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HonestChieffan
09-27-2009, 11:34 AM
Once upon a time the government had a vast scrap yard in the middle of a desert. Congress said, "someone may steal from it at night.." So they created a night watchman position and hired a person for the job at $18,000 per year..

Then Congress said, "How does the watchman do his job without instruction?" So they created a planning department and hired two people, one person to write the instructions, and one person to do time studies.

Then Congress said, "How will we know the night watchman is doing the tasks correctly?" So they created a Quality Control department and hired two people. One to do the studies and one to write the reports.

Then Congress said, "How are these people going to get paid?" So they created the following positions, a time keeper, a lawyer,and a payroll officer, then hired three people.

Then Congress said, "Who will be accountable for all of these people?" So they created an administrative section and hired three people, an Administrative Officer, Assistant Administrative Officer, and a Legal Secretary.

Then Congress said, "We have had this command in operation for one Year and we are $18,000 over budget, we must cutback overall cost."

So they laid off the night watchman.

MichaelH
09-27-2009, 11:44 AM
That is pretty much how it works. Government and logic should never be used together.

Chiefshrink
09-27-2009, 11:57 AM
Once upon a time the government had a vast scrap yard in the middle of a desert. Congress said, "someone may steal from it at night.." So they created a night watchman position and hired a person for the job at $18,000 per year..

Then Congress said, "How does the watchman do his job without instruction?" So they created a planning department and hired two people, one person to write the instructions, and one person to do time studies.

Then Congress said, "How will we know the night watchman is doing the tasks correctly?" So they created a Quality Control department and hired two people. One to do the studies and one to write the reports.

Then Congress said, "How are these people going to get paid?" So they created the following positions, a time keeper, a lawyer,and a payroll officer, then hired three people.

Then Congress said, "Who will be accountable for all of these people?" So they created an administrative section and hired three people, an Administrative Officer, Assistant Administrative Officer, and a Legal Secretary.

Then Congress said, "We have had this command in operation for one Year and we are $18,000 over budget, we must cutback overall cost."

So they laid off the night watchman.

Is an oxymoron:rolleyes:

banyon
09-27-2009, 12:01 PM
Meanwhile Watchco,Inc outsourced the job to a 6 year old in malaysia who works 20 hour days for 30 cents a day.

HonestChieffan
09-27-2009, 12:39 PM
lots of 6 yr olds can do jobs.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 04:50 PM
Meanwhile Watchco,Inc outsourced the job to a 6 year old in malaysia who works 20 hour days for 30 cents a day.

...which allows his family to actually eat instead of leaving one of the kids for dead or selling his sister as a sex slave.

Keep projecting your American values over the entire world, though.

banyon
09-27-2009, 05:37 PM
...which allows his family to actually eat instead of leaving one of the kids for dead or selling his sister as a sex slave.

Keep projecting your American values over the entire world, though.

Damn right I'll project my American values. There's a reason we are the greatest country in the history of the world and I won't substitute 3rd world values for our own.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 06:54 PM
Damn right I'll project my American values. There's a reason we are the greatest country in the history of the world and I won't substitute 3rd world values for our own.

I'm all for you keeping yours. But operating under the belief that the entire world should is insane.

banyon
09-27-2009, 07:11 PM
I'm all for you keeping yours. But operating under the belief that the entire world should is insane.

So is allowing Multinational corporations to continually underbid the entire world to the lowest, most desperate common denominator.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 07:15 PM
And providing jobs and economic growth to the areas that need it most. Oh the horror!

banyon
09-27-2009, 07:45 PM
And providing jobs and economic growth to the areas that need it most. Oh the horror!

The horror indeed. Often times it is by clearcutting and demolishing the sustainable agriculture and forests in the area so that people's ability to feed and sustain themselves becomes dependent on the Nike plant or whatever.

The great "economic growth" is usually pennies on the day for people who used to earn no wages, but could feed and clothe themselves. Are they better off? Pretty rarely.

Meanwhile, what effect do you think all of this has on wages here at home since now you're asking workers to compete with people trying to earn pennies to feed and clothe themselves?

banyon
09-27-2009, 07:57 PM
We are doing you indentured servants SUCH a favor!

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Saul Good
09-27-2009, 08:23 PM
Damn right I'll project my American values. There's a reason we are the greatest country in the history of the world and I won't substitute 3rd world values for our own.

So are those people better off with low-paying jobs or with no jobs?

Direckshun
09-27-2009, 09:12 PM
I'm all for you keeping yours. But operating under the belief that the entire world should is insane.

Yeah, I'm willing to project the value that we shouldn't put 6 year olds to work for 20 cents a day.

But maybe I'm just craaaaazy, Simplex.

banyon
09-27-2009, 09:48 PM
So are those people better off with low-paying jobs or with no jobs?

Many of them with no "official" jobs because they could feed and shelter themselves reasonably with subsistence agriculture.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:26 PM
Yeah, I'm willing to project the value that we shouldn't put 6 year olds to work for 20 cents a day.

But maybe I'm just craaaaazy, Simplex.

20 cents a day will buy the food needed to feed their family. Without the job they don't get the 20 cents and they don't eat.

Those of us in the West are just so damned sure that we know what's best for everyone. If that family didn't need the 20 cents a day do you think they'd send their kid to work?

Besides, you can put a stop to it. Just quit buying the crap that's made there.

Direckshun
09-27-2009, 10:34 PM
20 cents a day will buy the food needed to feed their family. Without the job they don't get the 20 cents and they don't eat.

Those of us in the West are just so damned sure that we know what's best for everyone. If that family didn't need the 20 cents a day do you think they'd send their kid to work?

Besides, you can put a stop to it. Just quit buying the crap that's made there.

You conservatives on this board have absolutely no trouble making countless assertions about my lifestyle choices. It's astounding.

I don't know what hypothetical existence we're talking about where 20 cents a day is enough to feed a family -- so how about I propose something more in line with humanitarianism. How about we pay them a translated minimum wage, so that the company can still make a killing and all of a sudden, families in this remote jungle clusterfuck can actually feed their families.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:34 PM
We are doing you indentured servants SUCH a favor!

Sounds like it worked out just fine in the end.

banyon
09-27-2009, 10:35 PM
20 cents a day will buy the food needed to feed their family. Without the job they don't get the 20 cents and they don't eat.

Those of us in the West are just so damned sure that we know what's best for everyone. If that family didn't need the 20 cents a day do you think they'd send their kid to work?

Besides, you can put a stop to it. Just quit buying the crap that's made there.

Listen to what you're saying. Jesus.

banyon
09-27-2009, 10:35 PM
Sounds like it worked out just fine in the end.

Yeah, for that one plant that got investigated.

Good thing it was the only one huh? Everyone lived happily ever after!

Blinders, anyone?

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:38 PM
You conservatives on this board have absolutely no trouble making countless assertions about my lifestyle choices. It's astounding.

I don't know what hypothetical existence we're talking about where 20 cents a day is enough to feed a family -- so how about I propose something more in line with humanitarianism. How about we pay them a translated minimum wage, so that the company can still make a killing and all of a sudden, families in this remote jungle cluster**** can actually feed their families.

Yeah, looks like the kid would only make enough to feed themselves and pay the overhead of a global humanitarian group on 25 cents a day.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-patricia-fitzgerald/drew-barrymore-nutrition_b_194885.html

Direckshun
09-27-2009, 10:39 PM
Well I never thought I'd see the day where somebody here on this board would argue FOR gigantic American companies building factories in 3rd world countries and paying their underage workers there a quarter a day, but I can't say I'm surprised.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:40 PM
Listen to what you're saying. Jesus.

Fine, pay the guy American union wages. See how long he has a job.

The only reason it pays to ship the materials there, then manufacture it, then ship the final product back West is because the labor is cheap. You remove that and you remove the jobs. They'll be back to sustenance farming. Which, frankly, might be better. I don't pretend to know what's best for them because I don't live there and didn't grow up in their culture.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:41 PM
Yeah, for that one plant that got investigated.

Good thing it was the only one huh? Everyone lived happily ever after!

Blinders, anyone?

According to the story Nike also investigated and corrected every other sub-contractor they use in Malaysia. Did you watch the whole thing or just the mean and evil part?

banyon
09-27-2009, 10:43 PM
Fine, pay the guy American union wages. See how long he has a job.

The only reason it pays to ship the materials there, then manufacture it, then ship the final product back West is because the labor is cheap. You remove that and you remove the jobs. They'll be back to sustenance farming. Which, frankly, might be better. I don't pretend to know what's best for them because I don't live there and didn't grow up in their culture.

It's certainly not better for us, which is the main thing I care about. This country.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:44 PM
Well I never thought I'd see the day where somebody here on this board would argue FOR gigantic American companies building factories in 3rd world countries and paying their underage workers there a quarter a day, but I can't say I'm surprised.

If I gave you two options: A quarter or nothing; which would you take? Barring some sort of slavery, which I believe is illegal worldwide now, these people have the choice to take the job or not. If they are being enslaved then there's a legal issue to be sorted out.

Do I think it sounds like a great way to live? No. But I'm not there and I don't know what those people do or don't need. Unlike you I don't pretend I know what's best for them.

banyon
09-27-2009, 10:44 PM
According to the story Nike also investigated and corrected every other sub-contractor they use in Malaysia. Did you watch the whole thing or just the mean and evil part?

They're the only company in the only country out there trying this stuff? And you think they didn't go right back to doing what they were doing there somewhere else? :LMAO:

With your strenuous yet unplausible defense of these tactics, it makes me wonder if you're personally involved in this type of outsourcing.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:49 PM
It's certainly not better for us, which is the main thing I care about. This country.

Tell that to the hordes that flock to Wal-Mart on a daily basis to get the cheapest crap they can lay their hands on. As a society we'd sell our own mother to save $0.02 on a shirt. Companies like Nike who aren't competing on price have stockholders to please.

I've personally worn New Balance for probably 15 years, partly because they're made in the US and partly because they freaking hold up fantastically. They cost me 1.5x more than a Nike or a Reebok but they last 2x longer or more. I would assume you do something similar.

However, if I needed new shoes and I was broke, I'd buy the cheapest Chinese crap I could so that my kids would be as financially secure as possible. I try not to fault people for making those decisions because I don't know what's going on in their lives.

banyon
09-27-2009, 10:51 PM
Tell that to the hordes that flock to Wal-Mart on a daily basis to get the cheapest crap they can lay their hands on. As a society we'd sell our own mother to save $0.02 on a shirt. Companies like Nike who aren't competing on price have stockholders to please.

I've personally worn New Balance for probably 15 years, partly because they're made in the US and partly because they freaking hold up fantastically. They cost me 1.5x more than a Nike or a Reebok but they last 2x longer or more. I would assume you do something similar.

However, if I needed new shoes and I was broke, I'd buy the cheapest Chinese crap I could so that my kids would be as financially secure as possible. I try not to fault people for making those decisions because I don't know what's going on in their lives.

That's my point, that short-sighted consume at all costs mentality has gotten us where we are.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:53 PM
They're the only company in the only country out there trying this stuff? And you think they didn't go right back to doing what they were doing there somewhere else? :LMAO:

With your strenuous yet unplausible defense of these tactics, it makes me wonder if you're personally involved in this type of outsourcing.

I've outsourced once. Once to an artist in Vietnam, who I paid $25 per design. Going rate in the US would have been around $250 to $500 per at the time. I even mentioned to the guy that he was awfully cheap and he told me it was fine, he could live very well on what I was paying him.

I've worked with companies who were outsourcing technical labor, generally to India or Russia, and have had very little success. Manufacturing would be a whole different story I would imagine.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 10:54 PM
That's my point, that short-sighted consume at all costs mentality has gotten us where we are.

We have a society that's based on consumption and credit. Did you expect different?

banyon
09-27-2009, 10:58 PM
We have a society that's based on consumption and credit. Did you expect different?

Eventually yes, it cannot continue indefinitely.

But as we've shifted from a nation that produces things to one that services, we will (or are presently) hit a point where we can no longer sell services to other servicers while producing nothing of value. It is a means of draining wealth, not sound economic policy.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-27-2009, 11:00 PM
Eventually yes, it cannot continue indefinitely.

But as we've shifted from a nation that produces things to one that services, we will (or are presently) hit a point where we can no longer sell services to other servicers while producing nothing of value. It is a means of draining wealth, not sound economic policy.

Well Banyon Your guy is in office to "fix" all of that, maybe after someone I vote for is elected we can see who really does the fixing.

banyon
09-27-2009, 11:02 PM
Well Banyon Your guy is in office to "fix" all of that, maybe after someone I vote for is elected we can see who really does the fixing.

How can he change it? The moment he tries to remedy some of the credit and production issues, he will be yelled at and branded "Marxist" and "5-year plan" and "Stalin" I can hear it already.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 11:03 PM
Eventually yes, it cannot continue indefinitely.

But as we've shifted from a nation that produces things to one that services, we will (or are presently) hit a point where we can no longer sell services to other servicers while producing nothing of value. It is a means of draining wealth, not sound economic policy.

I agree completely, but nobody wants to wear the blue collar when other people are getting to wear the white one. We try to give every kid a liberal arts education and send them to college to put them in debt, then send them out into the workforce where they can no longer afford to get a factory job and ever get out from under the loans. As a society we don't value physical labor.

As for being able or unable to do it indefinitely, I don't know. I would assume not, but the truth is that as long as people believe a fiat currency and the economy are working it will. It isn't like other countries around the world are fiscally sound and we're the ones tanking, everyone is spending like a drunken sailor in a titty bar.

Simplex3
09-27-2009, 11:04 PM
How can he change it? The moment he tries to remedy some of the credit and production issues, he will be yelled at and branded "Marxist" and "5-year plan" and "Stalin" I can hear it already.

If his 'remedy' is government control, which to this point it has been, then the shoe kind of fits doesn't it? Nazi comments aside, of course.

banyon
09-27-2009, 11:12 PM
If his 'remedy' is government control, which to this point it has been, then the shoe kind of fits doesn't it? Nazi comments aside, of course.

How are we going to regain our production strength by doing nothing? That's the other side's answer is it not?

Yet, the freer we make markets and trade and deregulate, the worse this problem has gotten.

Simplex3
09-28-2009, 06:33 AM
So do you think closing the borders to foreign goods is the answer? High import tariffs?

The average American is hooked on cheap crap like it's meth. Deep down they might know that $3 t-shirt is bad for them, but they don't really care so long as it enables them to buy a new giant LCD TV and a BlueRay player.

IMO the only solution is through education, but reversing the dumbing down of America is a long, hard process that is not in the best interest of the people running the educational system today.

bevischief
09-28-2009, 06:35 AM
:D:DOnce upon a time the government had a vast scrap yard in the middle of a desert. Congress said, "someone may steal from it at night.." So they created a night watchman position and hired a person for the job at $18,000 per year..

Then Congress said, "How does the watchman do his job without instruction?" So they created a planning department and hired two people, one person to write the instructions, and one person to do time studies.

Then Congress said, "How will we know the night watchman is doing the tasks correctly?" So they created a Quality Control department and hired two people. One to do the studies and one to write the reports.

Then Congress said, "How are these people going to get paid?" So they created the following positions, a time keeper, a lawyer,and a payroll officer, then hired three people.

Then Congress said, "Who will be accountable for all of these people?" So they created an administrative section and hired three people, an Administrative Officer, Assistant Administrative Officer, and a Legal Secretary.

Then Congress said, "We have had this command in operation for one Year and we are $18,000 over budget, we must cutback overall cost."

So they laid off the night watchman.
:D

banyon
09-28-2009, 01:08 PM
So do you think closing the borders to foreign goods is the answer? High import tariffs?

The average American is hooked on cheap crap like it's meth. Deep down they might know that $3 t-shirt is bad for them, but they don't really care so long as it enables them to buy a new giant LCD TV and a BlueRay player.

IMO the only solution is through education, but reversing the dumbing down of America is a long, hard process that is not in the best interest of the people running the educational system today.

Ah, I see, you're calling for social engineering and communism in our schools then.

RJ
09-28-2009, 01:22 PM
I hate Big Security.

Simplex3
09-28-2009, 02:02 PM
Ah, I see, you're calling for social engineering and communism in our schools then.

Nope. I'll educate my kids, you educate yours.

banyon
09-28-2009, 07:20 PM
Nope. I'll educate my kids, you educate yours.

So, yeah, there's a ton of parents out there right now doing a tremendous job.

Your plan, then is to do nothing and hope they lead us to prosperity?

JohnnyV13
09-28-2009, 08:00 PM
They're the only company in the only country out there trying this stuff? And you think they didn't go right back to doing what they were doing there somewhere else? :LMAO:

With your strenuous yet unplausible defense of these tactics, it makes me wonder if you're personally involved in this type of outsourcing.

Banyon,

I'm invovled with a company that does outsourcing. But, let me ask you this, is outsourcing wrong if the employees are actually very well educated people mostly in their 20's, who earn enough that they live in nice apartments and have maids? (btw, I don't have maids).

Is it wrong if you can hire 7 better educated employees, who are more likely to keep the job, than 1 employee in America for the same price?

Is it wrong if they don't work in a sweat shop, or you aren't clear cutting any jungle to employ them?

Is it wrong if the wage differential is based mostly on differences in exchange rate?

banyon
09-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Banyon,

I'm invovled with a company that does outsourcing. But, let me ask you this, is outsourcing wrong if the employees are actually very well educated people mostly in their 20's, who earn enough that they live in nice apartments and have maids? (btw, I don't have maids).

Is it wrong if you can hire 7 better educated employees, who are more likely to keep the job, than 1 employee in America for the same price?

Is it wrong if they don't work in a sweat shop, or you aren't clear cutting any jungle to employ them?

Is it wrong if the wage differential is based mostly on differences in exchange rate?

That stuff all sounds harmless enough, but it's my impression that it's the exception rather than the general rule.

Simplex3
09-28-2009, 10:13 PM
So, yeah, there's a ton of parents out there right now doing a tremendous job.

Your plan, then is to do nothing and hope they lead us to prosperity?

Nah, I figure it's too late for most of them. Let Darwin sort 'em out.