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Chris Meck
10-25-2009, 05:45 PM
Seriously. We cannot run block. We cannot pass block. We cannot hang on to the ball, so our defense tires and gives up big plays.

No skill position player is going to amount to squat when the line is that bad.

People want to take a safety in the top 3? Really? What good is that going to do? We'll lose by 20 instead of 30, I guess.

This line needs a complete and total overhaul. That's as bad of a line as I've ever seen. A complete abortion.

Waters is just as bad as all the rest at this point in his career, too. the ONLY (kind of maybe) bright spots today were Barry Richardson's mediocre to fair job at LT and Smith at C did fair. The rest have no place on an NFL field.

milkman
10-25-2009, 05:46 PM
So the defense was tired by the middle of the first quarter?

Bwana
10-25-2009, 05:49 PM
I would say it's a large part of their Issues, but not "ALL."

Rain Man
10-25-2009, 05:49 PM
Yeah, it's hard to judge our RBs and WRs and QB when most of the game is played three yards in our backfield.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 05:49 PM
Blame the almighty GM for not using any mid round picks on OL when it was a very deep OL draft class.

Bane
10-25-2009, 05:50 PM
Thats what happens when you rebuild.

allen_kcCard
10-25-2009, 05:52 PM
Seriously. We cannot run block. We cannot pass block. We cannot hang on to the ball, so our defense tires and gives up big plays.

No skill position player is going to amount to squat when the line is that bad.

People want to take a safety in the top 3? Really? What good is that going to do? We'll lose by 20 instead of 30, I guess.

This line needs a complete and total overhaul. That's as bad of a line as I've ever seen. A complete abortion.

Waters is just as bad as all the rest at this point in his career, too. the ONLY (kind of maybe) bright spots today were Barry Richardson's mediocre to fair job at LT and Smith at C did fair. The rest have no place on an NFL field.

Will agree that the o-line is a big huge key to turning this around, but that is going to be fixed in free agency and picks outside of the first round. A right tackle, center, and a couple guards would go a long long way to getting things going. I like the idea of Berry or Mays at S,and along with either of these the line can still be shored up in a lot of ways.

KCTitus
10-25-2009, 05:53 PM
Yup...OL has got to be job #1 this offseason.

Pink Paradise 2010
10-25-2009, 05:54 PM
we have many issues, but thats what is expected when there is a whole new coaching staff.... and players......

Mecca
10-25-2009, 05:54 PM
I wonder how many are going to go campaign to use our top 5 pick on a OT...so then my head can explode.

TEX
10-25-2009, 05:54 PM
Yup...OL has got to be job #1 this offseason.

Yep. But it was obvious that it should have been LAST offseason. :shake:

Mecca
10-25-2009, 05:55 PM
Here's the real question...

Is the new regime either so poor at talent evaluation they thought these guys were fine or are they so arrogant they literally thought "hey we can coach up any scrubs in our scheme they'll work out"

Whichever one it is it's a horrible sign.

TEX
10-25-2009, 05:56 PM
I wonder how many are going to go campaign to use our top 5 pick on a OT...so then my head can explode.

Gosh - I can hear it now. I would hope that a good GM could figure out how to vastly improve the OL without doing so. But I said "good" so....

Rain Man
10-25-2009, 05:56 PM
I wonder how many are going to go campaign to use our top 5 pick on a OT...so then my head can explode.


That would just be silly. We need a center much more.

TEX
10-25-2009, 05:57 PM
Here's the real question...

Is the new regime either so poor at talent evaluation they thought these guys were fine or are they so arrogant they literally thought "hey we can coach up any scrubs in our scheme they'll work out"

Whichever one it is it's a horrible sign.

Exactly. Either way - pathetic.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 05:57 PM
We have three picks in the first two rounds.

It would be a mistake NOT to go o-line with all of these selections.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 05:57 PM
That would just be silly. We need a center much more.

If you take an interior lineman with a top 15 pick you should literally be fired on the spot.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-25-2009, 05:58 PM
We could have easily picked up multiple long term solutions instead of Donald Washington, Colin Brown, and Magee, but the great Pioli knows all.

chiefs1111
10-25-2009, 05:59 PM
It's all about this team not having nearly enough talent.

allen_kcCard
10-25-2009, 06:01 PM
We have three picks in the first two rounds.

It would be a mistake NOT to go o-line with all of these selections.

Bullshit. It might be a mistake not to go o-line with one of them, but all of them is rediculous.

EDIT: And by one of them, I mean more lie the 3rd one...mabye the 2nd if there is a big value there, NOT the 1st.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-25-2009, 06:01 PM
Just imagine:

Take Luigs in the 4th
Robinson in the 5th

Pick up Meredith off the wire.

Gives you an OL of

Albert (Richardson)
Waters (Smith)
Luigs (Smith)
Robinson (Niswanger)
Meredith (Richardson) (O'Callaghan)

Just replace Waters in the next draft, and viola.

That's why mid-round picks are important.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:02 PM
We could have easily picked up multiple long term solutions instead of Donald Washington, Colin Brown, and Magee, but the great Pioli knows all.

I find it funny how all the things said on draft day are coming true yet anyone who dared say them 6 months ago was crucified.

Rain Man
10-25-2009, 06:03 PM
Here's the real question...

Is the new regime either so poor at talent evaluation they thought these guys were fine or are they so arrogant they literally thought "hey we can coach up any scrubs in our scheme they'll work out"

Whichever one it is it's a horrible sign.


I'm still not going to criticize them 7 games into a major turnaround project, so how about this as a potential good theory?

They realize the importance of key positions like defensive line and quarterback, and know that it's not going to be a one-year turnaround. And they know that there's no guarantee that a d-lineman or quarterback will work out. So they decided to roll the dice on those positions first with Jackson, Cassel, and Magee as their major investments, feeling that they have a usable RB or two and a usable WR, and they can rebuild the offensive line next year or whenever they get the d-line and QB positions nailed down.


The only hole in this theory is all the cap money sitting in a bank vault somewhere.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:03 PM
Bullshit. It might be a mistake not to go o-line with one of them, but all of them is rediculous.

EDIT: And by one of them, I mean more lie the 3rd one...mabye the 2nd if there is a big value there, NOT the 1st.

Obviously you don't care about winning.

Everything on this team begins and ends with the o-line; it's the Patriot way.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:05 PM
That still makes no sense rainman, why would you go invest in the QB then not do anything with the OL that year?

That theory would have made sense if they had drafted a rookie and sat him. Basically putting a bum out there to be the sacrifice.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-25-2009, 06:06 PM
It's been 9 months, not 7 games.

Rain Man
10-25-2009, 06:06 PM
If you take an interior lineman with a top 15 pick you should literally be fired on the spot.


I was just poking you with a stick.

But honestly, I feel kind of the same way about safeties, but everyone is hot around here on taking a safety with a top-five pick, and that scares me.

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:06 PM
I'm still not going to criticize them 7 games into a major turnaround project, so how about this as a potential good theory?

They realize the importance of key positions like defensive line and quarterback, and know that it's not going to be a one-year turnaround. And they know that there's no guarantee that a d-lineman or quarterback will work out. So they decided to roll the dice on those positions first with Jackson, Cassel, and Magee as their major investments, feeling that they have a usable RB or two and a usable WR, and they can rebuild the offensive line next year or whenever they get the d-line and QB positions nailed down.


The only hole in this theory is all the cap money sitting in a bank vault somewhere.

If they absolutely had to go with a 5 tech DE with a top 5, Suh in the next draft would been a better value than jackson in this draft.

Though, justifying a 5 tech in the top 5 is really difficult to do.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:07 PM
I was just poking you with a stick.

But honestly, I feel kind of the same way about safeties, but everyone is hot around here on taking a safety with a top-five pick, and that scares me.

Have you seen how valuable safeties are now?

The league is pass happy, having a playmaker at safety is something basically all of the top defenses have in common.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:08 PM
I was just poking you with a stick.

But honestly, I feel kind of the same way about safeties, but everyone is hot around here on taking a safety with a top-five pick, and that scares me.

I'm glad you clarified that you were using a stick. I was about to get really disgusted.

googlegoogle
10-25-2009, 06:08 PM
To pass the ball you must have time to throw. To run the ball you need running lanes. We need a 'mediocre' Oline. Our Oline is AWFUL. If we drafted the Boise State left tackle and the BA then we would be way better. Seriously. Herm was REACHING just like all of us were too on GD.

Rain Man
10-25-2009, 06:09 PM
That still makes no sense rainman, why would you go invest in the QB then not do anything with the OL that year?

That theory would have made sense if they had drafted a rookie and sat him. Basically putting a bum out there to be the sacrifice.


Keep in mind that I wanted o-linemen too, so I'm not saying it's my preferred strategy. But putting a QB out there is really no different than a lot of expansion teams' strategies - David Carr, Tim Couch, Archie Manning, etc. And Cassel was "only" a second-round pick, so maybe they thought he had the potential to be the franchise, but even if not, they could still trot him out there while they're rebuilding. Who knows?

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:09 PM
In fairness no one really thought Clady was that good.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:10 PM
Keep in mind that I wanted o-linemen too, so I'm not saying it's my preferred strategy. But putting a QB out there is really no different than a lot of expansion teams' strategies - David Carr, Tim Couch, Archie Manning, etc. And Cassel was "only" a second-round pick, so maybe they thought he had the potential to be the franchise, but even if not, they could still trot him out there while they're rebuilding. Who knows?

It makes them look like they don't know what they're doing is what it does...

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-25-2009, 06:10 PM
And Cassel was "only" a second-round pick, so maybe they thought he had the potential to be the franchise, but even if not, they could still trot him out there while they're rebuilding. Who knows?

Cassel isn't a discrete entity.

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:11 PM
In fairness no one really thought Clady was that good.

I thought Clady was going to be good, as a pass blocker.

I didn't think he'd be this good this quick at run blocking.

He's gotten some excellent coaching, and that is another area that we are far behind in.

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:15 PM
Blame the almighty GM for not using any mid round picks on OL when it was a very deep OL draft class.

Yeah, because the Chiefs were solid at every other position.

If you weren't bitching about the OL you'd be bitching about some other position group Pioli "ignored".

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:16 PM
Here's the real question...

Is the new regime either so poor at talent evaluation they thought these guys were fine or are they so arrogant they literally thought "hey we can coach up any scrubs in our scheme they'll work out"

Whichever one it is it's a horrible sign.

Or it could be that Clark spent so much time making his decision that every other team in the league had a two month plus head start.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:17 PM
Yeah, because the Chiefs were solid at every other position.

If you weren't bitching about the OL you'd be bitching about some other position group Pioli "ignored".

Why are you so adamant about defending Pioli tonight?

Up to this point, it seems pretty undeniable that the dude has orchestrated a pretty impressive cluster fuck.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:17 PM
I see Simplex is here to provide a great take.

The Chiefs ignored the value of the draft, simple as that. It's been said tons of times, ignore if you like.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:18 PM
Or it could be that Clark spent so much time making his decision that every other team in the league had a two month plus head start.

They were hired before FA and the draft right?

Alright, so we have 3 options...they are either arrogant, incompetent, or Clark is cheap...or maybe it's all 3 because money doesn't explain the draft decisions.

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:18 PM
I find it funny how all the things said on draft day are coming true yet anyone who dared say them 6 months ago was crucified.

All of them, huh? Like how Sanchez was going to be tearing up the league his entire rookie season?

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:20 PM
Who said he was going to be awesome as a rookie? No one thinks rookie QB's will tear it up unless they are tards.

But that's a hell of a way to put words in peoples mouths.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:20 PM
All of them, huh? Like how Sanchez was going to be tearing up the league his entire rookie season?

Link? Other than those from ROR?

Most said he had tremendous upside, and many were saying it would be absolutely the right decision to sit him his entire n00b year.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 06:20 PM
In fairness no one really thought Clady was that good.

I think we figured he would be good in Denver's Zone Blocking Scheme.

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:21 PM
Yeah, because the Chiefs were solid at every other position.

If you weren't bitching about the OL you'd be bitching about some other position group Pioli "ignored".

We talked for months prior to the draft about the deep talent at O-Line that the draft had to offer.

If Pioli had followed the value of that draft, and gone O-Line, rather than spending a top 5 pick, and the third round pick on 5 tech DEs forcing an immediate change to the 34, and gone into this next draft looking for 34 defenders, this team would be better now, and would not have in any way hurt their progress for the future.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:22 PM
Link? Other than those from ROR?

Most said he had tremendous upside, and many were saying it would be absolutely the right decision to sit him his entire n00b year.

Simplex was pulling this not that long ago also, this is what it is. People so badly want to be positive and like this team pointing out any kind of reality is not welcomed.

I'm sorry to this point Scott Pioli is a fat retard and Todd Haley is nothing more than a guy who screams and tries to talk a big game.

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:22 PM
I see Simplex is here to provide a great take.

The Chiefs ignored the value of the draft, simple as that. It's been said tons of times, ignore if you like.

I still don't know why you haven't sent your resume to the Chiefs. Seriously. You're a fucking genius. Hell, you weren't wrong about ANYTHING in the last draft. You've been dead-on with EVERY player evaluation you've ever done. Any team would be lucky to have you.

Rain Man
10-25-2009, 06:23 PM
Have you seen how valuable safeties are now?

The league is pass happy, having a playmaker at safety is something basically all of the top defenses have in common.


If they're worth first-round picks, most of the league doesn't know that. There have been no more than 18 1st-round safeties taken in the past 10 years.

Now, it is duly noted that pretty much every star safety is in that list - Reed, Polamalu, Sean Taylor, and maybe Rolle and Meriweather. But only 6 safeties have been top-ten picks. Five of the six have had some value, but only three have been good long-term answers (giving the benefit of the doubt to Sean Taylor).

If we were drafting 15th or 18th, sure, take a safety. But a top-ten safety had darn well better be a hall of famer, because it's an unusual investment.


2009
(None in first round)

2008
Kenny Phillips (31st pick)
Is Cason a safety (27th pick)

2007
Laron Landry (6th pick)
Michael Griffin (19th pick)
Brandon Meriweather (24th pick)

2006
Michael Huff (7th pick)
Donte Whitner (8th pick)

2005
Antrel Rolle (8th pick), but may have been drafted as a CB
Thomas Davis (14th pick), but now playing LB

2004
Sean Taylor (5th pick)

2003
Troy Polamalu (16th pick)

2002
Roy Williams (8th pick)
Ed Reed (24th pick)

2001
Adam Archuleta (20th pick)
Willie Middlebrooks (24th pick)
Jamar Fletcher (26th pick) (or was he a CB?)
Derrick Gibson (28th pick)

2000
(None)

1999
Fernando Bryant (26th pick) (or was he a CB?)

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:23 PM
Why are you so adamant about defending Pioli tonight?

Up to this point, it seems pretty undeniable that the dude has orchestrated a pretty impressive cluster fuck.

He took on a team completely devoid of any talent. I'm not saying he's done a great job because the reality is nobody has a clue what he has or hasn't done yet.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:24 PM
I still don't know why you haven't sent your resume to the Chiefs. Seriously. You're a fucking genius. Hell, you weren't wrong about ANYTHING in the last draft. You've been dead-on with EVERY player evaluation you've ever done. Any team would be lucky to have you.

And here we are back to the "you don't work in the NFL" take.

Go fuck yourself you dipshit, no one here works in the NFL. If you don't like my view ignore me or better yet go fuck yourself in the eye with a rusty knife.

If that is the only argument you can ever go to, go get a better hobby like watching paint dry because it brings nothing. You just sound like one of the 500 Pats fans dipshits that invaded the forum.

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:25 PM
We talked for months prior to the draft about the deep talent at O-Line that the draft had to offer.

If Pioli had followed the value of that draft, and gone O-Line, rather than spending a top 5 pick, and the third round pick on 5 tech DEs forcing an immediate change to the 34, and gone into this next draft looking for 34 defenders, this team would be better now, and would not have in any way hurt their progress for the future.

Yup. You just KNOW they would be better.

Considering the number of you people that can see the future and can see ALTERNATE futures it's pretty surprising you aren't all rich off the stock market.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:26 PM
He took on a team completely devoid of any talent. I'm not saying he's done a great job because the reality is nobody has a clue what he has or hasn't done yet.

Why can't we analyze his decisions thus far?

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:26 PM
Simplex was pulling this not that long ago also, this is what it is. People so badly want to be positive and like this team pointing out any kind of reality is not welcomed.

I'm sorry to this point Scott Pioli is a fat retard and Todd Haley is nothing more than a guy who screams and tries to talk a big game.

I'm not telling you to be positive, but to pretend you know what the hell is going to happen in the future and/or how the present would be different if you changed the past is patently retarded.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:26 PM
We said this stuff before the draft ever happened, but if you'd like to make it up like we didn't just to make yourself feel better by all means.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:27 PM
Why can't we analyze his decisions thus far?

That makes us bad fans dude, I swear some people want this place to become WPI or the Coalition, if that's what you want, go post there.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 06:28 PM
Link? Other than those from ROR?

Most said he had tremendous upside, and many were saying it would be absolutely the right decision to sit him his entire n00b year.

If it was my call this would have been our last week of the Jon Kitna/Joey Harrington era for the Chiefs. Sanchez wouldn't have played until this next game, which is after the bye.

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:28 PM
Yup. You just KNOW they would be better.

Considering the number of you people that can see the future and can see ALTERNATE futures it's pretty surprising you aren't all rich off the stock market.

I'm posting an opinion, and you're just being a dishonest fuckhole.

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:29 PM
Why can't we analyze his decisions thus far?

Go for it. "I don't think", "I wish we would have", all valid points. "We suck and it's Pioli's fault because he didn't take my advice to do X" is fucking dumb.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:29 PM
I don't think we should judge Dayton Moore either, how dare we!

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:31 PM
Go for it. "I don't think", "I wish we would have", all valid points. "We suck and it's Pioli's fault because he didn't take my advice to do X" is ****ing dumb.

Oh, I see.

If we post an opinion, and we don't qualify it with one of those disclaimers, then it obviously isn't really an opinion.

Go back to fatchatter fuckface.

JFC

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:31 PM
I'm posting an opinion, and you're just being a dishonest fuckhole.

Really? An opinion?

We talked for months prior to the draft about the deep talent at O-Line that the draft had to offer.

If Pioli had followed the value of that draft, and gone O-Line, rather than spending a top 5 pick, and the third round pick on 5 tech DEs forcing an immediate change to the 34, and gone into this next draft looking for 34 defenders, this team would be better now, and would not have in any way hurt their progress for the future.

Sounds like you're trying to state a fact to me. I don't see anything that says "I think" or "it's my opinion that."

Tuckdaddy
10-25-2009, 06:31 PM
Anyone that thinks our O-line is not the reason we lose and are not competative is nuts. They suck bad at all parts of line play. Screen plays, pass blocking and run blocking They do nothing right at all.

The first time they play well we will win. As long as we can't run and Matt gets hit 20 times a game we will lose.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:32 PM
If it was my call this would have been our last week of the Jon Kitna/Joey Harrington era for the Chiefs. Sanchez wouldn't have played until this next game, which is after the bye.

Yep.

And behind this o-line, I'd be good with him continuing to sit.

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:32 PM
Really? An opinion?



Sounds like you're trying to state a fact to me. I don't see anything that says "I think" or "it's my opinion that."

And you're just being a disingenuous fucker.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:32 PM
It was commonly accepted knowledge that the OL class in this past draft was especially deep.

Unless of course if you don't follow the draft so you wouldn't know and then in that case why would you be debating this?

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:33 PM
I don't think we should judge Dayton Moore either, how dare we!

Probably not since you don't have a clue as to what information he does/doesn't have and what kind of restraints are being place on him by ownership.

Of course that won't stop you from spouting bullshit and claiming it to be fact.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:33 PM
Sounds like you're trying to state a fact to me. I don't see anything that says "I think" or "it's my opinion that."

The fact that it's an opinion is implicit.

It's not math, so there are no absolutes.

The Bad Guy
10-25-2009, 06:33 PM
This line of thinking is hilarious. Some of you act like if we do take a safety in the top 5, that we will use no other picks in the draft on the line, and we will continue to ignore it in free agency.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:34 PM
Look at that Deez, you aren't suppose to judge Dayton Moore either according to Simplex.

He thinks the best fan is the brainless dumbass who cheers hard and never questions anything, that's great.

Gadzooks
10-25-2009, 06:34 PM
Hey milkman, Hali came close a few times rochambeau

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:34 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't feel that I have to open every fucking post with "I think" or "It's my opinion" or some similar crap to post an opinion.

That's all we're fucking doing here.

Posting fucking opinions.

JFC

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:34 PM
Probably not since you don't have a clue as to what information he does/doesn't have and what kind of restraints are being place on him by ownership.

Of course that won't stop you from spouting bullshit and claiming it to be fact.

Dude...:shake:

Dayton Moore is the most incompetent sack of shit to be called a "GM" in professional baseball. His levels of fail are pretty spectacular.

Just as I don't have access to some of his "inside" information, he doesn't have access to something that I have in bunches: common sense.

Simplex3
10-25-2009, 06:34 PM
Oh, I see.

If we post an opinion, and we don't qualify it with one of those disclaimers, then it obviously isn't really an opinion.

Go back to fatchatter fuckface.

JFC

Good idea. Far fewer sanctimonious assholes. Thanks for the advice.

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:36 PM
Hey milkman, Hali came close a few times rochambeau

Fucker

LMAO

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:36 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't feel that I have to open every fucking post with "I think" or "It's my opinion" or some similar crap to post an opinion.

That's all we're fucking doing here.

Posting fucking opinions.

JFC

No shit, do we really need to open every post with "my opinion of this is"

milkman
10-25-2009, 06:38 PM
Good idea. Far fewer sanctimonious assholes. Thanks for the advice.

You're welcome, you disingenuous bastard.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:39 PM
Simplex in this thread reminds me of a kid going "no stop you're ruining my fantasy land shutup!" and jamming his fingers in his ears.

ForeverChiefs58
10-25-2009, 06:42 PM
What is sad is that Trezell Jenkins (sp) would be the star of this line.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 06:43 PM
Dude...:shake:

Dayton Moore is the most incompetent sack of shit to be called a "GM" in professional baseball. His levels of fail are pretty spectacular.

Just as I don't have access to some of his "inside" information, he doesn't have access to something that I have in bunches: common sense.

Dayton Moore has looked better than fucking Scott I was ESPN's Executive of the Decade Pioli

The_Doctor10
10-25-2009, 06:44 PM
Here's the real question...

Is the new regime either so poor at talent evaluation they thought these guys were fine or are they so arrogant they literally thought "hey we can coach up any scrubs in our scheme they'll work out"

Whichever one it is it's a horrible sign.

Honestly, I'd guess the second one. But they will have realized they can't quite do that and I fully expect them to do things better next season.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Dayton Moore has looked better than ****ing Scott I was ESPN's Executive of the Decade Pioli

Possible.

But I have considerable disdain for Moore, so much, in fact, that I have long since ceased to be objective.

I think he's about the single worst individual in professional sports. The dude is completely incompetent.

dirk digler
10-25-2009, 06:48 PM
I still get a chuckle remembering the draft thread which IIRC after the Donald Washington pick Mecca and DeeNutz laughing it up about all the O-line supporters freaking out over the Chiefs not picking OL.

Then DeeNutz made his historic post

Cassel is going to get killed111ohnoes1111

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:48 PM
Possible.

But I have considerable disdain for Moore, so much, in fact, that I have long since ceased to be objective.

I think he's about the single worst individual in professional sports. The dude is completely incompetent.

"We value OBP" ::trades for Mike Jacobs::

"What are defensive stats I've never heard of those"

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:48 PM
I still get a chuckle remembering the draft thread which IIRC after the Donald Washington pick Mecca and DeeNutz laughing it up about all the O-line supporters freaking out over the Chiefs not picking OL.

Then DeeNutz made his historic post

Donald Washington was the only real value pick the Chiefs had in the entire draft, that's how bad it was.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:49 PM
I still get a chuckle remembering the draft thread which IIRC after the Donald Washington pick Mecca and DeeNutz laughing it up about all the O-line supporters freaking out over the Chiefs not picking OL.

Then DeeNutz made his historic post

If you're going to post that, you should at least provide the accurate context.

Surprisingly, I was being a smart ass and mocking the reactions of posters. If you think that was a serious endorsement or criticism of any individual pick, you've seriously misread.

dirk digler
10-25-2009, 06:50 PM
Donald Washington was the only real value pick the Chiefs had in the entire draft, that's how bad it was.

They should have never drafted him they should spent that pick on OL especially on the interior.

FringeNC
10-25-2009, 06:51 PM
I think Pioli and Haley may have been fooled by the jump in output after we went to the spread last year. Before the spread, we looked just like we do now. Absolutely dreadful in yards per play. Using the spread, we were actually slightly above the NFL average in yards per play. It was astonishing.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 06:51 PM
They should have never drafted him they should spent that pick on OL especially on the interior.

Because that's the pick that broke the camel's back...

Mecca
10-25-2009, 06:52 PM
Considering with the next pick the Chiefs drafted Colin Brown ahead of Duke Robinson etc...if they had taken an OL instead of Washington it would have probably just been Brown a round earlier.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 06:52 PM
If they're worth first-round picks, most of the league doesn't know that. There have been no more than 18 1st-round safeties taken in the past 10 years.

Now, it is duly noted that pretty much every star safety is in that list - Reed, Polamalu, Sean Taylor, and maybe Rolle and Meriweather. But only 6 safeties have been top-ten picks. Five of the six have had some value, but only three have been good long-term answers (giving the benefit of the doubt to Sean Taylor).

If we were drafting 15th or 18th, sure, take a safety. But a top-ten safety had darn well better be a hall of famer, because it's an unusual investment.


2009
(None in first round)

2008
Kenny Phillips (31st pick)
Is Cason a safety (27th pick)

2007
Laron Landry (6th pick)
Michael Griffin (19th pick)
Brandon Meriweather (24th pick)

2006
Michael Huff (7th pick)
Donte Whitner (8th pick)

2005
Antrel Rolle (8th pick), but may have been drafted as a CB
Thomas Davis (14th pick), but now playing LB

2004
Sean Taylor (5th pick)

2003
Troy Polamalu (16th pick)

2002
Roy Williams (8th pick)
Ed Reed (24th pick)

2001
Adam Archuleta (20th pick)
Willie Middlebrooks (24th pick)
Jamar Fletcher (26th pick) (or was he a CB?)
Derrick Gibson (28th pick)

2000
(None)

1999
Fernando Bryant (26th pick) (or was he a CB?)

You're basing most of this on an evaluation of 4-3defenses because few great 3-4 defenses draft in the top 10, especially the top 5. And you're including a lot of years where there were good not great safeties on the top of the board.

A playmaker at safety is a huge bonus for a 3-4. And great ones don't grow on trees. In a 3-4, a Safety carries very high positional value, if he has pro bowl type potential.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 06:53 PM
I think Pioli and Haley may have been fooled by the jump in output after we went to the spread last year. Before the spread, we looked just like we do now. Absolutely dreadful in yards per play. Using the spread, we were actually slightly above the NFL average in yards per play. It was astonishing.

I think that is part of the problem. They saw those bull shit stats, our close games and thought - add our QB, new coaching and fix the defense we will be 8-8.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 06:55 PM
Yup. You just KNOW they would be better.

Considering the number of you people that can see the future and can see ALTERNATE futures it's pretty surprising you aren't all rich off the stock market.

Nobody knows that they'd be better.

But come on, is it rocket science? You invest a 2nd round pick and $60M on a QB. And you have a truckload of tape that says the 3 guys on the right side clearly aren't the answer. As I always say, it's like buying yourself a Porsche with no security or insurance and parking it in the ghetto. If your Porsche gets broken into, it's your dumb fault.

FringeNC
10-25-2009, 06:57 PM
I think that is part of the problem. They saw those bull shit stats, our close games and thought - add our QB, new coaching and fix the defense we will be 8-8.

Yep. Exactly.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 06:58 PM
I still don't know why you haven't sent your resume to the Chiefs. Seriously. You're a fucking genius. Hell, you weren't wrong about ANYTHING in the last draft. You've been dead-on with EVERY player evaluation you've ever done. Any team would be lucky to have you.

If you think that stating the obvious is genius, maybe this is why you're so willing to back Pioli?

dirk digler
10-25-2009, 06:59 PM
If you're going to post that, you should at least provide the accurate context.

Surprisingly, I was being a smart ass and mocking the reactions of posters. If you think that was a serious endorsement or criticism of any individual pick, you've seriously misread.

I guess I did misread. You were definitely mocking us. Your post before that was Let the implosion begin.

Of course Mecca stated after that "How he likes how people freak out when we don't pick OL"

Maybe now he sees why people freak out because our O-Line is an abortion

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 07:00 PM
Yeah, because the Chiefs were solid at every other position.

If you weren't bitching about the OL you'd be bitching about some other position group Pioli "ignored".

The Chiefs have now taken 5-technique defensive ends with two Top 5 draft choices and a third with their 3rd round pick.

If you think this was a wise decision considering the state of the offensive line in 2008, we'll have to agree to disagree.

While the Chiefs needed help everywhere heading into the 2009 draft, offensive line was clearly a priority, especially considering that they had just traded a 2nd round pick and $63 million to a QB.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 07:00 PM
Just because you don't want them to use a top 5 pick on an OT doesn't mean you don't think there's OL value in the mid rounds those fuckups are the problems.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 07:01 PM
I guess I did misread. You were definitely mocking us. Your post before that was Let the implosion begin.

Of course Mecca stated after that "How he likes how people freak out when we don't pick OL"

Maybe now he sees why people freak out because our O-Line is an abortion

:clap:

If you wanted to, you could dig up about 2-3 posts from today from me, calling for the Chiefs to select nothing but o-linemen.

For the record, I was NOT serious.

Mr. Laz
10-25-2009, 07:03 PM
Did the offensive line overthrow 3 wide open receivers missing out on touchdowns?
Did the offensive line underthrow a wideout Bowe for a first down?
Did the offensive line drop several easy passes that stopped drives?
Did the offensive line make a stupid roughing the passer penalty?
Did the offensive line miss a fieldgoal?
Did the offensive line call a timeout giving the chargers the extra time to snag a field goal?

a 10 year old's simplistic view of football "it's about the offensive line"

:shake:

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 07:04 PM
He took on a team completely devoid of any talent. I'm not saying he's done a great job because the reality is nobody has a clue what he has or hasn't done yet.

A clue?

The team has regressed in each and every statistical category. The top 5 selection has been invisible. The third round choice has been invisible. The 4th round choice has been invisible. The 6th round choice was just cut. The 7th round selection is a joke.

Mike Goff sucks ass. Bobby Engram has been invisible. Zach Thomas couldn't even make the team.

I'm pretty sure I have a clue and that clue is "None".

As in, how may players acquired by Scott Pioli have had a positive impact on the 2009 Chiefs.

dirk digler
10-25-2009, 07:04 PM
:clap:

If you wanted to, you could dig up about 2-3 posts from today from me, calling for the Chiefs to select nothing but o-linemen.

For the record, I was NOT serious.

I know you weren't. I have you figured out now you aren't fooling me at least. :D

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 07:04 PM
Did the offensive line overthrow 3 wide open receivers missing out on touchdowns?
Did the offensive line underthrow a wideout Bowe for a first down?
Did the offensive line drop several easy passes that stopped drives?
Did the offensive line make a stupid roughing the passer penalty?
Did the offensive line miss a fieldgoal?
Did the offensive line call a timeout giving the chargers the extra time to snag a field goal?

a 10 year old's simplistic view of football "it's about the offensive line"

:shake:

Damn a good take by Laz. Rep.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 07:06 PM
It's all about the offensive line when you're hoping like hell that all of the moves the new regime actually did make aren't all full of fail.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 07:06 PM
I'm pretty sure I have a clue and that clue is "None".

As in, how may players acquired by Scott Pioli have had a positive impact on the 2009 Chiefs.

Succop has been pretty good but I think that is more to the credit of Steve Hoffman. He did it every freaking year in Dallas.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 07:08 PM
Did the offensive line overthrow 3 wide open receivers missing out on touchdowns?
Did the offensive line underthrow a wideout Bowe for a first down?
Did the offensive line drop several easy passes that stopped drives?
Did the offensive line make a stupid roughing the passer penalty?
Did the offensive line miss a fieldgoal?
Did the offensive line call a timeout giving the chargers the extra time to snag a field goal?

a 10 year old's simplistic view of football "it's about the offensive line"

:shake:

It's also a simplistic view to believe that all units are equally to blame.

Today, Cassel probably deserves the most blame of anyone. But it's not like anyone else came to play. And in most games, it was clearly the offensive line to blame.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 07:09 PM
Yup. You just KNOW they would be better.

Considering the number of you people that can see the future and can see ALTERNATE futures it's pretty surprising you aren't all rich off the stock market.

I think you need to come to grips with the fact that there are people in this forum far more knowledgeable about college players, the draft and the NFL in general than others.

Pablo
10-25-2009, 07:14 PM
I think you need to come to grips with the fact that there are people in this forum far more knowledgeable about college players, the draft and the NFL in general than others.While that's true; those same folks aren't soothsayers and to suggest that we would with absolute certainty be better had we gone route A, B, C, etc. is foolish.

Maybe that's simplex's issue. Some posters speak in certainties; while others speak in opinions. Maybe he has a hard time differentiating the two; or thinks posters should make a better effort to separate their own personal opinions from the absolute truth.

FringeNC
10-25-2009, 07:15 PM
There has only been one game where the Chiefs broke 5 yards per play on offense -- against Oakland. The NFL average is over 5 yards per play. If it was on the QB or WR or whatever, we'd occasionally have a decent game on offense. We haven't. It IS primarily on the offensive line. We simply cannot run a standard NFL offense, which is why we went to the spread last year. We'd be better off this year just putting Cassel in the shotgun every play. I'm sure Haley and Pioli have considered it, but for whatever reason, have decided against it.

milkman
10-25-2009, 07:16 PM
While that's true; those same folks aren't soothsayers and to suggest that we would with absolute certainty be better had we gone route A, B, C, etc. is foolish.

Maybe that's simplex's issue. Some posters speak in certainties; while others speak in opinions. Maybe he has a hard time differentiating the two; or thinks posters should make a better effort to separate their own personal opinions from the absolute truth.

I think Simplex needs to some to grips with the fact that this is a forum that we talk about our opinions, and it shouldn't be necessary to tell everyone that we are stating opinions.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 07:18 PM
While that's true; those same folks aren't soothsayers and to suggest that we would with absolute certainty be better had we gone route A, B, C, etc. is foolish.

Maybe that's simplex's issue. Some posters speak in certainties; while others speak in opinions. Maybe he has a hard time differentiating the two; or thinks posters should make a better effort to separate their own personal opinions from the absolute truth.

Well, the absolute truth is that Jackson, Magee, Washington, Brown, Lawrence and O'Connell have not made any positive impact on the 2009 season.

Mike Goof, Zach Thomas, Bobby Engram and Mike Brown have not had a positive impact on the 2009 season.

I think it's fair to state that the Chiefs drafted a few of the offensive lineman from a deep and respected draft class, they would have had more impact than the players that Pioli brought to the Chiefs this year.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-25-2009, 07:33 PM
Simplex really showed his ass in this thread. What a fucking amazing display of idiocy.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-25-2009, 07:37 PM
While that's true; those same folks aren't soothsayers and to suggest that we would with absolute certainty be better had we gone route A, B, C, etc. is foolish.

Maybe that's simplex's issue. Some posters speak in certainties; while others speak in opinions. Maybe he has a hard time differentiating the two; or thinks posters should make a better effort to separate their own personal opinions from the absolute truth.

Well, when players A, B, and C are productive, and Pioli's players are cocksucking bums, then yes, you can speak with certitude.

Mr. Laz
10-25-2009, 07:45 PM
It's also a simplistic view to believe that all units are equally to blame.

Today, Cassel probably deserves the most blame of anyone. But it's not like anyone else came to play. And in most games, it was clearly the offensive line to blame.
who said all units are equally to blame?

link?

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 07:47 PM
Well, when players A, B, and C are productive, and Pioli's players are cocksucking bums, then yes, you can speak with certitude.

On draft day, I stated that this was the worst draft in the history of the Chiefs franchise. People laughed, thought I was joking, etc.

While it's possible that Jackson, Magee & Washington become serviceable, they're certainly not going to be game changers and will most likely be all but forgotten in 10 years or less.

BIG K
10-25-2009, 07:48 PM
Well, the absolute truth is that Jackson, Magee, Washington, Brown, Lawrence and O'Connell have not made any positive impact on the 2009 season.

Mike Goof, Zach Thomas, Bobby Engram and Mike Brown have not had a positive impact on the 2009 season.

I think it's fair to state that the Chiefs drafted a few of the offensive lineman from a deep and respected draft class, they would have had more impact than the players that Pioli brought to the Chiefs this year.

I have seen rare glimpses of hope from different players on this team but, I cannot think of anyone who has made an impact on this team thus far, from the old regime's' or pillowees....Are they all bad or is it something else?

The Bad Guy
10-25-2009, 07:54 PM
On draft day, I stated that this was the worst draft in the history of the Chiefs franchise. People laughed, thought I was joking, etc.

While it's possible that Jackson, Magee & Washington become serviceable, they're certainly not going to be game changers and will most likely be all but forgotten in 10 years or less.

There is no draft that will be worse than the 2001 or 2002 drafts. No chance.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 07:57 PM
There is no draft that will be worse than the 2001 or 2002 drafts. No chance.

With multiple picks to acquire fucking Dick "I'm going to blow up your fucking franchise" Vermeil, I'd have to say that '01 would be tough to beat.

Saccopoo
10-25-2009, 07:58 PM
I wonder how many are going to go campaign to use our top 5 pick on a OT...so then my head can explode.

Our Top Five pick:
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/71/711150.jpg

One of our second round picks:
http://images.athlonsports.com/d/15454-1/ZaneBeadles.jpg

Our third round pick:
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/68/687742.jpg

or

http://blog.silive.com/sportsstories/2009/09/large_eric-olsen-09-12-09.jpg

Sorry Mecca. This line is complete and utter dog shit. I know that people want a safety, but this team doesn't have the luxury of picking a safety right now. Teams like Indy and Pittsburgh had the luxury of doing it when they did because they had the base building blocks up the middle. When you get to the 10-6, 11-5 mark, then you pick those "best of draft" safety, tight end, ILB, etc. in the later half of the first round to round out your team into a Super Bowl level team. But the Chiefs don't have that luxury right now. They need the building blocks. A safety for the Chiefs is like putting $750/ea race tires on a Geo Metro. You've got to have the chassis and working engine before you start putting on the NOS system.

I think everyone to a man would say that Berry, if he comes out, will be the best player in this draft. And Mays probably has the highest ceiling of anyone in the draft. However, it would be a complete waste of them and the Chiefs pick in terms of properly rebuilding this team to draft a safety with that pick.

That's at least how I see it.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 07:59 PM
There is no draft that will be worse than the 2001 or 2002 drafts. No chance.

I disagree.

As much as I hated Dick Vermeil and the Trent Green trade, they did have some value. Not much longevity but some value. A lot of people enjoyed that era, myself not included.

Sims and Fujita are still in the league and Fujita's a very productive player.

I don't know if that will be said for this group.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 08:02 PM
Saccopoo wants to rebuild the past team we had so it can never win anything.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 08:03 PM
Our Top Five pick:
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/71/711150.jpg

One of our second round picks:
http://images.athlonsports.com/d/15454-1/ZaneBeadles.jpg

Our third round pick:
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/68/687742.jpg

or

http://blog.silive.com/sportsstories/2009/09/large_eric-olsen-09-12-09.jpg

Sorry Mecca. This line is complete and utter dog shit. I know that people want a safety, but this team doesn't have the luxury of picking a safety right now. Teams like Indy and Pittsburgh had the luxury of doing it when they did because they had the base building blocks up the middle. When you get to the 10-6, 11-5 mark, then you pick those "best of draft" safety, tight end, ILB, etc. in the later half of the first round to round out your team into a Super Bowl level team. But the Chiefs don't have that luxury right now. They need the building blocks. A safety for the Chiefs is like putting $750/ea race tires on a Geo Metro. You've got to have the chassis and working engine before you start putting on the NOS system.

I think everyone to a man would say that Berry, if he comes out, will be the best player in this draft. And Mays probably has the highest ceiling of anyone in the draft. However, it would be a complete waste of them and the Chiefs pick in terms of properly rebuilding this team to draft a safety with that pick.

That's at least how I see it.

Apparently you were only watching one side of the ball today. Replace McGraw with Berry, and most of those big plays would have been cut down significantly. Safety is a very, very big problem.

If Okung was a stud left tackle, maybe. But he's not. He's just a guy. Berry is a playmaker.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 08:03 PM
I disagree.

As much as I hated Dick Vermeil and the Trent Green trade, they did have some value. Not much longevity but some value. A lot of people enjoyed that era, myself not included.

Sims and Fujita are still in the league and Fujita's a very productive player.

I don't know if that will be said for this group.

No, no, no, no, no.

We gave picks for someone who proceeded to carpet bomb the entire organization. It's the equivalent of paying someone to come to your house to fuck your wife and then crying that she cheated on you.

We requested to be fisted, and DV obliged. That motherfucker was the single worst thing ever to happen to this franchise.

'01 will always have a special distinction.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 08:05 PM
No, no, no, no, no.

We gave picks for someone who proceeded to carpet bomb the entire organization. It's the equivalent of paying someone to come to your house to fuck your wife and then crying that she cheated on you.

We requested to be fisted, and DV obliged. That motherfucker was the single worst thing ever to happen to this franchise.

'01 will always have a special distinction.

Oh, don't get me wrong: I fucking hate DV and how his regime destroyed the Chiefs franchise.

But, there are a lot of people who feel the exact polar opposite.

They're wrong, of course.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 08:06 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong: I ****ing hate DV and how his regime destroyed the Chiefs franchise.

But, there are a lot of people who feel the exact polar opposite.

They're wrong, of course.

"It was fun!"

Bunch of sadistic fucks.

Saccopoo
10-25-2009, 08:11 PM
Apparently you were only watching one side of the ball today. Replace McGraw with Berry, and most of those big plays would have been cut down significantly. Safety is a very, very big problem.

If Okung was a stud left tackle, maybe. But he's not. He's just a guy. Berry is a playmaker.

It doesn't matter if the Chiefs can't get a first down or not though...

And Berry wouldn't have made a difference on those pass plays. Teams are putting our #3 cornerback on the outside on an island. A safety wouldn't have and won't help that whatsoever.

And I realize that safety is a problem, but it's not as big a problem as the offensive line, and there are guys in this draft who I think are better RT propects than anybody from last years class, headed by Ciron Black and Zane Beadles. And I personally think that other than Oher, Okung is as good, if not better, with a better ceiling, than LT's taken in last years draft.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 08:14 PM
Sorry there is no need to use the first pick on OL.

milkman
10-25-2009, 08:14 PM
Our Top Five pick:
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/71/711150.jpg

One of our second round picks:
http://images.athlonsports.com/d/15454-1/ZaneBeadles.jpg

Our third round pick:
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/68/687742.jpg

or

http://blog.silive.com/sportsstories/2009/09/large_eric-olsen-09-12-09.jpg

Sorry Mecca. This line is complete and utter dog shit. I know that people want a safety, but this team doesn't have the luxury of picking a safety right now. Teams like Indy and Pittsburgh had the luxury of doing it when they did because they had the base building blocks up the middle. When you get to the 10-6, 11-5 mark, then you pick those "best of draft" safety, tight end, ILB, etc. in the later half of the first round to round out your team into a Super Bowl level team. But the Chiefs don't have that luxury right now. They need the building blocks. A safety for the Chiefs is like putting $750/ea race tires on a Geo Metro. You've got to have the chassis and working engine before you start putting on the NOS system.

I think everyone to a man would say that Berry, if he comes out, will be the best player in this draft. And Mays probably has the highest ceiling of anyone in the draft. However, it would be a complete waste of them and the Chiefs pick in terms of properly rebuilding this team to draft a safety with that pick.

That's at least how I see it.

I've stayed away from this conversation, cause I know it can only end badly, but in the few times I've seen Okung, I've been far from impressed.

He's a big lumbering body who only succeeds in the OSU spread because he doesn't have to hold blocks.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 08:17 PM
You do realize some of these solid OT prospects are going to start falling into the 2nd round right?

A ton of OT's have been taken high recently, most of those teams won't be dropping another high pick on one.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 08:31 PM
Okung will be exposed big time Saturday night against Texas. He is a fraud LT in a spread offense.

Gadzooks
10-25-2009, 08:37 PM
Just thought I'd mention, you never, ever take an RT in the first.
Other than taking an unproductive LSU 3-4 DE in the 1st after taking a productive LSU DT in the 1st in the previous draft and changing your entire D philosophy to suit your shitty new DE, that's aboot the worst thing you could ever do.
Thatís getting close to drafting Jamarcus Russell in terms of the enduring effects, although, the Raiders have recovered nicely.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 08:41 PM
As far as Im concerned, the Chiefs have no foundation, and I honestly think they should go offensive line with their first three picks. F**k it they need to address this situation. There has to be a main foundation for rebuilding this team and I think thats where they should place there focus. Their rebuilding anyway, might as well start with the Oline, and they've invested all this money in Cassel so they're not gonna get a new QB, might as well set him up in a position where he can succeed.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 08:42 PM
Just thought I'd mention, you never, ever take an RT in the first.
Other than taking an unproductive LSU 3-4 DE in the 1st after taking a productive LSU DT in the 1st in the previous draft and changing your entire D philosophy to suit your shitty new DE, that's aboot the worst thing you could ever do.
Thatís getting close to drafting Jamarcus Russell in terms of the enduring effects, although, the Raiders have recovered nicely.

The Charger fan gets it.

craneref
10-25-2009, 08:44 PM
I not only want to see some talent on the O line but some nasty ass attitude towards the defense as well. I loved the fact that Roaf didn't jsut want to block his man, but wanted to punish him. Not only do we lack talent, but we have NO nastiness on the front line either.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 08:44 PM
It doesn't matter if the Chiefs can't get a first down or not though...

And Berry wouldn't have made a difference on those pass plays. Teams are putting our #3 cornerback on the outside on an island. A safety wouldn't have and won't help that whatsoever.

And I realize that safety is a problem, but it's not as big a problem as the offensive line, and there are guys in this draft who I think are better RT propects than anybody from last years class, headed by Ciron Black and Zane Beadles. And I personally think that other than Oher, Okung is as good, if not better, with a better ceiling, than LT's taken in last years draft.

Your safety is a deep help. In many cases, we are running jailbreak blitzes and leaving our safety on an island to cover all the deep stuff. On the long pass play to Sproles, there is no way that Troy Polamalu isn't reading that and stuffing Sproles 5-10 yards into the play. And on most long pass plays, pay attention to the safety. They are usually 2-3 steps away from making a play.

Okung isn't better than those guys. He's an okay LT. But even if he was a good one, he's not going to make the kind of playmaking impact that Berry will. Trust me. I was one of the loudest opponents of Curry last year. But Berry plays a position that actually has very high positional value.

I'm not saying the Chiefs ignore the offensive line. But in the 2nd and 3rd round, you can get one of the top 5 Centers or Guards on the board. And that in itself will be an enormous upgrade to our existing offensive line. Taking Okung with the #1 pick is a panic move. It's a move that is purely based on filling a need rather than BPA.

And by the way, I think it's way too soon to give up on Albert. Real interesting to hear Haley talk about how Albert is being completely re-trained on technique and being forced to play completely different after his weight loss. He still has a lot of upside.

milkman
10-25-2009, 08:44 PM
The Charger fan gets it.

I think we have some pretty good Charger fans around here.

And to think, just a couple of years ago, I thought Charger fan was a myth, like BigFoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 08:46 PM
I think we have some pretty good Charger fans around here.


Isn't it just him and Buck? :D

milkman
10-25-2009, 08:47 PM
And by the way, I think it's way too soon to give up on Albert. Real interesting to hear Haley talk about how Albert is being completely re-trained on technique and being forced to play completely different after his weight loss. He still has a lot of upside.

Geez, I wonder who might have been talking about that and saying the very same thing for like months now?

milkman
10-25-2009, 08:47 PM
Isn't it just him and Buck? :D

Shoot me.

I said "some", an embellishment.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 08:49 PM
Just thought I'd mention, you never, ever take an RT in the first.
Other than taking an unproductive LSU 3-4 DE in the 1st after taking a productive LSU DT in the 1st in the previous draft and changing your entire D philosophy to suit your shitty new DE, that's aboot the worst thing you could ever do.
Thatís getting close to drafting Jamarcus Russell in terms of the enduring effects, although, the Raiders have recovered nicely.

Just take a tackle period. It's obvious we need one.

And in the second round take a guard and center to compliment. They need talent there either way. It's about having talented five guys who can block. Who honestly cares about this belief "you don't take a RT in the first." It's a stupid way of spinning things. A foundation is a foundation. And you need talent in the foundation of your team. As you can see, teams are f**k all w/o it.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 08:50 PM
Geez, I wonder who might have been talking about that and saying the very same thing for like months now?

What interested me most was when I heard him talk about how he was using his 340 lb frame as a crutch, by throwing his body around to cover up mistakes.

I've heard a lot of people talk about how he's had to play a different style of football. But it never occurred to me that he might have gotten away with poor technique not just because of the spead offense last year, but because of his size.

Gadzooks
10-25-2009, 08:51 PM
There are more of us. The rest are just gun shy from the L..lea...debacle.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 08:52 PM
Just take a tackle period. It's obvious we need one.

And in the second round take a guard and center to compliment. They need talent there either way. It's about having talented five guys who can block. Who honestly cares about this belief "you don't take a RT in the first." It's a stupid way of spinning things. A foundation is a foundation. And you need talent in the foundation of your team. As you can see, teams are f**k all w/o it.

In the first round, you NEVER draft to fill need.

You take BPA at a position that has high positional value. Any move otherwise is a complete panic move.

Nobody here denies that o-line is a priority. But drafting to fill a need with the top 5 pick is a panic move.

milkman
10-25-2009, 08:53 PM
Just take a tackle period. It's obvious we need one.

And in the second round take a guard and center to compliment. They need talent there either way. It's about having talented five guys who can block. Who honestly cares about this belief "you don't take a RT in the first." It's a stupid way of spinning things. A foundation is a foundation. And you need talent in the foundation of your team. As you can see, teams are f**k all w/o it.

You build a foundation by taking the best players that fill a need.

Mays and Berry are better players than Okung that fill a need.

You can go build an O-Line in the mid rounds.

The Saints have one of the best in the league right now, and there isn't a single first round pick on their line.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 08:55 PM
Well to be fair the Saints do have a 1st round pick OT but he's on IR.

craneref
10-25-2009, 08:55 PM
I am all for drafting the best Jugs machine possible so that our freakin receivers can be made to catch like a million balls a day in practice so they understand that a major part of their job is actuall catching the ball, just not getting their hands on it. :cuss:

Coach
10-25-2009, 08:56 PM
You build a foundation by taking the best players that fill a need.

Mays and Berry are better players than Okung that fill a need.

You can go build an O-Line in the mid rounds.

The Saints have one of the best in the league right now, and there isn't a single first round pick on their line.

Giants O-Line, there isn't a first round pick, IIRC.

milkman
10-25-2009, 08:57 PM
What interested me most was when I heard him talk about how he was using his 340 lb frame as a crutch, by throwing his body around to cover up mistakes.

I've heard a lot of people talk about how he's had to play a different style of football. But it never occurred to me that he might have gotten away with poor technique not just because of the spead offense last year, but because of his size.

He got comfortable with that weight, and he still had those "dancer's feet".

When he lost so much weight so quickly, he wasn'y used to moving as freely, and he practically tripped over himself because he was so light, relative to last year.

You can see he's trying to adjust his feet to center his lesser weight, and he's just not moving as freely even though he's much lighter.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 08:58 PM
In the first round, you NEVER draft to fill need.

You take BPA at a position that has high positional value. Any move otherwise is a complete panic move.

Nobody here denies that o-line is a priority. But drafting to fill a need with the top 5 pick is a panic move.

Im sure there will be OT's availale when we pick in the top 5 or 10. And they MUST take one whether he plays right or left tackle I don't care.

This team has failed miserably addressing the Oline in the draft. Im tired of it. Drafting 1 guy doesn't cut it. This is something they should of done previously. I don't care any way people spin it, I don't want them neglecting the foundation of a football team. This is something the Chiefs should of done when Roaf and Shields were nearing retirement.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 08:58 PM
He got comfortable with that weight, and he still had those "dancer's feet".

When he lost so much weight so quickly, he wasn'y used to moving as freely, and he practically tripped over himself because he was so light, relative to last year.

You can see he's trying to adjust his feet to center his lesser weight, and he's just not moving as freely even though he's much lighter.

I agree.

One problem is, one of the last people I want to coach him out of those habits is John fucking Muir.

milkman
10-25-2009, 08:59 PM
Well to be fair the Saints do have a 1st round pick OT but he's on IR.

True, but the fact is they've hardly missed a beat with Bushrod replacing Brown.

And that's the point.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:02 PM
The Saints have just been really good at drafting guys like that..Carl Nicks in the 5th their other guard in the 4th 2 young starting guards in the rounds they should be taken in.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:03 PM
Im sure there will be OT's availale when we pick in the top 5 or 10. And they MUST take one whether he plays right or left tackle I don't care.

This team has failed miserably addressing the Oline in the draft. Im tired of it. Drafting 1 guy doesn't cut it. This is something they should of done previously. I don't care any way people spin it, I don't want them neglecting the foundation of a football team. This is something the Chiefs should of done when Roaf and Shields were nearing retirement.

The point I'm trying to make is 3 of the positions they badly need upgrading on the offensive line are positions that are typically not first round grade picks. You can find the top center of the board with a high 2nd round pick and one of the top guards on the board with a low 2nd round pick.

And there's no reason to believe Albert won't get better once he get's used to playing at a lower weight.

You get improvement out of Albert, and you get 2 quality starters, and you've got major improvement for your o-line. Hell, the problem this season isn't so much that we lack quality starters as much as it is that we are putting in complete piles of shit on the offensive line. If you get improvement out of Albert, you get 1 quality starter, and you find someone to throw Niswanger and Goff to the curve, you've improved markedly too.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:05 PM
You build a foundation by taking the best players that fill a need.

Mays and Berry are better players than Okung that fill a need.

You can go build an O-Line in the mid rounds.

The Saints have one of the best in the league right now, and there isn't a single first round pick on their line.


The game is won in the trenches. Bottomline. So they must address what's most important. I want both the running game and passing game to improve. There will probably be an OT worthy of picking in the top 5 or 10.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:06 PM
We could take somebody like Jon Asamoah out of Illinois in the 4th round and be set at right guard for the next decade. Thats a smarter move than drafting OL so freaking early.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:08 PM
The game is won in the trenches. Bottomline. So they must address what's most important. I want both the running game and passing game to improve. There will probably be an OT worthy of picking in the top 5 or 10.

That's the bottom line. But few teams have more than one first round pick on their line.

You can build your offensive line without burning a first round pick. Again, taking a Center and a Guard in the second round and bringing in 1-2 through free agency or UDFAs, and continuing to improve Albert, that's going to make our o-line 100 times better.

Gadzooks
10-25-2009, 09:09 PM
Pioli will always find the OL gems in the mid rounds but, from the looks of it, the Chiefs will be able to pick up a high talent player in the top ten.
If you're in the top three, I could see Pioli dropping down to pick multiple 5 to 10 year star starters.
You guy's are lucky 'cause you suck during a great draft year.
If Pioli picks a DE high in the top three again, you may have reasons for murderous thoughts, but from the looks of it, you're going to have an opportunity to get several quality (if not superstar) players.
The Bolts may not even make the playoffs and will still have a shitty spot in the draft.
Advantage Chiefs. Enjoy the draft position while it lasts.
If your saviour, Pioli, has his way you won't be picking this high for years.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:09 PM
Im sure there will be OT's availale when we pick in the top 5 or 10. And they MUST take one whether he plays right or left tackle I don't care.

This team has failed miserably addressing the Oline in the draft. Im tired of it. Drafting 1 guy doesn't cut it. This is something they should of done previously. I don't care any way people spin it, I don't want them neglecting the foundation of a football team. This is something the Chiefs should of done when Roaf and Shields were nearing retirement.

Yeah.

This team never needs any playmakers.

Just draft O-Line.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:09 PM
If this team takes a guy to play RT with it's top 5 pick they are a retarded franchise.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:10 PM
The point I'm trying to make is 3 of the positions they badly need upgrading on the offensive line are positions that are typically not first round grade picks. You can find the top center of the board with a high 2nd round pick and one of the top guards on the board with a low 2nd round pick.

And there's no reason to believe Albert won't get better once he get's used to playing at a lower weight.

You get improvement out of Albert, and you get 2 quality starters, and you've got major improvement for your o-line. Hell, the problem this season isn't so much that we lack quality starters as much as it is that we are putting in complete piles of shit on the offensive line. If you get improvement out of Albert, you get 1 quality starter, and you find someone to throw Niswanger and Goff to the curve, you've improved markedly too.

And addressing the center and guard positions in the 2nd round is what they should do. Heck, gimme the best guards and centers in the draft. If you can find them in the 2nd round, you do it.

And the problem is, they lack the quality starters and are addressing the most important areas with piles of shit out there. It's no coincedence why the offensive line has sucked for the last 4 years. It's time to focus on this area and add some quality to it.

The Bad Guy
10-25-2009, 09:10 PM
Some of you fuckers are just programmed a certain way and that's it.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:11 PM
Most fans don't care about offensive lineman, this fan base overrates them.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:12 PM
Yeah.

This team never needs any playmakers.

Just draft O-Line.

Right because they don't HAVE any playmakers on the Oline. The MOST IMPORTANT position on the football team. The area that makes other players better.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:12 PM
The game is won in the trenches. Bottomline. So they must address what's most important. I want both the running game and passing game to improve. There will probably be an OT worthy of picking in the top 5 or 10.

Championships are won by playmakers.

The Chiefs had one of the best O-Line in the 90s and won jack.

They had the best O-Line in Dick's years, and won Jack.

The Steelers meanwhile had shit on Oline last year but had playmakers and won a SB.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:13 PM
Right because they don't HAVE any playmakers on the Oline. The MOST IMPORTANT position on the football team. The area that makes other players better.

Yeah, O-Lineman are playmakers.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:13 PM
This strategy of taking a bunch of Olinemen isn't going to win anything.

Teams with playmakers will beat them.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:13 PM
Right because they don't HAVE any playmakers on the Oline. The MOST IMPORTANT position on the football team. The area that makes other players better.

OL is more importan than QB. ROFL

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:14 PM
And addressing the center and guard positions in the 2nd round is what they should do. Heck, gimme the best guards and centers in the draft. If you can find them in the 2nd round, you do it.

And the problem is, they lack the quality starters and are addressing the most important areas with piles of shit out there. It's no coincedence why the offensive line has sucked for the last 4 years. It's time to focus on this area and add some quality to it.

I don't disagree with you there.

The problem this offseason was that they waited until the 5th round to finally gnab their first offensive lineman. And they brought in a reject from the Chargers to play Guard.

The Chiefs don't need to bring in 5 pro bowlers to the o-line. Not yet. They need to bring in 5 quality starters and stop parading around off-the-street shit players. If Albert continues to improve and you bring in some quality starters at Center and Guard, while you're not perfectly set at o-line, you're a hell of a lot better than 2009. You don't need to burn a top 5 pick when you can make major changes without using it.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:14 PM
OL is more importan than QB. ROFL

Only a Chiefs fan would think this, we hate QB's and superstars here but we love us some big fat guys.

Gadzooks
10-25-2009, 09:15 PM
This strategy of taking a bunch of Olinemen isn't going to win anything.

Teams with playmakers will beat them.

This. :clap:

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Most fans don't care about offensive lineman, this fan base overrates them.

It's a boring position but it's the most important. why has the offense sucked the last 4 years? Sh*tty lineman? No coincedence. When the offense was good, the Oline was amazing.

*but lets not take an Olineman with the top pick?.. oh god no! that would be like a disease.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Only a Chiefs fan would think this, we hate QB's and superstars here but we love us some big fat guys.

Its fucking retarded, especially after getting our ass kicked every time in the playoffs by a team with a stud QB you would think we would learn.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:16 PM
Right because they don't HAVE any playmakers on the Oline. The MOST IMPORTANT position on the football team. The area that makes other players better.

The only position that ever has any remotely high positional value on the o-line is left tackle. There's a reason Guards, Right Tackles, and Centers are graded in the bottom first at the absolutely very best.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:16 PM
OL is more importan than QB. ROFL

It's just as important imo.

Hey if your offense can't block what good are they?

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:17 PM
It's a boring position but it's the most important. why has the offense sucked the last 4 years? Sh*tty lineman? No coincedence. When the offense was good, the Oline was amazing.

*but lets not take an Olineman with the top pick?.. oh god no! that would be like a disease.

Would you like to relive the Marty era where the line was great the defense was great but we always got beat cause we didn't have playmakers?

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:17 PM
You know how you win in the NFL, you need a top 5 QB and a top 5 defense.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:18 PM
It's a boring position but it's the most important. why has the offense sucked the last 4 years? Sh*tty lineman? No coincedence. When the offense was good, the Oline was amazing.

*but lets not take an Olineman with the top pick?.. oh god no! that would be like a disease.

So, explain to me how a team with playmakers at QB, at WR, at safety, and at the OLB positions, but with a crappy O-Line won a SB.

Meanwhile, until the last three or 4 years, the Chiefs had a top 5 O-Line for the better part of 15 years and won jack.

Explain that to me.

philfree
10-25-2009, 09:18 PM
So we've given up on Albert then? If he doesn't show some signs between now and the end of the season then we may need to spend another high pick on a LT. 1st or 2nd round pick. I really hope Albert has an epiphany over the bye week.

PhilFree:arrow:

tyler360
10-25-2009, 09:20 PM
This team needs so many play makers everywhere. I could give a shit about the oline right now. Cassel is making this line look a lot worse than it is. Watching him at the game today in the pouring down rain made me lose faith in him. One sack he took he did one of the best Damon Huard impressions of curling up in a ball for a sack. That is all I needed to see from him to tell that this is not going to work.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:20 PM
I don't disagree with you there.

The problem this offseason was that they waited until the 5th round to finally gnab their first offensive lineman. And they brought in a reject from the Chargers to play Guard.

The Chiefs don't need to bring in 5 pro bowlers to the o-line. Not yet. They need to bring in 5 quality starters and stop parading around off-the-street shit players. If Albert continues to improve and you bring in some quality starters at Center and Guard, while you're not perfectly set at o-line, you're a hell of a lot better than 2009. You don't need to burn a top 5 pick when you can make major changes without using it.

And this is the point Im trying to make, they took this area lightly and it shows every single Sunday. Goff and Brown aren't good quality. And Im confident most will agree. The Chiefs deserve what they get. bad quality players in Goff and Brown and piss poor Oline play as a result.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:20 PM
It's a boring position but it's the most important. why has the offense sucked the last 4 years? Sh*tty lineman? No coincedence. When the offense was good, the Oline was amazing.

*but lets not take an Olineman with the top pick?.. oh god no! that would be like a disease.

This argument wouldn't be bad if there was actually a stud left tackle for the taking and there wasn't a stud playmaker that we'd be passing up.

If there was a prospect like Jake Long, maybe. But Okung is not a guy you take when there's a superstar in the making like Berry on the board.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:22 PM
None of the OT's this year deserve to go top 10 and this year has elite prospects at the top.

If you want an OT wait till round 2.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:22 PM
And this is the point Im trying to make, they took this area lightly and it shows every single Sunday. Goff and Brown aren't good quality. And Im confident most will agree. The Chiefs deserve what they get. bad quality players in Goff and Brown and piss poor Oline play as a result.

But that was just outright refusing to address the Oline period.

Taking 2 o-linemen in the first 2 or 3 rounds is very aggressive for any team.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:23 PM
You know how you win in the NFL, you need a top 5 QB and a top 5 defense.

You win by having a good all round team. It all starts by having a good foundation w/ both Oline and Dline.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:23 PM
It feels like Groundhog Day around here.

It feels like I've been having this same argument for years and years.

suds79
10-25-2009, 09:23 PM
Our O-line coach needed fired yesterday IMO.

Yes there needs to be more talent but the common misconception out there is that the only way this team will ever get a good O-line again is if we use our 1st & 2nd round picks to fill the line.

If we have to used high picks to get good line play? We're screwed.

Both Guard positions, Center should all be able to be filled adequately with mid round to late round selections. And we already used a mid 1st on a LT.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:24 PM
None of the OT's this year deserve to go top 10 and this year has elite prospects at the top.

If you want an OT wait till round 2.

There is a lot of time between now and then. Im sure a lot of things could change and you'll see guys climbing up draft boards. It's too early right now.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:25 PM
You win by having a good all round team. It all starts by having a good foundation w/ both Oline and Dline.

I'm still waiting for you to expalin to us how the Steelers with a crap O-Line won a SB.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:26 PM
Lets look how the Chiefs lines in the 90's and Dicky's era were built

90's
LT Alt (First Round)
LG Szott (7th Round)
C Grundhard (2nd Round)
RG Shields (3rd Round)
RT Siglar/Criswell (FA) Neither were high draft picks

2003
LT Roaf (Traded 3rd) (1st)
LG Waters (FA) (UDFA)
C Weigmann (FA) (UDFA)
RG Shields (3rd)
RT Tait (1st)

You don't have to have all first round picks on the line to be successful.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:28 PM
There is a lot of time between now and then. Im sure a lot of things could change and you'll see guys climbing up draft boards. It's too early right now.

Unless there's a can't miss prospect at left tackle, you can't justify taking him over a can't miss safety like Berry. Even if there was a can't miss prospect, I would still take the safety.

Especially given that there's no reason to believe that Albert's career as a left tackle is over. Or that he doesn't have potential to become much better.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 09:28 PM
Just take a tackle period. It's obvious we need one.

And in the second round take a guard and center to compliment. They need talent there either way. It's about having talented five guys who can block. Who honestly cares about this belief "you don't take a RT in the first." It's a stupid way of spinning things. A foundation is a foundation. And you need talent in the foundation of your team. As you can see, teams are f**k all w/o it.

Stupid.

Im sure there will be OT's availale when we pick in the top 5 or 10. And they MUST take one whether he plays right or left tackle I don't care.

This team has failed miserably addressing the Oline in the draft. Im tired of it. Drafting 1 guy doesn't cut it. This is something they should of done previously. I don't care any way people spin it, I don't want them neglecting the foundation of a football team. This is something the Chiefs should of done when Roaf and Shields were nearing retirement.

FUCKING Stupid.

You don't solve a problem by throwing away valuable draft picks in hopes of someone panning out.

Remember the Vermeil years? Downing, Sims, Sands, Freeman, Siavii? You don't chase after a position. You draft according to the board.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:31 PM
You win by having a good all round team. It all starts by having a good foundation w/ both Oline and Dline.

Your foundation for a football team is simple:

You need a franchise QB
You need a Stud LT
You need a Pass Rusher

Thats your foundation.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:31 PM
So, explain to me how a team with playmakers at QB, at WR, at safety, and at the OLB positions, but with a crappy O-Line won a SB.

Meanwhile, until the last three or 4 years, the Chiefs had a top 5 O-Line for the better part of 15 years and won jack.

Explain that to me.

First off, which teams have won a superbowl with a crappy Oline? Besides Pittsburgh last year, I can't think of many. Not very many. There are teams that had solid Olines, and then there were teams with very good Olines. If you look at history, A LOT of teams, in fact a good majority had really good offensive lines.

The Chiefs didn't win a bowl because they didn't have a balanced team. They were all offense and no defense. Yeah they were solid on offense in the Vermeil era. But if you can't stop anybody, you're not gonna win. You have to have a good all round team imo.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:34 PM
Your foundation for a football team is simple:

You need a franchise QB
You need a Stud LT
You need a Pass Rusher

Thats your foundation.

That's a very good start. And 2 of those guys are on the trenches so that goes to prove something.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 09:35 PM
That's a very good start. And 2 of those guys are on the trenches so that goes to prove something.

Not in a 3-4 they're not

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:36 PM
First off, which teams have won a superbowl with a crappy Oline? Besides Pittsburgh last year, I can't think of many. Not very many. There are teams that had solid Olines, and then there were teams with very good Olines. If you look at history, A LOT of teams, in fact a good majority had really good offensive lines.

The Chiefs didn't win a bowl because they didn't have a balanced team. They were all offense and no defense. Yeah they were solid on offense in the Vermeil era. But if you can't stop anybody, you're not gonna win. You have to have a good all round team imo.

It doesn't matter if it was only one team with a crappy O-Line.

The fact is, it clearly shows that you win with playmakers.

Every SB winner had playmakers.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:42 PM
It doesn't matter if it was only one team with a crappy O-Line.

The fact is, it clearly shows that you win with playmakers.

Every SB winner had playmakers.

Oh really? It doesn't matter if it's ONLY one team? Wow.

So you're gonna change your whole argument to say it doesn't matter. Nice way of twisting things. F**k it, it does matter..I don't care what people say, history shows it and proves it.

I remember the years when the Cowboys and niners won, there Olines were FANTASTIC. Same can be said when Donkeys won, Skins, etc...I could go on.


And having good Olineman is just the same as having good playmakers. In fact I think there just as important if not more important.

suds79
10-25-2009, 09:45 PM
And having good Olineman is just the same as having good playmakers. In fact I think there just as important if not more important.

What are we even arguing about? Yes we want playmakers and we want a good O-line.

You just don't have to spend all your high picks to build that good O-line that's all.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 09:47 PM
Oh really? It doesn't matter if it's ONLY one team? Wow.

So you're gonna change your whole argument to say it doesn't matter. Nice way of twisting things. F**k it, it does matter..I don't care what people say, history shows it and proves it.

I remember the years when the Cowboys and niners won, there Olines were FANTASTIC. Same can be said when Donkeys won, Skins, etc...I could go on.


And having good Olineman is just the same as having good playmakers. In fact I think there just as important if not more important.

Okay, genius. Go ahead and point out how many first round lineman were necessary to win Super Bowls.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:51 PM
Unless there's a can't miss prospect at left tackle, you can't justify taking him over a can't miss safety like Berry. Even if there was a can't miss prospect, I would still take the safety.

Especially given that there's no reason to believe that Albert's career as a left tackle is over. Or that he doesn't have potential to become much better.

Whats a safety gonna do? Realistically. I'd like to know why people covet Mays and Berry so much? I do think Brown and McGraw are not good. Im with the majority on that one. And even they draft Mays, there gonna be a bad team.

But what are they gonna do? improve the coverage? fine. What good is a secondary without a passrush which the Chiefs don't have. They have to look at whats really important. Your QB is your leader and he can't do it all by himself. He has all this money tied up into him, might as well give him a chance to succeed. Many people and even critics argue that if you're gonna build your football team you do it with the quarterback and with the Oline. You have a good Oline, your running game and passing game will improve, that's half the battle won. That's more important then a safety right now imo.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:51 PM
The value of the draft says you don't need to even use 1 first round pick to assemble a good offensive line.

Look at how the best teams in the league were built, they weren't dropping 2 top 15 picks on offensive linemen.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:51 PM
Oh really? It doesn't matter if it's ONLY one team? Wow.

So you're gonna change your whole argument to say it doesn't matter. Nice way of twisting things. F**k it, it does matter..I don't care what people say, history shows it and proves it.

I remember the years when the Cowboys and niners won, there Olines were FANTASTIC. Same can be said when Donkeys won, Skins, etc...I could go on.


And having good Olineman is just the same as having good playmakers. In fact I think there just as important if not more important.

The point, dumbass, is that you need playmakers, period.

You get playmakers early.

You can build a great O-Line with 3rd round picks and later.

But you can clearly win a SB without a great O-Line.

But so far there is not one single piece of evidence to show that you win SBs without playmakers.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:52 PM
Whats a safety gonna do? Realistically. I'd like to know why people covet Mays and Berry so much? I do think Brown and McGraw are not good. Im with the majority on that one. And even they draft Mays, there gonna be a bad team.

But what are they gonna do? improve the coverage? fine. What good is a secondary without a passrush which the Chiefs don't have. They have to look at whats really important. Your QB is your leader and he can't do it all by himself. He has all this money tied up into him, might as well give him a chance to succeed. Many people and even critics argue that if you're gonna build your football team you do it with the quarterback and with the Oline. You have a good Oline, your running game and passing game will improve, that's half the battle won. That's more important then a safety right now imo.

Why do you act like the team only has 1 draft pick?

You take the elite player with your first pick regardless, you do not draft needs or reach for position in the top 10 it's stupid as hell.

You build your offensive line in rounds 2+ look at all the good teams in the league that have no 1st round picks on their lines.

milkman
10-25-2009, 09:53 PM
Whats a safety gonna do? Realistically. I'd like to know why people covet Mays and Berry so much? I do think Brown and McGraw are not good. Im with the majority on that one. And even they draft Mays, there gonna be a bad team.

But what are they gonna do? improve the coverage? fine. What good is a secondary without a passrush which the Chiefs don't have. They have to look at whats really important. Your QB is your leader and he can't do it all by himself. He has all this money tied up into him, might as well give him a chance to succeed. Many people and even critics argue that if you're gonna build your football team you do it with the quarterback and with the Oline. You have a good Oline, your running game and passing game will improve, that's half the battle won. That's more important then a safety right now imo.

The Pittsburg Steelers and Troy Polamalu would bege to differ.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 09:54 PM
The Pittsburg Steelers and Troy Polamalu would bege to differ.

As would Ed Reed and the Ravens.

chiefzilla1501
10-25-2009, 09:55 PM
Whats a safety gonna do? Realistically. I'd like to know why people covet Mays and Berry so much? I do think Brown and McGraw are not good. Im with the majority on that one. And even they draft Mays, there gonna be a bad team.

But what are they gonna do? improve the coverage? fine. What good is a secondary without a passrush which the Chiefs don't have. They have to look at whats really important. Your QB is your leader and he can't do it all by himself. He has all this money tied up into him, might as well give him a chance to succeed. Many people and even critics argue that if you're gonna build your football team you do it with the quarterback and with the Oline. You have a good Oline, your running game and passing game will improve, that's half the battle won. That's more important then a safety right now imo.

You need to watch a Ravens and Steelers game.

Reed and Polamalu are the most important players for two outstanding defenses. If not THE most, then second most.

These guys fly all over the place. They sniff out every single screen pass. They are extremely active in blitzing the QB. When you do a jailbreak blitz, you can leave Polamalu on an island and he'll lock down coverage. These guys are not only fast to make plays, but the best ones are 3 steps ahead of a play because of their ability to read the QB. One QB once spoke of Ed Reed as being a nightmare because he knew exactly what the QB was thinking before the ball was snapped.

Those guys come once in a lifetime. Berry is one of those once in a lifetime guys.

A stud safety has a lot of room to be a huge difference maker in a 3-4.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Okay, genius. Go ahead and point out how many first round lineman were necessary to win Super Bowls.

Offensive lineman don't get talked about. Which sometimes is a good thing. A lot of times you here either the QB, RB, or WR. The guys people see make plays getting talked about. that's where the attention is most of the time.

*But I sure as will say, Offensive line has contributed greatly in a lot of teams in past history winning bowls. You're not gonna hear linemans name. When the Cowboys won a lot of the attention was towards Emmitt Smith, Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin. You never really hear about Erik Williams, but I sure will say he as damn important and a big reason why those guys succeeded.

Skip Towne
10-25-2009, 09:56 PM
The Pittsburg Steelers and Troy Polamalu would bege to differ.

Polamalu is the poster boy for taking a safety early.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Adrian Wilson of the Cards.

Discuss Thrower
10-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Your foundation for a football team is simple:

You need a franchise QB
You need a Stud LT
You need a Pass Rusher

Thats your foundation.

... soooo what you're saying is the Chiefs are 0/3 when it comes to building a good foundation. Yikes.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 09:56 PM
You don't always get to build your team in a preferred order, the Texans at 1 point had an awful Oline should they have not drafted Andre Johnson because of it?

Here's the thing that everyone needs to understand, you will not get an elite player at WR, QB, DB, picking late in the first round but you know what. If your team is pretty good but you need a lineman you can get a damn good offensive lineman picking in the 20's of the 1st round, that's the difference.

Taking offensive lineman in the top 10 unless they are truly special prospects is overkill, it's not needed.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 09:58 PM
... soooo what you're saying is the Chiefs are 0/3 when it comes to building a good foundation. Yikes.

We have the left tackle already, the other two are up for debate.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 10:00 PM
People really need to get with the program on positional value, what positions can be drafted where and when exceptions should be made for rare prospects.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 10:04 PM
You need to watch a Ravens and Steelers game.

Reed and Polamalu are the most important players for two outstanding defenses. If not THE most, then second most.

These guys fly all over the place. They sniff out every single screen pass. They are extremely active in blitzing the QB. When you do a jailbreak blitz, you can leave Polamalu on an island and he'll lock down coverage. These guys are not only fast to make plays, but the best ones are 3 steps ahead of a play because of their ability to read the QB. One QB once spoke of Ed Reed as being a nightmare because he knew exactly what the QB was thinking before the ball was snapped.

Those guys come once in a lifetime. Berry is one of those once in a lifetime guys.

A stud safety has a lot of room to be a huge difference maker in a 3-4.

For sure. I've watched a lot of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu Im not gonna disagree with you. It all depends on preference imo. some teams may go for that safety, I just feel in the Chiefs case, this team is far and light years away from having a good team. I even believe if they had a polamalu, it might make a difference of 2 or 3 wins a year, but they'd still suck on offense AND possibly defense. They just have no foundation period. A safety is good to have, but if you weigh the Chiefs Circumstance, situation the foundation really, they have none. Zero blocking and zero passrush...they could have all the playmakers in the world, but if you can't block, or have a passrush, nor tackle, your football team is gonna suck. It's that simple.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 10:05 PM
Why are you worried about winning 1 more game next year?

You want the best players so they can win a title in 4 years....I don't care if they don't win 1 more game next year if they start putting the proper players in place.

You won't have a chance at safeties like this again.

milkman
10-25-2009, 10:06 PM
For sure. I've watched a lot of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu Im not gonna disagree with you. It all depends on preference imo. some teams may go for that safety, I just feel in the Chiefs case, this team is far and light years away from having a good team. I even believe if they had a polamalu, it might make a difference of 2 or 3 wins a year, but they'd still suck on offense AND possibly defense. They just have no foundation period. A safety is good to have, but if you weigh the Chiefs Circumstance, situation the foundation really, they have none. Zero blocking and zero passrush...they could have all the playmakers in the world, but if you can't block, or have a passrush, nor tackle, your football team is gonna suck. It's that simple.

So, let's just draft a marginal OT who may or may not be any better than Ryan OCallaghan and build that O-Line, while ignoring the elite talent tah will jsut be sitting there for the taking.

Skip Towne
10-25-2009, 10:06 PM
People really need to get with the program on positional value, what positions can be drafted where and when exceptions should be made for rare prospects.

Where can we find that info?

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 10:08 PM
If the board plays out how I think it might, I would go defense with our first four picks. This draft is freaking stacked with defense. We could build an elite unit pretty quick if Pioli, Haley, and Pendergrast can pull their head out of their ass.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 10:08 PM
Where can we find that info?

You could tattoo it on people's foreheads and they still wouldn't know it.

There isn't a QB or an OT with a top 10 pick this year, everyone needs to accept it and talk about the guys we really should be drafting.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 10:09 PM
Folks, Im not saying safeties aren't important. Heck it'd be awesome to have a good safety.

But, my point is, the team itself is weak in major areas. The Oline sucks, and they have no passrush. If you can't block, or apply pressure, your team is really gonna suffer regardless if you have playmakers at other positions.

milkman
10-25-2009, 10:11 PM
Folks, Im not saying safeties aren't important. Heck it'd be awesome to have a good safety.

But, my point is, the team itself is weak in major areas. The Oline sucks, and they have no passrush. If you can't block, or apply pressure, your team is really gonna suffer regardless if you have playmakers at other positions.

And if you pass on elite talent because you think we have to fix the O-Line with first round picks, you simply build yourself a team that can't win the playoffs.

This stupid, just take the best O-Lineman with the first pick argument is just that, stupid.

It's moronic beyond comprehension.

Mecca
10-25-2009, 10:13 PM
Basically what Red is saying, if he was drafting for the Lions or Texans he wouldn't have drafted Calvin Johnson or Andre Johnson, ponder that.

chiefs1111
10-25-2009, 10:18 PM
Basically what Red is saying, if he was drafting for the Lions or Texans he wouldn't have drafted Calvin Johnson or Andre Johnson, ponder that.

Or take Joe Staley over Bowe

HotRoute
10-25-2009, 10:20 PM
drafting guru's . . . . please leave that talk for feb, march and april only. i swear everybody wants to worry about our next draft but the truth is its the most boring part of football.

does it really matter who we pick first or last? as long as they can contribute on the field. the draft should be the last thing to worry about in the middle of a season.

and ya i hope we draft all o-linemen and d-linemen until we can control the trenches we will be as pathetic as we have been the last couple of years

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 10:20 PM
Offensive lineman don't get talked about. Which sometimes is a good thing. A lot of times you here either the QB, RB, or WR. The guys people see make plays getting talked about. that's where the attention is most of the time.

*But I sure as will say, Offensive line has contributed greatly in a lot of teams in past history winning bowls. You're not gonna hear linemans name. When the Cowboys won a lot of the attention was towards Emmitt Smith, Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin. You never really hear about Erik Williams, but I sure will say he as damn important and a big reason why those guys succeeded.

I said, point out to me how many first round offensive lineman are on Super Bowl teams.

Not a bunch of fucking bullshit.

Discuss Thrower
10-25-2009, 10:20 PM
We have the left tackle already, the other two are up for debate.

I know I'm not the most authoritative when it comes to these things, but was there really a difference between the play of B-Rich at LT and Brandon Albert? Wade Smith seemed to do OK up till today, then Nicecock got taken out and he had to slide over to C.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 10:21 PM
Or take Joe Staley over Bowe

Where is Lil Stupidy at?

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 10:26 PM
drafting guru's . . . . please leave that talk for feb, march and april only. i swear everybody wants to worry about our next draft but the truth is its the most boring part of football.


Not if you follow college football alot, besides its how championship teams are built.

DeezNutz
10-25-2009, 10:28 PM
drafting guru's . . . . please leave that talk for feb, march and april only. i swear everybody wants to worry about our next draft but the truth is its the most boring part of football.

does it really matter who we pick first or last? as long as they can contribute on the field. the draft should be the last thing to worry about in the middle of a season.

and ya i hope we draft all o-linemen and d-linemen until we can control the trenches we will be as pathetic as we have been the last couple of years

Sadly, as a Chiefs fan, the draft is one of the most interesting things all season.

ChiefsCountry
10-25-2009, 10:36 PM
I know I'm not the most authoritative when it comes to these things, but was there really a difference between the play of B-Rich at LT and Brandon Albert? Wade Smith seemed to do OK up till today, then Nicecock got taken out and he had to slide over to C.

Albert's problem is he lost too much weight and he isn't using his body correctly. Have millkman explain it, he can do it alot better than I can.

KCChiefsFan88
10-25-2009, 10:51 PM
Even Clark mentioned the importance of protecting Cassel so maybe this will finally be the offseason the Chiefs aggressively address the offensive line.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 11:12 PM
I said, point out to me how many first round offensive lineman are on Super Bowl teams.

Not a bunch of ****ing bullshit.

LOTS of 1st rounders.

Faneca, Hartings, Simmons, Mankins, Glenn, Ogden, Pace, Zimmerman, Mark May, Harris Barton, Verba, A. Taylor, K. Walker, William Roberts, Jim Lachey.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 11:14 PM
LOTS of 1st rounders.

Faneca, Hartings, Simmons, Mankins, Glenn, Ogden, Pace, Zimmerman, Mark May, Harris Barton, Verba, A. Taylor, K. Walker, William Roberts, Jim Lachey.

Per team, Dummy.

JFC.

Are you mildly retarded or fully retarded?

RedThat
10-25-2009, 11:18 PM
Per team, Dummy.

JFC.

Are you mildly retarded or fully retarded?

Then be more specific in your posts.

i never saw the word "per" there...so I named a few stop twisting things f**ker

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 11:27 PM
Then be more specific in your posts.

i never saw the word "per" there...so I named a few stop twisting things f**ker

Hey Douchefuck, you're the one touting the offensive lineman and how the Chiefs should spend their first three picks on offensive lineman, regardless of available elite talent.

There is absolutely NO reason to take anything other than a Left Tackle with a Top 5 pick and even then, it's questionable.

The Chiefs should be able to adequately address their offensive line in rounds two through five and this year, the late second round pick should suffice. Unless there is a game-changing OLB available which isn't out of the question in this year's draft.

tk13
10-25-2009, 11:34 PM
I think these are some of the most pointless arguments because it's not like you need just one thing. You do need a top notch safety. Having first day talent along the offensive line is a good thing. We also need MLB's, a pass rushing LB, a true NT. Good 3-4's usually have a pretty destructive NT, and there aren't many of those.

There's not one singular way to do this thing. The Jets put Mark Sanchez behind a line of first round picks. The Vikings have McKinnie and Hutchinson protecting Favre's blindside. The Broncos have a 1st round LT that everyone thought was overrated. And the Saints have an offensive line full of nobodies. Guys like Ed Reed and Polamalu have won Super Bowls, and the Patriots won them with a secondary so depleted they had street FA's and Troy Brown playing DB.

RedThat
10-25-2009, 11:40 PM
Hey Douche****, you're the one touting the offensive lineman and how the Chiefs should spend their first three picks on offensive lineman, regardless of available elite talent.

There is absolutely NO reason to take anything other than a Left Tackle with a Top 5 pick and even then, it's questionable.

The Chiefs should be able to adequately address their offensive line in rounds two through five and this year, the late second round pick should suffice. Unless there is a game-changing OLB available which isn't out of the question in this year's draft.

Who's the ****n douchebag who's asking me to name 1st round offensive lineman on SB teams? And then has the nerve to twist things around after facts are stated?

DID YOUR MOM THROW YOU DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD? You musta seriously banged your head really hard.

You are one mentally deranged individual. It amazes me how you are the common one on here who likes to pick fights and argues and disagrees no matter what the topic of conversation is. If other people's opinions are different then yours then there ****n stupid or douchebag, whatever! If it's not seen from Dane's point of view then you're opinion is not valid and as a result you're stupid. Because DANE SAYS SO!! That spells ignorance...Im out! No need wasting time in arguing with a person who is the calibre of stupidity.

DaneMcCloud
10-25-2009, 11:48 PM
Who's the ****n douchebag who's asking me to name 1st round offensive lineman on SB teams? And then has the nerve to twist things around after facts are stated?

DID YOUR MOM THROW YOU DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD? You musta seriously banged your head really hard.



Hey Dumbfuck, you're the one that advocating passing on elite talent when EVERYONE is telling you that moves like that are fucking stupid.

I asked you to name how many offensive lineman comprise Super Bowl winning teams: How many first rounders were on the Colts? Patriots? Giants? And so on.

A great offensive line DOES NOT need to be comprised of 5 fucking first rounders, nor does it need to be be comprised of first and second rounders exclusively.

And as for stupid, you're the dumb motherfucker advocating a RIGHT TACKLE over elite talent like Berry or Mays.

Have fun fisting yourself to sleep, moron.

Saccopoo
10-26-2009, 01:52 AM
Okung isn't better than those guys. He's an okay LT. But even if he was a good one, he's not going to make the kind of playmaking impact that Berry will. Trust me. I was one of the loudest opponents of Curry last year. But Berry plays a position that actually has very high positional value.

... He plays safety. Jesus fuck christ. Look, I like Berry a ton. But safety ain't a position of "very high positional value," ever. The reason being is that they are the last line of defense. If your DL can't get the QB, if you LB corps can't get the QB, can't cover, if your CB's aren't doing their jobs and locking down the receivers, then the safeties cover over, secure the mid-field, play the zone, etc. They are the most secondary players on the field. Don't give me this horse shit, they play a "high positional value" crap. They don't. If a team has the luxury of actually being able to pick a really good safety in the lower half of the first round, that means that the team is solid at all the primary, important positions and can piss away a draft pick on a piss hole position like a safety.

A team like the Chiefs don't have the luxury of pissing away a first rounder on a happy-go-lucky position like a safety. Don't be a fucking retard and think that they can. In three or four years, when/if they build the teams core, then you can think this. Not now.

I'm not saying the Chiefs ignore the offensive line. But in the 2nd and 3rd round, you can get one of the top 5 Centers or Guards on the board. And that in itself will be an enormous upgrade to our existing offensive line. Taking Okung with the #1 pick is a panic move. It's a move that is purely based on filling a need rather than BPA.

It upgrades two positions on the line immediately. It moves Albert back to LG, where he could dominate for a decade. And with one of the Chiefs second round picks, you can get the best RT or C in the draft. With the other you get the best remaining (or even the best) pass rusher in the entire draft. Gee, that seems like a fucking bad situation...getting the best LT prospect, along with the top RT/C prospect in the draft and a top flight rush end. That would suck dog nuts.

And by the way, I think it's way too soon to give up on Albert.

I'm not giving up on Albert in the slightest. The guy was absolutely dominant in college as a LEFT GUARD. He could be one of the best at that position in the pros for the next ten years. Or he could flounder at LT...end up doubting himself, and be another first round draft pick bust...

Real interesting to hear Haley talk about how Albert is being completely re-trained on technique and being forced to play completely different after his weight loss. He still has a lot of upside.

LT's get in there and play. That he has to learn the position at the NFL level is fucking stupid. We have a potential Pro Bowl level guy that is inclined to play the LG spot, but, no...fuck me...don't think about drafting the best LT guy because our OL play is stellar and doesn't need an upgrade at every fucking position and we could make Albert a top flight LG immediately is retarded.

Square peg in a round hole.

Mecca
10-26-2009, 02:04 AM
Yea cause Eric Berry will be in the draft in 4 years.

Lets just draft some big fat ass guy who really should go 20 just because.

Saccopoo
10-26-2009, 02:06 AM
As would Ed Reed and the Ravens.

And both Reed and Polamalu were second half picks after both those teams built their foundations.

Picking a safety is a luxury pick done by teams on the cusp. If you pick one with your first rounder, it is because you feel confident that all the primary positions have been addressed and have been accounted for.

The reason why Polamalu and Reed get so many opportunities is that every thing else in front of them and to the side of them is solid and they can freelance and "make plays."

Why was Mike Brown so good on the Bears and now instantly sucks?

Go ahead and pick Berry or Mays without addressing the primary middle positions such as the OL, the DL, the LB's...

You end up with Deron Cherry.

Saccopoo
10-26-2009, 02:07 AM
People really need to get with the program on positional value, what positions can be drafted where and when exceptions should be made for rare prospects.

No shit...

Saccopoo
10-26-2009, 02:10 AM
Basically what Red is saying, if he was drafting for the Lions or Texans he wouldn't have drafted Calvin Johnson or Andre Johnson, ponder that.

And how many playoff games has Cal or Andre won?

Ponder that.

Saccopoo
10-26-2009, 02:23 AM
Yea cause Eric Berry will be in the draft in 4 years.

Lets just draft some big fat ass guy who really should go 20 just because.

There is an Eric Berry in almost every draft. A player that transcends the position, at least in terms of college and potential.

That doesn't mean jack squat at the next level.

Berry or Mays could be the end all, be all. But it ain't guaranteed. No position or player is.

Eric Berry is Jermaine Gresham. You can't tell me that one is better than the other in terms of their position and relevance and potential.

Shit. Gresham is 6'6", 260 lb., looks like he could carry another 20 comfortably, and is, without question, the best TE prospect since Tony and maybe better. He's faster, taller, bigger, etc.

But fuck...he's a TE!!!! Oh NOES!@@@!!111!

Where you guys got on the safety shit is beyond me.

BossChief
10-26-2009, 04:30 AM
What happens when Mays turns into a rich mans Pollard and Berry under produces like Huff did because of lacking talent on the rest of the defense?

Great 3-4 defenses are built around elite nose guards and pass rushers.

YayMike
10-26-2009, 06:28 AM
Thing is... when you are 1-5, and won 3 out of your past 30 some games, you have nothing to lose going for it on 4th and 1. Our defense clearly could not stop them on the previous 2 drives, and it was a chance to keep their O on the sidelines for a little while longer. When both your offense and defense both suck, sometimes you have to make a tough decision..

The problem, said ad nausiuem, is our o-line f***in blows. Cassel had his worst game by far, missing open receivers for what should have been easy scores. Those are passes that i think Brodie makes. Anyway, lets hope he gets better with the rest of the team. I mean what could we honestly expect with out Albert and then our starting center. Goff blows, and Waters apparently forgot how to block.

The thing that pisses me off the most, why the hell was Page deactivated?! Anytime you have Tim McGraw and (white) James Brown as your starting safeties you aren't going to win any games, especially against a good passing team like SD.

I am proud of how our Run D played. Jackson and Dorsey and even Edwards played a hell of a game (once again against the run). Even the LBs were making plays on the run..... We still have 0 pass rush as teams are doubling Hali on every SINGLE play...

sparkky
10-26-2009, 06:55 AM
I think most of us would agree football teams start and stop with the big uglies on both sides of the ball.

and ours are ugly for sure. it is a problem that should have been addressed in the draft and offseason.

soundmind
10-26-2009, 08:10 AM
And both Reed and Polamalu were second half picks after both those teams built their foundations.

Picking a safety is a luxury pick done by teams on the cusp. If you pick one with your first rounder, it is because you feel confident that all the primary positions have been addressed and have been accounted for.

The reason why Polamalu and Reed get so many opportunities is that every thing else in front of them and to the side of them is solid and they can freelance and "make plays."

Why was Mike Brown so good on the Bears and now instantly sucks?

Go ahead and pick Berry or Mays without addressing the primary middle positions such as the OL, the DL, the LB's...

You end up with Deron Cherry.

What happens when Mays turns into a rich mans Pollard and Berry under produces like Huff did because of lacking talent on the rest of the defense?

Great 3-4 defenses are built around elite nose guards and pass rushers.

With no intentions of dead horse beating...you're both spot on.

Traditionally (and by design) the 3-4 is a an attacking defense. Not to say the 4-3 isn't, but it's realistically more of a controlling front than the 3-4 look. The 3-4 is a whole lot more risk, reward, sucker punch, overpower, and knock-out. In order to do that, we have to have CBs who are comfortable in press coverage and zone, and most importantly LBs that can fly through traffic and hit like a truck. To keep the horse ahead of the cart, we need a strong-like-bull NT to help clear a path and wear people the f*ck out. You can get away with lesser Safeties if they're being spoonfed horrible passes because of pressure. Add a safety to that kind of pressure and you win Superbowls....plural. We need to be shopping offensive line, the nose and linebackers, the rest of it can wait.

I don't think many on this board are new to football, but it's real simple. We need a Nose and Linebackers (in the player department), and we need them light-years before we need a Safety. I heart Taylor Mays. Admittedly. However, Ed Reed isn't necessarily Canton-bound without Suggs, Scott, Lewis, Ngata and the other dozen pro bowlers that have played in front of him. We're also talking about Dick Lebeau and Rex Ryan.....versus....who do we have teaching/coaching this D???

I find it interesting that many of the same folks saying that positional value meant the world last year (which = draft a QB or die of retardation) are the one's pitching a SAFETY in the top 5. That's $11-14M per....for your Safety. What are Ed and Troy making? Don't get me wrong, if they have Dawkins-like impact, it might be worth it. I'm not arguing completely against it, I understand the vote for playmaker, but to spend that on a rookie safety....I don't think I could. We are foundationally problematic, and if it's not shored in FA, I personally would have to address the OL/NT/LB in the draft. We need to come out of this draft with no less than 3 starters, and IMO they should probably be those positions.

Chiefnj2
10-26-2009, 08:15 AM
With no intentions of dead horse beating...you're both spot on.

Traditionally (and by design) the 3-4 is a an attacking defense. Not to say the 4-3 isn't, but it's realistically more of a controlling front than the 3-4 look. The 3-4 is a whole lot more risk, reward, sucker punch, overpower, and knock-out. In order to do that, we have to have CBs who are comfortable in press coverage and zone, and most importantly LBs that can fly through traffic and hit like a truck. To keep the horse ahead of the cart, we need a strong-like-bull NT to help clear a path and wear people the f*ck out. You can get away with lesser Safeties if they're being spoonfed horrible passes because of pressure. Add a safety to that kind of pressure and you win Superbowls....plural. We need to be shopping offensive line, the nose and linebackers, the rest of it can wait.

I don't think many on this board are new to football, but it's real simple. We need a Nose and Linebackers (in the player department), and we need them light-years before we need a Safety. I heart Taylor Mays. Admittedly. However, Ed Reed isn't necessarily Canton-bound without Suggs, Scott, Lewis, Ngata and the other dozen pro bowlers that have played in front of him. We're also talking about Dick Lebeau and Rex Ryan.....versus....who do we have teaching/coaching this D???

I find it interesting that many of the same folks saying that positional value meant the world last year (which = draft a QB or die of retardation) are the one's pitching a SAFETY in the top 5. That's $11-14M per....for your Safety. What are Ed and Troy making? Don't get me wrong, if they have Dawkins-like impact, it might be worth it. I'm not arguing completely against it, I understand the vote for playmaker, but to spend that on a rookie safety....I don't think I could. We are foundationally problematic, and if it's not shored in FA, I personally would have to address the OL/NT/LB in the draft. We need to come out of this draft with no less than 3 starters, and IMO they should probably be those positions.

I agree with just about everything you've said.

Lets assume KC has a top 5 pick. How many of those good defensive teams that you refer to took a NT with a top 5 pick? Looking ahead at this years draft do you see a LT or LB that you feel is worthy of a top 5 pick?

soundmind
10-26-2009, 08:31 AM
I agree with just about everything you've said.

Lets assume KC has a top 5 pick. How many of those good defensive teams that you refer to took a NT with a top 5 pick? Looking ahead at this years draft do you see a LT or LB that you feel is worthy of a top 5 pick?

I think the top 5 pick is a very safe assumption.

I don't know that either of the Steelers or Ravens defenses of recent years have taken a NT with a top 5 pick, but they also haven't had to. It's a dubious position to be in....

That been said, and considering the payday that comes with it, I'm not really swaying between LT, NT or freak LB, as much as I'm waiting them out. I know people are pretty high on Okung and I was too, but I see him as more of a road-grader type now. Really really good, but I wonder if he's got a complete enough game - price tag fits though, and we need OL. I certainly wouldn't be against someone like Ndamukong Suh (NEB)....and maybe we can sneak away with a crazy LB w/ the early 2nd...but if I have anything, it's a defensive bias. We have a lot of holes, so I'm open minded.

The truth is we're five-holed. We are in a position that dictates our paying a grotesque amount of money to an unproven player. Not that cap room is the problem obviously, but it's nearly untradeable because of the price tag. So, we're on a huge risk/reward position and need to hit it out of the park to have a chance.