's it. That's all you can do. I don't want to hear theirr BS any more. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of them, and I'm sick of moonbats. And I don't have to suffer their ignorant behavior gladly.
We would love it if you left. Feel free to make your exit; no one wants you to suffer.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 06:54 PM
No s***. A Father who is worth a damn is going to be a parent whether he has a civil/religious piece of paper that makes it "OK" in the eyes of whomever.

One who isn't worth a damn won't be, even if he has a ring on his finger.

:shake:

So true. Most children of unmarried black women have a lot of good parental involvement from their fathers.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 06:55 PM
We would love it if you left. Feel free to make your exit; no one wants you to suffer.

"We"? You better take a poll their, Rimmer.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 06:55 PM
So true. Most children of unmarried black women have a lot of good parental involvement from their fathers.

ROFL

penchief
08-31-2009, 06:56 PM
You can't possibly believe that wealthy people are more likely to have abortions than poor people.

I'm saying that they are more easily able to take advantage of their options. Wealthy people are less likely to become pregnant even though they have just as much sex out of wedlock. And if they do become pregnant and don't want to have the child they can discreetly abort the fetus. If they choose to have the baby that child is not going to to have the same uphill climb as those who are born into poverty.

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth when I've been pretty clear about what I mean?

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 06:58 PM
I'm saying that they are more easily able to take advantage of their options. Wealthy people are less likely to become pregnant even though they have just as much sex out of wedlock. And if they do become pregnant and don't want to have the child they can discreetly abort the fetus. If they choose to have the baby that child is not going to to have the same uphill climb as those who are born into poverty.

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth when I've been pretty clear about what I mean?

80% of black children are born out of wedlock.

No one is having "just as much sex out of wedlock" as they are. Are you kidding me???

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 06:59 PM
This is true. Piloting an airplane doesn't necessitate having your eyes open, either. One way just tends to work better than the other. Or are you saying that, while 80% of black children are born to single mothers, their fathers tend to play an active role in their lives?
See Adept's post above.


You are hopelessly ignorant of every other religion in the world. I don't belong to any organized religion.
I was just speaking about America. With respect to you, I was just playing the odds. It seems I was wrong about you, but I would play those odds everytime. More than 9 times out of 10, someone who thinks takes as large of a pro-life stance as to say that abortion is one of the primary things causing problems for black Americans is going to be a Christian.


That makes sense. There really is no comparison between the way that Jews have overcome being ripped apart from their families, kicked out of their homeland, and been treated as less than human and the way that African Americans have failed to do so.

If the root cause is the way that they have been treated throughout the course of history, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone operating at a larger disadvantage than Jews. That said, when I turn on the news, I don't see a bunch of Jewish faces with the word "suspect" underneath. When I drive past the welfare office, I don't see a long line of Jews. When I'm lost, I don't worry that I will wind up in a Jewish neighborhood after dark.
I'm not one to blame everything on slavery. Its important, yeah, but I'm not going to trace the problems back to it. That's a cop-out.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 07:00 PM
"We"? You better take a poll their, Rimmer.
I was speaking for the moonbat contingent.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 07:00 PM
I'm saying that they are more easily able to take advantage of their options. Wealthy people are less likely to become pregnant even though they have just as much sex out of wedlock. And if they do become pregnant and don't want to have the child they can discreetly abort the fetus. If they choose to have the baby that child is not going to to have the same uphill climb as those who are born into poverty.

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth when I've been pretty clear about what I mean?

I don't insist on putting words in your mouth. You said that the wealthy were more likely to have abortions despite all statistics to the contrary. If you said something that you didn't mean, that's on you.

The wealthy tend to be wealthy because they make better decisions than the average person. The vast majority of wealthy Americans did not come from wealth. It may surprise you to learn that immigrants are much more likely to become wealthy in the US than are natural born citizens. Read "The Millionaire Next Door". It is the largest study ever done on the wealthy and focuses on who they are and how they got there.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 07:01 PM
So true. Most children of unmarried black women have a lot of good parental involvement from their fathers.

As I said, those "Fathers" aren't going to be worth a damn whether they have some ceremony and a piece of paper or not. :shrug:

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 07:01 PM
As I said, those "Fathers" aren't going to be worth a damn whether they have some ceremony and a piece of paper or not. :shrug:

Kind of speaks volume to the character of the young ladies who spread their legs for these pieces of shit.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 07:09 PM
More than 9 times out of 10, someone who thinks takes as large of a pro-life stance as to say that abortion is one of the primary things causing problems for black Americans is going to be a Christian.

I never made such a statement. I think that abortion is a tragedy. I don't think that its availability has a substantial impact on the general well-being of blacks. They tend to kill each other in the womb 400% more often than the rest of the population. They tend to kill each other outside of the womb about 1000% more often than the rest of the population.

If they would make more thoughtful reproductive decisions, they wouldn't need to have so many abortions, and they would be raised in environments that didn't lead to violence. You don't seem to want to admit that a child born into a traditional, nuclear family has a better chance for success than one born to a single mother without involvement from the father. It's no skin off of my nose. I was raised right (even though I grew up poor), and I raise my son right (now that I earn a six figure living).

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 07:10 PM
As I said, those "Fathers" aren't going to be worth a damn whether they have some ceremony and a piece of paper or not. :shrug:

All else being equal, is a child born into a nuclear family more likely to succeed than a child born of a single mother?

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 07:11 PM
I never made such a statement. I think that abortion is a tragedy. I don't think that its availability has a substantial impact on the general well-being of blacks. They tend to kill each other in the womb 400% more often than the rest of the population. They tend to kill each other outside of the womb about 1000% more often than the rest of the population.

If they would make more thoughtful reproductive decisions, they wouldn't need to have so many abortions, and they would be raised in environments that didn't lead to violence. You don't seem to want to admit that a child born into a traditional, nuclear family has a better chance for success than one born to a single mother without involvement from the father. It's no skin off of my nose. I was raised right (even though I grew up poor), and I raise my son right (now that I earn a six figure living).

:clap::bravo::rockon:

penchief
08-31-2009, 07:12 PM
Are you saying that what the Jews have had to overcome throughout history is somehow less than what blacks face in America today?

No. I said that you are comparing apples to oranges. Blacks in this country had to endure hundreds of years of slavery and second class citizenship. Thier second class citizenship was deeply ingrained within our society and our public policy. Overcoming centuries of institutionalized second class citizenship is not as simple as snapping your fingers. There is no question that we are still feeling the residual effects of those policies.

Nobody is trying to diminish the plight of the Jewish people or the hatred that they have had to endure. It's just that it is not a good comparison relative to the discussion we are having about the slavery and oppression of African Americans within the context of American society.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 07:12 PM
All else being equal, is a child born into a nuclear family more likely to succeed than a child born of a single mother?

A father can't be part of a nuclear family without a piece of paper and a civil/religious ritual?

:spock:

Many of us don't need a ritual to do the right thing.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 07:14 PM
I never made such a statement. I think that abortion is a tragedy. I don't think that its availability has a substantial impact on the general well-being of blacks. They tend to kill each other in the womb 400% more often than the rest of the population. They tend to kill each other outside of the womb about 1000% more often than the rest of the population.

If they would make more thoughtful reproductive decisions, they wouldn't need to have so many abortions, and they would be raised in environments that didn't lead to violence. You don't seem to want to admit that a child born into a traditional, nuclear family has a better chance for success than one born to a single mother without involvement from the father. It's no skin off of my nose. I was raised right (even though I grew up poor), and I raise my son right (now that I earn a six figure living).
My apologies. I misinterpreted some of your earlier comments regarding abortion, then.

I will readily admit that a child is more likely to "succeed" in a strong family.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 07:14 PM
A father can't be part of a nuclear family without a piece of paper and a civil/religious ritual?

:spock:

Many of us don't need a ritual to do the right thing.

You have this amazing ability to obsess around the negligible periphery of any argument. It truly is atounding. I'm astounded. Did I tell you I was astounded?