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Taco John
09-16-2009, 05:26 PM
I've always been against federal involvement in public schooling. One of the arguments I get is that states can't be trusted to teach their kids without the assistance of the federal government. Clearly, as reflected by this story, federal government involvement in our schools has made a difference in these kids lives.

It's hard to argue with success.



75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the U.S.

Posted: Sep 16, 2009 10:17 AM PDT

OKLAHOMA CITY - Only one in four public high school students can name the first President of the United States, according to a survey released today.

The survey was commissioned by the Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs in observance of Constitution Day on Thursday.

The Oklahoma City-based think tank enlisted national research firm, Strategic Vision, to access students' basic civic knowledge.

Students were given 10 questions drawn from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services item bank. Candidates for U.S. citizenship must answer six questions correctly in order to become citizens.

About 92 percent of the people who take the citizenship test pass on their first try, according to immigration service data.

However, Oklahoma students did not fare as well. Only about 3 percent of the students surveyed would have passed the citizenship test.


Question Answer % of Students
Who Answered Correctly
What is the supreme law of the land? The Constitution 28
What do we call the first ten amendments to the Constitution? The Bill of Rights 26
What are the two parts of the U.S. Congress? The House and the Senate 27
How many justices are there on the Supreme Court? Nine 10
Who wrote the Declaration of Independence? Thomas Jefferson 14
What ocean is on the east coast of the United States? Atlantic 61
What are the two major political parities in the United States? Democrat and Republican 43
We elect a U.S. senator for how many years? Six 11
Who was the first President of the United States? George Washington 23
Who is in charge of the executive branch? The President 29

http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=11141949

Reaper16
09-16-2009, 05:28 PM
Those questions aren't appearing on standardized tests, or more kids would know.

I do wonder how these questions were administered. Perhaps a number of kids didn't take it seriously and wrote joke answers. Just musing.

banyon
09-16-2009, 05:29 PM
Why didn't they ask private school students?

Saul Good
09-16-2009, 05:30 PM
Why didn't they ask private school students?

The private school students conducted the study.

banyon
09-16-2009, 05:33 PM
The private school students conducted the study.

So that's why they screwed it up without a control group, huh.

Taco John
09-16-2009, 05:33 PM
Why didn't they ask private school students?


It wouldn't be news that private school students know the answers.

Saul Good
09-16-2009, 05:34 PM
So that's why they screwed it up without a control group, huh.

Still, not bad for 2nd graders. I think it was funded by homeschoolers.

banyon
09-16-2009, 05:36 PM
It wouldn't be news that private school students know the answers.

It would, however be a basis for legitimate empirical comparison, as opposed to this study.

Simplex3
09-16-2009, 06:01 PM
It would, however be a basis for legitimate empirical comparison, as opposed to this study.

So your argument is that it's Ok for public school kids to be stupid as long as private school kids are too?

banyon
09-16-2009, 06:03 PM
So your argument is that it's Ok for public school kids to be stupid as long as private school kids are too?

No, my argument is that attributing the failure to being a phenomenon of public schools without any way to control for other variables (i.e., by testing private school kids too) is just invalid as a basis for comparison.

It's pretty basic statistics and correlation knowledge I would think.

Taco John
09-16-2009, 06:10 PM
Anecdotally, do you think that a homeschooler or a private schooler would have a problem naming the first president?

Or do you insist on a complete government sponsored survey to comment?

Jenson71
09-16-2009, 06:12 PM
I wonder what they think the cause of the Civil War was :)

Simplex3
09-16-2009, 06:13 PM
As an aside, my 8 year old knew that Washington was the first President and mentioned that he was on Mt. Rushmore with Lincoln, Jefferson, and Roosevelt. She's in public school.

banyon
09-16-2009, 06:15 PM
Anecdotally, do you think that a homeschooler or a private schooler would have a problem naming the first president?

Yes, at some percentage level. There are plenty of morons who graduate from private schools. I am also not sold on the methodology of this poll. The result seems pretty egregious, particularly since it was sponsored by a Heritage Foundation affiliated group with a partisan desire and agenda to see results skew their way.

Taco John
09-16-2009, 06:16 PM
Yes, at some percentage level. There are plenty of morons who graduate from private schools. I am also not sold on the methodology of this poll. The result seems pretty egregious, particularly since it was sponsored by a Heritage Foundation affiliated group with a partisan desire and agenda to see results skew their way.


"Yes, at some percentage level."

LMAO

Simplex3
09-16-2009, 06:17 PM
Yes, at some percentage level. There are plenty of morons who graduate from private schools. I am also not sold on the methodology of this poll. The result seems pretty egregious, particularly since it was sponsored by a Heritage Foundation affiliated group with a partisan desire and agenda to see results skew their way.

Even with that said, they shouldn't have been able to find a single high school kid that wasn't in a wheelchair, wearing a helmet, and drooling on themselves who didn't know Washington was the first President.

Saul Good
09-16-2009, 06:20 PM
If you want to believe that public schools are in the same realm as private schools or even home schools, I would advise against watching the national spelling bee.

Amnorix
09-16-2009, 06:27 PM
So the federal government is at fault for this? How, they directly administer the schools? They hire and fire the teachers? They appoint the principals and superintendants?

You can argue that public schools suck in general based on this, if the poll was a valid one, but how you hang it exclusively on the fed is beyond me.

Amnorix
09-16-2009, 06:30 PM
If you want to believe that public schools are in the same realm as private schools or even home schools, I would advise against watching the national spelling bee.

Is it the schools, or is it that private school students have a better infrastructure to support them outside of the school itself?

I don't think private schools are worse -- likely not -- but it's hard to ignore that usually private school students are going to have two parents making sure they get their money's worth, that their parents will on average be better educated and more intelligent, and more focused on the importance of a good education. Not to mention better able and more willing to get tutoring to the extent needed to help with problem areas.

VAChief
09-16-2009, 06:55 PM
Is it the schools, or is it that private school students have a better infrastructure to support them outside of the school itself?

I don't think private schools are worse -- likely not -- but it's hard to ignore that usually private school students are going to have two parents making sure they get their money's worth, that their parents will on average be better educated and more intelligent, and more focused on the importance of a good education. Not to mention better able and more willing to get tutoring to the extent needed to help with problem areas.

The biggest advantage to private schools is usually class size and the ability to turn down or kick out undesirable students. Inherently there is no evidence that instruction is better or that the staff is more qualified just because they are private. Most don't require certification. The most exclusive can certainly lure the best graduates, but most are lured by the benefits and money from the best public school districts. The best KU graduates are going to pick Blue Valley or Shawnee Mission over Pembrooke most of the time. They will most likely pick Pembrooke if given the chance over the KCMO school district.

***SPRAYER
09-16-2009, 06:57 PM
So the federal government is at fault for this? How, they directly administer the schools? They hire and fire the teachers? They appoint the principals and superintendants?

The EEOC does.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 09:32 PM
I wonder what they think the cause of the Civil War was :)

most likely slavery but the homeschoolers know better

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 09:33 PM
So your argument is that it's Ok for public school kids to be stupid as long as private school kids are too?

ROFL

Jenson71
09-16-2009, 09:34 PM
most likely slavery but the homeschoolers know better

But can they explain why it's not slavery? I'm still waiting on the other thread.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 09:38 PM
The biggest advantage to private schools is usually class size and the ability to turn down or kick out undesirable students. Inherently there is no evidence that instruction is better or that the staff is more qualified just because they are private. Most don't require certification. The most exclusive can certainly lure the best graduates, but most are lured by the benefits and money from the best public school districts. The best KU graduates are going to pick Blue Valley or Shawnee Mission over Pembrooke most of the time. They will most likely pick Pembrooke if given the chance over the KCMO school district.

Certification is done by private groups and it includes inspection of the buildings etc. It's overrated imo. My kid's school for 9 years refused to be involved in it for non-academic reasons. However, the US Dept of Ed considers it one of the best schools in the country. I have that on video too. There's more awards for the President's Award for Academic Excellence too. ( not that I thrive on that award) They test out 2 years ahead of public school kids too. Some kids that were pulled out by parents for their own reasons, found their kids already knew things the public school kids didn't know by a certain age too.

I agree that the biggest advantage is they can kick out problem kids, discipline without all the PC junk but you also get to choose a school that reflects your values. It's true not all are good. I say that's because many are still trained in the same system....which is what needs reform. And of course the NEA is a major problem in the public school system. However, some private schools are on top of that and insist on some retraining.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 09:41 PM
But can they explain why it's not slavery? I'm still waiting on the other thread.

I explained it. I can't help it if it can't get through some blockheads.

Jenson71
09-16-2009, 09:42 PM
I explained it. I can't help it if it can't get through some blockheads.

That's how I feel!

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 09:43 PM
Please don't derail this thread Jenson.

Amnorix
09-16-2009, 09:46 PM
The EEOC does.

The EEOC does eh? Alllllrighty. Thanks again for your contribution.

Amnorix
09-16-2009, 09:46 PM
most likely slavery but the homeschoolers know better

That Lincoln wanted to do some rapin'?

dougiedav
09-16-2009, 09:55 PM
"I am also not sold on the methodology of this poll. The result seems pretty egregious, particularly since it was sponsored by a Heritage Foundation affiliated group with a partisan desire and agenda to see results skew their way."

I totally agree. There are plenty of people who go/went to public schools and we're getting along just fine!

RJ
09-16-2009, 09:58 PM
My daughter attends a private school. Last year she was in kindergarten. George Washington was a subject of study for about a week. I can say with some degree of certainty that all of those children, now first graders, know who the first president was.

Seriously, if I thought my child would receive as good an education or be as safe in public school as private, I wouldn't spend the money. But take a walk through a private school, then do the same in a public school in the same area, and you'll have no doubt where you want your child to be if you can afford it.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 09:59 PM
I totally agree. There are plenty of people who go/went to public schools and we're getting along just fine!

They're not the same as they once were. Besides, smart kids can get through any school.

RJ
09-16-2009, 10:03 PM
"I am also not sold on the methodology of this poll. The result seems pretty egregious, particularly since it was sponsored by a Heritage Foundation affiliated group with a partisan desire and agenda to see results skew their way."

I totally agree. There are plenty of people who go/went to public schools and we're getting along just fine!


As a parent, it's all about playing the odds. Your kids odds are better in a private school. In a public school, there will always be a percentage of students who have behavioral problems and are disruptive. They'll be there in a private school as well, but in smaller numbers, and the private school can give them the boot if the problems aren't corrected. For me, it's all about giving the kid her best shot. Hopefully she takes advantage of the opportunity.

Rain Man
09-16-2009, 10:05 PM
Yes, at some percentage level. There are plenty of morons who graduate from private schools. I am also not sold on the methodology of this poll. The result seems pretty egregious, particularly since it was sponsored by a Heritage Foundation affiliated group with a partisan desire and agenda to see results skew their way.

I'd be willing to bet that something is screwed up with those results. Looking at the results for the George Washington compared to the results for the other questions, it's questionable that more people know the answer to those other questions than to the George Washington question.

Either that, or many of the Oklahoma students referred instead to Peyton Randolph, the president of the first continental congress in 1774.

Guru
09-16-2009, 10:12 PM
Well, doesn't OU have a horrid graduation rate anyway?

RJ
09-16-2009, 10:12 PM
I'd be willing to bet that something is screwed up with those results. Looking at the results for the George Washington compared to the results for the other questions, it's questionable that more people know the answer to those other questions than to the George Washington question.
.


Maybe, but only two questions were answered better than 40% correct, and only one over 50%. George Washington appears more or less in line with most of them.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 10:14 PM
This test gets verification through Jay Leno's interviews with regular folks on the street.
That's a workable comparison study for me.

RJ
09-16-2009, 10:21 PM
This test gets verification through Jay Leno's interviews with regular folks on the street.
That's a workable comparison study for me.


Do you think those are for real?

Seems like people couldn't really be that stupid.

Right?

banyon
09-16-2009, 10:27 PM
I'd be willing to bet that something is screwed up with those results. Looking at the results for the George Washington compared to the results for the other questions, it's questionable that more people know the answer to those other questions than to the George Washington question.

Either that, or many of the Oklahoma students referred instead to Peyton Randolph, the president of the first continental congress in 1774.

Indeed, or Samuel Huntington, the president under the Articles of Confederation.

banyon
09-16-2009, 10:28 PM
most likely slavery but the homeschoolers know better

You're probably not the best person to lecture people on historical knowledge.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2009, 10:28 PM
Do you think those are for real?

Seems like people couldn't really be that stupid.

Right?

I don't have any evidence to the contrary that they aren't real. That's one reason they're so funny. Although, I was being tic. ( I was hoping to get a rise out of banyon)