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T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:05 AM
I remember when Gun was HC and got lost in the details because he couldn't delegate. Not trying to compare Haley/Gun, but I can't help but wonder if we'd fare better bringing someone in to call the plays.

I have no idea who's available, but today's game does make me wonder if a young HC should really be calling the plays. Of course, anyone coming in would have to stick with Haley's playbook at this point. What say you?

chiefbowe82
09-21-2009, 12:07 AM
yes-gailey

petegz28
09-21-2009, 12:07 AM
Our offense moved the ball fine today. Even battled through some penalties. A new HC isn't going to keep Casel from making a stupid decision or a guy from holding. Those are things players have to fix themselves.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:08 AM
yes-gailey

I think that ship has sailed.;)

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:09 AM
Our offense moved the ball fine today. Even battled through some penalties. A new HC isn't going to keep Casel from making a stupid decision or a guy from holding. Those are things players have to fix themselves.

I get your point, but I think it's quite possible that Haley might have had an opportunity to make better decisisons if his attention wasn't being pulled in so many directions. I would NOT want to call the offense if I was a first year HC in the NFL.

Count Alex's Losses
09-21-2009, 12:11 AM
No. He did a wonderful job calling the plays today. Absolutely spectacular.

chiefbowe82
09-21-2009, 12:13 AM
at the end of the day..it was two let downs by the defense on the opponets last drive the past two weeks, that lost kc the game.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:16 AM
No. He did a wonderful job calling the plays today. Absolutely spectacular.

The snafu at the 1st half doesn't bother you? I missed all the post-game coverage: did we find out if the pass to the RB was the first read on that play? Haley's facial expression suggested otherwise, but I haven't heard anything.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:18 AM
at the end of the day..it was two let downs by the defense on the opponets last drive the past two weeks, that lost kc the game.

Yes & no, a field goal at the end of the first half would have put us into OT.

Count Alex's Losses
09-21-2009, 12:20 AM
The snafu at the 1st half doesn't bother you? I missed all the post-game coverage: did we find out if the pass to the RB was the first read on that play? Haley's facial expression suggested otherwise, but I haven't heard anything.

I personally believe there is no fucking way they intended to get Savage the ball in the flat.

That is just absurd. 12 year olds who play Madden know better. You think Haley doesn't?

COME ON.

chiefbowe82
09-21-2009, 12:22 AM
if only legget gets that onside, if only flowers gets that pick 6, if only the ref doesn't throw that flag, if only we don't get penalized every time we get good yards, if only cassel doesn't screw up right before half, if only we don't turn it over twice, if only we don't let them go 70 yards with 3 penalties along the way and letting them convert a 3rd and 15, if only we'd catch more balls..........we got to stop fucking up opportunities god damnit

chiefbowe82
09-21-2009, 12:23 AM
I personally believe there is no ****ing way they intended to get Savage the ball in the flat.

That is just absurd. 12 year olds who play Madden know better. You think Haley doesn't?

COME ON.

change your quote

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:24 AM
I personally believe there is no ****ing way they intended to get Savage the ball in the flat.

That is just absurd. 12 year olds who play Madden know better. You think Haley doesn't?

COME ON.

I would hope that you're right, but nothing surprises me anymore. [Well, maybe that onside kick today...] Did Haley or anyone else give a postgame explanation for that pass to Savage?

BossChief
09-21-2009, 12:25 AM
They said when Chan was let go that he would be brought back in some capacity.

question:

is it possible Haley is using a motivational firing on Chan, ala Bowe, DJ etc.?

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:26 AM
They said when Chan was let go that he would be brought back in some capacity.

question:

is it possible Haley is using a motivational firing on Chan, ala Bowe, DJ etc.?


I'd guess "no" on that one.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:27 AM
No. He did a wonderful job calling the plays today. Absolutely spectacular.

You need to stop smokin' crack

Micjones
09-21-2009, 12:27 AM
I don't think the playcalling was a problem today, but I do think he should delegate that responsibility. Mo Carthon can call Haley-esque plays.

Count Alex's Losses
09-21-2009, 12:28 AM
You need to stop smokin' crack

Admit it: at no point this week did you expect 400 yards from the offense.

And I know one thing: based on your evaluation of our talent base, there is no way you can credit them solely for that production.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:28 AM
No, an offensive coordinator should NOT be hired at this time.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:29 AM
Admit it: at no point this week did you expect 400 yards from the offense.

And I know one thing: based on your evaluation of our talent base, there is no way you can credit them solely for that production.

400 yards doesn't mean jackshit if you only score 10 points and don't win the fucking game.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:29 AM
I don't think the playcalling was a problem today, but I do think he should delegate that responsibility. Mo Carthon can call Haley-esque plays.

That's right.

Carthon's proven that he can coordinate the worst offense in the league several times.

Count Alex's Losses
09-21-2009, 12:33 AM
400 yards doesn't mean jackshit if you only score 10 points and don't win the fucking game.

Execution is not on the coaching staff. It's on the players.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:34 AM
That's right.

Carthon's proven that he can coordinate the worst offense in the league several times.
...
No, an offensive coordinator should NOT be hired at this time.


Are you saying that you believe that Haley is the best solution for the OC at this time? More so than Carthon?

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:41 AM
Well I got my answer. Hopefully, Cassel will shake the rust off and make better decisions through the season.

“The play was kind of designed (to go into the end zone), but it just didn’t work out,” Cassel said. “Unfortunately, that’s something that I’ve got to take responsibility for and throw that ball away or do something to (keep) us in field-goal range.”

Haley said: “It’s an out-of-bounds or incomplete situation. If the ball is completed, it must be out of bounds, or if it’s not, the ball has to be incomplete, whether it’s intentionally dropped or not thrown. That’s stuff that can’t happen.”

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:42 AM
Are you saying that you believe that Haley is the best solution for the OC at this time? More so than Carthon?

Over Carthon? Are you kidding me?

Absolutely.

Do you know Carthon's track record in Cleveland and Detroit?

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:42 AM
Execution is not on the coaching staff. It's on the players.

Sure it is.

Same thing when Herm was head coach, right?

LOLATKC
09-21-2009, 12:44 AM
No, he should hire some good players.

Buehler445
09-21-2009, 12:46 AM
No, an offensive coordinator should NOT be hired at this time.

OK, I'll bite, why?

If he hires a young guy that does exactly what he wants and knows his ass from a hole in the ground, it can be OK.

Count Alex's Losses
09-21-2009, 12:49 AM
Sure it is.

Same thing when Herm was head coach, right?

Well, no. Our playcalling was brutally stupid under Herm.

Count Alex's Losses
09-21-2009, 12:49 AM
Well I got my answer. Hopefully, Cassel will shake the rust off and make better decisions through the season.

“The play was kind of designed (to go into the end zone), but it just didn’t work out,” Cassel said. “Unfortunately, that’s something that I’ve got to take responsibility for and throw that ball away or do something to (keep) us in field-goal range.”

Haley said: “It’s an out-of-bounds or incomplete situation. If the ball is completed, it must be out of bounds, or if it’s not, the ball has to be incomplete, whether it’s intentionally dropped or not thrown. That’s stuff that can’t happen.”

There you go.

Cassel fucked it up.

Haley is completely exonerated and Mecca needs to come in here and own up.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:50 AM
Over Carthon? Are you kidding me?

Absolutely.

Do you know Carthon's track record in Cleveland and Detroit?

It wasn't good, but I don't know any of the details on why it wasn't good. And I don't know how this situation would relate to Carthon's experiences with those other franchises.

My first instinct is to issue a free pass for anyone coming out of a Matt Millen run organization. Honestly, I don't know much about the Browns recent coaching/front office history. I'll take your word on Carthon's suckage if you are that certain about it.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:51 AM
OK, I'll bite, why?

If he hires a young guy that does exactly what he wants and knows his ass from a hole in the ground, it can be OK.

I don't think that now is the time. After the season? Absolutely.

I just think that Haley's time is better spend preparing, not interviewing a coach "off the street".

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:52 AM
It wasn't good, but I don't know any of the details on why it wasn't good. And I don't know how this situation would relate to Carthon's experiences with those other franchises.

My first instinct is to issue a free pass for anyone coming out of a Matt Millen run organization. Honestly, I don't know much about the Browns recent coaching/front office history. I'll take your word on Carthon's suckage if you are that certain about it.

Absolutely certain.

Trust me, I wasn't for Haley taking on three roles this year (HC, OC, QB coach) but I'd take that any day of the week over Carthon being in charge of the offense.

Buehler445
09-21-2009, 12:52 AM
I don't think that now is the time. After the season? Absolutely.

I just think that Haley's time is better spend preparing, not interviewing a coach "off the street".

Good point. I guess it depends on how "in over his head" he is.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 12:56 AM
I don't think that now is the time. After the season? Absolutely.

I just think that Haley's time is better spend preparing, not interviewing a coach "off the street".

What about a guy like Al Saunders? Assuming that he could (& would) fill the role to Haley's specifications; can the Chiefs hire another team's "offensive consultant" during the regular season?
I know they can do it in the offseason, even if the guy is under contract, so long as the new guy is coming in at a higher job level. But can it be done during the regular season?

Micjones
09-21-2009, 12:58 AM
That's right.

Carthon's proven that he can coordinate the worst offense in the league several times.

Carthon's competent. Haley can tell him exactly what he wants to accomplish.
And it frees your Head Coach up to coach the whole football team.

I mean... It's not like Cleveland or Detroit were world-beaters offensively.
Just sayin...

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 01:11 AM
Carthon's competent. Haley can tell him exactly what he wants to accomplish.
And it frees your Head Coach up to coach the whole football team.

I mean... It's not like Cleveland or Detroit were world-beaters offensively.
Just sayin...

There is absolutely no proof, whatsoever, that Maurice Carthon is competent.

NONE.

BTW, Damion McIntosh is no longer a Chief.

:D

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 01:12 AM
What about a guy like Al Saunders? Assuming that he could (& would) fill the role to Haley's specifications; can the Chiefs hire another team's "offensive consultant" during the regular season?
I know they can do it in the offseason, even if the guy is under contract, so long as the new guy is coming in at a higher job level. But can it be done during the regular season?

Saunders is in Baltimore with Cameron. They both run the Coryell/Zampese offense.

Haley does not run that offense so he would not be the right fit.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 01:18 AM
Saunders is in Baltimore with Cameron. They both run the Coryell/Zampese offense.

Haley does not run that offense so he would not be the right fit.

You might be underestimating Al. I'm sure Al's been around long enough that he could pick it up once he had time to study the playbook and game film from Haley's tenure as the Arizona OC & the KC HC. He could then consult with Haley on any area he wasn't sure about. Just sayin'.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 01:25 AM
You might be underestimating Al. I'm sure Al's been around long enough that he could pick it up once he had time to study the playbook and game film from Haley's tenure as the Arizona OC & the KC HC. He could then consult with Haley on any area he wasn't sure about. Just sayin'.

Dude, you don't put a square peg in a round hole.

The offenses are different, period.

The philosophies are different, period.

I'm not selling anyone short, though Al had NO success last year in St. Louis.

The bottom line is that they don't share the same vision for the offense, so that makes it an automatic "No".

keg in kc
09-21-2009, 01:36 AM
The playcalling was largely fine and the unit improved markedly from week one. But there are still more things to work on. The game management at the end of the first half was awful. The interceptions were likewise awful, although I put those on the quarterback and not the coach. A lot of points were left on the field.

That's pretty much all you can take from the game. Did they improve from week one? Yes. Now they have to continue to improve. If they do, Haley's doing his job. If the turnover problems and the penalties continue, or the unit worsens in some way, then he's not. Either way, it's not a decision you can make without bias in week 2.

patteeu
09-21-2009, 09:08 AM
The playcalling was largely fine and the unit improved markedly from week one. But there are still more things to work on. The game management at the end of the first half was awful. The interceptions were likewise awful, although I put those on the quarterback and not the coach. A lot of points were left on the field.

That's pretty much all you can take from the game. Did they improve from week one? Yes. Now they have to continue to improve. If they do, Haley's doing his job. If the turnover problems and the penalties continue, or the unit worsens in some way, then he's not. Either way, it's not a decision you can make without bias in week 2.

Yes. I see no reason why the coach's play calling should be questioned based on yesterday's game. If being his own OC is preventing him from making sure his players are disciplined enough not to commit devastating penalties then maybe he needs and OC, but I don't really see that being the case.

wild1
09-21-2009, 09:08 AM
Don't compare Haley to Gunther. Good gravy.

Chief Faithful
09-21-2009, 10:55 AM
The Chiefs are not going to the playoffs this season so I like the idea that Haley is taking on so many roles and getting into the minutia. He will walk away from this season with a much better idea of where the talent lacks and what changes need to be made.

During the off-season he can focus on how he wants to address the roles of QB coach and OC. Now is not the time for him to be distracted with trying to find and develop chemistry with a new OC.

Mr. Laz
09-21-2009, 11:03 AM
I think he should hire someone to help him run the offense, even if he continues to call the plays.

I also want him to hire a QB coach to help maintain proper QB's mechanics.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 11:27 AM
Dude, you don't put a square peg in a round hole.

The offenses are different, period.

The philosophies are different, period.

I'm not selling anyone short, though Al had NO success last year in St. Louis.

The bottom line is that they don't share the same vision for the offense, so that makes it an automatic "No".

I totally disagree. I think someone like Al has enough experience that he could run any offense. There might be a learning curve, but to dismiss someone with his experience as a "square peg" that's only capable of running one offense is naive. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. As for St. Louis, I think they're been dealing with issues that are much broader than just the OC.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 11:28 AM
I think he should hire someone to help him run the offense, even if he continues to call the plays.

I also want him to hire a QB coach to help maintain proper QB's mechanics.

I think this makes a lot of sense.

MahiMike
09-21-2009, 12:17 PM
Haley is up to the challenge. There are times when it's too hectic - like the timeouts yesterday, but Haley isn't gonna just bring in a figure-head to act like he's calling plays. I love this guy. He puts to whole team on his shoulders.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:29 PM
I totally disagree. I think someone like Al has enough experience that he could run any offense. There might be a learning curve, but to dismiss someone with his experience as a "square peg" that's only capable of running one offense is naive. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. As for St. Louis, I think they're been dealing with issues that are much broader than just the OC.

You just don't get it, do you?

Do you think that Chan Gailey lacked the experience to run Haley's offense?

It's about CHEMISTRY AND VISION.

It's clear you've never worked on a creative team before because if people don't share the same ideas and vision, it's gigantic clusterfuck and nothing gets accomplished. Why do you think that Chan was removed from his duties as OC in the first place?

Furthermore, why in the hell would Al Saunders even want to learn a new offense at his age? The guy gets paid one million dollars a year or more because of his knowledge and expertise in the Coryell/Zampese offense.

JFC.

patteeu
09-21-2009, 12:31 PM
I think he should hire someone to help him run the offense, even if he continues to call the plays.

I also want him to hire a QB coach to help maintain proper QB's mechanics.

And it wouldn't be a horrible idea if the QBs had a "good cop" counterpoint to the "bad cop" of the head coach.

Hydrae
09-21-2009, 12:33 PM
I think he should hire someone to help him run the offense, even if he continues to call the plays.

I also want him to hire a QB coach to help maintain proper QB's mechanics.

That is basically my point. He needs someone to oversee things while he is doing other things that are part of his job as HC, like working with Clancy on defensive issues.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 12:35 PM
I think he should hire someone to help him run the offense, even if he continues to call the plays.

I also want him to hire a QB coach to help maintain proper QB's mechanics.

I agree.

At the end of the season.

Who's he going to get now? Everyone that's worth a shit is under contract.

Do you expect him to hit the local high schools? Put an ad in Craigslist?

JFC.

Chiefnj2
09-21-2009, 12:37 PM
He should find a better DC while he's at it.

Mr. Laz
09-21-2009, 12:42 PM
And it wouldn't be a horrible idea if the QBs had a "good cop" counterpoint to the "bad cop" of the head coach.absolutely.

He's the guy that goes over to the QB after Haley calls them a stupid moron and says "Ok, so you screwed up ... let's see how we can fix this" etc.

You want a QB coach that hangs around helps the guys breakdown film and keep their heads in the game. Also keeps their moral up and helps them focus on the important issues.

A smart ex-veteran Quarterback who's been there would be a good option imo.

patteeu
09-21-2009, 12:51 PM
absolutely.

He's the guy that goes over to the QB after Haley calls them a stupid moron and says "Ok, so you screwed up ... let's see how we can fix this" etc.

You want a QB coach that hangs around helps the guys breakdown film and keep their heads in the game. Also keeps their moral up and helps them focus on the important issues.

A smart ex-veteran Quarterback who's been there would be a good option imo.

That would work.

Shox
09-21-2009, 01:09 PM
at the end of the day..it was two let downs by the defense on the opponets last drive the past two weeks, that lost kc the game.

Are you kidding me???? Yes the D was a major part of the loss with the final drive, but we should never have been in the position to get beat on a final drive.

#1 A team with the lack of talent like the Chiefs must find ways to get the ball to their best player......Bowe. The offense was not going through Bowe at all, Cassel rarely looked his way. I was at the game and watched Bowe a lot. Yes the Raiders were doing things to take him away, but Cassel was not even looking at him on the large majority of plays which means the play was not designed to go to him. If you are still trying to teach him a lesson put his ass on the bench. If not get him the football!

#2 You have to push the ball down the field a few time. I understand we do not have the Oline to be a down field passing team, but you have to pick a few spots to push the ball down the field. We did one time to our best player........result TD Bowe.

#3 Cassel/Haley screw up at the end of the first half and get no points.

#4 Haley/Cassel pass and sack on 3rd and 1 with 3 timeouts last in the game. That was a totally stupid, stupid call on Haley's part.

#5 Two picks by Cassel

#6 Flowers drops a pick 6.

#7 Special teams backs up into the endzone to down a punt.

#8 You have multiple touches by Cox and O'Connell, why, why, why. These guys would not even have job in the NFL if they were to be cut and you have 15%-20% of the offense going to them.


#9 Very questionable late hit call by the refs. But, again the Chiefs should never have been in the postion to have this call hurt them. The previous 8 above allowed #9 to make an impact.

Overall, I like some of the things Haley is doing, but he failed everyone in the Raider game. I hope he apologized to his team.

T-post Tom
09-21-2009, 06:04 PM
You just don't get it, do you?
Do you think that Chan Gailey lacked the experience to run Haley's offense?
It's about CHEMISTRY AND VISION.
It's clear you've never worked on a creative team before because if people don't share the same ideas and vision, it's gigantic cluster**** and nothing gets accomplished. Why do you think that Chan was removed from his duties as OC in the first place?
Furthermore, why in the hell would Al Saunders even want to learn a new offense at his age? The guy gets paid one million dollars a year or more because of his knowledge and expertise in the Coryell/Zampese offense.
JFC.

Yes I do “get it.” You’re an inappropriately arrogant douche-nozzle. Got it. You should take all your fuzzy logic and knit yourself a carrying case for that giant stick that you’ve got up your ass.

You don’t know the first thing about me or what kind of work I’ve done. It’s common for members of a creative team to have differences of opinion. What’s important is how the members handle those differences. And again, YOU don’t even know if this was why Gailey was let go as OC. Maybe it just came down to results. (A horrible preseason and an injured $60M man.) Maybe Haley would have let Gailey do whatever the hell he wanted as long as it got results. The point is, you don’t know. Nobody outside of Arrowhead knows for sure.

Al Saunders is on record as saying he wants to retire in KC. He raised his daughters here and considers it home. While it appears too late to install a new offensive playbook for KC this season, he might be content to accept a promotion from “consultant” to OC with a corresponding pay raise. Even if it means running an offense that can’t be strictly defined as a “Coryell/Zampese” offense. That’s “why in the hell” he might do it. But I guess you’re not informed or creative enough to think outside of your own self-imposed box.

DaneMcCloud
09-21-2009, 06:38 PM
Yes I do “get it.” You’re an inappropriately arrogant douche-nozzle. Got it. You should take all your fuzzy logic and knit yourself a carrying case for that giant stick that you’ve got up your ass.

You don’t know the first thing about me or what kind of work I’ve done. It’s common for members of a creative team to have differences of opinion. What’s important is how the members handle those differences. And again, YOU don’t even know if this was why Gailey was let go as OC. Maybe it just came down to results. (A horrible preseason and an injured $60M man.) Maybe Haley would have let Gailey do whatever the hell he wanted as long as it got results. The point is, you don’t know. Nobody outside of Arrowhead knows for sure.

Al Saunders is on record as saying he wants to retire in KC. He raised his daughters here and considers it home. While it appears too late to install a new offensive playbook for KC this season, he might be content to accept a promotion from “consultant” to OC with a corresponding pay raise. Even if it means running an offense that can’t be strictly defined as a “Coryell/Zampese” offense. That’s “why in the hell” he might do it.



I'll tell you what. I'd rather be a "douchenozzle" than a complete fucking moronic imbecile such as yourself.

The Chiefs WILL NOT and ARE NOT going to hire Al fucking Saunders.

Get the fuck over it.

But I guess you’re not informed or creative enough to think outside of your own self-imposed box.

No, I just know what will and what won't work.

And you sir, can go fist fuck yourself.

Count Alex's Losses
09-21-2009, 06:40 PM
#8 You have multiple touches by Cox and O'Connell, why, why, why.


Are you kidding me?

The Chiefs are looking under every rock on the roster trying to find consistent performers.

We have the least talented roster in the league, and you object when the head coach gives some other players a chance?

Really?

Come on!

PS - O'Connell got open for a TD. Not his fault Cassel missed him.