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HonestChieffan
08-31-2009, 10:37 AM
Notice the virtual lack of coverage of how Iraq is going to the dogs under the Obama trop reduction? And today thery are saying the comanders in Afganistan say we have a poor strategy underway....

Maybe being a street organizer and poster putter upper isn't really the right background to be President.


Iraq: suspected bomber recently released by US
By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA (AP) – 21 hours ago

BAGHDAD — The suicide truck bomber who targeted Iraq's Foreign Ministry in one of the most deadly attacks this year had recently been freed from U.S. custody, an Iraqi investigator said Sunday, raising fresh concerns that former detainees will return to violence.

The revelation came as the government added more fodder to its allegations that Syria has been used as a launching pad for violence in Iraq, broadcasting a confession from a man who said he received militant training in the neighboring country.

Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has taken the Aug. 19 bombings that devastated the foreign and finance ministries and killed about 100 people personally as they dealt a major blow to confidence in his administration and security forces just two months after most U.S. forces pulled back from urban areas.

The attacks have undermined his efforts to portray himself as a champion of security and restore a sense of normalcy in the capital ahead of January's parliamentary elections.

A senior Iraqi investigator said the man who carried out the attack against the Foreign Ministry was a former detainee at the U.S. detention camp known as Camp Bucca in southern Iraq.

The bomber left his identification card at a checkpoint in order to be allowed to approach the Foreign Ministry and police were able to track down his background from the information, according to the investigator, who spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the information.

The Americans have been releasing detainees or transferring them to Iraqi custody to comply with a security pact that took effect on Jan. 1, but some Iraqis have complained that those freed from custody have returned to violence.

The number of detainees in U.S. custody dropped to 8,947 from a high of 27,000 in 2007, the lowest it has been in more than four years, the U.S. military said Sunday.

Detainees in U.S. custody are held at three facilities — 3,572 at Camp Cropper, 4,585 at Camp Taji and 790 at Camp Bucca, according to the statement. Camp Bucca is due to be closed in mid-September.

The U.S. military says its policy is to review every detainee's file with the Iraqi government to determine whether a warrant should be issued or the inmate should be freed.

The military said 1,179 detainees facing a warrant or detention order have been transferred to the Iraqi government while 5,236 have been released.

"We work very closely with the Iraqi government to ensure releases and transfers are conducted in a safe and orderly manner," Capt. Brad Kimberly, a spokesman for U.S. detainee operations, said in the statement.

In the confession aired Sunday, the man introduced himself as a 29-year-old Saudi Arabian named Mohammed Bin Hassan Bin Abdullah al-Shimmari and said he had been encouraged by preachers in his native, mainly Sunni country to go fight U.S. forces and Shiites in Iraq.

"I was sent to a training camp in Latakia in northern Syria," he said in a statement that was aired on Iraqi state television.

After completing training, al-Shimmari said he entered Iraq through Anbar province. He said he and other foreign fighters attacked Iraqi police and kidnapped and killed Shiites, with funding from Sunni clerics in Saudi Arabia, he said.

Allegations of foreign fighters entering Iraq from neighboring countries are not new, but the Iraqi government has stepped up its rhetoric against Syria following the Aug. 19 coordinated suicide truck bombings in the heart of Baghdad.

The Iraqis have demanded that Damascus hand over several people suspected of involvement in violence in Iraq, including two Saddam loyalists accused of financing and organizing the ministry attacks.

Syria balked, saying the Iraqis provided no proof. Syrian President Bashar Assad Sunday called on Iraq to come forward with evidence indicating Syrian involvement, in comments carried by the official Syrian news agency.

Both countries recalled their ambassadors last week, raising concerns among neighboring countries that the situation could escalate.

In a bid to ease tensions, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu planned to meet leaders in Iraq and Syria on Monday, according to an aide who declined to be identified because he was not authorized to brief journalists.

Violence continued Sunday with bombers taking aim at Iraqi security forces.

A suicide car bomber struck an Iraqi military checkpoint in the mainly Sunni area of Azamiyah, killing at least one soldier and wounding 13 other people, including three civilians, according to police and Interior Ministry officials.

A roadside bomb targeted an Iraqi police patrol earlier Sunday in the mainly Shiite area of Kamaliyah in eastern Baghdad, killing one bystander and wounding four others, police and hospital officials said.

Associated Press Writer Sameer N. Yacoub in Baghdad and Suzan Fraser in Ankara, Turkey, contributed to this report.

patteeu
08-31-2009, 11:51 AM
It's disheartening that so many hard fought gains can be squandered so casually. Obama may well work his way to the top of worst president in history list before his term is over.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 12:01 PM
Solution, end the war and fix the economy.

RINGLEADER
08-31-2009, 12:21 PM
It's disheartening that so many hard fought gains can be squandered so casually. Obama may well work his way to the top of worst president in history list before his term is over.

That's part of certain politicians' thought process.

As far as Obama goes I think he's just naive. He believes if you show acts of compassion they will be met with compassion. He sees success as leaving Iraq, not maintaining the gains that were made. He sees success as being liked by the world, not in achieving what should be America's interests.

BucEyedPea
08-31-2009, 12:22 PM
Solution, end the war and fix the economy.

Yup!

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 12:23 PM
That's part of certain politicians' thought process.

As far as Obama goes I think he's just naive. He believes if you show acts of compassion they will be met with compassion. He sees success as leaving Iraq, not maintaining the gains that were made. He sees success as being liked by the world, not in achieving what should be America's interests.

Obama isn't going to be leaving Iraq anytime soon, he's just expanding the war into pakistan now.

RINGLEADER
08-31-2009, 12:23 PM
Solution, end the war and fix the economy.

Per my other thread I think, given what he wants to do with the economy, it is coming perilously close to being unfixable.

If Obama succeeds he will leave us with a $23 trillion debt. That's just impossible to pay off. We're spending hundreds of billions in the form of interest payments to not face this reality.

BucEyedPea
08-31-2009, 12:24 PM
Obama isn't going to be leaving Iraq anytime soon, he's just expanding the war into pakistan now.

and the land of the Afghans.

HonestChieffan
08-31-2009, 12:34 PM
Its easy to do what he is doing when you have no principals. Forget the Iraqi people, use the political gain by leaving and squash and media reporting of the new violence, then go off to afganistan and make sure people get news that is favorable just long enough to leave. He will leave the entire region in disarray and will create long term more and more issues we will have to deal with later on.

wild1
08-31-2009, 12:44 PM
Solution, end the war and fix the economy.

All the government's action makes the economy worse. We're better off with them spending money on the war.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 12:57 PM
We're better off with them spending money on the war.

Nah it's just another black hole to throw money into, we already have the nuclear deterrent let's get back to actually making goods here and stop shipping jobs overseas. Throw the Oligarchs out and End Nafta and Gatt and become the innovators we once were.

wild1
08-31-2009, 01:13 PM
Nah it's just another black hole to throw money into, we already have the nuclear deterrent let's get back to actually making goods here and stop shipping jobs overseas. Throw the Oligarchs out and End Nafta and Gatt and become the innovators we once were.

I'm not arguing about isolationism.

All I said was that the war(s) is/are doing more to stimulate the economy (or hold it back from the edge) than anything they are producing out of Congress in the form of "stimulus"

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 01:15 PM
I'm not arguing about isolationism.

All I said was that the war(s) is/are doing more to stimulate the economy (or hold it back from the edge) than anything they are producing out of Congress in the form of "stimulus"

That wouldn't take much, they could sit around and play parcheesi all day and do more for the economy.

Taco John
08-31-2009, 01:21 PM
It's disheartening that so many hard fought gains can be squandered so casually. Obama may well work his way to the top of worst president in history list before his term is over.

It was predictable.

We told you so.

wild1
08-31-2009, 01:23 PM
That wouldn't take much, they could sit around and play parcheesi all day and do more for the economy.

Your slogan about "stop the war and fix the economy" implies they'd take the resources allocated to the war (which are being spent into the economy on the materials needed to do so) and allocate them to where Obama/Reid/Pelosi think they should go. I'll keep them where they are instead, thanks.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 01:26 PM
Your slogan about "stop the war and fix the economy" implies they'd take the resources allocated to the war (which are being spent into the economy on the materials needed to do so) and allocate them to where Obama/Reid/Pelosi think they should go. I'll keep them where they are instead, thanks.

It's all moot anyways since Obama is expanding the war effort, via Brzezinski's plan to encircle Russia.

wild1
08-31-2009, 01:44 PM
It's all moot anyways since Obama is expanding the war effort, via Brzezinski's plan to encircle Russia.

did you hear this on art bell's show?

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 01:45 PM
did you hear this on art bell's show?

Nope, you can read it in Brzezinski's the Grand Chessboard if you like.

Chief Faithful
08-31-2009, 01:54 PM
Nah it's just another black hole to throw money into, we already have the nuclear deterrent let's get back to actually making goods here and stop shipping jobs overseas. Throw the Oligarchs out and End Nafta and Gatt and become the innovators we once were.

I do love the sarcasm. :)

patteeu
08-31-2009, 01:54 PM
It was predictable.

We told you so.

Hell, I know it was predictable. Why do you think I was willing to support John McCain over this fool. I said from the beginning that I was casting my vote with foreign policy (especially Iraq) and the supreme court in mind despite not particularly caring for McCain.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 01:58 PM
Hell, I know it was predictable. Why do you think I was willing to support John McCain over this fool. I said from the beginning that I was casting my vote with foreign policy (especially Iraq) and the supreme court in mind despite not particularly caring for McCain.

We won't have a foreign policy when our economy collapses, it will consist of please don't hurt us. Mccain said recently that he thought Soetoro was an avid defender of the constitution.

patteeu
08-31-2009, 02:02 PM
We won't have a foreign policy when our economy collapses, it will consist of please don't hurt us. Mccain said recently that he thought Soetoro was an avid defender of the constitution.

McCain says a lot of things that I think are dopey. I think he thinks it makes him look better to be the anti-Limbaugh. It's one of his many shortcomings.

Chiefshrink
08-31-2009, 02:26 PM
Bottom Line: You don't let terrorists sh** on our front lawn killing 3000 of own American brothers and sisters and then let them get away with it. The only thing these militant religous terrorists relate to and GET is WAR. They see diplomacy as being a pussy and a way to use it against us. This is what the radical left fails to see. Hell it took us 1 and a half yrs to go to war because of the "politics of the Left"! That's insane!! You fight the war to win and you finish the job regardless how ugly it gets. THAT IS THE COST OF FREEDOM, PERIOD!

Amnorix
08-31-2009, 03:08 PM
Did any of you fellows notice this part?

The Americans have been releasing detainees or transferring them to Iraqi custody to comply with a security pact that took effect on Jan. 1, but some Iraqis have complained that those freed from custody have returned to violence.


Meanwhile, in any case anyone lost track, Mr. Obama: "was inaugurated as president (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inauguration_of_Barack_Obama) on January 20, 2009."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama


But you know, feel free to continue to blame him for absolutely everything under the sun if it makes you happy.

Chiefshrink
08-31-2009, 06:31 PM
Did any of you fellows notice this part?



Meanwhile, in any case anyone lost track, Mr. Obama: "was inaugurated as president (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inauguration_of_Barack_Obama) on January 20, 2009."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama


But you know, feel free to continue to blame him for absolutely everything under the sun if it makes you happy.

PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Dick-Cheney-defends-torture-again-on-Fox-News-8-30-09

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 06:38 PM
Did any of you fellows notice this part?



Meanwhile, in any case anyone lost track, Mr. Obama: "was inaugurated as president (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inauguration_of_Barack_Obama) on January 20, 2009."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama


But you know, feel free to continue to blame him for absolutely everything under the sun if it makes you happy.
You shouldn't confuse sportsshrink with linear timelines. ROFL

As for the Iraqis:


More accurately it's along the lines of "We've spent a massive amount of blood and treasure to give you Iraqis your nation back. Now it's on YOU to decide if you want to bleed to keep it. If not, GFY." Hell, the Krauts had nothing left in '45, but four years later in the face of Soviet undermining they had a decent country (FRG) and a solid base for the Bundeswehr.

We've done our part. If they lose their country now, it's on them. Give 'em all the money, training, and intel they need. It's their turn to provide the blood.


:shrug:

patteeu
08-31-2009, 06:46 PM
:shrug:

If the only reason we were doing it was to give the Iraqis back their country, then we shouldn't have done it. Of course, that's not the case though.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 07:10 PM
If the only reason we were doing it was to give the Iraqis back their country, then we shouldn't have done it. Of course, that's not the case though.

Either way, AFAICS it's on them to keep what we've given them.

If you want to be an "enabler" (to borrow some of sportsshrinks psychopiffle ;)) and let them continue to shirk their responsibilities now that they have their country, go right ahead. I expect more after what we've done for them.

patteeu
08-31-2009, 08:17 PM
Either way, AFAICS it's on them to keep what we've given them.

If you want to be an "enabler" (to borrow some of sportsshrinks psychopiffle ;)) and let them continue to shirk their responsibilities now that they have their country, go right ahead. I expect more after what we've done for them.

Surely the choice isn't between being an enabler and losing Iraq. What happened to the master statesman that we elected last November?

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 08:21 PM
Surely the choice isn't between being an enabler and losing Iraq. What happened to the master statesman that we elected last November?

Who thought he was a "Master Statesman"?

And yeah, it pretty much is. Either the Iraqis stand up for themselves, or we continue to be an enabler while they whine about how hard it is to protect what we've given them.

patteeu
09-01-2009, 06:05 AM
Who thought he was a "Master Statesman"?

There were quite a few people who voted for Obama thinking that diplomacy was some kind of panacea and that Barack Obama was the guy who could deliver it. With as much time as you spent around here last election cycle, I'm surprised you didn't notice it. Kudos to you if you weren't one of them though.

And yeah, it pretty much is. Either the Iraqis stand up for themselves, or we continue to be an enabler while they whine about how hard it is to protect what we've given them.

Obviously, I disagree.

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 07:42 AM
Surely the choice isn't between being an enabler and losing Iraq. What happened to the master statesman that we elected last November?

How long do you think we should stay in Iraq then? Forever? Blank check indefinite military occupation?

We've already been there longer than we had Japan after WWII, and I believe it was about this long (7 or so years) when the military control commission started turning things over to the newly constituted West Germany after WWII.

There must be a better way of handling these things than indefinite occupation. That's not going to make us safer in the long run. Most likely it'd be the opposite, in fact.

CHIEF4EVER
09-01-2009, 07:52 AM
How long do you think we should stay in Iraq then? Forever? Blank check indefinite military occupation?

We've already been there longer than we had Japan after WWII, and I believe it was about this long (7 or so years) when the military control commission started turning things over to the newly constituted West Germany after WWII.

There must be a better way of handling these things than indefinite occupation. That's not going to make us safer in the long run. Most likely it'd be the opposite, in fact.

Not to put a fly in the soup, but, we are still in Korea and we occupied Berlin from 1945-1990. Just saying.

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 08:07 AM
Not to put a fly in the soup, but, we are still in Korea and we occupied Berlin from 1945-1990. Just saying.

We did not freaking "occupy" Berlin or Korea. We agreed with the local government to keep a small military force there for our mutual benefit. In fact, I have little doubt that the South Koreans are very thankful for our ongoing presence, given the nuttiness of their northern neighbors.

If we can reach agreement with Iraq to maintain a Ramstein like base there, great. The difference between that and military occupation is night and day.

CHIEF4EVER
09-01-2009, 08:27 AM
We did not freaking "occupy" Berlin or Korea. We agreed with the local government to keep a small military force there for our mutual benefit. In fact, I have little doubt that the South Koreans are very thankful for our ongoing presence, given the nuttiness of their northern neighbors.

If we can reach agreement with Iraq to maintain a Ramstein like base there, great. The difference between that and military occupation is night and day.

Not to disagree, but we DID occupy Berlin from 1945-1990. I was stationed in the Berlin Brigade as a member of one of the 4 OCCUPYING POWERS (England/France/USSR/US). Berlin was like a keyhole 109 miles behind the Iron Curtain, did not belong to the FRG, and its citizens were exempt from military service in the Bundeswehr. I received the ARMY OF OCCUPATION MEDAL for my service in the Berlin Brigade. BTW, I said we are still IN Korea so I agree with the statement that we are not (and never were) occupying them. I was hinting at the long term stationing of soldiers on their soil.

Radar Chief
09-01-2009, 08:40 AM
Not to disagree, but we DID occupy Berlin from 1945-1990. I was stationed in the Berlin Brigade as a member of one of the 4 OCCUPYING POWERS (England/France/USSR/US). Berlin was like a keyhole 109 miles behind the Iron Curtain, did not belong to the FRG, and its citizens were exempt from military service in the Bundeswehr. I received the ARMY OF OCCUPATION MEDAL for my service in the Berlin Brigade. BTW, I said we are still IN Korea so I agree with the statement that we are not (and never were) occupying them. I was hinting at the long term stationing of soldiers on their soil.

:thumb: I had a high school buddy in the Berlin Brigade.
He was a big part in convincing me to join the Army.

CHIEF4EVER
09-01-2009, 08:43 AM
:thumb: I had a high school buddy in the Berlin Brigade.
He was a big part in convincing me to join the Army.

It was great duty. I actually got to train with the Brits and the French and also guarded Rudolph Hess (a.k.a. Prisoner Number 7) at Spandau Allied Prison twice. Really interesting stuff.

BucEyedPea
09-01-2009, 08:54 AM
But I thought Les Français were pussys? Who'd wanna train with them?

CHIEF4EVER
09-01-2009, 08:55 AM
But I thought Les Français were pussys? Who'd wanna train with them?

They are, but it was still interesting to train with them and see their pussification first hand. :evil:

Radar Chief
09-01-2009, 08:57 AM
They are, but it was still interesting to train with them and see their pussification first hand. :evil:

Did they surrender to you?
I hear they have some cool rifles. Never used and only dropped once. ;)

BucEyedPea
09-01-2009, 08:58 AM
Heh! Heh! That was funny C4evr.

Still I wouldn't want to go up against them when they were rolling out tumbrils, or when Boney was conquering Europe.
Their resistance fought valiantly in WWII while their many Nazi collaborators in their govt led to them rolling over for the Germans.

patteeu
09-01-2009, 09:03 AM
How long do you think we should stay in Iraq then? Forever? Blank check indefinite military occupation?

We've already been there longer than we had Japan after WWII, and I believe it was about this long (7 or so years) when the military control commission started turning things over to the newly constituted West Germany after WWII.

There must be a better way of handling these things than indefinite occupation. That's not going to make us safer in the long run. Most likely it'd be the opposite, in fact.

There hasn't been an occupation in Iraq for years now. I'd be willing to stay in Iraq for as long as we have interests there. If that's forever, I'm OK with that. We're still in both Germany and Japan.

BucEyedPea
09-01-2009, 09:31 AM
There hasn't been an occupation in Iraq for years now.
:LOL:
They only left Bagdhad and went to the outskirts.

I'd be willing to stay in Iraq for as long as we have interests there. If that's forever, I'm OK with that.
You just said we're not occupying it but are willing to stay. Which is it?
Interests? Sounds rather vague and general. Where does the Constitution say we should use our military for such a thing as "interests?" Are you suggesting it's needed to control oil?


We're still in both Germany and Japan.
Three wrongs don't make any of them right. We don't need to be there anymore either. Totally unecessary at this point.


I know you don't like to hear it but this is why the two partisan sides ( R & D) are no longer wanted by anyone outside those factions.
I hear Japan is making steps to build up its military now.

patteeu
09-01-2009, 09:53 AM
:LOL:
They only left Bagdhad and went to the outskirts.


You just said we're not occupying it but are willing to stay. Which is it?
Interests? Sounds rather vague and general. Where does the Constitution say we should use our military for such a thing as "interests?" Are you suggesting it's needed to control oil?

You're talking about troop locations, not issues of sovereignty and occupation. As has already been noted, we have large numbers of troops in many countries around the world like Germany, Japan, and South Korea, but we aren't occupying those countries.

BucEyedPea
09-01-2009, 09:55 AM
Blah! Blah! Blah! Spin! Spin! Spin!

Iraq and Afghanistan are still occupations.

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 10:00 AM
Not to disagree, but we DID occupy Berlin from 1945-1990. I was stationed in the Berlin Brigade as a member of one of the 4 OCCUPYING POWERS (England/France/USSR/US). Berlin was like a keyhole 109 miles behind the Iron Curtain, did not belong to the FRG, and its citizens were exempt from military service in the Bundeswehr. I received the ARMY OF OCCUPATION MEDAL for my service in the Berlin Brigade. BTW, I said we are still IN Korea so I agree with the statement that we are not (and never were) occupying them. I was hinting at the long term stationing of soldiers on their soil.

Oh sorry, you're right. Berlin. I was thinking West Germany, like an idiot.

The Berlin situation was horribly convoluted, and tied up in the Cold War. Berlin Air Lift and all that from the late 40s. It was a very exceptional case.

The issue here is that since the rise of nationalism in the early half of the 20th century, and even earlier in other parts of the world, it has been extremely difficult if not impossible for any country to effectively subjugate a foreign country as an occupying power except under weird/limited circumstances.

If Iraq thought we were going to occupy it indefinitely, or control it through a puppet government, the situation would turn grim quickly.

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 10:01 AM
It was great duty. I actually got to train with the Brits and the French and also guarded Rudolph Hess (a.k.a. Prisoner Number 7) at Spandau Allied Prison twice. Really interesting stuff.

I'll always wonder about his death. Presumably it was natural enough, though I seem to recall that around the time he died there was a huge clamoring to release him already...

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 10:03 AM
Heh! Heh! That was funny C4evr.

Still I wouldn't want to go up against them when they were rolling out tumbrils, or when Boney was conquering Europe.
Their resistance fought valiantly in WWII while their many Nazi collaborators in their govt led to them rolling over for the Germans.

Their collaborators weren't why they lost initially. That was basically strategic and tactical mismanagement of forces, and superior German strategy and tactics.

The collaboration came after defeat, not before.

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 10:06 AM
There hasn't been an occupation in Iraq for years now. I'd be willing to stay in Iraq for as long as we have interests there. If that's forever, I'm OK with that. We're still in both Germany and Japan.

I have no problem with a mutual agreement as to military presence. That's far different from even where we are today. I'm not keen on a Vietnam-style propping up of an unsupportable government, if that's what Iraq turns out to be long term.

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 10:08 AM
Sounds rather vague and general. Where does the Constitution say we should use our military for such a thing as "interests?" Are you suggesting it's needed to control oil?

Putting aside the oil issue, where does the Constitution prohibit America's ability to station troops wherever?

patteeu
09-01-2009, 10:12 AM
I have no problem with a mutual agreement as to military presence. That's far different from even where we are today. I'm not keen on a Vietnam-style propping up of an unsupportable government, if that's what Iraq turns out to be long term.

Then we're basically in agreement. I don't think the Obama administration is doing what they need to do to get the Iraqis to join in a mutual agreement that will preserve the gains made by the Bush administration. I think Obama is content with closing up shop and blaming the results on Bush and the Iraqis. I don't think he cares about what happens in Iraq. I think that both Iraq and Afghanistan are about politics to Obama, not national security.

CHIEF4EVER
09-01-2009, 10:27 AM
I'll always wonder about his death. Presumably it was natural enough, though I seem to recall that around the time he died there was a huge clamoring to release him already...


I have grave doubts as to the accuracy of the official story of Hess's 'suicide'. Having personally seen him on several occasions, I think he was incapable of killing himself in the manner claimed. He was so infirm that he was unable to walk unassisted, much less hang himself. I also found the claim that he was 'briefly alone' in the courtyard garden house incredible since he was never allowed to be alone for any period of time when outside of his cell. This, coupled with the controversy at the time about his disposition and the disposition of the prison itself in that politically charged climate, leads me to disbelieve the official version of his demise.

Adept Havelock
09-01-2009, 05:02 PM
It was great duty. I actually got to train with the Brits and the French and also guarded Rudolph Hess (a.k.a. Prisoner Number 7) at Spandau Allied Prison twice. Really interesting stuff.

It was a shame those mercs broke him out...

Nevermind...that was the god-awful sequel "The Wild Geese 2". :p


Seriously though, that's pretty damn cool. :thumb: