PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs Chiefs' Players Are Embarrassing Haley


Pages : [1] 2 3

Count Zarth
09-22-2009, 10:25 PM
http://kan.scout.com/2/901874.html

Crucifying Todd Haley after two games is ignorant, impatient and ludicrous, especially when he has given one of the least talented rosters in the entire NFL a chance to win both games.

For two weeks now, the Chiefs have been in a position to win. But at some point, the players have to take over the game. The NFL is not about coaching. It’s about players.

Right now, the Chiefs do not have the players.

That fact was quite obvious against the Oakland Raiders at Arrowhead this past Sunday. Time and again, Haley kept putting his rag-tag collection of under-talented, inexperienced or over-the-hill Chiefs in a position to succeed. Play after play, the opportunities presented themselves, but were not taken advantage of.

It started early. After a reverse to Quinten Lawrence (a brilliant first-snap play call), the Chiefs had a first down at the 32-yard line. The play Haley called worked. The three-step drop rendered Oakland’s pass rush meaningless, tight end Jake O’Connell was open and the pass was thrown accurately and on time.

But it fell incomplete. Why? O’Connell didn’t get his head around in time, and the pass bounced off his helmet.

O’Connell failed to execute. Right now, he’s just not good enough. He didn’t take advantage of the opportunity to convert a play that should have gone for a positive gain.

One play later, more sloppy execution doomed the Chiefs. Left tackle Branden Albert (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307400) gave up a pressure almost immediately after the snap. Matt Cassel (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4210794) held up his end of the bargain, finding an open receiver quickly and throwing the ball accurately, despite taking a big hit. But Dantrell Savage (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307549), with room to run, dropped the pass, blowing a chance to pick up a first down.

Another failure to execute. Haley can’t block for Albert, and he can’t catch for Savage.

A few minutes later, O’Connell ruined another play. The rookie didn’t even know where to line up. It cost the Chiefs a time out. It’s not Haley’s responsibility to tell O’Connell where to be on every snap. Maybe if the tight end had studied his playbook a little harder, spent a little more time with his position coach, Bob Bicknell, he wouldn’t make that mistake.

But the poor start didn’t ruin the drive. With Haley calling the plays, mixing the run and pass, the Chiefs moved right down the field to Oakland’s 13-yard line. There, another good play call presented an opportunity for a player to make a play. After a play action fake, O’Connell was open in the back of the end zone for a touchdown.

But the Chiefs didn’t score. Cassel failed to execute the throw correctly, and overthrew his tight end, giving him no chance to catch a ball that was thrown too high and too hard. Haley can’t make the throw for Cassel, only draw up a play that gets the receiver open.

The Chiefs settled for a field goal because of their poor execution on the drive but Haley, bucking the conservative, play-not-to-lose style that Herm Edwards brought to the table and so many Chiefs fans loathed, decided to give them another chance, immediately. He called for an onside kick, the Raiders were caught off guard and the ball bounced perfectly into the hands of Maurice Leggett (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307513).

Haley’s aggressive call would have paid off had Leggett secured the football. Instead, he failed to execute, dropping it as he fell to the ground. Haley can’t hold on to the football for Leggett.

Haley can’t hold on to the football for Brandon Flowers (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307445), either. With just under three minutes to go before halftime, Flowers dropped an interception that he could have walked right into the end zone for a touchdown.

The Chiefs missed out on another score just before halftime when Cassel checked the ball down to Savage, who failed to get out of bounds, letting the clock run out. Haley explained in his post-game press conference that the situation called for the quarterback to throw the ball in the end zone, or get it out of bounds.

Cassel did neither. He failed to execute.

Cassel should know better, and it goes back to something Haley said weeks ago, during training camp.

“The game is made up of a lot of situations,” he said. “In order to be a smart team you have to know what’s going on, you have to understand the situation and you almost have to do it without coaching.”

And that says it all. Cassel either didn’t understand the situation – that the ball could not be completed in bounds – or he misjudged it, believing Savage could get out of bounds or the offense could line up again and stop the clock. Either way, he was wrong, and that’s why Haley was fuming when his quarterback came off the field.

The Chiefs continued to make errors in execution all game long. Penalties, dropped passes, another interception from Cassel. On one play, Monty Beisel (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307404) had a perfect opportunity to down the ball inside the five-yard line. Inexplicably, he decided to run into the end zone and let the ball bounce in for a touchback. Is that Haley’s fault?

After Haley’s offense was finally executed without error, resulting in a touchdown, the Chiefs took the lead. The Raiders took it back with a drive of their own, which illustrated, again, that Haley simply does not have the players.

As it had most of the game, KC’s pass rush put little heat on JaMarcus Russell (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4249031). This time he hit the open receivers who, incidentally, had also been open most of the game prior. On Oakland’s game-winning touchdown, safety Mike Brown (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4414209) couldn’t catch Darren McFadden (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4249023). He’s just not fast enough. He had a chance to make the play, but only he can make it. Haley can’t do it for him.

Some fans believe being so hard on Kansas City’s players is unfair and mean-spirited. But it serves an important purpose. When you realize how terrible the Chiefs really are – they lack talent and mental errors only serve to magnify their lack of talent – it illustrates what a gargantuan task lies in front of Haley.

The only coaching staff that could lead these Chiefs to the playoffs – yes, some fans actually thought the Chiefs could sneak into the playoffs as a wild-card this year - would be comprised of Albus Dumbledore, Gandalf the Grey and Merlin the Magnificent. It would literally take magic.

The Chiefs have been awful this year and are going to continue to be awful. They could possibly begin a stretch Sunday, in Philadelphia, that carries them to a record of 0-7. If you think Russell exploited KC’s defense on that last drive, watch what Eli Manning (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4208108), Tony Romo (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4354171), Jason Campbell (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4208031) (off to a great start this year) and Philip Rivers (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4189320) do.

At the end of this stretch, people aren’t going to be happy. The pressure on Haley is only going to get worse. But if you call for his head now or impugn him as the source of Kansas City’s failures, you’re way out of line. He’s overmatched every Sunday with this roster.

Despite that, the Chiefs have been in a position to win, two Sundays in a row. Credit Haley, not the players who struggled to snap the ball and pick up a first down in Baltimore, who couldn’t finish drives despite moving up and down the field all day against Oakland.

So, yes, there are, bitter, agenda-driven, barbecue enthusiasts in Kansas City who believe Haley embarrassed the Chiefs Sunday with his coaching performance. I say the Chiefs embarrassed Haley. They had their chances, and they let them slip away.

The_Doctor10
09-22-2009, 10:29 PM
I know I really don't like you... But I'll say fair play to everything you just posted.

Tuckdaddy
09-22-2009, 10:32 PM
Well said. Totally true.

cdcox
09-22-2009, 10:36 PM
GoChiefs - a little critique based on the headline and the first sentence of your article, repeated below:

Chiefs' Players Are Embarrassing Haley

Crucifying Todd Haley after two games is ignorant, impatient and ludicrous, especially when he has given one of the least talented rosters in the entire NFL a chance to win both games.

What is the subject of the first sentence, i.e. who is doing the crucifying? My brain demanded a subject. Since there was not one readily available, I filled in "Chief's Players". Which of course was wrong. But I didn't realize that until 1/3 the way through the article. Be very careful with sentences with implied subjects. Better to explicitly state the subject. There is a name for this style ambiguity but I'm too lazy to find it now.

BigChiefFan
09-22-2009, 10:37 PM
Pretty good article.

The_Doctor10
09-22-2009, 10:38 PM
GoChiefs - a little critique based on the headline and the first sentence of your article, repeated below:

Chiefs' Players Are Embarrassing Haley

Crucifying Todd Haley after two games is ignorant, impatient and ludicrous, especially when he has given one of the least talented rosters in the entire NFL a chance to win both games.

What is the subject of the first sentence, i.e. who is doing the crucifying? My brain demanded a subject. Since there was not one readily available, I filled in "Chief's Players". Which of course was wrong. But I didn't realize that until 1/3 the way through the article. Be very careful with sentences with implied subjects. Better to explicitly state the subject. There is a name for this style ambiguity but I'm too lazy to find it now.

I'm guessing the media types (Fatlock, we're talking about you) are the ones he's referring to.

KCrockaholic
09-22-2009, 10:39 PM
Very nice! :clap: Eat it Fatlock!

Bane
09-22-2009, 10:40 PM
Ok fine write but at the end of the day no matter how big the rebuild,no matter how bad we are true fans will still want the Chiefs to win.I think Haley's doing fine for the hand he was delt,and I'm thinking well get better soon enough.I'm still gonna be pissed when we loose,and rant and rave,but that's just the fan in me coming out.
Posted via Mobile Device

Count Zarth
09-22-2009, 10:44 PM
I'm guessing the media types (Fatlock, we're talking about you) are the ones he's referring to.

And fans.

The_Doctor10
09-22-2009, 10:46 PM
And fans.

Yes, but those are the people who'd be like 'Fire Haley' if he got the Chiefs to the AFC championship game and they lost to the Steelers in Pittsburgh because Succop missed a GWFG with no time left from 53 yards out into 40 MPH winds.

Surely nobody with a brain actually wants to evaluate the coach based on two games the team could've won?

KCrockaholic
09-22-2009, 10:51 PM
Yes, but those are the people who'd be like 'Fire Haley' if he got the Chiefs to the AFC championship game and they lost to the Steelers in Pittsburgh because Succop missed a GWFG with no time left from 53 yards out into 40 MPH winds.

Surely nobody with a brain actually wants to evaluate the coach based on two games the team could've won?

I agree with you, but some fans like to evaluate teams after 2 games also. Right now Donkey fans think they have a great defense. But thats after 2 game against below average talent. You cant really evaluate a coach or a team off of just a few games. In Todd Haleys case, he deserves 2 years before anyone can even think of bringing down the axe.

mikey23545
09-22-2009, 10:56 PM
Wow...

Just substitute "Herman Edwards" every place in the article for "Haley" and see how it reads...

Count Zarth
09-22-2009, 10:59 PM
Wow...

Just substitute "Herman Edwards" every place in the article for "Haley" and see how it reads...

Actually Herm deserved the same chance....

DeezNutz
09-22-2009, 11:05 PM
Who crucified him?

He coached poorly. It's a fact. Haley himself has acknowledged that there were far too many mistakes ON HIS PART.

Blindly following anyone and overreacting to a bit of criticism is much more ludicrous.

Count Zarth
09-22-2009, 11:09 PM
Who crucified him?

Media and retarded fans.

Haley taking the blame is just him being a stand-up guy. Which is another reason he kicks ass.

DeezNutz
09-22-2009, 11:10 PM
Media and retarded fans.

Haley taking the blame is just him being a stand-up guy. Which is another reason he kicks ass.

He's blameless. LMAO.

When you lead the Haley warfare charge, I'm going to be laughing my fucking ass off.

Simply Red
09-22-2009, 11:13 PM
I seriously love haley, seriously.

Count Zarth
09-22-2009, 11:25 PM
He's blameless. LMAO.

When you lead the Haley warfare charge, I'm going to be laughing my fucking ass off.

He's not blameless. But most coaches are not.

Coaches can make mistakes and have players compensate. I don't believe it works the other way around. Unless you're Herm Edwards and choose to go into a shell because you're afraid...

googlegoogle
09-23-2009, 12:49 AM
Haley is safe. Cassel is good. Oline is average. Dline is ok. Wr's and Tend = Ugh.

DaneMcCloud
09-23-2009, 12:59 AM
He's not blameless. But most coaches are not.

Coaches can make mistakes and have players compensate. I don't believe it works the other way around. Unless you're Herm Edwards and choose to go into a shell because you're afraid...

LMAO

So, Herm Edwards failed to address the media about his shortcomings and ended up with two out of three losing seasons but since Haley is willing to address SOME issues, he's a saint and given a pass?

What a bunch of retarded fucking horseshit.

FUCK YOU and FUCK WPI.

SNR
09-23-2009, 01:17 AM
LMAO

So, Herm Edwards failed to address the media about his shortcomings and ended up with two out of three losing seasons but since Haley is willing to address SOME issues, he's a saint and given a pass?

What a bunch of retarded fucking horseshit.

FUCK YOU and FUCK WPI.I have a question.

Do you think Haley is a good coach? If the answer is no, from what you've seen, do you think he has the ability to learn on the run from all his fabulous mentors he talks about and eventually become a good coach?

Count Zarth
09-23-2009, 01:25 AM
So, Herm Edwards failed to address the media about his shortcomings and ended up with two out of three losing seasons but since Haley is willing to address SOME issues, he's a saint and given a pass?


There's no comparison right now. Herm stood there for three years and threw as many players under the bus as possible. Haley is already shouldering the blame for things he shouldn't. Sunday was the absolute best play calling the Chiefs have seen since Al Saunders. That pack of garbage on the field had no business gaining 400 yards.

Count Zarth
09-23-2009, 01:30 AM
I have a question.

Do you think Haley is a good coach? If the answer is no, from what you've seen, do you think he has the ability to learn on the run from all his fabulous mentors he talks about and eventually become a good coach?

I'll answer for Dane:

No.

Everything surrounding the Chiefs is complete and utter garbage.

Clark Hunt doesn't give a shit.

The stadium is old and run-down. The renovation is crap.

The talent on the field is the worst in the league. The Chiefs have an old, run-down running back, Randy Moss' BFF at QB, the worst offensive lineman in league history in Mike Goff, and the shittest OLB in football in Tamba Hali.

Pioli is just another failed, egotistical moron from the Belichick tree. His offseason pickups are all horrible and he is a failure of a general manager. He gave $63 million to Randy Moss' BFF and $50 million to Tyson Jackson, who should never have been drafted so high. Fuck him!

Todd Haley has now proven his ignorance based on Sunday's loss. Completely. Of course we already knew he was a moron because he hired Clancy Pendergast.

Also, Chiefs fans form the dumbest fan base in the entire league.

And our cheerleaders are dogs.

Your Kansas City Chiefs!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/524900480_f97cfb4eb4_o.gif

ChiefGator
09-23-2009, 04:57 AM
Good article... Maybe you should start posting the author as well when you post these. Clearly the author makes a HUGE difference on the tone of the articles you post.

Anyway, liked it. I'm tired of all the doom and freakin' gloom around here personally. I'm encouraged by Haley and I have been enjoying these last two games more than probably any game last year.

3rd&48ers
09-23-2009, 05:02 AM
couple more weeks Haley will say something like the dumbest team in America Calahan said a few years back.

InChiefsHell
09-23-2009, 05:30 AM
Clay was the author, you can tell by the Dumbledore-Gandalf-Merlin reference.

LaChapelle
09-23-2009, 06:54 AM
Two things

1) "The Chiefs missed out on another score just before halftime when Cassel checked the ball down to Savage, who failed to get out of bounds, letting the clock run out. Haley explained in his post-game press conference that the situation called for the quarterback to throw the ball in the end zone, or get it out of bounds.

Cassel did neither. He failed to execute."

Savage could have knocked the ball down - they'll both know better next time - In fact I'm sure with the play re-played for the team, They'll all know better next time.

2) Give the reader some credit. Stop repeating what Haley can't do. It sounds like a lecture directed at the mentally challenged. An other wise good article,except for calling the readers morons.

Count Zarth
09-23-2009, 06:58 AM
Give the reader some credit. Stop repeating what Haley can't do. It sounds like a lecture directed at the mentally challenged. An other wise good article,except for calling the readers morons.

Know your audience!

:evil:

petegz28
09-23-2009, 07:01 AM
Who crucified him?

He coached poorly. It's a fact. Haley himself has acknowledged that there were far too many mistakes ON HIS PART.

Blindly following anyone and overreacting to a bit of criticism is much more ludicrous.


You mean he took the blame instead of pulling a Herm?????:eek:

LaChapelle
09-23-2009, 07:02 AM
I'll not go there, but others will. :)

ThunderChief
09-23-2009, 07:20 AM
Sure, it takes talent and a lot of it to become an elite team in the NFL but the coaching has to be there as well. How many times have we seen a team with superior talent and mediocre coaching fail to achieve? (SD and Dallas this year and last come to mind).

Or mediocre teams with superior coaching overachieving? (Miami and ATL enter the picture). So the question unfolding is where are the Chiefs right now?

1) A mediocre talent team with poor coaching?
2) A poorly talented team with GOOD coaching?
3) A team free falling into a galatic vortex of a mess?

The answer in some shading is in there somewhere. Pending the outcome of the complete season, I go with 2) above but reserve the right to change my rating as the 2009 season continues to unfold.

Molitoth
09-23-2009, 07:24 AM
Nice article dude. I agree with you on this one.

wild1
09-23-2009, 07:29 AM
Sounds like the author just saw the Whitlock thread got 1,000 replies and wanted to feed off that.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 07:31 AM
Why isn't the team executing?

1. No pass rush. Haley and Pioli decided to go with Hali and Vrabel and neither can get to the QB. Playing Beisel ahead of DJ is a mistake as well.

2. Firing your OC a week and a half before the start of the season and changing schemes. That's on Haley.

3. Going into the season with Niswanger, Goff and McIntosh. That's on Pioli and Haley.

4. Continually rotating receivers and HBs so that no QB can get on the same page with his receivers. That's on Haley. That's what the offseason is for.

Is the execution poor? Sure. Has the head coach made it easier for players? Nope.

Mile High Mania
09-23-2009, 07:35 AM
Sounds like the author just saw the Whitlock thread got 1,000 replies and wanted to feed off that.

http://runcolo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/winner-winner-chicken-dinner.png

Count Zarth
09-23-2009, 07:37 AM
1. No pass rush. Haley and Pioli decided to go with Hali and Vrabel and neither can get to the QB.

What other options did they have?


Playing Beisel ahead of DJ is a mistake as well.

Beisel isn't playing ahead of DJ. They play different positions. And it's already been explained why DJ isn't starting...his gap control blows.

2. Firing your OC a week and a half before the start of the season and changing schemes. That's on Haley.


I agree with this. Haley asked for some of this offensive ineptitude. But it doesn't excuse things like dropped passes or not getting your head around. Nor does it excuse interceptions.


4. Continually rotating receivers and HBs so that no QB can get on the same page with his receivers. That's on Haley. That's what the offseason is for.

We moved the ball up and down the field. There really didn't appear to be any communication problems between receiver and quarterback.

Otter
09-23-2009, 07:46 AM
The funk Herm and Carl left on the remaining players is like the BO left in Jerry's Car from the valet driver.

Mile High Mania
09-23-2009, 07:47 AM
But if you call for his head now or impugn him as the source of Kansas City’s failures, you’re way out of line. He’s overmatched every Sunday with this roster.

Really? Every Sunday?

So, player for player... OAK is better than KC?
I agree that Denver is better, didn't think you would admit to it though.
KC has a roster that is worse than the Redskins,Browns and Bengals too?

Crazy. Tell me, who is KC better than from a roster perspective?

TEX
09-23-2009, 07:48 AM
Go Chiefs - You're right about Haley. He should receive every benefit of every doubt. But, you were clearly in the Herm fucking Edwards camp too so parden the doubters who think you're full of it...

And don't forget that Haley brought much of this on himself with his "22 guys off the street" coment. The problem might be that he needs to do that to win.

TEX
09-23-2009, 07:49 AM
Really? Every Sunday?

So, player for player... OAK is better than KC?
I agree that Denver is better, didn't think you would admit to it though.
KC has a roster that is worse than the Redskins,Browns and Bengals too?

Crazy. Tell me, who is KC better than from a roster perspective?

Maybe Detroit? That's about it.

CoMoChief
09-23-2009, 07:57 AM
If I was Haley, given the talent on this roster. I would micro manage the game and worry about just getting a first down one at a time and move the chains, control the clock. This is Herm talk I know, but we just don't have the talent to wing the ball around the field and go for the big play. We don't have an Oline that can provide decent protection for our QB and that's where it all starts. This also includes their inability to run block. Our running game is so bad it almost makes this offense one dimensional. We face 3rd n longs A LOT, which is never good Defenses lick their chops at that around this league. The talent we have at WR outside of Bowe is VERY minimal. Getting 10yards shouldn't be that hard.......at all.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 08:01 AM
What other options did they have?

- There was this thing called the draft. Oh, and this other watchamacallit called free agency.

Beisel isn't playing ahead of DJ. They play different positions. And it's already been explained why DJ isn't starting...his gap control blows.

- DJ's gap control is poor, but he is still perhaps the Defenses only playmaker. It's sad, but true.

I agree with this. Haley asked for some of this offensive ineptitude. But it doesn't excuse things like dropped passes or not getting your head around. Nor does it excuse interceptions.



We moved the ball up and down the field. There really didn't appear to be any communication problems between receiver and quarterback.

- On one hand you say they couldn't execute worth a crap, and next you say they were moving the ball up and down the field. If they were moving the ball so well, maybe the execution wasn't so bad.


.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 08:31 AM
1. No pass rush. Haley and Pioli decided to go with Hali and Vrabel and neither can get to the QB. Playing Beisel ahead of DJ is a mistake as well.

There weren't a whole lot of options better than Hali and Vrabel available. That's just the way it is. And the whole DJ thing is funny. As if one interception every 5 weeks somehow outweighs the fact that he plays a MAJOR role in this team giving up well over 5 yards per carry game in and game out since he arrived here.

2. Firing your OC a week and a half before the start of the season and changing schemes. That's on Haley.

Yep. It's on Haley. And good for him. Chan Gailey wasn't going to be a long-term fixture here, so might as well take the lumps now, at the same time we're taking all of our other lumps.

3. Going into the season with Niswanger, Goff and McIntosh. That's on Pioli and Haley.

I must have missed where they went into the season with McIntosh. Ndukwe (an offseason acquisition) was the starting RT at Baltimore.

4. Continually rotating receivers and HBs so that no QB can get on the same page with his receivers. That's on Haley. That's what the offseason is for.

Is the execution poor? Sure. Has the head coach made it easier for players? Nope.

Why should he make it easier for them? They either execute or they don't. And if they don't, they won't be here anymore.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 08:32 AM
On one hand you say they couldn't execute worth a crap, and next you say they were moving the ball up and down the field. If they were moving the ball so well, maybe the execution wasn't so bad.

9 penalties. Holding, false start, ILLEGAL MAN DOWNFIELD.

Seriously, are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary?

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 08:35 AM
9 penalties. Holding, false start, ILLEGAL MAN DOWNFIELD.

Seriously, are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary?

That's all part of the continual rotation of players and changing schemes. Nobody is on the same page yet. Haley is in a position to get some continuity.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 08:44 AM
That's all part of the continual rotation of players and changing schemes. Nobody is on the same page yet. Haley is in a position to get some continuity.

They haven't shuffled anything on the offensive line since the day Alleman and Ndukwe were acquired. It's been over a month.

Furthmore, the SAME offensive line that committed 7 penalties on Sunday went into BALTIMORE, against a GREAT defense, and committed ONE penalty.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 08:47 AM
That's all part of the continual rotation of players and changing schemes. Nobody is on the same page yet. Haley is in a position to get some continuity.

Yeah.

I've mentioned that Haley is really growing on me, but this rotation thing is starting to back me off a bit.

He's basically treated the 1st two games of the regular season as extended pre-season.

When asked why Charles was sitting, he said something to the effect of, "we're trying to see who fits and who doesn't." Meanwhile, our WR@ is on the bench because he didn't get to the first down marker a week before.

If that's the case, WTF were they doing in pre-season?

In the regular season, you better be putting the team in the best position possible to win, not be playing mix-and-match evaluator like it's the 2nd pre-season game.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 08:51 AM
They haven't shuffled anything on the offensive line since the day Alleman and Ndukwe were acquired. It's been over a month.

Furthmore, the SAME offensive line that committed 7 penalties on Sunday went into BALTIMORE, against a GREAT defense, and committed ONE penalty.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it.

Penalties are also a factor of the officiating crew. Cassel's cadence is probably different than Croyle which could account for some false starts.

Tiger's Fan
09-23-2009, 08:52 AM
Who crucified him?

He coached poorly. It's a fact. Haley himself has acknowledged that there were far too many mistakes ON HIS PART.

Blindly following anyone and overreacting to a bit of criticism is much more ludicrous.

Speaking of overreacting...

Shox
09-23-2009, 08:53 AM
I think all of us know Haley is dealing with an sub-standard NFL roster. However, he is not without blame. A couple of examples;

#1. The play at the end of the 1st half, why don't you advise Cassell the ball MUST go to the endzone otherwise throw it away. NO OTHER OPTIONS!!!!!! Keep the RB into protect, we did not need the ball going to the sideline what good was he doing out there? Haley was at fault here.

#2. Why do you have the volumn of plays going to O'Connell and Cox the Chiefs did???? Neither of these guys should be on NFL rosters and we try and put the ball in their hands a dozen times or more. You can argue the Raiders were taken away our only true playmaker in Bowe. Every defense tries to take away the other teams playmaker....Colston, AJ, Wayne.... but these teams finds ways to get them open and get them the ball. We didn't. That is on Haley. Cassell did not even look at Bowe on 75% of the plays. (I was in the stadium, upper deck and I watched Bowe a lot).

#3. 3rd and 1 late in the fourth quarter on the opponents half of the field with plenty of time becuase you have 3 TIME OUTS REMAINING. You run the football!!!!! Simple. You don't put a QB who has 15 NFL starts behind a poor Oline in a postion to get a sack. Run the ball and get the first down. TOTALLY ON HALEY!!!!!!!

I agree players must execute, but the Chiefs roster talent is marginal, a head coach must expect execution failures and adjust play calling accordingly. Overall I like what Haley is doing, but he performed very poorly as a game day coach on Sunday in my opinion.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
09-23-2009, 09:06 AM
I think all of us know Haley is dealing with an sub-standard NFL roster. However, he is not without blame. A couple of examples;

#1. The play at the end of the 1st half, why don't you advise Cassell the ball MUST go to the endzone otherwise throw it away. NO OTHER OPTIONS!!!!!! Keep the RB into protect, we did not need the ball going to the sideline what good was he doing out there? Haley was at fault here.

As I said in an earlier thread, Haley didn't call for the ball to go to the flat.

In the press conference after the game (heard on KCFX), Haley said, that pass was designed to go into the end zone. If the pass had to be thrown to the sideline, it had to be thrown so close to the sideline that it would either be caught or out of bounds. If it was going to be short, the receiver should intentionally knock it down to save time. (This is a paraphrase . . . I didn't tape the interview.)

It wasn't, it didn't and we didn't get the next play off.

Cassell said the same thing in his interview that he didn't get the ball far enough outside on that pass.

I guess I'm not seeing the controversy. But that's never stopped some people who just like to bitch.

Shox
09-23-2009, 09:13 AM
You don't put sub-standard, inexperienced players in a position to make that mistake is my point. You have to keep it simple.

And the comment IF the ball was to go the flat it was for the purpose of running out of bounds or knocking it down for an incompletion. SO this means the only possible outcome was a failed result for us and a potential success for them by catching and not getting out of bounds or worse a pick 6. I don't like the risk reward ratio there.

Just keep the back in and help our poor offensive line. If nothing comes open throw the ball out the back of the endzone.

Chief Henry
09-23-2009, 09:19 AM
Well said. Totally true.


Very accurate to me also. Haley can't put the helmet on and play.

RippedmyFlesh
09-23-2009, 09:25 AM
He’s overmatched every Sunday with this roster.

Despite that, the Chiefs have been in a position to win, two Sundays in a row.

I agree with this 100%
Give haley an even average talented team and I like kc's chances. Coaching would be one of my least worries at this point. that upgrade alone makes this team watchable again after herm.

orange
09-23-2009, 09:26 AM
As I said in an earlier thread, Haley didn't call for the ball to go to the flat.

In the press conference after the game (heard on KCFX), Haley said, that pass was designed to go into the end zone. If the pass had to be thrown to the sideline, either it had to be thrown so close to the sideline that it would either be caught or out of bounds. If it was going to be short, the receiver should intentionally knock it down to save time. (This is a paraphrase . . . I didn't tape the interview.)

It wasn't, it didn't and we didn't get the next play off.

Cassell said the same thing in his interview that he didn't get the ball far enough outside on that pass.

I guess I'm not seeing the controversy. But that's never stopped some people who just like to bitch.



That's funny. If Herm Edwards had said that, it would be "throwing the players under the bus."

Haley says it, it's some sort of stand-up leadership.

What am I missing, here?

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 09:28 AM
That's funny. If Herm Edwards had said that, it would be "throwing the players under the bus."

Haley says it, it's some sort of stand-up leadership.

What am I missing, here?

That's just one of the points some of us have been trying to make since Sunday.

There's a monster double standard at work here, and some folks think it's OK because Haley's a rookie HC. (nevermind that he's not a rookie OC)

Hog Farmer
09-23-2009, 09:31 AM
This shit wouldn't be happening if Pollard was still a Chief !

Inspector
09-23-2009, 09:37 AM
Great points. I agree.

I do know though, that at my job if one of my guys screws up, it's always me that has to take the heat and bear the responsibility.

But, because of that, I can really relate to the points made in the OP.

Inspector
09-23-2009, 09:41 AM
GoChiefs - a little critique based on the headline and the first sentence of your article, repeated below:

Chiefs' Players Are Embarrassing Haley

Crucifying Todd Haley after two games is ignorant, impatient and ludicrous, especially when he has given one of the least talented rosters in the entire NFL a chance to win both games.

What is the subject of the first sentence, i.e. who is doing the crucifying? My brain demanded a subject. Since there was not one readily available, I filled in "Chief's Players". Which of course was wrong. But I didn't realize that until 1/3 the way through the article. Be very careful with sentences with implied subjects. Better to explicitly state the subject. There is a name for this style ambiguity but I'm too lazy to find it now.

He might not want to have anything critiqued. Maybe. At least I get that feeling at times. Even if it is well intentioned.

RJ
09-23-2009, 09:41 AM
When does it become acceptable to criticize Haley and his staff? Is there a certain number of games that must be played? Is the first season off limits for criticism? Second season?

He is a new head coach and he has made mistakes. No surprise. He has been criticized for those mistakes. No surprise. Hopefully the coach and his players improve as the season goes along.

Rain Man
09-23-2009, 09:43 AM
When does it become acceptable to criticize Haley and his staff? Is there a certain number of games that must be played? Is the first season off limits for criticism? Second season?

He is a new head coach and he has made mistakes. No surprise. He has been criticized for those mistakes. No surprise. Hopefully the coach and his players improve as the season goes along.



22 games for me. Possibly as few as 17 if opening day next year contains blatant gaffes, but generally 22.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 09:45 AM
Yeah.

I've mentioned that Haley is really growing on me, but this rotation thing is starting to back me off a bit.

He's basically treated the 1st two games of the regular season as extended pre-season.

When asked why Charles was sitting, he said something to the effect of, "we're trying to see who fits and who doesn't." Meanwhile, our WR@ is on the bench because he didn't get to the first down marker a week before.

If that's the case, WTF were they doing in pre-season?

In the regular season, you better be putting the team in the best position possible to win, not be playing mix-and-match evaluator like it's the 2nd pre-season game.

We've been told for the better part of 36 months that this is the least-talented team in the NFL.

I don't find at all shocking that we might need more than 4 preseason games to figure out who on this team, if anyone, has value.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 09:46 AM
Penalties are also a factor of the officiating crew. Cassel's cadence is probably different than Croyle which could account for some false starts.

Very, very true.

RJ
09-23-2009, 09:48 AM
22 games for me. Possibly as few as 17 if opening day next year contains blatant gaffes, but generally 22.


Ok, that's one vote for 22. I'll get a pencil and a piece of paper.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 09:50 AM
We've been told for the better part of 36 months that this is the least-talented team in the NFL.

I don't find at all shocking that we might need more than 4 preseason games to figure out who on this team, if anyone, has value.

At some point you need to settle things down and try to develop some chemistry and consistency. It appears that players aren't even sure at times why they have been demoted or not given a start, etc.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 09:50 AM
I think all of us know Haley is dealing with an sub-standard NFL roster. However, he is not without blame. A couple of examples;

#1. The play at the end of the 1st half, why don't you advise Cassell the ball MUST go to the endzone otherwise throw it away. NO OTHER OPTIONS!!!!!! Keep the RB into protect, we did not need the ball going to the sideline what good was he doing out there? Haley was at fault here.

#2. Why do you have the volumn of plays going to O'Connell and Cox the Chiefs did???? Neither of these guys should be on NFL rosters and we try and put the ball in their hands a dozen times or more. You can argue the Raiders were taken away our only true playmaker in Bowe. Every defense tries to take away the other teams playmaker....Colston, AJ, Wayne.... but these teams finds ways to get them open and get them the ball. We didn't. That is on Haley. Cassell did not even look at Bowe on 75% of the plays. (I was in the stadium, upper deck and I watched Bowe a lot).

#3. 3rd and 1 late in the fourth quarter on the opponents half of the field with plenty of time becuase you have 3 TIME OUTS REMAINING. You run the football!!!!! Simple. You don't put a QB who has 15 NFL starts behind a poor Oline in a postion to get a sack. Run the ball and get the first down. TOTALLY ON HALEY!!!!!!!

I agree players must execute, but the Chiefs roster talent is marginal, a head coach must expect execution failures and adjust play calling accordingly. Overall I like what Haley is doing, but he performed very poorly as a game day coach on Sunday in my opinion.

So you want Haley to take all audibles and pre-snap adjustments out of the offense?

You do realize that the QB in this offense generally has more than one option as far as the playcall, depending on the pre-snap read, right? You're basically asking Haley to implement what Herm wanted. Don't give the QB any ability to make a play for fear he might make a mistake.

Let's just bring back MartyBall.

Furthermore, I find it funny that people want to blame Haley that our WR's can't get open, considering that it's been going on for THREE FULL SEASONS before Haley arrived. We've been bitching about guys not getting open since the 2006 season.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 09:51 AM
You don't put sub-standard, inexperienced players in a position to make that mistake is my point. You have to keep it simple.

This basically says "bring back Herm".

Shox
09-23-2009, 09:51 AM
I'm not trying to come down on Haley as much as I am the orginator of this thread that the players are embarrassing Haley and the suggestion that Haley is a coaching God who did no wrong Sunday.

Yes the players screwed up. But I believe Haley made some big mistakes which helped create the sceneiro for the players to screw up.

I like Haley overall and think we have a much improved head coach. But, Sunday he did not do a good job in my opinion.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 09:53 AM
At some point you need to settle things down and try to develop some chemistry and consistency. It appears that players aren't even sure at times why they have been demoted or not given a start, etc.

This.

If you haven't figured it out after OTA's, training camp, and PS, I'm not sure you're going to figure it out.

orange
09-23-2009, 09:53 AM
22 games for me. Possibly as few as 17 if opening day next year contains blatant gaffes, but generally 22.

Is that 22 professional games, or 22 games off the street?

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 09:54 AM
At some point you need to settle things down and try to develop some chemistry and consistency. It appears that players aren't even sure at times why they have been demoted or not given a start, etc.

We've cut 30 guys already. Another 20-30 more will be released after this season.

I don't really see ANY urgent reason to develop chemistry on this team. This season is about evaluation.

I WANT Haley to make mistakes. This is his "get out of jail free" year. Make the mistakes now, so that you don't make them in week 14 next year when a playoff spot is on the line.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 09:54 AM
This.

If you haven't figured it out after OTA's, training camp, and PS, I'm not sure you're going to figure it out.

How could he?

Again, this is the least-talented team in the league.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 09:55 AM
Furthermore, I find it funny that people want to blame Haley that our WR's can't get open, considering that it's been going on for THREE FULL SEASONS before Haley arrived. We've been bitching about guys not getting open since the 2006 season.

Who is the former OC and WR coach who specialized in getting the most out of WRs?

RippedmyFlesh
09-23-2009, 09:55 AM
I'm not trying to come down on Haley as much as I am the orginator of this thread that the players are embarrassing Haley and the suggestion that Haley is a coaching God who did no wrong Sunday.

Yes the players screwed up. But I believe Haley made some big mistakes which helped create the sceneiro for the players to screw up.

I like Haley overall and think we have a much improved head coach. But, Sunday he did not do a good job in my opinion.

He put less talented players in a position to win a game. I can't ask for more than that of a hc with the team at this talent level.

Shox
09-23-2009, 09:55 AM
So you want Haley to take all audibles and pre-snap adjustments out of the offense?

You do realize that the QB in this offense generally has more than one option as far as the playcall, depending on the pre-snap read, right? You're basically asking Haley to implement what Herm wanted. Don't give the QB any ability to make a play for fear he might make a mistake.

Let's just bring back MartyBall.

Furthermore, I find it funny that people want to blame Haley that our WR's can't get open, considering that it's been going on for THREE FULL SEASONS before Haley arrived. We've been bitching about guys not getting open since the 2006 season.

So you think a pass play was the right call on 3rd and 1 with 3 time outs????

Yes, in SOME SITUATIONS I would take the audible away with this team.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 09:55 AM
How could he?

Again, this is the least-talented team in the league.

Which shouldn't make it very difficult to see who can play and who can't.

KCUnited
09-23-2009, 09:56 AM
I don't buy the players don't understand why they aren't playing.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 09:57 AM
We've cut 30 guys already. Another 20-30 more will be released after this season.

I don't really see ANY urgent reason to develop chemistry on this team. This season is about evaluation.

I WANT Haley to make mistakes. This is his "get out of jail free" year. Make the mistakes now, so that you don't make them in week 14 next year when a playoff spot is on the line.

Haley has talked about the importance of the team needing to learn how to win and losing the "losing attitude". The season is about changing the mindset of the team as much as it is about evaluation. Chemistry is an important part of the equation.

With the uncapped season approaching and changes to free agency, Pioli and Haley are going to have a hard time finding 20-30 additional quality players.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 09:59 AM
Who is the former OC and WR coach who specialized in getting the most out of WRs?

Bowe is on pace to have fewer targets than he had catches last year.

That's not acceptable for Bradley, much less the only true playmaker you have.

Shox
09-23-2009, 09:59 AM
Who is the former OC and WR coach who specialized in getting the most out of WRs?

Exactly!

If you sat in Arrowhead it was clear plays were not designed to help Bowe get open or for the ball to go his way.

This makes no sense.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 10:12 AM
Which shouldn't make it very difficult to see who can play and who can't.

The problem with this sort of claim is that this team doesn't have 22 players who can play. As some of us have tried pointing out repeatedly, this team lacks talent. There's not a tight end on the roster who's starter quality, for example. Prior to the Wade signing, this team had 1 receiver (Bowe), and a 3rd down specialist (Engram) who's on his last legs. The rest of the receiving corps is full of backups, at best. This sort of thing is throughout the roster. This should have been understood by anyone with a pulse and a brain wave. This is the first year of a multi-year rebuilding project, and the team is stuck with a slew of substandard players. That's why it's rebuilding.

boogblaster
09-23-2009, 10:19 AM
Under-talented players should still not lose ball games in the final four minutes .. For some reason the Chiefs can't finish a ball-game ...

Tiger's Fan
09-23-2009, 10:27 AM
The problem with this sort of claim is that this team doesn't have 22 players who can play. As some of us have tried pointing out repeatedly, this team lacks talent. There's not a tight end on the roster who's starter quality, for example. Prior to the Wade signing, this team had 1 receiver (Bowe), and a 3rd down specialist (Engram) who's on his last legs. The rest of the receiving corps is full of backups, at best. This sort of thing is throughout the roster. This should have been understood by anyone with a pulse and a brain wave. This is the first year of a multi-year rebuilding project, and the team is stuck with a slew of substandard players. That's why it's rebuilding.

If we don't get to 8-8 fast enough, heads have got to roll!!!!

LaChapelle
09-23-2009, 10:28 AM
If another player turns into a threat does that not take some pressure off Bowe? How do you develop that player?

LaChapelle
09-23-2009, 10:31 AM
Who did they look to in the endzone?

RippedmyFlesh
09-23-2009, 10:35 AM
Under-talented players should still not lose ball games in the final four minutes .. For some reason the Chiefs can't finish a ball-game ...
A team with more talent can sub throughout the game to keep key players fresh for the end of the game. The chiefs can't do that. Its not so much a reflection of the players as it is an advantage for the other team. Like in baseball when a team can have their bullpen well rested because the starters perform well.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 10:44 AM
The Jets are 10x more talented than KC, but when I see Ryan vs. Haley I see a big difference in approach toward the players. Ryan is a tough talker, but he has the team believing in themselves and they are all ready to walk through a wall for him. When I see Haley, I don't get the same "team" impression. I see players constantly under threat because of a misstep or error.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 10:51 AM
The Jets are 10x more talented than KC, but when I see Ryan vs. Haley I see a big difference in approach toward the players. Ryan is a tough talker, but he has the team believing in themselves and they are all ready to walk through a wall for him. When I see Haley, I don't get the same "team" impression. I see players constantly under threat because of a misstep or error.

:rolleyes:

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 11:41 AM
Who is the former OC and WR coach who specialized in getting the most out of WRs?

How many drops does Bowe have so far?

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 11:42 AM
How many drops does Bowe have so far?

Which makes it even more absurd that he's only getting 5 looks a game.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 11:43 AM
So you think a pass play was the right call on 3rd and 1 with 3 time outs????

Yes, in SOME SITUATIONS I would take the audible away with this team.

Did I say that? Haley gives his QB the OPTION to change the play at the line. If the QB changes the play into something you don't like, criticize the player.

And if you take the audible away, what message does that send? For everybody here bitching and moaning about how Haley treats the players, THIS type of thing should be FAR more concerning. If he takes the ability to audible away, he's said in no uncertain terms that he doesn't trust his QB.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 11:43 AM
Which makes it even more absurd that he's only getting 5 looks a game.

I agree. Maybe we should talk to CASSEL about that.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 11:45 AM
Which shouldn't make it very difficult to see who can play and who can't.

I'm fairly certain that there aren't 11 guys on each side of the ball that CAN.

I don't understand what people expect. Maybe we should just bring Carl back and get 7 wins.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 11:45 AM
Haley has talked about the importance of the team needing to learn how to win and losing the "losing attitude". The season is about changing the mindset of the team as much as it is about evaluation. Chemistry is an important part of the equation.

As is giving the team, ESPECIALLY the QB, the freedom to do his job.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 11:46 AM
The Jets are 10x more talented than KC, but when I see Ryan vs. Haley I see a big difference in approach toward the players. Ryan is a tough talker, but he has the team believing in themselves and they are all ready to walk through a wall for him. When I see Haley, I don't get the same "team" impression. I see players constantly under threat because of a misstep or error.

You didn't need to proceed beyond the bolded part, because the rest of it is moot.

We have NO IDEA how Ryan would approach the players if he had THIS group of players vs. the more-talented group he has now.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 11:51 AM
I agree. Maybe we should talk to CASSEL about that.

C'mon, Parker.

You know this game as well as anyone that posts on this board.

You know damn good and well that pass plays are designed with a player in mind.

As the playcaller, it's Haley's responsibility to get Bowe the ball. Put him in the slot, motion him, run slants, whatever.

Watch the game again, and tell me how many times Cassel looked to Bowe's side of the field, much less to Bowe himself. He sure didn't appear to be the 1st read to me.

Sure looked like the plays were called to get Wade and the TE's the ball - not Bowe.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 11:53 AM
I'm fairly certain that there aren't 11 guys on each side of the ball that CAN.

I don't understand what people expect. Maybe we should just bring Carl back and get 7 wins.

C'mon, man.

NO ONE is saying that.

IMO, it shouldn't be that difficult to decide who your best players are, especially when you handpicked 60% of them.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 11:55 AM
You didn't need to proceed beyond the bolded part, because the rest of it is moot.

We have NO IDEA how Ryan would approach the players if he had THIS group of players vs. the more-talented group he has now.

He approached Gholston in a nurturing manner rather than "get it done or get out."

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 11:55 AM
Which makes it even more absurd that he's only getting 5 looks a game.

The number of "looks" is dictated by the defense, by the routes, by the QB pressure, by whether or not the WR is getting open, by the reality of having 2 different QBs playing in the 2 weeks, and by other factors. As we've already discussed elsewhere, Bowe's catch numbers are nothing extraordinary for top 20 receivers in the NFL, either positively or negatively. As has been noted before, when Asomugha was taken out of the game against Oakland, the Chiefs threw the deep ball to Bowe for a touchdown.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 11:58 AM
He approached Gholston in a nurturing manner rather than "get it done or get out."

Gholston is still playing like shit, so what's your point?

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 12:01 PM
Gholston is still playing like shit, so what's your point?

My points are:

1. Haley isn't above criticism.
2. The team problems are a combination of Pioli, Haley, the players and the team they inherited.
3. Some of the execution problems are a result of Haley's decisions.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 12:04 PM
The number of "looks" is dictated by the defense, by the routes, by the QB pressure, by whether or not the WR is getting open, by the reality of having 2 different QBs playing in the 2 weeks, and by other factors. As we've already discussed elsewhere, Bowe's catch numbers are nothing extraordinary for top 20 receivers in the NFL, either positively or negatively. As has been noted before, when Asomugha was taken out of the game against Oakland, the Chiefs threw the deep ball to Bowe for a touchdown.

And as I've pointed out "elsewhere", if you expect Bowe to continue to catch 90% of the balls that are intended for him, catchable or not, you're ignorant.

As far as letting the defense dictate the number of times you target your only playmaker, that's a defeatist fucking attitude.

Calvin Johnson is getting all of opposing defenses attention, has a rookie QB throwing to him, and he's still leading the league in targets.

As an offensive coordinator, YOU get the ball to your playmakers regardless of the defense called. Throw hitches, slants, line up in the slot, go in motion, etc. It's not that difficult.

milkman
09-23-2009, 12:05 PM
That's just one of the points some of us have been trying to make since Sunday.

There's a monster double standard at work here, and some folks think it's OK because Haley's a rookie HC. (nevermind that he's not a rookie OC)

I think the difference is that Haley ahsn't backed away from taking responsibility for othe mistakes.

Whe you have a guy that never shoulders the blame, that always throws players under the bus, then he doens't get any benefit of doubt.

When you have a guy that has taken responsibility for mistakes, he gains credibilty when he does "throw players under the bus".

And really, if a coach who is willing to shoulder blame for his mistakes, actually throwing players under the bus whne he does point out the player's mistakes?

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 12:05 PM
My points are:

1. Haley isn't above criticism.
2. The team problems are a combination of Pioli, Haley, the players and the team they inherited.
3. Some of the execution problems are a result of Haley's decisions.

Water's wet in its liquid form
Humans are warm-blooded

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 12:10 PM
C'mon, Parker.

You know this game as well as anyone that posts on this board.

You know damn good and well that pass plays are designed with a player in mind.

As the playcaller, it's Haley's responsibility to get Bowe the ball. Put him in the slot, motion him, run slants, whatever.

Watch the game again, and tell me how many times Cassel looked to Bowe's side of the field, much less to Bowe himself. He sure didn't appear to be the 1st read to me.

Sure looked like the plays were called to get Wade and the TE's the ball - not Bowe.

I honestly didn't see Cassel progress through his reads that often. He was looking for the dump-off almost immediately on alot of plays.

Look, I'm not suggesting Haley is above blame. But right now he's bearing the brunt of almost 99% of it and that's misplaced, IMO.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 12:11 PM
C'mon, man.

NO ONE is saying that.

IMO, it shouldn't be that difficult to decide who your best players are, especially when you handpicked 60% of them.

Did he?

I mean, I've heard this morning that there's a rift between Haley and Pioli - Haley wants Brodie but can't play him because Cassel is Pioli's guy.

They can't both be true.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 12:12 PM
He approached Gholston in a nurturing manner rather than "get it done or get out."

That's one player. He can afford to nurture Gholston, because there's a half-dozen other guys on that defense he doesn't have to worry about.

Haley doesn't have the luxury.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 12:12 PM
And as I've pointed out "elsewhere", if you expect Bowe to continue to catch 90% of the balls that are intended for him, catchable or not, you're ignorant.

What's his catch rate right now?

As far as letting the defense dictate the number of times you target your only playmaker, that's a defeatist ****ing attitude.

Calvin Johnson is getting all of opposing defenses attention, has a rookie QB throwing to him, and he's still leading the league in targets.

Calvin Johnson is a better receiver than Bowe. He's also playing for an 0-18 team over the past 2 seasons. He's also only got 8 catches. You might want to look for a better example.

As an offensive coordinator, YOU get the ball to your playmakers regardless of the defense called. Throw hitches, slants, line up in the slot, go in motion, etc. It's not that difficult.

The offense has gotten Bowe the ball in a position where he's been able to catch 9 of 10 passes thrown his way. You keep ignoring that fact in your misguided complaints. By the way, if "It's not that difficult", these great players would be catching 30 passes a game. As I noted in that other thread, not a single receiver in the top 20 last season caught more than 5 passes in every game.

ChiefsCountry
09-23-2009, 12:13 PM
Haley is starting to grow on me, I'm starting to kind of like him. I think his bad ass phase will pass through and could be a great coach. Pioli is the one I don't like.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 12:13 PM
I honestly didn't see Cassel progress through his reads that often. He was looking for the dump-off almost immediately on alot of plays.



How do you know the short safe pass wasn't the primary read?

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 12:13 PM
My points are:

1. Haley isn't above criticism.
2. The team problems are a combination of Pioli, Haley, the players and the team they inherited.
3. Some of the execution problems are a result of Haley's decisions.

1) I hope you didn't think I was trying to say he was.

2) Agreed.

3) It's very possible. Emphasis on the word "some". Take a look at the board this morning, or the Star. Haley is not taking SOME of the blame, and therein lies the problem...

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 12:13 PM
How do you know the short safe pass wasn't the primary read?

How do you know it was?

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 12:14 PM
I think the difference is that Haley ahsn't backed away from taking responsibility for othe mistakes.

Whe you have a guy that never shoulders the blame, that always throws players under the bus, then he doens't get any benefit of doubt.

When you have a guy that has taken responsibility for mistakes, he gains credibilty when he does "throw players under the bus".

And really, if a coach who is willing to shoulder blame for his mistakes, actually throwing players under the bus whne he does point out the player's mistakes?

Great post.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 12:17 PM
I honestly didn't see Cassel progress through his reads that often. He was looking for the dump-off almost immediately on alot of plays.

Look, I'm not suggesting Haley is above blame. But right now he's bearing the brunt of almost 99% of it and that's misplaced, IMO.

No way. 99%?

I'm not seeing that.

I'm seeing people question why Haley gets a pass for his players making the same mistakes Herm's did, and for that matter, making the same mistakes Herm did himself.

Personally, my biggest complaints are the uneven application of the "don't perform, I'll sit your ass" theory, and the fact that he's not doing enough to get our only offensive playmaker the ball.

Otherwise, I can live with the most of the other mistakes, and feel they'll be cleaned up.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 12:23 PM
What's his catch rate right now?



Calvin Johnson is a better receiver than Bowe. He's also playing for an 0-18 team over the past 2 seasons. He's also only got 8 catches. You might want to look for a better example.



The offense has gotten Bowe the ball in a position where he's been able to catch 9 of 10 passes thrown his way. You keep ignoring that fact in your misguided complaints. By the way, if "It's not that difficult", these great players would be catching 30 passes a game. As I noted in that other thread, not a single receiver in the top 20 last season caught more than 5 passes in every game.

My God, you're ignorant.

There's never been a WR in the history of the league that caught 90% of his TARGETS. Keep in mind that the ball doesn't have to be catchable to be chalked up as a target. The best WR's usually have a 2 target/1 reception ratio.

Bowe is NOT going to continue to catch 4/5 balls intended for him. Mostly, because 4/5 balls intended for him won't be catchable, the DB will defense the pass, or he'll drop it. You're foolish to say things are fine the way they are, because he's catching 5 balls a game.

I'm not sure why anyone even argues with you, considering your not even a fan of the fucking team, nor do you watch their games in their entirely. You're here for no other reason than to argue.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 12:28 PM
My God, you're ignorant.

There's never been a WR in the history of the league that caught 90% of his TARGETS. Keep in mind that the ball doesn't have to be catchable to be chalked up as a target. The best WR's usually have a 2 target/1 reception ratio.

Bowe is NOT going to continue to catch 4/5 balls intended for him. Mostly, because 4/5 balls intended for him won't be catchable, the DB will defense the pass, or he'll drop it. You're foolish to say things are fine the way they are, because he's catching 5 balls a game.

I'm not sure why anyone even argues with you, considering your not even a fan of the ****ing team, nor do you watch their games in their entirely. You're here for no other reason than to argue.

Again, what's Bowe's catch rate right now? As for watching the games, I have watched them. I just don't lose my mind with terrible arguments the way you're doing. You're arguing about 'targets' and pointing to Calvin Johnson, while ignoring the implications of what you're posting:

Calvin Johnson leads the league in targets, but he has fewer catches than Bowe.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 12:32 PM
The Jets are 10x more talented than KC, but when I see Ryan vs. Haley I see a big difference in approach toward the players. Ryan is a tough talker, but he has the team believing in themselves and they are all ready to walk through a wall for him. When I see Haley, I don't get the same "team" impression. I see players constantly under threat because of a misstep or error.

They're two different situations. The Jets had a living, breathing roster for Ryan to take control of. And he's just bringing his philosophy and attitude to the franchise, and fine-polishing his roster.
The Chiefs are a full-on expansion team at this point.

:rolleyes:

Oh look; the Pats fan disagrees. I'm shocked. SHOCKED I SAY!:rolleyes:

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 12:34 PM
Again, what's Bowe's catch rate right now? As for watching the games, I have watched them. I just don't lose my mind with terrible arguments the way you're doing. You're arguing about 'targets' and pointing to Calvin Johnson, while ignoring the implications of what you're posting:

Calvin Johnson leads the league in targets, but he has fewer catches than Bowe.

How many times do I have to say it?

He's catching 90% of his targets.

If you think that Dwayne Bowe is going to continue at that pace, being targeted 80 times and catching 72 balls, you're even more retarded than I thought.

FAX
09-23-2009, 12:35 PM
I think the difference is that Haley ahsn't backed away from taking responsibility for othe mistakes.

Whe you have a guy that never shoulders the blame, that always throws players under the bus, then he doens't get any benefit of doubt.

When you have a guy that has taken responsibility for mistakes, he gains credibilty when he does "throw players under the bus".

And really, if a coach who is willing to shoulder blame for his mistakes, actually throwing players under the bus whne he does point out the player's mistakes?

Agreed.

Haley's a different type of personality. The fact that he takes responsibility for his own mistakes precludes even the possibility that he'll throw a player under the bus.

He'll just stand them up against a wall and shoot them in the brain.

FAX

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 12:35 PM
Again, what's Bowe's catch rate right now? As for watching the games, I have watched them. I just don't lose my mind with terrible arguments the way you're doing. You're arguing about 'targets' and pointing to Calvin Johnson, while ignoring the implications of what you're posting:

Calvin Johnson leads the league in targets, but he has fewer catches than Bowe.

Teams try to get their playmakers the ball. Bolden (16), Fitz (16), Driver (16), Housemazilli(18), Ward (17), White (20).

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 12:37 PM
They're two different situations. The Jets had a living, breathing roster for Ryan to take control of. And he's just bringing his philosophy and attitude to the franchise, and fine-polishing his roster.
The Chiefs are a full-on expansion team at this point.




They are two different situations, but I don't think Ryan's personality would do a 180 based on his roster. I think that is the way he approaches things. Coaches don't tend to change their spots.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 12:42 PM
They are two different situations, but I don't think Ryan's personality would do a 180 based on his roster. I think that is the way he approaches things. Coaches don't tend to change their spots.

Point taken. OTWP made the observation of extending pre season in to the regular season as a detriment to winning, and I agree. It's time play football.
It's time to play to wi-

Oh shit.:doh!::D

Jilly
09-23-2009, 12:46 PM
It's only 2 games, who knows who the hells whose fault it is at this point. Let's not get all crazy just yet. Maybe they'll be like the Royals and wait til the end of the season to make the big push.

Tiger's Fan
09-23-2009, 01:25 PM
On one hand, the roster is pure shit.

On the other hand, they should be executing flawlessly at this point in the season.

Looks like a clash of stupidity to me.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 01:26 PM
How many times do I have to say it?

He's catching 90% of his targets.

If you think that Dwayne Bowe is going to continue at that pace, being targeted 80 times and catching 72 balls, you're even more retarded than I thought.

Let me try this one more time, since you keep deliberately ignoring the obvious in favor of complaining about nothing. I'll even flesh it out some more. Before I do so, I should note that Calvin Johnson is not listed as being #1 in 'targets' on the site I'm using. Steve Smith is #1 with 28 'targets':


1.) The league leaders in receptions have 16 catches.
2.) Bowe has 9 catches on 10 'targets'. That means that his catch rate is currently 90%
3.) C. Johnson, the player you chose as an example, has 8 catches, despite his 20 'targets'. That means that his catch rate is currently 40%
4.) Part of what leads to a catch rate is the difficulty of the catch. Double coverage and other factors feed into that.
5.) In 2007, Moss had a catch rate of 62% as the deep receiver for the Patriots. Welker's catch rate was 77%.
6.) In 2007, Fitzgerald had a catch rate of 60% as the deep(er) receiver for the Cardinals. Boldin's catch rate was 72%.
7.) In 2008, Fitzgerald had a catch rate of 62%. Boldin's was 71%

The two offenses that the Chiefs are 'coming from' utilize high catch rates, expecially from their #2 receivers. If a throw doesn't appear to be 'there', they look to another receiver. The Chiefs no longer have Gonzalez to draw coverage away from Bowe. In week 1, Croyle was under near constant assault, and Bowe is rarely going to be a 'hot' read against a blitzing defense. In week 2, Bowe was being covered by the best CB in the game, and the Raiders were also rotating a safety over to Bowe's side.

You're arguing a non-issue. Bowe will see more passes thrown his way as the opponent and the game plans allow. When that happens, the hope is that he'll keep catching a lot of the passes. For the record, Bowe has caught 57% of his 'targets' prior to this year.

Here's the site I used for the data:

http://www.fftoday.com/stats/playerprofile.php?PlayerID=2758

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 01:27 PM
On one hand, the roster is pure shit.

On the other hand, they should be executing flawlessly at this point in the season.

Looks like a clash of stupidity to me.

And it's the same people complaining about both things. Any excuse to bash the new regime...

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 01:35 PM
I'm not sure why anyone even argues with you, considering your not even a fan of the ****ing team, nor do you watch their games in their entirely. You're here for no other reason than to argue.

I'm not a Chiefs fan, yet I'm the one defending the team from what I perceive to be idiotic attacks. You claim to be a Chiefs fan, yet your standard operating procedure since I started posting here has been to attack pretty much everything the new regime has done, largely because your vagina got all sandy when the team went with Cassel instead of Sanchez, and you've been acting as more of a fan of that player than of 'your' team ever since.

Life does have its ironies.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 01:43 PM
No way. 99%?

I'm not seeing that.

I'm seeing people question why Haley gets a pass for his players making the same mistakes Herm's did, and for that matter, making the same mistakes Herm did himself.

Personally, my biggest complaints are the uneven application of the "don't perform, I'll sit your ass" theory, and the fact that he's not doing enough to get our only offensive playmaker the ball.

Otherwise, I can live with the most of the other mistakes, and feel they'll be cleaned up.

I see it right here in your post.

Where's the blame on Cassel for not looking Bowe's way? Where's the blame on Bowe for not getting open (several people reported after the game that he wasn't getting open even when Asamougha was out)?

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
09-23-2009, 01:55 PM
Personally I'm torn between

Chiefs journalists are embarrassing Kansas City

and

Chiefs fans are embarrassing Kansas City



Both are pretty accurate these days.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 02:02 PM
I'm not a Chiefs fan, yet I'm the one defending the team from what I perceive to be idiotic attacks. You claim to be a Chiefs fan, yet your standard operating procedure since I started posting here has been to attack pretty much everything the new regime has done, largely because your vagina got all sandy when the team went with Cassel instead of Sanchez, and you've been acting as more of a fan of that player than of 'your' team ever since.

Life does have its ironies.

Hey, another student from the Sauto School of Reading Comprhension.

I've FAR from blasted every move they've made.

I've said numerous times, and as recent as TODAY that Haley is growing on me. That DOESN'T mean he's exempt from criticism.

The Bobby Wade signing was a decent one, as was the O'Callaghan signing a few weeks back.

I've been over Sanchez since draft day, but people like yourself continue to bring it up to stir the pot. I've said countless times that I'm rooting for Cassel to do well, I just don't think he's a franchise QB, nor will become one.

That's the logical disconnect so many of you have when it comes to certain posters. NONE of us want to see the team fail week in and week out. I used to spend $4000 a season to travel to watch them play - why would I do that if I don't care about the team?

I've been a fan of this franchise for 30 years, and will continue to be one until I'm put in the ground. That doesn't mean I won't call it as I see it, and direct criticism when I feel it's deserved.

But go on, Patriot fan. Keep fighting the good fight.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 02:10 PM
I see it right here in your post.

Where's the blame on Cassel for not looking Bowe's way? Where's the blame on Bowe for not getting open (several people reported after the game that he wasn't getting open even when Asamougha was out)?

Why would I blame Cassel for not looking Bowe's way, when it's obvious by the routes he's running and watching Cassel make 1 or 2 reads and get rid of the ball?

Plays are designed to go to a particular player - and the times have been rare this season when Bowe has been Cassel's first read. Others may not be savvy enough to see it, but I know you are, so I'm not sure why you're arguing this.

As for Bowe not getting open, how is he going to get open when the routes he's asked to run is bringing the extra coverage TO HIM?

Watch the game again, and try to follow Bowe around the field. He's running 12-18 yard routes that give that safety a chance to get involved.

You know as well as I do that you take advantage of that coverage by running slants, quick hitches, putting Bowe in the slot, or putting him in motion - making it difficult, if not near impossible for him to be doubled.

Haley may be a rookie HC, but he's not a rookie OC. He's more than capable of putting his only playmaker in a position to succeed, and for whatever reason, hasn't.

I'd love for someone from the media to ask why Bowe's not getting the ball.

googlegoogle
09-23-2009, 02:16 PM
pretty good article.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 02:23 PM
Hey, another student from the Sauto School of Reading Comprhension.

I've FAR from blasted every move they've made.

I've said numerous times, and as recent as TODAY that Haley is growing on me. That DOESN'T mean he's exempt from criticism.

The Bobby Wade signing was a decent one, as was the O'Callaghan signing a few weeks back.

pretty much everything

You can see that I did not say it was everything. Nice try there, though.

I've been over Sanchez since draft day, but people like yourself continue to bring it up to stir the pot. I've said countless times that I'm rooting for Cassel to do well, I just don't think he's a franchise QB, nor will become one.

You've bagged on Cassel and the move at nearly every opportunity. Saying "I want him to succeed, but he...." is just another way to attack. By the way, whether or not he becomes a franchise QB should be irrelevant. The question should be whether or not he can help the franchise win. There are only 2 true franchise QBs in the NFL, although one could argue that Favre used to be one. If that's the standard you're looking for, there's probably not another QB currently in the league that's ever going to be a true franchise QB.

That's the logical disconnect so many of you have when it comes to certain posters. NONE of us want to see the team fail week in and week out. I used to spend $4000 a season to travel to watch them play - why would I do that if I don't care about the team?

I have no logical disconnect here at all. I understand full well that some fans get so 'hurt' by what their team does that they become bitter and start complaining about everything the team does. It's not an OTW thing. You're not unique. Hell, you're not even unique on this board for it.

I've been a fan of this franchise for 30 years, and will continue to be one until I'm put in the ground. That doesn't mean I won't call it as I see it, and direct criticism when I feel it's deserved.

But go on, Patriot fan. Keep fighting the good fight.

Again, I'm not a Chiefs fan, yet I'm defending what the Chiefs have done so far. You, on the other hand, claim to be a Chiefs fan yet you bitch almost nonstop about what a first year regime that's completely cleaning house has done. You piss and moan as if everything should have been accomplished already and the team should somehow have been stocked with 53 All Pro players, and Vince Lombardi should have risen from the grave to coach them.

This team had almost no talent. It had a lousy coach. It had a GM that pretty much everyone here hated. The team had been run into the ****ing ground. It was a 2 win team without a quarterback. Its best player wanted out. It probably had fewer than 10 players that even had a real chance to become more than JAG material. It was such a bad team that its starting safety was cut and STILL hasn't been picked up, even as a backup, by any other team. In fact, only about a handful of all the players cut loose have found any level of employment in the NFL since, and one of those is T.G. himself.

The team was, and still is, horrible, and yet you are pissing and moaning because a wide receiver that many say wasn't getting open didn't get the ball thrown his way enough by a QB that was coming off of injury and has to deal with a subpar offensive line. It's the second game of what's going to be a long season, and you're already bitching because a wideout hasn't had the ball thrown his way often enough to suit you.

You call that being a fan. I call that being an asshole. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 02:24 PM
Why would I blame Cassel for not looking Bowe's way, when it's obvious by the routes he's running and watching Cassel make 1 or 2 reads and get rid of the ball?

Plays are designed to go to a particular player - and the times have been rare this season when Bowe has been Cassel's first read. Others may not be savvy enough to see it, but I know you are, so I'm not sure why you're arguing this.

As for Bowe not getting open, how is he going to get open when the routes he's asked to run is bringing the extra coverage TO HIM?

Watch the game again, and try to follow Bowe around the field. He's running 12-18 yard routes that give that safety a chance to get involved.

You know as well as I do that you take advantage of that coverage by running slants, quick hitches, putting Bowe in the slot, or putting him in motion - making it difficult, if not near impossible for him to be doubled.

Haley may be a rookie HC, but he's not a rookie OC. He's more than capable of putting his only playmaker in a position to succeed, and for whatever reason, hasn't.

I'd love for someone from the media to ask why Bowe's not getting the ball.

If Bowe is going to be the elite receiver that Haley is trying to make him into, he's going to have to come down with the ball in double coverage. TG had double and sometimes triple coverage and would come down with the catch.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 02:27 PM
If Bowe is going to be the elite receiver that Haley is trying to make him into, he's going to have to come down with the ball in double coverage. TG had double and sometimes triple coverage and would come down with the catch.

Exactly.

I'm just shocked that people think that a supposed offensive mind like Haley is going to let the defense dictate when his only playmaker gets the ball.

Especially if we're going to continue throwing the ball 39 times a game.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 02:41 PM
You can see that I did not say it was everything. Nice try there, though.

I'd love for you to point out all the great moves that I've apparently missed. I've given them props for the moves I think are good for the franchise. I've balked at the one's that I think leave us spinning our wheels. Not sure what else you expect from me, other than to apparently sugar-coat moves I think were shitty for the sake of being more positive.


You've bagged on Cassel and the move at nearly every opportunity. Saying "I want him to succeed, but he...." is just another way to attack. By the way, whether or not he becomes a franchise QB should be irrelevant. The question should be whether or not he can help the franchise win. There are only 2 true franchise QBs in the NFL, although one could argue that Favre used to be one. If that's the standard you're looking for, there's probably not another QB currently in the league that's ever going to be a true franchise QB.

How is that attacking? It's an honest opinion, one I've held since BEFORE we traded for the fucking guy. If you want to jump someone's ass about their opinions on Cassel, how about the people that didn't want him, then the minute we traded for him decided it was a great move?

Instead, the people who have stuck to their opinions and haven't flip-flopped are seen as attacking Cassel for holding an opinion.

And apparently, you have a fucked up idea of what a franchise QB is.


I have no logical disconnect here at all. I understand full well that some fans get so 'hurt' by what their team does that they become bitter and start complaining about everything the team does. It's not an OTW thing. You're not unique. Hell, you're not even unique on this board for it.

Thanks, dimestore psychologist. I'm so hurt and bitter I just spent $125 dollars for a ticket to see them play the Cowboys, even though I know we're outmatched. You want bitter, find the guys that have said year after year that they're done with this team, only to be back here posting within days.


Again, I'm not a Chiefs fan, yet I'm defending what the Chiefs have done so far. You, on the other hand, claim to be a Chiefs fan yet you bitch almost nonstop about what a first year regime that's completely cleaning house has done. You piss and moan as if everything should have been accomplished already and the team should somehow have been stocked with 53 All Pro players, and Vince Lombardi should have risen from the grave to coach them.

I don't expect everything to be done already, but I do expect something to get accomplished. I've said from the get-go that this team wouldn't win more than 3-4 games. But I do expect the people in charge to be bringing in players that will help this franchise in 2010, 2011, etc and not just replace Herm's scrubs with their scrubs.

Yeah, we brought in 30 new players. How many of them are any better than the players we replaced?

This team had almost no talent. It had a lousy coach. It had a GM that pretty much everyone here hated. The team had been run into the ****ing ground. It was a 2 win team without a quarterback. Its best player wanted out. It probably had fewer than 10 players that even had a real chance to become more than JAG material. It was such a bad team that its starting safety was cut and STILL hasn't been picked up, even as a backup, by any other team. In fact, only about a handful of all the players cut loose have found any level of employment in the NFL since, and one of those is T.G. himself.

And? Is that supposed to be an excuse, because the rest of the league isn't going to feel sorry for us.

The team was, and still is, horrible, and yet you are pissing and moaning because a wide receiver that many say wasn't getting open didn't get the ball thrown his way enough by a QB that was coming off of injury and has to deal with a subpar offensive line. It's the second game of what's going to be a long season, and you're already bitching because a wideout hasn't had the ball thrown his way often enough to suit you.

If you don't understand the concept of getting the ball to your only playmaker, I can't help you.

You call that being a fan. I call that being an asshole. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Oh noes, the Patriots fan thinks I'm an asshole. However will I sleep tonight?

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 02:50 PM
I find it extremely strange that a Pats fan who's team is clearly showing cracks, and who got their asses DEMOLISHED by a rookie head coach and rookie QB, prefers to spend time here defending someone who is no longer a part of his franchise as opposed to chatting up the Patriot Nation and perhaps discussing some very obvious issues that are worthy of time and consideration.

Dude's on the payroll. It couldn't be more transparent.

FAX
09-23-2009, 02:57 PM
I'm intrigued by the fact that people are reporting Bowe had difficulty getting open. It seems as though sometimes he can and sometimes he can't ... regardless of who is covering him or how.

On various occasions, Haley has said that he doesn't want a "yo-yo" team with "yo-yo" players. Initially, I took that to mean that (when encountering someone) he wanted his players to say, "Hi." or "Howdy." or "Greetings, Earthling." or words of that nature as opposed to "Yo". After all, we're a Midwestern franchise.

Now, however, I realize that he was talking about consistency. Bowe doesn't seem to have much of that. Neither (at this point), does anyone else, really. The o-line is inconsistent, the backs are inconsistent, the defense is inconsistent ... pretty much everybody is inconsistent. The point is that, I'm not sure how well we can judge Haley's coaching ability unless or until he gets consistency out of this group of players ... or the next group.

When you think about it, the inability to rely upon his guys to perform in a particular fashion at a particular level on a particular day, makes it pretty darn difficult to know how to prepare for a game - let alone call one.

FAX

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 03:01 PM
I'd love for you to point out all the great moves that I've apparently missed. I've given them props for the moves I think are good for the franchise. I've balked at the one's that I think leave us spinning our wheels. Not sure what else you expect from me, other than to apparently sugar-coat moves I think were shitty for the sake of being more positive.

Honest appraisal instead of biased horseshit reactions would be a good start.

How is that attacking? It's an honest opinion, one I've held since BEFORE we traded for the ****ing guy. If you want to jump someone's ass about their opinions on Cassel, how about the people that didn't want him, then the minute we traded for him decided it was a great move?

Instead, the people who have stuck to their opinions and haven't flip-flopped are seen as attacking Cassel for holding an opinion.

No, holding an opinion is not at issue. I don't personally give a rat's ass about your opinion of Cassel, because it's not an opinion that has a right or wrong answer as of now. I've said myself here that I don't know exactly what to think of him, given his unusual circumstances. What's at issue is the all but incessant droning on about it. Whether you like it or not, he's the Chiefs starting QB. Deal with it and move forward instead of using it as a baseline for all your subsequent complaining.

And apparently, you have a ****ed up idea of what a franchise QB is.

Cassel was a top 10 rated QB in terms of passer rating last season. That wasn't enough to make him a 'franchise' QB in your eyes. It's a personal judgment that far too many people don't bother to actually think about. In the league right now, there are only 2 QBs that have proven they can take teams and carry them to the Super Bowl, or deep into the playoffs, time and again. Hell, if I focused on just the playoffs, I'd be tempted to drop Manning from the list and put Roethlisberger in his place.

Thanks, dimestore psychologist. I'm so hurt and bitter I just spent $125 dollars for a ticket to see them play the Cowboys, even though I know we're outmatched. You want bitter, find the guys that have said year after year that they're done with this team, only to be back here posting within days.

Plenty of bitter fans pony up the cash. It happens all the time. Again, one is not exclusive of the other.

I don't expect everything to be done already, but I do expect something to get accomplished. I've said from the get-go that this team wouldn't win more than 3-4 games. But I do expect the people in charge to be bringing in players that will help this franchise in 2010, 2011, etc and not just replace Herm's scrubs with their scrubs.

Something clearly has been accomplished. This argument is completely invalid unless, of course, you're claiming that every move has been a failure.

Yeah, we brought in 30 new players. How many of them are any better than the players we replaced?

If the front office and/or coaches didn't think they were a better fit for the team, the new players wouldn't be here.

And? Is that supposed to be an excuse, because the rest of the league isn't going to feel sorry for us.

It's not about the rest of the league feeling sorry for the Chiefs or Chiefs fans. It's about having some reasonable expectations and not acting like a petulant child when things develop pretty much as was expected. I mean, if you looked at the schedule before the season began, you didn't say "2-0 Baby, even if the team's backup QB has to start in week 1 and the starter isn't 100% in week 2!". This team is just about where you should have expected it to be.

If you don't understand the concept of getting the ball to your only playmaker, I can't help you.

If you don't understand the concepts of "throwing to the open receiver" and "having to throw underneath because of pressure or coverage", I can't help you.

Oh noes, the Patriots fan thinks I'm an asshole. However will I sleep tonight?

Oh no, OTW thinks calling me a Patriots fan is some kind of insult. However will I survive? JFC, now you're going with a 6 year old's attitude.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 03:01 PM
FAX;6102934
On various occasions, Haley has said that he doesn't want a "yo-yo" team with "yo-yo" players. Initially, I took that to mean that (when encountering someone) he wanted his players to say, "Hi." or "Howdy." or "Greetings, Earthling." or words of that nature as opposed to "Yo". After all, we're a Midwestern franchise.


FAX

LMAO

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:02 PM
Why would I blame Cassel for not looking Bowe's way, when it's obvious by the routes he's running and watching Cassel make 1 or 2 reads and get rid of the ball?

Why wouldn't you? Unless you're not interested in really discussing what's wrong with the team and instead just wanting to bash on Haley?

There were SEVERAL times where Cassel never bothered to look downfield before dumping it off. That's not "making 1 or 2 reads" at all. That's skipping the reads altogether. Furthermore, there were SEVERAL people that have reported that the Chiefs WR's, including Bowe, can't get open.

Plays are designed to go to a particular player - and the times have been rare this season when Bowe has been Cassel's first read. Others may not be savvy enough to see it, but I know you are, so I'm not sure why you're arguing this.

Plays are designed to PREFER a specific player. If they were supposed to go to that player, there wouldn't be secondary and tertiary reads on almost every pass play in football. Cassel has played ONE game, so yeah, it probably IS rare that Bowe has been his first read, considering he's pass all of THIRTY NINE TIMES. And again, the reason I'm arguing this is because I watched the game - and I saw Cassel SEVERAL time not even BOTHER to go through his progressions.

As for Bowe not getting open, how is he going to get open when the routes he's asked to run is bringing the extra coverage TO HIM?

So now it's Haley's fault too that Bowe can't get open? Was it Haley's fault the past 2 years when he struggled with it, too? And did you think that maybe teams are sending extra coverage because we don't have any other WR threat on the team? I know you saw Wade catch all those passes on Sunday, and I'm sure you know WHY. Right?

You know as well as I do that you take advantage of that coverage by running slants, quick hitches, putting Bowe in the slot, or putting him in motion - making it difficult, if not near impossible for him to be doubled.

What? You put Bowe in those situations and they double him anyway! Not only that but you allow the safety in double-coverage to also stack the box against the run.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:04 PM
Exactly.

I'm just shocked that people think that a supposed offensive mind like Haley is going to let the defense dictate when his only playmaker gets the ball.

Especially if we're going to continue throwing the ball 39 times a game.

ROFL

What in the world makes you think Haley has the ABILITY to stop the defense from dictating when Bowe gets the ball? The fact that we don't have a single All-Pro player on offense?

EVERYBODY knows Bowe is the only playmaker. Acting like Haley could snap his fingers and change that fact is borderline absurd.

I mean, it's Haley's fault I guess that he hasn't designed an offense that only allows the defense to have 10 men on the field.

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 03:05 PM
Bowe can't get open, except for Thigpen and Huard. Then he can have 1000 yard seasons.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:05 PM
I'm intrigued by the fact that people are reporting Bowe had difficulty getting open. It seems as though sometimes he can and sometimes he can't ... regardless of who is covering him or how.

I'd like to know who the people are claiming he couldn't get open, and if they understand what they were watching, Mr. FAX.

I've talked to 3 different friends who were at the game on Sunday, with seats in the upper deck affording them a full view.

Unsolicited, every one of them mentioned that Bowe's routes routinely took him directly into the help the CB was getting from the safety.

Of course the guy isn't going to get open, when he's being instructed to run routes that bring coverage TO him rather than running routes AWAY from that extra help.

They all had the impression that Bowe was nothing more than the sacrificial lamb for the day, dragging a CB and safety around the field so Wade and the RB's could make plays underneath.

Personally, I'm not a fan of our only offensive playmaker being used as a decoy.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:13 PM
Bowe can't get open, except for Thigpen and Huard. Then he can have 1000 yard seasons.

There have been numerous reports from fans at the games and the media over the past 3 years that Bowe has trouble getting separation.

That doesn't prevent the QB from forcing the ball - we all know Bowe has made some spectacular catches over those same 3 years.

Cassel just doesn't appear willing to to do that. The couple of times he did, it ended in turnovers.

To me, Cassel looked SEVERELY overmatched out there. But we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about how poor of a coach Todd Haley is.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:14 PM
I'd like to know who the people are claiming he couldn't get open, and if they understand what they were watching, Mr. FAX.

I've talked to 3 different friends who were at the game on Sunday, with seats in the upper deck affording them a full view.

Unsolicited, every one of them mentioned that Bowe's routes routinely took him directly into the help the CB was getting from the safety.

Of course the guy isn't going to get open, when he's being instructed to run routes that bring coverage TO him rather than running routes AWAY from that extra help.

They all had the impression that Bowe was nothing more than the sacrificial lamb for the day, dragging a CB and safety around the field so Wade and the RB's could make plays underneath.

Personally, I'm not a fan of our only offensive playmaker being used as a decoy.

So now Bowe's absence in the offense is a DELIBERATE ploy by the head coach, one that will ABSOLUTELY lose games?

You HONESTLY think Haley is going to lose games on purpose to prove a point?

Chiefnj2
09-23-2009, 03:17 PM
So now Bowe's absence in the offense is a DELIBERATE ploy by the head coach, one that will ABSOLUTELY lose games?

You HONESTLY think Haley is going to lose games on purpose to prove a point?

Why are you so disingenuous with your reply. You know damn well the point he was trying to make was that Haley was using Bowe as a decoy instead of the go-to guy.

DaneMcCloud
09-23-2009, 03:17 PM
So now Bowe's absence in the offense is a DELIBERATE ploy by the head coach, one that will ABSOLUTELY lose games?

You HONESTLY think Haley is going to lose games on purpose to prove a point?

Sitting Bradley and DJ certainly point towards that conclusion.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:20 PM
Honest appraisal instead of biased horseshit reactions would be a good start.

Shocking. Out of over 30 moves, you couldn't name one, so you went for the personal attack.


No, holding an opinion is not at issue. I don't personally give a rat's ass about your opinion of Cassel, because it's not an opinion that has a right or wrong answer as of now. I've said myself here that I don't know exactly what to think of him, given his unusual circumstances. What's at issue is the all but incessant droning on about it. Whether you like it or not, he's the Chiefs starting QB. Deal with it and move forward instead of using it as a baseline for all your subsequent complaining.

I have dealt with it, have since draft day. Rooted for him on Sunday to do well. Not sure how to make it much clearer. Not a fan of the move, but I hope I'm proven wrong, or it's going to suck around here for the next 5 years.



Cassel was a top 10 rated QB in terms of passer rating last season. That wasn't enough to make him a 'franchise' QB in your eyes. It's a personal judgment that far too many people don't bother to actually think about. In the league right now, there are only 2 QBs that have proven they can take teams and carry them to the Super Bowl, or deep into the playoffs, time and again. Hell, if I focused on just the playoffs, I'd be tempted to drop Manning from the list and put Roethlisberger in his place.

Great. Any chance we can get Moss, Welker and Belichcik over here to KC? If so, I'd feel a lot better about his potential. And even then, I don't think, even with all those weapons and the best coaching in the league, that he could or would win a SB with it.


Plenty of bitter fans pony up the cash. It happens all the time. Again, one is not exclusive of the other.

Good for them. Too bad you missed on your diagnosis of me, Doc.



Something clearly has been accomplished. This argument is completely invalid unless, of course, you're claiming that every move has been a failure.

What do you think has been accomplished?



If the front office and/or coaches didn't think they were a better fit for the team, the new players wouldn't be here.

Doesn't make them right. Chad Jackson, Lawrence Maroney, the list goes on. Pioli is human, and makes (and has made PLENTY) of mistakes before. Let's not act like he's infallible.



It's not about the rest of the league feeling sorry for the Chiefs or Chiefs fans. It's about having some reasonable expectations and not acting like a petulant child when things develop pretty much as was expected. I mean, if you looked at the schedule before the season began, you didn't say "2-0 Baby, even if the team's backup QB has to start in week 1 and the starter isn't 100% in week 2!". This team is just about where you should have expected it to be.

I reasonably expected them to win 3-4 games this year. That doesn't mean that I can't direct some criticism at individuals that deserve it when a game that should have been won was lost due to coaching and QB mistakes.



If you don't understand the concepts of "throwing to the open receiver" and "having to throw underneath because of pressure or coverage", I can't help you.

I do. However, if you actually watch the game, he's not being looked at, nor running routes that have any chance of him getting open. The OC calls plays designed to get the ball to certain players, and Bowe wasn't one of those players on Sunday - which is unconscionable, IMO.


Oh no, OTW thinks calling me a Patriots fan is some kind of insult. However will I survive? JFC, now you're going with a 6 year old's attitude.

Well, if I have to talk in language a 6-year-old would use to get you to understand, so be it.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:21 PM
So now Bowe's absence in the offense is a DELIBERATE ploy by the head coach, one that will ABSOLUTELY lose games?

You HONESTLY think Haley is going to lose games on purpose to prove a point?

Why are you so disingenuous with your reply. You know damn well the point he was trying to make was that Haley was using Bowe as a decoy instead of the go-to guy.

This.

C'mon, Parker.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:21 PM
Why are you so disingenuous with your reply. You know damn well the point he was trying to make was that Haley was using Bowe as a decoy instead of the go-to guy.

ROFL

I know EXACTLY what point he was trying to make.

We all agree that Bowe is our biggest weapon, if not our ONLY weapon on offense. OTWP himself has said it a half dozen times in this thread.

Using your only weapon as a decoy is defeatist BY DEFINITION. There's no other way to view it - if Haley is using Bowe as a decoy, he's putting himself in a position to DELIBERATELY lose games.

Who is it that's being disingenuous here?

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:22 PM
Sitting Bradley and DJ certainly point towards that conclusion.

Because we've won so many games with them as the starters, right?

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:24 PM
This.

C'mon, Parker.

See my response.

This whole discussion is ridiculous.

Using Bowe as a decoy so that Wade can get catches is tantamount to handing the Raiders the game.

If you want to believe Haley is that stupid, so be it - I can't stop you.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 03:24 PM
Because we've won so many games with them as the starters, right?

Okay that was lame.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:25 PM
Okay that was lame.

So you like watching RB's run through the gap DJ was SUPPOSED to be in, en route to a 40-yard TD?

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-23-2009, 03:25 PM
ROR makes a good point. Is Just Fisting Myself the Rufus Dawes of the new regime, set loose like an invasive species upon message boards? Why the fuck an opposing team's fan would want to discuss our personnel moves in such excruciating detail is beyond a bit bizarre.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:28 PM
Sitting Bradley and DJ certainly point towards that conclusion.

I'm not going to go as far as to say he's deliberately trying to lose games, that's absurd.

I'm wondering if he thinks his "message" is more important than winning, however.

And the uneven application of the message is bothersome to me.

Bradley, you didn't get to the 1st down marker in Baltimore. Sit.

Charles, I don't like your face. Sit.

DJ, you have a ton of talent, and even playing at 50% you're better than every LB we have. But until you start showing your full potential, sit.

Mike Goff, you're not even an upgrade over the schmuck we had here last year. Your play is downright embarrassing. Niswanger, Ndukwe, are you two slapdicks listening? This applies to you too. I know I threaten other players when their performance is suffering, but I won't sit you, even though it makes me look like a hypocrite.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:30 PM
So you like watching RB's run through the gap DJ was SUPPOSED to be in, en route to a 40-yard TD?

As opposed to watching them run through the gap that Beisel was supposed to be in, en route to a 40-yard TD?

Coach the kid up, and get his ass out there.

Even playing at 50% of his talent level, he's still leaps and bounds better than any other LB we have.

He's not going to get better sitting on the fucking bench.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:30 PM
ROR makes a good point. Is Just Fisting Myself the Rufus Dawes of the new regime, set loose like an invasive species upon message boards? Why the **** an opposing team's fan would want to discuss our personnel moves in such excruciating detail is beyond a bit bizarre.

ROFL

It would be funny, that's for sure.

But sometimes you just have to dismiss such things as people being weird. After all, why were there a couple of Jets fans still here telling us how bad Herm was AFTER he was fired?

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:33 PM
ROR makes a good point. Is Just Fisting Myself the Rufus Dawes of the new regime, set loose like an invasive species upon message boards? Why the fuck an opposing team's fan would want to discuss our personnel moves in such excruciating detail is beyond a bit bizarre.


Nevermind.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:35 PM
I'm not going to go as far as to say he's deliberately trying to lose games, that's absurd.

Fair enough.

I'm wondering if he thinks his "message" is more important than winning, however.

See, this bothers me. We've heard OVER AND OVER this offseason that this team will be lucky to win 3 games. Hell, some have even said that 0-16 isn't out of the question. But now suddenly because we're 0-2, winning becomes paramount?

What if his "message" is necessary to foster LONG-TERM winning? You know, when it COUNTS?

And the uneven application of the message is bothersome to me.

Bradley, you didn't get to the 1st down marker in Baltimore. Sit.

Charles, I don't like your face. Sit.

DJ, you have a ton of talent, and even playing at 50% you're better than every LB we have. But until you start showing your full potential, sit.

Mike Goff, you're not even an upgrade over the schmuck we had here last year. Your play is downright embarrassing. Niswanger, Ndukwe, are you two slapdicks listening? This applies to you too. I know I threaten other players when their performance is suffering, but I won't sit you, even though it makes me look like a hypocrite.

We have zero idea what goes down at practices. Jamaal Charles is a perfect example - what would you say if he had played on Sunday and muffed a punt to lose the game, only to find out that he had fumbled 4 times in practice that week but the coach played him anyway?

There's alot more to this than any of us know, and you're attempting to reduce it to some kind of petty mind game. I would have thought most of us have seen enough football to get past this kind of stuff.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 03:36 PM
So you like watching RB's run through the gap DJ was SUPPOSED to be in, en route to a 40-yard TD?

I want the best players on the field, not in "time out".

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:40 PM
As opposed to watching them run through the gap that Beisel was supposed to be in, en route to a 40-yard TD?

That's a nice hypothetical. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

In the first game where Haley sat DJ on obvious running downs, against a team that was supposed to put 300 rushing yards on us, we gave up 67 yards on 25 carries. It's not a coincidence, as much as anybody wants it to be.

Even playing at 50% of his talent level, he's still leaps and bounds better than any other LB we have.

Obviously not, since we had one of our best rushing defensive performances in years while DJ was sitting on the bench.

He's not going to get better sitting on the ****ing bench.

He's not going to get better AT ALL. Derrick Johnson is what he is - fast, athletic, and undisciplined. He's a 5th-year player. He's not ascending. And after this year, hopefully he won't be a Chief either.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:41 PM
I want the best players on the field, not in "time out".

The fact that people are this worked up about Derrick Johnson, going so far as to refer to him as one of our best players, just shows how bad it is.

Derrick Johnson isn't even the 6th-best player on that defense.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:43 PM
Fair enough.

See, this bothers me. We've heard OVER AND OVER this offseason that this team will be lucky to win 3 games. Hell, some have even said that 0-16 isn't out of the question. But now suddenly because we're 0-2, winning becomes paramount?

What if his "message" is necessary to foster LONG-TERM winning? You know, when it COUNTS?

You know, Parker, I'm really not that bent out of shape over the loss. Hell, I predicted a loss. But I've heard all summer about how important it is to get some wins so the team experiences them, and knows what it takes to get there.

So when you have a game for the taking, and give it away because of QB and coaching mistakes, it opens the door for criticism.



We have zero idea what goes down at practices. Jamaal Charles is a perfect example - what would you say if he had played on Sunday and muffed a punt to lose the game, only to find out that he had fumbled 4 times in practice that week but the coach played him anyway?

There's alot more to this than any of us know, and you're attempting to reduce it to some kind of petty mind game. I would have thought most of us have seen enough football to get past this kind of stuff.

In the case of Charles, the kid said he had no idea why he was sat. Haley went on to say that he wanted to see Savage, and someone had to be the odd man out.

I'll be honest, I'm making an assumption with Bradley, though I think it's an educated one. Haley made several disparaging comments in the post game at Baltimore that were obvious jabs at Bradley, then the dude sits the following week, and the guy they brought in to replace him is featured after 3 days with the playbook.

Draw your own conclusions, but that one leans towards "doghouse" to me.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 03:46 PM
Shocking. Out of over 30 moves, you couldn't name one, so you went for the personal attack.

Ok, given that you'd already said you liked 2 of the moves, why would you expect that I'd go about listing more rather than just answering your question as it was asked? Given your position of bitching about the moves, why would I bother posting moves I thought were good when you're just going to come back with "That's not a good move"? However, since you seem to insist, I'll gladly list some.....

Good moves:

Cassel trade
Drafting D-line in round 1
Getting a CB with a lot of potential as a 'flyer' pick in round 4
Getting a usable player out of "Mr. Irrelevant"
Bringing in Zach Thomas
Canning the previous scouting staff
Hiring Haley
Ditching Gailey when it was determined that it wasn't going to work
Bringing in low cost veterans to compete for spots and help change the culture
Trading Gonzalez and getting a second round pick in what should be a deep draft
Grabbing Wade when he became available
Bringing in O'Callaghan for a look once he was waived
Trading for a couple of veteran lineman when the current ones weren't getting it done
Signing Mike Brown

That seems like a pretty good start to me.

I reasonably expected them to win 3-4 games this year. That doesn't mean that I can't direct some criticism at individuals that deserve it when a game that should have been won was lost due to coaching and QB mistakes.

I think assigning any win total as an expectation for this team is a nice exercise when it's done in fun. The moment you change "hope/expect" to "demand/expect" with a team that's this bereft of talent, you set yourself up for disappointment and more needless bitterness.

I do. However, if you actually watch the game, he's not being looked at, nor running routes that have any chance of him getting open. The OC calls plays designed to get the ball to certain players, and Bowe wasn't one of those players on Sunday - which is unconscionable, IMO.

I have watched the games. I watched the Oakland game twice, in fact. Were you in the room with the coaches when they drew up the game plan, or in the huddle with Cassel when he called the plays?

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:46 PM
The fact that people are this worked up about Derrick Johnson, going so far as to refer to him as one of our best players, just shows how bad it is.

Derrick Johnson isn't even the 6th-best player on that defense.

He may not be, but he's still, even with all his faults, the best LB, and the one with the most potential.

It's also no coincidence that Dorsey and Tyler had arguably their best games as Chiefs in the same game the Raiders were held to 67 yards.

If you honestly think that taking DJ off the field and playing Beisel HELPS this team, go ahead, I can't stop you.

EyePod
09-23-2009, 03:49 PM
GoChiefs - a little critique based on the headline and the first sentence of your article, repeated below:

Chiefs' Players Are Embarrassing Haley

Crucifying Todd Haley after two games is ignorant, impatient and ludicrous, especially when he has given one of the least talented rosters in the entire NFL a chance to win both games.

What is the subject of the first sentence, i.e. who is doing the crucifying? My brain demanded a subject. Since there was not one readily available, I filled in "Chief's Players". Which of course was wrong. But I didn't realize that until 1/3 the way through the article. Be very careful with sentences with implied subjects. Better to explicitly state the subject. There is a name for this style ambiguity but I'm too lazy to find it now.

Is he supposed to say "To you the reader: Crucifying...." You knew what he meant. Stop being an a-hole. And Haley also lost the game by not kicking a fucking FG at the end of the 1st half. His eyes were too big for his stomach then.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:50 PM
You know, Parker, I'm really not that bent out of shape over the loss. Hell, I predicted a loss.

I'm not either. Just here to shoot the shit, as usual. Unfortunately, a losing team tends to add vitriol to the discussion, but hopefully we can keep it civil.

But I've heard all summer about how important it is to get some wins so the team experiences them, and knows what it takes to get there.

EXACTLY. EGG-FREAKING-ZACKLY.

When your kid needs to do his homework so that he can learn multiplication, and you give him a calculator, he got his homework done, but you DIDN'T TEACH HIM TO MULTIPLY. You taught him how to use a calculator.

So when you have a game for the taking, and give it away because of QB and coaching mistakes, it opens the door for criticism.

OK, so now we're ready to talk about QB mistakes too. I'm ready for that. :)

In the case of Charles, the kid said he had no idea why he was sat. Haley went on to say that he wanted to see Savage, and someone had to be the odd man out.

Obviously, Savage did something in practice that made Haley think he deserved playing time. Savage had 3 rushes for 26 yards and 6 catches for 43 yards. I fail to see why this is even a discussion. Haley thought he deserved to play, and it's pretty obvious that he did.

I'll be honest, I'm making an assumption with Bradley, though I think it's an educated one. Haley made several disparaging comments in the post game at Baltimore that were obvious jabs at Bradley, then the dude sits the following week, and the guy they brought in to replace him is featured after 3 days with the playbook.

Draw your own conclusions, but that one leans towards "doghouse" to me.

I don't think you're making a faulty assumption at all. I absolutely think Bradley is in the doghouse.

Where we differ, I think, is that I think Bradley SHOULD be in the doghouse.

Branden Albert should be next.

EyePod
09-23-2009, 03:51 PM
He may not be, but he's still, even with all his faults, the best LB, and the one with the most potential.

It's also no coincidence that Dorsey and Tyler had arguably their best games as Chiefs in the same game the Raiders were held to 67 yards.

If you honestly think that taking DJ off the field and playing Beisel HELPS this team, go ahead, I can't stop you.

Beisel wouldn't help, he's just a GREAT backup. That doesn't mean he should play a lot. He's kind of like a McGraw, where you can put him in if you have to and he'll be better than the average backup, but he's never been good enough to start. And DJ hasn't been bad, and I'd argue that Vrabel is our best LB. He is probably worth the 2nd rounder alone with our crap team.

EyePod
09-23-2009, 03:53 PM
Branden Albert should be next.

Albert definitely looks worse, but teams do have tape on him now. He's gonna have to adjust how he's playing as we go through the season.

Fish
09-23-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm not going to go as far as to say he's deliberately trying to lose games, that's absurd.

I'm wondering if he thinks his "message" is more important than winning, however.

And the uneven application of the message is bothersome to me.

Bradley, you didn't get to the 1st down marker in Baltimore. Sit.

Charles, I don't like your face. Sit.

DJ, you have a ton of talent, and even playing at 50% you're better than every LB we have. But until you start showing your full potential, sit.

Mike Goff, you're not even an upgrade over the schmuck we had here last year. Your play is downright embarrassing. Niswanger, Ndukwe, are you two slapdicks listening? This applies to you too. I know I threaten other players when their performance is suffering, but I won't sit you, even though it makes me look like a hypocrite.

This is what's bothering me too. The inconsistency. This method appears to put a lot of pressure on the players too. I mean, Charles is saying he doesn't even know why he was benched. I wonder if players are holding back because they're scared of making a mistake?

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:54 PM
He may not be, but he's still, even with all his faults, the best LB, and the one with the most potential.

This is the 5th season of DJ's potential. If you want to hold out hope for him, that's cool with me. But I'm moving on. I'm firmly convinced that he's maxed out. He doesn't have the head to play football at a high level. It's a shame, but that's just the way it is.

It's also no coincidence that Dorsey and Tyler had arguably their best games as Chiefs in the same game the Raiders were held to 67 yards.

That's fair.

If you honestly think that taking DJ off the field and playing Beisel HELPS this team, go ahead, I can't stop you.

I honestly do. I'm tired of seeing DJ against the run. He's being utilized EXACTLY the way I'd like to see him used, so of course I'm a bit biased in this case. Right now, for one game, the results on the field are on my side. We'll see if it holds up long-term.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:54 PM
I'm not either. Just here to shoot the shit, as usual. Unfortunately, a losing team tends to add vitriol to the discussion, but hopefully we can keep it civil.



EXACTLY. EGG-FREAKING-ZACKLY.

When your kid needs to do his homework so that he can learn multiplication, and you give him a calculator, he got his homework done, but you DIDN'T TEACH HIM TO MULTIPLY. You taught him how to use a calculator.



OK, so now we're ready to talk about QB mistakes too. I'm ready for that. :)



Obviously, Savage did something in practice that made Haley think he deserved playing time. Savage had 3 rushes for 26 yards and 6 catches for 43 yards. I fail to see why this is even a discussion. Haley thought he deserved to play, and it's pretty obvious that he did.



I don't think you're making a faulty assumption at all. I absolutely think Bradley is in the doghouse.

Where we differ, I think, is that I think Bradley SHOULD be in the doghouse.

Branden Albert should be next.

No reason to have that QB discussion, then, as we'll be seeing a new one very soon after, should you get your wish.

:D

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:55 PM
Albert definitely looks worse, but teams do have tape on him now. He's gonna have to adjust how he's playing as we go through the season.

It's not the blown assignments. Like you said, he's gonna have to adjust.

Having multiple procedure penalties a game, however, is not going to cut it.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 03:56 PM
No reason to have that QB discussion, then, as we'll be seeing a new one very soon after, should you get your wish.

:D

ROFL

Yeah, unfortunately we don't have alot of options there. I would just like to see Branden concentrate a little bit. The penalties are a killer.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:56 PM
This is the 5th season of DJ's potential. If you want to hold out hope for him, that's cool with me. But I'm moving on. I'm firmly convinced that he's maxed out. He doesn't have the head to play football at a high level. It's a shame, but that's just the way it is.



That's fair.



I honestly do. I'm tired of seeing DJ against the run. He's being utilized EXACTLY the way I'd like to see him used, so of course I'm a bit biased in this case. Right now, for one game, the results on the field are on my side. We'll see if it holds up long-term.

Fair enough.

I don't have any wild dreams about DJ ever living up to his draft status, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that Monty fucking Beisel is a better LB.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 03:57 PM
ROFL

Yeah, unfortunately we don't have alot of options there. I would just like to see Branden concentrate a little bit. The penalties are a killer.

Yeah, we shipped out the only two options we had.

But I should stop there, for fear of being accused of being negative again.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-23-2009, 03:58 PM
Good moves:

Drafting D-line in round 1
Getting a CB with a lot of potential as a 'flyer' pick in round 4
Bringing in Zach Thomas
Trading for a couple of veteran lineman when the current ones weren't getting it done


That seems like a pretty good start to me.





http://i40.tinypic.com/1zev22b.jpg

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 04:02 PM
Fair enough.

I don't have any wild dreams about DJ ever living up to his draft status, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that Monty ****ing Beisel is a better LB.

Monty Beisel is a more SOLID linebacker. And right now, that's what this team needs. One long INT return every 5 games isn't going to build consistency.

DJ needs to be on a team that's ready to win. DJ would have been great in place of Maslowski on that 2003 team, for example, because Mike's lack of athleticism was crucial down the stretch in not getting it done.

THIS team, however, needs Mike Maslowski, not DJ.

If you have a Corvette that can do 140 in the quarter mile, but only starts once in every 4 tries, it's definitely your fastest car. But it's not your BEST.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah, we shipped out the only two options we had.

But I should stop there, for fear of being accused of being negative again.

Dude, be negative. Nothing wrong with it. I've been plenty critical of the team since returning.

I've just always been one to nitpick about fairness and objectivity when it comes to who gets the blame.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 04:04 PM
Monty Beisel is a more SOLID linebacker. And right now, that's what this team needs. One long INT return every 5 games isn't going to build consistency.

DJ needs to be on a team that's ready to win. DJ would have been great in place of Maslowski on that 2003 team, for example, because Mike's lack of athleticism was crucial down the stretch in not getting it done.

THIS team, however, needs Mike Maslowski, not DJ.

If you have a Corvette that can do 140 in the quarter mile, but only starts once in every 4 tries, it's definitely your fastest car. But it's not your BEST.

Wow.

I thought I was critical of DJ.

I respect your opinion, I'm not gonna bash it. But your thoughts on Beisel are leaving me shaking my head.

EyePod
09-23-2009, 04:07 PM
This is what's bothering me too. The inconsistency. This method appears to put a lot of pressure on the players too. I mean, Charles is saying he doesn't even know why he was benched. I wonder if players are holding back because they're scared of making a mistake?

Yeah, I don't know. Charles was thrown at 4 times at Baltimore and caught all 4. He didn't' run as well as Savage did this past game. I think both are good players and should be utilized, but our offense is rarely on the field long enough to use more than the 2 RB's...

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 04:07 PM
.....

I find it amusing that you think any of those moves was not a good one.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-23-2009, 04:08 PM
I'd call Monty Beisel an abortion, but that would be an offense to abortions, as abortions generally infer some form of growth before elimination.

If Monty Beisel were a fetus, shortly after becoming a zygote he'd undergo apoptosis just for the fucking benefit of a few ATP molecules. That's how fucking worthless that cocksucker is.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 04:08 PM
Dude, be negative. Nothing wrong with it. I've been plenty critical of the team since returning.

I've just always been one to nitpick about fairness and objectivity when it comes to who gets the blame.

Yeah, me too.

And I was labeled a Herm lover for it.

Funny how little objectivity there was during the Herm era, yet those same people are giving the new regime a pass for making the same mistakes.

It's not Herm and Carl, therefore, I'm cool with it.

Had Herm coached that game on Sunday, heads would have rolled.

Had Carl traded a 2nd round pick for Cassel, and then proceeded to give him $60M before he took a snap, even though we owned his rights, heads would have rolled.

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 04:10 PM
Wow.

I thought I was critical of DJ.

I respect your opinion, I'm not gonna bash it. But your thoughts on Beisel are leaving me shaking my head.

It's really not my thoughts on Beisel so much as my thoughts on DJ.

I don't think you'll find anybody that likes him less as a player than I do.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 04:10 PM
I'd call Monty Beisel an abortion, but that would be an offense to abortions, as abortions generally infer some form of growth before elimination.

If Monty Beisel were a fetus, shortly after becoming a zygote he'd undergo apoptosis just for the fucking benefit of a few ATP molecules. That's how fucking worthless that cocksucker is.

"Please don't hurt 'em Hammer"!LMAO

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-23-2009, 04:10 PM
I find it amusing that you think any of those moves was not a good one.

Yeah, it would have really sucked cock to have drafted a guy like Lawrence Sidbury in Round 4 as a rush backer with a tangible set of skills, or a number of interior offensive lineman who could have improved this shit sandwich of a line that is protecting the 60 million dollar man, the same line which is so fucking terrible that it required us to spend a draft pick to get the services of two third stringers who would be cut when we had 3rd waiver priority.

Oh, and let's not forget the broke dick dog who played in about 5 practices before we pumped his veins full of potassium chloride. Yeah, that was a hell of a transaction, too.

Fuck.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 04:11 PM
It's really not my thoughts on Beisel so much as my thoughts on DJ.

I don't think you'll find anybody that likes him less as a player than I do.

No shit?

:D

htismaqe
09-23-2009, 04:12 PM
Yeah, me too.

And I was labeled a Herm lover for it.

Funny how little objectivity there was during the Herm era, yet those same people are giving the new regime a pass for making the same mistakes.

It's not Herm and Carl, therefore, I'm cool with it.

Had Herm coached that game on Sunday, heads would have rolled.

Had Carl traded a 2nd round pick for Cassel, and then proceeded to give him $60M before he took a snap, even though we owned his rights, heads would have rolled.

Had Carl traded for Cassel IN 1989 and then proceeded to give him $60M before he took a snap, I'm willing to bet not a single head would have rolled.

Let's not forget that we're jaded by TWO DECADES of Carl's presence and we're applying it to a couple of guys that don't deserve it.

At least not yet.

ChiefsCountry
09-23-2009, 04:17 PM
Good moves:

Cassel trade
Not looking really good :cuss:

Drafting D-line in round 1
While Tyson Jackson is a solid 3-4 end, they only did it bc of Cassel trade, so its not that good of move

Getting a CB with a lot of potential as a 'flyer' pick in round 4
While Washington is a talented player, round 4 isnt a flyer pick round

Getting a usable player out of "Mr. Irrelevant"
Sad when his best move has been drafting a kicker

Bringing in Zach Thomas
Since he played so much with us ROFL

Canning the previous scouting staff
They did a pretty good job the year before, its the morons with the final say that to go

Hiring Haley
Not too bad but there were better canadiates available

Ditching Gailey when it was determined that it wasn't going to work
That was Haley's call not Pioli

Bringing in low cost veterans to compete for spots and help change the culture
Not when you are trying to get younger, that was a Carl Peterson move.

Trading Gonzalez and getting a second round pick in what should be a deep draft
Its a catch 22, you are trying to win yet you trade your best player. But the draft next year is loaded but how they drafted this year and the Pats the previous few makes me worried

Grabbing Wade when he became available
Nice depth move, can't complain

Bringing in O'Callaghan for a look once he was waived
See above

Trading for a couple of veteran lineman when the current ones weren't getting it done
He had a chance in the draft to upgrade instead went with daddy in laws scrubs.

Signing Mike Brown
Sad when the second best move of the offseason was signing an old Mike Brown

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 04:23 PM
Yeah, it would have really sucked cock to have drafted a guy like Lawrence Sidbury in Round 4 as a rush backer with a tangible set of skills, or a number of interior offensive lineman who could have improved this shit sandwich of a line that is protecting the 60 million dollar man, the same line which is so ****ing terrible that it required us to spend a draft pick to get the services of two third stringers who would be cut when we had 3rd waiver priority.

Oh, and let's not forget the broke dick dog who played in about 5 practices before we pumped his veins full of potassium chloride. Yeah, that was a hell of a transaction, too.

****.

1.) You're comparing Washington to the 'alternative' in Sidbury. I'm not. Your preference for one over the other does not make the Chiefs decision somehow a bad pick. In a division with a QB like Rivers and a new system in Denver which will emphasize the passing game, having a lot of corners is going to be a requirement.

2.) The team saw a need on the line and made multiple moves to address that need, including trading for players, picking players up off of waivers and bringing in free agents for workouts. That's making good moves under the circumstances, regardless of whether or not they pan out to your satisfaction.

3.) Thomas had enough of an impact on the team during OTAs to make his signing a good one, even though he didn't end up making the team in the end. I don't even consider this really even controversial unless, of course, you think that the players who were quoted about his leadership and the like were just lying.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-23-2009, 04:28 PM
1.) You're comparing Washington to the 'alternative' in Sidbury. I'm not. Your preference for one over the other does not make the Chiefs decision somehow a bad pick. In a division with a QB like Rivers and a new system in Denver which will emphasize the passing game, having a lot of corners is going to be a requirement.

2.) The team saw a need on the line and made multiple moves to address that need, including trading for players, picking players up off of waivers and bringing in free agents for workouts.

3.) Thomas had enough of an impact on the team during OTAs to make his signing a good one, even though he didn't end up making the team in the end. I don't even consider this really even controversial unless, of course, you think that the players who were quoted about his leadership and the like were just lying.

1). If you pass on a player of greater impact and great upside for a project with character concerns in an area where you are already loaded, it's a bad fucking pick.

2). The team did nothing until it was so fucking late that they felt the need to further compound their mistake by trading future assets for scrubs they could have had for free less than a week later. FAIL

3). Thomas did nothing. He wasn't Jake Taylor on the '88 Indians, a broken down vet with something left to give on the field and in the clubhouse. He was that fucking mustachioed cocksucker Gentry. The dude who gets red tagged and sent out so damn quickly you only see him in about 30 frames of a 2 hour movie.

milkman
09-23-2009, 04:30 PM
1.) You're comparing Washington to the 'alternative' in Sidbury. I'm not. Your preference for one over the other does not make the Chiefs decision somehow a bad pick. In a division with a QB like Rivers and a new system in Denver which will emphasize the passing game, having a lot of corners is going to be a requirement.

2.) The team saw a need on the line and made multiple moves to address that need, including trading for players, picking players up off of waivers and bringing in free agents for workouts.

3.) Thomas had enough of an impact on the team during OTAs to make his signing a good one, even though he didn't end up making the team in the end. I don't even consider this really even controversial unless, of course, you think that the players who were quoted about his leadership and the like were just lying.

He traded for two players on the line that were going to be cut anyway.

That's throwing away a draft pick for scrubs that you could have picked up for free.

That can, in no way, be construed as a good move.

The only depiction that comes to mind is stupid.

And the scrubs he traded for are not any better than the scrubs he cut, and have already proven that they'll never be anything other than scrubs.

That adds to the stupidity of that move.

I can't think of one thing, one move, that Pioli has made that I thought at the time it was made, "That was a smart move", except fot the Gonzo trade.

I still don't think any of them were smart moves.

BigChiefFan
09-23-2009, 04:34 PM
He traded for two players on the line that were going to be cut anyway.

That's throwing away a draft pick for scrubs that you could have picked up for free.

That can, in no way, be construed as a good move.

The only depiction that comes to mind is stupid.

And the scrubs he traded for are not any better than the scrubs he cut, and have already proven that they'll never be anything other than scrubs.

That adds to the stupidity of that move.

I can't think of one thing, one move, that Pioli has made that I thought at the time it was made, "That was a smart move", except fot the Gonzo trade.

I still don't think any of them were smart moves.Ordinarily, I would agree, but he got a STARTER out of the deal for a late 2nd day pick.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 04:34 PM
He traded for two players on the line that were going to be cut anyway.

That's throwing away a draft pick for scrubs that you could have picked up for free.

That can, in no way, be construed as a good move.

The only depiction that comes to mind is stupid.

And the scrubs he traded for are not any better than the scrubs he cut, and have already proven that they'll never be anything other than scrubs.

That adds to the stupidity of that move.

I can't think of one thing, one move, that Pioli has made that I thought at the time it was made, "That was a smart move", except fot the Gonzo trade.

I still don't think any of them were smart moves.

You don't think bringing in Zach Thomas to train for the Tour de France was a good signing?

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 04:35 PM
Ordinarily, I would agree, but he got a STARTER out of the deal for a late 2nd day pick.

Is he any better than the last guy that was deemed a STARTER?

Starting out of necessity and starting because you are talented are two entirely different things.

Giving up a pick for a player you could have acquired for free, followed up by that player not being any better than the one he's replacing is a mistake no matter how you slice it.

milkman
09-23-2009, 04:38 PM
Ordinarily, I would agree, but he got a STARTER out of the deal for a late 2nd day pick.

Are you talking about Itchyass Ndukwe?

He's a scrub that's starting because we have a roster full of scrubs, and hed he been cut, we could have gotten with out giving up a late second day draft pick.

The scrub starting at FS is a late second day pick, and better at his job than the scrub starting at RT.

The late second day pick kicking is far better at his job.

milkman
09-23-2009, 04:39 PM
You don't think bringing in Zach Thomas to train for the Tour de France was a good signing?

Hey.....


We did hold the Raiders to 67 yards rushing on Sunday.

That must have been Zach Thomas' influence.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 04:39 PM
You don't think bringing in Zach Thomas to train for the Tour de France was a good signing?

ROFLROFLROFL Somebody PLEASE roflcopter this bad boy!

BigChiefFan
09-23-2009, 04:43 PM
Is he any better than the last guy that was deemed a STARTER?

Starting out of necessity and starting because you are talented are two entirely different things.The point still stands. WE RECEIVED A STARTER on our O-line for a late 2nd day pick. Which makes it a good move on our part. All teams are built differently. One team's trash, obviously equals treasure to our team at this point.

Plus, we are talking about a player that STARTED quite a few games last season, as well. He costs us way less than McInSOFT and seems to be handling the job just fine at this point, all things considered. The line needed improving and they attempted to do just that, until they have a better feel for who is the future and who isn't, they made a move for better or for worse. We lost peanuts for a shot at building some solid depth along our O-line.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 04:44 PM
He traded for two players on the line that were going to be cut anyway.

That's throwing away a draft pick for scrubs that you could have picked up for free.

That can, in no way, be construed as a good move.

The only depiction that comes to mind is stupid.

And the scrubs he traded for are not any better than the scrubs he cut, and have already proven that they'll never be anything other than scrubs.

That adds to the stupidity of that move.

They got their starting right tackle in that trade. If that brings stupid to mind to you, your welcome to that opinion. I find that laughable considering all the bleating that was going on about McIntosh.

I can't think of one thing, one move, that Pioli has made that I thought at the time it was made, "That was a smart move", except fot the Gonzo trade.

I still don't think any of them were smart moves.

You're welcome to your opinion.

DaneMcCloud
09-23-2009, 04:48 PM
Plus, we are talking about a player that STARTED quite a few games last season, as well.

Yeah.

At GUARD.

BigChiefFan
09-23-2009, 04:51 PM
Yeah.

At GUARD.
How awful it is to have a player than can play several positions along the O-line, especially for a late 2nd day pick. AGAIN, he STARTS.

OnTheWarpath58
09-23-2009, 04:52 PM
How awful it is to have a player than can player several positions along the O-line, in a pinch.

Like the players made expendable when he was brought in?

For a draft pick.

When he could have been had for free.

And he's not an upgrade to the players we cut.

Yep, that's a winning move.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 04:53 PM
1). If you pass on a player of greater impact and great upside for a project with character concerns in an area where you are already loaded, it's a bad ****ing pick.

You're interjecting your opinion about the individual player. I don't particularly find your draft analysis to be something I should rely on.

2). The team did nothing until it was so ****ing late that they felt the need to further compound their mistake by trading future assets for scrubs they could have had for free less than a week later. FAIL

53 spots to deal with. Limited player availability. That's what happens in the NFL.

3). Thomas did nothing. He wasn't Jake Taylor on the '88 Indians, a broken down vet with something left to give on the field and in the clubhouse. He was that ****ing mustachioed one who sucks the penis Gentry. The dude who gets red tagged and sent out so damn quickly you only see him in about 30 frames of a 2 hour movie.

Thomas helped set the tone for the team in the OTAs, and that helped Haley and Pioli as they were trying to change the culture of the team. That's part of what you sign veterans for. Would it have worked out better if Thomas had been able to make the team and play? Obviously.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 04:56 PM
Like the players made expendable when he was brought in?

For a draft pick.

When he could have been had for free.

And he's not an upgrade to the players we cut.

Yep, that's a winning move.

How do you know that he would have been available and would have chosen to go to the Chiefs? As for the upgrade argument, clearly the Chiefs don't agree with your analysis.

BigChiefFan
09-23-2009, 04:58 PM
Like the players made expendable when he was brought in?

For a draft pick.

When he could have been had for free.

And he's not an upgrade to the players we cut.

Yep, that's a winning move.
I would say he hustles more than McIntosh, does his job just as well (if not better), can play different positions along the O-Line, costs LESS, has upside, works in the system better, and didn't cost squat for compensation to the 'fins, yea, that's a resounding, yes.

milkman
09-23-2009, 04:59 PM
They got their starting right tackle in that trade. If that brings stupid to mind to you, your welcome to that opinion. I find that laughable considering all the bleating that was going on about McIntosh.

He's starting!
Yay!

McIntosh started last year.
He sucked.
Ndukwe sucks.

So we traded a draft pick for a player that sucks that won't be a starter, and will end up being cut, when we get guys in that, you know, don't suck.



You're welcome to your opinion.

Well geez, thanks for that.
Coming from a mighty Patriot fan, I'm honored.

Brock
09-23-2009, 05:03 PM
My initial impression is that Ndugwe or whatever is an upgrade over MacIntosh. How much so remains to be seen.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 05:06 PM
Well geez, thanks for that.
Coming from a mighty Patriot fan, I'm honored.

LMAO

I'll continue to pound the rock; what IS this guy's vested interest?

I mean, the Lions fans asked me about Gunther and I gave them the lowdown then apologized for their loss.LMAO And that was it!

"How do you guys feel about Stafford"?
response
response
response etc.
"Okay that's cool, I'll stay in touch". THE END.

Seriously; WTF?! :shrug:

DaneMcCloud
09-23-2009, 05:09 PM
How awful it is to have a player than can play several positions along the O-line, especially for a late 2nd day pick. AGAIN, he STARTS.

For a guy that was going to be released at the first cut-downs, not second.

I guarantee the guy wouldn't be a starter at right tackle for anyone else in the league. IMO, he should move back to guard because Goff is worthless.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 05:14 PM
LMAO

I'll continue to pound the rock; what IS this guy's vested interest?

I mean, the Lions fans asked me about Gunther and I gave them the lowdown then apologized for their loss.LMAO And that was it!

"How do you guys feel about Stafford"?
response
response
response etc.
"Okay that's cool, I'll stay in touch". THE END.

Seriously; WTF?! :shrug:

I'm sorry. Maybe I'll just post idiotic pictures and gifs, use an average of 40 emoticons per post, and spend my time blowing a small group on the site every day rather than actually talking football.


Oh, wait, I can't do that. You've already got that job.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 05:17 PM
I'm sorry. Maybe I'll just post idiotic pictures and gifs, use an average of 40 emoticons per post, and spend my time blowing a small group on the site every day rather than actually talking football.


Oh, wait, I can't do that. You've already got that job.

Well, as long as you're here making sure we understand the genius of your former GM on a daily basis, that's all that really matters.:rolleyes:

tonyetony
09-23-2009, 05:17 PM
Ndukwe exceeded my expectations by far in the raiders game against Seymore. For a guy switching teams and positions I'm starting to think he has room to grow into the position. Sackintosh was completely out of of potential a long time ago.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Well, as long as you're here making sure we understand the genius of your former GM on a daily basis, that's all that really matters.:rolleyes:

How cute. You cut down to just one emoticon. Congratulations!

ChiefsCountry
09-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Can Pioli also make a trade that doesnt involve his daddy in law, his former boss, or the guy who was the real brains in the Patriots office?

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 05:23 PM
Can Pioli also make a trade that doesnt involve his daddy in law, his former boss, or the guy who was the real brains in the Patriots office?

He traded with Atlanta. Of course, you could put that under "former underling". The NFL is full of those sort of relationships and coaching 'trees' right now.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 05:24 PM
How cute. You cut down to just one emoticon. Congratulations!

Thank you! Quick questions:

Does Pioli prefer boxers or briefs?

What are his turn-on's?

What are his turn-off's?

We're DYING to know!

Count Zarth
09-23-2009, 05:24 PM
This basically says "bring back Herm".

No shit! People are unbelievable.

Let's run the ball more and dumb down the offense!

HERM! :shake:

milkman
09-23-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm sorry. Maybe I'll just post idiotic pictures and gifs, use an average of 40 emoticons per post, and spend my time blowing a small group on the site every day rather than actually talking football.


Oh, wait, I can't do that. You've already got that job.

You've already got a job, and you do it extremely well.

Blowing Scott Pioli while blowing smoke up our asses at the same time is a unique gift.

Brock
09-23-2009, 05:25 PM
He traded with Atlanta. Of course, you could put that under "former underling". The NFL is full of those sort of relationships and coaching 'trees' right now.

That' who he's referring to as "the real brains in NE".

tonyetony
09-23-2009, 05:30 PM
Can Pioli also make a trade that doesnt involve his daddy in law, his former boss, or the guy who was the real brains in the Patriots office?

It seems all 1st time GM's tend to stay with what they know at first. I think the Wade signing was a good sign that he's starting to grow legs.

milkman
09-23-2009, 05:31 PM
It seems all 1st time GM"s tend to stay with what they know at first. I think the Wade signing was a good sign that he's starting to grow legs.

Not really.

Haley was his receiver coach in his rookie year.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 05:33 PM
Thank you! Quick questions:

Does Pioli prefer boxers or briefs?

What are his turn-on's?

What are his turn-off's?

We're DYING to know!

I wouldn't know. There was someone on this board who installed his cable, though. Perhaps you could ask him those questions in the brief moments when you don't have Mecca, Hamas or OTW lodged in your throat.

Mecca
09-23-2009, 05:33 PM
Just Passin By should go back to his little Patriot forum and discuss how his team got their shit kicked in by a coach who said he would kick their shit in and a QB he has given people shit about for months...

That would probably be more productive than sitting here going "I am almighty Pats fan I know more than you, you are a bad fan for questioning the master Pioli"

JASONSAUTO
09-23-2009, 05:36 PM
Just Passin By should go back to his little Patriot forum and discuss how his team got their shit kicked in by a coach who said he would kick their shit in and a QB he has given people shit about for months...

That would probably be more productive than sitting here going "I am almighty Pats fan I know more than you, you are a bad fan for questioning the master Pioli"

you call the pats losing by 7 "getting their shit kicked in"? ROFL damn:shake:

Mecca
09-23-2009, 05:36 PM
you call the pats losing by 7 "getting their shit kicked in"? ROFL damn:shake:

Considering what people thought that game would be because 'Oh the Jets are running their mouths" and what they did to Brady, they kicked their shit in.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 05:37 PM
I wouldn't know. There was someone on this board who installed his cable, though. Perhaps you could ask him those questions in the brief moments when you don't have Mecca, Hamas or OTW lodged in your throat.

Ah, the old "he doesn't have his own opinion" argument. It's amazing to me how you can know quite a bit about football, come off as fairly intelligent, yet be a complete fucking retard at the same time.

Oh well, stranger things have happened in life I suppose.

milkman
09-23-2009, 05:38 PM
you call the pats losing by 7 "getting their shit kicked in"? ROFL damn:shake:

I didn't watch the game, but all indications are the the Jets dominated the Pats physically.

Sometimes getting your ass kicked isn't simply how many point were put on the board.

Mecca
09-23-2009, 05:40 PM
I wonder if Just Passin By posts on ND boards and when fans say Charlie Weis sucks he calls them stupid.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 05:40 PM
Ah, the old "he doesn't have his own opinion" argument. It's amazing to me how you can know quite a bit about football, come off as fairly intelligent, yet be a complete ****ing retard at the same time.

Oh well, stranger things have happened in life I suppose.

I'll give you a hint on how to resolve this:

Once you realize that people can have a different take on things than Mecca, Hamas, OTW or even Milkman and yourself, you'll be able to see that it might not be retardation in play after all. It might just be that people think you are wrong.

Mecca
09-23-2009, 05:42 PM
I'll give you a hint on how to resolve this:

Once you realize that people can have a different take on things than Mecca, Hamas, OTW or even Milkman and yourself, you'll be able to see that it might not be retardation in play after all. It might just be that people think you are wrong.

ROFL

Maybe you should realize people can be Chiefs fans and have different takes on Scott Pioli. Because frankly you being Pats fan you insult people the minute they say they don't like what Pioli has done.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 05:42 PM
I'll give you a hint on how to resolve this:

Once you realize that people can have a different take on things than Mecca, Hamas, OTW or even Milkman and yourself, you'll be able to see that it might not be retardation in play after all. It might just be that people think you are wrong.

Ah, the old "he doesn't have his own opinion" argument. It's amazing to me how you can know quite a bit about football, come off as fairly intelligent, yet be a complete fucking retard at the same time.

Oh well, stranger things have happened in life I suppose.

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 05:45 PM
I didn't watch the game, but all indications are the the Jets dominated the Pats physically.

Sometimes getting your ass kicked isn't simply how many point were put on the board.

Utter and complete domination. Randy Moss vs Darrell Revis: 24 yards.

Winner: Revis.

milkman
09-23-2009, 05:49 PM
Utter and complete domination. Randy Moss vs Darrell Revis: 24 yards.

Winner: Revis.

Revis is a baller.

He shut down Andre Johnson in the first game against the Texans.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 05:51 PM
ROFL

Maybe you should realize people can be Chiefs fans and have different takes on Scott Pioli. Because frankly you being Pats fan you insult people the minute they say they don't like what Pioli has done.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice.

1.) Advice on how to post from you, while extremely funny, is not the solution.

2.) I don't give a rat's ass if you don't like what Pioli has done. If you have a problem with a move, you should say so, by all means. That's what message boards are for. However, when you're bitching about the draft months after it's finished when it's the first draft of the new regime, and the players haven't even had time to develop, that's just stupid. Also...

3.) When you're going to bitch about "catches", or anything else, you should at least know what the hell you're talking about. Bitching about catches, getting that disproved, and then claiming that you were actually talking about about "targets" and calling the other person names instead of just admitting your mistake, is just being an asshole. Also....

4.) When you talk about how bad the team is going to suck, and you talk about how little talent is on the team, and you talk about how bad the previous regime was and how it ruined the team, turning around and bitching about the team two games into the very next season is so idiotic that it defies classification. For crying out loud, people already knew the team was going to be bad. There's no need to manufacture a "Haley's avoiding Bowe" scenario as if this is all an episode of Saved By The Bell.

Just Passin' By
09-23-2009, 05:52 PM
Utter and complete domination. Randy Moss vs Darrell Revis: 24 yards.

Winner: Revis.

Revis had a lot of safety help, but he did play an excellent game. He really played the interception just about as well as it could be played.

Mecca
09-23-2009, 05:53 PM
I bitch about catches? What in the blue fuck are you talking about?

And obviously you care about Pioli, you are a Pats fan and that's why you are here. People saying bad shit about Pioli pisses you off because I think you somehow feel it's a reflection on your franchise.

I seriously want to know if you go post on all the forums where Pats guys got hired and tell them everything is going to be ok as they fail.

In short go worry about your own team.

DeezNutz
09-23-2009, 05:55 PM
JPB, out of curiosity, what is your interest in posting on a Chiefs board?

Not that it matters...but are you a fan, at all, of the team? Just interested in continuing to follow Pioli? Came around here to see the initial reaction to Pioli, found that we're interesting and entertaining as fuck, and decided to stay?

JASONSAUTO
09-23-2009, 05:58 PM
Go Chiefs - You're right about Haley. He should receive every benefit of every doubt. But, you were clearly in the Herm fucking Edwards camp too so parden the doubters who think you're full of it...

And don't forget that Haley brought much of this on himself with his "22 guys off the street" coment. The problem might be that he needs to do that to win.

has ANYONE actually heard him say that? it keeps getting play everywhere. can someone please post a link?

DaneMcCloud
09-23-2009, 05:59 PM
has ANYONE actually heard him say that? it keeps getting play everywhere. can someone please post a link?

Whitlock reported it.

Do you think he's lying?

Raised On Riots
09-23-2009, 05:59 PM
Revis is a baller.

He shut down Andre Johnson in the first game against the Texans.

There's a lot of season to come, but I would not be surprised in the least to see that team Wild Card.

Ryan has that defense spitting nails, Sanchez has brought a lot of confidence to the offensive side, and it's showing up on the field for the full four quarters.

Reminds me a lot of of the 97 Chiefs minus DT, but plus a legitimate QB and a Coach not afraid to take the risks when necessary, and go down in flames if it happens that way.

JASONSAUTO
09-23-2009, 06:00 PM
Considering what people thought that game would be because 'Oh the Jets are running their mouths" and what they did to Brady, they kicked their shit in.

whatever.:rolleyes: a 7 point loss is NEVER getting your shit kicked in. the jets said they would EMBARASS the pats. sorry man that didnt happen.

DeezNutz
09-23-2009, 06:01 PM
Whitlock reported it.

Do you think he's lying?

Whitlock is fat. Did you realize this?

JASONSAUTO
09-23-2009, 06:01 PM
Whitlock reported it.

Do you think he's lying?

was whitlock actually there?

DeezNutz
09-23-2009, 06:02 PM
whatever.:rolleyes: a 7 point loss is NEVER getting your shit kicked in. the jets said they would EMBARASS the pats. sorry man that didnt happen.

Never? Hardly.

milkman
09-23-2009, 06:02 PM
was whitlock actually there?

So the question becomes. do you think Waters was lying?

DaneMcCloud
09-23-2009, 06:03 PM
was whitlock actually there?

So that's the standard of proof now?

Someone, please alert the networks and news agencies.