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DaWolf
11-16-2009, 12:12 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/1572416.html
JASON WHITLOCK COMMENTARY

OAKLAND, Calif. | Todd Haley answered the question before it was asked.

“Was that a well-coached game?” Kansas City’s first-time head coach said after the Chiefs’ 16-10 victory over the Raiders. “No. No, but we’ve got to do things — we’ve got to think outside the box a little bit as we find our way through.”

Had Raiders first-round disaster Darrius Heyward-Bey held on to Oakland’s final pass and the Raiders completed their final drive, Haley’s credible tenure as an NFL head coach would’ve ended nine games into his first season.

Heyward-Bey saved Haley’s job and what little credibility he has left. By inexplicably bobbling and then batting the ball into the hands of Chiefs safety Mike Brown at the KC 10, Heyward-Bey breathed new life into Haley’s head-coaching career.

Your guess is as good as any what Haley will do with this second chance. In the aftermath of his second victory, he acknowledged that his football instincts push him to gamble. On Sunday, with the Raiders doing everything they possibly could to secure their seventh loss, Haley tried to out-dumb Al Davis’ men in black.

Late in the third quarter, facing fourth and 1 at the Oakland 14 and leading 13-10, Haley turned down a field-goal attempt, a short-yardage run and had Matt Cassel bootleg right for a pass attempt. The Raiders broke up the pass and stayed within a Sebastian Janikowski field goal of a tie game. Worse, when the Chiefs did tack on an additional field goal in the fourth quarter, the Chiefs led by six rather than an insurmountable number such as nine.

“I have to be smart,” Haley admitted. “You can’t let the circumstances get to you too much.”

The circumstances are: 1. Haley and Scott Pioli are getting a very difficult lesson in just how hard it is to win in the NFL; 2. Kansas City’s personnel is below average; 3. After running his mouth and carrying himself like his coaching would magically produce five or six victories, Haley is embarrassed.

Rather than humble himself, Haley is trying to win football games from the sideline. This is why I’ve been harping on “ego” all season. An out-of-control ego makes coaches and executives do dumb stuff.

They start “thinking outside the box” and convince themselves they can turn three points into seven with a special play on fourth and 1. They forget that against the Raiders, JaMarcus Russell and Tom Cable, three points might as well be seven.

You don’t have to do anything special to beat the Raiders. Every possession that ends in a punt puts you closer to victory. You show up and accept the gifts the Raiders are willing to give.

The Raiders erased positive plays with penalties all day. They dropped the few good passes Russell threw. Cable put the poor-throwing Russell in shotgun and had him throw the ball on third and 1 just before halftime. The Raiders sacrificed field position by failing to catch a routine punt.

On Sunday, like most every other NFL Sunday, the Raiders were the dumbest team in football. So why did they have a chance to win it in the final minute?

Well, it’s an indication of how bad the Chiefs are and how poor the offensive decision-making was. Haley said his biggest regret was trying a failed 52-yard field goal.

That “was a dumber” decision than going on fourth and 1, Haley said. Hmm. What about the third-down play-calling? The Chiefs converted one of 15 third downs! Haley tried a Cassel draw on one third-down play. And Haley seemed reluctant to run Jamaal Charles in third-and-short situations.

When Haley acknowledged his gambling nature, he added that it was important for his assistant coaches to “check him” when he’s “acting a fool.” Haley specifically mentioned assistant head coach Maurice Carthon.

Good luck with that job, Mo. Chan Gailey got fired, and receivers coach Dedric Ward got demoted for trying to “check” Haley.

Checking Haley is the responsibility of general manger Scott Pioli, the one person in the organization whose ego is more out of control than Haley’s.

The mind-set of the organization is that the GM and head coach are going to win football games. That’s just not the case in the NFL. Good coaches put players in position to win games.

Haley avoided a major disaster Sunday. Had the Chiefs lost, it would’ve been hard to argue he deserves a second season.

Mr. Arrowhead
11-16-2009, 12:14 AM
is this article a joke?

CHENZ A!
11-16-2009, 12:17 AM
He's right.

btlook1
11-16-2009, 12:17 AM
I think Whitlock is letting the circumstances get to him....hopefully he falls off his band wagon and breaks a leg!
Write a real article Fat boy!!

Count Alex's Wins
11-16-2009, 12:18 AM
Fucking bullshit.

The Chiefs couldn't have held Oakland out of the end zone had Heyward-Bey caught the pass instead? Does Jason have a fucking crystal ball?

Fuck Whitlock. Garbage. Take your medicine. Two wins, and more to come...

Mr. Arrowhead
11-16-2009, 12:19 AM
He's right.
ROFL your and idiot

CHENZ A!
11-16-2009, 12:20 AM
We should've kicked the field goal, no doubt though. That was a dumbass call.

BigMeatballDave
11-16-2009, 12:20 AM
Wow. Could Jason BE more childish?

CHENZ A!
11-16-2009, 12:21 AM
ROFL your and idiot

:shake: you sir are the and idiot

Kyle DeLexus
11-16-2009, 12:22 AM
Who keeps giving Whitlock a second chance to write the same tired crap every week.

Mr. Arrowhead
11-16-2009, 12:22 AM
I think Whitlock is letting the circumstances get to him....hopefully he falls off his band wagon and breaks a leg!
Write a real article Fat boy!!

no joke, its almost like hes letting personal feeling get away from his writing. Hes trying every possible way to criticize this regime, which i understand they deserve some, but whitlock is making it worse than it really is.

Mr. Arrowhead
11-16-2009, 12:23 AM
:shake: you sir are the and idiot

isnt it past ur bedtime son

Bunit
11-16-2009, 12:23 AM
The Raiders did give us a couple of gifts but fat ass whitlock has some major beef with Haley and Pioli that he won't let go.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-16-2009, 12:24 AM
Whitlock must think the average fan is too dumb to understand the personnel failures that caused this team to be so bad, and instead only focuses on the coaching failures.

Hell, Belichick showed tonight what a lack of faith in your team will cause you to do. It's obvious that Haley, like a bad poker player against a pro, doesn't want his team to play it out, he wants to gamble because he thinks his team has a better chance to get lucky than to win with skill.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 12:24 AM
Jason just exposed once again, it's not about the truth or anything remotely approaching the facts. It's about stirring up a shit-storm that drawns people to the paper or the website.

There isn't a chance in hell that Haley would have lost his job with a loss yesterday. He's got a full 2 years IMO. But there's absolutely no chance he'd be gone before the end of the season even in the worst of possible scenarios.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-16-2009, 12:24 AM
Who keeps giving Whitlock a second chance to write the same tired crap every week.

Make your pick in the mock pr0n draft.

Kyle DeLexus
11-16-2009, 12:25 AM
We should've kicked the field goal, no doubt though. That was a dumbass call.

Yes we should have, and Haley owned up to that. Belichick should have punted on 4th down, coaches will make mistakes. The object is to learn from them and grow as a coach. It's his first season, give him some time to grow and learn as a head coach.

Christofire
11-16-2009, 12:25 AM
I think everyone would agree this team isn't a playoff team. Whitlock himself says we have below-average personnel. He should save this argument for the year when Haley turns a potential 9- or 10-win team into a 6-win team with poor decision-making.

Kyle DeLexus
11-16-2009, 12:25 AM
Make your pick in the mock pr0n draft.

Dang forgot I had 2 teams and didn't get a message, pick on it's way.

Count Alex's Wins
11-16-2009, 12:26 AM
Whitlock must think the average fan is too dumb to understand the personnel failures that caused this team to be so bad, and instead only focuses on the coaching failures.
.

No, he's just lazy.

CHENZ A!
11-16-2009, 12:27 AM
isnt it past ur bedtime son

lol ya alarm clock is gna ring rl early 2moro gd nt buddy! :)

CHENZ A!
11-16-2009, 12:31 AM
Yes we should have, and Haley owned up to that. Belichick should have punted on 4th down, coaches will make mistakes. The object is to learn from them and grow as a coach. It's his first season, give him some time to grow and learn as a head coach.

Dude, I'm with that. I'm not saying fire Haley and Pioli or anything, but in this article, Whitlock's analysis is right for once.

88TG88
11-16-2009, 12:39 AM
wtf is this shit

Christofire
11-16-2009, 12:41 AM
What proof does he have of the dedric ward claim, btw?

BryanBusby
11-16-2009, 12:43 AM
Whitlock: Q_Q

ChiefsCountry
11-16-2009, 12:46 AM
Basically Haley is making Herm look like a real coach, which is hard for me to say. And in a round about is what Whitlock is getting at. Haley has made a lot of dumbass decisions and he is lucky that the Raiders fucked up at the end.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 12:49 AM
What pisses me off most about this article and about 1/2 of the vocal critics of this team and the coaches... is that there is obviously room for Haley to grow as a coach. And he's conceded that from the beginning of this process. He's been public about the mistakes he's made.

These remarks made by Whitlock and others aren't made in a genuine suggestion of growth. It's that they've picked sides in a fight. And the enemy is Haley. And when Haley loses, they win.

It's f*cking disgusting to me.

DaWolf
11-16-2009, 12:50 AM
The thing is Whitlock is being such an absolutist about it, and I think he's doing this mainly to prove his futile ego point. Ego does not sit in the shadows behind Bill Belichick for all those years content to let him take the credit. Ego does not get up after the game and talk about making bad decisions and coaching poorly. This whole ego thing is overblown. Coaches may make dumb mistakes, even three time super bowl winning ones, but a lot of that is believing that your guys are going to be able to get that done for you, which is why you practice all week.

It's real easy to sit there and armchair coach like Whitlock and many of us do. But he's being a bit dramatic there with this whole last chance thing. I tend to agree with Haley, when you are 1-7, you have to do some things to try and generate momentum. This team is stuck in a losing culture and it'll take more than playing it safe against the Faiders and hoping they self destruct to get out of that. I definitely agree that some of those calls were bad calls and it was a poorly coached and played game, but that's not the first time we've seen that in this league, and bad calls aren't always made because of ego...

DaWolf
11-16-2009, 12:51 AM
he is lucky that the Raiders ****ed up at the end.

See Schottenheimer, Marty, How I Beat the Raiders...

CHENZ A!
11-16-2009, 12:54 AM
What pisses me off most about this article and about 1/2 of the vocal critics of this team and the coaches... is that there is obviously room for Haley to grow as a coach. And he's conceded that from the beginning of this process. He's been public about the mistakes he's made.

These remarks made by Whitlock and others aren't made in a genuine suggestion of growth. It's that they've picked sides in a fight. And the enemy is Haley. And when Haley loses, they win.

It's f*cking disgusting to me.

Completely agree... Just because you didn't vote for a guy doesn't mean you shouldn't root for him to do well once he's in power.
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Christofire
11-16-2009, 12:56 AM
Haley's decisions didn't cause a fumbled punt, a muffed handoff, a dropped snap, numerous dropped easy passes, and a lot of other gifts we gave the Raiders. A dozen or more player gaffes nearly lost this game for us, not just the three questionable decisions Jason singled out by Haley.

Christofire
11-16-2009, 12:58 AM
What pisses me off most about this article and about 1/2 of the vocal critics of this team and the coaches... is that there is obviously room for Haley to grow as a coach. And he's conceded that from the beginning of this process. He's been public about the mistakes he's made.

These remarks made by Whitlock and others aren't made in a genuine suggestion of growth. It's that they've picked sides in a fight. And the enemy is Haley. And when Haley loses, they win.

It's f*cking disgusting to me.

Jason's larger vendetta is against Pioli, and Haley is his hand-picked guy.

Miles
11-16-2009, 01:00 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/1572416.html

Checking Haley is the responsibility of general manger Scott Pioli, the one person in the organization whose ego is more out of control than Haley’s.


What the what? I realize he is obsessed with Pioli's ego for some reason but what the fuck is Pioli supposed to do to 'check Haley's ego'? Call down and tell him how to coach the team and shit to call? Yeah that's what GM's do. Then Whitlock can write some article about Pioli overriding his coaching staff is showing how his ego is reaching new heights.

BossChief
11-16-2009, 01:03 AM
par for the course for Jason.

another worthless article.

Ya know, if he ever decided too give this regime a chance and spin things a little more positive, he might be allowed an interview or two once in awhile. The way he is playing his cards though, he will be kept as far away from the team as possible.

Its a shame for us as fans, there should be a readable article to read from the local media after a win against a division rival.

What a shame it is for Jason to choose to be so petty!

jAZ
11-16-2009, 01:09 AM
The thing is Whitlock is being such an absolutist about it, and I think he's doing this mainly to prove his futile ego point. Ego does not sit in the shadows behind Bill Belichick for all those years content to let him take the credit. Ego does not get up after the game and talk about making bad decisions and coaching poorly. This whole ego thing is overblown.

It's not merely overblow. It's fabricated, for all the very good reasons you mentioned and many more.

Good post.

Otter
11-16-2009, 01:17 AM
Instead of trying to write something remotely insightful Whitlock once again tries to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Congrats, you're the Jerry Springer of KC Star. You must be proud.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 01:24 AM
Jason's larger vendetta is against Pioli, and Haley is his hand-picked guy.

Yes, agreed it's both.

I have no idea if Haley is the right coach. If he'll grow into the role. If he'll make good decisions in the future. No idea.

But I know that the only reasonable response to the season is to take a wait-and-see approach.

Of course that approach doesn't sell papers... or spawn 100+ post threads. That's boring.

And since Whitlock is paid to move papers and draw clicks with his column, that style obviously wouldn't work.

What I think is screamingly obvious from his articles, though, is that he's an incredibly lazy about his job. I'm sure he's not alone in being lazy. It's a product of the columinst and pundit model of infotainment. I think that quality is what makes playing or coaching in the NYC media so notorious and difficult.

But it might take a true sense of intellectual effort and creativity... to attract an audience without racing to the bottom and inventing artificial garbage to write about.

DaWolf
11-16-2009, 01:25 AM
Jason's larger vendetta is against Pioli, and Haley is his hand-picked guy.

Jason just needs a bad guy. That's how he sells. He's got nowhere to go if he can't paint someone as an a-hole. He's just had so much time going after Carl that he doesn't know any other way of doing it. The whole "I want these guys to succeed, I really do, but here's why they suck" angles are getting a bit redundant.

Jason has already drawn the line in the sand, and the people he will go after are Pioli and any of Pioli's guys (Haley, Cassel) because his own ego won't let him rest until he is able to prove that these guys won't win here. If they don't, then he can go after the next regime. If they do, we'll then he's got nowhere to go. Even with LJ, he never really went after LJ, it was more of a Pioli needs LJ to be a distraction slant. It's like he has a morbid obsession with Pioli.

His articles have pretty much become like sports talk radio. Little substance involved, just going for the reaction...

jAZ
11-16-2009, 01:33 AM
Jason just needs a bad guy. That's how he sells. He's got nowhere to go if he can't paint someone as an a-hole. He's just had so much time going after Carl that he doesn't know any other way of doing it. The whole "I want these guys to succeed, I really do, but here's why they suck" angles are getting a bit redundant.

Jason has already drawn the line in the sand, and the people he will go after are Pioli and any of Pioli's guys (Haley, Cassel) because his own ego won't let him rest until he is able to prove that these guys won't win here. If they don't, then he can go after the next regime. If they do, we'll then he's got nowhere to go. Even with LJ, he never really went after LJ, it was more of a Pioli needs LJ to be a distraction slant. It's like he has a morbid obsession with Pioli.

His articles have pretty much become like sports talk radio. Little substance involved, just going for the reaction...

Yep, particularly the bolded part. JW's a lazy writer. He can be very good. But on a day to day basis... he's just incredibly lazy. And it shows.

DBOSHO
11-16-2009, 01:40 AM
Well at least this isnt exactly like the other articles whitlock puts out or anything...

Count Alex's Wins
11-16-2009, 01:46 AM
Whitlock seriously isn't trying.

He should dig into why LJ was starting all year instead of Charles. Major strike against Haley.

Miles
11-16-2009, 02:15 AM
He should dig into why LJ was starting all year instead of Charles. Major strike against Haley.

Some nice irony in this comment.

Christofire
11-16-2009, 02:22 AM
A little bit of a contradiction in this article, too. Haley supposedly saved his job. Hmmm ... who would be the one firing him? Pioli. But firing Haley would mean admitting that his hand-picked coach was a failure ... and if Pioli has this massive ego we keep hearing about, he'd never do that. The logic of Haley's job being on the line doesn't follow.
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BossChief
11-16-2009, 02:32 AM
Whitlock seriously isn't trying.

He should dig into why LJ was starting all year instead of Charles. Major strike against Haley.

cmon, everyone knows that he couldnt bench LJ after how LJ worked during the offseason.

LJs twitters were the best thing to happen to this team since the day we signed Priest Holmes.

big nasty kcnut
11-16-2009, 02:50 AM
Like i said whitlock blames people instead of writing the positive that people get tired of his shit.

Fruit Ninja
11-16-2009, 02:58 AM
he only told one side of the story, what about the side where the Chiefs dropped alot of passes. What about the part where the Chiefs fumbled the ball on the punt return to give the Raiders good field posession.

He just thinks the KC area fans are stupid and lazy. I used to think Jason was an ok writer at times, but lately, he's really really bad. He needs to find a new angle because this one is complete crap.

I know he likes to be controversial and thinks he can get people to laugh at the Chiefs, but in all honesty, i am just laughing at him because his articles are trainwrecks like the Chiefs.

kstater
11-16-2009, 04:40 AM
Rather than humble himself, Haley is trying to win football games from the sideline.

The nerve of Todd Haley.

Tuckdaddy
11-16-2009, 05:09 AM
We have nothing to lose by going for it. We are playing for nothing but pride. If Bowe had ran the right way it would have been a TD.

TheGuardian
11-16-2009, 05:22 AM
The only part he's right about there is that we should have kicked the field goal. Other than that the article was pretty stupid.

And the "thinking outside of the box" comment to me, was more about how they started playing the game like they were way behind from the beginning. Calling more deep routes and taking more chances. Had the WR's held on better and we not gotten screwed out of the obvious first down Mark Bradley made then game isn't even that close.

As far as DHB dropping a ball, well that's not new the guy had butter fingers in college and so far has had them in the pros (really isn't his fault the guy has baby sized hands).

the Talking Can
11-16-2009, 06:02 AM
re: ego


see: Whitlock



that is embarrassing

wild1
11-16-2009, 07:22 AM
Whitlock embarrasses himself once again.

ForeverChiefs58
11-16-2009, 07:25 AM
We out played the raiders, and had we lost it would have been because of coaching. Lucky for us they are the raiders and always shoot themselves in the foot in the end.

The Bad Guy
11-16-2009, 07:26 AM
Whitlock must think the average fan is too dumb to understand the personnel failures that caused this team to be so bad, and instead only focuses on the coaching failures.

Hell, Belichick showed tonight what a lack of faith in your team will cause you to do. It's obvious that Haley, like a bad poker player against a pro, doesn't want his team to play it out, he wants to gamble because he thinks his team has a better chance to get lucky than to win with skill.

100% spot on.

I disagree with what Belichick did, but it speaks volumes about how much faith he had in his defense. Same with Haley, he knows he doesn't have shit, but he needs to maximize the touchdown opportunities because it's unlikely that:
A) his defense can consistently get stops
B) his offense will see the redzone much.

Mr. Laz
11-16-2009, 07:28 AM
Wow. Could Jason BE more childish?
not really ... but i imagine he'll sure try.

Dinny Blues
11-16-2009, 07:30 AM
I am a Whitlock fan. He may not knock every column out of the park, but I still look forward to his next one.

I would like to see him trade his therapist for a drinking buddy.

B. A. Homer is no Slats Grobnik, and Whitlock is no Royko. But I think Grobnik could help him alot more than Homer.

My $.02

Dinny

milkman
11-16-2009, 07:36 AM
We out played the raiders, and had we lost it would have been because of coaching. Lucky for us they are the raiders and always shoot themselves in the foot in the end.

It was a cripple fight.

We only out played the Raiders because Tom Cable kept putting the ball in the hands of Russell when we couldn't stop the run.

BigRedChief
11-16-2009, 07:39 AM
The Raiders did give us a couple of gifts but fat ass whitlock has some major beef with Haley and Pioli that he won't let go.And not a mention of Bellicheck's decision to go for a 4th and 3 on their own 28 with a lead and possibly give the ball to Peyton with 2 mintues left for the win? Does that mean Bellicheck no longer knows how to coach? Should be fired? Coaches make mistakes, just like players. Learn and move on, you don't learn, the team moves on without you.

beach tribe
11-16-2009, 07:44 AM
Whitlock must think the average fan is too dumb to understand the personnel failures that caused this team to be so bad, and instead only focuses on the coaching failures.

Hell, Belichick showed tonight what a lack of faith in your team will cause you to do. It's obvious that Haley, like a bad poker player against a pro, doesn't want his team to play it out, he wants to gamble because he thinks his team has a better chance to get lucky than to win with skill.
Very nice post.
Can you imagine what goes through Haleys head when he watches film of the games afterword. Nobody can be expected to make sound decisions after being exposed to a truth so frightening.

Jerm
11-16-2009, 07:54 AM
So we go on the road, beat a division rival (I know its the Raiders), and see some positive signs yet Whitlock still completely buries Haley and the team?

Funny how he always spouts off about "ego" and bashes Pioli/Haley for it yet he can't let his ego get outta the way enough to write a positive article which is all we should see right now.

What a friggin hypocrite.

Pioli and Haley can't win with this guy...if they lose they're the worst regime ever and if they win its because they backed into it and the game was handed to them. Whatever.

This team needs wins and I for one could fucking care less how they do it.

Grow the fuck up Jason....seriously.
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LaChapelle
11-16-2009, 07:55 AM
tunnel vision
Who's really got the ego problem here?

WhitiE
11-16-2009, 08:08 AM
Haley's decisions didn't cause a fumbled punt, a muffed handoff, a dropped snap, numerous dropped easy passes, and a lot of other gifts we gave the Raiders. A dozen or more player gaffes nearly lost this game for us, not just the three questionable decisions Jason singled out by Haley.

thread over....

Jack
11-16-2009, 08:38 AM
He's right.

Don't agree. I can't get much past a sentence or two with whitlock. It's a game of diminishing returns.

You see, he implies things like Haley would be canned had the team not won this game. Where does he get such insight? Certainly it isn't because he is part of the inner circle. Indeed, he has been mostly ignored by the Chiefs management. Therefore he attempts to vindicate himself by writing with such inflammatory rhetoric.

No doubt he reads the Planet. How else could he judge his impact? But should he have the fortitude to post here, he would be the most savaged participant of this forum.

Dayze
11-16-2009, 08:40 AM
we could win the Super Bowl and Whitless would complain.

Radar Chief
11-16-2009, 08:40 AM
So if I’ve got this straight, the Chiefs didn’t win it’s the Raiders that forfeited and the reason for that is Haley’s ego? :spock:

You’re sad, Jason.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 08:53 AM
Completely agree... Just because you didn't vote for a guy doesn't mean you shouldn't root for him to do well once he's in power.
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I voted for Haley. I was the first to vote for Haley.

You guys are clueless. Had the Raiders come back and won that game, Haley has zero credibility from that point forward. The rest of his coaching tenure is a death watch.

Monty Beisel got cut for not downing a punt. Bradley got benched for failing to stretch for a first down. Haley damn near threw away a game with stupidity. And it's not the first dumb decision he's made.

milkman
11-16-2009, 08:53 AM
Don't agree. I can't get much past a sentence or two with whitlock. It's a game of diminishing returns.

You see, he implies things like Haley would be canned had the team not won this game. Where does he get such insight? Certainly it isn't because he is part of the inner circle. Indeed, he has been mostly ignored by the Chiefs management. Therefore he attempts to vindicate himself by writing with such inflammatory rhetoric.

No doubt he reads the Planet. How else could he judge his impact? But should he have the fortitude to post here, he would be the most savaged participant of this forum.

Whitlock has posted here, and fairly recently the last time.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=6249589#post6249589

JASONSAUTO
11-16-2009, 08:55 AM
Whitlock has posted here, and fairly recently the last time.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=6249589#post6249589

ROFL actually the last time was the post before yours:D

milkman
11-16-2009, 08:57 AM
I voted for Haley. I was the first to vote for Haley.

You guys are clueless. Had the Raiders come back and won that game, Haley has zero credibility from that point forward. The rest of his coaching tenure is a death watch.

Monty Beisel got cut for not downing a punt. Bradley got benched for failing to stretch for a first down. Haley damn near threw away a game with stupidity. And it's not the first dumb decision he's made.

We get that Haley has made some dumbass decisions since being handed the reigns, but some of us are willing to give him some time to grow and learn.

And I highly doubt that Pioli will be ready to quit on him yet.

milkman
11-16-2009, 08:58 AM
ROFL actually the last time was the post before yours:D

Saw that.

I was searching for the link, and when I found it and added to my response, he had just posted.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 08:59 AM
thread over....

I will say that you might easily pin those player mistakes on the coaching too. Why are the players screwing up like that?

At this point they have to put it behind them, take then win and get ready, but those things might be (partly) on Haley.

I say this as a "wait-and-seer".

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:00 AM
Don't agree. I can't get much past a sentence or two with whitlock. It's a game of diminishing returns.

You see, he implies things like Haley would be canned had the team not won this game. Where does he get such insight? Certainly it isn't because he is part of the inner circle. Indeed, he has been mostly ignored by the Chiefs management. Therefore he attempts to vindicate himself by writing with such inflammatory rhetoric.

No doubt he reads the Planet. How else could he judge his impact? But should he have the fortitude to post here, he would be the most savaged participant of this forum.

Typical of a poster here. Clueless.

Alton deFlat
11-16-2009, 09:00 AM
Come on Jason, if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 09:01 AM
I voted for Haley. I was the first to vote for Haley.

You guys are clueless. Had the Raiders come back and won that game, Haley has zero credibility from that point forward. The rest of his coaching tenure is a death watch.

Monty Beisel got cut for not downing a punt. Bradley got benched for failing to stretch for a first down. Haley damn near threw away a game with stupidity. And it's not the first dumb decision he's made.

I am curious what you think Jason but some of his decisions have been pretty stupid and I am wondering if his offensive coordinator side of his brain is over riding his "head coach" side.

Which is why I hope he relinquishes that duty next year and just focuses on being the head coach.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 09:02 AM
I voted for Haley. I was the first to vote for Haley.

You guys are clueless. Had the Raiders come back and won that game, Haley has zero credibility from that point forward. The rest of his coaching tenure is a death watch.

Monty Beisel got cut for not downing a punt. Bradley got benched for failing to stretch for a first down. Haley damn near threw away a game with stupidity. And it's not the first dumb decision he's made.

Rookies with potential don't get cut for making mistakes.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:03 AM
We get that Haley has made some dumbass decisions since being handed the reigns, but some of us are willing to give him some time to grow and learn.

And I highly doubt that Pioli will be ready to quit on him yet.

The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem. But I'll take the blame.

I wrote: "His CREDIBLE tenure as head coach" would be over... What that means is the rest of his coaching tenure would be a death watch. When will Haley be fired? End of the year? Midway through next season?

I like Todd Haley. I'd like for him to succeed. But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

Coogs
11-16-2009, 09:05 AM
We get that Haley has made some dumbass decisions since being handed the reigns, but some of us are willing to give him some time to grow and learn.

And I highly doubt that Pioli will be ready to quit on him yet.

I could be wrong here, but didn't Haley do the same thing less than a month ago that sort of came back to/or could have come back to haunt us?

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 09:08 AM
The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem. But I'll take the blame.

I wrote: "His CREDIBLE tenure as head coach" would be over... What that means is the rest of his coaching tenure would be a death watch. When will Haley be fired? End of the year? Midway through next season?

I like Todd Haley. I'd like for him to succeed. But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

I understood it perfectly but I don't think Pioli would fire him after 1 season.

The Pats were 5-11 in 2000 which was the first year of Belichick and Pioli and they had a better group of players than the Chiefs had.

ChiTown
11-16-2009, 09:09 AM
The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem. But I'll take the blame.

I wrote: "His CREDIBLE tenure as head coach" would be over... What that means is the rest of his coaching tenure would be a death watch. When will Haley be fired? End of the year? Midway through next season?

I like Todd Haley. I'd like for him to succeed. But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

Here's your problem, Jason:

You think EVERYONE else is clueless, while you hold some high ground on clarity because you write for the local paper. BFD, seriously. Your opinion is about as valid as mine - except I make more money than you.:D

jAZ
11-16-2009, 09:11 AM
But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

Yes you are. You pick and choose which "obvious" you ignore.

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:11 AM
The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem. But I'll take the blame.

I wrote: "His CREDIBLE tenure as head coach" would be over... What that means is the rest of his coaching tenure would be a death watch. When will Haley be fired? End of the year? Midway through next season?

I like Todd Haley. I'd like for him to succeed. But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

No, the point wasn't to subtle.

His "credible tenure" in whose eyes?

Yours and mine?

The players?

Scott Pioli, or even Clark Hunt?

At the end of the day, what you or I think doesn't matter one whit.

It's what organization thinks that matters, and I haven't seen any hint that they think his credibility as the HC is under question.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:12 AM
Rookies with potential don't get cut for making mistakes.

Show me this potential? Point me to the decisions and coaching style that give you confidence he's headed toward being a good head coach. Has there been some coaching innovation like what Sparano did with the Wildcat? Who is the player who has flourished under his regime and looked like the kind of playmaker this team will win with? I'm sorry Charles doesn't qualify yet. Neither does Tamba Hali and his 3.5 sacks.

Right now, Haley's claim to fame is he could be a damn good Jenny Craig counselor.

I want Haley to succeed. I actually like the guy. We're the same age. We could get along great. He's very nice to me. He gave me great advice about what to do for my back yesterday after the game. You guys have no clue. My criticism isn't personal.

I just don't see it. And neither do you if you're honest.

mrbiggz
11-16-2009, 09:12 AM
Haley went for it on fourth down because he felt the raiders were starting to take over the game with their running game.

The problem was with the fourth down call. He probably should had a simple dump off pass to a back out of the back field or just pounding it with Kolby smith in a goal line formation with a FB.

The raiders screwed up by not running it down our throats and going to the backup earlier in the game. If they would have done that then we probably for sure would have lost.

The Bad Guy
11-16-2009, 09:12 AM
The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem. But I'll take the blame.

I wrote: "His CREDIBLE tenure as head coach" would be over... What that means is the rest of his coaching tenure would be a death watch. When will Haley be fired? End of the year? Midway through next season?

I like Todd Haley. I'd like for him to succeed. But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

Your column has been the same message over, and over, and over again. It's hilarious how you try to come on here talking like you like Haley and Pioli.

A huge character guy like yourself having double talk? For your newspaper audience, you want to pin yourself as the bad guy to sell more papers. On here, you want to come across like you were behind these guys from day one, which is a crock.

Just admit you are, and continue to be butthurt over Brian Waters getting yelled at in the principals office and we can move on.

Speaking of Waters, ask him if he donates money to Willie Roaf's charity for Willie helping him get a contract that he never would have gotten without him.

DumbHillbillies
11-16-2009, 09:13 AM
The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem. But I'll take the blame.

I wrote: "His CREDIBLE tenure as head coach" would be over... What that means is the rest of his coaching tenure would be a death watch. When will Haley be fired? End of the year? Midway through next season?

I like Todd Haley. I'd like for him to succeed. But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

As horrible as a loss to the raiders would have been no way would that had sealed a firing. No matter what happens this season pioli is going to bring back haley next year. Next year he has the potential to win more games and coach better. I'm not a big haley fan but that is the reality.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:13 AM
Here's your problem, Jason:

- except I make more money than you.:D

Yet another clueless statement.

The Bad Guy
11-16-2009, 09:13 AM
Show me this potential? Point me to the decisions and coaching style that give you confidence he's headed toward being a good head coach. Has there been some coaching innovation like what Sparano did with the Wildcat? Who is the player who has flourished under his regime and looked like the kind of playmaker this team will win with? I'm sorry Charles doesn't qualify yet. Neither does Tamba Hali and his 3.5 sacks.

Right now, Haley's claim to fame is he could be a damn good Jenny Craig counselor.

I want Haley to succeed. I actually like the guy. We're the same age. We could get along great. He's very nice to me. He gave me great advice about what to do for my back yesterday after the game. You guys have no clue. My criticism isn't personal.

I just don't see it. And neither do you if you're honest.

Did you get along great with Drew Bledsoe before you wrote your sign?

the Talking Can
11-16-2009, 09:15 AM
The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem. But I'll take the blame.

I wrote: "His CREDIBLE tenure as head coach" would be over... What that means is the rest of his coaching tenure would be a death watch. When will Haley be fired? End of the year? Midway through next season?

I like Todd Haley. I'd like for him to succeed. But I'm not going to ignore what's obvious.

your article reads like a 15 yr old posting about an ex on facebook....

and the logic of "well, if we would of lost it would have been different..." is particularly revealing about your motives. I mean, really? All you can think to say after our second win is, "Well, if we would have lost..."

And you throwing around the words "ego" and "credibility" is hilarious.

Chiefnj2
11-16-2009, 09:15 AM
1. Pioli has done a poor job as GM.
2. Haley has done a poor job as HC and OC.
3. Whitlock is doing a poor job as a journalist the last month.

mrbiggz
11-16-2009, 09:16 AM
Hey Whitlock,

big fan of yours and Tech N9ne, anyways, can you shed some light on the demotion of Dedric Ward and what exactly happened in the exchange he had with Haley when he tried to "check him"

DumbHillbillies
11-16-2009, 09:16 AM
Yet another clueless statement.

Cakin patna

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:16 AM
No, the point wasn't to subtle.

His "credible tenure" in whose eyes?

Yours and mine?

The players?

Scott Pioli, or even Clark Hunt?

At the end of the day, what you or I think doesn't matter one whit.

It's what organization thinks that matters, and I haven't seen any hint that they think his credibility as the HC is under question.

You might have missed this. But it's my column. All the opinions stated are in my eyes. No mystery here.

Coogs
11-16-2009, 09:17 AM
Haley went for it on fourth down because he felt the raiders were starting to take over the game with their running game.

If we kick the FG then, AND the Raiders go down and score a TD at that point, we would have only been down by 1. FG wins it then. The other scenario leaves us needing a TD to win.

I like Haley's gambler approach. But there are times like that when you need to take the sure thing... as Succup has pretty much been a sure bet.

Deberg_1990
11-16-2009, 09:18 AM
JWhit,

How come you were never as hard on Herm as you are on Haley??

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:18 AM
The fact is, Haley has made a lot of mistakes.

But he's in his first year as a HC with a team so devoid of talent that even if some of those bad decisions had worked out, it's still very likely those game lost would have been lost anyway.

He gets the benefit of learning on the job when his mistakes while learning have very little affect on the big picture.

The Bad Guy
11-16-2009, 09:19 AM
JWhit,

How come you were never as hard on Herm as you are on Haley??

He'll come on here and say he was, but never, ever was he that hard on Herm.

He was hard on Dick Curl, but big freaking deal.

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:23 AM
You might have missed this. But it's my column. All the opinions stated are in my eyes. No mystery here.

And my point is that your opinion, like mine, means absolutely jack.

The manner in which you presented your opinion, however, could easily be misinterprted as the writing of someone that has inside insight.

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 09:24 AM
Show me this potential? Point me to the decisions and coaching style that give you confidence he's headed toward being a good head coach. Has there been some coaching innovation like what Sparano did with the Wildcat? Who is the player who has flourished under his regime and looked like the kind of playmaker this team will win with? I'm sorry Charles doesn't qualify yet. Neither does Tamba Hali and his 3.5 sacks.



Succup is the MVP :p

DumbHillbillies
11-16-2009, 09:24 AM
He'll come on here and say he was, but never, ever was he that hard on Herm.

He was hard on Dick Curl, but big freaking deal.

I sort of disagree because I remember him asking herm in a presser "Do you worry about your job security in an empty arrowhead and losing this much" Not exact quote. ROFL

Cosmos
11-16-2009, 09:25 AM
He'll come on here and say he was, but never, ever was he that hard on Herm.

He was hard on Dick Curl, but big freaking deal.

Hmmmm.. What color are Curl, Pioli, Haley, Peterson.... oh and Herm?

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 09:26 AM
The fact is, Haley has made a lot of mistakes.

But he's in his first year as a HC with a team so devoid of talent that even if some of those bad decisions had worked out, it's still very likely those game lost would have been lost anyway.

He gets the benefit of learning on the job when his mistakes while learning have very little affect on the big picture.

That is the way I look at it as well. I would be shocked if he got fired this year but I am expecting changes to the coaching staff.

Deberg_1990
11-16-2009, 09:28 AM
The point in my column was perhaps too subtle or maybe this group has a comprehension problem.

Oh thats nice...

Way to talk down to your readers.

Rausch
11-16-2009, 09:33 AM
When Haley acknowledged his gambling nature, he added that it was important for his assistant coaches to “check him” when he’s “acting a fool.” Haley specifically mentioned assistant head coach Maurice Carthon.

Good luck with that job, Mo. Chan Gailey got fired, and receivers coach Dedric Ward got demoted for trying to “check” Haley.

Best point in the article.

Haley: "Hey guys, it's my way or the ****ing highway!

Oh, and I do stupid $3it sometimes. It's your job to make sure I don't..."

:spock:

Jack
11-16-2009, 09:36 AM
Typical of a poster here. Clueless.

First of all, I will apologize for my claim that you do not have the fortitude to post here if indeed this is really you. I am not convinced of this entirely.

At any rate, do not disguise your intent by mincing your own words. Haley's "credible" tenure as coach has desolved for many Chief's faithful some time ago. To me, it is case of laying your own nest if Haley is dumped at any time in the foreseeable future and your intent of casting down aspersions.

I sense your self-credibility lay in the perceived sanctity of your own words. If this is the case, you fall short of being objective. You consistent berating of the term only shows a lack of imagination for the field of journalism.

So enjoy the coals upon which you tread.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:37 AM
JWhit,

How come you were never as hard on Herm as you are on Haley??

A fair but inaccurate question.

Herm came to KC with a resume. He'd had success in New York.

Herm backed a God awful team into the playoffs his first year. Despite that, I shredded Herm for bringing Dick Curl to town, clock management issues and Curl's credentials as a QB coach. I believe Herm won 9 games his first season. I was still critical. Herm couldn't figure me out. Herm went out of his way befriending the media. I stayed away from Herm because I don't like or need to be buddy-buddy with a so-so football coach. I'm very predictable when it comes to my dealings with coaches. You win big, I love you and invite you to have dinner with my mother at Christmas (Roy Williams, Bill Snyder, Bill Self).

It's a myth that I was not critical of Edwards. I wish you guys could talk with Herm about this or the Chiefs PR staff. Or just read my columns after Chiefs games during Herm's tenure. Was I as hard on Edwards as I have been on Haley? Probably not. Edwards has more of a resume. Edwards did not enter KC with an arrogant, "I'm God's gift to coaching" attitude and make as many silly decisions such as pissing off his one good offensive linemen, cutting a solid safety to make room for Mike Clown.

And Herm and Carl Peterson were not on the same page Herm's last two years. It was easier to separate Herm from Peterson. Herm didn't want to resign LJ. Herm didn't participate in pissing off Jared Allen.

Herm and Haley worked in two different situations. There's a stupid insinuation that I was "nice" to Herm. It's a joke spread by the clueless or bigoted who think I favored him because he was black or nice to the media. There's zero history of that in my work at the KC Star.

I watched Herm's debut on ESPN and wrote a column about how terrible he was and how he wasn't going to work on ESPN. Bob Gretz and others cried that I was unfair and you just need to give the rookie broadcaster time to grow into the job. Now everyone pretty much agrees Herm has been a failure on ESPN.

I'm hoping Haley turns it around. But I'm not seeing the signs.

HemiEd
11-16-2009, 09:38 AM
Glad to see that jwhit dropped the Egoli stuff, and called Scott Pioli by his actual name. Excellent.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:39 AM
Hmmmm.. What color are Curl, Pioli, Haley, Peterson.... oh and Herm?

This is comedy.

BigMeatballDave
11-16-2009, 09:41 AM
Typical of a poster here. Clueless.Pot, meet Kettle...

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:43 AM
Glad to see that jwhit dropped the Egoli stuff, and called Scott Pioli by his actual name. Excellent.

Egoli hasn't gone anywhere. Just didn't need it yesterday. People around the league love the nickname. Had two people mention it to me yesterday in Oakland. And I'm talking about people who work in the league.

keg in kc
11-16-2009, 09:44 AM
Shame we won, it would've been much easier to get a good column out after a loss.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:44 AM
I'm still waiting on the list of things that point to Haley being a huge success.

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:45 AM
A fair but inaccurate question.

Herm came to KC with a resume. He'd had success in New York.

Herm backed a God awful team into the playoffs his first year. Despite that, I shredded Herm for bringing Dick Curl to town, clock management issues and Curl's credentials as a QB coach. I believe Herm won 9 games his first season. I was still critical. Herm couldn't figure me out. Herm went out of his way befriending the media. I stayed away from Herm because I don't like or need to be buddy-buddy with a so-so football coach. I'm very predictable when it comes to my dealings with coaches. You win big, I love you and invite you to have dinner with my mother at Christmas (Roy Williams, Bill Snyder, Bill Self).

It's a myth that I was not critical of Edwards. I wish you guys could talk with Herm about this or the Chiefs PR staff. Or just read my columns after Chiefs games during Herm's tenure. Was I as hard on Edwards as I have been on Haley? Probably not. Edwards has more of a resume. Edwards did not enter KC with an arrogant, "I'm God's gift to coaching" attitude and make as many silly decisions such as pissing off his one good offensive linemen, cutting a solid safety to make room for Mike Clown.

And Herm and Carl Peterson were not on the same page Herm's last two years. It was easier to separate Herm from Peterson. Herm didn't want to resign LJ. Herm didn't participate in pissing off Jared Allen.

Herm and Haley worked in two different situations. There's a stupid insinuation that I was "nice" to Herm. It's a joke spread by the clueless or bigoted who think I favored him because he was black or nice to the media. There's zero history of that in my work at the KC Star.

I watched Herm's debut on ESPN and wrote a column about how terrible he was and how he wasn't going to work on ESPN. Bob Gretz and others cried that I was unfair and you just need to give the rookie broadcaster time to grow into the job. Now everyone pretty much agrees Herm has been a failure on ESPN.

I'm hoping Haley turns it around. But I'm not seeing the signs.

Herman ****ing Edwards' resume includes getting into the playoffs with another coach's players and consistently being so conservative that he puts his QBs in harm's way, until he finally destroys a franchise with poor coaching.

He left the Jets in far worse shape than he found them.

I will give him credit for making the decision to blow up the Chiefs roster and build through the draft, but I never once thought he was the guy for the job.

He's a terrible coach who had no business working as teh HC of an NFL franchise.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:45 AM
Shame we won, it would've been much easier to get a good column out after a loss.

My columns are good win or lose.

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:46 AM
Egoli hasn't gone anywhere. Just didn't need it yesterday. People around the league love the nickname. Had two people mention it to me yesterday in Oakland. And I'm talking about people who work in the league.

So people around the league are equally unimaginitive as you?

The Bad Guy
11-16-2009, 09:47 AM
Egoli hasn't gone anywhere. Just didn't need it yesterday. People around the league love the nickname. Had two people mention it to me yesterday in Oakland. And I'm talking about people who work in the league.

Who has a bigger ego than you?

I could also care less what type of ego Scott Pioli has. You seem to be the only one fixated on that.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:48 AM
So people around the league are equally unimaginitive as you?

Come on, man. Try harder.

Rausch
11-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Your honest opinion Jwhit: do you think the talent the Chiefs signed/traded for this year was more of what Pioli wanted or what Haley wanted?

Is this team built more in Haley's image, Pioli's, or a 50/50 split?...

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:50 AM
I'm still waiting on the list of things that point to Haley being a huge success.

I think you need to wait longer.

It's pretty obvious that he's in over his head with all the responsibilities he's taken on as a rookie HC.

Let's see how he manages the job of HC when he hires an OC that shares his philosophy.

Jack
11-16-2009, 09:50 AM
My columns are good win or lose.

Wow!

Tell me whitlock, its it true you sleep under the original Shroud of Turin?

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:51 AM
Who has a bigger ego than you?

I could also care less what type of ego Scott Pioli has. You seem to be the only one fixated on that.

You are aware that Pioli and I have two different jobs?

I'm the only one in the media fixated on Pioli's ego. People who work in football believe his ego is going to play a role in his failure as a GM.

Rausch
11-16-2009, 09:51 AM
Let's see how he manages the job of HC when he hires an OC that shares his philosophy.

You think he will without being forced to?...

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:52 AM
Come on, man. Try harder.

Try harder to do what?

Be honest?

I can't be any more honest than that.

OK, maybe I can.

The nickname sucks ass, and anyone that thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot.

How's that?

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 09:52 AM
A fair but inaccurate question.

Herm came to KC with a resume. He'd had success in New York.

Herm backed a God awful team into the playoffs his first year. Despite that, I shredded Herm for bringing Dick Curl to town, clock management issues and Curl's credentials as a QB coach. I believe Herm won 9 games his first season. I was still critical. Herm couldn't figure me out. Herm went out of his way befriending the media. I stayed away from Herm because I don't like or need to be buddy-buddy with a so-so football coach. I'm very predictable when it comes to my dealings with coaches. You win big, I love you and invite you to have dinner with my mother at Christmas (Roy Williams, Bill Snyder, Bill Self).

It's a myth that I was not critical of Edwards. I wish you guys could talk with Herm about this or the Chiefs PR staff. Or just read my columns after Chiefs games during Herm's tenure. Was I as hard on Edwards as I have been on Haley? Probably not. Edwards has more of a resume. Edwards did not enter KC with an arrogant, "I'm God's gift to coaching" attitude and make as many silly decisions such as pissing off his one good offensive linemen, cutting a solid safety to make room for Mike Clown.

And Herm and Carl Peterson were not on the same page Herm's last two years. It was easier to separate Herm from Peterson. Herm didn't want to resign LJ. Herm didn't participate in pissing off Jared Allen.

Herm and Haley worked in two different situations. There's a stupid insinuation that I was "nice" to Herm. It's a joke spread by the clueless or bigoted who think I favored him because he was black or nice to the media. There's zero history of that in my work at the KC Star.

I watched Herm's debut on ESPN and wrote a column about how terrible he was and how he wasn't going to work on ESPN. Bob Gretz and others cried that I was unfair and you just need to give the rookie broadcaster time to grow into the job. Now everyone pretty much agrees Herm has been a failure on ESPN.

I'm hoping Haley turns it around. But I'm not seeing the signs.

Herm also had a history of being a horrible coach before he got here while Haley is a rookie head coach.

And it is laughable that he didn't make any bad decisions when he came here. He single handily dismantled the #1 offense in the NFL because they scored too fast for him. They went from #1 to #16 all because of Herm. What a joke. Let's not forget how Herm pissed off the fucking QB. JFC

Ok this is fucking stupid how arrogant was Herm to destroy this offense because he thought he knew better. The guy didn't have a competent offense in NY and he comes here and tears the #1 offense down because he thinks he is a offensive guru. Fuck me running

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:53 AM
Your honest opinion Jwhit: do you think the talent the Chiefs signed/traded for this year was more of what Pioli wanted or what Haley wanted?

Is this team built more in Haley's image, Pioli's, or a 50/50 split?...


Pioli is running this organization. Haley makes decisions on game days and during practice. Everything else is Pioli's way.

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:57 AM
You think he will without being forced to?...

I can only speculate, but I honestly don't believe that he ever actually wanted the responsibilty of OC and playcaller along with the responsibilty of HC.

He was put in a tenuous position in keeping Chan gailey at Clark's behest, and was left in an even more tenuous position when it became apparent that he and Gailey coudn't get on the same page, at which time Hunt allowed him to fire him.

But at that point it was far too late to bring anyone else in.

I do believe, however, firing Gailey (or reassigning him) was mistake, even with the philosophical differences.

He needed to let things run it's course and fire Gailey after the season.

This is all JMO, of course.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:57 AM
Dirk, can you read? Can you comprehend?

Rausch
11-16-2009, 09:59 AM
I can only speculate, but I honestly don't believe that he ever actually wanted the responsibilty of OC and playcaller along with the responsibilty of HC.

He was put in a tenuous position in keeping Chan gailey at Clark's behest, and was left in an even more tenuous position when it became apparent that he and Gailey coudn't get on the same page, at which time Hunt allowed him to fire him.

But at that point it was far too late to bring anyone else in.

I do believe, however, firing Gailey (or reassigning him) was mistake, even with the philosophical differences.

He needed to let things run it's course and fire Gailey after the season.

This is all JMO, of course.

I think most would agree that Chan got more production out of a less talented offense.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 09:59 AM
I can only speculate, but I honestly don't believe that he ever actually wanted the responsibilty of OC and playcaller along with the responsibilty of HC.

He was put in a tenuous position in keeping Chan gailey at Clark's behest, and was left in an even more tenuous position when it became apparent that he and Gailey coudn't get on the same page, at which time Hunt allowed him to fire him.

.

Man, I wish I had this kind of insider information to work with. Then maybe you guys would respect me.

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:59 AM
Herm also had a history of being a horrible coach before he got here while Haley is a rookie head coach.

And it is laughable that he didn't make any bad decisions when he came here. He single handily dismantled the #1 offense in the NFL because they scored too fast for him. They went from #1 to #16 all because of Herm. What a joke. Let's not forget how Herm pissed off the ****ing QB. JFC

Ok this is ****ing stupid how arrogant was Herm to destroy this offense because he thought he knew better. The guy didn't have a competent offense in NY and he comes here and tears the #1 offense down because he thinks he is a offensive guru. **** me running

While Herman fucking Edwards deserves some of the blame for the rapid decline of the offense, Roaf's retirement and other problems along the line had as much to do with that as herman fucking Edwards.

The offense under Dick and Al only succeeded at the level it did because of superior O-Line play, and Herman fucking Edward's Chiefs never had that.

keg in kc
11-16-2009, 09:59 AM
My columns are good win or lose.Well, if one thing's clear, it's that you're an authority on superciliousness and could certainly recognize Pioli as a kindred spirit.

milkman
11-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Man, I wish I had this kind of insider information to work with. Then maybe you guys would respect me.

Don't be a disingenuous prick.

booger
11-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Man, I wish I had this kind of insider information to work with. Then maybe you guys would respect me.

so the rumor you are joining forces w/ nick athan is really true?

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Dirk, can you read? Can you comprehend?

Comprehend what Jason? Herm was so arrogant he totally dismantled the #1 offense in the NFL when he was hired and pissed off the starting QB?

wild1
11-16-2009, 10:02 AM
herm had success in New York.. doing what? Taking someone else's team to the postseason? He did that here too.

Bottom line, Herm left both NYJ and KC in the same condition when he left - ruined, and neither franchise has yet recovered.

milkman
11-16-2009, 10:05 AM
herm had success in New York.. doing what? Taking someone else's team to the postseason? He did that here too.

Bottom line, Herm left both NYJ and KC in the same condition when he left - ruined, and neither franchise has yet recovered.

I disagree.

Herman fucking Edwards did the right thing in blowing up the roster.
He just wasn't the guy that should be doing it.

Had Clark Hunt brought in a GM and HC that continued the follow the path that Herman fucking Edwards started down, rather than blow it up and start all over again, this franchise would be in better shape today than it is in.

booger
11-16-2009, 10:08 AM
i heard on 610 that jwhit is writing

going rogue, the nick athan story.

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 10:11 AM
Dirk, can you read? Can you comprehend?

I am still waiting on what I am supposed to comprehend.

I am curious Jason do you think Herm was arrogant when he was first hired?

wild1
11-16-2009, 10:15 AM
I disagree.

Herman ****ing Edwards did the right thing in blowing up the roster.
He just wasn't the guy that should be doing it.

Not every decision he ever made was wrong (despite what it seems like, from watching him coach in games for 3 years). That doesn't mean he had any business being a head coach in the NFL.

His winning percentage as a head coach is 42% and his playoff winning percentage is 33%. He sucks. The bottom line is that if you hire Herman Edwards your franchise will be s*** in 3-5 years. It's a proven fact.

Rain Man
11-16-2009, 10:17 AM
Why is it being called a bad decision to have Succop try a 52-yard field goal? He's been good on the long-range field goals, and I don't recall any mention of wind. I would've had Succop kick that field goal, and I'm a football genius.

KCUnited
11-16-2009, 10:19 AM
Why is it being called a bad decision to have Succop try a 52-yard field goal? He's been good on the long-range field goals, and I don't recall any mention of wind. I would've had Succop kick that field goal, and I'm a football genius.
Haley called it a bad decision after the game, said he would punt for field position if he could do it over.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 10:21 AM
My criticism isn't personal.

Of course it's not. It's business. It's eyeballs and advertisers and a paycheck. It's harder to generate those things by taking a "wait and see" tone in your articles. But that's what is necessary given the outside circumstances. The owners, the GM, the fans all need to take the long view with this team. Of course, the media's business strategy and business cycle doesn't fit with that schedule.

But it's definately not personal. No doubt.

Show me this potential? Point me to the decisions and coaching style that give you confidence he's headed toward being a good head coach. Has there been some coaching innovation like what Sparano did with the Wildcat? Who is the player who has flourished under his regime and looked like the kind of playmaker this team will win with? I'm sorry Charles doesn't qualify yet. Neither does Tamba Hali and his 3.5 sacks.

Right now, Haley's claim to fame is he could be a damn good Jenny Craig counselor.

...

I just don't see it. And neither do you if you're honest.

You are confusing current sucess with future potential. And to be honest, I'm not the person to give you a point by point list of facts that demonstrate a coaches potential. There are others here that can probably do that.

But I'll say a few things.


I have a lot of confidence in Pioli and his judgement. And short of some sort of Mackovick-like player revolt (and with the limited talent, even in that case), you *have* to take a wait-and-see approach to *everything* he does. And by proxy, the same it true for Haley.

That doesn't mean you can't be critical of specific moves or choices. But you can't draw long-run conclusions from *anything* that happens this season.

Of course, again, that sort of patience doesn't translate well to selling ad space along side your columns.
<br><br>
Pioli and Haley are following a proven playbook for building a competitive franchise, one rooted in the Parcells/Belechick school. And the things that you seem to be objecting to in general, are really foundations of that approach. Focus on building a culture (something that evolves over time, unless you get lucky with a team filled with specific personalities).

And clearly a big part of that was to come in and get rid of any players who might threaten that cultural shift because of their gravitas, influence and an interest in protecting *their* stature. That's why I have *no* problem getting rid of talent like Tony Gonzalez or risking upsetting Will Sheilds. And it's also why I understand passing on a QB like Sanchez in favor of a guy like Cassel or favoring a guy like Vrable over a guy like DJ.

It makes *perfect* sense to me.

Tear it all down, and take your time building it back up the right way, using people who might be a lesser talent, but play a strategic part in the long-run process because they have proven they embrace the new mentality and have proven they can be leaders during the process. And that quality is *far* more important in the short and/or long run than this or that talented player might be in the short and/or long run.
<br><br>
Finally, I see the same sort of potential in Haley that I saw in Mike Stoops at Oklahoma. When he came to Arizona, fans got just as excited. And by the end of the first year, people were talking more about his style (jumping and screaming on the sidelines, agressively working the refs) and many had jumped off the bad wagon. But he too was buildling a new culture at Arizona. And that's a slow process involving incremental changes, personal growth as a head coach, tinkering with the right leaders on the coaching staff over the years.

This year, we control our own destiny for the Pac-10 championship. If we win out, Stoops immediately becomes the greatest head coach in the history of our school. A somewhat modest claim, because we've never been to the Rose Bowl.

My view is that neither Pioli nor Haley have done anything remotely worthy of losing the long-run confidence of the fans in building a winning franchise. So, in that sense, maybe your entire premise of demanding proof that Haley has potential is just flawed.

milkman
11-16-2009, 10:22 AM
Not every decision he ever made was wrong (despite what it seems like, from watching him coach in games for 3 years). That doesn't mean he had any business being a head coach in the NFL.

His winning percentage as a head coach is 42% and his playoff winning percentage is 33%. He sucks. The bottom line is that if you hire Herman Edwards your franchise will be s*** in 3-5 years. It's a proven fact.

My point is, I don't believe that Herman fucking Edwards left this franchise in ruination.

He wasn't the guy to build the team, but he did draft some players that could be a part of the foundation of the team moving forward with the right builder.

stevieray
11-16-2009, 10:24 AM
same old crap...the Chiefs blunders are their own, but other team's aren't.

The Bad Guy
11-16-2009, 10:24 AM
You are aware that Pioli and I have two different jobs?

I'm the only one in the media fixated on Pioli's ego. People who work in football believe his ego is going to play a role in his failure as a GM.

So why haven't more "columnists" commented on his ego?

Surely, a monster like Pioli would be exposed by more than one writer if this was the case.

mikeyis4dcats.
11-16-2009, 10:25 AM
while it was not a lock that the Raiders score a TD there at the end, I'd put the odds at 75%. They had great field position and were riding some momentum.

Haley lost us the game, Heywood-(Jublowme) Bay won it for us.

booger
11-16-2009, 10:25 AM
somebody put a jeff george is gay sign in his yard

Chief Henry
11-16-2009, 10:27 AM
I wish we didn't have writers with personal agenda's in this town.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 10:27 AM
The fact is, Haley has made a lot of mistakes.

But he's in his first year as a HC with a team so devoid of talent that even if some of those bad decisions had worked out, it's still very likely those game lost would have been lost anyway.

He gets the benefit of learning on the job when his mistakes while learning have very little affect on the big picture.

Just like Tyson Jackson gets. Of course, Mr. Irrelevant has a much shorter leash. It's not "fair", but it is the right way to handle things.

And it's absurd to try to compare a marginally talented player getting a quick hook to for a (or the last of many, I'd guess) mistakes... to a young, first time head coach... and complain that they are not being held to that same standard. Of course they aren't. And they won't. And it won't put the team chemistry at risk one bit just like faililng to cut a 1st round pick after a back training camp won't kill the team morale either.

Chief Faithful
11-16-2009, 10:28 AM
I disagree.

Herman ****ing Edwards did the right thing in blowing up the roster.
He just wasn't the guy that should be doing it.

Had Clark Hunt brought in a GM and HC that continued the follow the path that Herman ****ing Edwards started down, rather than blow it up and start all over again, this franchise would be in better shape today than it is in.

May I add Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson were the wrong guys to do it. From what I've seen this year Pioli and Haley are much more skilled at remaking the roster.

Marcellus
11-16-2009, 10:28 AM
I am still trying to figure out what Pioli's Ego has done to harm this team.

I dont think his failure to address the o-line was due to ego, they flat dropped the ball on that one and I am sure they would admit that.

Carl Peterson's decision to sign LJ and dump Allen was driven by ego and that is the type of move that hurt this team big time.

The media lock down at 1 Arrowhead Drive hasn't hurt the team but it has pissed of the media.

milkman
11-16-2009, 10:31 AM
May I add Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson were the wrong guys to do it. From what I've seen this year Pioli and Haley are much more skilled at remaking the roster.

We aren't seeing the same thing.

Easy 6
11-16-2009, 10:32 AM
Even the most successfull head coaches make calls that they'd take back if possible, rookie head coaches, i would presume, even more so.

Yet Jason continues to harp on 'ego', even when Haley gets up on the dais & admits to his mistakes with regularity. That one, simple, honest act puts the lie to claims of rampant, unchecked ego.

We win, you write a disparaging article...we lose, you write a disparaging article. There isnt a lick of objectivity in your work anymore IMO. If you want to be critical, there atleast a dozen topics you could cover that carry more weight than this constant, petty sniping.

Try as you might, most of us have a long way to go before we throw in Haleys towel... if you Jason, would like to see him succeed as you say you do... you might be willing to wait awhile longer too.

Raised On Riots
11-16-2009, 10:35 AM
Pioli is running this organization. Haley makes decisions on game days and during practice. Everything else is Pioli's way.

I have long pondered/speculated that Matt Cassel was not Haley's ideal choice for a QB; did Haley take the job knowing Cassel was part of the deal, or were there any thoughts/conflicts between he and Pioli regarding the drafting of a QB in 09'?

Your thoughts please.
Thanks!

jAZ
11-16-2009, 10:38 AM
If you want to be critical, there atleast a dozen topics you could cover that carry more weight than this constant, petty sniping.

Technical criticsms don't sell the ads next to JW's columns. The constant threat that an ugly meltdown is seething just below the surface of the massive egos that have already begun to rot the foundations of 1 Arrowhead Drive... well, those definately do.

jwhit
11-16-2009, 10:38 AM
jAZ

You just compared a college coach to an NFL coach. You don't get seven years in the NFL. Plus, there's a way to coach college kids and there's a way to coach grown millionaires.

Some of your other thoughts are credible. My approach is wait and see. But I can point out what's wrong while I wait and see. When something goes right, I'll point that out, too.... But I'm not seeing it. This season has been a disaster.

Easy 6
11-16-2009, 10:44 AM
Technical criticsms don't sell the ads next to JW's columns. The constant threat that an ugly meltdown is seething just below the surface of the massive egos that have already begun to rot the foundations of 1 Arrowhead Drive... well, those definately do.

...:clap:

bowener
11-16-2009, 10:44 AM
You are aware that Pioli and I have two different jobs?

I'm the only one in the media fixated on Pioli's ego. People who work in football believe his ego is going to play a role in his failure as a GM.

Is it fair for me to infer from this statement that these people, you possibly included, think that it is a foregone conclusion Pioli is going to fail as a GM?

jAZ
11-16-2009, 10:47 AM
jAZ

You just compared a college coach to an NFL coach. You don't get seven years in the NFL. Plus, there's a way to coach college kids and there's a way to coach grown millionaires.

Some of your other thoughts are credible. My approach is wait and see. But I can point out what's wrong while I wait and see. When something goes right, I'll point that out, too.... But I'm not seeing it. This season has been a disaster.

Can you point me to your big "hey fans, take a wait and see attitude" article? I missed it.

It should be your next article, IMO. It would go a long way towards resetting the tone of your coverage of the team, IMO.

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 10:50 AM
jAZ

You just compared a college coach to an NFL coach. You don't get seven years in the NFL. Plus, there's a way to coach college kids and there's a way to coach grown millionaires.

Some of your other thoughts are credible. My approach is wait and see. But I can point out what's wrong while I wait and see. When something goes right, I'll point that out, too.... But I'm not seeing it. This season has been a disaster.

What were your general expectations going into this season? I will give you that we haven't seen as much progress as I thought we would but Pioli\Haley pretty much got 22 guys off the street and won 2 games.

bowener
11-16-2009, 10:50 AM
Show me this potential? Point me to the decisions and coaching style that give you confidence he's headed toward being a good head coach. Has there been some coaching innovation like what Sparano did with the Wildcat? Who is the player who has flourished under his regime and looked like the kind of playmaker this team will win with? I'm sorry Charles doesn't qualify yet. Neither does Tamba Hali and his 3.5 sacks.

Right now, Haley's claim to fame is he could be a damn good Jenny Craig counselor.

I want Haley to succeed. I actually like the guy. We're the same age. We could get along great. He's very nice to me. He gave me great advice about what to do for my back yesterday after the game. You guys have no clue. My criticism isn't personal.

I just don't see it. And neither do you if you're honest.

I can be honest, as I am sure most others here can be as well, I see little of what I expected from Haley as a coach (mostly because I bought into what the media was saying, you included JWhit), and with that being said I also see things that I haven't seen from our players since before Herm, mainly that our players do not give up. I realize that is a small thing to most people, but it could make a hell of a lot of a difference once we have some better talent (and a good OC/DC as well).

edit:

Since I brought it up at the end there, have you heard any grumblings of who the Chiefs may like or try and go after as far a coordinators are concerned? You do apparently know a lot of people in the league so I thought you may have heard a few rumors.

Some here speculate that Crennel will be brought in as Defensive coordinator next off season, having sat this season out to collect his paycheck and recover from hip surgery. Can you find any truth in this speculation, or do you think they should look elsewhere? He is a Pats former coordinator who failed as a head coach...

Another speculation is that Weis will be fired and then brought in here as OC...

If both of those happened I do not think they could survive with Haley, he apparently is an obesophobiac.

bowener
11-16-2009, 10:51 AM
What were your general expectations going into this season? I will give you that we haven't seen as much progress as I thought we would but Pioli\Haley pretty much got 22 guys off the street and won 2 games.

Funny ROFL

jAZ
11-16-2009, 10:53 AM
What were your general expectations going into this season? I will give you that we haven't seen as much progress as I thought we would but Pioli\Haley pretty much got 22 guys off the street and won 2 games.

Those 22 guys might have less talent and better attitudes. That's a step forward, IMO.

milkman
11-16-2009, 10:53 AM
I can be honest, as I am sure most others here can be as well, I see little of what I expected from Haley as a coach (mostly because I bought into what the media was saying, you included JWhit), and with that being said I also see things that I haven't seen from our players since before Herm, mainly that our players do not give up. I realize that is a small thing to most people, but it will make a hell of a lot once we have some better talent (and a good OC/DC as well).

You know, I'm getting really tired of defending Herman fucking Edwards, given that I hated the man from the very first day.

However, the players on Herman fucking Edwards' team never gave up.
They played hard.

They just simply ran out of gas.

jAZ
11-16-2009, 10:55 AM
Those 22 guys might have less talent and better attitudes. That's a step forward, IMO.

Though I have to say that they seem to be improving the talent over time by picking up scraps off the floor.

What's that say?

dirk digler
11-16-2009, 10:57 AM
Though I have to say that they seem to be improving the talent over time by picking up scraps off the floor.

What's that say?

Chris Chambers has been a pretty nice surprise.

bowener
11-16-2009, 10:59 AM
You know, I'm getting really tired of defending Herman ****ing Edwards, given that I hated the man from the very first day.

However, the players on Herman ****ing Edwards' team never gave up.
They played hard.

They just simply ran out of gas.

Ok, well then let me amend my statement to say: Thus far under Haley our players are in shape, and never run out of gas at the end of a game, no matter how small a chance of winning we may have.

HemiEd
11-16-2009, 11:15 AM
Egoli hasn't gone anywhere. Just didn't need it yesterday. People around the league love the nickname. Had two people mention it to me yesterday in Oakland. And I'm talking about people who work in the league.

I really don't care what the "people around the league" think of it, I think it is borish and childish.

It just might be that they are being nice to your face, and laughing behind your back.

Alton deFlat
11-16-2009, 11:17 AM
My columns are good win or lose.

...and how good were they your first year as a columnist? Seriously, rate yourself on a 1-10 basis on how good you feel you were then and now.

wild1
11-16-2009, 11:21 AM
here we go with this tired old Egoli shtick. Think of something original, or maybe even something effective. "Your GM has a large ego" doesn't really mean anything to the fans.

Christofire
11-16-2009, 12:18 PM
My approach is wait and see. But I can point out what's wrong while I wait and see. When something goes right, I'll point that out, too.... But I'm not seeing it. This season has been a disaster.

Sure, you can point out what's wrong. But it doesn't accomplish anything.

Pointing out Pioli and Haley's arrogance will not cause Pioli and Haley to change the way they are doing their jobs.

Pointing out Pioli and Haley's arrogance will not cause Clark Hunt to can them any faster.

Pointing out Pioli and Haley's arrogance will not cause the fans to revolt -- losing will. Just ask Herm. He was a nice guy, but the fans wanted him gone because of his record. And the same will be true if Pioli and Haley continue to lose.

You're trying to ignite the fanbase with perceived personality flaws, when wins and losses are what people care about.

bluehawkdoc
11-16-2009, 12:21 PM
Chris Chambers has been a pretty nice surprise.


I agree, Dirk. He has been a nice pick-up with instant impact to the offense. Had a great block downfield on Charles' TD run yesterday.

Sure-Oz
11-16-2009, 12:44 PM
JaMarcus Russell's benching may be permanent

Raiders coach Tom Cable refused to commit to JaMarcus Russell as his starting quarterback in Sunday's post-game press conference.
Owner Al Davis is a staunch Russell supporter, at one point even calling the bumbling quarterback "a great player," so beat reporter Jerry McDonald suggests that Cable's stance will threaten his job security. Still, Cable would be right to bench Russell. His 47.1 completion rate and 5.5 YPA both rank 30th in the league, and Russell has a 2:9 TD to INT ratio for the year. Nov. 15 - 11:35 pm et
Source: Oakland Tribune

When i first glanced i thought it said "JaMarcus Russell's pregnant"

jAZ
11-16-2009, 12:48 PM
You're trying to ignite the fanbase with perceived personality flaws, when wins and losses are what people care about.

Good point.

In an industry filled with prima dona atheletes with massive, publicly destructive egos... JW's effort to try to brand a guy who's done absolutely *nothing* publicly to even remotely earn the lable of egotistical, a makes the claim look ridiculous. Using the term "Egoli" makes JW look childish and petty (and unfunny). Having the remarks come from a member of the media who, while popular, is widely seen as having his own massive ego makes it look hypocritical.

In the end, the who "Egoli" thing is flacid. It seems to be more of a reflection of a terrily lazy effort and generally bad punditry.

BossChief
11-16-2009, 12:53 PM
jwhit,

Thank you for posting here. I wanted to get that out of the way first and foremost.

This article is a massive fail on the level of the hindenburg. It is NO DIFFERENT than the last 8 or so articles you have written disregarding the team itself andfocusing on your dislike for Haley and Pioli.

You have officially taken a very small positive for us fans (a division win against a hated rival) and instead of taking the time to shed some positive light for once, you chose the "low road".

I offer some words of advice from the fanbase. GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE. We ALL know that the Raiders game was ugly and we could have lost, but we didn't. We won. We found a way "not to lose" and just when some of us were enjoying our ice cream, you came by and decided to drop a load in it.

We know we have a rookie head coach that will make mistakes along the way. Most of us are with ya on the fact that he has made too many mistakes and coaches with maybe too much emotion.

No mention of Charles getting a real opertunity in this game: a good coaching move
No mention of the downfield passes that were called: a good coaching move

Most of us expected to lose, even if our hearts told us we might win.

I think you missed the boat on this opportunity. If you had written an article that was half critical and half giving credit, it would have earned you some brownie points with many of us "fans of the Chiefs"

What you did was add more people to the "**** his articles about Pioli" group.

If this article was focused on the big day by Charles and a few others, it would have shown you arent petty.

Take it for what its worth.

ALSO, it isnt smart to some here and constantly insult a large part of the fan base here. :shake:

DaWolf
11-16-2009, 12:57 PM
You are aware that Pioli and I have two different jobs?

I'm the only one in the media fixated on Pioli's ego. People who work in football believe his ego is going to play a role in his failure as a GM.

Jason, can you actually document this so called "ego"? It's all been over the top speculation from you. I have yet to see hard facts. And I could really care less what "people who work in football" say. "People who work in football" also consist of anyone who works for the Raiders for example, so there are a lot of incompetent people who work in football who are haters. It's just like any other profession, you have those who try to tear others down.

How does a guy who was content to sit in the shadows for all these years and let BB take all the credit and who turned down multiple opportunities to run a team until this year all of a sudden supposedly have an "ego" issue? If he had an ego issue and didn't know crap about personnel you don't think BB would have dumped him? Who did you want Clark Hunt to bring in, some guy who has no faith in his abilities and who defers left and right? Any GM worth their salt is going to go in and do it their way. Polian, Parcells, AJ Smith, and so forth, these guys would act differently?

If you want to argue that he has made serious errors in judgment on personnel his first year here, fine. If you want to talk about what he ought to be doing to improve this team, fine. But this "ego" BS is just getting you nowhere. We only care about wins and losses. If a guy wins, no one cares about his personality. If a guy loses, his personality is only a scapegoat for what the real issue is, which is lack of performance. Nice guys fail as much as a-holes in this league...

alpha_omega
11-16-2009, 01:08 PM
Could we please focus on football and not personalities?!?!?!?!

KCtotheSB
11-16-2009, 01:08 PM
Personally, I favor in the majority of Haley's 4th down decisions. Granted, the successes like the "4th and 1 44 yard TD run" are few and far between and the "4th and 2 QB Sneak at your own 40" outnumber them by a wide margin.....but I like the approach, at least. I'd rather our head coach play balls to the wall instead of a more conservative approach. Either extreme isn't a good thing and I think Haley just needs to learn to sway more to the conservative side in certain instances.

Yes, Haley should have went for the field goal on 4th and 1 yesterday, but hindsight's 20/20..... If we would have scored a TD there, the game would have certainly been over.....(if if's and but's were candy and nuts...)

RedThat
11-16-2009, 01:17 PM
I agree, Dirk. He has been a nice pick-up with instant impact to the offense. Had a great block downfield on Charles' TD run yesterday.

Im with you guys on this one as well. I've been very impressed with Chris Chambers. Good pickup for the offense.

Aside from Succop, I think adding Chambers and releasing LJ are Pioli's best moves without a doubt.

HC_Chief
11-16-2009, 01:18 PM
We only care about wins and losses. If a guy wins, no one cares about his personality. If a guy loses, his personality is only a scapegoat for what the real issue is, which is lack of performance. Nice guys fail as much as a-holes in this league...

+1

Most fans watch sports to enjoy the sport. You know, watch the game. The ancillary personality bullshit is a media-driven enterprise. I'm not sure who it caters to, but I personally find it annoying. It's the reason we have retarded halftime shows during the SB; some director/producer jaggoff thinks football fans give two shits about Ashley *^#%ing Simpson or whatever semi-retarded piece of tail happens at that momen to be popular with The Hills crowd. WE DON'T CARE.

We don't give a &*#% if some GM is an egotistical asshole if he gets the job done. We want Ws, and a lot of them. A Lombardi would be nice. Hell, how about a Hunt Trophy? How about a goddamn playoff win? We hated Peterson because he was a MASSIVE failure without Marty. Sure, he was a prick as well, but that was simply icing on that turd cake.

Pioli and Haley will ultimately be judged for job performance. So far, they have done a really shitty job. WHY is irrelevant. Fix it, get it right, win some #&^$@ing games, or we'll be calling fortheir heads as well.

The Bad Guy
11-16-2009, 01:26 PM
Chambers should absolutely be brought back next year.

crazycoffey
11-16-2009, 01:28 PM
What pisses me off most about this article and about 1/2 of the vocal critics of this team and the coaches... is that there is obviously room for Haley to grow as a coach. And he's conceded that from the beginning of this process. He's been public about the mistakes he's made.

These remarks made by Whitlock and others aren't made in a genuine suggestion of growth. It's that they've picked sides in a fight. And the enemy is Haley. And when Haley loses, they win.

It's f*cking disgusting to me.


this everyday of the week. side note, I didn't realize that Hailey was on the chopping block..... :rolleyes:

RedThat
11-16-2009, 01:30 PM
Chambers should absolutely be brought back next year.

Absolutely. I think he'd make a solid #2 receiver. A good compliment to Dwayne Bowe for sure. Definately brings something to the team because he is the type of player that could stretch the field. Im happy the Chiefs managed to create stabiliity at the WR position.

boogblaster
11-16-2009, 01:52 PM
Normal Shitlock Mumbling .... Yes we were lucky .. Yes we are a below average team .. but with lack of skills you have to take un-normal chances .....

HemiEd
11-16-2009, 01:54 PM
Im happy the Chiefs managed to create stabiliity at the WR position.Blasphemy, this regime has done nothing to improve the team this year, haven't you heard?

Where is Jeff Webb?

HC_Chief
11-16-2009, 02:04 PM
Normal Shitlock Mumbling .... Yes we were lucky .. Yes we are a below average team .. but with lack of skills you have to take un-normal chances .....

:spock:
Haley made some really bad decisions yesterday. JW hit that nail squarely on the head.

1. You don't go for it on 4th and 1 while in easy FG range, hell AUTOMATIC FG range, when your lead is precarious and your opponent's offense can't help but trip on their own dicks

1a. If you DO go for it on 4th and 1 within automatic FG range against an opponent whose offense continues to screw up anything positive, you don't run a low-percentage pass play! A QB rollout pass with a WR dragging all the way across the field is a terrible, TERRIBLE play call in that situation.

2. You don't call a freaking timeout when your D is lined up perfectly to stuff a QB sneak; especially when you, the people in the stands, and the television audience KNOW that is precisely what the opponent is going to do.

3. You don't go into a freaking shell defensively at the end of a one-possession game! You especially don't do it when it COST YOU THE *#^$%@ING GAME AGAINST THE SAME OPPONENT, IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION, EARLIER THAT SEASON!

Haley has been a bumbling, over-reaching, flailing bucket of regurgitated FAIL this season. He has been every bit as bad as Herman "you've got to cook the potato with the football!" Edwards.

RedThat
11-16-2009, 02:08 PM
:spock:
Haley made some really bad decisions yesterday. JW hit that nail squarely on the head.

1. You don't go for it on 4th and 1 while in easy FG range, hell AUTOMATIC FG range, when your lead is precarious and your opponent's offense can't help but trip on their own dicks

1a. If you DO go for it on 4th and 1 within automatic FG range against an opponent whose offense continues to screw up anything positive, you don't run a low-percentage pass play! A QB rollout pass with a WR dragging all the way across the field is a terrible, TERRIBLE play call in that situation.

2. You don't call a freaking timeout when your D is lined up perfectly to stuff a QB sneak; especially when you, the people in the stands, and the television audience KNOW that is precisely what the opponent is going to do.

3. You don't go into a freaking shell defensively at the end of a one-possession game! You especially don't do it when it COST YOU THE *#^$%@ING GAME AGAINST THE SAME OPPONENT, IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION, EARLIER THAT SEASON!

Haley has been a bumbling, over-reaching, flailing bucket of regurgitated FAIL this season. He has been every bit as bad as Herman "you've got to cook the potato with the football!" Edwards.

Imo he is worse. he's waaay over his head in calling plays.

DeezNutz
11-16-2009, 02:09 PM
Haley has been a bumbling, over-reaching, flailing bucket of regurgitated FAIL this season. He has been every bit as bad as Herman "you've got to cook the potato with the football!" Edwards.

No question that this is true. Many simply don't want to hear it.

That said, I'm hopeful that Haley can improve because he seems like a cool guy.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-16-2009, 02:10 PM
Whitlock raises some good points..... more on those in a second.... the problem is that he knows nothing of 'why' Gailey was fired, or 'why' Dedric Ward was demoted. He hints that he knows something, but won't go on the record, which is childish. The reality is that if he knew anything at all.... he would find a way to write the story.

Second, he alludes to Haley's ego. The more I see and here Haley, the less ego I think he has. He has a way that he believes will win games. He has learned this at the feet of some pretty amazing coaches with a history of success... so that is probably WHY he believes in his system so much. But, he constantly takes blame and criticism and points the finger at himself first. That isn't 'egotistical'.

Now, as far as the lack of gameday management that Haley shows on a weekly basis... yes, Whitlock has a point. Haley, so far, really makes some of the worst decisions I have seen by a head coach of the Chiefs. Considering that list includes Herm Edwards, that says a lot.

I am hoping that Haley gets his legs under him, hires an offensive coordinator and he is successful. There is a ton to like about him.

But, there is also reason to be concerned.

DaWolf
11-16-2009, 02:17 PM
:spock:
Haley made some really bad decisions yesterday. JW hit that nail squarely on the head.

1. You don't go for it on 4th and 1 while in easy FG range, hell AUTOMATIC FG range, when your lead is precarious and your opponent's offense can't help but trip on their own dicks

1a. If you DO go for it on 4th and 1 within automatic FG range against an opponent whose offense continues to screw up anything positive, you don't run a low-percentage pass play! A QB rollout pass with a WR dragging all the way across the field is a terrible, TERRIBLE play call in that situation.

I'll agree with 1a. On 1, that logic makes sense if you have a decent team. When you have a seriously bad team like the Chiefs, who are in the bottom half of the league defensively and who at any time can make even the Raiders look good, sometimes you have to go for it. It's part of building that "killer instinct" this team needs. It's why we lose so many close games in the 4th quarter. When you have a Martyball Chiefs team, you have a good enough defense to get away with that against bad teams. Here, there are no guarantees. This team has been masterful at giving up huge plays at the worst times. Really, the big thing here is not that they went for it, but that they couldn't pick up the yard. Again, I'll agree with you on 1a, because if you look at it, the difference in the game was going for it on 4th and 1 with Charles earlier. That ended up being brilliant. If they had converted this play, who knows maybe we win going away. But it didn't work out, and both the offense and the coach need to learn from it and improve...

HC_Chief
11-16-2009, 02:22 PM
But, he constantly takes blame and criticism and points the finger at himself first. That isn't 'egotistical'.

Accepting responsibility for failure does not equate to "isn't egotistical".

He did do one thing that I consider egotistical: he fired his OC before the 4th preseason game and rewrote the offense. He then took on the role of OC AND QB coach. This, on top of an already overflowing workload (HC).

He is either grossly overconfident or obscenely egotistical. Regardless, he is in WAAAAAAAAY over his head. I can see how people would assume the latter; you have to have a pretty big frigging head to wear that many hats at once.

If he wants to be an OC, he should go be an OC. We need a HC AND an OC. They need to be two different people. We also need a QB coach. Again, another individual; definitely not a split role gig.

DaWolf
11-16-2009, 02:23 PM
No question that this is true. Many simply don't want to hear it.

That said, I'm hopeful that Haley can improve because he seems like a cool guy.

To me, the key to most guys success is can they recognize their strengths and weaknesses, work to their strengths, and hire guys to compensate for their weaknesses? Most successful guys surround themselves with people who help them succeed. So we'll see what Haley does this offseason. If he hires the right people to let him focus on being the head coach, I think he has a shot. If he fails to do that, I think he'll have a tough time sticking around for season 3...

SenselessChiefsFan
11-16-2009, 02:29 PM
Accepting responsibility for failure does not equate to "isn't egotistical".

He did do one thing that I consider egotistical: he fired his OC before the 4th preseason game and rewrote the offense. He then took on the role of OC AND QB coach. This, on top of an already overflowing workload (HC).

He is either grossly overconfident or obscenely egotistical. Regardless, he is in WAAAAAAAAY over his head. I can see how people would assume the letter; you have to have a pretty big frigging head to wear that many hats at once.

If he wants to be an OC, he should go be an OC. We need a HC AND an OC. They need to be two different people. We also need a QB coach. Again, another individual; definitely not a split role gig.

I respect Haley for firing Chan. Look, too often coaches don't address problems as soon as they should. They let it go trying to win at least one more game than they would have. This may help in the year that they are in..... but sets the organization back overall. Yeah, the decision should have been made sooner.... but he was pressured to keep Chan. That isn't on HIM... that is on Pioli or Clark Hunt depending on who you 'believe'.

crazycoffey
11-16-2009, 02:29 PM
:spock:
Haley made some really bad decisions yesterday. JW hit that nail squarely on the head.

1. You don't go for it on 4th and 1 while in easy FG range, hell AUTOMATIC FG range, when your lead is precarious and your opponent's offense can't help but trip on their own dicks

1a. If you DO go for it on 4th and 1 within automatic FG range against an opponent whose offense continues to screw up anything positive, you don't run a low-percentage pass play! A QB rollout pass with a WR dragging all the way across the field is a terrible, TERRIBLE play call in that situation.

2. You don't call a freaking timeout when your D is lined up perfectly to stuff a QB sneak; especially when you, the people in the stands, and the television audience KNOW that is precisely what the opponent is going to do.

3. You don't go into a freaking shell defensively at the end of a one-possession game! You especially don't do it when it COST YOU THE *#^$%@ING GAME AGAINST THE SAME OPPONENT, IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION, EARLIER THAT SEASON!

Haley has been a bumbling, over-reaching, flailing bucket of regurgitated FAIL this season. He has been every bit as bad as Herman "you've got to cook the potato with the football!" Edwards.


you could almost be talking about Bill Belacheat too, and he's a genius....

jAZ
11-16-2009, 02:31 PM
He did do one thing that I consider egotistical: he fired his OC before the 4th preseason game and rewrote the offense. He then took on the role of OC AND QB coach. This, on top of an already overflowing workload (HC).

That's not egotistical. It's actually a reflection of a common mistake 1st time head coaches make.

I live in Tucson and Glen Parker (former tackle for the Chiefs and Giants) hosts a locals show here. I called in and asked him his thoughts on Haley and he said one of the things he would be watching for is to see if Haley can handle trusting his assistant coaches. Parker said that this is problably the biggest mistake that most new coaches make.

They feel like they have to control everything and micromanage everything, and is (in his opinion) the biggest reason that new coaches fail.

Clearly the decision could very easily be one that reflects poorly on Haley. But to call it ego, rather than a lack of trust of others and an excessive need to control your situation.

I also think that Haley feels like he settled on hiring his O and D C's and that with a full season to recruit, he'll replace one of both with people he has even more confidence in.

Count Alex's Wins
11-16-2009, 02:33 PM
Wow, Whitlock is back, and in force.

Whatever he writes...it's awesome that he posts with us.

BossChief
11-16-2009, 02:35 PM
Wow, Whitlock is back, and in force.

Whatever he writes...it's awesome that he posts with us.

kinda nice to have a "real member of the media" here, huh?

Sorry, had to do it. Could. Not. Resist.

DeezNutz
11-16-2009, 02:37 PM
To me, the key to most guys success is can they recognize their strengths and weaknesses, work to their strengths, and hire guys to compensate for their weaknesses? Most successful guys surround themselves with people who help them succeed. So we'll see what Haley does this offseason. If he hires the right people to let him focus on being the head coach, I think he has a shot. If he fails to do that, I think he'll have a tough time sticking around for season 3...

No argument here.

HC_Chief
11-16-2009, 02:40 PM
you could almost be talking about Bill Belacheat too, and he's a genius....

Easy to be a genious[sic] when you have, by sheer dumb luck, a HoF QB fall right into your lap. ;)

Unlike what seems to be most of the sentient universe, I remember hoodie in Cleveland.

HC_Chief
11-16-2009, 02:51 PM
That's not egotistical. It's actually a reflection of a common mistake 1st time head coaches make.

They feel like they have to control everything and micromanage everything, and is (in his opinion) the biggest reason that new coaches fail.

Clearly the decision could very easily be one that reflects poorly on Haley. But to call it ego, rather than a lack of trust of others and an excessive need to control your situation.

I also think that Haley feels like he settled on hiring his O and D C's and that with a full season to recruit, he'll replace one of both with people he has even more confidence in.

As I stated, that could easily be misconstrued as egotistical. Perhaps it is just a compulsion to control/micromanage the situation. I wouldn't be surprised one bit to learn that to be the case. I also, however, cannot blame anyone for considering it egotistical: "I don't like the way they're running things; hell, <i>I</i> could do their job better <i>and</i> do __________ at the same time. I'm <i>that frigging good!</i>".

I hope you're right re: OC & DC. I don't like Pendergast(sp) one bit as DC. His defenses had a propensity to surrender big plays in AZ, and it's the same story here. Could be execution (I'm sure it is in many instances), but it has the same stink to it as GRob's "system".

Shag
11-16-2009, 02:56 PM
That's not egotistical. It's actually a reflection of a common mistake 1st time head coaches make.

I live in Tucson and Glen Parker (former tackle for the Chiefs and Giants) hosts a locals show here. I called in and asked him his thoughts on Haley and he said one of the things he would be watching for is to see if Haley can handle trusting his assistant coaches. Parker said that this is problably the biggest mistake that most new coaches make.

They feel like they have to control everything and micromanage everything, and is (in his opinion) the biggest reason that new coaches fail.

Clearly the decision could very easily be one that reflects poorly on Haley. But to call it ego, rather than a lack of trust of others and an excessive need to control your situation.

I also think that Haley feels like he settled on hiring his O and D C's and that with a full season to recruit, he'll replace one of both with people he has even more confidence in.

This. Delegation is generally the hardest thing for anyone moving from a "hands on" position to a management position, whether it be in sports or business. Generally, your ability in your "hands on" job is what got you the management job in the first place, and giving that up can be very difficult.

I don't fault Haley for wanting to get his system in place ASAP, and I believe that firing Gailey was likely a prerequisite for doing so. The timing was unfortunate, but I would not be surprised if the speculation about Clark having a hand in keeping Gailey as OC was correct. I think this coming offseason will be most telling - if Haley hires an OC and QB coach and relinquishes some responsibility, he has a chance. If he doesn't, I'll have some serious doubts about his approach.

I've yet to see any real example of ego displayed by either Pioli or Haley. Gross miscalculation and mis-evaluation, sure. But not ego.

penchief
11-16-2009, 03:21 PM
Typical of a poster here. Clueless.

No, Jason. You are clueless. Clueless to your own ego. Your personal agenda is so transparent it's not even funny. You could write about legitimate football criticisms but you don't. Instead, you choose to beat a dead horse in order to keep your fabricated narrative alive. You choose to attack the character of the coach and the GM personally rather than stick to football.

For the life of me I can't understand why the KC Star promotes this kind of childish garbage. It should be an embarassment to them. The only one showing excessive ego in this entire charade is you.

Christofire
11-16-2009, 04:10 PM
Just watched today's press conference. Every time I watch them, I like Haley more and more. He always seems genuine, always seems respectful of the media and always seems humble.

I think people mischaracterize Haley's swagger and attitude on the sideline as arrogance. When it comes to leading players, you can't be a namby-pamby. Haley has too much fire and competitiveness to let guys slack off, and he wants to win.

Raised On Riots
11-16-2009, 04:13 PM
Just watched today's press conference. Every time I watch them, I like Haley more and more. He always seems genuine, always seems respectful of the media and always seems humble.

I think people mischaracterize Haley's swagger and attitude on the sideline as arrogance. When it comes to leading players, you can't be a namby-pamby. Haley has too much fire and competitiveness to let guys slack off, and he wants to win.

If you call a smart game and can put more "W's" in the column than "L's", you can be however the hell you WANT to be.

Spott
11-16-2009, 04:19 PM
Just watched today's press conference. Every time I watch them, I like Haley more and more. He always seems genuine, always seems respectful of the media and always seems humble.

I think people mischaracterize Haley's swagger and attitude on the sideline as arrogance. When it comes to leading players, you can't be a namby-pamby. Haley has too much fire and competitiveness to let guys slack off, and he wants to win.

I met Haley last week after the Jaguars game and he seemed a little aloof and he didn't seem like he felt comfortable interacting with people. I never get to see any interviews with him down here, but I can see where he might come off as arrogant and uppity. I have no idea if he's normally like that or if he just gets in cool down mode after games.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 06:19 PM
I think you need to wait longer.

It's pretty obvious that he's in over his head with all the responsibilities he's taken on as a rookie HC.

Let's see how he manages the job of HC when he hires an OC that shares his philosophy.
who's going to take that job? Haley is a fucking control freak nut job!

Now, do I appreciate the aggressiveness on gamedays? I'll say this...it's still a breath of fresh fucking air compared to Herm fucking Edwards...

Coogs
11-16-2009, 06:24 PM
I met Haley last week after the Jaguars game and he seemed a little aloof and he didn't seem like he felt comfortable interacting with people. I never get to see any interviews with him down here, but I can see where he might come off as arrogant and uppity. I have no idea if he's normally like that or if he just gets in cool down mode after games.

kcchiefs.com


You can watch them there.

DeezNutz
11-16-2009, 06:24 PM
who's going to take that job? Haley is a ****ing control freak nut job!

Now, do I appreciate the aggressiveness on gamedays? I'll say this...it's still a breath of fresh ****ing air compared to Herm ****ing Edwards...

Ok. By "aggressiveness", you must mean yelling. Because the play calling sure as hell hasn't been aggressive thus far this season.

DaneMcCloud
11-16-2009, 06:25 PM
Ok. By "aggressiveness", you must mean yelling. Because the play calling sure as hell hasn't been aggressive thus far this season.

A draw play on 3rd and 25 isn't aggressive?

Huh.

DeezNutz
11-16-2009, 06:26 PM
A draw play on 3rd and 25 isn't aggressive?

Huh.

Or the the designed QB draw on 3rd and, what?, 7 yesterday to line up the FG...

Rain Man
11-16-2009, 06:28 PM
Time has not yet struck its judgment into the fossil record of Pioli and Haley. While the mud is fresh and the trilobites are still wiggling I'm going to give them free rein. (Or is it free reign? Oddly, both of those words work.)

penchief
11-16-2009, 06:32 PM
Or the the designed QB draw on 3rd and, what?, 7 yesterday to line up the FG...

Oh, I don't know. I think he's gone for it on 4th down more in 9 weeks than Edwards did in three years. That seems somewhat aggressive to me.

I think that his playcalling has been effected a lot by the fumbles and dropsies. Everytime he makes a daring call someone seems to drop the ball, run a bad route, or make a bad throw. Then he gets criticized for making a stupid call. At this point he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 06:34 PM
A draw play on 3rd and 25 isn't aggressive?

Huh.

Well, I'm always ok with a draw play on 3rd and 25...I really am. Even 3rd and 18...especially when you're winning.

The fact we are consistently in 3rd and ridiculous is annoying.

I'm just talking about the subtle differences not many people notice...a couple of weeks ago we competed a pass when we were trying to get back into the game right before the 2:00 warning and the Chiefs tried as hard as they possibly could to get one more play off before the 2:00 warning...and were pissed when they just barely missed out...

With Herm at the helm...he'd have no idea what was going on.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 06:35 PM
The fact is...we never (rarely) have 3rd and manageable...it is ALWAYS 3rd and ridiculous. ALWAYS.

DeezNutz
11-16-2009, 06:35 PM
Oh, I don't know. I think he's gone for it on 4th down more in 9 weeks than Edwards did in three years.

The problem is that he's been aggressive at the wrong times. See SD in our own end of the field in the first half.

Or not going for a 4th and 1 inside the redzone, but following that up with an onside kick.

On Sundays, Haley has been full of fail. That's not even an arguable point.

The question is whether he'll improve...

WilliamTheIrish
11-16-2009, 06:36 PM
Had Raiders first-round disaster Darrius Heyward-Bey held on to Oakland’s final pass and the Raiders completed their final drive, Haley’s credible tenure as an NFL head coach would’ve ended nine games into his first season.

Lots of coaches will be credible longer when it depends DH-B to make a big catch.

'Cept for Cable....

BossChief
11-16-2009, 06:38 PM
Oh, I don't know. I think he's gone for it on 4th down more in 9 weeks than Edwards did in three years. That seems somewhat aggressive to me.

I think that his playcalling has been effected a lot by the fumbles and dropsies. Everytime he makes a daring call someone seems to drop the ball, run a bad route, or make a bad throw. Then he gets criticized for making a stupid call. At this point he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Is this supposed to make Haley look good?

It shows that we are the worst third down team I have ever seen and that we are desperate.

The playcalling on third down has been horrible.

RedThat
11-16-2009, 06:50 PM
The fact is...we never (rarely) have 3rd and manageable...it is ALWAYS 3rd and ridiculous. ALWAYS.

I agree. It's a big reason why this team can't convert on 3rd down. When its like 3rd and a mile that just makes it so much harder for your team to convert on 3rd down. And, its a defenses dream when they have to face an offense in 3rd and long situations. These are mistakes that need to be corrected. That, and the fact this team is so horrible at executing plays, spells disaster.

Im a firm believer in 3rd down conversions. The ability to sustain drives improves your team. No doubt. Its just something the Chiefs can't do? And its a big issue. I mean we could all sit here and talk about the positions they need to address in the off-season, but the fact remains clear, this team has to stop shooting themselves in the foot, and prevent themselves from being self defeated.

penchief
11-16-2009, 07:07 PM
Is this supposed to make Haley look good?

It shows that we are the worst third down team I have ever seen and that we are desperate.

The playcalling on third down has been horrible.

We've been a bad third down offense for the past three and a half years. And we haven't been able to stop third and long on defense for over a decade.

I'm not saying it is supposed to make Haley look good. I'm saying that he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Some people are killing him for making daring calls (stupid calls or not) at the same time others are killing him for being a "coward."

The only thing I'm saying is that I'm not going to kill him for trying to shake things up. Sure, some of the calls have been pretty wacky but he's dealing with a very narrow window for victory and I think he's trying to make things happen. A lot of the "stupid" plays could have easily succeeded had the players not made stupid mistakes or simply caught the ball.

Unlike Edwards, I think Haley wants to put the ball in the end zone rather than settle for field goals. I think a lot of the fourth down plays are the result of his trying to establish that mindset. Hopefully at some point it will pay off and the offense will start playing to score TDs instead of FGs.

Deberg_1990
11-16-2009, 08:01 PM
The only thing I'm saying is that I'm not going to kill him for trying to shake things up. Sure, some of the calls have been pretty wacky but he's dealing with a very narrow window for victory and I think he's trying to make things happen. A lot of the "stupid" plays could have easily succeeded had the players not made stupid mistakes or simply caught the ball.

Unlike Edwards, I think Haley wants to put the ball in the end zone rather than settle for field goals. I think a lot of the fourth down plays are the result of his trying to establish that mindset. Hopefully at some point it will pay off and the offense will start playing to score TDs instead of FGs.

I pretty much agree.

I think if Haley knew he had a better team, he wouldnt be going for it on 4th down as much.

Its all relative. Something JWhit fails to take note of.

Raised On Riots
11-16-2009, 08:09 PM
You PUT your fucking team up by nine every...goddamned...time.

End of story.

Jesus fuckin' Christ people!

keg in kc
11-16-2009, 08:09 PM
200+ post thread about whitlock.

I'd call that exactly what he's looking for.

Deberg_1990
11-16-2009, 08:10 PM
200+ post thread about whitlock.

I'd call that exactly what he's looking for.

heh...Hes GoChiefs on a National scale.

Raised On Riots
11-16-2009, 08:17 PM
And he shall get his posts.

Every time.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:31 PM
You PUT your ****ing team up by nine every...goddamned...time.

End of story.

Jesus ****in' Christ people!

It would have been 6...you fucking moron.

And when you are 4th and 1 from the opponents 13...what's the worst that can happen? You maintain a 3 point lead and face an abysmal offense that needs to put together an actual drive to have a chance to tie the game....

AND WE WERE 1-7.

So you lose.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:33 PM
You can ice the game with a TD...or turn the ball over and see if Russell or Gradkowski can muster up an actual drive to put some points on the board...

Either way we were god damn 1-7 so really, who fucking cares? I commend Haley for having some balls...

KcMizzou
11-16-2009, 08:34 PM
I've gotta side with Hootie on this one. I liked the decision... hated the play call.

Raised On Riots
11-16-2009, 08:41 PM
It would have been 6...you fucking moron.

And when you are 4th and 1 from the opponents 13...what's the worst that can happen? You maintain a 3 point lead and face an abysmal offense that needs to put together an actual drive to have a chance to tie the game....

AND WE WERE 1-7.

So you lose.

And what would it have been on the FG after that, math genius?

But hey; seeing as how you're smarter than Len Dawson( who espoused this very take this morning ), I'll go ahead and crown you the winner.

Dumbass.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:44 PM
And what would it have been on the FG after that, math genius?

This makes no sense.

If they kicked the field goal at the time of the call, they would have had a 6 point lead.

Anything after that is NOT relative. If they were up by 6 at the time of that 4th and 1...I GUARANTEE Haley would have kicked the field goal and made it a 2 score game.

This isn't that hard to understand for you, is it?

Raised On Riots
11-16-2009, 08:46 PM
This makes no sense.

If they kicked the field goal at the time of the call, they would have had a 6 point lead.

Anything after that is NOT relative. If they were up by 6 at the time of that 4th and 1...I GUARANTEE Haley would have kicked the field goal and made it a 2 score game.

This isn't that hard to understand for you, is it?

Then God help this team.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-16-2009, 08:48 PM
I don't have a problem with the decision to go for it on 4th, I have a problem with the playcall.

Just give it to Charles there.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:49 PM
What are you fucking talking about?

If we are up by 6, the field goal is a no brainer...

4th and 1 and up by 3 facing an abysmal offense on THEIR 13...that's a decision for ANY coach and I guarantee 3/4 of the league, facing the Raiders, if not more, elect to go for it...

Because like I said...the worst thing that happens is we don't pick up the 1st...and they get the ball IN TERRIBLE field position with a TERRIBLE QB and a TERRIBLE coach...

It really wasn't a bad decision, by ANY means...it was a low risk, high reward scenario.

Now, if he elected to go for it when we were up by 6...he'd be a fucking moron.

DeezNutz
11-16-2009, 08:49 PM
I don't have a problem with the decision to go for it on 4th, I have a problem with the playcall.

Just give it to Charles there.

Why take it out of the hands of your franchise QB? Let your best players decide the game.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:51 PM
I don't have a problem with the decision to go for it on 4th, I have a problem with the playcall.

Just give it to Charles there.
I didn't like the playcall...but why not sell hard on a play-action, and see what Bowe can do 1 on 1?

The rollout pass was a bad playcall, I agree...but I'm not so sure a Charles run would have been any better...

I wish we'd go for the throat more often...any time Bowe is 1 on 1...just throw him the ball...

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:53 PM
Why take it out of the hands of your franchise QB? Let your best players decide the game.

I consider myself to be pretty objective...and I think a pass was the right call in that situation...I'm not sure the right pass was called...but I'm glad we passed the ball rather than handed the ball off with this line...and yes, I did see the 4th and 1 TD run by Charles.

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:53 PM
P.S. What if Charles had been stuffed on that 4th and 1 down 3-10 instead of scoring a TD?

Would Haley be chastised for that one, too?

KCTitus
11-16-2009, 08:54 PM
I guess these columns are to be taken at face value without actually applying the past games as any sort of context. Because when I do, I had to chuckle at the criticisms here. Or maybe the premise of the column is to generate a 200+ post thread on teh Chiefsplanet, if so, congrats.

This teams best game was week one in Baltimore. In that game, they too, were one play from winning/losing. And sure, one could pick any play in the game and second guess it, but from the entire game perspective it was a good game.

It's gotten progressively worse, to the point, I thought Haley and the team had basically given up in Philly. Gamble? Tell me where in the F! the gamble was in that game. That was a good old fashioned Gunther 'pull the horns in' toss sweep 6 yards deep in the endzone to Donnell Bennett type of a game.

At 1-7 I dont really care if Haley gambles on 4th and 1 from the opponents 15 yard line. So what? KC's not fighting for a playoff spot, they're fighting for the first pick.

Again, this team suffers from a severe lack of talent and you can chalk that up to Carl or Herm or Vermeil or all of the above or whatever, but for goodness sake, no realistic person can expect them to turn around what Herm did to this team in one offseason.

Sure, I'd liked to see more attention paid to the OL, but this column is a joke when evaluated from the season's perspective.

Chiefs Pantalones
11-16-2009, 08:55 PM
Have I missed something? Is Haley's job really on the line?

Short Leash Hootie
11-16-2009, 08:57 PM
This board paints a lose/lose situation for anything that has to do with the Chiefs.

If he kicks a field goal there...he's a pussy.
If they go for it and don't make it...he's an idiot.

I mean, that's just how it is.

I think Haley needs to keep his cool on the sidelines...period.

Other than that, there is no reason, IMO, that he shouldn't AT THE VERY LEAST have one more year to show what kind of coach he is/can be.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-16-2009, 09:00 PM
I didn't like the playcall...but why not sell hard on a play-action, and see what Bowe can do 1 on 1?

The rollout pass was a bad playcall, I agree...but I'm not so sure a Charles run would have been any better...

I wish we'd go for the throat more often...any time Bowe is 1 on 1...just throw him the ball...

It's also not a bad playcall. Sprint Right Option is the best short yardage passing play in the league...when you actually send your receivers along with the QB. Instead, Bowe cut across the formation, and the only legit receiver out was Cottam.

Imagine running a dive with the C and G letting their men go through...that's what that playcall was.

KCTitus
11-16-2009, 09:00 PM
This board paints a lose/lose situation for anything that has to do with the Chiefs.

Of course...that's what genious (chiefsplanet spelling) do.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-16-2009, 09:01 PM
Why take it out of the hands of your franchise QB? Let your best players decide the game.

ROFLROFL

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:04 PM
I actually agree with Hootie here.

I have no problem going for it on that 4th down, nor do I have a problem choosing a pass play there.

I would not have gone with a rollout, though.

You are already playing with a short field, and you now take away half the field from sideline to sideline by rolling out a weak armed QB, and you send your best receiver to the other side of the field.

WTF?

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-16-2009, 09:06 PM
I actually agree with Hootie here.

I have no problem going for it on that 4th down, nor do I have a problem choosing a pass play there.

I would not have gone with a rollout, though.

You are already playing with a short field, and you now take away half the field from sideline to sideline by rolling out a weak armed QB, and you send your best receiver to the other side of the field.

WTF?

NFL films once devoted a 10 minute segment to that very play. It works great in short yardage and G2G situations if you send the receiver with the QB.

It's actually a great play, but a horrible interpretation of the play by Haley's staff.

Chocolate Hog
11-16-2009, 09:08 PM
The third and goal QB run was a better call

milkman
11-16-2009, 09:09 PM
NFL films once devoted a 10 minute segment to that very play. It works great in short yardage and G2G situations if you send the receiver with the QB.

It's actually a great play, but a horrible interpretation of the play by Haley's staff.

I think it's a good play if your QB has shown the ability to make good decisions.

That is where the problem with that playcall is for me.

I haven't seen that ability from Cassel.

Chocolate Hog
11-16-2009, 09:10 PM
Cassel perfected that play beautifuly in New England vs the Jets. They rolled out Moss the same way though.

Chiefs Pantalones
11-16-2009, 09:11 PM
I really don't have a problem with Haley's 4th down calls. We're 2-7. What do we have to lose? At least he's playing to win.

Fairplay
11-16-2009, 09:48 PM
Hes a risk taker
Going to the playmaker
going, going, going down the field

Now hes looking to score
Looking to soar
Oh yeah baby score

Hes a gunfighter today
ready to call the play
Ready to be the champion of the day

keg in kc
11-16-2009, 10:26 PM
This teams best game was week one in Baltimore. In that game, they too, were one play from winning/losing. And sure, one could pick any play in the game and second guess it, but from the entire game perspective it was a good game.Wait, what? Baltimore?

The Chiefs were destroyed in that game. It was nowhere near as close as the score (which wasn't close, 38-24). The Ravens outgained them 501 yards to 188 and held the ball for nearly 40 minutes.

Fairplay
11-16-2009, 10:32 PM
The Baltimore game was bad. The Ravens could have been up much more then they were. Chiefs were the suckage, it was horrible to watch just bad.

And Baltimore didn't impress me much in that game. They let us hang around, they could have finished us much earlier.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
11-16-2009, 10:34 PM
Wait, what? Baltimore?

The Chiefs were destroyed in that game. It was nowhere near as close as the score (which wasn't close, 38-24). The Ravens outgained them 501 yards to 188 and held the ball for nearly 40 minutes.

Actually, it was pretty damn close, Keg.

It was 24-24 with 2:08 to go. The 2nd Raven's score came after we didn't convert on 4th down from our own 10 with like 40 seconds to go. Trust me, the Raven fans at the stadium were sweating the outcome until about the two-minute warning.

Yeah, they out-gained us, but we were right there and it was a very winnable game for us. We just didn't put the drives together when we needed them at the end.