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DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:22 AM
MMQB Mail: Common denominator among five bad NFL teams (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/10/27/mail/index.html)

Seems to me we have nine bad teams in football right now. For all of you in Buffalo, Chicago and Seattle who want me to include your team in this grouping, sorry. You've show too many signs of life to make the Bottom Nine.

The worst teams fall into three categories. Separating the badness:

The Blow It Up And Start Over Division: Tampa Bay (0-7), St. Louis (0-7), Cleveland (1-6), Kansas City (1-6), Detroit (1-5).

It All Starts With The Quarterback Division: Oakland (2-5), Washington (2-5), Carolina (2-4).

They Never Should Have Drafted Vince Young Division: Tennessee (0-6).

The last four teams have quarterback problems that will keep them down until solved. JaMarcus Russell is a disaster; we don't need to see any more of him to know his pocket presence and awareness are horrible and his accuracy just as bad. Jason Campbell far too often looks for the easy checkdown than for the open throw downfield, and watching the first half of the Monday nighter, I'm convinced his pocket awareness, too, is severely flawed. In Carolina, John Fox has to be wondering if Jake Delhomme is Steve Sax. I know I am. In Tennessee, Jeff Fisher has to see if Vince Young has a chance; there is no sense playing Kerry Collins now. But I have little faith that Young will work there, and the Titans must not either, based on Fisher's unwillingness to play him significant minutes.

But the five teams in the Blow It Up Division have three things in common. If I'm the owner of any of them, I think it's foolish to think anything but stay the course and let's evaluate everything after the season. The only place among the five that I think has even a small chance of getting blown up in-season is Cleveland. But that shouldn't be judged until January.

The common denominators among the Bucs, Rams, Browns, Chiefs and Lions:

1. (Mostly) New front offices trying to change the culture. All but St. Louis have new general managers, and with the Rams, new coach Steve Spagnuolo and COO Kevin Demoff have joined willing agent-of-change GM Bill Devaney in changing everything about the organization. The Bucs had the fifth-oldest team in football last year; now they're the third-youngest. Eric Mangini and George Kokinis would change everything about the Browns (I think including the nickname) if they could; that's how far gone they think they found this organization. Scott Pioli was given a free hand to reconstruct the Chiefs in his vision from the ground, and he's in the 10th month of probably a three-year building job doing that. In Detroit, Martin Mayhew (even though he's a Matt Millen leftover) has already shown his smarts by getting first-, third- and fifth-round picks for perennial underachiever Roy Willams, and he's found a willing partner for change in new-thinking Jim Schwartz. I think Mayhew deserves to be judged on his own.

2. Coaches trying to establish newness takes a while. Ask the Chiefs about the four-and-a-half-hour practice days (two sessions) in training camp of Todd Haley compared to the much-softer hand of Herman Edwards. Haley will now be tested by this Larry Johnson Twitter criticism. At Tampa, Raheem Morris probably got his job a year too soon, but the Bucs were worried about losing him to another team in 2010. In Detroit, Schwartz changed the weight room to almost all free weights to build strength for a team he thought got pushed around too much. Romeo Crennel was the benevolent uncle in Cleveland, Mangini the marine uncle. (Not saying he's better, just saying he's totally different.) Steve Spagnuolo got to know everyone in the building in St. Louis and promoted team to the point where he took down all individual current photos of players in the building.

3. The quarterbacks are all struggling and/or hurt. This week, 35 quarterbacks qualify for the NFL's quarterback stats, having played enough to justify inclusion. The five quarterbacks of these teams -- Matt Cassel, Marc Bulger, Matthew Stafford (though out currently with a knee injury), Josh Johnson and Derek Anderson -- are 25th, 27th, 29th, 33rd and 35th in passer rating, and also all in the bottom third in average per pass attempt, the more significant passing category.

Cassel and Stafford are their teams' quarterbacks of the future and are going through growing pains. Anderson and Bulger are almost certain to be replaced long-term with draftees or free-agents in 2010. Johnson is an interesting prospect, but Josh Freeman has the best shot to be the Bucs' long-term quarterback. When young quarterbacks struggle, rebuilding teams are almost always awful. It's a fact of NFL life.

Which team will turn it around in 2010? My guess is Detroit and Kansas City have the best chances because they have what appear to be strong GMs, strong coaches and quarterbacks who look like they have a chance. I don't expect Mangini to make it long-term, and I'm dubious about Morris because Tampa's going to lose for awhile longer -- maybe quite awhile. Spagnuolo should have a shot, unless whoever buys the Rams wants a big star as coach. Schwartz and Haley will have two or three years to prove themselves.

We're all just guessing on these teams, but the ones that turn around are usually the ones with strong coaches, consistent front offices and competent quarterbacks.

***

I like Shaun Hill as a leader and a player, but I'd have done the same thing Mike Singletary did Monday -- name Alex Smith the quarterback of his team for the foreseeable future. Simple reason: He gave the team a spark it hadn't shown in six quarters, and with the NFC West being taken over in the past couple of weeks by Arizona, time is running out to establish a toehold in the division.

The other reason: Smith hung around the 49ers' facility during the bye week and threw to Michael Crabtree. When they got together in the second half of Sunday's loss at Houston, they looked like they were very much on the same page. Crabtree, who played a surprisingly high 48 snaps in the game, will be force-fed the offense because Singletary thinks he's ready to be force-fed. He might be a bigger factor in this offense down the stretch than any of us predicted.

***

Mail time...

• NINER NATION WANTS MORE CRABTREE. From Armine Khansari of Houston: "Michael Crabtree: five catches for 56 yards, and a 20-plus-yarder brought back due to a penalty. He was on the field for almost every offensive snap and looks to be in great shape. I say he's legit Peter. What were your impressions?''

He's a little faster than I thought -- or at least played faster at Houston. And he'll be on the rug at Indy on Sunday, so that should help too. The couple of isolated replays I saw showed a receiver comfortable with the cuts and playing confidently; he wasn't intimidated by anything the Texans threw at him from what I saw. A good start.

• OVERSEAS FOOTBALL. From Jeff of Atlanta: "Good point on fans in Tampa never seeing Tom Brady, etc., because of the game overseas, but don't you HAVE to make that overseas game a cross-conference game? Otherwise, a conference game -- or even worse, a division game -- that might decide a playoff spot is lost, and the team that gave up that home date is REALLY penalized.''

I'm sure that's what teams will argue. But if I'm a fan, I tell my owner, "How can you rob me of my one chance to see Tom Brady EVER? I pay good money for these tickets. Take away the Jake Delhomme game, please. But not the Brady game.''

• THE REDSKINS SHOULD HAVE TOO. From Greg of Los Angeles: "Given their O-line problems this season, should the Packers have traded up or down to take one of the tackles in this year's draft? Michael Oher was available for a long time on draft day.''

Lots of teams are looking at Oher playing the left side for Baltimore and keeping Joe Flacco clear. Good point. I can't argue with you. I think Oher will be a vastly over-producing player compared to some of the men who went before him in the 2009 draft.

• POINT TAKEN. From Tom of Annapolis, Md.: "Once again Peter, I enjoyed your column, but I take issue with you and some others about Adrian Peterson's hit on William Gay. Gay got there on a bad angle and never had a chance to break down. Yes, he got wacked, but "ruined"? No. Peterson left the game after that, and his backup gave the game away. Gay never missed a play.''

Interesting point. But Chester Taylor is in the game a lot anyway, and you don't know if Peterson would have stayed in the game after that play or gone, depending on the play called and the formation used. I admire Gay for hanging in there, but that's a play that will haunt him for a while.

• PITTSBURGH. From Chris Palmer of St. Thomas, Ontario: "After Pittsburgh and Cincinnati beat two teams from the NFC North this weekend, who do you think stands a better chance to win the AFC North? Do you think the other team will be the wild card, or does Baltimore still have a shot?''

I like the Steelers. I think they're better on defense. If the Steelers can run it even a little bit, they should beat Cincinnati in the rematch and win the division. I like the Bengals to be a wild card, and I wouldn't count out Baltimore yet. I think they've played better than their three-game losing streak indicates.

• SHOUTOUT TO ASHWAUBENON HIGH. From Chad of Green Bay: "I happen to coach at Ashwaubenon High and take exception to your taking a shot at our receiving corps. Sure Al Harris and Charles Woodson could hold down our receivers for a while, but comparing us to the Browns? Ouch!''

They play some fine football in the Green Bay area. I've been to two Friday night games there over the years.

• COMES WITH THE TURF. From Ashley of Cincinnati: "Man, those crossword comments were harsh. It's like they think you won the Nobel Peace Prize prematurely.''

I know the Sunday crossword people, and believe me, they're not big Monday Morning QB fans.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/10/27/mail/index.html#ixzz0VFDDXrLJ

Mr. Laz
10-28-2009, 09:24 AM
They Never Should Have Drafted Vince Young Division: Tennessee (0-6).

ROFL

Demonpenz
10-28-2009, 09:27 AM
i am guessing the steve sax reference is because sax had to move to first base because he couldn't throw accurately anymore? Damn that is a shitty reference if I demonpenz lord of the dumb knowledge in sports has to figure that one out.

CHIEFS58
10-28-2009, 09:34 AM
Peter King is a moron. No one should ever post his work. Hes too busy bitching about coffee, melted Kit-Kats, Westin Hotels, and the terrors of travel (which is all expensed) to even know whats going on outside of Brett Favres panties.

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 09:41 AM
Which team will turn it around in 2010? My guess is Detroit and Kansas City have the best chances because they have what appear to be strong GMs, strong coaches and quarterbacks who look like they have a chance.

Here comes Mecca, Dane, OTWP and Deez Nutz to tell us this is all BS and the organization is a total bust at this point. Blah,blah,blah.

Any negative opinion article is quoted as fact and anything resembling a positive is regarded as BS.

The exact things being bitched about around here as the biggest mistakes are the 3 reasons PK thinks we have a chance to turn it around next year. Interesting.

ChiefMojo
10-28-2009, 09:41 AM
What he said about the Chiefs is true though. To many people on here just bish and moan about what is currently is going on and don't look to the future. We aren't going to be anything this year, next year, or possibly even two years from now. We have a lot of work to do and we have the money and hopefully the picks to correct the mishaps of the last half decade.

L.A. Chieffan
10-28-2009, 09:43 AM
i am guessing the steve sax reference is because sax had to move to first base because he couldn't throw accurately anymore? Damn that is a shitty reference if I demonpenz lord of the dumb knowledge in sports has to figure that one out.

no, its because sax and steve howe used to do blow off of hookers asses in the 80's, so naturally he thinks delhomme is doing it too

ChiefButthurt
10-28-2009, 09:51 AM
If this team has a chance to "turn it around" next year...we should start seeing progress soon. I don't know about anyone else, I'm not seeing that progress YET.

Goldmember
10-28-2009, 10:02 AM
Peter King lost all crediblility with me when he thought Larry Johnson was a smart guy. The duud kant evin spill korreckly

bevischief
10-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Peter King lost all crediblility with me when he thought Larry Johnson was a smart guy. The duud kant evin spill korreckly

ROFL

tk13
10-28-2009, 10:52 AM
If this team has a chance to "turn it around" next year...we should start seeing progress soon. I don't know about anyone else, I'm not seeing that progress YET.

That depends... on just how many guys on this team will even be here next year.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 11:02 AM
Scott Pioli was given a free hand to reconstruct the Chiefs in his vision from the ground, and he's in the 10th month of probably a three-year building job doing that.

I think this is the key thing in there. Pioli didn't take this job to fit in the "six to eight" players that Herm thought we were away from competing for the playoffs, he took over this team to rip it apart and build an entirely new team from ground up, I'm guessing because he has a philosophy he believes in, he saw an owner who was going to have the patience and give him the support to do it, and he saw a team that he felt was fundamentally flawed and would never be in a position to compete for Super Bowls in the direction they were going.

Now we gotta pray that Pioli knows what he's doing, because he's basically going about this like the Chiefs are an expansion team (and, at 4-12 and 2-14, they essentially were)...

Fritz88
10-28-2009, 11:41 AM
It's all speculations. We've all said that Denver is going to get whooped but see where they are now. I hope he's right and we turn it around next year.

HemiEd
10-28-2009, 11:54 AM
I think this is the key thing in there. Pioli didn't take this job to fit in the "six to eight" players that Herm thought we were away from competing for the playoffs, he took over this team to rip it apart and build an entirely new team from ground up, I'm guessing because he has a philosophy he believes in, he saw an owner who was going to have the patience and give him the support to do it, and he saw a team that he felt was fundamentally flawed and would never be in a position to compete for Super Bowls in the direction they were going.

Now we gotta pray that Pioli knows what he's doing, because he's basically going about this like the Chiefs are an expansion team (and, at 4-12 and 2-14, they essentially were)...

Yeah, that is true, but it sure sucks right now.

ChiefMojo
10-28-2009, 12:13 PM
As Clark pointed out last week... the Donkey's were 8-8 last year, we were 2-14. No matter how big of a mess they had this off-season and the perceived lack of a Super Bowl team, they still had a fair amount more talent than we did. They plugged in some players, changed up their scheme and it worked. Apparently they weren't that far off as we all thought?

Micjones
10-28-2009, 12:23 PM
You mean there is hope?

But, but, but...
The Four Horsemen told me all was lost... What gives?

Brock
10-28-2009, 12:27 PM
You mean there is hope?

But, but, but...
The Four Horsemen told me all was lost... What gives?

Sure, there's hope. There's been hope since 1960.

milkman
10-28-2009, 12:31 PM
I think this is the key thing in there. Pioli didn't take this job to fit in the "six to eight" players that Herm thought we were away from competing for the playoffs, he took over this team to rip it apart and build an entirely new team from ground up, I'm guessing because he has a philosophy he believes in, he saw an owner who was going to have the patience and give him the support to do it, and he saw a team that he felt was fundamentally flawed and would never be in a position to compete for Super Bowls in the direction they were going.

Now we gotta pray that Pioli knows what he's doing, because he's basically going about this like the Chiefs are an expansion team (and, at 4-12 and 2-14, they essentially were)...

I disagree.

I thought the chiefs were headed in the right direction, they simply needed a new director.

I still believe that Tank and Turk could have been legitimate contibrutors ina 43 with Dorsey as the anchor.

I also believe that had the right "director" been hired, we would have addressed the O-Line, QB and WR in free agency and the draft.

We simply needed to tweak the philosophy on both sides of the ball and continue ot add talent.

We didn't need to blow the whole thing up.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 12:33 PM
As Clark pointed out last week... the Donkey's were 8-8 last year, we were 2-14. No matter how big of a mess they had this off-season and the perceived lack of a Super Bowl team, they still had a fair amount more talent than we did. They plugged in some players, changed up their scheme and it worked. Apparently they weren't that far off as we all thought?

And it really depends on the outlook you take on it. There are many different ways to build an organization. You can say that Denver plugged in some holes and off they went, but if they lose in the first round again, did anything of significance really change? If we stayed the course with Herm and Carl and brought in those six to eight players that Herm thought they were away from getting back to the playoffs, only to lose in the first round again, would it really have been better?

I'm thinking (hoping) that Pioli has this philosophy on what it will take to build a Super Bowl champion, not just some team that is making the playoffs at 9-7 or 10-6, occasionally going 13-3 thanks to lucky bounces in the regular season, and losing in the first or second round, and he wants to try and build it from the ground up. Again, the jury is out, but I think that's why you see him getting rid of anyone and everyone that doesn't fit what he's looking for...

Calcountry
10-28-2009, 12:34 PM
Well, it looks like I did the right thing with Sunday ticket for a second year.

B_Ambuehl
10-28-2009, 02:08 PM
Which team will turn it around in 2010? My guess is Detroit and Kansas City have the best chances because they have what appear to be strong GMs, strong coaches and quarterbacks who look like they have a chance.

Here comes Mecca, Dane, OTWP and Deez Nutz to tell us this is all BS and the organization is a total bust at this point. Blah,blah,blah.

Any negative opinion article is quoted as fact and anything resembling a positive is regarded as BS.


Except people forget this isn't the 1st year of the rebuild. Herm had already blown up the building 2 years ago and, based on whats happened on the field, this team has regressed even further. Some people are just sick and tired of seeing the same old bullshit over and over and being fed the same bill of goods. This regime is doing the same thing Herm did when he came in. Guys like DJ and Page are to Halioli what guys like Wiegmann and Dante Hall were to Herm. Some people are smart enough to realize the reasoning it's all just a bunch of hot air.

Goldmember
10-28-2009, 02:10 PM
And it really depends on the outlook you take on it. There are many different ways to build an organization. You can say that Denver plugged in some holes and off they went, but if they lose in the first round again, did anything of significance really change? If we stayed the course with Herm and Carl and brought in those six to eight players that Herm thought they were away from getting back to the playoffs, only to lose in the first round again, would it really have been better?

I'm thinking (hoping) that Pioli has this philosophy on what it will take to build a Super Bowl champion, not just some team that is making the playoffs at 9-7 or 10-6, occasionally going 13-3 thanks to lucky bounces in the regular season, and losing in the first or second round, and he wants to try and build it from the ground up. Again, the jury is out, but I think that's why you see him getting rid of anyone and everyone that doesn't fit what he's looking for...

The Cardinals were a 9-7 team that was one play away from a SB champion. To win one takes a lot of things happening just right along the way, some of it is luck. The best team doesn't always win. You need to get the team to a highly competitive level first, but there really isn't one true blueprint to win a SB....there are many blueprints.

DeezNutz
10-28-2009, 02:10 PM
http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/unicorn-rainbow.jpg

Hoover
10-28-2009, 02:23 PM
While I agree that this isn't the first year of the rebuild, it is Pioli's first year.

I don't care who was the HC or GM, when you change those positions you basically have to start over. I'm glad that the Chiefs it this way.

I hate the fact that we suck ass, I really do. However, I do see a light far off in the distance. We all thought Herm, or at least I did, was a good talent guy. I think we were wrong. How many players did we draft or sign that nobody has wanted after being cut.

The best thing the Chiefs could do is cut Larry Johnson's ass and anyone else who is a cancer to this team. Now is the time to do it.

What gives me hope is that we have a QB who I think can be the guy, a WR, and some defensive talent. We have a long way to go, but a core of players is starting to emerge.

Chocolate Hog
10-28-2009, 02:28 PM
I disagree.


I still believe that Tank and Turk could have been legitimate contibrutors ina 43 with Dorsey as the anchor.



Turk and Tank like the rest of Carls draft picks sucked dude.

Fish
10-28-2009, 02:30 PM
I disagree.

I thought the chiefs were headed in the right direction, they simply needed a new director.

I still believe that Tank and Turk could have been legitimate contibrutors ina 43 with Dorsey as the anchor.

I also believe that had the right "director" been hired, we would have addressed the O-Line, QB and WR in free agency and the draft.

We simply needed to tweak the philosophy on both sides of the ball and continue ot add talent.

We didn't need to blow the whole thing up.

Very well said.

Fish
10-28-2009, 02:36 PM
Rebuilding was essentially restarted when they decided to go 3-4 or bust. Up until that point, most of the rebuilding efforts on D had gone into the DLine. Pioli and Haley set the rebuilding back themselves when they decided they had to switch to a 3-4.

And the youth movement was really put on a back burner too. I hate to see that. All the old guys they brought it haven't served much purpose IMO.

tonyetony
10-28-2009, 02:54 PM
http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/unicorn-rainbow.jpg

Rainbows and Pegasus?

DeezNutz
10-28-2009, 02:55 PM
Rainbows and Pegasus?

Machismo.

tonyetony
10-28-2009, 03:01 PM
I personally like the Steve Miller Band Pegasus a little more.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 03:04 PM
Rebuilding was essentially restarted when they decided to go 3-4 or bust. Up until that point, most of the rebuilding efforts on D had gone into the DLine. Pioli and Haley set the rebuilding back themselves when they decided they had to switch to a 3-4.

And the youth movement was really put on a back burner too. I hate to see that. All the old guys they brought it haven't served much purpose IMO.

Actually Gretz posted a piece a while back that showed this team was younger than they were last year (Tony G out, Donnie Edwards out, McIntosh out, etc)...

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 03:09 PM
http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/unicorn-rainbow.jpg

Great response. The insight and analysis are unbelievable. You have once again posted irrefutable proof to back your opinion of the situation.

Did you, Mecca, Dane, and OTWP sit around and color this with crayons? Did your moms make milk and cookies for you and set you down for a nap around 2:00pm?

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 03:10 PM
Actually Gretz posted a piece a while back that showed this team was younger than they were last year (Tony G out, Donnie Edwards out, McIntosh out, etc)...

This is fact.

DeezNutz
10-28-2009, 03:16 PM
Great response. The insight and analysis are unbelievable. You have once again posted irrefutable proof to back your opinion of the situation.

Did you, Mecca, Dane, and OTWP sit around and color this with crayons? Did your moms make milk and cookies for you and set you down for a nap around 2:00pm?

LMAO. Keep the personal attacks coming, especially since I often direct them at you. Embarrassing.

"Irrefutable proof"? You must find just about every subject outside of mathematics pretty unconvincing. Absolutes, after all, are the hallmarks of effective argumentation.

2bikemike
10-28-2009, 03:31 PM
IMHO Where Clark Screwed up is he let Herm and Peterson start the rebuild. They should have gutted everything at the same time and started from scratch. Instead they let Herm and Peterson screw up the start and now Pioli and Haley are digging out of their piss poor talent hole.

Sounds like presidential politics doesn't it?

Buehler445
10-28-2009, 03:41 PM
IMHO Where Clark Screwed up is he let Herm and Peterson start the rebuild. They should have gutted everything at the same time and started from scratch. Instead they let Herm and Peterson screw up the start and now Pioli and Haley are digging out of their piss poor talent hole.

Sounds like presidential politics doesn't it?

This.
Posted via Mobile Device

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 03:43 PM
LMAO. Keep the personal attacks coming, especially since I often direct them at you. Embarrassing.

"Irrefutable proof"? You must find just about every subject outside of mathematics pretty unconvincing. Absolutes, after all, are the hallmarks of effective argumentation.

No personal attacks, if you are going to insinuate we all live in a fairly tale land of imagined reality then you get a response.

We all have opinions. Some of us don't act like our opinion is the only reality.

Opinions are like assholes, sometimes they stink.

Buehler445
10-28-2009, 03:45 PM
Rebuilding was essentially restarted when they decided to go 3-4 or bust. Up until that point, most of the rebuilding efforts on D had gone into the DLine. Pioli and Haley set the rebuilding back themselves when they decided they had to switch to a 3-4.

And the youth movement was really put on a back burner too. I hate to see that. All the old guys they brought it haven't served much purpose IMO.

I agree with the 3-4 piece, but am not so sure about the old guys. They were never anything more than stopgaps. Fortunately they are paid like it.

Hopefully they are providing some leadership and work ethic that other ineffective placeholders would not have. Before the homer flaming begins, I acknowledge that there is no way to tell, as all we have is the old fuckers.

I do wish they would have brought in SOME talent.
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 04:22 PM
I think it's hilarious that 99% of the time, Peter King is looked at a fucking retard around here yet if he writes something that people agree with, he's a genius.

Typical 'Planet.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 04:22 PM
Which team will turn it around in 2010? My guess is Detroit and Kansas City have the best chances because they have what appear to be strong GMs, strong coaches and quarterbacks who look like they have a chance.

Here comes Mecca, Dane, OTWP and Deez Nutz to tell us this is all BS and the organization is a total bust at this point. Blah,blah,blah.

Any negative opinion article is quoted as fact and anything resembling a positive is regarded as BS.

The exact things being bitched about around here as the biggest mistakes are the 3 reasons PK thinks we have a chance to turn it around next year. Interesting.

LMAO

I hope you don't get a neck strain from constantly looking over your shoulder there, Sport.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 04:25 PM
And it really depends on the outlook you take on it. There are many different ways to build an organization. You can say that Denver plugged in some holes and off they went, but if they lose in the first round again, did anything of significance really change?

Are you joking?

Denver has one the youngest teams in the league. They have a very but excellent offensive line, one premiere receiver and one very good receiver returner, an excellent rookie running back and a young, smart QB. They're set for years to come AND have more draft choices from the Chicago trade next year.

Not to mention that their defense is Top Five and you've got the makings of a very, very good Broncos teams for the foreseeable future.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 04:26 PM
Actually Gretz posted a piece a while back that showed this team was younger than they were last year (Tony G out, Donnie Edwards out, McIntosh out, etc)...

So?

It won't matter a lick if they're young but untalented.

So far, none of the draft choices brought in by Pioli have made any type of impact, unlike last year where Flowers, Carr, Albert and Charles all made an immediate impact.

Reerun_KC
10-28-2009, 04:31 PM
Here comes Mecca, Dane, OTWP and Deez Nutz to tell us this is all BS and the organization is a total bust at this point. Blah,blah,blah.




ROFL

Tribal Warfare
10-28-2009, 05:26 PM
I think it's hilarious that 99% of the time, Peter King is looked at a fucking retard around here yet if he writes something that people agree with, he's a genius.

Typical 'Planet.



I'll admit that I'm giving Pioli the benefit of the doubt like others, but this King article and his "Cassel growing pains, and great QB" is a definite stroking of the patriots cock with a golden wash rang.

milkman
10-28-2009, 05:33 PM
Turk and Tank like the rest of Carls draft picks sucked dude.

I disagree.

Tank was showing flashes last year, and lined up next to Dorsey, who is making strides this year, in a 43, would have given us a solid interior, with a servicable Hali at LDE.

We needed a good RDE to line up with them, with Turk, who showed flashes even while playing in the wrong position, playing a pivitol role as depth.

milkman
10-28-2009, 05:35 PM
LMAO. Keep the personal attacks coming, especially since I often direct them at you. Embarrassing.

"Irrefutable proof"? You must find just about every subject outside of mathematics pretty unconvincing. Absolutes, after all, are the hallmarks of effective argumentation.

Here's an absolute.

Marcellus is a useless dick.

Reerun_KC
10-28-2009, 05:35 PM
I think it's hilarious that 99% of the time, Peter King is looked at a ****ing retard around here yet if he writes something that people agree with, he's a genius.

Typical 'Planet.

Just depends on what you perspective is... I am sure the Pioli and Haley haters would jump all over his knob if he wrote something Mecca and co liked....

Yeah typical planet....

milkman
10-28-2009, 05:36 PM
IMHO Where Clark Screwed up is he let Herm and Peterson start the rebuild. They should have gutted everything at the same time and started from scratch. Instead they let Herm and Peterson screw up the start and now Pioli and Haley are digging out of their piss poor talent hole.

Sounds like presidential politics doesn't it?

Exactly what I said, only said differently.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 05:38 PM
Just depends on what you perspective is... I am sure the Pioli and Haley haters would jump all over his knob if he wrote something Mecca and co liked....

Yeah typical planet....

No. No, no, no, no, no.

Peter King is fucking hated amongst Chiefs fans. Every single fucking time anyone links one of his articles, the 'Planet hates on it.

Use the search and look it up.

I, on the other hand, like Peter King and read MMQB religiously and have for more than a decade. I've been an SI subscriber for much longer than that.

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 05:42 PM
No. No, no, no, no, no.

Peter King is ****ing hated amongst Chiefs fans. Every single ****ing time anyone links one of his articles, the 'Planet hates on it.

Use the search and look it up.

I, on the other hand, like Peter King and read MMQB religiously and have for more than a decade. I've been an SI subscriber for much longer than that.

So what is your take on the article, you still haven't stated that.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 05:44 PM
Why is Scott Pioli under any obligation to continue any of the "rebuilding" that Peterson and Edwards started? If he disagrees with anything they did, he'll blow that up as he should. Again I will repeat, look at any successful rebuilding jobs over the years. They usually got worse before they got better as the team was blown up. Gibbs started 0-5, Noll, Walsh, Jimmy Johnson, and I saw it with both Parcells and Belichick in NE. Relax people.
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 05:49 PM
So what is your take on the article, you still haven't stated that.

I read Peter King each and every week so his take is not surprising to me. He's always liked Cassel and Pioli and has said he thinks Haley will probably succeed. He mentioned that it appears that the QB is in place and it appears that Haley is a strong coach that will be given 3 years.

I can tell you that it appeared to me that Haley was the right hire before the season started and it appeared that Matt Cassel was going to perform okay based on his two preseason performances. But at this point, you could make the argument either way.

In my opinion, I haven't seen anything that's convince me that Cassel is the long term solution at QB nor have I seen anything to convince me that Haley is the long-term solution at head coach.

But, we're only seven games in. There's plenty of time for that opinion to change.

milkman
10-28-2009, 05:52 PM
No. No, no, no, no, no.

Peter King is ****ing hated amongst Chiefs fans. Every single ****ing time anyone links one of his articles, the 'Planet hates on it.

Use the search and look it up.

I, on the other hand, like Peter King and read MMQB religiously and have for more than a decade. I've been an SI subscriber for much longer than that.

Peter King is an idiot.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 05:53 PM
Peter King is an idiot.

I still like reading MMQB and the Tuesday Edition each week.

:D

milkman
10-28-2009, 05:59 PM
I still like reading MMQB and the Tuesday Edition each week.

:D

I don't read King except when he's linked here.

But I do hear constantly smacking his gums in interviews on ESPN Radio and on SNF pregame.

Every time he offers up an opinion I just wish I could tell him to shut the fuck up.

I remember going into the draft last year, he talked for about 5 minutes about Brian Brohm on the Dan Patrick, basically calling NFL scouts idiots, because Brohm was in his opinion, "Far and away the best QB in the draft".

He offers up opinions like that in every interview.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 06:09 PM
I don't read King except when he's linked here.

But I do hear constantly smacking his gums in interviews on ESPN Radio and on SNF pregame.

Every time he offers up an opinion I just wish I could tell him to shut the fuck up.

I remember going into the draft last year, he talked for about 5 minutes about Brian Brohm on the Dan Patrick, basically calling NFL scouts idiots, because Brohm was in his opinion, "Far and away the best QB in the draft".

He offers up opinions like that in every interview.

Yeah, I know.

But there are so very few NFL writers these days that'll I'll pretty much take whatever coverage I can get.

I really liked Dr. Z. I know people hate him too but I really like his knowledge of offensive line play.

And I like people with an opinion, whether I agree with it or not.

KC Jones
10-28-2009, 06:10 PM
Yeah, I know.

But there are so very few NFL writers these days that'll I'll pretty much take whatever coverage I can get.

I really liked Dr. Z. I know people hate him too but I really like his knowledge of offensive line play.

And I like people with an opinion, whether I agree with it or not.

Dr. Z has always been one of my favorites.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 06:14 PM
Dr Z is pretty good. He came right out and immediately predicted the Giants would get heat on Brady up the middle and upset the Patriots in the Super Bowl.
Posted via Mobile Device

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 06:16 PM
I read Peter King each and every week so his take is not surprising to me. He's always liked Cassel and Pioli and has said he thinks Haley will probably succeed. He mentioned that it appears that the QB is in place and it appears that Haley is a strong coach that will be given 3 years.

I can tell you that it appeared to me that Haley was the right hire before the season started and it appeared that Matt Cassel was going to perform okay based on his two preseason performances. But at this point, you could make the argument either way.

In my opinion, I haven't seen anything that's convince me that Cassel is the long term solution at QB nor have I seen anything to convince me that Haley is the long-term solution at head coach.

But, we're only seven games in. There's plenty of time for that opinion to change.

This.

King didn't exactly go out on a limb.

He said this:

Which team will turn it around in 2010? My guess is Detroit and Kansas City have the best chances because they have what appear to be strong GMs, strong coaches and quarterbacks who look like they have a chance.

When he would have said this, had he actually believed it:

Which team will turn it around in 2010? My guess is Detroit and Kansas City will, because they have strong GMs, strong coaches and franchise quarterbacks.

orange
10-28-2009, 06:18 PM
I think it's hilarious that 99% of the time, __________________ is looked at a ****ing retard around here yet if he writes something that people agree with, he's a genius.

Typical 'Planet.


FYP

Chocolate Hog
10-28-2009, 07:02 PM
So?

It won't matter a lick if they're young but untalented.

So far, none of the draft choices brought in by Pioli have made any type of impact, unlike last year where Flowers, Carr, Albert and Charles all made an immediate impact.

Eh well technically Succop has. Your right though Piolis first draft was suck.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 07:45 PM
So?

It won't matter a lick if they're young but untalented.

So far, none of the draft choices brought in by Pioli have made any type of impact, unlike last year where Flowers, Carr, Albert and Charles all made an immediate impact.

Well, it really depends what you mean by "immediate impact". If immediate impact is starting and putting up stats, then yeah sure. My measure of immediate impact is do they make your team any better. So if you're making an immediate impact on a 2-14 team, and this year you're making an immediate impact on a 1-6 team, how much of a real impact are you making?

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 07:52 PM
Well, it really depends what you mean by "immediate impact". If immediate impact is starting and putting up stats, then yeah sure. My measure of immediate impact is do they make your team any better. So if you're making an immediate impact on a 2-14 team, and this year you're making an immediate impact on a 1-6 team, how much of a real impact are you making?

That makes entirely too much sense.

Not to mention the positions we drafted were mainly D-line (3-4 DE) which take some time to develop. Not like a corner who can come in and be as noticeable immediately.

Donald Washington was a known project as well. Just like Morgan was supposed to be 2 years ago.

Mecca
10-28-2009, 07:52 PM
You can be an impact player on an awful team, Calvin Johnson is.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 08:00 PM
You can be an impact player on an awful team, Calvin Johnson is.

Dwayne Bowe used to be.

Now he gets 5 targets a game.

Mecca
10-28-2009, 08:02 PM
Dwayne Bowe used to be.

Now he gets 5 targets a game.

Dwayne Bowe gets the same targets as Lance Long, I don't understand it.

Tribal Warfare
10-28-2009, 08:03 PM
You can be an impact player on an awful team, Calvin Johnson is.

It also helps if he can stay on the field and not fight through nagging injuries.

Direckshun
10-28-2009, 08:04 PM
I think this team just needs a couple ugly years to build talent.

I don't think there's any mystery to it.

Mecca
10-28-2009, 08:05 PM
I think this team just needs a couple ugly years to build talent.

I don't think there's any mystery to it.

Well if we use those years drafting types like Tyson Jackson it's going to take more than a couple.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Dwayne Bowe gets the same targets as Lance Long, I don't understand it.

Louis Murphy has been targeted more than Bowe.

Louis.

Murphy.

And that's with Oakland having 30 fewer pass attempts.

Mecca
10-28-2009, 08:08 PM
Louis Murphy has been targeted more than Bowe.

Louis.

Murphy.

And that's with Oakland having 30 fewer pass attempts.

So either our coach doesn't call plays for him or our QB frankly doesn't like him...I wonder which one it is.

CHIEFS58
10-28-2009, 08:10 PM
ok, heres some peter king knowledge:

"Now, the Cowboys might be completely back and they might not— but what I like is that Romo is playing like you have to play sports."

Holy shit. Thats the most inane fuckery i have ever read. Peter King might be a writer...and he might not...but what I like is that he writes like he has to write.

Christ hes useless.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 08:11 PM
Well, it really depends what you mean by "immediate impact". If immediate impact is starting and putting up stats, then yeah sure. My measure of immediate impact is do they make your team any better. So if you're making an immediate impact on a 2-14 team, and this year you're making an immediate impact on a 1-6 team, how much of a real impact are you making?

Excuse me?

This is like "that depends on the definition of is".

Tyson Jackson is not an impact player, period, nor has he made an immediate impact. The defense has not improved over last year.

Alex Magee has made no impact. Say what you will but Charles and to some extent Cottam impacted the Chiefs positively last year.

If the Chiefs had taken Knowshon Moreno, Percy Harvin, Jeremy Maclin, Michael Crabtree or even Michael Oher, the Chiefs would have seen immediate impact.

Tyson Jackson's position is as such that it'll never make an impact. The other guys in Magee, Washington, Brown, Lawrence, Williams and O'Connell haven't had any impact, either.

For a team that was 2-14 last year with an extremely young roster, I fully expected Pioli to choose players that could make a difference and make an immediately impact.

So far, that has not been the case.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 08:12 PM
So either our coach doesn't call plays for him or our QB frankly doesn't like him...I wonder which one it is.

I can only speak to the game I went to, but Bowe was rarely if ever Cassel's first read - he was usually on the other side of the field.

Once we were in the 2-minute drill, however, he began getting the first look.

Odd.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 08:13 PM
Well if we use those years drafting types like Tyson Jackson it's going to take more than a couple.
How do you know that? What if Jackson turns out to be a top lineman?
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 08:13 PM
Louis Murphy has been targeted more than Bowe.

Louis.

Murphy.

And that's with Oakland having 30 fewer pass attempts.

He's a guy I had in my mock with our 4th round pick.

He would have been a nice complementary receiver to Bowe IMO.

It'll sicken me to know end if he ends up with better numbers than Bowe while playing with the worst QB in the league, bar none.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 08:14 PM
How do you know that? What if Jackson turns out to be a top lineman?
Posted via Mobile Device

All that 3-4 defensive ends are expected to do is swallow up blockers so that the linebackers can rush the QB and make plays.

He'll have to be the second coming Richard Seymour to make an impact.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 08:21 PM
All that 3-4 defensive ends are expected to do is swallow up blockers so that the linebackers can rush the QB and make plays.

He'll have to be the second coming Richard Seymour to make an impact.

How do you know he won't?
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 08:25 PM
That makes entirely too much sense.

Not to mention the positions we drafted were mainly D-line (3-4 DE) which take some time to develop. Not like a corner who can come in and be as noticeable immediately.

Huh?

Are you telling me that it's going to take a "few years" for a guy that was taken #3 overall time to "develop"?

#3 overall? If that's the case, he's the wrong fucking guy.


Donald Washington was a known project as well. Just like Morgan was supposed to be 2 years ago.

Morgan was drafted in the 2008 draft. By my count (and I could be wrong), that was last year.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 08:29 PM
After 7 games Richard Seymour wasn't making much of an impact while Patriot fans were still wishing they drafted David Terrell.
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 08:33 PM
After 7 games Richard Seymour wasn't making much of an impact while Patriot fans were still wishing they drafted David Terrell.
Posted via Mobile Device

So you're implying that just because Tyson Jackson plays the same position as Richard Seymour, Tyson Jackson will have the same impact as Richard Seymour?

Do I have that right?

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 08:34 PM
Huh?

Are you telling me that it's going to take a "few years" for a guy that was taken #3 overall time to "develop"?

#3 overall? If that's the case, he's the wrong ****ing guy.




Morgan was drafted in the 2008 draft. By my count (and I could be wrong), that was last year.

Who said a few years? 7 games Dane, 7 games.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 08:34 PM
So you're implying that just because Tyson Jackson plays the same position as Richard Seymour, Tyson Jackson will have the same impact as Richard Seymour?

Do I have that right?

WHOO!

Matt Cassel is going to have the same impact as Joe Montana!

Mecca
10-28-2009, 08:35 PM
What if he's Marcus Spears then all of the sudden our pick is trash.

Not to mention Spears is from the same college and was actually far more productive of a college player.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 08:36 PM
Who said a few years? 7 games Dane, 7 games.

I know but it's still not an "impact" position.

The Chiefs could have signed Ohlshansky or Canty in free agency and our defense wouldn't be any better or worse.

Yet, the number three pick could have been used elsewhere.

I don't care for Pioli's personnel decisions to this point.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 08:48 PM
WHOO!

Matt Cassel is going to have the same impact as Joe Montana!

Don't be a fucking retard. I said "How do you know he won't be a top lineman?". Had nothing to do with with because he plays the same position. You guys can be such stupid ass holes sometimes.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 08:50 PM
What if he's Marcus Spears then all of the sudden our pick is trash.

Not to mention Spears is from the same college and was actually far more productive of a college player.

Well if it turns out that he sucks then it will be horrible pick. But after 7 games you don't know it was a horrible pick.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 08:50 PM
Besides you can't criticize Tyson Jackson, Mecca. He's only 22!!!!!!!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 08:51 PM
Don't be a fucking retard. I said "How do you know he won't be a top lineman?". Had nothing to do with with because he plays the same position. You guys can be such stupid ass holes sometimes.
Posted via Mobile Device

Where did you say that?

Here's what you actually said:

After 7 games Richard Seymour wasn't making much of an impact while Patriot fans were still wishing they drafted David Terrell.
Posted via Mobile Device

Please explain because the words in those two quotes appear to me to be quite different and appear to have a different meaning.

Chiefless
10-28-2009, 08:52 PM
I think this is the key thing in there. Pioli didn't take this job to fit in the "six to eight" players that Herm thought we were away from competing for the playoffs, he took over this team to rip it apart and build an entirely new team from ground up, I'm guessing because he has a philosophy he believes in, he saw an owner who was going to have the patience and give him the support to do it, and he saw a team that he felt was fundamentally flawed and would never be in a position to compete for Super Bowls in the direction they were going.

Now we gotta pray that Pioli knows what he's doing, because he's basically going about this like the Chiefs are an expansion team (and, at 4-12 and 2-14, they essentially were)...

Agree. This team may be 6 to 8 players from competing for 4-12.

Fish
10-28-2009, 08:56 PM
Actually Gretz posted a piece a while back that showed this team was younger than they were last year (Tony G out, Donnie Edwards out, McIntosh out, etc)...

Last season, when a starter went down, a young unproven player like Carr was shoved on the field and got valuable experience. This year, when a starter goes down, a convoy of mediocre veterans come in while young unproven guys sit on the bench. And they continue to be unproven guys. While the mediocre vets don't play any better.

That's the difference in "Playing youth" I was alluding to.

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 08:59 PM
Last season, when a starter went down, a young unproven player like Carr was shoved on the field and got valuable experience. This year, when a starter goes down, a convoy of mediocre veterans come in while young unproven guys sit on the bench. And they continue to be unproven guys. While the mediocre vets don't play any better.

That's the difference in "Playing youth" I was alluding to.

Mays and Belcher would disagree with you.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:02 PM
Excuse me?

This is like "that depends on the definition of is".

Tyson Jackson is not an impact player, period, nor has he made an immediate impact. The defense has not improved over last year.

Alex Magee has made no impact. Say what you will but Charles and to some extent Cottam impacted the Chiefs positively last year.

If the Chiefs had taken Knowshon Moreno, Percy Harvin, Jeremy Maclin, Michael Crabtree or even Michael Oher, the Chiefs would have seen immediate impact.

Tyson Jackson's position is as such that it'll never make an impact. The other guys in Magee, Washington, Brown, Lawrence, Williams and O'Connell haven't had any impact, either.

For a team that was 2-14 last year with an extremely young roster, I fully expected Pioli to choose players that could make a difference and make an immediately impact.

So far, that has not been the case.

I'm not saying we had a great draft this year. I'm saying I define "impact" as helping to make a difference between winning and losing. Otherwise I agree with Haley, 22 guys off the street could win 2 games...

Mecca
10-28-2009, 09:02 PM
Corey Mays isn't exactly as young as you might think he's an NFL journeyman.

Fish
10-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Mays and Belcher would disagree with you.

Mays has played for 3 teams. He's neither young nor unproven.

Belcher is a special teamer. Behind Mays on the depth chart.....

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Mays and Belcher would disagree with you.

Corey Mays isn't a 25 year old, four year NFL veteran?

Huh.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:07 PM
I'm not saying we had a great draft this year. I'm saying I define "impact" as helping to make a difference between winning and losing.

The only guy that could even remotely considered as having an impact this year is Mr. Irrelevant, Ryan Succop.

But then again, you actually have to be in a position to win for the kicker to have an impact.




Otherwise I agree with Haley, 22 guys off the street could win 2 games...

I've been told that Whitlock made that up, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 09:07 PM
Who made a more immediate impact? Matt Leinhart,Reggie Bush, Vince Young, or Mario Williams? Leinhart,Bush and Young did. So what? Who is going to make a long term impact is what matters.
Posted via Mobile Device

Tribal Warfare
10-28-2009, 09:09 PM
Who made a more immediate impact? Matt Leinhart,Reggie Bush, Vince Young, or Mario Williams? Leinhart,Bush and Young did. So what? Who is going to make a long term impact is what matters.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yet, how long are we suppose to wait for a 27 year old QB who has had 4 years experience in the league and is suppose to be a proven commodity?

Next year will be key, their's been stats presented that indicates that if Cassel sucks again it would be cheaper to cut him after his second year than letting him play it out.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:11 PM
It doesn't really matter the ages. Carl and Herm were the ones who said they were going to go "youth movement". And their youngsters brought 6 wins in 2 years.

These new guys never said "youth movement", they said they're going to build the team in their vision and find guys who they feel can play. Obviously thus far they haven't, but I think again we're using a fallacy in thinking that just because a veteran is playing over a young guy, the young guy is not getting experience and therefore not becoming good, while the vet sucks and is still getting the PT. When in reality, the young guy probably sucks anyway, and you're wasting time playing him because he's not ready to play. For reference, see Herm Edwards, 2007 and 2008.

We've tried it both ways. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is someone needs to find good football players for this team, I don't care if they are 22 or 32...

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:11 PM
Who made a more immediate impact? Matt Leinhart,Reggie Bush, Vince Young, or Mario Williams? Leinhart,Bush and Young did. So what? Who is going to make a long term impact is what matters.
Posted via Mobile Device

Way to avoid the subject AND avoid addressing your previous posts.

:rolleyes:

Again, are you implying that since Tyson Jackson hasn't made an impact through seven games, he'll make an impact like Mario Williams did next year?

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 09:12 PM
Yet, how long are we suppose to wait for a 27 year old QB who has had 4 years experience in the league and is suppose to be a proven commodity?
I love this crap about "4 years of experience". He was on the bench behind Tom Brady those 4 years.
And I thought we were talking about Tyson Jackson, Mr "The 86 Broncos were as bad as the 09 Chiefs".
Posted via Mobile Device

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 09:13 PM
Corey Mays isn't a 25 year old, four year NFL veteran?

Huh.

25 makes him an unproven veteran? Huh.

Pioli Zombie
10-28-2009, 09:14 PM
Way to avoid the subject AND avoid addressing your previous posts.

:rolleyes:

Again, are you implying that since Tyson Jackson hasn't made an impact through seven games, he'll make an impact like Mario Williams did next year?
Not at all. The point is, you don't know what his impact is going to be either. Neither does Mecca, or Hamas, OTWP.
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:15 PM
It doesn't really matter the ages. Carl and Herm were the ones who said they were going to go "youth movement". And their youngsters brought 6 wins in 2 years.

This is patently FALSE.

The Chiefs didn't begin their "rebuild" until the 2008 draft. At that point, the team traded Jared Allen and brought in a youth at crucial positions. LT, RB, DT, TE, CB, CB and Safety.

They brought only two wins because the Chiefs went through three starting quarterbacks. Furthermore, they lost eight games by 7 points or less.

IMO, it seemed like they were building a nice, youthful foundation. Of course, Pioli disagreed and instead, neutered the team.

These new guys never said "youth movement", they said they're going to build the team in their vision and find guys who they feel can play. Obviously thus far they haven't, but I think again we're using a fallacy in thinking that just because a veteran is playing over a young guy, the young guy is not getting experience and therefore not becoming good, while the vet sucks and is still getting the PT. When in reality, the young guy probably sucks anyway, and you're wasting time playing him because he's not ready to play. For reference, see Herm Edwards, 2007 and 2008.

What? What? WHAT?

The "young" guy should have far more potential than the "old" guy. He doesn't necessarily "suck" as he needs experience. What better way for a young player to get experience than on a 1-6 team?

Again, 2008.

We've tried it both ways. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is someone needs to find good football players for this team, I don't care if they are 22 or 32...

We didn't "try it both ways". What the FUCK are you talking about?

You can't rebuild the worst roster in the league in one fucking offseason.

Yet Pioli decided that the majority of guys chosen in the past few years aren't part of the "Right 53", so those guys are producing elsewhere.

And a 32 year old guy may or may not make it through the season so it sure as hell BETTER matter.

Tribal Warfare
10-28-2009, 09:15 PM
I love this crap about "4 years of experience". He was on the bench behind Tom Brady those 4 years.
And I thought we were talking about Tyson Jackson, Mr "The 86 Broncos were as bad as the 09 Chiefs".
Posted via Mobile Device

So what, the reason he was signed in the 1st place because supposedly he could run a NFL offense with no "rookie" mistakes.

He was paid 63 million dollars with 28 guaranteed his time is now.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:16 PM
Way to avoid the subject AND avoid addressing your previous posts.

:rolleyes:

Again, are you implying that since Tyson Jackson hasn't made an impact through seven games, he'll make an impact like Mario Williams did next year?

The only way Jackson becomes the player he was billed to be is if he becomes that solid guy who you can build a defense around, as Pioli compared him to Russel Maryland. If in two years that front seven is not one of the best in the league anchored by Jackson, then Jackson will not have lived up to his draft position.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:21 PM
25 makes him an unproven veteran? Huh.

Four years in the NFL doesn't constitute "youth".

Four years would be "veteran".

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:23 PM
The only way Jackson becomes the player he was billed to be is if he becomes that solid guy who you can build a defense around, as Pioli compared him to Russel Maryland. If in two years that front seven is not one of the best in the league anchored by Jackson, then Jackson will not have lived up to his draft position.

If he's "Russell Maryland", I'll be even more pissed that the Chiefs took him #3 overall.

That fucking fatass played 4 years for the Dallas Cowboys before moving onto the Raiders and finally Packers.

That's a pretty shitty career, IMO.

Tyson Jackson will NEVER live up to the #3 overall position, which is what makes his selection even worse.

Fish
10-28-2009, 09:24 PM
It doesn't really matter the ages. Carl and Herm were the ones who said they were going to go "youth movement". And their youngsters brought 6 wins in 2 years.

These new guys never said "youth movement", they said they're going to build the team in their vision and find guys who they feel can play. Obviously thus far they haven't, but I think again we're using a fallacy in thinking that just because a veteran is playing over a young guy, the young guy is not getting experience and therefore not becoming good, while the vet sucks and is still getting the PT. When in reality, the young guy probably sucks anyway, and you're wasting time playing him because he's not ready to play. For reference, see Herm Edwards, 2007 and 2008.

We've tried it both ways. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is someone needs to find good football players for this team, I don't care if they are 22 or 32...

Well... quite a few of the young guys that excelled last year have started this year. Brandon Carr was pretty raw when he arrived. He still is in some ways. But the experience he got last year, while making mistakes along the way, dramatically improved him and locked him in as a starter this season. Same for Mike Cox, who played almost out of necessity. Tank, who had improved quite a bit over last season, got valuable experience at times last season. Enough to require a draft pick in trade. This year Kenny Smith was brought in. Need I remind you when his last action was?

Like you said, somebody definitely needs to find good football players though. I haven't seen any improvement on that.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:24 PM
This is patently FALSE.

The Chiefs didn't begin their "rebuild" until the 2008 draft. At that point, the team traded Jared Allen and brought in a youth at crucial positions. LT, RB, DT, TE, CB, CB and Safety.

They brought only two wins because the Chiefs went through three starting quarterbacks. Furthermore, they lost eight games by 7 points or less.

IMO, it seemed like they were building a nice, youthful foundation. Of course, Pioli disagreed and instead, neutered the team.


Disagree because midway through 2007 they began giving the young guys more playing time. It didn't begin during the 2007 offseason, but it did begin during that season once things went south.

And again, bringing in youth at critical positions is just terminology. They brought in a guard to convert to a franchise LT, and ended up passing on the best LT in the draft. They brought in a RB that has provided little to no impact to the running game aside from fumbling. They brought in a TE who can't play. And everyone on defense contributed, again, to a historically bad defense.

If they had actually done their job and drafted well, and also not built their youth movement around Brodie Croyle, they probably would have won more than 2 games and saved their jobs...

Marcellus
10-28-2009, 09:26 PM
Four years in the NFL doesn't constitute "youth".

Four years would be "veteran".

25 years old goes against the youth movement which was the original point of the post?

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:27 PM
If he's "Russell Maryland", I'll be even more pissed that the Chiefs took him #3 overall.

That ****ing fatass played 4 years for the Dallas Cowboys before moving onto the Raiders and finally Packers.

That's a pretty shitty career, IMO.

Tyson Jackson will NEVER live up to the #3 overall position, which is what makes his selection even worse.

Yeah, because you're basing it on stats. I base it on the fact that he was the anchor of a defense that won three super bowls, was in Jimmy Johnson's own words critical to their success, and did a lot of the dirty work up front. If Tyson Jackson is the anchor to a defense that wins even one super bowl, he will have been a huge success...

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 09:27 PM
The only way Jackson becomes the player he was billed to be is if he becomes that solid guy who you can build a defense around, as Pioli compared him to Russel Maryland. If in two years that front seven is not one of the best in the league anchored by Jackson, then Jackson will not have lived up to his draft position.

If Jackson turns out to be Russell fucking Maryland, Pioli deserves to be drawn and quartered in Lot G in front of every Chiefs fan alive.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 09:30 PM
Yeah, because you're basing it on stats. I base it on the fact that he was the anchor of a defense that won three super bowls, was in Jimmy Johnson's own words critical to their success, and did a lot of the dirty work up front. If Tyson Jackson is the anchor to a defense that wins even one super bowl, he will have been a huge success...

Anchor of the defense my ass.

Give me Charles Haley and Jim Jeffcoat, FTW.

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:31 PM
We didn't "try it both ways". What the **** are you talking about?

You can't rebuild the worst roster in the league in one ****ing offseason.

Yet Pioli decided that the majority of guys chosen in the past few years aren't part of the "Right 53", so those guys are producing elsewhere.

And a 32 year old guy may or may not make it through the season so it sure as hell BETTER matter.

I'm not just referencing 07-08 here, I'm talking Carl's history here. We've tried it with veterans, we've tried it with young guys, and it never went anywhere. And by anywhere, my measure is winning the Super Bowl.

And you know what, that "worst roster in the league" became the worst roster under whose watch? So of course anyone coming in here is going to rip it apart. You think Carl actually was building a core that could win the Super Bowl?

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:34 PM
Anchor of the defense my ass.

Give me Charles Haley and Jim Jeffcoat, FTW.

Wow, OK. I guess Jimmy Johnson is just a dumbass who didn't know what the **** was going on with his own defense...

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:35 PM
Disagree because midway through 2007 they began giving the young guys more playing time. It didn't begin during the 2007 offseason, but it did begin during that season once things went south.

Dude, it doesn't work like that. The Chiefs didn't go with a youth during the 2007 season. They drafted guys to play on the defensive line because they were necessary. There were no other new "young" guys out there. Donnie Edwards?

And again, bringing in youth at critical positions is just terminology. They brought in a guard to convert to a franchise LT, and ended up passing on the best LT in the draft.

What? Clearly, you know nothing about offensive line play. Albert was a guard that pulled and played very well in space. He's a natural left tackle and the ONLY reason he played guard is because Eugene Monroe could ONLY play tackle.

How didn't they "pass" on the best left tackle in the draft when they didn't have a pick to draft him? Are you stating that the Chiefs should have passed on Dorsey, who was the unanimous best player in the draft, to take Clady, who was a questionable run blocker?

Clady wouldn't have the same success in KC as he does in Denver because the Chiefs don't zone block.

They brought in a RB that has provided little to no impact to the running game aside from fumbling. They brought in a TE who can't play. And everyone on defense contributed, again, to a historically bad defense.


So Charles has had no impact? For a third rounder? Huh. I thought he played pretty well in the spread last year, touching the ball 67 times for 676 yards, good for 6.6 yard per touch. You're bitching about that?

Cottam is a receiving tight end, not a blocking tight end. Haley hasn't played him. Haley doesn't like anyone that was here before.

No ONE is stating that the defense was in place. But they're no better this year and that's after drafting three defensive players with their top three picks AND dumping three starters from last year's squad.


If they had actually done their job and drafted well, and also not built their youth movement around Brodie Croyle, they probably would have won more than 2 games and saved their jobs...

So, since the Chiefs are likely to go no better than 2-14 this year after building their team around Cassel, Jackson, Magee and Washington, should they be fired as well?

I mean, one year is long enough to rebuild, right?

JFC.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:36 PM
25 years old goes against the youth movement which was the original point of the post?

If you were talking about a 25 year-old rookie or second year player, I might agree.

But a 25 year-old, four year veteran does not count as "youth", no matter how you try to twist it.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 09:37 PM
Wow, OK. I guess Jimmy Johnson is just a dumbass who didn't know what the **** was going on with his own defense...

Had the conversation been about any other player, he would have called them an anchor as well - it's not like he's going to shit on his players.

And personally, I could give two shits what JJ thinks. If Jackson is a Russell Maryland clone, we've been fucked right in the ass.

I'm not saying RM is a scrub - not at all - but you better get a lot more out of a 3rd overall pick.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:38 PM
Wow, OK. I guess Jimmy Johnson is just a dumbass who didn't know what the **** was going on with his own defense...

So let me get this right: You're basing Tyson Jackson's abilities and his potential impact based on a quote by Jimmy Johnson to validate Jackson's selection by Pioli?

Pretzel logic, anyone?

boogblaster
10-28-2009, 09:39 PM
Dont know bout the 2010 dateline .. but hopefully we'll field a better team ....

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:46 PM
Dane, Carl was here for TWENTY YEARS. One year to rebuild my ass. This has been a losing franchise this decade. And you want to talk about how promising the team he was putting together looked? Seriously?

You also have him trading away perhaps the league's best defensive player for what right now is an average left tackle, a backup safety, and what so far has been a third down back. THAT is how you rebuild?

And name me the last defensive tackle he drafted that worked out for this team.

As far as Cottam, as a tight end you NEED to block. You also NEED to receive if you are a receiving tight end. By all accounts he sucked at BOTH aspects of the game this offseason and preseason and into the season.

I'm not sitting here defending Pioli, CLEARLY this team is no better than they were last year, and could be worse in some senses. But I sure as hell am not going to defend what he inherited either...

DaWolf
10-28-2009, 09:50 PM
So let me get this right: You're basing Tyson Jackson's abilities and his potential impact based on a quote by Jimmy Johnson to validate Jackson's selection by Pioli?

Pretzel logic, anyone?

Dude, I DID NOT MAKE THIS ANALOGY. SCOTT PIOLI did after the draft. I am just relaying what SCOTT PIOLI feels would make the dude a successful pick. And in my mind if he anchors a super bowl defense and does things that allow other players to get pro bowl numbers, then yeah, success. But I am not basing Jackson's success based on something Jimmy Johnson said...

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 09:54 PM
Dane, Carl was here for TWENTY YEARS. One year to rebuild my ass. This has been a losing franchise this decade. And you want to talk about how promising the team he was putting together looked? Seriously?

You also have him trading away perhaps the league's best defensive player for what right now is an average left tackle, a backup safety, and what so far has been a third down back. THAT is how you rebuild?

And name me the last defensive tackle he drafted that worked out for this team.

As far as Cottam, as a tight end you NEED to block. You also NEED to receive if you are a receiving tight end. By all accounts he sucked at BOTH aspects of the game this offseason and preseason and into the season.

I'm not sitting here defending Pioli, CLEARLY this team is no better than they were last year, and could be worse in some senses. But I sure as hell am not going to defend what he inherited either...

Herm Edwards got control of personnel from Carl in 2008. Herm Edwards wanted to rebuild in 2006, then again in 2007. Carl said no so finally, Edwards went directly to Hunt.

Look, I don't think Herm is a Super Bowl coach. But I certainly think he had the right idea about building a youthful football team. If you look around at the league, teams like Baltimore, Indy, Pittsburgh, the Giants and Philly build their teams through the draft. They don't go out and buy the highest priced free agents. They don't use stop gaps. They draft and develop. That's what Herm wanted to do with the Chiefs. But since Pioli has been hired, all of that's out the window.

I don't know where this team is headed and neither does anyone else. But so far, the only place it's gone is down.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 09:56 PM
firing herm was the worst move this franchise made

KcFanInGA
10-28-2009, 09:57 PM
We have picks stockpiled people. Have you no patience?

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 10:00 PM
We have picks stockpiled people. Have you no patience?

Stockpiled?

We have 7.

Stockpiled would be the 12 or 13 we had in 2008.

Fish
10-28-2009, 10:00 PM
firing herm was the worst move this franchise made

LMAO

Now wait just a second....

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:08 PM
LMAO

Now wait just a second....

the haley era has been great SPOCK!

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:12 PM
the haley era has been great SPOCK!

Whether or not Haley is/can be a good head coach is still unknown

Two things that are known, though, is Herman fucking Edwards couldn't coach his dumb ass out of a paper bag.

And the only dumbass that makes his dumbassery look mild is you.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:14 PM
Whether or not Haley is/can be a good head coach is still unknown

Two things that are known, though, is Herman ****ing Edwards couldn't coach his dumb ass out of a paper bag.

And the only dumbass that makes his dumbassery look mild is you.

He went to the playoffs year after year with the jets and took the chiefs there, he was rebuilding and chiefs hit the panic button and fired him

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:21 PM
He went to the playoffs year after year with the jets and took the chiefs there, he was rebuilding and chiefs hit the panic button and fired him

He basically killed both franchises, dumbass.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:22 PM
He basically killed both franchises, dumbass.

go do some research

Fish
10-28-2009, 10:24 PM
He went to the playoffs year after year with the jets and took the chiefs there, he was rebuilding and chiefs hit the panic button and fired him

Panic button hell.. I used to be a big Herm supporter, but the guy definitely had his flaws. He had the right idea about how to build a franchise. But he went about it with the grace of a drunken elephant. We didn't hurt ourselves cutting ties with him. But we haven't shown improvement over it yet either.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:25 PM
just think we'd be running wildcat our offense would be top 10. we'd probably be 5-2 or so

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:27 PM
go do some research

I don't have to do research, dumbass.

I watch football.

I saw what his dumb ass did to both the Jets and the Cheifs.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 10:27 PM
Panic button hell.. I used to be a big Herm supporter, but the guy definitely had his flaws. He had the right idea about how to build a franchise. But he went about it with the grace of a drunken elephant. We didn't hurt ourselves cutting ties with him. But we haven't shown improvement over it yet either.

Herm's only path back to the NFL would be through personnel (Pro Player Personnel, Assistant GM, GM).

I can't see him as a head coach in the league. He's made too many mistakes as a head coach and that's all on video.

Although anything's possible as long as Big Al in Oakland is alive...

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 10:27 PM
I don't have to do research, dumbass.

I watch football.

I saw what his dumb ass did to both the Jets and the Cheifs.

Truth be told, the Jets were in far better shape than the Chiefs.

And no one will ever know if his efforts to turn around the Chiefs franchise would have been successful since Pioli shipped everyone out but Hali.

Haley's alienated Bowe, Bradley, Albert and Charles to the point where I question their future effectiveness under this regime.

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:28 PM
Panic button hell.. I used to be a big Herm supporter, but the guy definitely had his flaws. He had the right idea about how to build a franchise. But he went about it with the grace of a drunken elephant. We didn't hurt ourselves cutting ties with him. But we haven't shown improvement over it yet either.

When the rumors started circulating that Herman fucking Edwards was on Carl's radar, I wanted no part of him.

He was the worst coach in the league.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 10:30 PM
Any intelligent talk over here? The Patriot troll has taken over the LJ thread with his dipshittery.

JPB sucks the life out of every thread he trolls. It's like arguing with Terri Schiavo.

He finally found the ignore list.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:30 PM
When the rumors started circulating that Herman ****ing Edwards was on Carl's radar, I wanted no part of him.

He was the worst coach in the league.

yeah and you probably wanted to keep jared, and trade LJ, and not give cassel 60 million, and draft succop, and not draft dorsey, and sims, and siavii, and tank, and turk, and jackson

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:32 PM
Truth be told, the Jets were in far better shape than the Chiefs.

And no one will ever know if his efforts to turn around the Chiefs franchise would have been successful since Pioli shipped everyone out but Hali.

He took over a well coached Jets team, and by the time he was through, they were undisciplined and lacking direction.

The Cheifs were in far worse shape becasue they were getting old and ready for an infusion of youth when he took over.

Hire a coach that lacks discpline and direction, add youth, and you get a bad, bad football team.

Herman fucking Edwards had the right idea, he just wasn't the man for the job.

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:34 PM
yeah and you probably wanted to keep jared, and trade LJ, and not give cassel 60 million, and draft succop, and not draft dorsey, and sims, and siavii, and tank, and turk, and jackson

No dumbass, I was behind the trade that sent Allen to the Vikings.
And I wanted to draft Dorsey.

Stop talking out of your ass.

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:35 PM
Any intelligent talk over here? The Patriot troll has taken over the LJ thread with his dipshittery.

JPB sucks the life out of every thread he trolls. It's like arguing with Terri Schiavo.

He finally found the ignore list.

The biggest dumbass to slip out of his mother's mouth and into her vagina is here, so no, there isn't any intelligent talk here either.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:37 PM
No dumbass, I was behind the trade that sent Allen to the Vikings.
And I wanted to draft Dorsey.

Stop talking out of your ass.

All I wanted was to discuss the chiefs, and you turn it south.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 10:38 PM
When the rumors started circulating that Herman fucking Edwards was on Carl's radar, I wanted no part of him.

He was the worst coach in the league.


In 2005? That's a bit of an exaggeration.

Romeo Crennel
Dom Capers
Norv Turner
Jim Haslett
Joe Vitt (Rams)
Dennis Green
Mike Nolan

I'd take Herm over any of those guys as head coach.

Not that that's saying much.

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:40 PM
All I wanted was to discuss the chiefs, and you turn it south.

Yeah, you come here talking about the firing Herman fucking Edwards as the worst move on a forum that has told you over and over that Herman fucking Edwards is a dumbass, and you expected to get a warm welcome.

What did you expect?

Oh, wait, look at the dumbass I'm asking.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:41 PM
Yeah, you come here talking about the firing Herman ****ing Edwards as the worst move on a forum that has told you over and over that Herman ****ing Edwards is a dumbass, and you expected to get a warm welcome.

What did you expect?

Oh, wait, look at the dumbass I'm asking.

IT'S a INTERNET FORUM I'LL STATE MY OPINION

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 10:42 PM
IT'S a INTERNET FORUM I'LL STATE MY OPINION

I've always wondered: Does it hurt to be stupid?

It's hurts me to read stupid.

Just curious.

Thanks in advance!

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:42 PM
In 2005? That's a bit of an exaggeration.

Romeo Crennel
Dom Capers
Norv Turner
Jim Haslett
Joe Vitt (Rams)
Dennis Green
Mike Nolan

I'd take Herm over any of those guys as head coach.

Not that that's saying much.

Sorry Dane, but Norv Turner is the only one of that group that might make me think.

But I'd only pause for a second before choosing Norv over Herman fucking Edwards if you put a gun to my head and told me that was my only choice.

chiefbowe82
10-28-2009, 10:43 PM
I've always wondered: Does it hurt to be stupid?

It's hurts me to read stupid.

Just curious.

Thanks in advance!

YOU LIKE HERM EDWARDS TO YOU DUMB PRICK

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:44 PM
IT'S a INTERNET FORUM I'LL STATE MY OPINION

And when you state your stupid opinion dumbass, then prepare to be told you are a dumbass, dumbass.

OnTheWarpath58
10-28-2009, 10:44 PM
And when you state your stupid opinion dumbass, then prepare to be told you are a dumbass, dumbass.

LMAO

milkman
10-28-2009, 10:45 PM
YOU LIKE HERM EDWARDS TO YOU DUMB PRICK

Good god, it's not humanly possible to be this fucking stupid.

It's just not.

DaneMcCloud
10-28-2009, 10:50 PM
Sorry Dane, but Norv Turner is the only one of that group that might make me think.

But I'd only pause for a second before choosing Norv over Herman fucking Edwards if you put a gun to my head and told me that was my only choice.

LMAO