PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs Gretz: So Much Talent, So Immature … Wednesday Cup O’Chiefs


Pages : [1] 2

Tribal Warfare
11-18-2009, 09:38 AM
So Much Talent, So Immature … Wednesday Cup O’Chiefs (http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/so-much-talent-so-immature-%E2%80%A6-wednesday-cup-o%E2%80%99chiefs.html)
November 18, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

Dwayne Bowe’s four-game suspension from the NFL is just another step in what the Chiefs have to hope is the continuing maturation of the wide receiver.

Bowe better hope so as well. As he sits at home for a month, unable to spend time with his teammates and the Chiefs franchise, Bowe has a chance to decide what direction the rest of his career and life will take. He needs to do some very deep soul searching.

Over the years the Chiefs have had many players who had remarkable athletic talent, and the maturity of a 10-year old. Bowe is one of them. His story of being abandoned as a child by a mother and father distracted and in the clutches of drugs, being raised by his grandparents, running the streets and getting involved in crimes and fights left him without some very important blocks in a solid foundation of being an adult.

That background and then his success in football did lead him away from the drug culture. But there were some stains that could not be erased. Bowe was not suspended for taking illegal drugs or performance enhancing drugs like anabolic steroids. He is gone for four games because he tested positive for a diuretic.

The NFL considers the presence of a diuretic in a player’s urine sample the same as if it was steroids because it has frequently been used as a masking agent.

Bowe didn’t take the diuretic to mask steroids use. He took it to lose water weight; obviously he was in danger of not being at the prescribed weight he was given by Todd Haley and his coaching staff for training camp. There’s no other known reason for him to take a diuretic. A healthy, 25-year old professional athlete has no medical reason to be eliminating fluid.

Bowe wanted to take a pill and make his problem go away. It’s not exactly like running away from your life with the use of illegal drugs, but it’s the same mind-set, one that he grew up in during his formative years. In a situation of stress, he fell back on what he knew, not what he had been shown and coached over the previous six or seven months.

From the time he showed up for the off-season program some 25 pounds overweight, Haley has been all over Bowe. Just about every manner and method of motivation has been tried with him by Haley and his staff. There’s a reason that Bowe was put through the psychological ringer in attempts to change his behavior – he has talent. Haley would not have wasted any time on Bowe if he didn’t see something worth saving in a football sense. If Bowe was an ordinary player, he would have been sent packing long ago, probably the day he weighed in back in March.

Bowe fought the discipline. He didn’t like the heavy hand he was being dealt. His attitude was ‘I’m a No. 1 draft pick, I’ve caught 156 balls for 2,017 yards in two years in the NFL; I know what it takes.” He eventually learned that he wasn’t going to be able to change things by fighting the system. Whether or not he bought into the whole program remains to be seen.

His suspension is evidence that he did not. When Haley sent his players away for their five-week vacation in the middle of June, he told them several things. One was don’t give back all the hard work you’ve done by sitting on your butt and getting fat during the weeks before training camp. His need for a diuretic is a pretty good indication that Bowe wasn’t paying attention to that message.

Now, he has four weeks to think about that, and the fact he’s left his offensive teammates without their best weapon in the passing game. This isn’t just a penalty to be served by Bowe; it’s going to be served by the entire team. The 2009 Chiefs do not have many good players, and they certainly don’t have enough to lose one of their best.

The problem that the current coaching staff and the one that came before it had with Bowe was his reliability. He does not always do what he’s supposed to do on the field. He does not always get to where the route is designed for him to be. Everyone has seen that his hands are not reliable given the number of drops he’s had over his 41-game career.

And now, his availability has proven unreliable. It won’t happen in the next four weeks, but the Chiefs need Bowe to grow up. More importantly, Dwayne Bowe needs Dwayne Bowe to grow up. His talents would not be the first wasted because of immaturity.

But, he can do something about it

SIGNINGS, INJURIES & MOVEMENT AROUND THE LEAGUE

* BENGALS – signed RB Larry Johnson; released DT Orien Harris.
* BUCCANEERS – re-signed G Arron Sears.
* BILLS – fired head coach Dick Jauron – in three-plus seasons he had a 24-33 record; Perry Fewell named interim head coach.
* CHIEFS – the NFL suspended WR Dwayne Bowe four games for violating the league’s policy on performance enhancing drugs.
* DOLPHINS – RB Ronnie Brown will not play Thursday night against the Panthers because of his foot injury.
* JAGUARS – placed WR Jarrett Dillard on the injured-reserve list: signed WR Nate Hughes.
* PANTHERS – placed OT Jordan Gross on the injured-reserve list; promoted WR Charly Martin from the practice squad.
* RAVENS – released K Steve Hauschka.
* SAINTS – signed CB Chris McAlister; released QB Chase Daniel.
* STEELERS – released LB Arnold Harrison; promoted LB Donovan Woods from the practice squad; it’s unlikely that S Troy Polamalu will play against the Chiefs because of a knee injury suffered last Sunday.

FROM THE PAGES OF CHIEFS HISTORY

On November 18, 1960, the Dallas Texans lost to the Boston Patriots 42-14 in a Friday night game played at Boston University Field. More details later today.

On November 18, 1962, the Dallas Texans beat the Denver Broncos 24-3 at Bears Stadium in front of an announced crowd of 23,523 fans. The Texans scored 17 points in the fourth quarter to wrap up the victory. QB Len Dawson (left) threw three touchdown passes, including a 92-yarder to TE Tommy Brooker. Dawson also connected on a 47-yard pass to TE Fred Arbanas and 26 yards to WR Chris Burford. Booker kicked a 13-yard FG. Dawson was 11 of 17 for 275 yards, while Arbanas caught three passes for 117 yards. RB Abner Haynes had 74 yards rushing.

On November 18, 1973, the Chiefs beat the Houston Oilers 38-14 at Arrowhead Stadium. The Chiefs built a 24-0 lead and never trailed the Oilers, as they played in front of 68,444 fans. Mike Livingston started at quarterback and threw a pair of early TD passes, one of five yards to TE Gary Butler and a 24-yarder to WR Otis Taylor. Livingston also scored on a three-yard run. The Chiefs got fourth quarter TDs on a one-yard run by RB Willie Ellison and a 19-yard fumble return by DE John Lohmeyer. S Jim Kearney and LB Willie Lanier picked off a pair of QB Lynn Dickey passes. DTs Curley Culp and Buck Buchanan had sacks for the Chiefs defense.

On November 18, 1974, the Chiefs beat the Denver Broncos 42-34 in a Monday night game at Mile High Stadium. It was a prime-time shootout in Denver, with the big yardage belonging to the Broncos but the victory going to the Chiefs. Denver QB Charley Johnson threw for 445 yards and a pair of TD passes, but Kansas city had three interceptions, two by CB Emmitt Thomas and the other from LB Willie Lanier. QB Len Dawson threw TD passes to WR Otis Taylor and RB Ed Podolak. On the ground, Podolak, Woody Green and Wendell Hayes had TD runs. Green finished the game with 114 yards on 18 carries.

On November 18, 1979, the Chiefs beat the Raiders 24-21 at the Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum. The Chiefs ended a five-game losing streak and got some help from Oakland kicker Jim Breech, who missed his 19-yard FG attempt with five seconds left that would have sent the game into overtime. The Raiders were down 24-7 late in the third quarter when they began a comeback directed by QB Ken Stabler. He connected with TE Derrick Ramsey for a 16-yard score and then WR Cliff Branch (right) on three-yard TD pass to move within a field goal. Branch should have had another touchdown catch but he dropped Stabler’s pass in the end zone. The Chiefs got their touchdowns early, as RB Horace Belton scored on a three-yard run, WR Henry Marshall had a 23-yard scoring run and TE Tony Samuels fell on a fumble in the end zone. Jan Stenerud added a 41-yard FG. First-year RB Mike Williams ran 20 times for 109 yards and caught four passes for 54 yards.

On November 18, 1984, the Chiefs lost to the Raiders 17-7 at the Los Angeles Coliseum in front of a crowd of 48,575 fans. The Raiders jumped to a 14-0 lead at half-time and rode that to the victory. The Chiefs only score came on a three-yard TD pass from QB Bill Kenney to TE Willie Scott. The Raiders defense held KC to just 182 offensive yards, including just 20 rushing yards on 16 carries. Oakland LB Rod Martin got the scoring started when he returned a fumble 77 yards for a touchdown. The Chiefs defense picked off Raiders QB Marc Wilson one and sacked him three times; CB Albert Lewis had the pick and DEs Art Still (two) and Mike Bell had the sacks.

On November 18, 1990, the Chiefs beat the San Diego Chargers 27-10 at Arrowhead Stadium. The Chiefs jumped to a 17-3 lead at half-time and never trailed San Diego in front of 63,717 fans. In the first quarter, QB Steve DeBerg and WR J.J. Birden (left) hooked up on a 90-yard TD pass. Later, FB Bill Jones caught two scoring passes of two and six yards. DeBerg finished 11 of 24 for just 171 yards, but three TDs. The Chiefs defense had three interceptions from CBs Kevin Ross and Stan Petry and S Lloyd Burruss. K Nick Lowery had a pair of FGs.

SAY HAPPY BIRTHDAY …

Born on November 18, 1934 in Modesto, California was former Chiefs head coach Paul Wiggin (right). He joined the franchise as its second head coach in 1975, and had an 11-24 record before he was fired seven games into the ‘77 season. Wiggin played 11 seasons in the NFL with the Cleveland Browns (1957-67), appearing in 146 games as a defensive end. He was selected to two Pro Bowls and was a starter on the 1964 NFL championship team when the Browns beat Baltimore 27-0. After retiring as a player he was hired to be an assistant coach by the 49ers, where he worked until he was named head coach of the Chiefs on January 23, 1975. After he was fired by the Chiefs, Wiggin spent two seasons in New Orleans working as defensive coordinator and was hired as head coach at Stanford in 1980. He is currently working in the Vikings pro personnel department.

Born on November 18, 1956 in Los Angeles was Hall of Fame QB Warren Moon (left). He joined the Chiefs in 1999, after spending 15 seasons in the NFL with the Oilers, Vikings and Seahawks. Moon spent two years with the Chiefs (1999-2000), appearing in three games, with one start. He completed 16 of 37 passes for 228 yards, one TD and one INT. Those games were the last of his pro football career that began in the Canadian Football League with the Edmonton Eskimos, where he was part of five league champions. Over his CFL-NFL career, Moon threw for 60,553 yards, with 435 touchdown passes and 310 interceptions. He was elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame class of 2006.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 09:46 AM
funny how nothing was mentioned about this being haley's fault...

Tribal Warfare
11-18-2009, 09:47 AM
funny how nothing was mentioned about this being haley's fault...

LMAO, take a fucking midol dude

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 09:48 AM
So now it's 25 pounds, not 30? 246?

I find that SO hard to believe.

I wish SOMEONE would tell us where Haley set Bowe's target weight.

KCUnited
11-18-2009, 09:48 AM
Hopefully this guy won't balloon back up to 250 over the holiday.

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 09:53 AM
funny how nothing was mentioned about this being haley's fault...

How the fuck is this Haley's fault? Unless Haley gave him the diuretic and said take this, what does he have to do with it?

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 09:54 AM
what the fuck is so important about meeting an arbitrary weight goal? if this is really the reason for bowe taking the diuretic then yes i do blame haley

geronimo
11-18-2009, 09:54 AM
Maybe Haley mishandled -- Bowe who knows. Still no excuse for his situation. Haley's tactics are questionable and too this point over rated in my opinion. I can't point to one example where I can attribute his presence to better performance. I know it takes time and am willing to give him that. We know you can't win without Talent. The effective leader is the one who finds a way to put the talent in a position to perform. Let's hope it happens over the next couple of years.

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 09:56 AM
So now it's 25 pounds, not 30? 246?

I find that SO hard to believe.

I wish SOMEONE would tell us where Haley set Bowe's target weight.

He was trying to shed 25 pounds of water weight? Was it his time of the month?

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 09:58 AM
what the **** is so important about meeting an arbitrary weight goal? if this is really the reason for bowe taking the diuretic then yes i do blame haley

Why do you blame haley. They have deemed that Bowes body will play its best at a certain weight. Bowe was told to stay at that weight and didn't, and that's Haley's fault how?

I don't understand, we can't hold players accountable for their actions cause the coach has a fetish for yelling?

Chiefnj2
11-18-2009, 10:00 AM
It's amazing what a 2 win season does to fans.

3-4 months ago it was "Good for Haley making them get in shape", "the old regime was to laid back" "last year the team ran out of steam at the end of games and got gouged, the weight loss will help with conditioning."

2 wins and 4 months later - "Damn Haley for being so irresponsible", "The players didn't have any advice from doctors", "they didn't need to lose weight"...

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 10:00 AM
Maybe D. Bowe could hustle on over to Lawrence for the next four weeks, and help Coach Mangino, get his weight under control. Time well spent.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:01 AM
Why do you blame haley. They have deemed that Bowes body will play its best at a certain weight. Bowe was told to stay at that weight and didn't, and that's Haley's fault how?

I don't understand, we can't hold players accountable for their actions cause the coach has a fetish for yelling?

its just stupid thats why. bowe is a big physical reciever, not a burner. losing excessive amount of weight would HURT his play on the field not help it. Losing weight for the sake of losing weight is merely a tactic to enforce "my way or the highway" bullshit

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 10:03 AM
It's amazing what a 2 win season does to fans.

3-4 months ago it was "Good for Haley making them get in shape", "the old regime was to laid back" "last year the team ran out of steam at the end of games and got gouged, the weight loss will help with conditioning."

2 wins and 4 months later - "Damn Haley for being so irresponsible", "The players didn't have any advice from doctors", "they didn't need to lose weight"...

QFE

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:03 AM
It's amazing what a 2 win season does to fans.

3-4 months ago it was "Good for Haley making them get in shape", "the old regime was to laid back" "last year the team ran out of steam at the end of games and got gouged, the weight loss will help with conditioning."

2 wins and 4 months later - "Damn Haley for being so irresponsible", "The players didn't have any advice from doctors", "they didn't need to lose weight"...

i never said 'good for haley' in fact since this weight loss thing came out ive had a raised eyebrow over it. yeah you want your players conditioned but you dont want them to turn into Brandon Alberts.

jAZ
11-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Blaming Haley for expecting too much from the players is absolutely f-ing crazy.

Just f-ing crazy.

And my guess is that this is what was *really* going on:

http://boards.cannabis.com/drug-testing/162097-using-diuretic-pass-ua.html

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 10:04 AM
its just stupid thats why. bowe is a big physical reciever, not a burner. losing excessive amount of weight would HURT his play on the field not help it. Losing weight for the sake of losing weight is merely a tactic to enforce "my way or the highway" bullshit

Yeah, this regime is just totally clueless. They should have just converted Bowe to RT, damn them. It is so normal for a 23 year old to gain 30 pounds in the off season, they should just condone that.

Boris The Great
11-18-2009, 10:07 AM
if this is really the reason for bowe taking the diuretic then yes i do blame haley

The reason he took the diuretic is because he put on a bunch of weight.

Few things irritated the Chiefs more than when Bowe arrived to the team’s offseason conditioning program carrying an extra 30 pounds. Bowe is a possession receiver, and those players’ effectiveness can be influenced by a shift of three or four pounds.

Bowe had, in about three months, gained 10 times that amount.

Blaming Haley that Bowe resorted to diuretics would be like blaming Haley if someone gets popped for steroids today. Well, hell, if the coach didnt want him to be a better player, he never would have used the roids!

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:07 AM
Yeah, this regime is just totally clueless. They should have just converted Bowe to RT, damn them. It is so normal for a 23 year old to gain 30 pounds in the off season, they should just condone that.

an athlete of bowes caliber, any weight he gained naturally during the offseason would have just as easily come OFF naturally during the offseason without any diuretic being needed.

it sounds like they set the weight goal way too low

Chief Henry
11-18-2009, 10:08 AM
D. Bowe needs to grow up and be a man. He needs to mature and become a responsible human being.

I can't believe some people are blaming the head coach.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:10 AM
shit, i can gain 20 pounds in three months and EASILY lose it in less than a month just doing basic normal exercise, nothing compared to what they are put through during training camp.

Chief Henry
11-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Blaming Haley for expecting too much from the players is absolutely f-ing crazy.

Just f-ing crazy.

And my guess is that this is what was *really* going on:

http://boards.cannabis.com/drug-testing/162097-using-diuretic-pass-ua.html

this

DumbHillbillies
11-18-2009, 10:11 AM
Shortcuts never work out do they. Funny thing is I remember an interview he gave early on in training camp were he looked a lot smaller but sickly smaller. Face looked emaciated must have been the diuretics.

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 10:16 AM
its just stupid thats why. bowe is a big physical reciever, not a burner. losing excessive amount of weight would HURT his play on the field not help it. Losing weight for the sake of losing weight is merely a tactic to enforce "my way or the highway" bullshit

No he is not a burner. But let’s just say, using completely made up numbers, that at 250lbs. You can run a 4.8 / 40. But at 275 - 280 that 4.8 (which isn't horrible, but not fantastic either) drops to a 5.2 / 40. That is a big drop, and that weight affects your playing ability. Not to mention stamina. Again, this isn't muscle it's "water weight".

Look, when a player is designated to a certain play weight, it’s done for a reason, and done in a scientific way. It is not done because the coaches want to see what the players would look like with chubby cheeks or with a thin jaw line. And it is most certainly not decided by drawing random numbers out of a hat or by picking the first 3 numbers in someone’s favorite lotto pick.

Dwayne Bowe plays football for a living, his coach (boss) gave him his responsibilities, and he failed, and on top of that, he tried to cheat to make his fail not so apparent. In my opinion, it's Bowe's fault, and only Bowe's fault. And if you don't believe me, why don't you go tell your boss that you aren’t going to do one of the vital roles of your position or at the very least when you do do it, it will be late and half-assed at best.

It's way past time to stop coddling players. You may like Haley or may not, but right now it's his show, and he deserves a chance to do it his way. We have to give him time to get it going, and sadly that means another year or two of mediocrity.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:16 AM
Blaming Haley that Bowe resorted to diuretics would be like blaming Haley if someone gets popped for steroids today. Well, hell, if the coach didnt want him to be a better player, he never would have used the roids!

Bowe took the substance no doubt about it, otherwise he would appeal. However, why did Bowe take the substance? Was it to make him play better on the field or was it to meet an arbitrary weight metric set by the coaching staff?

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 10:19 AM
Bowe took the substance no doubt about it, otherwise he would appeal. However, why did Bowe take the substance? Was it to make him play better on the field or was it to meet an arbitrary weight metric set by the coaching staff?

So it's Haley's fault that Bowe took the substance instead of eating better, and working harder in the gym.

Sorry man, your thought process on this is way flawed.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:19 AM
He was trying to shed 25 pounds of water weight? Was it his time of the month?

I highly doubt it.

He was probably very close to making weight but wasn't quite there, so he took a diuretic.

I STILL don't believe he ballooned to anywhere from 246 to 251 (the reports being 25-30 pounds overweight).

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 10:22 AM
an athlete of bowes caliber, any weight he gained naturally during the offseason would have just as easily come OFF naturally during the offseason without any diuretic being needed.

it sounds like they set the weight goal way too low

I totally disagree, and doubt that is was just a spur of the moment arbitrary decision, ariving at the goal weight. Not one Haley came up with setting on the shitter one morning.

These players, especially of Bowe's caliber, are multi million dollar investments.

They would have had experts, look at his body make up, history etc. and arrive at a number.


For someone his age, to gain 30 lbs. over the off season, is not normal. That has to be about 15%.

Hell, when I was 23, I was 6 foot, 143 lbs. Could eat crap until I was broke, and not gain a lb. That changed in my 40s.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:23 AM
No he is not a burner. But let’s just say, using completely made up numbers, that at 250lbs. You can run a 4.8 / 40. But at 275 - 280 that 4.8 (which isn't horrible, but not fantastic either) drops to a 5.2 / 40. That is a big drop, and that weight affects your playing ability. Not to mention stamina. Again, this isn't muscle it's "water weight".

Look, when a player is designated to a certain play weight, it’s done for a reason, and done in a scientific way. It is not done because the coaches want to see what the players would look like with chubby cheeks or with a thin jaw line. And it is most certainly not decided by drawing random numbers out of a hat or by picking the first 3 numbers in someone’s favorite lotto pick.

Dwayne Bowe plays football for a living, his coach (boss) gave him his responsibilities, and he failed, and on top of that, he tried to cheat to make his fail not so apparent. In my opinion, it's Bowe's fault, and only Bowe's fault. And if you don't believe me, why don't you go tell your boss that you aren’t going to do one of the vital roles of your position or at the very least when you do do it, it will be late and half-assed at best.

It's way past time to stop coddling players. You may like Haley or may not, but right now it's his show, and he deserves a chance to do it his way. We have to give him time to get it going, and sadly that means another year or two of mediocrity.

Bowe has been one of the best recievers in the league since he came in three years ago. Let's just say he did get "lazy" during the offseason and just sit around eat ho-ho's and ding dongs and watch Captain Kangaroo all day long. Bowe could have easily come down to his playing weight of the previous season after a short time in training camp completely naturally.

Its way past time to give Haley a pass on everything. Until he starts winning games and his "tactics" start paying off, I will continue to be skeptical

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 10:23 AM
its just stupid thats why. bowe is a big physical reciever, not a burner. losing excessive amount of weight would HURT his play on the field not help it. Losing weight for the sake of losing weight is merely a tactic to enforce "my way or the highway" bullshit

This post is complete and total BS. The guy was over weight, he showed up that way, he had time to correct it, or stay in shape. Burner or not, he is a fucking WR, and has to have speed. WTF, you think he shows up this out of shape they should just deal with it and throw him in a TE or something. He is paid for his talent and his physical ability, his body should be a shrine to him, not a garbage disposal.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:24 AM
So it's Haley's fault that Bowe took the substance instead of eating better, and working harder in the gym.

Sorry man, your thought process on this is way flawed.

You know, not EVERYONE's metabolism allows them to hit an arbitrary weight. I knew plenty of major college football players that had to eat 7 or 8 times a day just to maintain weight. Conversely, I knew dudes that ate twice a day to make weight.

The problem with the reports by Babb and Gretz is that they don't state the TARGET WEIGHT. Was it 221? 218? 215? 210?

If it was 210, I could easily see Bowe at 235 in the offseason. He's listed at 221, which is just after training camp. I'm sure he plays somewhere between 225 & 230. It would be EASY to put on 15 pounds in the time between game 16 and the start of OTA's.

At this point, it's all speculation because NO ONE has reported the target weight.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:24 AM
I totally disagree, and doubt that is was just a spur of the moment arbitrary decision, ariving at the goal weight. Not one Haley came up with setting on the shitter one morning.

These players, especially of Bowe's caliber, are multi million dollar investments.

They would have had experts, look at his body make up, history etc. and arrive at a number.


For someone his age, to gain 30 lbs. over the off season, is not normal. That has to be about 15%.

Hell, when I was 23, I was 6 foot, 143 lbs. Could eat crap until I was broke, and not gain a lb. That changed in my 40s.

this whole weight loss thing has worked wonders for Albert so far

keg in kc
11-18-2009, 10:25 AM
Just going off memory, but I believe the story earlier in the year (I'm talking March or April) was that they wanted him playing in the 215 range, they thought he was too bulky, so 25 pounds over would mean 240. I think he's around 220 right now.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:26 AM
This post is complete and total BS. The guy was over weight, he showed up that way, he had time to correct it, or stay in shape. Burner or not, he is a fucking WR, and has to have speed. WTF, you think he shows up this out of shape they should just deal with it and throw him in a TE or something. He is paid for his talent and his physical ability, his body should be a shrine to him, not a garbage disposal.

there is no way an athlete like Bowe gained nothing but 30 pounds of fat during the offseason. i could do absolutely nothing but drink lard out of a tub and not gain 30 pounds in 3 months. think about it

penchief
11-18-2009, 10:26 AM
what the **** is so important about meeting an arbitrary weight goal? if this is really the reason for bowe taking the diuretic then yes i do blame haley

Who says it was arbitrary? If the dude was overweight he needed to lose the extra pounds. We could always go back to Club Herm where the players were pampered and consoled. Blaming Haley for Bowe's poor judgment is moronic, IMO.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:27 AM
Hell, when I was 23, I was 6 foot, 143 lbs. Could eat crap until I was broke, and not gain a lb. That changed in my 40s.

You just proved my point for me.

No way Bowe was 30 pounds overweight in 2 or 3 months.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:29 AM
Who says it was arbitrary? If the dude was overweight he needed to lose the extra pounds. We could always go back to Club Herm where the players were pampered and consoled. Blaming Haley for Bowe's poor judgment is moronic, IMO.

Who sets the weight goal?

Haley.

Why?

Because he fucking said so, that's why.

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 10:30 AM
You just proved my point for me.

No way Bowe was 30 pounds overweight in 2 or 3 months.

Now one of us is confused. Everything I have read, said he gained 30 lbs. over the off season, is that not correct?

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 10:34 AM
there is no way an athlete like Bowe gained nothing but 30 pounds of fat during the offseason. i could do absolutely nothing but drink lard out of a tub and not gain 30 pounds in 3 months. think about it

Who gives a fuck, he showed up at a weight that was over what he knew they wanted of him. He seems to be a joker that doesn't take shit serious. They pay him to do this shit, it is no ones fault but his own.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:34 AM
Now one of us is confused. Everything I have read, said he gained 30 lbs. over the off season, is that not correct?

Yeah, that's incorrect.

Kent Babb said he report to Spring workouts "30 pounds overweight".

Gretz says in this article it was "25 pounds overweight".

Overweight is subjective. Was he given a number to hit, say 215? But he reported at 240? Or did he arrive at 25-30 pounds over his listed weight, so 246-251? We don't know because neither man has offered specifics.

Either way, neither report stated that he "gained" 25 or 30 pounds. Just that he was 25-30 pounds "overweight".

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:34 AM
Now one of us is confused. Everything I have read, said he gained 30 lbs. over the off season, is that not correct?

30 lbs. of what? Muscle or fat. Big difference. Are you going to blame the guy for working too HARD during the offseason now? ROFL

penchief
11-18-2009, 10:35 AM
Who sets the weight goal?

Haley.

Why?

Because he ****ing said so, that's why.

That doesn't mean it was arbitrary.

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 10:35 AM
Who sets the weight goal?

Haley.

Why?

Because he ****ing said so, that's why.

So you honestly think Haley came up with the weight goal arbitrarily. Without consulting team doctors, looking at body make up etc?

If so, we are done here. No fucking way, it is a business, and Bowe is one of the businesses most valuable assets. Not going to happen.

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 10:35 AM
Who sets the weight goal?

Haley.

Why?

Because he fucking said so, that's why.

If you think they just pull this shit out of their ass you are a dumb shit.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:37 AM
Who gives a fuck, he showed up at a weight that was over what he knew they wanted of him. He seems to be a joker that doesn't take shit serious. They pay him to do this shit, it is no ones fault but his own.

Who gives a fuck? I do. I want to see this team be successful and win games, not have to worry about frantically lose weight to appease your dictator coach.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:38 AM
So you honestly think Haley came up with the weight goal arbitrarily. Without consulting team doctors, looking at body make up etc?

If so, we are done here. No fucking way, it is a business, and Bowe is one of the businesses most valuable assets. Not going to happen.

Why couldn't Bowe play at his weight from the previous season? 1,000 yards and 7 tds not good enough? losing another 10 pounds would double that?

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 10:39 AM
Who gives a fuck? I do. I want to see this team be successful and win games, not have to worry about frantically lose weight to appease your dictator coach.

He's a WR his fat ass has to get down the field, it's not Haley's fault.

Chiefnj2
11-18-2009, 10:39 AM
Who sets the weight goal?

Haley.

Why?

Because he ****ing said so, that's why.

Most teams set weight goals and have weight provisions in their player contracts.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:41 AM
He's a WR his fat ass has to get down the field, it's not Haley's fault.

If you think Bowe is "fat" than you're the dumbshit

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:41 AM
So you honestly think Haley came up with the weight goal arbitrarily. Without consulting team doctors, looking at body make up etc?

If so, we are done here. No fucking way, it is a business, and Bowe is one of the businesses most valuable assets. Not going to happen.

Ed, I disagree. For evidence, look to the Albert situation for proof.

Albert played at 340 last year and quite well I might add. Haley thought he was too "fat" and had him drop 30 pounds in a relatively short period of time. Not only did his play suffer but his metabolism, strength and endurance. He's also been tested for blood issues because of this rapid weight loss.

Having been around major college programs and knowing more than a little about how the NFL is run, I can absolutely guarantee you that Haley had no regard to the player; he wanted it done and wanted it done immediately. These players are just interchangeable parts for these guys.

Consequences be damned.

jidar
11-18-2009, 10:41 AM
Diuretic to lose weight... maybe... but that's a bit hard to believe.

Every god damned stoner on the block knows you take that shit to mask weed. There are other ways to lose weight that work better and don't get you flagged in a piss test.

soundmind
11-18-2009, 10:42 AM
its just stupid thats why. bowe is a big physical reciever, not a burner. losing excessive amount of weight would HURT his play on the field not help it. Losing weight for the sake of losing weight is merely a tactic to enforce "my way or the highway" bullshit

Wrong, simply wrong.

For the skills necessary to play that position, 246-250 pounds is guaranteed to be turd slow, and easily covered by corners weighing in around 190-200. You're a fool if you think that weight is "arbitrary"...250 would be fine if he were say 6'10" and cut up....

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 10:42 AM
If you think Bowe is "fat" than you're the dumbshit

He is not at his target weight at the time, so if that hurts his performance then the team suffers. He was a #1 pick, time for him to act like it.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:42 AM
Most teams set weight goals and have weight provisions in their player contracts.

Generally only for players with previous weight issues.

A weight provision for Dwayne Bowe would be ludicrous.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:44 AM
He is not at his target weight at the time, so if that hurts his performance then the team suffers. He was a #1 pick, time for him to act like it.

1,000 yards and 7 tds with Herm fucking Edwards as your coach isn't acting like a #1 pick? I think you're the one that needs to be drug tested brah

BigRock
11-18-2009, 10:45 AM
Kent Babb said he report to Spring workouts "30 pounds overweight".

Gretz says in this article it was "25 pounds overweight".

Overweight is subjective. Was he given a number to hit, say 215? But he reported at 240? Or did he arrive at 25-30 pounds over his listed weight, so 246-251? We don't know because neither man has offered specifics.

Either way, neither report stated that he "gained" 25 or 30 pounds. Just that he was 25-30 pounds "overweight".

Babb said point blank in his Star article that Bowe gained 30 pounds from January to March.

We can sit around all day saying we don't believe it, but two separate sources are saying it's true (albeit with a 5 pound disagreement).

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 10:46 AM
Generally only for players with previous weight issues.

A weight provision for Dwayne Bowe would be ludicrous.

Do you think he would play WR well at 235-250? 280 next year?

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:46 AM
Wrong, simply wrong.

For the skills necessary to play that position, 246-250 pounds is guaranteed to be turd slow, and easily covered by corners weighing in around 190-200. You're a fool if you think that weight is "arbitrary"...250 would be fine if he were say 6'10" and cut up....

Bowe is cut up. The guy is built like TO

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 10:49 AM
1,000 yards and 7 tds with Herm fucking Edwards as your coach isn't acting like a #1 pick? I think you're the one that needs to be drug tested brah

If he wouldn't Morton half of his fucking balls his numbers would have been even better. He could put in the extra work, but I doubt with his mind set he did.

This is on him, he has never hit his peak, still makes mistakes and this is another one to add to it. Did he have good stats, yes. Could they be better, defiantly.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:49 AM
Do you think he would play WR well at 235-250?

I think it totally depends on the player, their height and their physical makeup.

LTL
11-18-2009, 10:50 AM
Ed, I disagree. For evidence, look to the Albert situation for proof.

Albert played at 340 last year and quite well I might add. Haley thought he was too "fat" and had him drop 30 pounds in a relatively short period of time. Not only did his play suffer but his metabolism, strength and endurance. He's also been tested for blood issues because of this rapid weight loss.

Having been around major college programs and knowing more than a little about how the NFL is run, I can absolutely guarantee you that Haley had no regard to the player; he wanted it done and wanted it done immediately. These players are just interchangeable parts for these guys.

Consequences be damned.

I guess it would depend on when he wanted the goal met. If the players knew back in March what their targeted weight was, and if he wanted it done by the start of training camp, 30lbs in 4 months isn't that bad. That is right at about 2lbs per week which is what is considered a healthy amount to lose per week.

Problem is, we have no idea how much or how much time he gave them.

wasi
11-18-2009, 10:50 AM
Why couldn't Bowe play at his weight from the previous season? 1,000 yards and 7 tds not good enough? losing another 10 pounds would double that?

He could, but keeping yourself in condition in the offseason so you hit training camp and the preseason in shape, knowing where to line up, playing hard every play, run blocking downfield and hustling back to the line of scrimmage are all fundamental to what this coaching staff want to instill in the players minds. Right or wrong, successful or not that is where we are at and it's not a new thing or a uncommon practise in the NFL. It's not different than getting fined for missing meetings, which every team in the NFL does.

It's a new perios in the organization and I can't believe after all the lack of success we as fans have gone through most fans won't let this thing play out.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:51 AM
If he wouldn't Morton half of his fucking balls his numbers would have been even better. He could put in the extra work, but I doubt with his mind set he did.

This is on him, he has never hit his peak, still makes mistakes and this is another one to add to it. Did he have good stats, yes. Could they be better, defiantly.

DUDE!

This fucking guy had consecutive 1,000 yard seasons with fucking Brodie Croyle, Tyler Thigpen and Damon Huard throwing him the ball!

It's not like he's playing with Manning, Favre, Brady, Warner, Brees or even Rivers.

HUARD, THIGPEN, CROYLE!

Give the guy some slack. I'd say he's done an incredible job, given the talent of this football team.

NO ONE is perfect.

BigRock
11-18-2009, 10:51 AM
Anyone want to share a link on this stuff about Branden Albert's suffering metabolism and all this?

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 10:52 AM
Who sets the weight goal?

Haley.

Why?

Because he ****ing said so, that's why.

Bullshit. and you know thats bullshit. Every team hires Training coaches, and invests money to have players at the proper build.

You bitterness towards Haley is blurring some of your perspective.

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 10:53 AM
You know, not EVERYONE's metabolism allows them to hit an arbitrary weight. I knew plenty of major college football players that had to eat 7 or 8 times a day just to maintain weight. Conversely, I knew dudes that ate twice a day to make weight.

The problem with the reports by Babb and Gretz is that they don't state the TARGET WEIGHT. Was it 221? 218? 215? 210?

If it was 210, I could easily see Bowe at 235 in the offseason. He's listed at 221, which is just after training camp. I'm sure he plays somewhere between 225 & 230. It would be EASY to put on 15 pounds in the time between game 16 and the start of OTA's.

At this point, it's all speculation because NO ONE has reported the target weight.

Very true. I'm just making generalizations because as you said, we don't have the complete facts. In any case, taking the pill, still not the right answer, and still not Haley's fault.

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 10:55 AM
30 lbs. of what? Muscle or fat. Big difference. Are you going to blame the guy for working too HARD during the offseason now? ROFL

Believe it or not, this can be an issue too. What was that recievers name a few years ago? David Boston? He was a gym rat, and constantly showed up overweight, muscle weight to camps. And it was a very big problem for him.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Wrong, simply wrong.

For the skills necessary to play that position, 246-250 pounds is guaranteed to be turd slow, and easily covered by corners weighing in around 190-200. You're a fool if you think that weight is "arbitrary"...250 would be fine if he were say 6'10" and cut up....

Some guys are built to do one thing or the other. Why didn't Vermeil insist that Dante put on extra weight so he could bang with safetys and LBs. because hes a fucking burner thats why

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Very true. I'm just making generalizations because as you said, we don't have the complete facts. In any case, taking the pill, still not the right answer, and still not Haley's fault.

The only way it's "Haley's fault" is if Haley had unrealistic expectations for Bowe, i.e. an unmanageable amount of weight loss in short period of time, etc.

All I can say is that I have NEVER seen a picture of Dwayne Bowe were he didn't look lean and ripped.

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 10:57 AM
DUDE!

This fucking guy had consecutive 1,000 yard seasons with fucking Brodie Croyle, Tyler Thigpen and Damon Huard throwing him the ball!

It's not like he's playing with Manning, Favre, Brady, Warner, Brees or even Rivers.

HUARD, THIGPEN, CROYLE!

Give the guy some slack. I'd say he's done an incredible job, given the talent of this football team.

NO ONE is perfect.

DUDE, THAT'S THE FUCKING PONT, he could be even better. JFC just because you're good doesn't mean that you need to be content, he could be great. TG put in the extra effort, seemed to work out for him.

Tiger Woods was almost untouchable, still changed his swing to be even better than he already was/ Todd Haley

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 10:57 AM
Who gives a ****? I do. I want to see this team be successful and win games, not have to worry about frantically lose weight to appease your dictator coach.

You're hilarious man. You're upset becasue Bowe bitched out on doing what every playing in the NFL has to do, and because you dislike Haley, you think Bowe is innocent.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 10:58 AM
Believe it or not, this can be an issue too. What was that recievers name a few years ago? David Boston? He was a gym rat, and constantly showed up overweight, muscle weight to camps. And it was a very big problem for him.

Boston did roids. If Bowe did roids and the diuretic was used to mask it then all the culpability is on his shoulders.

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 11:00 AM
Anyone want to share a link on this stuff about Branden Albert's suffering metabolism and all this?

Yeah, I would like to read that one myself.

milkman is the resident expert on Albert, and I truly believe his interpretation of Albert's 09 play. He is learning LT technique this year, being coached properly, and it is new to him.

jidar
11-18-2009, 11:00 AM
He gained 30 lbs because he had the fucking munchies from smoking so much weed which is also why he had to use the diuretic.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:01 AM
He gained 30 lbs because he had the fucking munchies from smoking so much weed which is also why he had to use the diuretic.


then we should legalize weed so athletes will stop getting suspended. ;)

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 11:01 AM
Bowe took a banned substance and that's the coach's fault? Did he get Bowe in a chokehold and force him to take the stuff?

jidar
11-18-2009, 11:01 AM
then we should legalize weed so athletes will stop getting suspended. ;)

I agree

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 11:02 AM
Boston did roids. If Bowe did roids and the diuretic was used to mask it then all the culpability is on his shoulders.

It's on his shoulders anyhow.

If you are an over the road truck driver and your boss wants a hard pushing week, would it be his fault if the driver got popped with meth........

jidar
11-18-2009, 11:02 AM
Bowe took a banned substance and that's the coach's fault? Did he get Bowe in a chokehold and force him to take the stuff?

No but he went up to him and said

JESUS CHRIST BOWE, TAKE THESE FUCKING PILLS
FUCK

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:02 AM
Bowe took a banned substance and that's the coach's fault? Did he get Bowe in a chokehold and force him to take the stuff?

yeah that was covered in like the first 10 posts. good insight though, funny.

Shag
11-18-2009, 11:03 AM
Boston did roids. If Bowe did roids and the diuretic was used to mask it then all the culpability is on his shoulders.

What if he did 'roids in order to meet performance goals placed on him by Haley? Would that be Haley's fault, too?

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 11:04 AM
Babb said point blank in his Star article that Bowe gained 30 pounds from January to March.

We can sit around all day saying we don't believe it, but two separate sources are saying it's true (albeit with a 5 pound disagreement).

That is the way I remember it. So he gained 10 lbs. a month basically. He was obviously showing a weight issue trend.

Brock
11-18-2009, 11:05 AM
A guy like Bowe could lose 30 pounds (of fat) in a couple of months without using drugs to do it.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:06 AM
What if he did 'roids in order to meet performance goals placed on him by Haley? Would that be Haley's fault, too?

if they were "performance goals" that had nothing to do with actual performance on the field than yes. What if he wanted every WR to compete in the strong man competition? "Boys, if you can drag a double-decker bus then you can drag a linebacker into the endzone. GO FOR IT"

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:07 AM
A guy like Bowe could lose 30 pounds (of fat) in a couple of months without using drugs to do it.

Yeah i said that already, but apparently thats not good enough. If Haley says jump you take your pills and jump bitches.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 11:08 AM
Babb said point blank in his Star article that Bowe gained 30 pounds from January to March.

We can sit around all day saying we don't believe it, but two separate sources are saying it's true (albeit with a 5 pound disagreement).

No, he did NOT.

The article stated that "The third-year wideout reported to the team's offseason conditioning program a staggering 30 pounds overweight."

http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/1106

That does NOT state that he put on 10 pounds, per month, from January to March.

Furthermore, Babb's a fucking idiot. He's reported incorrect information in the past and this quote reads like a press release from the Chiefs, not actual investigative reporting.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 11:08 AM
yeah that was covered in like the first 10 posts. good insight though, funny.

1.) Teams have target weights for players. It's not a "Dictator Haley" thing, it's an NFL thing.

2.) There are ways to lose weight without resorting to banned diuretics.

3.) If you avoid gaining the weight, you don't end up needing to take banned substances to lose the weight.

You can't seem to get it through your head. Bowe's actions were his own, and he is solely to blame.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:10 AM
im getting a headache arguing in circles. you guys are the same ones that justified trading JA before it even happened

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 11:11 AM
That is the way I remember it. So he gained 10 lbs. a month basically. He was obviously showing a weight issue trend.

Actually, if this is really true (which I still don't believe), it would be more like 15 pounds per month because the end of the season was the first week of January 2009 and they began reporting for Spring workouts the first or second week of March.

15 pounds per month.

How in the hell could a world class athlete put on 15 pounds per month of excessive weight? Did he only eat pizza and drink beer without moving during that time? Would that even do it?

That's a lot of weight for a kid his age.

Shag
11-18-2009, 11:12 AM
if they were "performance goals" that had nothing to do with actual performance on the field than yes. What if he wanted every WR to compete in the strong man competition? "Boys, if you can drag a double-decker bus then you can drag a linebacker into the endzone. GO FOR IT"

So, a player's weight has nothing to do with their performance on the field? Bowe at 280 would perform the same as Bowe at 250 and Bowe at 220?

Regardless of the reason, Bowe taking the diuretic is 100% on him. If Haley had unrealistic weight expectations, that's another issue entirely. Regardless of the reason, you have to be smarter than to take a banned substance. I guarantee you that Bowe missing his target weight would have had much less consequence than taking the diuretic.

Using a banned substance to meet ANY goal is idiotic, and 100% the responsibility of the player who chose to take that banned substance. Personal responsibility.

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 11:22 AM
Actually, if this is really true (which I still don't believe), it would be more like 15 pounds per month because the end of the season was the first week of January 2009 and they began reporting for Spring workouts the first or second week of March.

15 pounds per month.

How in the hell could a world class athlete put on 15 pounds per month of excessive weight? Did he only eat pizza and drink beer without moving during that time? Would that even do it?

That's a lot of weight for a kid his age.

I agree, and we are trying to put together bits of information, from a source on lock down. If it is true, it is a trend that the staff SHOULD address.

chiefsfan4life1978
11-18-2009, 11:25 AM
after reading whitlock's article on mangino, then reading gretz's article in this thread it provoked an idea in my head. take the three aforementioned fatasses and stick them in the middle of our line........

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 11:26 AM
im getting a headache arguing in circles. you guys are the same ones that justified trading JA before it even happened

ROFL nice connection, because we are all on CP? Go back and check the threads, I was totally against the trade of JA, from beginning to end.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 11:30 AM
Using a banned substance to meet ANY goal is idiotic, and 100% the responsibility of the player who chose to take that banned substance. Personal responsibility.

To repeat, they ALL take banned substances.

It's just that MOST don't get caught.

chiefsfan4life1978
11-18-2009, 11:31 AM
after reading whitlock's article on mangino, then reading gretz's article in this thread it provoked an idea in my head. take the three aforementioned fatasses and stick them in the middle of our line........

even if the fat bastards just stood there, it would take the defense quite awhile to get around that heap of lard and cassell would feel like he had all day to throw:drool:

FringeNC
11-18-2009, 11:33 AM
Diuretic to lose weight... maybe... but that's a bit hard to believe.

Every god damned stoner on the block knows you take that shit to mask weed. There are other ways to lose weight that work better and don't get you flagged in a piss test.


Any weight loss from a water pill is temporary. The stoner story sounds much more plausible.

KCtotheSB
11-18-2009, 11:40 AM
Bowe gets paid a shitload amount of money to stay in shape and play a game kids play out in the schoolyard. Fuck anyone that thinks this is Haley's fault more than it is Bowe's for not keeping himself in shape while getting paid millions to do it.

MahiMike
11-18-2009, 11:41 AM
He lost the weight and STILL can't get open! I think Pioli is more ticked now than ever since his trade value just went down. Then again, maybe that's why the 4 game suspension is happening now instead of next season. hmmm....

Demonpenz
11-18-2009, 11:41 AM
Blaming Haley for expecting too much from the players is absolutely f-ing crazy.

Just f-ing crazy.

And my guess is that this is what was *really* going on:

http://boards.cannabis.com/drug-testing/162097-using-diuretic-pass-ua.html

killshot

DenverDanChiefsFan
11-18-2009, 11:44 AM
If you think they just pull this shit out of their ass you are a dumb shit.This.

Shag
11-18-2009, 11:47 AM
I didn't mean you specifically but the way some posters are so quick to blame the players and never the FO or the coaching staff.

Read this thread and you can see very similar rationale to trading JA to what happened to Bowe.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=158778

ROFL

Bowe takes a banned substance and he's the victim...

beach tribe
11-18-2009, 11:47 AM
Anybody who says this is Haley's fault is fuqin moron.

Yep, that's right dumbass. You're a moron.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:48 AM
I didn't mean you specifically but the way some posters are so quick to blame the players and never the FO or the coaching staff.

Read this thread and you can see very similar rationale to trading JA to what happened to Bowe.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=158778

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 11:48 AM
I didn't mean you specifically but the way some posters are so quick to blame the players and never the FO or the coaching staff.

Read this thread and you can see very similar rationale to trading JA to what happened to Bowe.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=158778

Bowe took a banned substance, either to drop weight or mask drug use. That's not on Haley no matter how many posts you use trying to claim it is. Disagreeing with you because you're making a poor argument by blaming the coach instead of the player has nothing to do with Jared Allen, Ethan Allen or Allen Funt.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:49 AM
http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=158778

lol, mecca had a post in there defending the trade Jared crowd.

beach tribe
11-18-2009, 11:50 AM
To repeat, they ALL take banned substances.

It's just that MOST don't get caught.

Wrong. Why the hell would they ALL risk missing 4 games??

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 11:50 AM
Wrong. Why the hell would they ALL risk missing 4 games??

Dude, please.

:shake:

How about NOT HAVING AN NFL CAREER AT ALL?

I find it hilarious that MLB baseball players aren't nearly as ripped as NFL players, yet they're routinely busted for steroid use.

Yet, we're supposed to believe that NFL players aren't using 'roids? Fuck, half the NFL is on HGH.

beach tribe
11-18-2009, 11:51 AM
Dude, please.

:shake:

Give me a break dude.

Are there a lot of dumbasses? Sure.

But it's not even the majority, much less, all of them.

wasi
11-18-2009, 11:52 AM
I thinks it's fitting that L.A. Chieffan is actually almost defending drug use.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:52 AM
Bowe took a banned substance, either to drop weight or mask drug use. That's not on Haley no matter how many posts you use trying to claim it is. Disagreeing with you because you're making a poor argument by blaming the coach instead of the player has nothing to do with Jared Allen, Ethan Allen or Allen Funt.

apparently its been established he was using it to lose weight. Don't you think any weight Bowe might have put on over the offseason he could have done it naturally through training camp without resorting to artificial means and possible suspensions and everything else?

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:53 AM
I thinks it's fitting that L.A. Chieffan is actually almost defending drug use.

uh, why?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 11:53 AM
Give me a break dude.

Are there a lot of dumbasses? Sure.

But it's not even the majority, much less, all of them.

Really? And A-Rod didn't use 'riods, either?

LMAO

ALL of these guys are using performance enhancing drugs, whether it's steroids or HGH, etc.

MOST don't get caught.

You are EXTREMELY naive to believe otherwise.

What's a 4 game ban versus NOT playing in the NFL?

Oh yeah, it's a no-brainer.

KCUnited
11-18-2009, 11:53 AM
Dorsey is an example of a guy who had an aggressive target weight set for him. He hadn't met it when he showed up to camp. His ass was on a stationary bike working to meet that weight. Just because Bowe wasn't at his target weight before a certain deadline doesn't excuse taking any sort of banned substance. I get that all guys take something, that's on them. I'm starting to buy the weed thing.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 11:54 AM
ROFL

Bowe takes a banned substance and he's the victim...

not at all. are you saying JA getting a DUI makes him a victim? thats weird.

BigRock
11-18-2009, 11:55 AM
No, he did NOT.

Yes, he did TOO. I think it's been posted in this thread already, in fact.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/1577014.html

Few things irritated the Chiefs more than when Bowe arrived to the team’s offseason conditioning program carrying an extra 30 pounds. Bowe is a possession receiver, and those players’ effectiveness can be influenced by a shift of three or four pounds. Bowe had, in about three months, gained 10 times that amount.

That final line seems to be a clear and direct statement that he gained 30 pounds in 3 months.

Furthermore, Babb's a fucking idiot. He's reported incorrect information in the past and this quote reads like a press release from the Chiefs, not actual investigative reporting.

I don't disagree with the first line, but I base that more on what I've seen of his opinions (blog and twitter) as opposed to his actual Star writing. But thinking he's dumb is a far cry from saying he's not doing his job as a reporter.

kaplin42
11-18-2009, 11:57 AM
apparently its been established he was using it to lose weight. Don't you think any weight Bowe might have put on over the offseason he could have done it naturally through training camp without resorting to artificial means and possible suspensions and everything else?

Yeah, most definately. But apparently Bowe didn't think so, and thus took a pill, which consequently resulted in a suspension.

So unless your argument is that Haley had Mangino sit on Bowe while he forced this pill down his throat, the whole mess resides on Bowes head for being a dumbass.

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 11:59 AM
lol, mecca had a post in there defending the trade Jared crowd.

There were lots of posters defending Carl's position.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 12:01 PM
Yes, he did TOO. I think it's been posted in this thread already, in fact.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/1577014.html

That final line seems to be a clear and direct statement that he gained 30 pounds in 3 months.



First off, you're inferring that he gained 30 pounds in three months, not that he showed up 30 pounds "overweight" (whatever THAT is).

Babb is a fucking DROOLING moron. I believe for ONE SECOND that he did ANY investigative reporting on this story. I honestly believe he took the Chiefs word for this and didn't investigate.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:02 PM
http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=158778

shit, looking back at it, it was pretty much just me and direckshun that wanted to keep JA at all costs. everybody else was pretty much ready to boot him out the door and pat Carl on the back. LOL!

wasi
11-18-2009, 12:02 PM
uh, why?

Because of the perception that many people have. In Hollywood and probably L.A. in general there is a rampant use of diet drugs and plastic surgery among other things to cut corners or "cheat" to look good.

Bowe cheated, he's paying the price. It's a lost season anyway. Let's move on, get the suspension over with and move on with or without Bowe. Same went for Pollard, LJ and TG.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:03 PM
There were lots of posters defending Carl's position.

I know, I forgot about all those people. HAHA this board is full of idiots. Youre cool though ed

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:03 PM
Because of the perception that many people have. In Hollywood and probably L.A. in general there is a rampant use of diet drugs and plastic surgery among other things to cut corners or "cheat" to look good.



um, what?

Shag
11-18-2009, 12:04 PM
apparently its been established he was using it to lose weight. Don't you think any weight Bowe might have put on over the offseason he could have done it naturally through training camp without resorting to artificial means and possible suspensions and everything else?

Or, he could have done it naturally in the offseason.

Apparently, you're okay with players showing up to TC overweight, as long as they lose that weight in TC. So TC = fat camp. Sounds like a good use of TC time...

Pestilence
11-18-2009, 12:05 PM
Actually, if this is really true (which I still don't believe), it would be more like 15 pounds per month because the end of the season was the first week of January 2009 and they began reporting for Spring workouts the first or second week of March.

15 pounds per month.

How in the hell could a world class athlete put on 15 pounds per month of excessive weight? Did he only eat pizza and drink beer without moving during that time? Would that even do it?

That's a lot of weight for a kid his age.

This.

The fact that he's an athlete....would mean that his metabolism would be through the roof. I think it would be hard for him to gain around 15 lbs a month unless he's eating 20,000 calories a day of complete shit.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Or, he could have done it naturally in the offseason.

Apparently, you're okay with players showing up to TC overweight, as long as they lose that weight in TC. So TC = fat camp. Sounds like a good use of TC time...

Uh, no. I'm saying the weight goal they had set for Bowe was completely unrealistic. There is no way Bowe was a fatass and showed up 30 lbs. "overweight"

wasi
11-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Or, he could have done it naturally in the offseason.

Apparently, you're okay with players showing up to TC overweight, as long as they lose that weight in TC. So TC = fat camp. Sounds like a good use of TC time...

Exactly what Haley has said TC is NOT for.. Haley credits Parcells for teaching him this. That's pretty good precidence IMO.

Shag
11-18-2009, 12:07 PM
Uh, no. I'm saying the weight goal they had set for Bowe was completely unrealistic. There is no way Bowe was a fatass and showed up 30 lbs. "overweight"

Link?

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 12:10 PM
apparently its been established he was using it to lose weight. Don't you think any weight Bowe might have put on over the offseason he could have done it naturally through training camp without resorting to artificial means and possible suspensions and everything else?

How has it "been established" that he was using it to lose weight? That's been claimed, not established, from what I've read. In order to "establish" that the diuretic was for weight loss and not drug masking, Bowe would have to prove that he wasn't taking any illegal or banned substances at the time.

As for putting on weight, who gives a damn? If you're supposed to report at 220, for example, and you allow your weight to get up to 230, you don't blame the coach for those 10 pounds, and you don't blame the coach if you get busted while trying to dump those 10 pounds.

Wrestlers have to make weight. Boxers have to make weight. NFL players have to make weight. It's part of the job. Blaming the coach because a player fails to make that weight is ridiculous, unless you're going to claim that the target weight was unreasonable. Unfortunately for your argument, since you don't know the target weight and all the factors which would go into figuring out if it was a reasonable number, you really can't make that claim.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:13 PM
How has it "been established" that he was using it to lose weight? That's been claimed, not established, from what I've read. In order to "establish" that the diuretic was for weight loss and not drug masking, Bowe would have to prove that he wasn't taking any illegal or banned substances at the time.

As for putting on weight, who gives a damn? If you're supposed to report at 220, for example, and you allow your weight to get up to 230, you don't blame the coach for those 10 pounds, and you don't blame the coach if you get busted while trying to dump those 10 pounds.

Wrestlers have to make weight. Boxers have to make weight. NFL players have to make weight. It's part of the job. Blaming the coach because a player fails to make that weight is ridiculous, unless you're going to claim that the target weight was unreasonable. Unfortunately for your argument, since you don't know the target weight, you really can't make that claim.

the article in the OP and others have said that is what he was using it for, I'm not making this up.

nobody knows what the target wight was but if it was less than what he played at last year then whats the point?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 12:17 PM
Because of the perception that many people have. In Hollywood and probably L.A. in general there is a rampant use of diet drugs and plastic surgery among other things to cut corners or "cheat" to look good.

LMAO

Yeah, all 20+ million people that live in the Los Angeles basin are either using diet pills and/or have had plastic surgery.

ROFL

Clearly, you've never been to Los Angeles.

Tuckdaddy
11-18-2009, 12:17 PM
Haley didn't shove illegal drugs into Bowe. Bowe mishandled Bowe.

wasi
11-18-2009, 12:18 PM
um, what?

Hypothetically, if you asked 100 people if they thought the use of non-natural methods (including diet pills, plastic surgery etc.) to get a certain weight or look a certain way was more common in L.A. compared to any other place in the USA, don't you think that you would get the majority of those people saying that in L.A. it is more prevalent to not do it by working out, dieting properly etc?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 12:19 PM
Hypothetically, if you asked 100 people if they thought the use of non-natural methods (including diet pills, plastic surgery etc.) to get a certain weight or look a certain way was more common in L.A. compared to any other place in the USA, don't you think that you would get the majority of those people saying that in L.A. it is more prevalent to not do it by working out, dieting properly etc?

You're fucking insane.

Nice generalization, though.

:rolleyes:

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 12:20 PM
shit, looking back at it, it was pretty much just me and direckshun that wanted to keep JA at all costs. everybody else was pretty much ready to boot him out the door and pat Carl on the back. LOL!

This was my only post in that thread. There was a thread I remember saying he was the best impact player since DT, and they should not be trading him.

I don't remember ever seeing Allen take a play off. He plays like he enjoys the game, I hope they get the right thing done.
:D

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 12:21 PM
the article in the OP and others have said that is what he was using it for, I'm not making this up.

I didn't say you were making it up. I'm simply noting that the weight loss argument could be complete bullshit. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that sort of excuse was drummed up by someone violating a drug policy.

nobody knows what the target wight was but if it was less than what he played at last year then whats the point?

The point is that he missed the weight and you have nothing to prove the target number was unreasonable. The target weight for Bowe under the old regime is irrelevant, unless you're arguing about reasonableness, and you don't even know if they were different weights.

Sure-Oz
11-18-2009, 12:21 PM
LMAO

Yeah, all 20+ million people that live in the Los Angeles basin are either using diet pills and/or have had plastic surgery.

ROFL

Clearly, you've never been to Los Angeles.

I was so waiting for this post ROFL

wasi
11-18-2009, 12:28 PM
You're ****ing insane.

Nice generalization, though.

:rolleyes:

I'm stating fact, nor am I saying everyone in L.A. does it. It's a perception I know a lot of people I know have, true or not. Not saying it's right or wrong either, I'm just saying that it seems like most people I know think that it happens more in L.A. than say K.C.

Maybe it's just media and all the shows based in L.A. and Hollywood. Again, I'm not stating fact, I just found it fitting from my own point of view that L.A.Chieffan was the person most defending Bowe for his actions.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:30 PM
I'm stating fact, nor am I saying everyone in L.A. does it. It's a perception I know a lot of people I know have, true or not. Not saying it's right or wrong either, I'm just saying that it seems like most people I know think that it happens more in L.A. than say K.C.

Maybe it's just media and all the shows based in L.A. and Hollywood. Again, I'm not stating fact, I just found it fitting from my own point of view that L.A.Chieffan was the person most defending Bowe for his actions.

Youre absolutely right. i live in LA, take steroids, inject botox, swallow diet pills by the case and that is why I feel a deep connection with Bowe.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:33 PM
The point is that he missed the weight and you have nothing to prove the target number was unreasonable. The target weight for Bowe under the old regime is irrelevant, unless you're arguing about reasonableness, and you don't even know if they were different weights.

I do think that it is unreasonable due to the simple fact that Bowe felt the need to risk suspension and stigma on his career just to satisfy a number set by the new regime. Especially since Bowes skillset is one of being bigger and more physical than his secondary counterparts, not thinner or faster.

BigRock
11-18-2009, 12:35 PM
First off, you're inferring that he gained 30 pounds in three months

Well, yes. I'm inferring that because that's exactly what it says.

Bowe had, in about three months, gained 10 times that amount.

"10 times that amount", since I didn't include the full quote, referred to a weight of 3-4 pounds. 10 times 3 is 30. "Three months" is specifically stated.

I don't understand where the confusion is stemming from.

Babb is a fucking DROOLING moron. I believe for ONE SECOND that he did ANY investigative reporting on this story. I honestly believe he took the Chiefs word for this and didn't investigate.

I have to say, for someone who's practically been on the Jason Whitlock defense team the last few months, that's an amazingly critical eye you have towards Kent F'N Babb of all people.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
11-18-2009, 12:37 PM
I have to say, for someone who's practically been on the Jason Whitlock defense team the last few months, that's an amazingly critical eye you have towards Kent F'N Babb of all people.

Isn't his usual defense of Jason that "The Star wouldn't let him print something that wasn't true."?

And then he basically accuses Babb of lying? In the Star?

So, is the Star inconsistent?

They fact-check Jason and don't Ken?

:rolleyes:

Demonpenz
11-18-2009, 12:38 PM
man, he should really use this to cross market himself with the weightloss community. Tai Bowe!

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 12:39 PM
Youre absolutely right. i live in LA, take steroids, inject botox, swallow diet pills by the case and that is why I feel a deep connection with Bowe.

Oh, I meant to tell you: Your botox appointment has been rescheduled and I've got a box of HGH sitting in my garage waiting for you to pick up.

Pronto, motherfucker!

wasi
11-18-2009, 12:40 PM
Youre absolutely right. i live in LA, take steroids, inject botox, swallow diet pills by the case and that is why I feel a deep connection with Bowe.

I wasn't implying that, it was just funny to me that you happened to be from L.A. It's no different than someone saying that because I'm Canadian I hate America and I would harbour a terrorist. Which has happened here.

I was done in jest, I meant no disrespect toward you or any Los Angelian.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 12:40 PM
I do think that it is unreasonable due to the simple fact that Bowe felt the need to risk suspension and stigma on his career just to satisfy a number set by the new regime. Especially since Bowes skillset is one of being bigger and more physical than his secondary counterparts, not thinner or faster.

Was Bowe's target weight under the new regime higher, or lower, than the target rate of the old regime, and by how much? Was it higher than his college weight? Was it higher than his rookie playing weight? Was it a weight worked out with dieticians, or using some form of supportable reasoning, or was the number just pulled out of Haley's ass?

You don't know the answers. Since you don't know the answers, you're basically claiming that any target weight is unreasonable, because you're trying to blame the coach rather than the player.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 12:46 PM
I don't understand where the confusion is stemming from.

Here's the problem I have with Babb's reporting in this case: He states that Bowe was 30 pounds overweight. He NEVER listed Bowe's weight when he arrived.

It's an arbitrary number.

Secondly, there's no detail as to how or why Bowe supposedly gained "30 pounds". Did he go hog wild eating? Depression? Death in the family?

There's NO detail or explanation and personally, I find that to be very poor journalism.

And why do I dislike Babb's writing? Well for one, he's consistently wrong about the facts. In the first Raiders game, he Tweeted that Zach Miller was inactive. A quick look by me proved that to be false. It was Zach Miller of the Jaguars. About two hours later, he corrected.

Also, he constantly and consistently picks the Chiefs to win each week. He's not an objective journalist: He's a homer. And when a "Homer" reports on their favorite team, their writing is generally skewed.

Personally, I prefer objective reporting and Babb does NOT fit that bill.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 12:49 PM
Here's the problem I have with Babb's reporting in this case: He states that Bowe was 30 pounds overweight. He NEVER listed Bowe's weight when he arrived.

It's an arbitrary number.

What is your proof that the number is arbitrary?

Secondly, there's no detail as to how or why Bowe supposedly gained "30 pounds". Did he go hog wild eating? Depression? Death in the family?

Would any of that change the fact of the weight gain?

Demonpenz
11-18-2009, 12:49 PM
gaining wait is easy when you eat

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 12:49 PM
Was Bowe's target weight under the new regime higher, or lower, than the target rate of the old regime, and by how much? Was it higher than his college weight? Was it higher than his rookie playing weight? Was it a weight worked out with dieticians, or using some form of supportable reasoning, or was the number just pulled out of Haley's ass?

You don't know the answers. Since you don't know the answers, you're basically claiming that any target weight is unreasonable, because you're trying to blame the coach rather than the player.

You don't know the answers to any of these questions either. Maybe Haley had a stick up his ass against Bowe from the beginning. Remember the depth chart thing and when he caught that touchdown the cameras caught Haley screaming at Bowe, "DONT LET ME BREAK YOU!" Yeah great motivational tactics there dude. :rolleyes:

Do you take Haley's cock out your mouth before you type this shit?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 12:50 PM
I wasn't implying that, it was just funny to me that you happened to be from L.A. It's no different than someone saying that because I'm Canadian I hate America and I would harbour a terrorist. Which has happened here.

I was done in jest, I meant no disrespect toward you or any Los Angelian.

Dude, I toured Canada in 1993 for six weeks. Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Halifax, St. John's, St. John, Fredrickton and probably a few other towns I'm forgetting.

It was AWESOME.

The beer, the food and especially the beautiful women (Quebec and Montreal were freaking unreal). It was one of the funnest times in my life. I've since visited Vancouver and had a blast there as well (and Victoria Island).

I never had a preconceived notion about Canada before then and I certainly don't now.

The bottom line is that it's not cool to assume.

And we're referred to as Los Angelenos.

Or pretentious assholes. Take your pic.

:D

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2009, 12:50 PM
Dane's not saying that Babb is making something up you dumb fucks, he's saying that Babb is taking the Chiefs' word for it at face value and reporting that as the fact without doing due diligence.

God, some of you fuckers are idiotic.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 12:54 PM
You don't know the answers to any of these questions either. Maybe Haley had a stick up his ass against Bowe from the beginning. Remember the depth chart thing and when he caught that touchdown the cameras caught Haley screaming at Bowe, "DONT LET ME BREAK YOU!" Yeah great motivational tactics there dude. :rolleyes:

Do you take Haley's cock out your mouth before you type this shit?

I'm not the one trying to shift the blame from the person violating the policy to the coach. You are the one doing that, and without evidence to support your argument.

Chocolate Hog
11-18-2009, 12:56 PM
Kent Babb makes Claythan look like a good journalist

smittysbar
11-18-2009, 12:58 PM
Regardless, he was asked to show up at a target weight and didn't. I don't care how much he was over, but he was over and by quite a bit. The main thing we were discussing was that it is not Haley's fault, and it isn't.

rambleonthruthefog
11-18-2009, 01:08 PM
what the **** is so important about meeting an arbitrary weight goal? if this is really the reason for bowe taking the diuretic then yes i do blame haley

you blame haley for another grown mans decision. you sir are what is wrong with society. people don't have the balls to be accountable.

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 01:12 PM
Dane's not saying that Babb is making something up you dumb ****s, he's saying that Babb is taking the Chiefs' word for it at face value and reporting that as the fact without doing due diligence.

God, some of you ****ers are idiotic.

I am curious, what is your opinion on the topic?

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 01:26 PM
you blame haley for another grown mans decision. you sir are what is wrong with society. people don't have the balls to be accountable.

You guys just don't seem to get it.

Bowe took the drug STRICTLY TO MAKE HALEY HAPPY.

The NFL could care less what weight you're playing at. HALEY set the number to instill a "my way or the highway" philosophy as the new coach and now BOWE is paying the price.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Bowe could not have met his weight from last season, where he played remarkably well under horrible conditions, even if he did come into camp "overweight".

Chocolate Hog
11-18-2009, 01:29 PM
You guys just don't seem to get it.

Bowe took the drug STRICTLY TO MAKE HALEY HAPPY.

The NFL could care less what weight you're playing at. HALEY set the number to instill a "my way or the highway" philosophy as the new coach and now BOWE is paying the price.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Bowe could not have met his weight from last season, where he played remarkably well under horrible conditions, even if he did come into camp "overweight".

Shut up cock boy

BigRock
11-18-2009, 01:29 PM
Personally, I prefer objective reporting and Babb does NOT fit that bill.

I'm not here to try to change your mind about Kent Babb. As I said, I just don't understand such skeptisim towards him from someone who routinely lets Whitlock go unchecked. I mean, there's two pages of worth of "Here's the problem I have with this" in everything Jason writes these days.

Incidentally, though, there's this odd inference here that, either now or some 8 months ago, Pioli and Haley decided to get together and concoct a bullshit story about Bowe showing up overweight to offseason workouts that's coming off a little strange. I mean, what possible reason would they have to make that up?

If they wanted to make Bowe look bad, or prove the diuretic use wasn't because of Haley's crazy weight loss goals, or any other such thing, they could easily say "Hey, we asked Glenn Dorsey's fat ass to lose a lot of weight, and we don't see him getting suspended. Fuck off, Bowe."

Brock
11-18-2009, 01:30 PM
You guys just don't seem to get it.

Bowe took the drug STRICTLY TO MAKE HALEY HAPPY.


Seems like you're throwing speculation on top of speculation.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 01:31 PM
Shut up cock boy

stay classy billaybob

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Seems like you're throwing speculation on top of speculation.

According to everything thats been reported, Bowe took the diuretic to meet Haley's weight number.

If it was for any other purpose then Bowe would be the only one to blame.

rambleonthruthefog
11-18-2009, 01:35 PM
You guys just don't seem to get it.

Bowe took the drug STRICTLY TO MAKE HALEY HAPPY.

The NFL could care less what weight you're playing at. HALEY set the number to instill a "my way or the highway" philosophy as the new coach and now BOWE is paying the price.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Bowe could not have met his weight from last season, where he played remarkably well under horrible conditions, even if he did come into camp "overweight".

none of the other guys seemed to have taken it. that was a decision they made. bowe(who is one of my favorite chiefs) made a decision to do something else. he is a grown man, and responsible for his own decisions. i can argue it no more than that. Bowe is 100% responsible for the situation he is in. hopefully he understands this and grows from it, instead of blaming others for his mistakes. IMHO, a thought process such as yours holds many people back in life, both in their personal and professional relationships.

HemiEd
11-18-2009, 01:36 PM
You guys just don't seem to get it.

Bowe took the drug STRICTLY TO MAKE HALEY HAPPY.

The NFL could care less what weight you're playing at. HALEY set the number to instill a "my way or the highway" philosophy as the new coach and now BOWE is paying the price.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Bowe could not have met his weight from last season, where he played remarkably well under horrible conditions, even if he did come into camp "overweight".

There are so many agendas in this thread. Bottom line, if the Chiefs had drafted Sanchez, many would be different.

Brock
11-18-2009, 01:41 PM
According to everything thats been reported, Bowe took the diuretic to meet Haley's weight number.

If it was for any other purpose then Bowe would be the only one to blame.

Even if that's true, it's still cheating to reach a goal, arbitrary or not, that would have been easily met on his own. It's dumb.

BigRock
11-18-2009, 01:42 PM
According to everything thats been reported, Bowe took the diuretic to meet Haley's weight number.

According to everything that's been reported, Haley wanted Bowe to lose weight.

It might change, but as of this moment, this whole notion that Haley wanted to Bowe to lose weight well past the extra 25-30 pounds he apparently gained over the offseason, and that unreasonable goal forced Bowe into taking diuretics to comply? It only exists in your mind.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 01:42 PM
Even if that's true, it's still cheating to reach a goal, arbitrary or not, that would have been easily met on his own. It's dumb.

Unless the goal was dumb to begin with.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Incidentally, though, there's this odd inference here that, either now or some 8 months ago, Pioli and Haley decided to get together and concoct a bullshit story about Bowe showing up overweight to offseason workouts that's coming off a little strange. I mean, what possible reason would they have to make that up?



:shake:

You're missing the point, entirely.

1. Babb did not state Bowe's reporting weight in Spring 2009.
2. Babb did not state Bowe's reporting weight in July 2009 (Training Camp).
3. Babb did not report why Bowe gained weight.
4. Babb did not report during Bowe's weight loss (i.e., how much per month, per week, etc.).
5. Babb did not report Haley's specified target weight.

Babb's entire article appears as if it's based on the Chiefs information, not journalistic investigation. As a matter of fact, there is a complete absence of investigative reporting in his articles pertaining to this subject (and many others). It's as if the Chiefs made a statement and Babb took it as fact, then wrote a story around it.

It's sloppy, sloppy journalism. As Hamas stated, there was no due diligence done by Babb.

As for Whitlock, he's a columnist, not a reporter. The standards are far different, although in no way, shape or form have I ever thought that Jason was "lying" to create controversy. That would be completely unethical.

Brock
11-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Unless the goal was dumb to begin with.

Whether it was dumb or not, he's paid to do it, and is well-equipped to do it without risking his career.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 01:46 PM
According to everything that's been reported, Haley wanted Bowe to lose weight.

It might change, but as of this moment, this whole notion that Haley wanted to Bowe to lose weight well past the extra 25-30 pounds he apparently gained over the offseason, and that unreasonable goal forced Bowe into taking diuretics to comply? It only exists in your mind.

I simply find it had to believe that Bowe sat on his ass all offseason packing in the donuts and came in 25-30 pounds heaver than he was last season.

OH WAIT, we're not comparing him to last season are we? We're comparing him to Haley's new magic number that will increase Bowe's production exponentially.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 01:47 PM
Whether it was dumb or not, he's paid to do it, and is well-equipped to do it without risking his career.

So if the goal was to bench 1,000 lbs, which is ridiculous, it doesn't matter. He should be able to do that naturally as well.

Brock
11-18-2009, 01:48 PM
So if the goal was to bench 1,000 lbs, which is ridiculous, it doesn't matter. He should be able to do that naturally as well.

Benching 1000 pounds is dangerous and pointless. Losing 30 pounds is neither.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 01:49 PM
Benching 1000 pounds is dangerous and pointless. Losing 30 pounds is neither.

You said if the goal is dumb it doesnt matter. Having Bowe lose weight just for the sake of losing weight is pointless as well.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 01:53 PM
You guys just don't seem to get it.

Bowe took the drug STRICTLY TO MAKE HALEY HAPPY.

The NFL could care less what weight you're playing at. HALEY set the number to instill a "my way or the highway" philosophy as the new coach and now BOWE is paying the price.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Bowe could not have met his weight from last season, where he played remarkably well under horrible conditions, even if he did come into camp "overweight".

So, to summarize, and going with the "weight loss" excuse for why Bowe was taking the stuff, while wondering how it's possible that Starcaps is out there and you're still trying to pin this crap on Haley:
<ul>
<li>Teams have weight targets for players, and it's not just the Chiefs</li>

<li>Some contracts even have specific weight clauses in them</li>

<li>Players have to make those targets or they can be fined</li>

<li>Bowe failed to make weight</li>

<li>You have no idea what that weight target was</li>

<li>Unknown target weight could have been more/less/same with regards to the previous year</li>

<li>There are ways to lose weight without resorting to banned substances</li>

<li>You have no evidence showing that the target weight was an unreasonable target</li>

<li>Despite all this, it's somehow Haley's fault that Bowe decided to take pills to make weight</li>

</ul>

Now, let's take a look at the CBA:

(a) For the 2006 League Year, the following maximum discipline schedule will be applicable:

Overweight—maximum fine of $400 per lb., which fine may be assessed no more than twice per week, with each week beginning on Monday and ending on Sunday, and with each fine at least three days apart (e.g., Monday-Thursday, Tuesday-Friday, etc.).....

(b) The amounts set forth in Section 1(a) above and Section 7 below shall be increased for the 2007 League Year, and each League Year thereafter during the term of this Agreement, at the rate of annual TR growth, up to a maximum annual growth of 10% per year.

http://nflplayers.com/user/template.aspx?fmid=181&lmid=231&pid=519&type=c

So, this stuff, including specific fine amounts for being overweight, is all laid out in the CBA, which precedes Haley becoming a head coach, but it's all about Haley being a dictator?

Brock
11-18-2009, 01:54 PM
You said if the goal is dumb it doesnt matter. Having Bowe lose weight just for the sake of losing weight is pointless as well.

You're reading a lot more into my statement than what is there. Bowe could easily lose 30 pounds, if in fact he was overweight, without any danger to himself or his career. He could not, however, bench 1000 pounds without any danger to himself or his career. It's a bad analogy. If you had said something to the effect that it's like being asked to increase his 40 time by a quarter second, it would be a better analogy.

Chief Faithful
11-18-2009, 01:54 PM
what the **** is so important about meeting an arbitrary weight goal? if this is really the reason for bowe taking the diuretic then yes i do blame haley

How do you know it was an arbitrary weight goal?

Shag
11-18-2009, 01:55 PM
You guys just don't seem to get it.

Bowe took the drug STRICTLY TO MAKE HALEY HAPPY.

The NFL could care less what weight you're playing at. HALEY set the number to instill a "my way or the highway" philosophy as the new coach and now BOWE is paying the price.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that Bowe could not have met his weight from last season, where he played remarkably well under horrible conditions, even if he did come into camp "overweight".

No, you don't get it. Nobody forced Bowe to take anything - he made that decision on his own. Haley could have demanded Bowe show up at 150lbs, and that still wouldn't make it his fault if Bowe took a banned substance to get there. Bowe is 100% responsible, and the ONLY party responsible, for anything he puts in his body. Personal accountability.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 01:58 PM
:shake:

You're missing the point, entirely.

1. Babb did not state Bowe's reporting weight in Spring 2009.
2. Babb did not state Bowe's reporting weight in July 2009 (Training Camp).
3. Babb did not report why Bowe gained weight.
4. Babb did not report during Bowe's weight loss (i.e., how much per month, per week, etc.).
5. Babb did not report Haley's specified target weight.

Babb's entire article appears as if it's based on the Chiefs information, not journalistic investigation. As a matter of fact, there is a complete absence of investigative reporting in his articles pertaining to this subject (and many others). It's as if the Chiefs made a statement and Babb took it as fact, then wrote a story around it.

It's sloppy, sloppy journalism. As Hamas stated, there was no due diligence done by Babb.

As for Whitlock, he's a columnist, not a reporter. The standards are far different, although in no way, shape or form have I ever thought that Jason was "lying" to create controversy. That would be completely unethical.

i have said the EXACT same things about whitlock and been bashed for it. and you ARE right about the standards. THATS what makes it so believable to me that MAYBE whitlock makes shit up sometimes

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 02:00 PM
You don't know the answers to any of these questions either. Maybe Haley had a stick up his ass against Bowe from the beginning. Remember the depth chart thing and when he caught that touchdown the cameras caught Haley screaming at Bowe, "DONT LET ME BREAK YOU!" Yeah great motivational tactics there dude. :rolleyes:

Do you take Haley's cock out your mouth before you type this shit?

WOW did you EVER stop to think that the depth chart issue COULD be because they all knew that he had failed a test? OR maybe they were mad he was 30 LBS over?

and did you think the "dont let me break you" was actually a positive?

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:04 PM
and did you think the "dont let me break you" was actually a positive?

it wasn't? i thought it was. are you telling me he was yelling at him NEGATIVELY after he scored a TD?

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:05 PM
No, you don't get it. Nobody forced Bowe to take anything - he made that decision on his own. Haley could have demanded Bowe show up at 150lbs, and that still wouldn't make it his fault if Bowe took a banned substance to get there. Bowe is 100% responsible, and the ONLY party responsible, for anything he puts in his body. Personal accountability.

150 lbs? Seriously?

I think I was right about the benching 1,000 lbs thing Brock.ROFL

wasi
11-18-2009, 02:06 PM
No, you don't get it. Nobody forced Bowe to take anything - he made that decision on his own. Haley could have demanded Bowe show up at 150lbs, and that still wouldn't make it his fault if Bowe took a banned substance to get there. Bowe is 100% responsible, and the ONLY party responsible, for anything he puts in his body. Personal accountability.

Dorsey showed up to TC overweight. He was man enough to work off the weight in the rehab zone and face the potential rath of Haley.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 02:07 PM
it wasn't? i thought it was. are you telling me he was yelling at him NEGATIVELY after he scored a TD?

then why in the hell are you BITCHING about it? hell you actually had a smiley roll its eyes for you. why? i thought it WAS a good motivating thing.

Shag
11-18-2009, 02:07 PM
150 lbs? Seriously?

I think I was right about the benching 1,000 lbs thing Brock.ROFL

It was exaggerated for a point, dipshit. Clearly, a point beyond your comprehension.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:08 PM
So, to summarize, and going with the "weight loss" excuse for why Bowe was taking the stuff, while wondering how it's possible that Starcaps is out there and you're still trying to pin this crap on Haley:
<ul>
<li>Teams have weight targets for players, and it's not just the Chiefs</li>

<li>Some contracts even have specific weight clauses in them</li>

<li>Players have to make those targets or they can be fined</li>

<li>Bowe failed to make weight</li>

<li>You have no idea what that weight target was</li>

<li>Unknown target weight could have been more/less/same with regards to the previous year</li>

<li>There are ways to lose weight without resorting to banned substances</li>

<li>You have no evidence showing that the target weight was an unreasonable target</li>

<li>Despite all this, it's somehow Haley's fault that Bowe decided to take pills to make weight</li>

</ul>

Now, let's take a look at the CBA:



http://nflplayers.com/user/template.aspx?fmid=181&lmid=231&pid=519&type=c

So, this stuff, including specific fine amounts for being overweight, is all laid out in the CBA, which precedes Haley becoming a head coach, but it's all about Haley being a dictator?

Did Haley set the weight goal for Bowe or did the CBA?

Nice bulletpoints by the way, you should go work for Al Davis

Shag
11-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Dorsey showed up to TC overweight. He was man enough to work off the weight in the rehab zone and face the potential rath of Haley.

Not possible! Haley's weight demands are unreasonable, and drive all his players to meth, crack, speed, and water pills! It's all Haley's fault!!!

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:10 PM
then why in the hell are you BITCHING about it? hell you actually had a smiley roll its eyes for you. why? i thought it WAS a good motivating thing.

I was it using to illustrate about what a stupid tactic it is and how obvious it was that Haley has been on Bowes ass since before the season even started.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:14 PM
It was exaggerated for a point, dipshit. Clearly, a point beyond your comprehension.

The lengths you people will go to defend Haley.

What has Haley done so far to deserve your utter devotion? Everything he's touched so far has turned to shit. All of his "motivational" tactics have backfired. The team has not shown any improvement yet we have our "new star QB", younger players, and new schemes.

The best thing he's done so far is cut LJ and start Charles, NOT because of onfield performance but for calling him a golfer.

Brock
11-18-2009, 02:14 PM
You don't have to agree with it, but good players are often made into great ones by nothing more than persistent nagging over details.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 02:16 PM
Did Haley set the weight goal for Bowe or did the CBA?

That's irrelevant, unless there's a claim that Haley's goal was unreasonable. Bowe has filed no such claim.


Nice bulletpoints by the way, you should go work for Al Davis

As stupid a comment as this is, it's still makes more sense than you blaming Haley for Bowe's violation.

wasi
11-18-2009, 02:19 PM
I was it using to illustrate about what a stupid tactic it is and how obvious it was that Haley has been on Bowes ass since before the season even started.

1. Haley wants mentally tough guys. If a coach whose never played the game is going to break a player then what does that tell you about that player when he's faced with a tougher situation on the football field similar to what Fitzgerald faced on the final Cards possession in the last super bowl.

2. I thought it was common knowledge from Haley's own mouth saying he would get the most out of Bowe and test him and everyone on the team for that matter.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:21 PM
That's irrelevant, unless there's a claim that Haley's goal was unreasonable.



I guess I'm saying it's unreasonable then because there should be no reason for Bowe to feel such urgency to appease his coach that he would feel the need to take a DIET drug. Not a PED, but a DIET drug.

penchief
11-18-2009, 02:23 PM
I guess I'm saying it's unreasonable then because there should be no reason for Bowe to feel such urgency to appease his coach that he would feel the need to take a DIET drug. Not a PED, but a DIET drug.

Why do you say he was appeasing the coach? Maybe he fucked around and didn't make his weight so he decided to take a shortcut. The lengths some of you will go to bash Haley and coddle immature players is mind-boggling.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 02:25 PM
I guess I'm saying it's unreasonable then because there should be no reason for Bowe to feel such urgency to appease his coach that he would feel the need to take a DIET drug. Not a PED, but a DIET drug.

But that is a stupid argument, since you have no idea what the weight target is. You're saying it's unreasonable because you want to blame Haley. It's nothing more than that. The rest is just bullshit where you're trying to pretend you've got something approaching a point, when you don't even know what the weights involved were. Again, Starcaps, just to name a prominent example, shows your argument to be ridiculous.

BigRock
11-18-2009, 02:27 PM
:shake:

You're missing the point, entirely.

I freely admit to this. Let me take it slow, maybe it'll help.

You feel Babb is a shitty journalist, that much I'm pretty sure of.

But here's where I go off the rails. When Babb states unequivocally that Bowe gained 30 pounds after last season ended, and specifically mentions the gain occuring over the 3 month period from January to March, do you believe he's wrong about this? Because it kinda seems like you do.

In fact, post #86 in it's entirety (where you said NOT in bold like that) basically came off like you were saying "Babb never said that, but even if he did, he's a complete idiot anyway". Which does not make it seem like you believe the details he's reporting.

And since you're saying he did no investigating on the matter and is only repeating what the team told him, that would basically seem to infer that the team is giving him info that's not true.

Is that what you're saying?

Or are you saying the team told Babb the truth, and Babb is right about Bowe's weight... and oh, PS, by the way, Babb's a shitty journalist? Because that's all well and good, just perhaps drifting a bit off-topic.

wasi
11-18-2009, 02:27 PM
The lengths you people will go to defend Haley.

What has Haley done so far to deserve your utter devotion? Everything he's touched so far has turned to shit. All of his "motivational" tactics have backfired. The team has not shown any improvement yet we have our "new star QB", younger players, and new schemes.

The best thing he's done so far is cut LJ and start Charles, NOT because of onfield performance but for calling him a golfer.

Well, I'm certainly willing to give Haley more than little over half a season before I make a decision about him one way or another.

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:28 PM
Why do you say he was appeasing the coach? Maybe he fucked around and didn't make his weight so he decided to take a shortcut. The lengths some of you will go to bash Haley and coddle immature players is mind-boggling.

Would he have taken the diet drug if Haley hadn't given him a weight goal to be at?

What would have happened if didn't have a weight goal to begin with? Would he have shown up the first game of the season looking like Jamarcus? Please. An athlete like Bowe wouldn't let that happen.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 02:29 PM
Would he have taken the diet drug if Haley hadn't given him a weight goal to be at?

What would have happened if didn't have a weight goal to begin with? Would he have shown up the first game of the season looking like Jamarcus? Please. An athlete like Bowe wouldn't let that happen.

Are the Chiefs the only team with weight goals? If so, please explain the weight clause in the CBA which preceded Haley's hiring as a head coach.

BigRock
11-18-2009, 02:29 PM
I simply find it had to believe that Bowe sat on his ass all offseason packing in the donuts and came in 25-30 pounds heaver than he was last season.

OH WAIT, we're not comparing him to last season are we?

Yes, actually, we are.

Please consult any of the text quoted from the KC Star in this thread and read, repeatedly if necessary, where it specifically states that Bowe gained 30 pounds. GAINED thirty pounds.

What does that mean? I'll elaborate. That means Bowe wasn't 25-30 pounds over some new magic weight that Haley set for him. It means HE ACTUALLY INCREASED HIS WEIGHT BY 30 POUNDS from where it had previously been the season before.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 02:32 PM
I was it using to illustrate about what a stupid tactic it is and how obvious it was that Haley has been on Bowes ass since before the season even started.

ROFL SO he scored that TD BEFORE the season started?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 02:34 PM
Yes, actually, we are.

Please consult any of the text quoted from the KC Star in this thread and read, repeatedly if necessary, where it specifically states that Bowe gained 30 pounds. GAINED thirty pounds.

What does that mean? I'll elaborate. That means Bowe wasn't 25-30 pounds over some new magic weight that Haley set for him. It means HE ACTUALLY INCREASED HIS WEIGHT BY 30 POUNDS from where it had previously been the season before.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

Again, Babb did not document ANY OF THIS. He reported on it, 9 MONTHS AFTER THE FACT.

Again, I don't buy it.

Shag
11-18-2009, 02:34 PM
The lengths you people will go to defend Haley.

What has Haley done so far to deserve your utter devotion? Everything he's touched so far has turned to shit. All of his "motivational" tactics have backfired. The team has not shown any improvement yet we have our "new star QB", younger players, and new schemes.

The best thing he's done so far is cut LJ and start Charles, NOT because of onfield performance but for calling him a golfer.

The lengths you people will go to bash Haley, and put things on him he has no responsibility for. You clearly have a dislike of Haley, and it's coloring your opinion of the situation.

I have no devotion to Haley, nor am I defending him. I hope he grows into the job, but so far, I'm unimpressed. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm also a big fan of Bowe. I hope he's a big part of this team's future. Also irrelevant.

It wouldn't matter if Tom Landry, Bill Belichick, Tom Cable, or Eric Mangini were the coach, my opinion would be exactly the same. Bowe taking a banned substance is 100% his fault and responsibility. Trying to place that blame on someone else is ridiculous...

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 02:37 PM
The full range of penalties (fines, depth-chart demotions) imposed on players who fail to hit their target weights each week isn't known. But in 2006, Pat Williams reported to camp at 337, packing about a dozen pounds more than prescribed. Childress put him on the team's Physically Unable to Perform list until he lost weight. It was a public humiliation, the PUP list as doghouse. When Williams signed a three-year, $22 million contract extension in September 2007, it reportedly contained a weight clause....Ryan Cook, the Vikings' third-year offensive tackle from New Mexico, is listed at 328 pounds, tying him as the team's third heaviest player. "It's up to each individual to make their weight. I can't really speak for those two guys," said Cook, adding that he never has blown a weigh-in. "Whatever the coach says they want you at, they want you at. They expect you to be at it. I don't have any reasons why. That's not up to me."

http://www.minnpost.com/steveaschburner/2008/12/04/5009/vikings_diet_policies_help_produce_amazing_results_a_loss_of_628_pounds

LATROBE, Pa. -- Pro Bowl nose tackle Casey Hampton was placed on the physically unable to perform list Sunday after reporting to training camp overweight and failing to complete the Pittsburgh Steelers' annual run test.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8098da53&template=without-video&confirm=true

In Chicago, defensive lineman Marcus Harrison said he hopes to begin practicing by this weekend, according to Brad Biggs of the Chicago Sun-Times. Harrison has been on the non-football injury list since reporting to training camp overweight.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/6552/evening-camp-update

CARROLLTON - Wade Phillips appears to be making good on his promise after last season to get tougher.

On Wednesday, he announced he would increase the fines for players who report to training camp overweight to the league maximum of $453 per pound.

http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/nfl/2009/06/will-wades-tough-guy-routine-m.html

Yeah, it's all about Haley :rolleyes:

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:38 PM
But that is a stupid argument, since you have no idea what the weight target is. You're saying it's unreasonable because you want to blame Haley. It's nothing more than that. The rest is just bullshit where you're trying to pretend you've got something approaching a point, when you don't even know what the weights involved were. Again, Starcaps, just to name a prominent example, shows your argument to be ridiculous.

I just don't see it that way. Putting your best players at risk by forcing them to make decisions that could jeopardize their careers and possibly fuck over the season for the team, seems to outweigh any benefit that could come from a motivational standpoint.

I keep telling you that I PERSONALLY believe the weight limit was too low simply because it shouldn't have been a problem for Bowe to get his weight down to a level that would maximize his playing ability.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 02:38 PM
What does that mean? I'll elaborate. That means Bowe wasn't 25-30 pounds over some new magic weight that Haley set for him. It means HE ACTUALLY INCREASED HIS WEIGHT BY 30 POUNDS from where it had previously been the season before.

Sorry, I call BULLSHIT.

This would have been a HUGE story if had been reported back in March/April.

I don't recall anything of the sort, certainly nothing like 30 pounds.

Where is the documentation? The photos? I mean, people were taking photos at OTA's, right? How about the beginning of training camp?

Where are all of the photos that show a 251 pound Dwayne Bowe?

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 02:41 PM
I just don't see it that way. Putting your best players at risk by forcing them to make decisions that could jeopardize their careers and possibly **** over the season for the team, seems to outweigh any benefit that could come from a motivational standpoint.

I keep telling you that I PERSONALLY believe the weight limit was too low simply because it shouldn't have been a problem for Bowe to get his weight down to a level that would maximize his playing ability.

The league uses weight targets and weight clauses. It's not just the Chiefs and Todd Haley. You can keep pretending this is about anything other than taking a cheap shot at the coach, but that's clearly all it is. You have no idea what the weight target was, so now you're spouting bullshit about your personal beliefs about what it must have been, for crying out loud.

CoMoChief
11-18-2009, 02:42 PM
funny how nothing was mentioned about this being haley's fault...

How is it Haley's fault? just wondering....

L.A. Chieffan
11-18-2009, 02:44 PM
The league uses weight targets and weight clauses. It's not just the Chiefs and Todd Haley. You can keep pretending this is about anything other than taking a cheap shot at the coach, but that's clearly all it is. You have no idea what the weight target was, so now you're spouting bullshit about your personal beliefs about what it must have been, for crying out loud.

Since nobody knows what the targets are the only thing we can do is say what we believe what happened. All we know is that he took a diet drug to get under Haley's number. Until there is new information saying exactly what he came in weighed at and what he was supposed to be under, you don't know for sure either.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 02:48 PM
Please consult any of the text quoted from the KC Star in this thread and read, repeatedly if necessary, where it specifically states that Bowe gained 30 pounds. GAINED thirty pounds.



I just went through EVERY newpaper headline from the KC Star since December 2008, using "Dwayne Bowe" as my search option.

Guess what: There wasn't even ONE mention of Bowe being 30 POUNDS OVERWEIGHT.

Don't you think that if Dwayne Bowe showed up in front of reporters for OTA's (as well as the public) that at least SOMEONE would have noticed that he weighed 251 POUNDS?!

This is fucking ludicrous that ANY of you guys believe that this is ACTUALLY true, especially based on SHODDY reporting.

Use your brains for a second, people: If Dwayne Bowe was 251 pounds, why isn't there ANY evidence, anywhere at all?

wasi
11-18-2009, 02:50 PM
Since nobody knows what the targets are the only thing we can do is say what we believe what happened. All we know is that he took a diet drug to get under Haley's number. Until there is new information saying exactly what he came in weighed at and what he was supposed to be under, you don't know for sure either.

So what makes Bowe a special case and immune to not doing it right? Someone just quoted a bunch of headlines of players getting put on PUP lists, not practicing or getting fined because they are overweight. Dorsey, Waters and a few others didn't pass the physical at TC. They worked their way back, they didn't cut corners or cheat. You just exposed the fact that Bowe is the one to blame and not mature enough to work hard at what he's getting paid a lot of money to do.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 02:51 PM
Sorry, I call BULLSHIT.

This would have been a HUGE story if had been reported back in March/April.

I don't recall anything of the sort, certainly nothing like 30 pounds.

Where is the documentation? The photos? I mean, people were taking photos at OTA's, right? How about the beginning of training camp?

Where are all of the photos that show a 251 pound Dwayne Bowe?

Dorsey returned to Kansas City in the spring, having gained nearly 30 pounds in three months. He wasn't the only player with LSU ties to report to the team's offseason conditioning program in worrisome shape. Wide receiver Dwayne Bowe, the Chiefs' top draft pick the year before they picked Dorsey, also had packed on an extra 30 pounds. Bowe plays a position that can be affected by a swing of three pounds, and he had gained 10 times that amount.

http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2009/oct/17/bc-fbn-chiefskc-_-sports-1800-words/?sports

's just another bump in the road in what has been a tough year for Bowe. When he met with Todd Haley and his coaching staff in March, he was told he was 20 to 25 pounds overweight. Haley talked with Bowe about his mouthy personality in the locker room and in front of the media.

Bowe lost weight and clammed up, but when he showed up for training camp at the end of July, he was again overweight. It was during camp that Bowe was demoted to the third team by Haley, who was unhappy with his effort and focus. Eventually, he worked his way back to the starting lineup.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/kansas-city-chiefs/teamreport

I'm not going to haggle over a specific pound number, but it's pretty clear that this issue hasn't been something that went unreported.

KCUnited
11-18-2009, 02:52 PM
I just went through EVERY newpaper headline from the KC Star since December 2008, using "Dwayne Bowe" as my search option.

Guess what: There wasn't even ONE mention of Bowe being 30 POUNDS OVERWEIGHT.

Don't you think that if Dwayne Bowe showed up in front of reporters for OTA's (as well as the public) that at least SOMEONE would have noticed that he weighed 251 POUNDS?!

This is ****ing ludicrous that ANY of you guys believe that this is ACTUALLY true, especially based on SHODDY reporting.

Use your brains for a second, people: If Dwayne Bowe was 251 pounds, why isn't there ANY evidence, anywhere at all?

From Haley's mouth. Last sentence.

http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/bowe%E2%80%99s-working-on-drops.html#more-9089

Although unhappy with the fact that Bowe showed up out of shape and overweight to start the off-season program, Haley is happy with the wide receiver’s work.

“I would say that Dwayne has been very receptive to what we are trying to do,” said Haley. “He’s continually tried to get around me and talk to me about what’s expected. He’s talked to coach (Dedric) Ward, he’s trying to do the right things.

“Dwayne is one of those guys that let himself go during the off-season, so it’s been a long road back. That’s a lot of work when you are trying to lose 20, 25 pounds.”

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 02:53 PM
Since nobody knows what the targets are the only thing we can do is say what we believe what happened. All we know is that he took a diet drug to get under Haley's number. Until there is new information saying exactly what he came in weighed at and what he was supposed to be under, you don't know for sure either.

I haven't claimed to know the number. I haven't claimed it was reasonable. I haven't claimed it was unreasonable. You're the one who's been making up the argument.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 02:55 PM
From Haley's mouth. Last sentence.

http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/bowe%E2%80%99s-working-on-drops.html#more-9089

Although unhappy with the fact that Bowe showed up out of shape and overweight to start the off-season program, Haley is happy with the wide receiver’s work.

“I would say that Dwayne has been very receptive to what we are trying to do,” said Haley. “He’s continually tried to get around me and talk to me about what’s expected. He’s talked to coach (Dedric) Ward, he’s trying to do the right things.

“Dwayne is one of those guys that let himself go during the off-season, so it’s been a long road back. That’s a lot of work when you are trying to lose 20, 25 pounds.”

20 pounds? That's one thing. 30 pounds is something else entirely.

Bowe's listed weight is 221 pounds. That's after the rigors of training camp. During the season, I guarantee you that he's playing closer to 230 pounds. So if he arrived at OTA's or workouts at 240, which is a weight gain of around 10 pounds, I can buy that completely.

But 30 pounds? 251 pounds or more? No way.

Chiefnj2
11-18-2009, 02:57 PM
Short video of Dwayne Bowe the day before camp started 2009. He doesn't look particularly overweight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIggD0rtA8s

KCUnited
11-18-2009, 02:58 PM
20 pounds? That's one thing. 30 pounds is something else entirely.

Bowe's listed weight is 221 pounds. That's after the rigors of training camp. During the season, I guarantee you that he's playing closer to 230 pounds. So if he arrived at OTA's or workouts at 240, which is a weight gain of around 10 pounds, I can buy that completely.

But 30 pounds? 251 pounds or more? No way.
By that assessment it would be ridiculous to take a diuretic for weight loss purposes.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:02 PM
By that assessment it would be ridiculous to take a diuretic for weight loss purposes.

Dude, you and others are missing the Big Point:

Dwayne Bowe didn't begin taking a diuretic in March or April or May and probably even June: He most likely took it in July to make his mandated weight.

Just like boxers and wrestlers do to make weight.

Do you really think that 147 pound fighters actually weigh that much when they get in the ring? They starve themselves and dehydrate themselves before weigh-in. You'll often see 10 pound swings in weight between weigh-in and fight day.

Bowe just got caught.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:04 PM
I just don't see it that way. Putting your best players at risk by forcing them to make decisions that could jeopardize their careers and possibly fuck over the season for the team, seems to outweigh any benefit that could come from a motivational standpoint.

I keep telling you that I PERSONALLY believe the weight limit was too low simply because it shouldn't have been a problem for Bowe to get his weight down to a level that would maximize his playing ability.

maybe bowe's work ethic is what should be questioned here then. you are right. it shouldnt have been too hard for bowe to get down to 215-220 lbs.(what he's playing at0 so WHY DID HE FEEL HE NEEDED TO USE THE ILLEGAL SUBSTANCE?

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:05 PM
How is it Haley's fault? just wondering....

sarcasm buddy.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:08 PM
20 pounds? That's one thing. 30 pounds is something else entirely.

Bowe's listed weight is 221 pounds. That's after the rigors of training camp. During the season, I guarantee you that he's playing closer to 230 pounds. So if he arrived at OTA's or workouts at 240, which is a weight gain of around 10 pounds, I can buy that completely.

But 30 pounds? 251 pounds or more? No way.

dane, it actually said 20-25 lbs, thats not too far from 30 in all honesty

BigRock
11-18-2009, 03:08 PM
Sorry, I call BULLSHIT.

So I'm right, you don't believe Babb's story. And since he did NO INVESTIGATING WHATSOEVER~! and repeated it word for word from the team, they must be feeding him bullshit. But when I question what sense that would possibly make, I'm missing the point.

And Babb's a piece of shit but LOOK WHITLOCK'S BASHING PIOLI NOM NOM NOM.

This has been quite a ride.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:10 PM
Dude, you and others are missing the Big Point:

Dwayne Bowe didn't begin taking a diuretic in March or April or May and probably even June: He most likely took it in July to make his mandated weight.

Just like boxers and wrestlers do to make weight.

Do you really think that 147 pound fighters actually weigh that much when they get in the ring? They starve themselves and dehydrate themselves before weigh-in. You'll often see 10 pound swings in weight between weigh-in and fight day.

Bowe just got caught.


hell the swings could be MUCH more than that, again maybe BOWE should have worked on his WEIGHT BEFORE SHOWING UP, you know on his own. he surely KNEW what he was supposed to be at. Are you and some others implying that he couldnt figure out how much he had to lose? THAT IMO would speak terribly of him:D

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:12 PM
dane, it actually said 20-25 lbs, thats not too far from 30 in all honesty

Which makes this thing all the more ambiguous.

Which is another reason why I don't buy it for a second, in addition to stories in the spring, pictures in the spring, etc.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:12 PM
So I'm right, you don't believe Babb's story. And since he did NO INVESTIGATING WHATSOEVER~! and repeated it word for word from the team, they must be feeding him bullshit. But when I question what sense that would possibly make, I'm missing the point.

And Babb's a piece of shit but LOOK WHITLOCK'S BASHING PIOLI NOM NOM NOM.

This has been quite a ride.


i find it pretty amusing that the same guys who have BASHED me about whitlock are here acting like babb is wrong. hell OTWP bashed me for not buying a SUBJECTIVE stat yesterday then doubted this.:shake:

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:14 PM
Which makes this thing all the more ambiguous.

Which is another reason why I don't buy it for a second, in addition to stories in the spring, pictures in the spring, etc.

dane, if he didnt have that much to lose then why did he cheat? why didnt he start losing earlier?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:14 PM
So I'm right, you don't believe Babb's story. And since he did NO INVESTIGATING WHATSOEVER~! and repeated it word for word from the team, they must be feeding him bullshit. But when I question what sense that would possibly make, I'm missing the point.

And Babb's a piece of shit but LOOK WHITLOCK'S BASHING PIOLI NOM NOM NOM.

This has been quite a ride.

Where are pictures? Where is the HUGE STORY from March?

Are you telling me that Dwayne Bowe showed up in March in front of fans and reporters weighing in at 251 pounds, yet NO ONE, NOT ONE NEWS OUTLET, found it even remotely newsworthy?

Puhleese.

If THAT had been reported in March, this place would have fucking gone NUTS.

Shut down the server NUTS.

KCUnited
11-18-2009, 03:14 PM
Dude, you and others are missing the Big Point:

Dwayne Bowe didn't begin taking a diuretic in March or April or May and probably even June: He most likely took it in July to make his mandated weight.

Just like boxers and wrestlers do to make weight.

Do you really think that 147 pound fighters actually weigh that much when they get in the ring? They starve themselves and dehydrate themselves before weigh-in. You'll often see 10 pound swings in weight between weigh-in and fight day.

Bowe just got caught.
Fighters cut weight for one weigh in. Football players are weighed continuously to maintain their target weight.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:15 PM
Where are pictures? Where is the HUGE STORY from March?

Are you telling me that Dwayne Bowe showed up in March in front of fans and reporters weighing in at 251 pounds, yet NO ONE, NOT ONE NEWS OUTLET, found it even remotely newsworthy?

Puhleese.

If THAT had been reported in March, this place would have fucking gone NUTS.

Shut down the server NUTS.

dane that gretz article was from june 8th. you know the one that said he had 20-25 lbs to lose.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:16 PM
i find it pretty amusing that the same guys who have BASHED me about whitlock are here acting like babb is wrong. hell OTWP bashed me for not buying a SUBJECTIVE stat yesterday then doubted this.:shake:

Jason, Whitlock writes opinions.

Babb writes facts.

It's a VERY different standard to be held to but quite honestly, I don't think there's a CHANCE in hell that Whitlock has LIED about ANYTHING.

His credibility would be SHOT from that point forward. WHY would he put his career in jeopardy over a lie?

Answer: He wouldn't.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:17 PM
Fighters cut weight for one weigh in. Football players are weighed continuously to maintain their target weight.

Are you telling us that every single football player on every single roster across the NFL has a strictly mandated weight they must adhere to in order to play?

Are you smoking crack?

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:18 PM
Jason, Whitlock writes opinions.

Babb writes facts.

It's a VERY different standard to be held to but quite honestly, I don't think there's a CHANCE in hell that Whitlock has LIED about ANYTHING.

His credibility would be SHOT from that point forward. WHY would he put his career in jeopardy over a lie?

Answer: He wouldn't.

ROFL dane how would ANYONE PROVE that he's lying? unnamed sources NEVER tell:D

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:19 PM
Are you telling us that every single football player on every single roster across the NFL has a strictly mandated weight they must adhere to in order to play?

Are you smoking crack?

i would bet that there are quite a few, hell last year duece, the williams twins, 2 NO d linemen, and how many others got popped for the same thing no?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:19 PM
dane that gretz article was from june 8th. you know the one that said he had 20-25 lbs to lose.

And this is from today, the thread starter's article:

From the time he showed up for the off-season program some 25 pounds overweight, Haley has been all over Bowe.

Some 25 pounds.

What was the pre-determined weight that was prescribed for Bowe?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:21 PM
ROFL dane how would ANYONE PROVE that he's lying? unnamed sources NEVER tell:D

Jason, lying (which you accuse Whitock of doing repeated) is very different from not being thorough, which I am accusing Babb of doing.

Babb didn't do any due diligence. All of this "25, 30" pounds or whatever is hindsight.

Where are the stories from March? April? June? Where are the pictures of 251 pound Dwayne Bowe?

Where are the facts?

KCUnited
11-18-2009, 03:22 PM
Are you telling us that every single football player on every single roster across the NFL has a strictly mandated weight they must adhere to in order to play?

Are you smoking crack?
No I'm not saying that. I wouldn't be surprised if Branden Albert is stepping on a scale on a semi regular basis as I'm sure other players are that have been deemed as players with a weight control issue.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:22 PM
i would bet that there are quite a few, hell last year duece, the williams twins, 2 NO d linemen, and how many others got popped for the same thing no?

First off, I said "every". Secondly, all of those guys have a proclivity to being overweight.

I don't think that any coach, other than Todd Haley, has ever worried about Dwayne Bowe's weight.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:25 PM
No I'm not saying that. I wouldn't be surprised if Branden Albert is stepping on a scale on a semi regular basis as I'm sure other players are that have been deemed as players with a weight control issue.

I'll go a step further: The current Chiefs brass doesn't like Brandon Albert and would have never drafted him. But because they're stuck with him, they forced him to lose 30 pounds quickly. And because he lost 30 pounds quickly, he's had to deal with stamina, endurance, strength and blood issues. And because of those issues, he is far less effective than he was last year.

I doubt you'd find a pundit in the entire league that wasn't impressed with Brandon Albert last year.

This year, he can't stay on the field.

Was that a wise move? All the weight loss?

No.

Chiefnj2
11-18-2009, 03:25 PM
Jason, lying (which you accuse Whitock of doing repeated) is very different from not being thorough, which I am accusing Babb of doing.

Babb didn't do any due diligence. All of this "25, 30" pounds or whatever is hindsight.

Where are the stories from March? April? June? Where are the pictures of 251 pound Dwayne Bowe?

Where are the facts?

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2009/06/14/additions_toughen_division/?page=4

June 14, 2009.

Just Passin' By
11-18-2009, 03:28 PM
Where are pictures? Where is the HUGE STORY from March?

Are you telling me that Dwayne Bowe showed up in March in front of fans and reporters weighing in at 251 pounds, yet NO ONE, NOT ONE NEWS OUTLET, found it even remotely newsworthy?

Puhleese.

If THAT had been reported in March, this place would have ****ing gone NUTS.

Shut down the server NUTS.

Umm......


06-08-2009, 07:31 PM

While I agree that may be a part of the equation, self-discipline is the mark of a champion.

I seriously doubt that you'll find Terrel Owens, Larry Fitzgerald, Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, et al 30 pounds overweight heading into OTA's and mini-camp.

While Herm's people may be somewhat to blame, the blame ultimately lies with Bowe himself.


http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5825881&postcount=9

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:28 PM
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2009/06/14/additions_toughen_division/?page=4

June 14, 2009.

Again, no listing of his weight.

Only told to lose 20-25 pounds.

What was that weight? 240? 235?

No one knows because it's never been reported.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:41 PM
Jason, lying (which you accuse Whitock of doing repeated) is very different from not being thorough, which I am accusing Babb of doing.

Babb didn't do any due diligence. All of this "25, 30" pounds or whatever is hindsight.

Where are the stories from March? April? June? Where are the pictures of 251 pound Dwayne Bowe?

Where are the facts?

dane, there is an article thats been linked from bob gretz that he wrote ON JUNE 8th. would you say that babb is held to HIGHER standards than whitlock.


and yeah i think whitlock makes shit up. whatever he needs to do to make his agenda work. like you said he writes an OPINION piece. we all know about opinions:D

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:42 PM
First off, I said "every". Secondly, all of those guys have a proclivity to being overweight.

I don't think that any coach, other than Todd Haley, has ever worried about Dwayne Bowe's weight.

dane i was just throwing out some examples. most coaches have weights that they think players should play at

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:44 PM
dane, there is an article thats been linked from bob gretz that he wrote ON JUNE 8th. would you say that babb is held to HIGHER standards than whitlock.


and yeah i think whitlock makes shit up. whatever he needs to do to make his agenda work. like you said he writes an OPINION piece. we all know about opinions:D

Jason, that article states the same thing: Dwayne Bowe showed up at spring workouts overweight.

By June, that was no longer an issue.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Again, no listing of his weight.

Only told to lose 20-25 pounds.

What was that weight? 240? 235?

No one knows because it's never been reported.

common sense should tell you that if he needed to lose 20-25 or even 30 pounds and he's listed at 220 and not riding the bike like dorsey was his prescribed weight is PRETTY CLOSE TO 220 right?

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:45 PM
Jason, that article states the same thing: Dwayne Bowe showed up at spring workouts overweight.

By June, that was no longer an issue.

how do WE know it wasnt an issue in june? when do they report to TC?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:46 PM
dane i was just throwing out some examples. most coaches have weights that they think players should play at

I know but those are mostly reserved for lineman and people with weight-related issues.

I don't think Bowe falls under that category. I think Haley wanted him at a specific weight because Haley felt it would help to make him a better player.

So far this season, that has not been the case.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:47 PM
how do WE know it wasnt an issue in june? when do they report to TC?

Well, if you believe the article that Chiefsnj shared, it stated he it had been remedied.

The guys reported on like July 27th. Was Bowe held out of practice for failing the conditioning test?

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:48 PM
I know but those are mostly reserved for lineman and people with weight-related issues.

I don't think Bowe falls under that category. I think Haley wanted him at a specific weight because Haley felt it would help to make him a better player.

So far this season, that has not been the case.

well again dane, if the weight that haley was ok with is 220 and he came in 20-25-30 pounds over THAT then he would be between 240-250. do you think he could/would be effective at that weight?

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2009, 03:49 PM
Well, if you believe the article that Chiefsnj shared, it stated he it had been remedied.

The guys reported on like July 27th. Was Bowe held out of practice for failing the conditioning test?


do we even know?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2009, 03:52 PM
do we even know?

Dorsey was because it was reported.

The actual answer to the question was no.

:D