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View Full Version : U.S. Issues Student suspended for doing what is right. No wonder people are fed up.


HonestChieffan
08-31-2009, 03:13 PM
Proof some kids have more sence than the dumbass administration.


'Take that thing off your head'
ROTC student suspended for telling Muslim to respect flag, remove hijab

Posted: August 29, 2009
11:20 pm Eastern

© 2009 WorldNetDaily


Maybe it's because her dad served in the U.S. Marines ... or because her high school mascot is a fierce-looking eagle ... or because she plans to enlist in the Army next summer after graduation to defend her country ... whatever the reason, when Heather Lawrence saw a fellow student refuse to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and recite it with the class, the 16-year-old Junior ROTC member saw a teachable moment and took it.

And for that, she's been suspended five days.

Lawrence's troubles with administrators at Springstead High School in Spring Hill, Fla., began last Wednesday when she noticed a female Muslim student refusing to participate in the Pledge. The student was wearing a hijab, the traditional Muslim headscarf.

Later in the day, Lawrence encountered the student between periods and told her she should stand for the pledge, reported Hernando Today.

"Take that thing off your head and act like you're proud to be an American," Lawrence told her.

Ever wonder why you keep seeing these stories of U.S. institutions advancing the cause of Islam? Get "Islam & The End Times" on DVD. Joel Richardson probes the connections you've probably never heard.

Although the student walked away and filed no complaint, a teacher overheard Lawrence's comment and reported her to school administrators. On Friday, Lawrence was called to Assistant Principal Steve Crognale's office and her father was called and informed she would be suspended for five days.

"I said, 'That is absolutely ridiculous,'" Mark Lawrence told Hernando Today. "I thought it was very unfair."

When pressed to justify the suspension, Crognale said it was because she made a threat, the father claimed. Under further questioning, Lawrence said Crognale "backed off" and said Heather had "caused mental duress" for the Muslim student, even though she had made no complaint. Crognale said school policy allowed him to suspend Heather for 10 days.

Lawrence noted that Heather and her sister stood for the flag pledge when the pair attended school in Mexico in 2004.

"They were in a third-world country and they had to honor their culture," he said. "People don't have to do that here."

Ramzy Kilic, executive director of the Tampa chapter of the Council for American-Islamic Affairs criticized Heather's comments.

"The student should not have said that," he said. "If she had said, 'Why didn't you stand for the Pledge and act like an American?' that would have been a more-appropriate reaction."

Kizlic, WND has reported, successfully pressured CBS in 2007 to suspend a Christian television program that had been airing in the Tampa, Fla., market for four years.


"You have someone in the States who is able to enjoy our educational and health care systems, yet it's okay for them to be disrespectful, and it's not okay for my daughter to speak her mind," Mark Lawrence told the Tampa Tribune. "That's her First Amendment right. That's her freedom of speech."

Springstead principal Susan Duval said she stands behind Crognale's suspension of the girl, saying Heather violated the district's policy against bullying and harassment and was disciplined for her "atrocious" comment and not for telling the Muslim student to stand.

"It makes me ill," Duval said. "That is not what this school is about. These students should feel safe and secure here. We may have differences of opinion, but no student should have to tolerate harassment."

Principal Duval has experience with suspension herself, reported the Lakeland Ledger. In 2004, Duval was suspended for one day with pay and a three-paragraph reprimand added to her file for plagiarizing a widespread Internet document titled, "Everything I need to know I learned from Noah's Ark" for her commencement address. The Hernando County School Board's student code of conduct promises a "zero-grade, detention, in-school suspension" for offenders.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=108388

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 03:18 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

Garcia Bronco
08-31-2009, 03:20 PM
Fuck Tampa and fuck their schools.

ChiTown
08-31-2009, 03:21 PM
wow.

The term "FKD Up" comes to mind.

Garcia Bronco
08-31-2009, 03:21 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

I agree.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 03:23 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

Yup.

BucEyedPea
08-31-2009, 03:24 PM
**** Tampa and **** their schools.

Hey! :mad:

and Springhill isn't Tampa but more my neck of the woods.

BigRedChief
08-31-2009, 03:26 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.It's called Free Will. Just because you don't like her actions(I certaintly don't) doesn't mean she doesn't have the freedom to silently sit there.

vailpass
08-31-2009, 03:29 PM
I cannot for the life of me imagine living in a country in which I did not wish to be a citizen and fully participate in expressing my 100% allegiance to my country. What must it be like to have no true home?

Duck Dog
08-31-2009, 03:29 PM
The suspension was out of line. More Islamic cock sucking by our liberal teachers union. Nice job.

HonestChieffan
08-31-2009, 03:32 PM
It's called Free Will. Just because you don't like her actions(I certaintly don't) doesn't mean she doesn't have the freedom to silently sit there.

She could get off her ass and stand showing some respect. Lucky the Lawrence girl didnt help get her on her feet and take the damn thing off her head. This is the sort of liberal acceptance and political corrrectness that has England buried in people who hate everything England is but get a pass cause its politically correct.

Garcia Bronco
08-31-2009, 03:36 PM
Hey! :mad:

and Springhill isn't Tampa but more my neck of the woods.

I don't know where I got Tampa from. But I'll give Spring Hill the business as well.

Garcia Bronco
08-31-2009, 03:37 PM
She could get off her ass and stand showing some respect. Lucky the Lawrence girl didnt help get her on her feet and take the damn thing off her head. This is the sort of liberal acceptance and political corrrectness that has England buried in people who hate everything England is but get a pass cause its politically correct.

That would have been suspension worthy and worth a suspension.

Demonpenz
08-31-2009, 03:38 PM
My grandfather didn't fight for this country to give people to have someone not show respect

Direckshun
08-31-2009, 03:39 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

Bingo.

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2009, 03:40 PM
She could get off her ass and stand showing some respect. Lucky the Lawrence girl didnt help get her on her feet and take the damn thing off her head.I agree that people should stand (and shouldn't replace free with "Chiefs.") But I can't imagine forcing someone to stand; that would seem to run counter to the emblem you want to force her to respect.

blaise
08-31-2009, 03:45 PM
I'm a little surprised they let students wear anything on their head at all, even if it is religious in nature.

HonestChieffan
08-31-2009, 03:46 PM
I stand for the Canadian national anthem when its played at Royals stadium. Im not forced to. I just do it out of respect. Imagine the Olympics as the anthems are played and everone on their dead ass unless its their own.

Respect is a learned behavior. The girl was within her right to call the other one out and give her some good olf fashioned peer feedback.

Lots of teaching takes place that has zero to do with teachers and spineless administrators. The one who shoiuld be suspended is the one who created the issue in the first place.

petegz28
08-31-2009, 03:49 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

I agree.

alpha_omega
08-31-2009, 03:49 PM
5 days seems a little harsh...how about a warning or something like that.

petegz28
08-31-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm a little surprised they let students wear anything on their head at all, even if it is religious in nature.

You would be surprised how many companies will let religous attire be worn but not let you put "Merry Christmas" in your e-mail signature.

petegz28
08-31-2009, 03:50 PM
5 days seems a little harsh...how about a warning or something like that.

Very excessive for something that didn't involve violence or cheating. That's just where we want our kids...out of school for 5 days ...the guy is a class educator...not

jidar
08-31-2009, 03:59 PM
You people should take those republican stickers off of your bumpers and show some respect for the president.

No I'm not asking, I'm telling.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 04:01 PM
You people should take those republican stickers off of your bumpers and show some respect for the president.

No I'm not asking, I'm telling.

I've got my Obama Joker sticker, hows that for respect?

blaise
08-31-2009, 04:02 PM
Very excessive for something that didn't involve violence or cheating. That's just where we want our kids...out of school for 5 days ...the guy is a class educator...not

Well I wonder how accurate the quote is.

jidar
08-31-2009, 04:04 PM
I've got my Obama Joker sticker, hows that for respect?

Why the hostility?
I don't understand why I can't reasonably command you to do something against your beliefs without it being a big deal.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 04:08 PM
Why the hostility?
I don't understand why I can't reasonably command you to do something against your beliefs without it being a big deal.

No hostility given, i've already stated the girl had the right not to salute the flag and the girl telling her to do it should not be suspended.

Brock
08-31-2009, 04:13 PM
You people should take those republican stickers off of your bumpers and show some respect for the president.

No I'm not asking, I'm telling.

Yeah, because expecting people to show respect for the flag of this country is purely a republican characteristic.

tooge
08-31-2009, 04:14 PM
If I'm gonna be getting suspended for 10 days, that muslim girl is gonna be pulling her hajib out of her ass as soon as she is able to remove the screw that holds her hand over her heart during the pledge. But thats just me.

Amnorix
08-31-2009, 04:15 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

This.

Amnorix
08-31-2009, 04:16 PM
If I'm gonna be getting suspended for 10 days, that muslim girl is gonna be pulling her hajib out of her ass as soon as she is able to remove the screw that holds her hand over her heart during the pledge. But thats just me.

Then "just you" would rightfully be going before the judge beofre your 10 day suspension was even up, cuz "just you" ain't so bright.

Taco John
08-31-2009, 04:17 PM
If I was suspended for 10 days, I'd go backpacking...

jidar
08-31-2009, 04:17 PM
Yeah, because expecting people to show respect for the flag of this country is purely a republican characteristic.

here's the point

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Here's the top of your head.

Dave Lane
08-31-2009, 04:18 PM
If I'm gonna be getting suspended for 10 days, that muslim girl is gonna be pulling her hajib out of her ass as soon as she is able to remove the screw that holds her hand over her heart during the pledge. But thats just me.

Why do you care? I don't. I support your right to do the "respectful thing" and I support your right to fall asleep or scratch your sack. Big ****ing deal either way.

Brock
08-31-2009, 04:19 PM
here's the point

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Here's the top of your head.

Oh, I got your point with your moronic droolings about republican bumper stickers. Or did you forget what you wrote?

BY1401
08-31-2009, 04:26 PM
You people should take those republican stickers off of your bumpers and show some respect for the president.

No I'm not asking, I'm telling.

Sorry.

I didn't know we were pledging allegience to the president now.

memyselfI
08-31-2009, 04:26 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

This.

tooge
08-31-2009, 04:29 PM
Then "just you" would rightfully be going before the judge beofre your 10 day suspension was even up, cuz "just you" ain't so bright.

I wouldn't actually do anything other than think of her as the disrespectful POS that she is. My point was, if you are gonna get in trouble, make the crime fit the sentence. Then go backpacking.

Donger
08-31-2009, 04:32 PM
Why wouldn't she take part in the Pledge?

tooge
08-31-2009, 04:35 PM
Why wouldn't she take part in the Pledge?

maybe she cant speak english.

Donger
08-31-2009, 04:37 PM
maybe she cant speak english.

I guess. It boils down to simple good manners, IMO. I always stood (although I didn't hold my hand over my heart or recite the words) when the pledge was given. Once I got my green card, I did all three, however, even though I probably should not have.

orange
08-31-2009, 04:53 PM
Suspended ROTC student feels wronged
Springstead junior thinks five-day suspension wasn’t warranted for telling Muslim student to 'take that thing off your head.'

By TONY HOLT | Hernando Today

Published: August 28, 2009

Updated: 08/28/2009 09:56 pm

SPRING HILL - Heather Lawrence loves being in JROTC, loves her Marine Corps dad and loves her country.

On Wednesday, anger was the prevailing feeling in her heart when she noticed a student in another classroom had refused to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance. She also refused to recite it.

Heather, a junior at Springstead High School, glanced at the other students in the room, all of whom appeared uncomfortable, she said.

She saw her later in the day between class periods and told her, "Take that thing off your head and act like you're proud to be an American."

The student, whom Lawrence could not identify, was wearing a hijab, a head scarf or garment traditionally worn by Muslim women.

A teacher overheard Heather's statement and told two other teachers. The incident made its way to Assistant Principal Steve Crognale, who called the 16-year-old into his office Friday morning, she said.

He made her wait outside while he called her father, Mark Lawrence.

Crognale told him the school was going to suspend his daughter for five days.

"I said, 'That is absolutely ridiculous,'" recalled Lawrence, who would not repeat the expletives used during the phone conversation. "I thought it was very unfair."

He asked Crognale to explain his justification for suspending his daughter.

"He said it was based on the grounds that she made a threat," said Lawrence, who threw up his arms and shook his head.

He sat in his living room across from his daughter, who was dressed in her U.S. Army-issued uniform. She plans to attend basic training in the summer, return to Springstead for her senior year and pursue a career in the military.

Crognale, who did not return a message seeking comment, claimed the school's written policy allowed him to suspend her for up to 10 days if he so chose, Lawrence said.

When Heather's irate father pressed on and asked him to explain how her statement could be interpreted as a threat, Crognale "backed off" and said his daughter's statement "caused mental duress" for the student, he said.

That student never reported the incident, Lawrence said.

He conceded his daughter should have refrained from telling her to remove her hijab. Heather was less emphatic.

"I wish I didn't say, 'Take that thing off your head,'" she said. "Or maybe I shouldn't have said it loud enough for the teacher to hear it."

Her father, a former U.S. Marine, said he and his family have friends who are Iranian and African-American. It is a household that has sworn off racism of any kind, he said.

"The student should not have said that," said Ramzy Kilic, the executive director of the Tampa chapter of the Council for American-Islamic Affairs. "If she had said, 'Why didn't you stand for the Pledge and act like an American?' that would have been a more-appropriate reaction."

The Lawrence family lived in Cancun, Mexico, for six months in 2004. Both Heather, who was 12 at the time, and her sister attended a school where Spanish was the first language.

The students stood and recited their country's pledge. Heather and her sister stood, but did not speak because they didn't know the language, she said.

Both of them were expelled from the school, Heather said.

"They were in a third-world country and they had to honor their culture," her father said. "People don't have to do that here."

The original punishment issued by Crognale was five days. Mark Lawrence was under the impression Friday morning he had talked him down to three days. He returned to the school at 12:30 p.m. to pick up the paperwork and was told the original punishment still stood.

Heather Lawrence would have to remain at home for five school days because neither she nor her father would sign the agreement form. They refused to do so out of protest, they said. No threat was made. They insisted the school violated her First Amendment rights.

Lawrence has been suspended at least twice prior to Friday.

She was in the bathroom while another student smoked a cigarette a few feet away. A teacher searched her, found no contraband, but the school still suspended her, she said.

The second time occurred last year, when she missed some classes because of her JROTC commitments. She said she got permission from all of her teachers to miss class that day.

One of her teachers asked a student to go look for her. When she was not found, she reported her as an unexcused absence. She was suspended again.

"At Springstead, the answer to everything is to kick you out of school," Heather said.

On the agreement form that she and her father refused to sign, Crognale wrote, "The student yelled at another student in the hallway to take off her head covering because this is America."

He went on to write she had begun to "rant" during a conversation with another teacher. She was going to Iraq and because the girl "looked Middle Eastern that makes her an enemy," Crognale stated.

Lawrence said she never said those words to any teacher or to anyone else. The only Springstead employee she talked to about the incident prior to her suspension was Crognale and one of the school's coaches.

In an apparent reference to her previous suspensions, Crognale also wrote, "Heather had promised to change her behavior this year."

A call to Principal Susan Duvall was not returned Friday.

It is the second time in less than three months that Springstead has been involved in a First Amendment controversy. School administrators made last year's valedictorian rewrite her graduation speech because they felt it painted the school in a negative light.

The student agreed to rewrite it, but argued the school was being unreasonable and claimed at least one administrator threatened her. The story received national attention.

Heather's suspension means she might miss up to 18 weeks of JROTC activities, including a military ball and some program-sponsored community service.

"That really stinks because it is the only thing I do in school," she said.

She said her friends, relatives, fellow JROTC students and even a few school staffers were "absolutely livid" she was suspended over her comments.

"I'm not one to be a racist," Heather said.

http://www2.hernandotoday.com/content/2009/aug/28/suspended-rotc-student-feels-wronged/news/


WorldNetDaily - We Delete - You Decide

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 05:02 PM
Why wouldn't she take part in the Pledge?
I don't know. She has her reasons.

orange
08-31-2009, 05:03 PM
Student did stand for pledge, school staff says

By KYLE MARTIN | Hernando Today

Published: August 31, 2009

Updated: 04:11 pm

School staff on Monday poked a hole in the story of a student suspended for calling out a Muslim student who didn't recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

Contrary to the suspended student's allegations, the Muslim girl did stand for the pledge, but did not recite the words, said Assistant Superintendent Sonya Jackson.

"The information shared by Ms. Lawrence was untrue," Jackson said.

Jackson was referring to Heather Lawrence, a JROTC student at Springstead High School. The junior confronted another Springstead student last Wednesday when she said the girl did not stand or recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

When Lawrence saw the girl in the hallway later that day, she told the girl, "Take that thing off your head and act like you're proud to be an American."

At the time, the unidentified girl was wearing a traditional Muslim head scarf called a hijab.

Lawrence's statement was overheard by a teacher and it was eventually reported to the principal. She was suspended five days for "threatening" the student.

Jackson said Monday that she met with Mr. Lawrence and was able to bridge any misunderstandings. The suspension has been reduced to three days. She also said that an investigation at Springstead revealed that the girl did stand out of respect.

Mr. Lawrence said later Monday that the school is backpedaling now and "trying to put a spin on it."

The results of the investigation were shown to him, but he still believes his daughter's statement that the girl was not standing. He believes school officials are changing their story because of the "unwanted attention" this is attracting nationally.

"No one will ever admit to this, but they want to push it under the rug," he said.

Since the story was published Saturday, Mr. Lawrence has received calls of support from across the country. Everyone feels that we have freedoms and liberties in this country, Mr. Lawrence said.

He has also been contacted by a lawyer, but Mr. Lawrence does not plan to pursue a lawsuit. For him, reducing the suspension length is justification enough.

Asked if a heart-to-heart talk between the two girls was considered, Jackson said that was a suggestion today, but it would be up to the school to arrange. Messages left Monday and Friday for Springstead Principal Susan Duval were not returned.

http://james4america.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/update-student-suspended-for-asking-muslim-student-to-be-proud-to-be-an-american/

HonestChieffan
08-31-2009, 05:51 PM
Of course once the cats out of the bag, make sure to call the girl a liar. Nice move by libtard administrators.

Mulims want to be hear then they can fit in. Period.

Donger
08-31-2009, 05:54 PM
Well, if she's an American citizen, I can't think of a reason (besides teenage angst) why she wouldn't recite the Pledge.

bkkcoh
08-31-2009, 05:58 PM
:rockon:PBJ:toast::bravo:

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 05:59 PM
Well, if she's an American citizen, I can't think of a reason (besides teenage angst) why she wouldn't recite the Pledge.
Maybe she's not on-board with current health care reform proposals.

Donger
08-31-2009, 06:01 PM
Maybe she's not on-board with current health care reform proposals.

That's politics, not country.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 06:04 PM
That's politics, not country.
Not reciting the pledge is a quick way to protest on the micro scale. It shows dissent and it certainly gets attention.

Donger
08-31-2009, 06:08 PM
Not reciting the pledge is a quick way to protest on the micro scale. It shows dissent and it certainly gets attention.

Maybe not doing what is required during our national anthem (albeit a horrendous rendition of it)?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4FD-j_Dqq8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4FD-j_Dqq8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

KILLER_CLOWN
08-31-2009, 06:36 PM
Maybe not doing what is required during our national anthem (albeit a horrendous rendition of it)?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4FD-j_Dqq8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4FD-j_Dqq8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I hurt badly after sitting through that vid.

vailpass
08-31-2009, 06:39 PM
Then "just you" would rightfully be going before the judge beofre your 10 day suspension was even up, cuz "just you" ain't so bright.

Lighten up Francis, you know full well what the guy is saying.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 07:07 PM
I'm not sure that any of the parties involved really did the right thing. The student should have at least stood if she didn't. The ROTC student should have addressed it in a much more respectful manner, and the school should have resolved the matter in a way that did not result in a week long suspension.

I witnessed a somewhat similar situation last week. I was in line at a McDonalds drive-thru, and the car in front of me was at the pay window. I had my window down. I heard the woman in the car in front of me berating the cashier yelling, "You are in America. Speak English." She then drove away without paying or taking her food.

When I went up to pay, the cashier was hispanic, and her english was excellent. She had a strong accent, but there were absolutely no communication issues. I apologized on behalf of the previous customer, as this woman was visibly upset. When I left, I saw the woman at a stoplight waiting to turn left and exit the parking lot. I pulled up into the lane next to her and stopped short so that I was next to her window and yelled for her to roll it down. She wouldn't do it, so I let her know what a coward she was to berate a cashier who had no choice but to stand there but not have the courage to face me.

The way I see it, the employee was almost certainly here legally. She had a job, and she spoke English. I don't know what more you could ask. As an aside, I was surprised to see that the bitchy woman had a very "stereotypical liberal woman" look to her. She was in her late forties, had very short, chopped red hair and tacky dangly costume-jewelry earrings. I don't know that she was a liberal, but she looked right out of central casting. I don't know who I expected to see, probably some white trash yokel, but I was not expecting her to look the way she did.

BigRedChief
08-31-2009, 07:18 PM
I don't know. She has her reasons.
And she doesn't have to explain a damn thing to you or me. You can't make people proud of their country. You either are or not.

This is a fundamental right, in the same vein as being to stand up and publically say Obama sucks and not be thrown in jail. It is free speech.

Much like allowing the KKK to march. We may not agree with their views but they have a right to express those views.

Thig Lyfe
08-31-2009, 07:24 PM
TAKE THAT GAT DAMN TOWEL OFF YER HEAD AND PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE GAT DAMN FLAG OR I'LL WHOOP YER BIN LADEN LOVIN ASS!!!! WOOOOOOOOOO

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 07:26 PM
And she doesn't have to explain a damn thing to you or me. You can't make people proud of their country. You either are or not.

This is a fundamental right, in the same vein as being to stand up and publically say Obama sucks and not be thrown in jail. It is free speech.

Much like allowing the KKK to march. We may not agree with their views but they have a right to express those views.

You have rights in this country as long as they don't involve praying to a Christian God in school.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 07:27 PM
The way I see it, the employee was almost certainly here legally. She had a job, and she spoke English. I don't know what more you could ask. As an aside, I was surprised to see that the bitchy woman had a very "stereotypical liberal woman" look to her. She was in her late forties, had very short, chopped red hair and tacky dangly costume-jewelry earrings. I don't know that she was a liberal, but she looked right out of central casting. I don't know who I expected to see, probably some white trash yokel, but I was not expecting her to look the way she did.
I wasn't aware that liberals or conservatives had certain looks.

Thig Lyfe
08-31-2009, 07:29 PM
You have rights in this country as long as they don't involve praying to a Christian God in school.

OMG.

There is nothing preventing anybody from praying in school.

There IS something preventing school administrations from REQUIRING prayer from its students in any way.

As it should be.

Saul Good
08-31-2009, 07:42 PM
I wasn't aware that liberals or conservatives had certain looks.

Then you are functionally retarded.

Captain Obvious
08-31-2009, 07:46 PM
I agree that people should stand (and shouldn't replace free with "Chiefs.") But I can't imagine forcing someone to stand; that would seem to run counter to the emblem you want to force her to respect.

Home of the Free?

I did not get this memo.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 07:48 PM
Muslims should be required to take the hijab off in a public school.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 07:48 PM
OMG.

There is nothing preventing anybody from praying in school.

There IS something preventing school administrations from REQUIRING prayer from its students in any way.

As it should be.

Spot on. Nothing should (nor does) prevent you from praying.

You just trumped his victim card. Well done. LMAO

Muslims should be required to take the hijab off in a public school.

Out of curiosity, should Jews also be forbidden to wear their yarmulkes, or Christians prevented from wearing symbols of their faith in a public school?

Sully
08-31-2009, 07:49 PM
Well, if she's an American citizen, I can't think of a reason (besides teenage angst) why she wouldn't recite the Pledge.

Could be religious reasons. I don't know about Islam, but there are even some Christian sects that see that as idolotry.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 07:49 PM
Then you are functionally retarded.
What are these looks?

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 07:53 PM
Spot on. Nothing should (nor does) prevent you from praying.

You just trumped his victim card. Well done. LMAO



Out of curiosity, should Jews also be forbidden to wear their yarmulkes, or Christians prevented from wearing symbols of their faith in a public school?

I never saw a Jew wearing a yarmulke in a public school. Crosses are not ostentatious. A Hijab is making a belligerent religious statement, IMO.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 07:53 PM
Could be religious reasons. I don't know about Islam, but there are even some Christian sects that see that as idolotry.

Quakers are one of those groups, IIRC.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 07:56 PM
I never saw a Jew wearing a yarmulke in a public school. Crosses are not ostentatious. A Hijab is making a belligerent religious statement, IMO.

You didn't? I did. However, it's not necessary for you to have seen one to have an opinion. How many downs of pro football have you played? You likely have an opinion on that. :shrug:

Crosses are not ostentatious? They certainly can be. Then I suppose only ostentatious hijabs should be forbidden, since that's where you are setting the bar. IMO, most of them look very non-ostentatious...rather drab, AFAICS. :shrug:

A Hijab is no more a belligerent religious statement than a yarmulke or a Shaker/Quakers headdress or hat.

jAZ
08-31-2009, 07:58 PM
No need to suspend the girl. OTOH, there was nothing wrong with the Muslim student for not participating in the pledge.

Interestingly, the suspended girl's father agrees that "People don't have to do that (honor a nation's culture) here."

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 08:00 PM
Crosses are not ostentatious? They certainly can be.

I suppose if Madonna is wearing one, yeah.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 08:03 PM
I suppose if Madonna is wearing one, yeah.

OK, so what about Jews wearing yarmulkes or quakers/shakers who attend public school?

Should only "ostentatious" religious items be banned?

Who gets to decide what is "ostentatious"?

Then there's that pesky freedom of religion thing...

(Yes, I'm no believer, but I am a strong defender of anyone's right to worship as they please. I only take issue when they attempt to legislate I have to live by their beliefs).

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 08:04 PM
OK, so what about Jews wearing yarmulkes or quakers/shakers?

I've never seen it. I've never even met a quaker.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 08:06 PM
Then there's that pesky freedom of religion thing...



Right, but your a moonbat, free expression of religion only applies to religions that hate America.

Christians and Jews are not allowed to make public displays.

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 08:08 PM
I've never seen it. I've never even met a quaker.


However, it's not necessary for you to have seen one to have an opinion. How many downs of pro football have you played? You likely have an opinion on that.

Must be a horrible handicap to be unable to imagine or express an opinion about something you've never directly experienced.

I've never personally experienced Nazis shipping my family off in railroad cars, but I've got a pretty strong negative opinion about it. :shrug:

Right, but your a moonbat, free expression of religion only applies to religions that hate America.

Christians and Jews are not allowed to make public displays.

And as usual, confronted on a point you don't want to discuss, you result to childish name-calling.

And you couldn't be more wrong....again. I don't give a damn if someone wants to put a Creche or a Menorah on public property. Hell, put up a Festivus pole for all I care. Doesn't bother me. :shrug:

pr_capone
08-31-2009, 08:08 PM
The one who shoiuld be suspended is the one who created the issue in the first place.

So you are saying that the Muslim girl should be suspended for not standing and removing her hijab?

Or are you saying the administrators of the school should be suspended for turning this into a big deal where it did not need to be?

If #1, then you are DEAD wrong.

Florida
“The Pledge of Allegiance to the flag shall be recited at the beginning of the day in each public elementary, middle, and high school in the state. Each student shall be informed by posting a notice in a conspicuous place that the student has the right not to participate in reciting the Pledge. Upon written request by his or her parent, the student must be excused from reciting the Pledge.” Fla. Stat. Ann. §1003.44 (2005); see also Fla. Stat. Ann. §1002.20(12) (2005) (reiterating the right of students not to participate in the recitation of the Pledge).

She has every legal right to not say the pledge or stand. The hijab thing is a religious thing and SHOULD be allowed because there is a separation between church and state.

Schools are state funded and whether you like it or not, Islam is a religion.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 08:12 PM
Must be a horrible handicap to be unable to imagine or express an opinion about something you've never directly experienced.

I've never personally experienced Nazis shipping my family off in railroad cars, but I've got a pretty strong negative opinion about it. :shrug:



And as usual, confronted on a point you don't want to discuss, you result to childish name-calling.

And you couldn't be more wrong....again. I don't give a damn if someone wants to put a Creche or a Menorah on public property. Hell, put up a Festivus pole for all I care. Doesn't bother me. :shrug:

:ZZZ:

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 08:14 PM
:ZZZ:

Same old shts prayer. Should've known. ROFL

I'll take care of your reply for you.



:deevee: or :drool: or :rolleyes:

orange
08-31-2009, 08:15 PM
http://www.becketfund.org/UserFiles/Image/C11.%20Hats%20(2)_sm.JPG

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 08:15 PM
Same old shts prayer. Should've known. ROFL


Oh, and I'll take care of your reply for you.

:deevee: or :drool:

:nosmilie:

Adept Havelock
08-31-2009, 08:16 PM
http://www.becketfund.org/UserFiles/Image/C11.%20Hats%20(2)_sm.JPG

Heh.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 08:24 PM
Heh.

That's almost as impressive as when Red posted a picture of somebody holding a swastika and said it was "proof" that what Nancy Pelosi said was true.

:drool:

Well that settles it then, in Moonbatville.

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2009, 09:20 PM
We had a classmate in 6th grade who didn't stand or say the Pledge. I can't recall his religion, but essentially he couldn't say the Pledge or observe many of our holidays. Dammit, I can't recall what his religion was, other than it was ostensibly Christian.

I want to say he was a Jehovah's Witness, but that could be wrong.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 09:21 PM
We had a classmate in 6th grade who didn't stand or say the Pledge. I can't recall his religion, but essentially he couldn't say the Pledge or observe many of our holidays. Dammit, I can't recall what his religion was, other than it was ostensibly Christian.

I want to say he was a Jehovah's Witness, but that could be wrong.

We had Jehovah's Witnesses too. They would get up and wait in the hallway. That was fine with me, they smelled real bad.

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2009, 09:23 PM
We had Jehovah's Witnesses too. They would get up and wait in the hallway.Joseph didn't. He sat in his seat and waited for us to finish. I always felt a bit badly for him, as he didn't really get to do anything fun. His clothes were pretty weird as well.

Back to the topic at hand: Was he being disrespectful? Should he be forced to stand and say the Pledge?

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 09:25 PM
Joseph didn't. He sat in his seat and waited for us to finish. I always felt a bit badly for him, as he didn't really get to do anything fun. His clothes were pretty weird as well.

Back to the topic at hand: Was he being disrespectful? Should he be forced to stand and say the Pledge?

It didn't bother me that they didn't. But that was way back when---

These Muslims are altogether another issue. I don't like them, and I don't trust them. I don't think anything they do is benign or altruistic.

Perhaps she should get up and wait in the hallway, too.

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2009, 09:25 PM
Well, if she's an American citizen, I can't think of a reason (besides teenage angst) why she wouldn't recite the Pledge.I would guess her (or her parents') personal beliefs might play a role. I don't agree with them, but I can certainly "think of" that reason.

Reaper16
08-31-2009, 09:26 PM
These Muslims are altogether another issue. I don't like them, and I don't trust them.
LMAO

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2009, 09:26 PM
It didn't bother me that they didn't. But that was way back when---

These Muslims are altogether another issue. I don't like them, and I don't trust them. I don't think anything they do is benign or altruistic.

Perhaps she should get up and wait in the hallway, too.That seems to be a different line of reasoning altogether.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2009, 09:30 PM
That seems to be a different line of reasoning altogether.

I think their behavior and history speaks for itself.

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2009, 09:35 PM
It boils down to simple good manners, IMO.. I agree. "Take that thing off your head..." seems to be evidence that her manners could be improved.

tooge
09-01-2009, 08:34 AM
actually, it boils down to the golden rule for me. Do unto others... I've lived overseas, been the minority. I still made it a priority when in public to be polite and follow local and national customs and traditions. I wouldn't want to offend anyone. Thats what this is about. Why not just stand, say the pledge, and carry on. If I were in Iran and they all stood and said some saying (again, this is not a prayer) before a soccer game I was attending, I would do my best to fit in. Now, if one doesn't know the laguage, that is an entirely different issue. Why do people go out of their way to make it clear they are different, then bitch when they aren't treated the same?

vailpass
09-01-2009, 10:11 AM
Reason #5987654 that I send my children to private school where it is still expected to show respect to flag and country, where respecting your fellow man means showing respect for the country in which you stand.

Ultra Peanut
09-01-2009, 11:00 AM
If I'm gonna be getting suspended for 10 days, that muslim girl is gonna be pulling her hajib out of her ass as soon as she is able to remove the screw that holds her hand over her heart during the pledge. But thats just me.That's healthy.

vailpass
09-01-2009, 11:04 AM
That's healthy.

Oh sweet irony.

tooge
09-01-2009, 11:05 AM
Oh sweet irony.

no kidding

Reaper16
09-01-2009, 11:08 AM
Oh sweet irony.

no kidding
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e57/Thereaper16/Residentfalcon-1.gif

vailpass
09-01-2009, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE=Reaper16[/QUOTE]

Responding with some random video clip? How old are you, 17?

Reaper16
09-01-2009, 11:29 AM
Responding with some random video clip? How old are you, 17?
What's worse is you thinking that any of your posts merit a response that is not either juvenile or scornful.

vailpass
09-01-2009, 11:34 AM
What's worse is you thinking that any of your posts merit a response that is not either juvenile or scornful.

TinkyWinky You are tho right girlfriend!

Saulbadguy
09-01-2009, 11:45 AM
"Take that thing off your head and act like you're proud to be an American," Lawrence told her. "

Come on, now.

vailpass
09-01-2009, 11:51 AM
"Take that thing off your head and act like you're proud to be an American," Lawrence told her. "

Come on, now.

I know. She should have just knocked that thing off her head. :evil:

Saulbadguy
09-01-2009, 11:56 AM
I know. She should have just knocked that thing off her head. :evil:

Only if it was a ridiculous looking cowboy hat. :thumb:

Sully
09-01-2009, 12:00 PM
Okay, I'll start the firestorm, mostly because I've been round and round n this discussion, before...

I don't recite the pledge of allegiance.

I love my country. I love the charity within it, a good portion of the people who live in it, and the opportunities it presents to me and people from a wide variety of backgrounds and cultures.

So why don't I recite the pledge?

I dislike the "under God" contained within. In other discussions about this, I've been assured that it's a matter of "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion" to have those words in the pledge. I have been told repeatedly that if I dislike it, then simply don't say it. I've been told that it is definitely not something that is coercive to others to recite, and they are free to refrain while others say the pledge. I've been told that it is not a tool that could be used to separate the majority of people from the few who disagree.

Now, I see no evidence that this particular issue has anything to do with the "under God" line. That's not to say those aren't the reasons, but I'm not going to jump to that conclusion. However, for whatever reason, this student decided not to take part in the pledge (though, according to at least one report, she actually did stand during the pledge, which I believe she should've as a matter of respect).

But look at the reaction it is eliciting within this thread. Wishing of violence on a young person, or, at the very least seeing her as a villain in this story because A) she disagrees with something that is ultimately a benign recitation (in the eyes of the vast majority of students), and, B) because she is obviously of a differing religion than the majority. A student confronts her about it hours later. That confrontation is "what is right," while the girl who didn't take part was doing exactly the same thing in standing up for her right to refrain, but is seen as "what is wrong."

It's just interesting to me to see the inconsistency in the argument.

The first reply in this thread was the best. The ROTC girl should not have been suspended, if the facts we see are the whole story, but the girl who didn't take part in the pledge did nothing wrong, either. Nothing at all.

Donger
09-01-2009, 12:01 PM
Okay, I'll start the firestorm, mostly because I've been round and round n this discussion, before...

I don't recite the pledge of allegiance.

I love my country. I love the charity within it, a good portion of the people who live in it, and the opportunities it presents to me and people from a wide variety of backgrounds and cultures.

So why don't I recite the pledge?

I dislike the "under God" contained within. In other discussions about this, I've been assured that it's a matter of "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion" to have those words in the pledge. I have been told repeatedly that if I dislike it, then simply don't say it. I've been told that it is definitely not something that is coercive to others to recite, and they are free to refrain while others say the pledge. I've been told that it is not a tool that could be used to separate the majority of people from the few who disagree.

Now, I see no evidence that this particular issue has anything to do with the "under God" line. That's not to say those aren't the reasons, but I'm not going to jump to that conclusion. However, for whatever reason, this student decided not to take part in the pledge (though, according to at least one report, she actually did stand during the pledge, which I believe she should've as a matter of respect).

But look at the reaction it is eliciting within this thread. Wishing of violence on a young person, or, at the very least seeing her as a villain in this story because A) she disagrees with something that is ultimately a benign recitation (in the eyes of the vast majority of students), and, B) because she is obviously of a differing religion than the majority. A student confronts her about it hours later. That confrontation is "what is right," while the girl who didn't take part was doing exactly the same thing in standing up for her right to refrain, but is seen as "what is wrong."

It's just interesting to me to see the inconsistency in the argument.

The first reply in this thread was the best. The ROTC girl should not have been suspended, if the facts we see are the whole story, but the girl who didn't take part in the pledge did nothing wrong, either. Nothing at all.

Why don't you say the Pledge, and just leave the "under God" part out?

I do.

Sully
09-01-2009, 12:02 PM
As an aside, I was surprised to see that the bitchy woman had a very "stereotypical liberal woman" look to her.

Wow.
I'm sorry I missed this particular piece of stupid earlier. I would've gotten a good laugh.

Sully
09-01-2009, 12:03 PM
Why don't you say the Pledge, and just leave the "under God" part out?

I do.

What's the difference?

Swanman
09-01-2009, 12:06 PM
Okay, I'll start the firestorm, mostly because I've been round and round n this discussion, before...

I don't recite the pledge of allegiance.

I love my country. I love the charity within it, a good portion of the people who live in it, and the opportunities it presents to me and people from a wide variety of backgrounds and cultures.

So why don't I recite the pledge?

I dislike the "under God" contained within. In other discussions about this, I've been assured that it's a matter of "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion" to have those words in the pledge. I have been told repeatedly that if I dislike it, then simply don't say it. I've been told that it is definitely not something that is coercive to others to recite, and they are free to refrain while others say the pledge. I've been told that it is not a tool that could be used to separate the majority of people from the few who disagree.

Now, I see no evidence that this particular issue has anything to do with the "under God" line. That's not to say those aren't the reasons, but I'm not going to jump to that conclusion. However, for whatever reason, this student decided not to take part in the pledge (though, according to at least one report, she actually did stand during the pledge, which I believe she should've as a matter of respect).

But look at the reaction it is eliciting within this thread. Wishing of violence on a young person, or, at the very least seeing her as a villain in this story because A) she disagrees with something that is ultimately a benign recitation (in the eyes of the vast majority of students), and, B) because she is obviously of a differing religion than the majority. A student confronts her about it hours later. That confrontation is "what is right," while the girl who didn't take part was doing exactly the same thing in standing up for her right to refrain, but is seen as "what is wrong."

It's just interesting to me to see the inconsistency in the argument.

The first reply in this thread was the best. The ROTC girl should not have been suspended, if the facts we see are the whole story, but the girl who didn't take part in the pledge did nothing wrong, either. Nothing at all.

I always recited the pledge, but really, what's the point? Making a declaration to a piece of cloth when you are 10 years old doesn't necessarily change your actions in your life outside of the classroom and when you enter adulthood. Sure, it's a pretty decent symbolic gesture, but nothing that is going to change the world.

Donger
09-01-2009, 12:07 PM
What's the difference?

Well, I'm guessing that your objection is the "under God" part. Is it not?

Sully
09-01-2009, 12:08 PM
I always recited the pledge, but really, what's the point? Making a declaration to a piece of cloth when you are 10 years old doesn't necessarily change your actions in your life outside of the classroom and when you enter adulthood. Sure, it's a pretty decent symbolic gesture, but nothing that is going to change the world.

I agree.
I love the phrase, "When you pray, move your feet."

I think something similar would apply, here.
When you "pledge your allegiance, move your feet."

There is far to much importance, IMO, placed on a scripted speech given to the flag daily.

vailpass
09-01-2009, 12:09 PM
Wow.
I'm sorry I missed this particular piece of stupid earlier. I would've gotten a good laugh.

Feel free to lighten up a little. If they can't pull a needle out of your sphincter with a tractor you probably need to loosen up.

Sully
09-01-2009, 12:11 PM
Well, I'm guessing that your objection is the "under God" part. Is it not?

Yes. I stated that as clearly as I could. I'm sorry you still had to guess after I posted that. So what's the difference in picking a choosing which parts of the pledge I like and reciting just those parts, or simply not reading the script, at all. It has no actual bearing on my feelings for my country.

Sully
09-01-2009, 12:13 PM
Feel free to lighten up a little. If they can't pull a needle out of your sphincter with a tractor you probably need to loosen up.

I'm plenty lightened up.
Like I said, I laughed.
But I suspect you weren't making a joke.

...and I can't imagine any good coming from putting a needle in my sphincter. I would imagine people who were into ass play would want something a little more substantial, wouldn't you?

Swanman
09-01-2009, 12:13 PM
Yes. I stated that as clearly as I could. I'm sorry you still had to guess after I posted that. So what's the difference in picking a choosing which parts of the pledge I like and reciting just those parts, or simply not reading the script, at all. It has no actual bearing on my feelings for my country.

There you go, looking at the big picture. Shame on you for that. :p

Donger
09-01-2009, 12:21 PM
Yes. I stated that as clearly as I could. I'm sorry you still had to guess after I posted that. So what's the difference in picking a choosing which parts of the pledge I like and reciting just those parts, or simply not reading the script, at all. It has no actual bearing on my feelings for my country.

For me, it is because the "under God" part was added during the Cold War and because I do not believe that we are one nation, under God.

I don't have any issue with the rest of it. In fact, I agree with it.

So, I choose to leave those parts in.

As to it just being a script, it is. It's just a pledge. Not unlike some sermons and prayers.

Sully
09-01-2009, 12:24 PM
For me, it is because the "under God" part was added during the Cold War and because I do not believe that we are one nation, under God.

I don't have any issue with the rest of it. In fact, I agree with it.

So, I choose to leave those parts in.

As to it just being a script, it is. It's just a pledge. Not unlike some sermons and prayers.

Then we are pretty close to being on the same page.

I agree that we should love the country, we should work to be one nation, and we that the flag represents a republic.

Earthling
09-01-2009, 07:13 PM
I have zero problem with anyone declining to say the pledge...although I always participate in the rote recital of it myself.

Earthling
09-01-2009, 07:15 PM
As to it just being a script, it is. It's just a pledge. Not unlike some sermons and prayers.

"Just a pledge" seems to trivialize what a pledge is. A pledge to me is your word. Definitely not a trivial thing.

Iowanian
09-01-2009, 07:19 PM
Free speech goes both ways.

If the hibjab stayed on and she expressed her speech by sitting during the pledge, she should be entitled to speak her mind to the girl about it.

It doesnt' sound like any threat was made. It's bullshit.

Otter
09-02-2009, 09:15 AM
Free speech goes both ways.

If the hibjab stayed on and she expressed her speech by sitting during the pledge, she should be entitled to speak her mind to the girl about it.

It doesnt' sound like any threat was made. It's bullshit.

But she was muslim you cruel bastard!!!

Inspector
09-02-2009, 09:18 AM
I've never seen it. I've never even met a quaker.

They make good oats.

stevieray
09-02-2009, 09:51 AM
You don't want to recite the pledge...big deal. I wouldn;t want someone to recite it if they didn't have any allegiance to the US.
You don't want to say "under God"...big deal. God is still God regardless.

The only caveat I have is don't be disrespectful if you've put yourself in a sitution where other's traditions are commonplace.

KC native
09-02-2009, 10:12 AM
You don't want to recite the pledge...big deal. I wouldn;t want someone to recite it if they didn't have any allegiance to the US.
You don't want to say "under God"...big deal. God is still dog Backwards.

The only caveat I have is don't be disrespectful if you've put yourself in a sitution where other's traditions are commonplace.

FYP

stevieray
09-02-2009, 10:16 AM
FYP


Fleecing Your Proprieter?

KC native
09-02-2009, 10:30 AM
Fleecing Your Proprieter?

what's a proprieter?