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View Full Version : Chiefs Overall Evaluation of our 2009 Draft picks.


chiefsfan1963
08-31-2009, 10:29 PM
Jackson seems to be the real deal. How about the rest of our picks?

I would love to hear what our insightful posters takes are.
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doomy3
08-31-2009, 10:31 PM
I'm going to wait until they actually play a regular season game or two to make any sort of evaluation.

Mr. Arrowhead
08-31-2009, 10:34 PM
I actually am liking what i see out of Quentin Lawrence as a WR. He is a project, but he seems like he has gotten better each week.

Just Passin' By
08-31-2009, 10:34 PM
I'm going to wait until they actually play a regular season game or two to make any sort of evaluation.

You rebel, that's just crazy talk.

DaneMcCloud
08-31-2009, 10:40 PM
I'm going to wait until they actually play a regular season game or two to make any sort of evaluation.

Shocker.

I'm sure you're waiting with baited breath for the arrival of Washington, Brown and Magee.

Tribal Warfare
08-31-2009, 10:50 PM
Alex Magee looks like a potential solid starter too

doomy3
08-31-2009, 10:55 PM
Shocker.

I'm sure you're waiting with baited breath for the arrival of Washington, Brown and Magee.

I think Magee will be a valuable player for us, yes. Washington could as well.

Sorry I'm not ready to make evaluations after limited playing time in meaningless preseason games.

wazu
08-31-2009, 10:57 PM
I actually am liking what i see out of Quentin Lawrence as a WR. He is a project, but he seems like he has gotten better each week.

He's the Wes Welker of our offense. Look for 1,000 yards and 3 TDs.

DaneMcCloud
08-31-2009, 10:58 PM
I think Magee will be a valuable player for us, yes. Washington could as well.

Sorry I'm not ready to make evaluations after limited playing time in meaningless preseason games.

There were better choices to be made.

There was no reason to spend the Chiefs first two draft choices on the same position, especially when they signed a $63 million dollar QB that needed protection.

Tyson Jackson and Alex Magee protect no one. And certainly not anyone worth $63 million.

Donald Washington? What, Flowers, Carr and Leggett weren't already on the roster? And Colin Brown over Jamon Meredith?

Face it: There was a gross misjudgment of talent, both on the Chiefs existing roster and in the 2009 NFL Draft.

DaneMcCloud
08-31-2009, 10:59 PM
He's the Wes Welker of our offense. Look for 1,000 yards and 3 TDs.

Over three years

rambleonthruthefog
09-01-2009, 12:00 AM
There were better choices to be made.

There was no reason to spend the Chiefs first two draft choices on the same position, especially when they signed a $63 million dollar QB that needed protection.

Tyson Jackson and Alex Magee protect no one. And certainly not anyone worth $63 million.

Donald Washington? What, Flowers, Carr and Leggett weren't already on the roster? And Colin Brown over Jamon Meredith?

Face it: There was a gross misjudgment of talent, both on the Chiefs existing roster and in the 2009 NFL Draft.


what are you? a broken record? also, i'm not sure that actually qualifies as an evaluation.

wazu
09-01-2009, 12:12 AM
Over three years

BOOOOOOOOOOOO

DaneMcCloud
09-01-2009, 12:30 AM
what are you? a broken record? also, i'm not sure that actually qualifies as an evaluation.

What have YOU got to say, FuckFace?

Let's hear it.

Hootie
09-01-2009, 12:50 AM
What have YOU got to say, ****Face?

Let's hear it.

These are YOUR opinions...we get it.

Hey...

Suddenly you don't seem to be so upset about Jackson at #3.

Why is that?

He certainly looks like he might be something special.

Maybe the executive of the decade might know a thing or two about football, no?

DaneMcCloud
09-01-2009, 01:00 AM
Why is that?

He certainly looks like he might be something special.

Maybe the executive of the decade might know a thing or two about football, no?

Why? Because I have absolutely no control over the Chiefs draft choices.

Would I have chosen someone different? Yes. But that's over.

But FUCK, why draft another defensive end when you have such glaring holes on the offensive line? I mean fuck, Hootie! Did you see how poorly the offensive line has performed the past two years?

Okay, if we get past Magee (which to me is a mistake - either one or the other. Ty Jackson or Magee - not both). Donald Washington? What? Aren't Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr & Chiefs rookie of the year, Maurice Leggett set? I mean, WTF?

And then, to top it off, they PASS on Jamon Meredith (Packers) for Colin Brown? A guy that didn't even have a profile at NFL.com on draft day? A guy that was rated at #58 overall among tackles? A guy that immediately proved he couldn't handle the tackle spot in pads and had to be moved to guard?

Come on, Hootie. Even YOU have to admit that a few of us around here knew the fucking score.

And Pioli and Haley are paying the price.

CrazyPhuD
09-01-2009, 01:07 AM
Well the only way they can defend this....and I'm not saying by any means that still should have been what they do, is if they legitimately feel they got the best players available and are playing not for this year but for 2-3 years down the road. The problem is, if they did that, why the fuck did they sign cassel to a long term contract. SHould have just franchised him next year if he survived.

I agree there are HUGE questionmarks, but I'm also willing to hope that the personal department of the chiefs knows a thing or two about football. This season is a wash and we all knew it would be, the question is, what position will we be in to start next season?

Mecca
09-01-2009, 01:09 AM
Well the only way they can defend this....and I'm not saying by any means that still should have been what they do, is if they legitimately feel they got the best players available and are playing not for this year but for 2-3 years down the road. The problem is, if they did that, why the fuck did they sign cassel to a long term contract. SHould have just franchised him next year if he survived.

I agree there are HUGE questionmarks, but I'm also willing to hope that the personal department of the chiefs knows a thing or two about football. This season is a wash and we all knew it would be, the question is, what position will we be in to start next season?

Yea a problem with that is in 2 years if this line is like this, Cassel may be ruined by then.

Direckshun
09-01-2009, 01:28 AM
Round 1: Terrance Cody

Round 2: Pass rusher

Round 2: Pass rusher

Round 3: Right tackle

Round 4: Interior Line

Round 5: Interior Line

Hootie
09-01-2009, 02:16 AM
Why? Because I have absolutely no control over the Chiefs draft choices.

Would I have chosen someone different? Yes. But that's over.

But ****, why draft another defensive end when you have such glaring holes on the offensive line? I mean ****, Hootie! Did you see how poorly the offensive line has performed the past two years?

Okay, if we get past Magee (which to me is a mistake - either one or the other. Ty Jackson or Magee - not both). Donald Washington? What? Aren't Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr & Chiefs rookie of the year, Maurice Leggett set? I mean, WTF?

And then, to top it off, they PASS on Jamon Meredith (Packers) for Colin Brown? A guy that didn't even have a profile at NFL.com on draft day? A guy that was rated at #58 overall among tackles? A guy that immediately proved he couldn't handle the tackle spot in pads and had to be moved to guard?

Come on, Hootie. Even YOU have to admit that a few of us around here knew the ****ing score.

And Pioli and Haley are paying the price.

All I've read over the past few years from the Mecca's and the Dane's and the draft gurus was BPA...BPA...BPA...

Well...Alex Magee and Donald Washington, apparently, were who the Chiefs had as BPA...

Don't try and draft for need now that Carl Peterson isn't around drafting for need...can't hit on ever draft pick and apparently Pioli and his scouting staff liked Colin Brown over Meredith...you can't go 100% every year.

ChiefGator
09-01-2009, 02:35 AM
But ****, why draft another defensive end when you have such glaring holes on the offensive line? I mean ****, Hootie! Did you see how poorly the offensive line has performed the past two years?

Worst pass rush in the history of the NFL perhaps?

ChiefGator
09-01-2009, 02:37 AM
All I've read over the past few years from the Mecca's and the Dane's and the draft gurus was BPA...BPA...BPA...

Well...Alex Magee and Donald Washington, apparently, were who the Chiefs had as BPA...


Rep. I have been noticing that trend here as well.

Before the draft: Draft BPA, the way you ruin a franchise is always going for need!

After the draft: What the hell? Didn't they see the need for X position?

Rausch
09-01-2009, 02:37 AM
Worst pass rush in the history of the NFL perhaps?

Who gets maimed if we don't sack the QB?...

salame
09-01-2009, 02:38 AM
[QUOTE=Direckshun;6020934]Round 1: Terrance Cody

Round 2: O-Line

Round 2: O-Line

Round 3: O-line

Round 4: O-line

Round 5: O-Line

fixed

Rausch
09-01-2009, 02:39 AM
Rep. I have been noticing that trend here as well.

Before the draft: Draft BPA, the way you ruin a franchise is always going for need!

After the draft: What the hell? Didn't they see the need for X position?

There were some very good OL in FA this year. We didn't have to draft for need if we'd addressed any of them in free agency...

R&GHomer
09-01-2009, 02:57 AM
There were better choices to be made.

There was no reason to spend the Chiefs first two draft choices on the same position, especially when they signed a $63 million dollar QB that needed protection.

Tyson Jackson and Alex Magee protect no one. And certainly not anyone worth $63 million.

Donald Washington? What, Flowers, Carr and Leggett weren't already on the roster? And Colin Brown over Jamon Meredith?

Face it: There was a gross misjudgment of talent, both on the Chiefs existing roster and in the 2009 NFL Draft.

Maybe that's why they fired the entire scouting department right after the draft. We'll see, but I don't put the blame on the new brain trust just yet.

Rausch
09-01-2009, 03:17 AM
Maybe that's why they fired the entire scouting department right after the draft. We'll see, but I don't put the blame on the new brain trust just yet.

Completely agree.
No good in firing your rookie kicker/OC after 3 preseason games..

Pioli Zombie
09-01-2009, 05:47 AM
Evaluating the class of 2009 before the start of year one. What a stupid ass thread.

Yeah, I still remember the dumbasses in Boston wanting Belichick fired for drafting Seymour over David Terrell.

But go ahead, keep masturbating.
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the Talking Can
09-01-2009, 06:04 AM
we should have taken someone else in the 5th


grade: F

aturnis
09-01-2009, 06:29 AM
Completely agree.
No good in firing your rookie kicker/OC after 3 preseason games..

? Is this a Medlock reference?

Tiger's Fan
09-01-2009, 06:57 AM
Who didn't see this coming from the usual whiny bitches? It never gets old!!!11111111!!

ChiefGator
09-01-2009, 09:06 AM
we should have taken someone else in the 5th


grade: F

LMAO

ChiTown
09-01-2009, 09:11 AM
Probably going to have to AT LEAST get through the majority of the regular season before you can even make a reasonable assessment.

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 09:18 AM
Evaluating the class of 2009 before the start of year one. What a stupid ass thread.

Yeah, I still remember the dumbasses in Boston wanting Belichick fired for drafting Seymour over David Terrell.

But go ahead, keep masturbating.
Posted via Mobile Device


ROFL at Ron Borges... One of his worst moments, and he's had many lowlights...

Amnorix
09-01-2009, 09:19 AM
Probably going to have to AT LEAST get through the majority of the regular season before you can even make a reasonable assessment.

Yeah, 2-3 years is more like it. You can only really know who won/lost in the 2005 draft now. Even 2006 is too early, as it takes some players a couple years to develop.

After 2000 season, the Pats draft class wasnt' looking too hot. That 6th round backup QB hadn't done shitsky...

the Talking Can
09-01-2009, 09:23 AM
if...if we acquired a franchise QB and 2/3rd's of our 3-4 dl...the draft was a major success

throw in succop and it could...could...could be an excellent draft

or they could all suck, time will tell

or it could be like the Holocaust because we failed to draft favorite player X of each super brain on the planet....because missing on one pick automatically makes the entire draft, and the entire regime, forever, a failure, and it makes their kids fat and ugly, forever too...

CoMoChief
09-01-2009, 09:32 AM
jesus ****ing christ!!!!!!!!!!!!


ATTN: THREAD STARTER.....


THE SEASON HAS YET TO BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rambleonthruthefog
09-01-2009, 09:50 AM
Why? Because I have absolutely no control over the Chiefs draft choices.

Would I have chosen someone different? Yes. But that's over.

But ****, why draft another defensive end when you have such glaring holes on the offensive line? I mean ****, Hootie! Did you see how poorly the offensive line has performed the past two years?

Okay, if we get past Magee (which to me is a mistake - either one or the other. Ty Jackson or Magee - not both). Donald Washington? What? Aren't Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr & Chiefs rookie of the year, Maurice Leggett set? I mean, WTF?

And then, to top it off, they PASS on Jamon Meredith (Packers) for Colin Brown? A guy that didn't even have a profile at NFL.com on draft day? A guy that was rated at #58 overall among tackles? A guy that immediately proved he couldn't handle the tackle spot in pads and had to be moved to guard?

Come on, Hootie. Even YOU have to admit that a few of us around here knew the ****ing score.

And Pioli and Haley are paying the price.

what are you? a broken record?

DaneMcCloud
09-01-2009, 11:37 AM
Worst pass rush in the history of the NFL perhaps?

And you expect Tyson Jackson to remedy that?

LMAO

DaneMcCloud
09-01-2009, 11:38 AM
what are you? a broken record?

What are you?

Besides a worthless, fucking dumbass?

doomy3
09-01-2009, 11:38 AM
And you expect Tyson Jackson to remedy that?

LMAO

He'll definitely help. A DE in a 3-4 that can occupy the LT will most definitely have a positive impact for rush backers.

DaneMcCloud
09-01-2009, 11:46 AM
He'll definitely help. A DE in a 3-4 that can occupy the LT will most definitely have a positive impact for rush backers.

Right.

If and when the Chiefs acquire those guys.

But on his own? No.

Jackson isn't a Bruce Smith, Neil Smith, Mario Williams, Julius Peppers type of player.

doomy3
09-01-2009, 11:58 AM
Right.

If and when the Chiefs acquire those guys.

But on his own? No.

Jackson isn't a Bruce Smith, Neil Smith, Mario Williams, Julius Peppers type of player.

No, I don't see anyone saying he is. He could be a Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Ty Warren type of player that can make everyone around him better.

DaneMcCloud
09-01-2009, 11:59 AM
No, I don't see anyone saying he is. He could be a Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Ty Warren type of player that can make everyone around him better.

That was my interpretation of ChiefGator's post.

Worst pass rush in the history of the NFL perhaps?

chiefsfan1963
09-01-2009, 09:00 PM
jesus ****ing christ!!!!!!!!!!!!


ATTN: THREAD STARTER.....


THE SEASON HAS YET TO BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just want to get everyone's hunch now about our 2009 draft choices and see what develops by the end of the season. Right now I still feel NE and Bellichek have done a better job with their draft than we have. That bugs me given where we were position wise in the draft.

Hootie
09-02-2009, 02:41 AM
I just don't get how it went from YOU HAVE TO TAKE BPA to WHY DIDN'T WE ADDRESS THE OFFENSIVE LINE?

It's hilarious.

Rausch
09-02-2009, 02:49 AM
I just don't get how it went from YOU HAVE TO TAKE BPA to WHY DIDN'T WE ADDRESS THE OFFENSIVE LINE?

It's hilarious.

I don't think we did either one.
I think we reached, didn't solve an immediate need, and overpaid as well...

Hootie
09-02-2009, 02:53 AM
I don't think we did either one.
I think we reached, didn't solve an immediate need, and overpaid as well...

and everyone knew coming in the Patriots draft obscure players every year...they don't read scout inc like Herm Edwards did last year to make every expert so super happy!

Hootie
09-02-2009, 02:54 AM
and look how that worked out...

we have one guy (Flowers) that looks like a pro bowler...everyone else?

Meh.

Charles 3rd down specialist, Carr decent...Dorsey? Who knows...Cottam (bust)...Morgan (bust)...Franklin (cut)...that draft ended up being what? So far a C with a little upside (Dorsey)?

Rausch
09-02-2009, 03:02 AM
and everyone knew coming in the Patriots draft obscure players every year...they don't read scout inc like Herm Edwards did last year to make every expert so super happy!

I don't think Herm did a bad job at all drafting. In fact, I think it's downplayed because of his complete failure as a coach and game day decision maker.

The guy was here 3 years and look at his first round picks. Good.
His ability to make the most of those picks was a new and yet to be created term more expansive than "failure."

milkman
09-02-2009, 06:02 AM
and look how that worked out...

we have one guy (Flowers) that looks like a pro bowler...everyone else?

Meh.

Charles 3rd down specialist, Carr decent...Dorsey? Who knows...Cottam (bust)...Morgan (bust)...Franklin (cut)...that draft ended up being what? So far a C with a little upside (Dorsey)?

Charles could be an everydown back, but the Chiefs for reason only God knows, think that LJ still has something to offer.

And labeling Morgan a bust right now might just be a tad premature.

milkman
09-02-2009, 06:15 AM
All I've read over the past few years from the Mecca's and the Dane's and the draft gurus was BPA...BPA...BPA...

Well...Alex Magee and Donald Washington, apparently, were who the Chiefs had as BPA...

Don't try and draft for need now that Carl Peterson isn't around drafting for need...can't hit on ever draft pick and apparently Pioli and his scouting staff liked Colin Brown over Meredith...you can't go 100% every year.

There are a couple of things to consider when talking about the best player available, including need.

If you think that a guy can be a starter at his position for the next 10 years, while another player may never be anymore than a second teamer at his position, then the best player available at that pick is the guy that can start for the nest 10 years.

In the fourth round, Donald Washington is a player selected that may never crack the startig lineup, while Johnathan Luigs would be the starter on opening day, and could very well be a guy that mans that position for a decade.

In the fifth round, Jamon Meredith was a better player than Colin Brown at RT.
It wasn't even close.

The Washington pick is debatable, cause Washington has the athletic ability to possibly be a stud at corner.

The Brown pick isn't.
That guy is never going to take a snap at RT.
He looks like he might eventually be a pretty damn solid guard, but that wasn't the position they were addressing with that pick.

Best player available is the one that has the potential to help your team both now, and over the course of his career.

Hootie
09-02-2009, 02:32 PM
There are a couple of things to consider when talking about the best player available, including need.

If you think that a guy can be a starter at his position for the next 10 years, while another player may never be anymore than a second teamer at his position, then the best player available at that pick is the guy that can start for the nest 10 years.

In the fourth round, Donald Washington is a player selected that may never crack the startig lineup, while Johnathan Luigs would be the starter on opening day, and could very well be a guy that mans that position for a decade.

In the fifth round, Jamon Meredith was a better player than Colin Brown at RT.
It wasn't even close.

The Washington pick is debatable, cause Washington has the athletic ability to possibly be a stud at corner.

The Brown pick isn't.
That guy is never going to take a snap at RT.
He looks like he might eventually be a pretty damn solid guard, but that wasn't the position they were addressing with that pick.

Best player available is the one that has the potential to help your team both now, and over the course of his career.

I get this...

But don't you think that...there was a reason why they took Brown over Meredith? Washington over Luigs?

I guess maybe I have faith in a guy like Pioli...we ALL knew the Patriots draft the Patriots way...and we all knew the guys that go cuckoo over the draft on this board were going to hate Pioli...so what is the big surprise?

So far, watching preseason...I've really liked what I've seen from Jackson and Magee...suddenly we're a NT away from having a pretty damn good DL...one chalked full of potential if you think about it...

and in all honesty, when I was watching...it seemed as if Tamba Hali might actually be a damn good blitzing OLB...but that's just from what I watched and what do I know?

I think we have a chance to field a pretty respectable defense this season...

Now...offensively...different story. But expecting this entire team to be fixed over one season? If we can play a little defense and establish a running game this season...we could win some games.

Hoover
09-02-2009, 02:42 PM
I think Jackson will rush for over a 1000 yards with 8 TDs

milkman
09-02-2009, 03:07 PM
I get this...

But don't you think that...there was a reason why they took Brown over Meredith? Washington over Luigs?

I guess maybe I have faith in a guy like Pioli...we ALL knew the Patriots draft the Patriots way...and we all knew the guys that go cuckoo over the draft on this board were going to hate Pioli...so what is the big surprise?

So far, watching preseason...I've really liked what I've seen from Jackson and Magee...suddenly we're a NT away from having a pretty damn good DL...one chalked full of potential if you think about it...

and in all honesty, when I was watching...it seemed as if Tamba Hali might actually be a damn good blitzing OLB...but that's just from what I watched and what do I know?

I think we have a chance to field a pretty respectable defense this season...

Now...offensively...different story. But expecting this entire team to be fixed over one season? If we can play a little defense and establish a running game this season...we could win some games.

I'm certain there are reasons that they took Washington and Brown, and Washington's potential is pretty obvious.

But I can't even begin to fathom the reasoning behind taking Brown over Meredith.
Certainly there's no guarantee that Meredith will ever amount to anything, but I was almost certain that Brown would never be a RT in the NFL.

The fact that they chose to move him to RG in the second week of training camp pretty much tells us that they realized that he can't play RT, and indicates that the selection was a bad one.

Now I'm simply left to wonder what the hell they were thinking?

Pasta Little Brioni
09-02-2009, 03:21 PM
and look how that worked out...

we have one guy (Flowers) that looks like a pro bowler...everyone else?

Meh.

Charles 3rd down specialist, Carr decent...Dorsey? Who knows...Cottam (bust)...Morgan (bust)...Franklin (cut)...that draft ended up being what? So far a C with a little upside (Dorsey)?

You forgot Albert.

Pasta Little Brioni
09-02-2009, 03:24 PM
I'm certain there are reasons that they took Washington and Brown, and Washington's potential is pretty obvious.

But I can't even begin to fathom the reasoning behind taking Brown over Meredith.
Certainly there's no guarantee that Meredith will ever amount to anything, but I was almost certain that Brown would never be a RT in the NFL.

The fact that they chose to move him to RG in the second week of training camp pretty much tells us that they realized that he can't play RT, and indicates that the selection was a bad one.

Now I'm simply left to wonder what the hell they were thinking?

Brown could turn out to be a solid guard and Meredith could be a bum. Who knows???

milkman
09-02-2009, 03:27 PM
Brown could turn out to be a solid guard and Meredith could be a bum. Who knows???

I get that, and I'm pretty sure that I've been more impressed with Brown at guard than anyone here.

But the fact remains, they selected a RT, and Meredith has/had better potential to succeed at RT than Brown.

DJ's left nut
09-02-2009, 03:40 PM
I hated this draft. Absolutely hated it. I can't figure out why we didn't work on the line, can't figure out why we spent another pick on a project corner, can't figure out why we didn't look at even a longshot NT prospect.

Nothing that happened in this draft made sense to me at all.

At the same time, if we come out of it with a long-term QB and a very good (not solid, but near pro-bowl caliber) 5 technique, I guess the draft will be a good one regardless of how the rest of it turns out.

I think we could've done much MUCH better, but I'll withhold judgment for right now. This draft comes down to Jackson and Cassel, and Cassel will likely only go as far as the O-line can take him. I think we'll know by the end of this season how we should evaluate this draft.

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 03:45 PM
Why? Because I have absolutely no control over the Chiefs draft choices.

Would I have chosen someone different? Yes. But that's over.

But ****, why draft another defensive end when you have such glaring holes on the offensive line? I mean ****, Hootie! Did you see how poorly the offensive line has performed the past two years?

Okay, if we get past Magee (which to me is a mistake - either one or the other. Ty Jackson or Magee - not both). Donald Washington? What? Aren't Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr & Chiefs rookie of the year, Maurice Leggett set? I mean, WTF?

And then, to top it off, they PASS on Jamon Meredith (Packers) for Colin Brown? A guy that didn't even have a profile at NFL.com on draft day? A guy that was rated at #58 overall among tackles? A guy that immediately proved he couldn't handle the tackle spot in pads and had to be moved to guard?

Come on, Hootie. Even YOU have to admit that a few of us around here knew the ****ing score.

And Pioli and Haley are paying the price.

I'm usually not a fan of drafting on need after the first round, but given the Chiefs' investment in a $60M QB and given the Chiefs' lack of effort getting any free agent o-line upgrades, you're absolutely right. I'm cool with getting Jackson and I'm cool with focusing on the D-line. But the fact is, not having an offensive line could injure our most important player. The D-line won't do that. I trust Pioli in the long-run, but think he whiffed big time here.

TFG
09-02-2009, 03:45 PM
As much as I was impressed with Jamon Meredith, something clearly bothered a lot of NFL teams about him. What we know is what we see. Meredith was playing like a First Round caliber OT prospect through his Soph year until something, an ankle, a clash with Spurrier, I don't know, but he was "out of favor" big time last year. Heck, I like him and I would have taken him. It is "what you don't know" that the NFL does that can screw you on these type of things. I liked a Clemson DL named Eric Coleman - had a First Round grade on him in 2005. Then he tested positive for weed at the Combine... went undrafted and wasted true First Round ability and is now out of football.

philfree
09-02-2009, 03:47 PM
I get that, and I'm pretty sure that I've been more impressed with Brown at guard than anyone here.

But the fact remains, they selected a RT, and Meredith has/had better potential to succeed at RT than Brown.

Did Pioli or Haley say they drafted Brown to specifically be a RT? They could have drafted him as an o line prospect in general instead of just a RT prospect.


PhilFree:arrow:

TFG
09-02-2009, 03:50 PM
Did Pioli or Haley say they drafted Brown to specifically be a RT? They could have drafted him as an o line prospect in general instead of just a RT prospect.


PhilFree:arrow:


Let me disagree with my friend milkman and state for the record that I believe Colin Brown has absolutely no future as an NFL interior OL. He lacks the power and base to succeed there. He is just too high, center of gravity-wise.

Colin Brown was Pioli's best ORT at the pick he was taken. Why Pioli didn't like Meredith is something only Pioli knows. Pioli certainly did know who Meredith was.

milkman
09-02-2009, 03:51 PM
Did Pioli or Haley say they drafted Brown to specifically be a RT? They could have drafted him as an o line prospect in general instead of just a RT prospect.


PhilFree:arrow:

No they didn't.

I'm making assumptions based on observations from OTAs and camp.

Theye worked him exclusively at RT until the second week of camp before he was moved to guard, and since has worked exclusively at guard.

That strongly suggests he was drafted at RT.

milkman
09-02-2009, 03:54 PM
Let me disagree with my friend milkman and state for the record that I believe Colin Brown has absolutely no future as an NFL interior OL. He lacks the power and base to succeed there. He is just too high, center of gravity-wise.

Colin Brown was Pioli's best ORT at the pick he was taken. Why Pioli didn't like Meredith is something only Pioli knows. Pioli certainly did know who Meredith was.

He is,in theory too high, but he hasn't played nearly as tall as he is.

His play at RG in the first two preseason games was remarkably impressive.

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 03:54 PM
There were better choices to be made.

There was no reason to spend the Chiefs first two draft choices on the same position, especially when they signed a $63 million dollar QB that needed protection.

Tyson Jackson and Alex Magee protect no one. And certainly not anyone worth $63 million.

Donald Washington? What, Flowers, Carr and Leggett weren't already on the roster? And Colin Brown over Jamon Meredith?

Face it: There was a gross misjudgment of talent, both on the Chiefs existing roster and in the 2009 NFL Draft.

Yeah, Pioli & Haley don't know $hit about football. They should be fired immediately! :rolleyes:

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Someone, I want to say it was Dane but I'm not sure, after the dragt happened had some good insight. Whomever made the comment noted that the picks weren't "Pioli type picks". The picks were all physical specimens. Especially after the 2 DEs. The poster then went on to suggest that since Pioli was late to the game and had to use the in-house scouts (you'll remember they got promptly SHITCANNED) that he chose the guys with the greatest upside.

Valid point of discussion. We have no way of knowing, but it is a good possibility.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mecca
09-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Meredith ended up in Green Bay who has a really nice history of building OL's out of the first round.

milkman
09-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah, Pioli & Haley don't know $hit about football. They should be fired immediately! :rolleyes:

I really enjoy these leaps of Piologic.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 04:05 PM
I really enjoy these leaps of Piologic.

I will never get our fan base that if you talk about how you don't like something that is the response you get.

Our forum is turning into the coalition or WPI.

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 04:05 PM
I really enjoy these leaps of Piologic.

Not sure what you mean. Hopefully, your sarcasm meter is working.

DJ's left nut
09-02-2009, 04:09 PM
Not sure what you mean. Hopefully, your sarcasm meter is working.

I believe it is and he's calling you out for your exceptionally shallow opinion.

Just because Pioli and Haley think something, that doesn't make it right. Nor does it mean that anyone that opposes them is incorrect.

You just dropped the ultimate in Bush-league, copout responses.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 04:10 PM
I will never get our fan base that if you talk about how you don't like something that is the response you get.

Our forum is turning into the coalition or WPI.

Dude, NO team has exclusively smart fans. 99% of fans are go-tards.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mecca
09-02-2009, 04:13 PM
Dude, NO team has exclusively smart fans. 99% of fans are go-tards.
Posted via Mobile Device

Sure, and for the most part this board was fine for awhile but this offseason turned us into 90% coalition where no one wants to express an opinion that isn't positive and even people who disagree saying things like "I'll default to Pioli"

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 04:14 PM
I will never get our fan base that if you talk about how you don't like something that is the response you get.

Our forum is turning into the coalition or WPI.

First off, this thread is silly: it's WAY too early to evaluate this draft.

What I don't get is how someone can post "Face it: There was a gross misjudgment of talent, both on the Chiefs existing roster and in the 2009 NFL Draft." If you're a Chiefs' fan, why post negative crap on something like this? There's other legit things to bitch about. Whatever. It's obvious that the "glass is half empty" crowd is here to stay. :spock:

Mecca
09-02-2009, 04:15 PM
First off, this thread is silly: it's WAY too early to evaluate this draft.

What I don't get is how someone can post "Face it: There was a gross misjudgment of talent, both on the Chiefs existing roster and in the 2009 NFL Draft." If you're a Chiefs' fan, why post negative crap on something like this? There's other legit things to bitch about. Whatever. It's obvious that the "glass is half empty" crowd is here to stay. :spock:

The premise of the thread is stupid, but um dude when the team is coming off a 2-14 season fans have a right to be negative.

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 04:16 PM
I believe it is and he's calling you out for your exceptionally shallow opinion.

Just because Pioli and Haley think something, that doesn't make it right. Nor does it mean that anyone that opposes them is incorrect.

You just dropped the ultimate in Bush-league, copout responses.

Wasn't a copout. If you got something to be negative about, then fine. But to summarily dismiss nearly the entire 2009 draft at this point is unnecessary and stupid. And my opinion isn't shallow. Look in the mirror, friend.

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 04:18 PM
The premise of the thread is stupid, but um dude when the team is coming off a 2-14 season fans have a right to be negative.

New owner, new GM, new coach. Hard for me to hold them accountable for the Peterson/Edwards two year abortion.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 04:19 PM
New owner, new GM, new coach. Hard for me to hold them accountable for the Peterson/Edwards two year abortion.

Sure but they can be held accountable for moves they made this offseason, which right now doesn't look like anything to thrilling.

TRR
09-02-2009, 04:25 PM
Looking back, the only pick I didn't like was the Alex Magee pick. Not because I didn't think he had the skill, but because Haley and Pioli had to know they were moving Dorsey to an end position, and the back to back position picks didn't seem to make much sense with all of the other holes on the roster.
Posted via Mobile Device

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 04:27 PM
Sure but they can be held accountable for moves they made this offseason, which right now doesn't look like anything to thrilling.

WTF? You don't build Rome in a day. And not one regular season game has been played yet. And to dismiss the draft is nothing more than taking a negative position. It's a pose. I'm not saying Pioli is infallible. But $hit, the guy has a pedigree worthy of a little patience. If you're going to bitch, make it a legit bitch. That's all I'm saying.

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 04:28 PM
New owner, new GM, new coach. Hard for me to hold them accountable for the Peterson/Edwards two year abortion.

I've been pretty vocal about how much I hate Carl Peterson, and was very excited to get Pioli.

But we have to be careful not to give Pioli a free ride just because he's not Carl Peterson. I agree with the direction he's taking the defense, but I think he made a very costly error on the offensive side and I have a feeling that he knows it.

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 04:30 PM
I've been pretty vocal about how much I hate Carl Peterson, and was very excited to get Pioli.

But we have to be careful not to give Pioli a free ride just because he's not Carl Peterson. I agree with the direction he's taking the defense, but I think he made a very costly error on the offensive side and I have a feeling that he knows it.

Now I can get onboard with this. Why pay Cassel the mad $$ and stick him behind an o-line with a crumbling right side? Legit question. Thank you.

Sweet Daddy Hate
09-02-2009, 04:30 PM
and look how that worked out...

we have one guy (Flowers) that looks like a pro bowler...everyone else?

Meh.

Charles 3rd down specialist, Carr decent...Dorsey? Who knows...Cottam (bust)...Morgan (bust)...Franklin (cut)...that draft ended up being what? So far a C with a little upside (Dorsey)?

You forgot Albert.

Yeah he did.

Hootie = FAIL.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 04:34 PM
Someone, I want to say it was Dane but I'm not sure, after the dragt happened had some good insight. Whomever made the comment noted that the picks weren't "Pioli type picks". The picks were all physical specimens. Especially after the 2 DEs. The poster then went on to suggest that since Pioli was late to the game and had to use the in-house scouts (you'll remember they got promptly SHITCANNED) that he chose the guys with the greatest upside.

Valid point of discussion. We have no way of knowing, but it is a good possibility.
Posted via Mobile Device

Of all the bullfuckingshit in this thread, nobody has ANY comments on this?

Seriously?
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
09-02-2009, 04:35 PM
Now I can get onboard with this. Why pay Cassel the mad $$ and stick him behind an o-line with a crumbling right side? Legit question. Thank you.

And that was the gist of Dane's post.

Somehow, Pioli and Haley failed to recognize the absolute dogshit that makes up at least 3/5s of the the Chiefs O-Line and failed to address with more than a suck ass declining vet.

TFG
09-02-2009, 04:35 PM
Sure but they can be held accountable for moves they made this offseason, which right now doesn't look like anything to thrilling.


It is all about "opportunity cost." Granted, Pioli and Haley were handed a pretty sorry roster. The biggest "beefs" are

1. Why the "urgent need" to switch to 3-4 when most of the DLs and LBs on the roster were much better suited for 4-3? Hilariously enough, Oracle Bill has the Pats fiddling with a 4-3, precisely because Mayo is the ultimate 4-3 MLB (and Tedy was letting it be known he may decide to not play this year). I particularly question why it was necessary to not offer Jason Babin even a one year minimum deal to stay. Babin had clearly "failed" as a 3-4 OLB. In the final two or three games last year, Babin's light seemed to go from total darkness to flicker. Because the existing DLs were more 4-3 than 3-4, that appears to have "forced" the pick of T-Jax (and perhaps Magee). OPPORTUNITY COST - Eugene Monroe.

2. The trade for Cassel and getting the "young QB of the future" before the OL was fixed.

3. The picks after Magee in the Draft are, in my opinion, particularly disappointing. The best player the Chiefs landed this offseason after Magee was Darryl Harris, and that was pure luck, as the GM assumes "try out players" are not even worthy of camp fodder status. This Draft had some serious players late and undrafted besides Harris, and I think Pioli really whiffed on all of them (exclude Lawrence, as I have not watched him).

milkman
09-02-2009, 04:35 PM
Of all the bull****ingshit in this thread, nobody has ANY comments on this?

Seriously?
Posted via Mobile Device

Did you say something?

Mecca
09-02-2009, 04:37 PM
You know what I find amusing...the only Patriots assistant that is finding any success is the one that didn't force his team into 3-4.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 04:39 PM
Did you say something?

Why do you have to pick on the retarded kid?
Posted via Mobile Device

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 04:39 PM
It is all about "opportunity cost." Granted, Pioli and Haley were handed a pretty sorry roster. The biggest "beefs" are

1. Why the "urgent need" to switch to 3-4 when most of the DLs and LBs on the roster were much better suited for 4-3? Hilariously enough, Oracle Bill has the Pats fiddling with a 4-3, precisely because Mayo is the ultimate 4-3 MLB (and Tedy was letting it be known he may decide to not play this year). I particularly question why it was necessary to not offer Jason Babin even a one year minimum deal to stay. Babin had clearly "failed" as a 3-4 OLB. In the final two or three games last year, Babin's light seemed to go from total darkness to flicker. Because the existing DLs were more 4-3 than 3-4, that appears to have "forced" the pick of T-Jax (and perhaps Magee). OPPORTUNITY COST - Eugene Monroe.

2. The trade for Cassel and getting the "young QB of the future" before the OL was fixed.

3. The picks after Magee in the Draft are, in my opinion, particularly disappointing. The best player the Chiefs landed this offseason after Magee was Darryl Harris, and that was pure luck, as the GM assumes "try out players" are not even worthy of camp fodder status. This Draft had some serious players late and undrafted besides Harris, and I think Pioli really whiffed on all of them (exclude Lawrence, as I have not watched him).

What's so interesting about Pioli's decision to move to a 3-4, is that despite putting almost all of our resources into a 3-4, we haven't even committed to it. The only guy who I think would not fit into a 3-4 on our current roster is Mike Vrabel. Most of the other guys can play either/or and most of them are better off in a 4-3. You could argue that asking Hali to play a few pounds lighter made him more of a 3-4 guy, but he could easily add those lbs. back next year.

Pablo
09-02-2009, 04:40 PM
WORST DRAFT EVAR.

Pioli didn't even consult CP when he drafted these guys, what is he, retarded?

milkman
09-02-2009, 04:41 PM
Why do you have to pick on the retarded kid?
Posted via Mobile Device

It's my calling.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 04:42 PM
You know what I find amusing...the only Patriots assistant that is finding any success is the one that didn't force his team into 3-4.

Yeah, because the 4-3 was working so well for us. You know with all this supreme talent we have.

If we would have stayed in the 4-3, we would have had to commit MORE talent to the 4-3 that would have been pissed away when we eventually switched. The head coach wants it and thw GM wants it. If the ownership (the only other person that matters) didn't want it, he shouldn't have hired Pioli.
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
09-02-2009, 04:42 PM
WORST DRAFT EVAR.

Pioli didn't even consult CP when he drafted these guys, what is he, retarded?

No.

But this post is.

milkman
09-02-2009, 04:45 PM
Yeah, because the 4-3 was working so well for us. You know with all this supreme talent we have.

If we would have stayed in the 4-3, we would have had to commit MORE talent to the 4-3 that would have been pissed away when we eventually switched. The head coach wants it and thw GM wants it. If the ownership (the only other person that matters) didn't want it, he shouldn't have hired Pioli.
Posted via Mobile Device

Good point.

Given the sorry state of the Chiefs defense anyway, there is no benefit in waiting to make the switch.

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 04:51 PM
And that was the gist of Dane's post.

Somehow, Pioli and Haley failed to recognize the absolute dogshit that makes up at least 3/5s of the the Chiefs O-Line and failed to address with more than a suck ass declining vet.

Okay, after rereading Dane's post and one of his prior posts that I initially missed: he does seem most concerned about the positions drafted and not drafted. So my apologies to Dane on that. [Although he does question the talent level of some picks and their ability to play in the NFL, which I have a problem with.] I'm not an advocate of blind homerism, but I do get tired of the negativity. So Dane, my apologies for missing your earlier post and not getting all of your argument clearly. That said, I think it's fair to give the Pioli regime a chance to complete some regular season games before I prejudge their draft/personnel moves.

TFG
09-02-2009, 04:52 PM
Yeah, because the 4-3 was working so well for us. You know with all this supreme talent we have.

If we would have stayed in the 4-3, we would have had to commit MORE talent to the 4-3 that would have been pissed away when we eventually switched. The head coach wants it and thw GM wants it. If the ownership (the only other person that matters) didn't want it, he shouldn't have hired Pioli.
Posted via Mobile Device


I don't agree with that at all. DJ is clearly a 4-3 OLB, as is Demorrio. Corey Mays was on the roster already. There were some decent LBs for 4-3 in FA, including the Ram now a Bear = Pisa. I would have grabbed Hagler from the Colts. You have Hali as one DE, Babin as depth. Yes, 4-3 DE needed a boost, and Everette Brown would have been tempting had the Cassel trade not been made. My "best value" at DE was Brandon Williams of TexTech, who has already torn a knee as Dallas 4th rounder. DT, yeah, you needed somebody to push the LOS and not give way to double teams. That was Ron Brace, and he was more important than the DE. So, yeah, as it was with the 4-3 on the roster, you really needed DE and stud run stuff DT = 2 players. You could get by with LB in FA and late picks. And, yeah, you need Glen Dorsey to get his #### together. MLB Scott McKillop is there in Round 5.

With the 3-4, you needed at least two DLs, you are assuming Hali can play OLB, and you don't have anything resembling a serious NT (and failed to get one even after spending 1 and 3 on DL). Sorry, but having Vrabel on the roster doesn't inspire me... The 3-4 "consumed" a lot of other options, especially upgrading the OL from dog#### to elite.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 04:58 PM
I don't agree with that at all. DJ is clearly a 4-3 OLB, as is Demorrio. Corey Mays was on the roster already. There were some decent LBs for 4-3 in FA, including the Ram now a Bear = Pisa. I would have grabbed Hagler from the Colts. You have Hali as one DE, Babin as depth. Yes, 4-3 DE needed a boost, and Everette Brown would have been tempting had the Cassel trade not been made. My "best value" at DE was Brandon Williams of TexTech, who has already torn a knee as Dallas 4th rounder. DT, yeah, you needed somebody to push the LOS and not give way to double teams. That was Ron Brace, and he was more important than the DE. So, yeah, as it was with the 4-3 on the roster, you really needed DE and stud run stuff DT = 2 players. You could get by with LB in FA and late picks. And, yeah, you need Glen Dorsey to get his #### together. MLB Scott McKillop is there in Round 5.

With the 3-4, you needed at least two DLs, you are assuming Hali can play OLB, and you don't have anything resembling a serious NT (and failed to get one even after spending 1 and 3 on DL). Sorry, but having Vrabel on the roster doesn't inspire me... The 3-4 "consumed" a lot of other options, especially upgrading the OL from dog#### to elite.

Will you please give up on drafting a fucking RT with the 3 overall? Pioli did error (IMO) in not getting a RT, but it was later in the draft and free agency, not the fucking 3 overall pick.

And Ron Brace, who will likely take a year to get acclimated, Evertt Brown (you can't have Brace and Brown both anyway), and a free agent LB was not going to make this defense better than dogshit.
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
09-02-2009, 05:10 PM
Will you please give up on drafting a ****ing RT with the 3 overall? Pioli did error (IMO) in not getting a RT, but it was later in the draft and free agency, not the ****ing 3 overall pick.

And Ron Brace, who will likely take a year to get acclimated, Evertt Brown (you can't have Brace and Brown both anyway), and a free agent LB was not going to make this defense better than dogshit.
Posted via Mobile Device

And let's not overlook the fact that even if he's right about DJ and DeMorrio, a premise that I don't agree with as it relates to DJ at least, neither are guys that you build a defense around.

And guys like Hali and Babin are irrelevent as well.

The only legitimate concern is that Dorsey isn't a good fit.

There isn't enough talent for a 43 here to scrap the idea of making the switch.

kstater
09-02-2009, 05:17 PM
And let's not overlook the fact that even if he's right about DJ and DeMorrio, a premise that I don't agree with as it relates to DJ at least, neither are guys that you build a defense around.

And guys like Hali and Babin are irrelevent as well.

The only legitimate concern is that Dorsey isn't a good fit.

There isn't enough talent for a 43 here to scrap the idea of making the switch.

One could even argue that now's the best time to switch and throw these guys out there in a sink or swim situation and see who can hang on and contribute as depth down the line.

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 05:30 PM
And let's not overlook the fact that even if he's right about DJ and DeMorrio, a premise that I don't agree with as it relates to DJ at least, neither are guys that you build a defense around.

And guys like Hali and Babin are irrelevent as well.

The only legitimate concern is that Dorsey isn't a good fit.

There isn't enough talent for a 43 here to scrap the idea of making the switch.

Agreed. Fixing this roster is going to be a herculean task regardless of the defensive (or offensive) scheme. Setting the bar too high on expectations for the new admin's first year is going to induce a lot of heartache. You can only do so much in one season.

milkman
09-02-2009, 05:32 PM
Agreed. Fixing this roster is going to be a herculean task regardless of the defensive (or offensive) scheme. Setting the bar too high on expectations for the new admin's first year is going to induce a lot of heartache. You can only do so much in one season.

Dare we say a Piolian task?

T-post Tom
09-02-2009, 06:36 PM
Dare we say a Piolian task?

Best be careful with those kind of reckless remarks or some will accuse you of drinking the kool-aid. (Made fresh with Piolian bath water.) :D

the Talking Can
09-02-2009, 06:47 PM
just to be clear:

we were supposed to pay Pioli an assload of money to come to the Chiefs and not build the defense he wants, knows, and spent years identifying talent for on Superbowl winning teams, but instead continue with the 4-3 for the sole purpose of building around the piece of shit players acquired by DV, Herm, Gun, and Carl - all of whom suck yak ass and have never demonstrated a single seasons worth of talent, desire, or skill sufficient to win more than 4 games or be ranked better than one of the lowest defenses in the league, the players whose only accomplishment in the nfl is setting a league record for fewest sacks in a season - because we don't want to throw away these valuable pieces and start over?



um........



..............huh?

kstater
09-02-2009, 06:50 PM
just to be clear:

we were supposed to pay Pioli an assload of money to come to the Chiefs and not build the defense he wants, knows, and spent years identifying talent for on Superbowl winning teams, but instead continue with the 4-3 for the sole purpose of building around the piece of shit players acquired by DV, Herm, Gun, and Carl - all of whom suck yak ass and have never demonstrated a single seasons worth of talent, desire, or skill sufficient to win more than 4 games or be ranked better than one of the lowest defenses in the league, the players whose only accomplishment in the nfl is setting a league record for fewest sacks in a season - because we don't want to throw away these valuable pieces and start over?



um........



..............huh?

No, Pioli just can't do it this year. Maybe next year.

milkman
09-02-2009, 06:50 PM
just to be clear:

we were supposed to pay Pioli an assload of money to come to the Chiefs and not build the defense he wants, knows, and spent years identifying talent for on Superbowl winning teams, but instead continue with the 4-3 for the sole purpose of building around the piece of shit players acquired by DV, Herm, Gun, and Carl - all of whom suck yak ass and have never demonstrated a single seasons worth of talent, desire, or skill sufficient to win more than 4 games or be ranked better than one of the lowest defenses in the league, the players whose only accomplishment in the nfl is setting a league record for fewest sacks in a season - because we don't want to throw away these valuable pieces and start over?



um........



..............huh?

I don't think many are saying that.

Most of us, however, are saying that the 4th and 5th round picks could have been used more effectively, and that there were free agents that also could have been persued.

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 06:56 PM
I don't agree with that at all. DJ is clearly a 4-3 OLB, as is Demorrio. Corey Mays was on the roster already. There were some decent LBs for 4-3 in FA, including the Ram now a Bear = Pisa. I would have grabbed Hagler from the Colts. You have Hali as one DE, Babin as depth. Yes, 4-3 DE needed a boost, and Everette Brown would have been tempting had the Cassel trade not been made. My "best value" at DE was Brandon Williams of TexTech, who has already torn a knee as Dallas 4th rounder. DT, yeah, you needed somebody to push the LOS and not give way to double teams. That was Ron Brace, and he was more important than the DE. So, yeah, as it was with the 4-3 on the roster, you really needed DE and stud run stuff DT = 2 players. You could get by with LB in FA and late picks. And, yeah, you need Glen Dorsey to get his #### together. MLB Scott McKillop is there in Round 5.

With the 3-4, you needed at least two DLs, you are assuming Hali can play OLB, and you don't have anything resembling a serious NT (and failed to get one even after spending 1 and 3 on DL). Sorry, but having Vrabel on the roster doesn't inspire me... The 3-4 "consumed" a lot of other options, especially upgrading the OL from dog#### to elite.

You make a LOT of assumptions.

In a 4-3, you need two, arguably 3 very good 4-3 DEs. And you need a stud MLB. The Chiefs didn't have any of those. They have a good depth 4-3 DE in Hali and McBride, but none that can be an every-down starter.

So while I think we were on the right track in building a 4-3, I would much rather build toward a 3-4 than a 4-3. If you can get a nose tackle, you are mostly there. I would rather look for a nose tackle than 3 DEs.

the Talking Can
09-02-2009, 07:02 PM
I don't think many are saying that.

Most of us, however, are saying that the 4th and 5th round picks could have been used more effectively, and that there were free agents that also could have been persued.

i was mostly responding to tfg

but as for your point, you could say that about most any team, most any year....i guess i just can't get that worked up about a regime digging out of a shit pile from which they can't even see the sky, currently..so to speak...are things even worse then they imagined? yeah, it seems so...but they bought the "house" sight unseen and thems the breaks...all they can do is move forward..

if we look back and say cassel, jackson, magee, and succop are players - which is not proven, but is well within the range of the possible - then it was a great draft....period

when all these amazing 5th rounders are great players, and Cassel is dead, and magee is in a spit hood, and jackson is selling shrimp off a boat with dorsey, I'll gladly join the parade...until then it seems like a lot people - not you - are cashing in on the future for the luxury of whining now....

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 07:04 PM
i was mostly responding to tfg

but as for your point, you could say that about most any team, most any year....i guess i just can't get that worked up about it

if we look back and say cassel, jackson, magee, and succop are players - which is not proven, but is well within the range of the possible - then it was a great draft....period

when all these amazing 5th rounders are great players, and Cassel is dead, and magee is in a spit hood, and jackson is selling shrimp off a boat with dorsey, I'll gladly join the parade...until then it seems like a lot people - not you - are cashing in on the future for the luxury of whining now....

Like I said before...
They basically bought a Lamborghini without insurance or a car alarm.

It's not about what happens three years from now. It's about the team consciously making a decision to do nothing to protect their major investment now. Because in game 1, I don't care if Cassel performs or doesn't perform. What scares the shit out of me is an o-linemen missing his block and ending Cassel's season.

TEX
09-02-2009, 07:05 PM
I don't think many are saying that.

Most of us, however, are saying that the 4th and 5th round picks could have been used more effectively, and that there were free agents that also could have been persued.

This.

the Talking Can
09-02-2009, 07:12 PM
Like I said before...
They basically bought a Lamborghini without insurance or a car alarm.

It's not about what happens three years from now. It's about the team consciously making a decision to do nothing to protect their major investment now. Because in game 1, I don't care if Cassel performs or doesn't perform. What scares the shit out of me is an o-linemen missing his block and ending Cassel's season.

actually, they bought an empty warehouse and then discovered it was a chemical dumping ground....

they didn't do nothing, it's just that the something they did hasn't worked out...plus, they're making difficult long term decisions - trading tony, moving to a 3-4 - which have negative short term effects....but we've been begging for this for a decade and now before we've played a single game people are already in the buyers remorse stage...i personally finding it baffling

there is no smooth, clean, easy way to rebuild this shit hole of a franchise

and while everyone is busy dancing around Cassel's grave and talking about how shitty our drafts picks are and how awesome everyone elses are, how about we actually let the season happen...you know, the future, that thing that hasn't happened yet contrary to most people's belief...

the sheer volume of "me too"-ism on this board once cassel tweaked a knee - gasp! and flowers is injured too, if only we drafted a backu...wait - has been both hilarious and frankly depressing...

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 07:15 PM
actually, they bought an empty warehouse and then discovered it was a chemical dumping ground....

they didn't do nothing, it's just that the something they did hasn't worked out...plus, they're making difficult long term decisions - trading tony, moving to a 3-4 - which have negative short term effects....but we've been begging for this for a decade and now before we've played a single game people are already in the buyers remorse stage...i personally finding it baffling

there is no smooth, clean, easy way to rebuild this shit hole of a franchise

and while everyone is busy dancing around Cassel's grave and talking about shitty our drafts picks are and how awesome everyone elses are, how about we actually let the season happen...you know, the future, that thing that hasn't happened yet contrary to most people's belief...

the sheer volume of "me too"-ism on this board once cassel tweaked a knee - gasp! - has been both hilarious and frankly depressing...

Cassel = Lamborghini

They didn't buy insurance and they didn't buy a car alarm. And so now, you cross your fingers every single snap and just hope that our "chemical dumping ground" of an o-line doesn't get him killed. I've been harping on this for months.

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 07:16 PM
actually, they bought an empty warehouse and then discovered it was a chemical dumping ground....

they didn't do nothing, it's just that the something they did hasn't worked out...plus, they're making difficult long term decisions - trading tony, moving to a 3-4 - which have negative short term effects....but we've been begging for this for a decade and now before we've played a single game people are already in the buyers remorse stage...i personally finding it baffling

there is no smooth, clean, easy way to rebuild this shit hole of a franchise

and while everyone is busy dancing around Cassel's grave and talking about how shitty our drafts picks are and how awesome everyone elses are, how about we actually let the season happen...you know, the future, that thing that hasn't happened yet contrary to most people's belief...

the sheer volume of "me too"-ism on this board once cassel tweaked a knee - gasp! and flowers is injured too, if only we drafted a backu...wait - has been both hilarious and frankly depressing...

I have no problem taking a while to rebuild the D. I have no problem with the Chiefs only winning 4 games this season. I am a huge supporter of the move to a 3-4.

But I am pissed off that they prioritized rebuilding the defense over putting guys in front to protect Cassel. The Chiefs are gambling with every single snap.

the Talking Can
09-02-2009, 07:19 PM
I have no problem taking a while to rebuild the D. I have no problem with the Chiefs only winning 4 games this season. I am a huge supporter of the move to a 3-4.

But I am pissed off that they prioritized rebuilding the defense over putting guys in front to protect Cassel. The Chiefs are gambling with every single snap.

our defensive front seven was worse than our ol last year
our offense actually scored points

if you're moving to a 3-4, then do it...

it's a perfectly rational line of thought, people pretending they "can't understand it" and playing dumb.....and at this point it is more like mass hysteria than anything

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 07:41 PM
our defensive front seven was worse than our ol last year
our offense actually scored points

if you're moving to a 3-4, then do it...

it's a perfectly rational line of thought, people pretending they "can't understand it" and playing dumb.....and at this point it is more like mass hysteria than anything

The point being, if our D-line sucks, nothing gets hurt but egos from a shitty defense. If our o-line sucks, then you can hurt your $60M QB.

It's not mass hysteria. In case you haven't checked, we have a starter who tweaked a knee from poor pass protection, a backup QB who cracked his ribs from poor protection, a fragile QB who amazingly took a huge hit in the preseason and kept on ticking, and we are one season removed from losing 2 QBs in the first quarter of the season to injury.

If there's mass hysteria, it's for good reason.

TFG
09-02-2009, 07:59 PM
The point being, if our D-line sucks, nothing gets hurt but egos from a shitty defense. If our o-line sucks, then you can hurt your $60M QB.

It's not mass hysteria. In case you haven't checked, we have a starter who tweaked a knee from poor pass protection, a backup QB who cracked his ribs from poor protection, a fragile QB who amazingly took a huge hit in the preseason and kept on ticking, and we are one season removed from losing 2 QBs in the first quarter of the season to injury.

If there's mass hysteria, it's for good reason.



Just remember that, no matter what, the Chief Franchise is simply not allowed to spend a First Round pick on an ORT - not nyet never no way...

:shake:


A Brett Keisel caliber 3-4 DE, sure. Just not a Mark May caliber ORT...

DeezNutz
09-02-2009, 08:01 PM
Just remember that, no matter what, the Chief Franchise is simply not allowed to spend a First Round pick on an ORT - not nyet never no way...

:shake:

Has anyone said that?

Or have some posters simply said that spending a top 5, let alone a top 3, pick on a RT is stupid?

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Has anyone said that?

Or have some posters simply said that spending a top 5, let alone a top 3, pick on a RT is stupid?

The latter. And they would be right.

milkman
09-02-2009, 08:07 PM
Just remember that, no matter what, the Chief Franchise is simply not allowed to spend a First Round pick on an ORT - not nyet never no way...

:shake:


A Brett Keisel caliber 3-4 DE, sure. Just not a Mark May caliber ORT...

How many times are you going to rehash old arguments?

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:09 PM
How many Recent Super Bowl champs have had O-lines where they had two first round picks at the tackle spots... now ask yourself how many of those recent SB champs had outstanding Defenses....

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:12 PM
How many Recent Super Bowl champs have had O-lines where they had two first round picks at the tackle spots... now ask yourself how many of those recent SB champs had outstanding Defenses....

Well most superbowl champs have 1st round QB's too...so there's always that.

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:13 PM
The latter. And they would be right.


LOL


So, there is some sort of "ceiling" on what the Chiefs can or cannot spend on an "ORT?"

If Orlando Pace from Ohio State was there at #3, you would pass on him because he'd be an "ORT."

If you have Tony Boselli, you cannot spend top dollar on FA ORT Leon Searcy, right?

If you have Mark May and Joe Jacoby, you sure as heck would not trade Jay Schroeder to Oakland for Jim Lachey... because that would make Joe Jacoby an ORT and May an ORG... nevermind the ring they got that year from demolishing the Bills in the Super Bowl...

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:16 PM
Well most superbowl champs have 1st round QB's too...so there's always that.

lol that is true, I was on the Stafford/Sanchez bandwagon, but I am willing to give Cassel a shot, not that it matters...... so your telling me you would take a John Tait or a Robert Gallery over say a Richard Seymour on your defense

milkman
09-02-2009, 08:16 PM
LOL


So, there is some sort of "ceiling" on what the Chiefs can or cannot spend on an "ORT?"

If Orlando Pace from Ohio State was there at #3, you would pass on him because he'd be an "ORT."

If you have Tony Boselli, you cannot spend top dollar on FA ORT Leon Searcy, right?

If you have Mark May and Joe Jacoby, you sure as heck would not trade Jay Schroeder to Oakland for Jim Lachey... because that would make Joe Jacoby an ORT and May an ORG... nevermind the ring they got that year from demolishing the Bills in the Super Bowl...

Using an 80s O-Line as an example has no bearing on the economics of today's free agent, salary cap NFL.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:17 PM
You have to realize how much money you can account to each position in the cap era, if you have 2 first round OT's odds are you are overpaying for the position and you will lose one because as soon as that RT's contract is up..especially if he was taken top 5 he'll leave cause another team will offer him more than you can pay.

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:18 PM
LOL


So, there is some sort of "ceiling" on what the Chiefs can or cannot spend on an "ORT?"

If Orlando Pace from Ohio State was there at #3, you would pass on him because he'd be an "ORT."

If you have Tony Boselli, you cannot spend top dollar on FA ORT Leon Searcy, right?

If you have Mark May and Joe Jacoby, you sure as heck would not trade Jay Schroeder to Oakland for Jim Lachey... because that would make Joe Jacoby an ORT and May an ORG... nevermind the ring they got that year from demolishing the Bills in the Super Bowl...

Mark May and Tony Boselli are available from what I hear, lets bring em in and give em a shot

DeezNutz
09-02-2009, 08:18 PM
If Steve Hutchinson is available, you take him.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:19 PM
lol that is true, I was on the Stafford/Sanchez bandwagon, but I am willing to give Cassel a shot, not that it matters...... so your telling me you would take a John Tait or a Robert Gallery over say a Richard Seymour on your defense

You're picking guys who didn't pan out though so it's not a true example...if you are going to use Seymour as the example you should give like Walter Jones as the other example.

DeezNutz
09-02-2009, 08:21 PM
You're picking guys who didn't pan out though so it's not a true example...if you are going to use Seymour as the example you should give like Walter Jones as the other example.

So you'd rather have Ryan Leaf, that's what you're saying?

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:26 PM
How many Recent Super Bowl champs have had O-lines where they had two first round picks at the tackle spots... now ask yourself how many of those recent SB champs had outstanding Defenses....


Specifically two FIRSTS recently - very few. I would include very expensive FAs too. That list of Super Bowl participants includes

Steelers - Wayne Gandy and Marvel Smith were both Firsts
Rams - Pace was a First, Miller then left for huge bucks in FA
Eagles - Thomas First, Runyan expensive FA
Bucs - Roman Oben 3rd round OLT, Kenyatta Walker FIRST ROUND ORT
Panthers - Jordan Gross FIRST ROUND ORT at the time Todd Steussie FIRST ROUND OLT FA
Titans - Brad Hopkins First Round Jon Runyan 4th round STUD
Raiders - Kennedy FIRST Stinchcomb FIRST

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:26 PM
You're picking guys who didn't pan out though so it's not a true example...if you are going to use Seymour as the example you should give like Walter Jones as the other example.

yeah but when your drafting you don't know if the player is going to be any good, you don't just take a tackle to take a tackle, the Raiders thought Gallery was a sure thing, look how that panned out, people were down on the Seymour pick and he turned out to be a stud and cornerstone of that defense

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:29 PM
Specifically two FIRSTS recently - very few. I would include very expensive FAs too. That list of Super Bowl participants includes

Steelers - Wayne Gandy and Marvel Smith were both Firsts
Rams - Pace was a First, Miller then left for huge bucks in FA
Eagles - Thomas First, Runyan expensive FA
Bucs - Roman Oben 3rd round OLT, Kenyatta Walker FIRST ROUND ORT
Panthers - Jordan Gross FIRST ROUND ORT at the time Todd Steussie FIRST ROUND OLT FA
Titans - Brad Hopkins First Round Jon Runyan 4th round STUD
Raiders - Kennedy FIRST Stinchcomb FIRST

only a few of those teams actually won, and going into last season the O-line was not the strength of the Steelers, and a few of them got beat by a Belicheck/Pioli built O-line, which was not made up of high picks or expensive FA's

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:29 PM
yeah but when your drafting you don't know if the player is going to be any good, you don't just take a tackle to take a tackle, the Raiders thought Gallery was a sure thing, look how that panned out, people were down on the Seymour pick and he turned out to be a stud and cornerstone of that defense

This works both ways...if you give a good player and a bad player people always pick the good one.

What if you use Wendell Bryant as the defensive example then it changes.

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:30 PM
lol that is true, I was on the Stafford/Sanchez bandwagon, but I am willing to give Cassel a shot, not that it matters...... so your telling me you would take a John Tait or a Robert Gallery over say a Richard Seymour on your defense


Don't get me started. I panned Gallery - Vernon Carey was my top OT prospect that year... ORT specifically.

First of all, your comp is a loaded sack of ####. Tait was a good player. Gallery was a BUST. I could cite Kenneth Sims, for example.

Seymour was a much better prospect than T-Jax.
Monroe is a much better prospect than Tait.


If you want to equal it out, and say Seymour vs. Orlando Pace, sure, that's a question I'll answer.

If you have one but not two OTs of high caliber, you pick PACE. If you have two, you pick Seymour.

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 08:31 PM
Specifically two FIRSTS recently - very few. I would include very expensive FAs too. That list of Super Bowl participants includes

Steelers - Wayne Gandy and Marvel Smith were both Firsts
Rams - Pace was a First, Miller then left for huge bucks in FA
Eagles - Thomas First, Runyan expensive FA
Bucs - Roman Oben 3rd round OLT, Kenyatta Walker FIRST ROUND ORT
Panthers - Jordan Gross FIRST ROUND ORT at the time Todd Steussie FIRST ROUND OLT FA
Titans - Brad Hopkins First Round Jon Runyan 4th round STUD
Raiders - Kennedy FIRST Stinchcomb FIRST

Your argument is all over the freaking place.

First of all, Pace and Gross were drafted to play right tackle only until they made the eventual transition to Left Tackle. That's clearly not the case with the Chiefs.

Second of all, we're talking top 5, even top 10 picks.

Finally, throwing a 4th round RT is completely contrary to the argument.

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:32 PM
only a few of those teams actually won, and going into last season the O-line was not the strength of the Steelers, and a few of them got beat by a Belicheck/Pioli built O-line, which was not made up of high picks or expensive FA's


It is actually an unprecedented time of that. It is also unprecedented how few NFL OLs are really GOOD anymore.

Clearly, the Panthers royally FUed taking ORT Jeff Otah last year. He really hurt their offense big time... .... (when he was out with an ankle only).

DeezNutz
09-02-2009, 08:32 PM
Don't get me started. I panned Gallery - Vernon Carey was my top OT prospect that year... ORT specifically.

First of all, your comp is a loaded sack of ####. Tait was a good player. Gallery was a BUST. I could cite Kenneth Sims, for example.

Seymour was a much better prospect than T-Jax.
Monroe is a much better prospect than Tait.


If you want to equal it out, and say Seymour vs. Orlando Pace, sure, that's a question I'll answer.

If you have one but not two OTs of high caliber, you pick PACE. If you have two, you pick Seymour.

Or you don't pick either a RT or a 34 DE with a top 3 pick, but, hey...

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:34 PM
Most people think the Giants have the best OL in the league they have exactly 0 first round picks on it.

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:35 PM
Using an 80s O-Line as an example has no bearing on the economics of today's free agent, salary cap NFL.



OH BS!!!!!

Rookie contracts aside from the top pick are peanuts. Albert's contract is peanuts vs. the cap. T-Jax is more but still peanuts. You could spend 7 mil on each starter at OL and you'd still have close to 100 mil today.

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:36 PM
All I am trying to say is that you don't take based on need, you take your top player on the board regardless of pos.... if you want to spend all that dough on a couple of tackles and ignore a shitty defense go ahead, I'm not on either side of this argument I wanted a franchise QB with that pick, but I certainly like the Jackson pick a lot more than drafting a right tackle, and btw I would take Seymour over Pace if my team already had a franchise LT

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:37 PM
I'll tell you not using any mid round picks on the OL is a mistake in my view.

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:38 PM
Most people think the Giants have the best OL in the league they have exactly 0 first round picks on it.


It is amazing the job they have done. Snee, McKenzie, and now Beatty are SEconds, but still. WHEW. I never thought O'Hara was anything more than a street caliber FA. Seubert too. Deihl gets beat in pass protection but is just great at run blocking. The way they work as a unit is just awesome. I still don't think any of them as individuals are really that good.

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:39 PM
I'll tell you not using any mid round picks on the OL is a mistake in my view.

oh absolutely, especially over Magee or Washington

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:42 PM
Maybe it's just me but there are numerous positions I'd never use 1st round picks on unless I had 0 needs or the guy was a once in a generation player.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 08:49 PM
You won't give it up will you? WTF dude?

Here's the bottom line. Serviceable RTs are found LOTS of places in addition to the top of the draft. Bottom of the first, midrounds, free agency....Just because the Chiefs did not utilize these OTHER places absolutely positively DOES NOT mean that they should have used the motherfucking THIRD OVERALL PICK ON A RIGHT FUCKING TACKLE.

Tyson Jackson was going to go top 10. Monroe went 8th AS A LEFT TACKLE not as a RIGHT TACKLE. Please for the love of fuck tell me you know the difference between a right and left tackle....PLEASE?

Fact is that left tackles get paid SIGNIFICANTLY more than right tackles. SIGNIFICANTLY. Tack on there that Albert and Monroe would have come due within a year of each other. Monroe will want to be paid like a left tackle. Are you really going to plow 100M into 2 tackle positions?

Fuck it. I went at this blockhead all day yesterday and he's still hammering away.

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:49 PM
Don't get me wrong, I would love a great RT right now, I just don't want one in the first round with the number 3 pick.... The Chiefs were in a shitty position last year, the only real choices at that pick were Raji and Jackson and that's a toss up in my book. If you could find a stop gap FA(which we haven't) for this season and then address the RT with one of our second round picks next year than that would be perfect

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:49 PM
To you, McSUK is a "serviceable" ORT.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:50 PM
It might be worth it if you had money to burn and thought there was going to be no cap.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 08:51 PM
To you, McSUK is a "serviceable" ORT.

To who? Me? I've been wanting Taylor to go in for McIntosh since LAST PRESEASON. Taylor is better at what McIntosh does than McIntosh is.

TFG
09-02-2009, 08:51 PM
"tell me you know the difference between a right and left tackle....PLEASE?"


If the ORT whiffs, that's good - that's your point?

If the OLT is good and the ORT sukks, that's what you want obviously...

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 08:53 PM
"tell me you know the difference between a right and left tackle....PLEASE?"


If the ORT whiffs, that's good - that's your point?

If the OLT is good and the ORT sukks, that's what you want obviously...

Listen. I HATE the Chiefs RT position as much as anybody. Worse than most. BUT just because they did not find a suitable RT in the offseason, DOES NOT mean that they should have dumped a #3 OVERALL on a right tackle.

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 08:54 PM
Nobody is saying that they don't want a good RT, they just dont want to use the 3rd pick of the Draft on one, especially on this team, hey if we had everything in place but the O-line than I would agree with you, but this team is so devoid of talent everywhere that they can't afford to have the luxury of having two franchise Tackles

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:56 PM
I actually think you might start seeing some teams invest more in the RT position with the influx of the 3-4 and the way a team like the Giants is built where there are elite rushers coming from both sides.

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 08:57 PM
I actually think you might start seeing some teams invest more in the RT position with the influx of the 3-4 and the way a team like the Giants is built where there are elite rushers coming from both sides.

But a #3 overall? On a RIGHT tackle?

DeezNutz
09-02-2009, 08:58 PM
I actually think you might start seeing some teams invest more in the RT position with the influx of the 3-4 and the way a team like the Giants is built where there are elite rushers coming from both sides.

He's waffling.

RT #fucking3 FTMFW.

chiefzilla1501
09-02-2009, 08:58 PM
I actually think you might start seeing some teams invest more in the RT position with the influx of the 3-4 and the way a team like the Giants is built where there are elite rushers coming from both sides.

More, but not nearly to the same level. Even if you have rushers from both sides, you still have a tight end on the right side to help chip off a LDE. And it's not the QB's blind side, so he can spot the rush more easily and at least protect the ball better.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 08:59 PM
He's waffling.

RT #fucking3 FTMFW.

LOL ok top 5 is a little much but there is the possibility you'll see teams investing a low 1st or 2nd rounder it a RT.

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 09:00 PM
LOL ok top 5 is a little much but there is the possibility you'll see teams investing a low 1st or 2nd rounder it a RT.

hell lots of teams are trading up out of the second in to the end of the 1st to get a tackle, that's something that I would hope the chiefs consider next year

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 09:00 PM
More, but not nearly to the same level. Even if you have rushers from both sides, you still have a tight end on the right side to help chip off a LDE. And it's not the QB's blind side, so he can spot the rush more easily and at least protect the ball better.

My guess is there will be a shift away from Road Graders at RT and more towards technique guys. That is if the league can find and develop the passrushers necessary to bring the heat from both sides every play.

Beyond that I think you will see more guys like Wes Welker and Steve Smith run short routes and make people miss to get the ball out quicker.

DeezNutz
09-02-2009, 09:01 PM
LOL ok top 5 is a little much but there is the possibility you'll see teams investing a low 1st or 2nd rounder it a RT.

Oh sure. But teams spend late firsts on Cs and Gs, too.

And Ks, if you're the Raiders...

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 09:01 PM
LOL ok top 5 is a little much but there is the possibility you'll see teams investing a low 1st or 2nd rounder it a RT.

Shit several teams did that last year.

CosmicPal
09-02-2009, 09:01 PM
I actually think you might start seeing some teams invest more in the RT position with the influx of the 3-4 and the way a team like the Giants is built where there are elite rushers coming from both sides.

Yep. I was thinking that the other day. An overwhelming majority of QBs are right-handed passers, so teams started getting left tackles to protect their blind sides.

There's a good book I read during the off-season about Michael Oher and it discussed that the left tackle position really didn't gain value until guys like L.T. and our beloved D.T. came into the league and started making QBs very nervous.

With a lot of D's now going to the 3-4, the right tackle position is now becoming valuable as well.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 09:01 PM
At the same time every year good prospects fall due to dumb shit, the problem is do the Chiefs place value on that same dumbshit.

WildTurkey
09-02-2009, 09:03 PM
Oh sure. But teams spend late firsts on Cs and Gs, too.

And Ks, if you're the Raiders...

or they trade up to get a midget corner like the donkeys

Buehler445
09-02-2009, 09:04 PM
or they trade up to get a midget corner like the donkeys

That still cracks me up. Especially if that ends up being a top 10 pick.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 09:04 PM
I will still never figure out how guys like Robinson and Meredith fell as far as they did.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-02-2009, 10:10 PM
The other thing that people are completely overlooking are the economics of scale when it comes to investing in players.

If you take Parcells' theory that there are only so many men on the earth that are a given size with a given athleticism, which nearly every personnel guy does, then you also have to look at the number of teams that will want people of specific builds for their schemes.

With so many teams in the NFL moving to a 3-4, it made identifying and finding talent for the 3-4 precipitously more difficult than in years past. Whereas before you really only had to contend with New England, Pittsburgh, Dallas and to a lesser extent, Baltimore for 3-4 talent, now you also have to worry about:

Miami, Cleveland, San Diego, NYJ, Green Bay, Denver, and San Fran and Arizona run hybrids.

So, you have a huge increase in demand for a relatively fixed asset. That will make 3-4 players more expensive (particularly NTs) and more difficult to find.

Had you stayed in a 4-3, you would have had the same amount of talent, with far fewer suitors, particularly for your linebacking corps.

What the Chiefs, and many other teams have done this year is the exact opposite of Moneyball--they are chasing trends after they've been established rather than being ahead of the curve and getting players with certain skillsets that are undervalued by the demands of the market.

Mecca
09-02-2009, 10:13 PM
Basically what the Chiefs are doing is if you were fantasy drafting and 8 WR's went in front of you, you decided you better take one too.

salame
09-02-2009, 11:25 PM
it's a run on defenses!

Just Passin' By
09-03-2009, 12:43 AM
The fact that they chose to move him to RG in the second week of training camp pretty much tells us that they realized that he can't play RT, and indicates that the selection was a bad one.

Here's where you went off track.

Sweet Daddy Hate
09-03-2009, 09:27 AM
The other thing that people are completely overlooking are the economics of scale when it comes to investing in players.

If you take Parcells' theory that there are only so many men on the earth that are a given size with a given athleticism, which nearly every personnel guy does, then you also have to look at the number of teams that will want people of specific builds for their schemes.

With so many teams in the NFL moving to a 3-4, it made identifying and finding talent for the 3-4 precipitously more difficult than in years past. Whereas before you really only had to contend with New England, Pittsburgh, Dallas and to a lesser extent, Baltimore for 3-4 talent, now you also have to worry about:

Miami, Cleveland, San Diego, NYJ, Green Bay, Denver, and San Fran and Arizona run hybrids.

So, you have a huge increase in demand for a relatively fixed asset. That will make 3-4 players more expensive (particularly NTs) and more difficult to find.

Had you stayed in a 4-3, you would have had the same amount of talent, with far fewer suitors, particularly for your linebacking corps.

What the Chiefs, and many other teams have done this year is the exact opposite of Moneyball--they are chasing trends after they've been established rather than being ahead of the curve and getting players with certain skillsets that are undervalued by the demands of the market.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is quality.

Rep.

Buehler445
09-03-2009, 09:48 AM
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is quality.

Rep.

Other than the improper use of the term "economies of scale". Yeah. Good points there.

I brought it up a few times in that with all the teams switching to 3-4, I have no freaking clue where we are going to get a nose tackle. Especially if Terrance Cody isn't all he's cracked up to be.


I'm not nearly as up to date as Hamas and some other guys out there, but from my understanding, NT is the key. Those are the hardest guys to find.

I've heard that 3-4 OLBs are relatively easy to find. Elite guys like roidman aren't, of course, but from my understanding, it is easier to find servicable guys there than DE and DT.

Also haven't heard too much concern about the secondary other than they have to have better coverage skills than they do in the tampa 2.

I think we ought to be in decent shape personnel wise if we can get a NT. That is assuming Tyler doesn't work out, which is probable.

Also, does anyone know if there are major sticking points for draftees switching from a college 4-3 to a pro 3-4? I know lots of DEs become OLBs and have to learn to play from a 2 point stance.
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keg in kc
09-03-2009, 09:56 AM
I don't think the Chiefs are chasing the trend so much as they're going towards the strengths and preferences of their front office and coaching staff. It just happens that both Pioli and Haley are 3-4 guys, and to go another way would have meant hiring different people. Personally, I'm all for hiring the best guys, regardless of the system they run, which is what I think Clark did, over hiring guys simply because they fit a certain niche, whether it's the 4-3 or the 3-4. Hire the best and let them do what they do best. Which is what's happening. We'll see how well it worked in the next couple of years.

ChiefaRoo
09-03-2009, 10:20 AM
What have YOU got to say, ****Face?

Let's hear it.

Dane, remember the new regime used holdovers from the Carl administration. Most of those people were fired after the draft.

KCDC
09-03-2009, 10:21 AM
Yeah, taking a RT at #3 is too high. Taking TJ was too high there too.

We'd have been better off convincing the Jets to give us the package they sent to the Browns for #5 (Sanchez) and taking an OL at the Jets pick and then having the extra picks.

Nightfyre
09-03-2009, 10:50 AM
Ron Brace in the second round was an amazing pick. I wish we'd have had the forethought to make a move and snag him.

I have to think, given piolis approach to the draft, there is a 2-3 year plan in place.
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
09-03-2009, 03:14 PM
To you, McSUK is a "serviceable" ORT.

To me, that makes you a fucking idiot, and destrroys any credibility you might have had.

But then, that's just me, dumbass.

milkman
09-03-2009, 03:23 PM
Here's where you went off track.

Uh...no I didn't.

They almost certainly had no intention of moving to RG when they drafted him, but inevitably came to the conclusion he can't play RT in the NFL, so they did move him.

They selected a RT but got a RG, at best.

It was bad decision to selct him ahead of other, actual, potential RTs.

the Talking Can
09-03-2009, 04:05 PM
The other thing that people are completely overlooking are the economics of scale when it comes to investing in players.

If you take Parcells' theory that there are only so many men on the earth that are a given size with a given athleticism, which nearly every personnel guy does, then you also have to look at the number of teams that will want people of specific builds for their schemes.

With so many teams in the NFL moving to a 3-4, it made identifying and finding talent for the 3-4 precipitously more difficult than in years past. Whereas before you really only had to contend with New England, Pittsburgh, Dallas and to a lesser extent, Baltimore for 3-4 talent, now you also have to worry about:

Miami, Cleveland, San Diego, NYJ, Green Bay, Denver, and San Fran and Arizona run hybrids.

So, you have a huge increase in demand for a relatively fixed asset. That will make 3-4 players more expensive (particularly NTs) and more difficult to find.

Had you stayed in a 4-3, you would have had the same amount of talent, with far fewer suitors, particularly for your linebacking corps.

What the Chiefs, and many other teams have done this year is the exact opposite of Moneyball--they are chasing trends after they've been established rather than being ahead of the curve and getting players with certain skillsets that are undervalued by the demands of the market.

I'm going to assume you meant to talk about "scarcity" instead of "scale." Otherwise you typed a bunch of gibberish.

And there are way to many variables involved in the league for you argument to be very compelling beyond a general "eh"....even as abstract arguments go, it posses little explanatory power for what we see in the NFL....and I'm not even sure how'd you go about cramming the square peg of "money ball" into the round hole of the NFL....

mostly seems like a hurried excuse to remain vaguely unhappy for reasons I have yet to make sense of....in other words, you fit right in on the Planet as it currently proceeds through a rather ugly case of Post Traumatic Carl syndrome....

but raised on cocks does think it is a brilliant point, which should be a big ass shrieking alarm to anyone's common sense....


edit**

i like you, and respect your opinions, and I'm glad you're back posting...this place is better for it

i'm trying not to be an asshole to everyone (just that clueless fuktard raised on anal rape), or you specifically, but i can't help be befuddled by the shoddy complaining that has absorbed this place ever since we all got what we always said we wanted: a house cleaning and a new way of business..it's like Darwin waching evolution in fast forward as ever more abstract and dubious arguments are born in a furious attempt to be unhappy about the shitty job of getting knee deep in shit and cleaning up a shit pile...


edit***
(and if only there was some way pioli could be informed about parcell's "theories" about the nfl....alas, there seems no way to bring the two together....)

:D

Sweet Daddy Hate
09-03-2009, 04:49 PM
The Talking Clap: I'm going to assume you meant to talk about "scarcity" instead of "scale." Otherwise you typed a bunch of gibberish.

And there are way to many variables involved in the league for you argument to be very compelling beyond a general "eh"....even as abstract arguments go, it posses little explanatory power for what we see in the NFL....and I'm not even sure how'd you go about cramming the square peg of "money ball" into the round hole of the NFL....

mostly seems like a hurried excuse to remain vaguely unhappy for reasons I have yet to make sense of....in other words, you fit right in on the Planet as it currently proceeds through a rather ugly case of Post Traumatic Carl syndrome....

Who's writing gibberish here, you stupid motherfucker? What the fuck is this shit?
Can I get a "Talking Clap to English Dictionary" to decipher your fucking hillbilly Sanskrit?

Go fuck the knothole of an AIDS Tree you stupid cocksucker.

chiefsfan1963
09-04-2009, 12:22 AM
I don't care how they do it just make it happen. Get cassell protection asap!

right now they have not made it happen. if you can't get players from the draft then go free agency, but freakin do it!!!!!!!!!!

DV got it done. He had the best of the best! If he can do it Haley and Pioli should be able to do it.

Make it happen! If you can't make it so. Then get the freak out!!!

salame
09-04-2009, 02:21 AM
they need to hope someone with a deep o-line has to make a cut
and that detroit doesn't snatch them up

the Talking Can
09-06-2009, 04:45 AM
Jamon Meredith was cut yesterday, which makes this thread fucking hilarious to read.



In addition to Brohm, the following players were released: wide receiver Jake Allen, cornerback Trevor Ford, guard/tackle Andrew Hartline, wide receiver Kole Heckendorf, linebacker Danny Lansanah, running back Kregg Lumpkin, defensive end Alfred Malone, wide receiver Ruvell Martin, tackle Jamon Meredith, nose tackle Dean Muhtadi, linebacker Cyril Obiozor, cornerback Joe Porter, tackle Dane Randolph, safety Anthony Smith, running back Tyrell Sutton, defensive end Ronald Talley and nose tackle Anthony Toribio.

http://www.seattlepi.com/scorecard/nflnews.asp?articleID=173686

Hootie
09-06-2009, 05:26 AM
that is HYSTERICAL...

the drafturbators have just been...owned...all offseason...it has been fun to watch...the "know-it-alls" will probably have to consider this an...offseason to forget...

lol

milkman
09-06-2009, 06:05 AM
that is HYSTERICAL...

the drafturbators have just been...owned...all offseason...it has been fun to watch...the "know-it-alls" will probably have to consider this an...offseason to forget...

lol

So, do you think there are players that were cut yesterday that could help this team?