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Ultra Peanut
09-18-2009, 03:25 AM
http://redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/sociopathy-right-ayn-rand-and-triumph-conservative-cultism

It is especially fascinating to see the so-called "average, everyday folks" at the tea party rallies embracing Rand's thinking and literature. After all, Rand's view of the common man and woman--presumably the very Joe Six Packs and Hockey Moms recently enthralled by her--was decidedly grotesque. So, for instance, in her original version of her work,We the Living, Rand had her chief protagonist proclaim: "What are your masses...but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it?"

Rand's disdain for the bulk of humanity was, indeed, so extreme that in the aforemetioned Atlas Shrugged--whose main character and "hero" John Galt has been referenced on numerous tea party signs--she indulges a pseudo-genocidal fantasy, in which virtually everyone except Galt and his few "perfect" producers is vanquished. This happy occurrence results from a "strike of the mind," in which Galt and his superior colleagues of industry withdraw their talents from the nation and hole up in a mountain retreat, rather than submit to things like government regulations. Those whom Galt condemns in the book, and thus, whom Rand is herself condemning, are referred to as "parasites" who are unworthy of life. Indeed, Galt's contempt for the weak of the world prompts he and his colleagues to banish the word "give" from their small utopian "gulch." Giving, after all, much like calls for community service, is for suckers.

Even though Galt feels certain that his strike may well kill the vast majority of the world's inhabitants (because they are simply too stupid to survive without he and the other "perfect producers"), he firmly believes, and thus, so does Rand, that this outcome is moral--more so, than say, taxes or charity. In keeping with his strange morality, he not only withdraws his superior talent, but also sabotages the nation's infrastructure (the roads and bridges) thereby making the transport of fuel and grain impossible, resulting in chaos, starvation and general suffering.

This is what the Rand-bots are reading, the vision of society they endorse: one comprised of better people, and decided inferiors, sub-humans even, who are worthy of death for their laziness, their sloth, their lack of industriousness. No wonder people imbued with such a truly sadistic mindset as this would oppose health care reform. To this way of thought, those without health care deserve their suffering, and that suffering should be of no concern to the rest of us.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:58 AM
Ayn Rand sounds like a monster when you blatantly lie about large portions of her story and rip away context of the story from the parts that you come close on.

But who cares what someone named Tim Wise thinks about the book? What do YOU think about the book? Have you even read it, or are you relying on Tim Wise to get it right for you?

You're never going to rip out the thread of individualism that makes up the backbone of this country. Rand's book is an anthem to these individualists, and a caution to the dangers of operating an economy based on fiat rule.

It's true, the story gets a little ridiculous, and Rand writes with a pretty heavy pen, but she does a good job of getting her point across all the same, and nothing that Tim Wise wrote about it even comes close to the mark.

listopencil
09-18-2009, 06:09 AM
Ayn Rand sounds like a monster when you blatantly lie about large portions of her story and rip away context of the story from the parts that you come close on.

But who cares what someone named Tim Wise thinks about the book? What do YOU think about the book? Have you even read it, or are you relying on Tim Wise to get it right for you?

You're never going to rip out the thread of individualism that makes up the backbone of this country. Rand's book is an anthem to these individualists, and a caution to the dangers of operating an economy based on fiat rule.

It's true, the story gets a little ridiculous, and Rand writes with a pretty heavy pen, but she does a good job of getting her point across all the same, and nothing that Tim Wise wrote about it even comes close to the mark.




Have you read "Anthem" by Ayn Rand? Good stuff.


The fallacy in this article is that the author interprets the actions of the characters in Rand's books then assigns those beliefs to her.

Friendo
09-18-2009, 06:17 AM
http://redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/sociopathy-right-ayn-rand-and-triumph-conservative-cultism

I've read it & couldn't agree more. :clap: good post

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 07:47 AM
Ayn Rand wasn't a conservative. She's even dissed libertarians. She's an Objectivist.

Those who hate her views just shows how far to the left they are immersed in the cult of collectivism.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Rand's thought is pretty feeble in the grand scheme of the ethical conversation. Her primary philosophical position -- Objectivism -- is so flawed that it was intellectually ripped into shreds at the hands of a video game (2007's Bioshock).

ChiTown
09-18-2009, 11:42 AM
I've read Atlas Shrugged twice. I love that book.

KC native
09-18-2009, 11:42 AM
Rand's thought is pretty feeble in the grand scheme of the ethical conversation. Her primary philosophical position -- Objectivism -- is so flawed that it was intellectually ripped into shreds at the hands of a video game (2007's Bioshock).

Bioshock was the shit. +1 interwebz for you sir.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 11:51 AM
The concept of individual liberty was ripped to shreds by a video game? Do tell.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 11:52 AM
The concept of individual liberty was ripped to shreds by a video game? Do tell.
That's a facetiously incomplete reading of Objectivism.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 11:53 AM
I've been eyeing Bioshock for a long time. Looks like I'm going to have to finally make the purchase. It will be curious for me to see how the idea of individual liberty gets shredded.

No spoilers please.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 11:54 AM
I've been eyeing Bioshock for a long time. Looks like I'm going to have to finally make the purchase. It will be curious for me to see how the idea of individual liberty gets shredded.

No spoilers please.
Its a fantastic game, even if you disagree with the arguments that the game makes.

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 11:55 AM
My fifteen year old read Atlas Shrugged this winter. She wrote an awesome report on it too. *wonders if it should be posted in this thread*

SNR
09-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Rand's thought is pretty feeble in the grand scheme of the ethical conversation. Her primary philosophical position -- Objectivism -- is so flawed that it was intellectually ripped into shreds at the hands of a video game (2007's Bioshock).Umm... I played Bioshock. I know the game is based around objectivism, but I fail to see how it was "ripped to shreds" in the game.

KC native
09-18-2009, 11:58 AM
I've been eyeing Bioshock for a long time. Looks like I'm going to have to finally make the purchase. It will be curious for me to see how the idea of individual liberty gets shredded.

No spoilers please.

Buy it. It was an awesome shooter.

headsnap
09-18-2009, 12:01 PM
Umm... I played Bioshock. I know the game is based around objectivism, but I fail to see how it was "ripped to shreds" in the game.
and Obamacare gets ripped to shreds by Logan's Run...


oops, time for Carousel..

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 12:03 PM
Umm... I played Bioshock. I know the game is based around objectivism, but I fail to see how it was "ripped to shreds" in the game.
Really? Its kind of obvious. Rapture, in the years before the game starts, was an Objectivist society built under the sea, free from the stifling regulations and controls of religion or government. Completely free-market, individualistic, etc. Well, look at it now. The argument is thus presented in the first ten minutes of the game. (Obviously, it will deal with the subject in a much greater amount of depth as the game progresses).

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 12:06 PM
and Obamacare gets ripped to shreds by Logan's Run...

No it doesn't. No one in support of health care reform is in favor of the government having total control of our bodies, when we die, etc.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 12:12 PM
That's a facetiously incomplete reading of Objectivism.


Then you are misreading objectivism.

Man is inherently a selfish being. This is truth. You are selfish. I am selfish. He is selfish. She is selfish. We can't escape being self-centered. It is our nature for the fact that we're contemplative beings living in a self contained physical apparatus. Objectivism is recognizing that man's inherent nature is to be selfish, and that the laws of liberty should apply to the selfish rich as much as the selfish poor - and that government should show neither favor because when they do, the producers - the individuals with the cutting edge ideas - are the ones who take the most damage. And when they get harmed, ultimately, the whole of society is harmed.

Take away the judgements you have about the word "selfish" and see the word for what it is. People are always going to act in their own self centered best interest. You can't regulate selfishness away with government. The only thing that you accomplish when you try to is more platforms for non-producing self-centered people to operate from. What you get is a system of "pull" where business individuals have to grease the right wheels to find their markets rather than provide the best products and services.

I don't know why I bother to write this. So far, the anti-Rands on this thread haven't offered a single thing except that they play video games that make them feel intellectually superior.

orange
09-18-2009, 12:18 PM
BioShock may have been conceived as a study in nuance, a place for gamers to discover and explore at their own pace, but its dip into the ethical morass of Ayn Rand's objectivist philosophies has brought her beliefs back into the mainstream spotlight and even piqued the interest of the Ayn Rand Institute's president, Yaron Brook.

Brook, a former member of the Israeli Army military intelligence and award-winning finance professor at Santa Clara University, first took notice of the game when he discovered his 18-year-old son playing it. It's a fact that didn't bother Brook despite his son's objectivist beliefs and the game's not so positive take on the philosophy.

"My son has to find his own way in life," he said. "There are certain games I wouldn't want him to play, like Grand Theft Auto, games that celebrate criminality. But a game that might lead him to think and have him challenge his ideas, I'm fine with.

"Luckily for me he doesn't agree with the game, he still seems to believe in objectivism"

....


While in the end, Brook doesn't agree with what he believes to be the anti-objectivism tone of the game, he still sees it as a good think for the Ayn Rand Institute and objectivism.

"There have been a lot of people writing about the game and its connection to Ayn Rand," he said. And that's a good thing "in a sense, if you believe that any publicity is good publicity because it creates a level of curiosity and sends people to read the books. We probably had more kids going to read the book because of the video game.

"I think there is a certain benefit. Ultimately it doesn't portray objectivism well, but the mainstreaming of objectivism is important too. And it's important to see the willingness to debate those ideas even in a video game."

http://kotaku.com/354717/no-gods-or-kings-objectivism-in-bioshock

Taco John
09-18-2009, 12:22 PM
No it doesn't. No one in support of health care reform is in favor of the government having total control of our bodies, when we die, etc.


Not now they're not. Nobody's talking about what happens if there is a budget crisis right now.

Atlas Shrugged is a great book to read if you want to get a view of how the healthcare system is currently, and increasingly will be run if the government gets more control. This crisis gets that reaction. Another crisis, another reaction. And with each subsequent reaction another crisis is born,a nd another reaction until the system is so tangled that large parts of it stop working.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 12:24 PM
BioShock may have been conceived as a study in nuance, a place for gamers to discover and explore at their own pace, but its dip into the ethical morass of Ayn Rand's objectivist philosophies has brought her beliefs back into the mainstream spotlight and even piqued the interest of the Ayn Rand Institute's president, Yaron Brook.

Brook, a former member of the Israeli Army military intelligence and award-winning finance professor at Santa Clara University, first took notice of the game when he discovered his 18-year-old son playing it. It's a fact that didn't bother Brook despite his son's objectivist beliefs and the game's not so positive take on the philosophy.

"My son has to find his own way in life," he said. "There are certain games I wouldn't want him to play, like Grand Theft Auto, games that celebrate criminality. But a game that might lead him to think and have him challenge his ideas, I'm fine with.

"Luckily for me he doesn't agree with the game, he still seems to believe in objectivism"

....


While in the end, Brook doesn't agree with what he believes to be the anti-objectivism tone of the game, he still sees it as a good think for the Ayn Rand Institute and objectivism.

"There have been a lot of people writing about the game and its connection to Ayn Rand," he said. And that's a good thing "in a sense, if you believe that any publicity is good publicity because it creates a level of curiosity and sends people to read the books. We probably had more kids going to read the book because of the video game.

"I think there is a certain benefit. Ultimately it doesn't portray objectivism well, but the mainstreaming of objectivism is important too. And it's important to see the willingness to debate those ideas even in a video game."

http://kotaku.com/354717/no-gods-or-kings-objectivism-in-bioshock



I don't care what any liberal here says about Objectivism - that is a great parent that anybody would have loved to have had. Soak it in haters - read what he said about how he was raising his kid. Sounds like a really evil guy doesn't it?

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 12:25 PM
Reaper, what the govt funds it eventually controls. You cannot have freedom if you have the govt funding such things. It's inevitable.
This will move into sin or health taxes to control behavior for cost cutting to prevent overuse of the system. It's already started.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 12:27 PM
I absolutely love the objectivist response in that article.

"Hey, they didn't portray us well, but you know what - it gives people the opportunity to think and be exposed to new thoughts, and let the marketplace of ideas sort it out individual by individual."

EVIL!

Taco John
09-18-2009, 12:28 PM
Umm... I played Bioshock. I know the game is based around objectivism, but I fail to see how it was "ripped to shreds" in the game.

I beg for people to use spoiler tags if this discussion goes anywhere. I definitely will review this thread once I get the game and play it.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 01:15 PM
I absolutely love the objectivist response in that article.

"Hey, they didn't portray us well, but you know what - it gives people the opportunity to think and be exposed to new thoughts, and let the marketplace of ideas sort it out individual by individual."

EVIL!
That's an absurd strawman. I don't think that you or BEP are evil.

JohnnyV13
09-18-2009, 02:23 PM
Reaper, what the govt funds it eventually controls. You cannot have freedom if you have the govt funding such things. It's inevitable.
This will move into sin or health taxes to control behavior for cost cutting to prevent overuse of the system. It's already started.

I actually think POSITIVE incentives to REWARD good health maintanence behavior is a good idea for health care insurance. But, goverment's concept is "sin" tax which purports to improve behavior by punishment, but really seems more focused on increasing government revenue.

I despise the proposed taxes on "cadillac" insurance plans. That's punishing people for deciding to buy very good coverage, then shifting that coverage to people without it. That's health rationing right there. And, I haven't really heard any rationalization for those taxes on cadillac plans.

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 02:25 PM
I actually think POSITIVE incentives to REWARD good health maintanence behavior is a good idea for health care insurance. But, goverment's concept is "sin" tax which purports to improve behavior by punishment, but really seems more focused on increasing government revenue.

The problem I have is only when it's a govt, especially our govt, doing it. It's anti-liberty and totalitarianish.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-18-2009, 02:44 PM
I will refer to my prior statement on Rand:

No, it just happens to be a sentiment I agree with, regardless of who said it.

Rand is intellectually bankrupt. Her entire philosophy is based upon binarism and selfishness. It ignores any pretense of nuance. It's lazy armchair philosophy that is easily digestable due to its simplicity, but ultimately vapid. It's attractive to people who don't like to perform due diligence because you can be completely self-involved and sociopathic and adhere to it flawlessly.

Just do whatever benefits yourself. Most of us got past that in pre-school, when we actually learned social skills, since we live in a society, and aren't just a collection of individuals trying to kill and fuck everything that isn't us.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 03:00 PM
That's an absurd strawman. I don't think that you or BEP are evil.


I was addressing the strawman created by the original post.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 03:07 PM
No, it just happens to be a sentiment I agree with, regardless of who said it.

Rand is intellectually bankrupt. Her entire philosophy is based upon binarism and selfishness...

It's absolutely true that her philosophy is based around the reality of selfishness. Absolutely true.



It ignores any pretense of nuance.

Not in the least. This is patently false. The existence of this thread and my rebuttal to it is proof of nuance. Rand cannot accept responsibility for you not understanding the nuance.




It's lazy armchair philosophy that is easily digestable due to its simplicity, but ultimately vapid. It's attractive to people who don't like to perform due diligence because you can be completely self-involved and sociopathic and adhere to it flawlessly.

This is the opposite of what's true. Diligence is everything in the Randian philosophy, let alone "due" diligence. Your rebuttal is what is turning out to be ultimately vapid.


Just do whatever benefits yourself. Most of us got past that in pre-school, when we actually learned social skills, since we live in a society, and aren't just a collection of individuals trying to kill and **** everything that isn't us.

Your review of the philosophy is very superficial and lacking in any amount of depth. I suspect that it's actually an aggregation of what you've read on whatever Liberal websites you visit, and not actually based on your own examination of the book.

I have a hard time believing any liberal leaning person in this thread has read the book, based on the airy responses we've seen so far.

I guess the Rand Institute needs to create a video game.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-18-2009, 03:15 PM
It's absolutely true that her philosophy is based around the reality of selfishness. Absolutely true.





Not in the least. This is patently false. The existence of this thread and my rebuttal to it is proof of nuance. Rand cannot accept responsibility for you not understanding the nuance.






This is the opposite of what's true. Diligence is everything in the Randian philosophy, let alone "due" diligence. Your rebuttal is what is turning out to be ultimately vapid.




Your review of the philosophy is very superficial and lacking in any amount of depth. I suspect that it's actually an aggregation of what you've read on whatever Liberal websites you visit, and not actually based on your own examination of the book.

I have a hard time believing any liberal leaning person in this thread has read the book, based on the airy responses we've seen so far.

I guess the Rand Institute needs to create a video game.

Would you like to know the easiest way to completely disembowel Rand's philosophy?

Her concept of rational egoism, where the individual "must exist for himself and only for himself, not sacrificing himself for others or others for himself."

Now, apply that to her belief that laissez-faire capitalism is the only just and moral economic philosophy.

This is an economic system, that as a part of its very existence relies on the fact that some must be tread upon, or subjugated, so that others can gain. It cannot function unless some fail and some succeed. And sadly, those who succeed always do so at the expense of those who fail. This country was built on the back of slave, migrant, and lower class labor. This country prospered after it fettered away its own resources by exploiting the resources of other nations, and allowing an unregulated system to run amok.

Now, how can one support an economic system that relies on zero sum theory, and yet also support a philosophical system that states one must exist for one's self, and not subjugate others?

It's hypocritical tripe. Nonsense.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 03:19 PM
I have a hard time believing any liberal leaning person in this thread has read the book, based on the airy responses we've seen so far.

I guess the Rand Institute needs to create a video game.
I've definitely read Rand; I took a lot of philosophy classes in college. I think Objectivism is built upon some very valuable ideas but taken to an extreme, unsustainable end.

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 03:23 PM
Ayn Rand wasn't a conservative.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 03:24 PM
Ayn Rand wasn't a conservative.
Certainly not.

Jenson71
09-18-2009, 03:26 PM
I've definitely read Rand; I took a lot of philosophy classes in college. I think Objectivism is built upon some very valuable ideas but taken to an extreme, unsustainable end.

The lieberal professors probably gave you fair and balanced as good as Keith Olberman!

Jenson71
09-18-2009, 03:40 PM
The lieberal professors probably gave you fair and balanced as good as Keith Olberman!

I 'un care who y'are dats funny righ' dhar.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 03:43 PM
The lieberal professors probably gave you fair and balanced as good as Keith Olberman!
The liberal bias was readily apparent in my English classes (most of them, anyway). Not so in the philosophy classes.

Ultra Peanut
09-18-2009, 03:57 PM
http://i36.tinypic.com/2ed08qd.jpg

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 04:02 PM
Certainly not.

But UP's thread title makes it so. So I had to point it out.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:05 PM
Would you like to know the easiest way to completely disembowel Rand's philosophy?

Her concept of rational egoism, where the individual "must exist for himself and only for himself, not sacrificing himself for others or others for himself."

Now, apply that to her belief that laissez-faire capitalism is the only just and moral economic philosophy.

This is an economic system, that as a part of its very existence relies on the fact that some must be tread upon, or subjugated, so that others can gain. It cannot function unless some fail and some succeed. And sadly, those who succeed always do so at the expense of those who fail. This country was built on the back of slave, migrant, and lower class labor. This country prospered after it fettered away its own resources by exploiting the resources of other nations, and allowing an unregulated system to run amok.

Now, how can one support an economic system that relies on zero sum theory, and yet also support a philosophical system that states one must exist for one's self, and not subjugate others?

It's hypocritical tripe. Nonsense.



I bolded the part that the liberal critique, and especially this one, always missed when discussing Rand's work. As far as your critique of capitalism, you and other liberals always miss the part where people CHOOSE to work, and are not forced into it.

We're going to have differences on how you're applying the word "subjugate." You're making it sound as if people who get hired are slaves who are there against their own will. This is not the case. These people had to apply for a job in order to achieve it.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 04:05 PM
But UP's thread title makes it so. So I had to point it out.
We are seeing a rise of conservatives & neoconservatives professing a liking of Rand and adopting incomplete parts of her thinking to their worldviews.

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 04:06 PM
We're going to have differences on how you're applying the word "subjugate." You're making it sound as if people who get hired are slaves who are there against their own will. This is not the case. These people had to apply for a job in order to achieve it.

It's typical commie rhetoric...'er anarchist socialist that is.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:09 PM
We are seeing a rise of conservatives & neoconservatives professing a liking of Rand and adopting incomplete parts of her thinking to their worldviews.

Indeed. Government run amok.

But it's your philosophy that puts them in so much power, not Rand's.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 04:09 PM
I bolded the part that the liberal critique, and especially this one, always missed when discussing Rand's work. As far as your critique of capitalism, you and other liberals always miss the part where people CHOOSE to work, and are not forced into it.

We're going to have differences on how you're applying the word "subjugate." You're making it sound as if people who get hired are slaves who are there against their own will. This is not the case. These people had to apply for a job in order to achieve it.
What's the alternative to finding life-sustaining employment, especially in a hypothetical system without social safety nets? Yeah, they choose to work... because people enjoy buying food and shelter.

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 04:10 PM
We are seeing a rise of conservatives & neoconservatives professing a liking of Rand and adopting incomplete parts of her thinking to their worldviews.

Yeah, the neoconservatives aren't really Randians either.
But RR said libertarianism is at the heart of conservatism....which I think is true. Just the heart. I'd say a libertarian is a more extreme version of that as in it favors even less govt. So conservatives part ways with it on social issues. Not so much the economic ones. In fact many conservatives accept things from the early progressives on work week/hours etc. They just don't like the continuous adding things on because it stifles economic growth and prosperity.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:11 PM
What's the alternative to finding life-sustaining employment, especially in a hypothetical system without social safety nets? Yeah, they choose to work... because people enjoy buying food and shelter.


Whose job is it to provide the alternatives? Who is providing the alternatives? It certainly isn't government. They're just making it more difficult for alternative providers to exist.

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 04:12 PM
What's the alternative to finding life-sustaining employment, especially in a hypothetical system without social safety nets? Yeah, they choose to work... because people enjoy buying food and shelter.

Hypothetical system? We didn't have social safety nets before the 1930's at the federal level.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 04:13 PM
Whose job is it to provide the alternatives? Who is providing the alternatives? It certainly isn't government. They're just making it more difficult for alternative providers to exist.
What do those alternatives even look like?

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:20 PM
What do those alternatives even look like?


That depends on the skill set that you have, doesn't it? For me, I have the option to work for my company, or any number of comany's who would like to bid on my services. For someone with the skill set of a mechanic, they can work for whatever shop will bid their services. There are about a billion alternatives, including finding a niche of your own for your services, and filling it with everything you've got. This last one is particularly lucrative, and are among the central heroes in Rand's work.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:22 PM
Let me ask a counter question now:

Whose responsibility is it if someone doesn't have any marketable skills?

Jenson71
09-18-2009, 04:23 PM
I want to know if humans really are that selfish. I remember most vividly in Atlas Shrugged, which I read several years ago, the coldness between the main lady and her brother.

Is selfishness something we need to accept, even it's even a focal part of the human condition? Is it something that we should embrace? Promote a system of economics based around its promotion?

BucEyedPea
09-18-2009, 04:29 PM
I want to know if humans really are that selfish. I remember most vividly in Atlas Shrugged, which I read several years ago, the coldness between the main lady and her brother.

Is selfishness something we need to accept, even it's even a focal part of the human condition? Is it something that we should embrace? Promote a system of economics based around its promotion?

Quit running your religion on everyone. It's none of the govt's business how selfish someone is.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 04:30 PM
Let me ask a counter question now:

Whose responsibility is it if someone doesn't have any marketable skills?
That's a large question. Because there is a difference between having no marketable skills and having no skills. One would love to think that its a purely individual error that would result in someone having no marketable skills, but when thousands upon thousands of people end up in the same position then there is probably a systemic problem somewhere.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:32 PM
I want to know if humans really are that selfish.

Yes. Every human is a self-centered, "self"-ish being by nature. Every human acts in according to what makes themselves feel good. Osama, Mother Teresa, You. They all operate on the same principle: what action can I take that will make me feel good about (insert situation).



Is selfishness something we need to accept, even it's even a focal part of the human condition? Is it something that we should embrace? Promote a system of economics based around its promotion?

How can you reject selfishness? An orange is orange. You can't say, "can we accept the orangeness of this orange?" It's orange. You don't have a choice but to accept it. No amount of legislation is going to change the orange nature of that orange.

This is the fundamental failure of socialism, and why liberty will always be where the water runs down hill towards.

You conflate the word "selfishness" into meaning something bad.

Taco John
09-18-2009, 04:34 PM
That's a large question. Because there is a difference between having no marketable skills and having no skills. One would love to think that its a purely individual error that would result in someone having no marketable skills, but when thousands upon thousands of people end up in the same position then there is probably a systemic problem somewhere.


Systemic problem indeed. This is what I've been talking about all along.

Dependancy is teachable to generation after generation. Government creates this problem, and then starts laying blame everywhere else until we have millions of dollars going into research to find out that the problem is that motivated people make more money than unmotivated people.

Jenson71
09-18-2009, 04:41 PM
Yes. Every human is a self-centered, "self"-ish being by nature. Every human acts in according to what makes themselves feel good. Osama, Mother Teresa, You. They all operate on the same principle: what action can I take that will make me feel good about (insert situation).

How can you reject selfishness? An orange is orange. You can't say, "can we accept the orangeness of this orange?" It's orange. You don't have a choice but to accept it. No amount of legislation is going to change the orange nature of that orange.

This is the fundamental failure of socialism, and why liberty will always be where the water runs down hill towards.

You conflate the word "selfishness" into meaning something bad.

I'm not convinced that we all operate on the principle: what action can I take that will make me feel good about (insert situation). It's not like being an orange being an orange.

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 04:47 PM
Systemic problem indeed. This is what I've been talking about all along.

Dependancy is teachable to generation after generation. Government creates this problem, and then starts laying blame everywhere else until we have millions of dollars going into research to find out that the problem is that motivated people make more money than unmotivated people.
So any government intervention into anything is the start of a downward spiral to dependency, I take it? There are always going to be haves and have-nots, even in a Laissez faire system.

|Zach|
09-18-2009, 04:51 PM
I've read Atlas Shrugged twice. I love that book.

Its been years and years. For sure.

FishingRod
09-18-2009, 05:00 PM
I want to know if humans really are that selfish. I remember most vividly in Atlas Shrugged, which I read several years ago, the coldness between the main lady and her brother.

Is selfishness something we need to accept, even it's even a focal part of the human condition? Is it something that we should embrace? Promote a system of economics based around its promotion?

In the context of Atlas Shrugged,
Did you perceive those that created and produced that resented being asked to support others on the back of their labor or those that chose not to produce but expected to be taken care of as selfish?
It is an interesting argument.


Those of us that are parents try to teach our children the skills necessary to make it in life, be self supportive and to be decent members of society. We bail our children out when they screw up but we have all seen children that never become anything because all is provided for them. They never suffer consequences of their actions and never lean because Mom and Dad will always be their to fix what ever stupid thing they have done.

Have a great weekend all I am out

Reaper16
09-18-2009, 05:06 PM
In the context of Atlas Shrugged,
Did you perceive those that created and produced that resented being asked to support others on the back of their labor or those that chose not to produce but expected to be taken care of as selfish?
It is an interesting argument.


Those of us that are parents try to teach our children the skills necessary to make it in life, be self supportive and to be decent members of society. We bail our children out when they screw up but we have all seen children that never become anything because all is provided for them. They never suffer consequences of their actions and never lean because Mom and Dad will always be their to fix what ever stupid thing they have done.

Have a great weekend all I am out
Was it your intention to compare the impoverished with spoiled children?

VAChief
09-18-2009, 06:05 PM
I liked Atlas Shrugged, but it is as utopian a viewpoint as that which it derides in my opinion. It presents a viewpoint that has great value as an aspiration.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-18-2009, 06:41 PM
I bolded the part that the liberal critique, and especially this one, always missed when discussing Rand's work. As far as your critique of capitalism, you and other liberals always miss the part where people CHOOSE to work, and are not forced into it.

Your "choice" of work is a false choice. Ask people in a country without a social welfare system what choice they really have.

Ultra Peanut
09-18-2009, 07:37 PM
So any government intervention into anything is the start of a downward spiral to dependency, I take it? There are always going to be haves and have-nots, even in a Laissez faire system.As a wise man once said, "The free market is the best way of doing things until you cause it to cease to exist by being mean to it or looking at it the wrong way."

banyon
09-18-2009, 08:22 PM
Ayn Rand sounds like a monster when you blatantly lie about large portions of her story and rip away context of the story from the parts that you come close on.

But who cares what someone named Tim Wise thinks about the book? What do YOU think about the book? Have you even read it, or are you relying on Tim Wise to get it right for you?

You're never going to rip out the thread of individualism that makes up the backbone of this country. Rand's book is an anthem to these individualists, and a caution to the dangers of operating an economy based on fiat rule.

It's true, the story gets a little ridiculous, and Rand writes with a pretty heavy pen, but she does a good job of getting her point across all the same, and nothing that Tim Wise wrote about it even comes close to the mark.

What were the blatant "lies" in the OP?

banyon
09-18-2009, 08:30 PM
That depends on the skill set that you have, doesn't it? For me, I have the option to work for my company, or any number of comany's who would like to bid on my services. For someone with the skill set of a mechanic, they can work for whatever shop will bid their services. There are about a billion alternatives, including finding a niche of your own for your services, and filling it with everything you've got. This last one is particularly lucrative, and are among the central heroes in Rand's work.

http://de.indymedia.org/2009/03/243664.shtml

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/forestpolicy/96o7qua2gtnDdDMPMwFxMnltsQvrgMEhFZCuxXL1zGY4wTAURweJ7FO4s8Fw/Nigeria.jpg.scaled.500.jpg

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/forestpolicy/5Sw7fKyKXcQvlbhBMgDdS0cajGc3ESCKXRKUyqXmhzqCzKGbGtvzta6eXdm5/Nigeria_womens_right_demo.jpg

Twenty-thousand villagers in southwestern Nigeria face starvation and disease epidemics because their forest and lands have been taken from them in an illegal deal and bulldozed for rubber plantations. Their women are asking us to help with our signatures.
The French transnational corporation Michelin, the world’s second largest producer of tires, was granted rights to more than 3,500 hectares of land in Nigeria’s Iguobazuwa Forest Reserve, including individual and communal farmlands. There was no consultation with local communities.

Iguobazuwa Forest Reserve, located in Edo State in southwestern Nigeria, used to be described as one of the forest and biodiversity-rich regions of Nigeria. More than 20,000 farming people live around Iguobazuwa. They depend on the forest for their daily livelihoods and used to have land to farm around the forests.

When Michelin arrived, it bulldozed the 3,500 hectares of forests and the people’s farmlands. From one day to the next both sources of their livelihood – their forest and farmlands – were completely destroyed. Iguobazuwa communities lost everything.

Communities face serious threats from food shortages and health risks due to an outbreak of epidemics as a result of the extinction of local medicinal plants, resulting from Michelin’s destruction of their forests.

Various members of the communities have made many attempts to make their voices heard, to no avail.

Women, tired of being passive, have decided to raise their voices and make their demands heard by the authorities and Michelin and are determined to get their lands back.

The women say they won’t stop protesting until their land is given back, every tree felled is replanted and full compensation for the crops destroyed is given. They know it is not an easy path and that they need international support.

Please sign up ( http://www.regenwald.org/international/englisch/index.php) to send the following letter prepared by the World Rainforest Movement (WRM) to the Nigerian government and to Michelin’s offices, enclosed below:

Re:
NO tires at the expense of forests and people’s livelihoods

Protest letter
 Honourable Minister, Federal Ministry of Environment, Housing and Urban Development, Nigeria.
 Honourable Minister, Federal Ministry of Agriculture & Water Resources, Nigeria.
 Chairman, Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nigeria.
 Chairman, House Committee on Environment, Federal House of Representatives, Nigeria.
 Governor Adams Oshiomhole, Edo state, Nigeria.
 Chairman, House Committee on Environment, Edo state House of Assembly, Nigeria.

With copy to:
 The Director, Michelin Nigeria Limited, Nigeria.


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am deeply concerned about the recent deforestation of more than 3,500 hectares of land at the Iguobazuwa Forest Reserve located in Ovia South West Local Government Area of Edo state, Nigeria.

I have been informed that this land was allocated without due process on the eve of former Governor Lucky Igbinedion’s exit from office (29th May, 2007), to the France-based company Michelin to set up rubber plantations (they also own the Osse River Rubber Estate Company). The decision was taken without consulting the more than 20,000 people in communities surrounding Iguobazuwa Forest Reserve, whose lives and livelihoods depend on those forests and forest lands.

The company entered the area and bulldozed not only the 3,500 hectares of forest but also individual and local communities’ farmlands which were their main source of food. Local communities are now facing serious threats linked both to food shortages and to an outbreak of epidemics as a result of the extinction of local medicinal plants destroyed by Michelin’s conversion of their forests to rubber plantations.

With this letter I would like to express my strong condemnation to Michelin for destroying these people’s livelihoods. At the same time, we request the Nigerian government including the current Governor of Edo state under the leadership of Adams Oshiomhole to review the sale of Iguobazuwa forest reserve, to support the local people’s demands and to make Michelin give their lands back to them, replant every tree felled and pay full compensation to all the affected community people whose crops were destroyed.

Looking forward to your answer.

Yours sincerely,

Start your auto shops you lazy f*cks! C'mon Taco is great and he can do it and all he had was a privliged American upbringing and education, why can't you!!!? :cuss:

banyon
09-18-2009, 08:35 PM
Also, why are you guys always b*tching about taxes and such if you can just choose to increase your income so easily and there are a billion ways to do it?