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View Full Version : Misc So I switched from Dem to Ind today


RJ
11-19-2009, 05:23 PM
I registered as a democrat almost 30 years ago and kept it that way ever since. I probably made that decision the way most people decide their religion - I went with what I grew up on. I had thought about switching before, but when I lived in Baltimore I wanted to be able to vote in the dem primaries, since they were basically the election. But after watching what Congress is doing here of late, I just can't stand the idea of having any affiliation with either party.

None of them give a shit about our country. All they care about is their own ideologies and advancing their own causes. The dems including abortion funding in the health care bill was the last straw. They couldn't just leave that out, even though they knew it would piss off millions of people. And why? No one would have expected abortion funding to be in there....no one, that is, except a few fringe groups way out on the edge of left field.

I am tired of the extreme right and extreme left having so much influence on decisions our government makes. Maybe as more and more people switch to independent the pols will look more to the middle ground. Hell, maybe I'll just stop voting altogether except for the local elections.

And that's all I got to say about that.

Jenson71
11-19-2009, 05:25 PM
Good choice. You can always sign up Dem again (or Rep, anyway) if you want to promote someone in a primary. Sometimes even same day as voting, at the polling place.

jjjayb
11-19-2009, 05:27 PM
Maybe if more people do this and get involved we might start getting real people in office instead of career politicians.

HonestChieffan
11-19-2009, 05:30 PM
Maybe if more people do this and get involved we might start getting real people in office instead of career politicians.

Better yet, go vote.

jjjayb
11-19-2009, 05:38 PM
Better yet, go vote.

At the local level. Not just presidential elections. Even though it's appalling enough how few vote even in national elections.

I love this quite by Bill Vaughn: (yes I first saw this quote in Modern Warfare 2)

A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 05:53 PM
Yeah, I've never actually registered as a Dem. If I had, I'd have dropped them as well by now.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-19-2009, 05:54 PM
:clap: Fuck em' both. They're on the same team. And it ain't ours.

RJ
11-19-2009, 05:58 PM
:clap: **** em' both. They're on the same team. And it ain't ours.


That's the thing. All those fucks have way more in common with each other than they ever will with us.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-19-2009, 06:04 PM
That's the thing. All those fucks have way more in common with each other than they ever will with us.

Absolutely. Corporate America is lining their pockets and telling them what to do. Wait, LOL, that's something they DO have in common with us.

RNR
11-19-2009, 06:12 PM
Welcome to the standing in the middle with arms extended giving both sides the finger party!

BucEyedPea
11-19-2009, 06:14 PM
:clap: **** em' both. They're on the same team. And it ain't ours.

:thumb:

sportsman1
11-19-2009, 06:16 PM
I agree F*** both parties... but I don't like embracing moderateness either. A person should know where they stand on things. There is no middle ground on right, and wrong. I am pretty far right, but I know I will in no way vote for a John McCain again.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-19-2009, 06:22 PM
I agree F*** both parties... but I don't like embracing moderateness either. A person should know where they stand on things. There is no middle ground on right, and wrong. I am pretty far right, but I know I will in no way vote for a John McCain again.

Both parties know that if they can get us fighting amongst ourselves on emotionally, and religiously based issues they can do what they want with all the money. And since they have all the money, and money equals power, we go from power of the people to power of the corporate interests. It's a helluva racket. I'd love to buy an island and start my own government.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 06:31 PM
I am tired of the extreme right and extreme left having so much influence on decisions our government makes. Maybe as more and more people switch to independent the pols will look more to the middle ground. Hell, maybe I'll just stop voting altogether except for the local elections.

And that's all I got to say about that.

You had me up to this point...there are many things I think we could find middle ground on, but I would posit to think that far more we would disagree on with respect to the government's role in this society.

We have gone way, way, way, way beyond the original intent of this republican democracy that for some to begin to correct that would seem not just 'extreme' right, but damn near heartless. But, we've spent all the money we have and all the money my generation had and all the money my kids generation will earn and all the money their kids generation will earn and most likely all the money their children will earn.

For what? A social safety net that doesnt work. We could fight 100 Iraq and Afghanistans for what we have spent over the years on fighting poverty.

We all agree that this federal government has overstepped its bounds and has begun to encroach into everything and now is owning what used to be private businesses. This is not the right way to go, and I'd like to think most of us agree with that.

The only way to fix this is to begin shuttering some of this stuff...yeah, it's going to hurt, but there is no F'ing way spending even more money on more government is going to work. Sadly, Im sure some will disagree.

RJ
11-19-2009, 06:43 PM
You had me up to this point...there are many things I think we could find middle ground on, but I would posit to think that far more we would disagree on with respect to the government's role in this society.

We have gone way, way, way, way beyond the original intent of this republican democracy that for some to begin to correct that would seem not just 'extreme' right, but damn near heartless. But, we've spent all the money we have and all the money my generation had and all the money my kids generation will earn and all the money their kids generation will earn and most likely all the money their children will earn.

For what? A social safety net that doesnt work. We could fight 100 Iraq and Afghanistans for what we have spent over the years on fighting poverty.

We all agree that this federal government has overstepped its bounds and has begun to encroach into everything and now is owning what used to be private businesses. This is not the right way to go, and I'd like to think most of us agree with that.

The only way to fix this is to begin shuttering some of this stuff...yeah, it's going to hurt, but there is no F'ing way spending even more money on more government is going to work. Sadly, Im sure some will disagree.




I don't believe much of what you posted is extreme. In fact, I think the middle would generally agree with you. Neither party has proven themselves to be in any way fiscally responsible, they just blow the money on different things.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 06:57 PM
I don't believe much of what you posted is extreme. In fact, I think the middle would generally agree with you. Neither party has proven themselves to be in any way fiscally responsible, they just blow the money on different things.

Maybe I have an aversion to the word 'middle'...and I dont think it's extreme to say that we've got to rein in this monster. I think we have to do drastic things if we wish to remain a democratic republic.

RJ
11-19-2009, 07:17 PM
Maybe I have an aversion to the word 'middle'...and I dont think it's extreme to say that we've got to rein in this monster. I think we have to do drastic things if we wish to remain a democratic republic.



I guess when I say middle, I am meaning something like "the majority of rational Americans".

And maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe a lot of perfectly reasonable people are being painted as extreme.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 07:23 PM
I guess when I say middle, I am meaning something like "the majority of rational Americans".

And maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe a lot of perfectly reasonable people are being painted as extreme.

Maybe...another possibility is rational Americans are no longer a majority.

Jenson71
11-19-2009, 07:26 PM
Maybe...another possibility is rational Americans are no longer a majority.

Nonsense. The overwhelming majority of Americans are good, hard-working, morally upstanding, caring folk. But they are being led astray by a class that dominates American business and politics and media and has no care for them except their use for their own gain, whether it be votes or dollars.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 07:29 PM
Nonsense. The overwhelming majority of Americans are good, hard-working, morally upstanding, caring folk. But they are being led astray by a class that dominates American business and politics and media and has no care for them except their use for their own gain, whether it be votes or dollars.

In your multi adjective description, you left out the one word I used, which was rational. Rational people realize that this class you refer to, and one that I acknowledge paint anyone that challenges the status quo -- government is the only solution to our problems -- is painted as a mean spiritied, greedy, racist or nazi.

take your pick

Jenson71
11-19-2009, 07:33 PM
In your multi adjective description, you left out the one word I used, which was rational. Rational people realize that this class you refer to, and one that I acknowledge paint anyone that challenges the status quo -- government is the only solution to our problems -- is painted as a mean spiritied, greedy, racist or nazi.

take your pick

Yeah, you're right, what I said was completely irrelevant to what you said.

Still, I'm glad I let the naysayers know (the things I said).

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 07:40 PM
Yeah, you're right, what I said was completely irrelevant to what you said.

Still, I'm glad I let the naysayers know (the things I said).

You're correct, it was irrelevant, because I was agreeing with you in the subsequent post. You're apparently naysaying...for whatever reason, Im not sure. Unless you want to take the stand as irrational. I appreciate the second non sequitur response, however.

I do feel like a lot of hard working, well meaning folks are led astray by the political class. The political, media, pop culture class is overwhelmingly of the same mind set...that the only solution to every problem is a federal goverment solution. It's time to go the other way while we still can.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 07:40 PM
Maybe I have an aversion to the word 'middle'...and I dont think it's extreme to say that we've got to rein in this monster. I think we have to do drastic things if we wish to remain a democratic republic.

This is a sincere question and not intended to be snarky or anything... what's the deal with the uptick in people talking about us as a republic and/or democratic republic. I know that TJ and BEP and such will make hay out of this and say my question is symptomatic of how far astray we've gone from the original founders and how horrible our education system is, etc.. etc... but I've been noticing this specific phrase entering into debates more and more frequently and with a, seemingly, new emphasis and meaning attached to it. Is this something that Glen Beck or someone has really been espousing or what's the story?

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 07:42 PM
This is a sincere question and not intended to be snarky or anything... what's the deal with the uptick in people talking about us as a republic and/or democratic republic. I know that TJ and BEP and such will make hay out of this and say my question is symptomatic of how far astray we've gone from the original founders and how horrible our education system is, etc.. etc... but I've been noticing this specific phrase entering into debates more and more frequently and with a, seemingly, new emphasis and meaning attached to it. Is this something that Glen Beck or someone has really been espousing or what's the story?

Fair enough...Ive always understood the United States to be a democratic republic, a combination of both pure democracy and a republican form of government.

I think I got it from Madison before Beck, but yeah, Beck's pretty big into it.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 07:45 PM
Fair enough...Ive always understood the United States to be a democratic republic, a combination of both pure democracy and a republican form of government.

I think I got it from Madison before Beck, but yeah, Beck's pretty big into it.

Well, your example wasn't a good example as it was actually fairly innocuous. I've seen some people (TJ, I believe) go so far as to correct people when they way we live in a democracy with lines like "You're so misguided, that you actually think the founders intended us to live in a democracy. We live in a republic. It shows just how far we've moved from the founders to put all of this emphasis on democracy over republicanism."

Democratic republic is something I understand and have heard, but there's like this new devaluation of the idea of democracy and a new emphasis on the idea of republic as of late.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 07:48 PM
Well, your example wasn't a good example as it was actually fairly innocuous. I've seen some people (TJ, I believe) go so far as to correct people when they way we live in a democracy with lines like "You're so misguided, that you actually think the founders intended us to live in a democracy. We live in a republic."

Democratic republic is something I understand and have heard, but there's like this new devaluation of the idea of democracy and a new emphasis on the idea of republic as of late.

Im really not into picking nits over that...I think the founders intended it to be a mix of both forms -- things done in moderation -- which I believe is the overwhelming theme of this thread.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 07:50 PM
Im really not into picking nits over that...I think the founders intended it to be a mix of both forms -- things done in moderation -- which I believe is the overwhelming theme of this thread.

Yeah. I really have no real stake in it one way or the other, as I'm not that interested in what the founders intended or didn't intend. I have a hard time really putting a lot of stake into something people who really couldn't figure out indoor plumbing have to say about our lives today... but anyway... I just like to observe arguments more than anything and figure out where the material is coming from. When there's a trend of arguments surfacing, there's usually a common source (once again, not saying that you're really making these arguments, just your mention of republic sparked me to finally ask the question because I figured I could get a straightforward honest answer from you without having to wrangle and argue to get one out of TJ or BEP), and I was curious as to what that source might be.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 07:54 PM
...as I'm not that interested in what the founders intended or didn't intend. I have a hard time really putting a lot of stake into something people who really couldn't figure out indoor plumbing have to say about our lives today... but anyway...

Im sorry, but I think the founders intent is most important to preserving our system of government.

Forgive me for taking you at your word as sincere.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 07:58 PM
Im sorry, but I think the founders intent is most important to preserving our system of government.

Forgive me for taking you at your word as sincere.

I'm completely sincere in my curiosity about the valuation of Republic over Democracy. I'm also sincere when I say that I'm not interested in getting into some sort of pissing match over Constitutional Scholarship because it's not high on my list of interests or values. I completely understand that other people here love it, cherish it, and hold it sacred. I probably shouldn't have been so flippant, but I was just trying to illustrate that I'm not interested in arguing over what the founders did or did not intend, as so many people do in this forum.

RNR
11-19-2009, 08:46 PM
Im sorry, but I think the founders intent is most important to preserving our system of government.

Forgive me for taking you at your word as sincere.

Indoor pumbing weighs more that their intent for our government LMAO

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 08:49 PM
Indoor pumbing weighs more that their intent for our government LMAO

I dont get it...

NewChief
11-19-2009, 08:54 PM
I dont get it...

My point was that I don't think that the founder's could have anticipated or even grasped the world in which we live. That doesn't mean their words and intent have no weight, but it does mean that I'm not going to spend hours meditating on "Gee, what did this guy mean by this" when we live in a world that is so vastly different from theirs. I suppose that some people see them as inspired by God, so their truths and words are eternal and divinely inspired and should stay objectively the same throughout the ages... I just have a different perception of context, history, and meaning than that. Sorry.

RNR
11-19-2009, 09:00 PM
I dont get it...

I was giving Phin a little shit about his statement about the founding fathers knowing nothing because they did not have indoor plumbing :)

NewChief
11-19-2009, 09:02 PM
I was giving Phin a little shit about his statement about the founding fathers knowing nothing because they did not have indoor plumbing :)

Oh, I think he was saying that he didn't get why I'm such a moron as to not value the FF.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 09:03 PM
My point was that I don't think that the founder's could have anticipated or even grasped the world in which we live. That doesn't mean their words and intent have no weight, but it does mean that I'm not going to spend hours meditating on "Gee, what did this guy mean by this" when we live in a world that is so vastly different from theirs. I suppose that some people see them as inspired by God, so their truths and words are eternal and divinely inspired and should stay objectively the same throughout the ages... I just have a different perception of context, history, and meaning than that. Sorry.

Thanks, but I got it the first time when you used the analogy.

I havent yet bought into the 'inspired by God' bit, although given our other options, it's probably the closest thing to Him.

That said, I dont think it takes hours to understand, and that's the beauty of the words, regardless of the world we live in the principles they wanted to convey through their intent is the same then as it was today. It's the bastardization that has caused all the problems we have...they knew then as I do today that governments eventually have a tendency to want to dominate over the individual. Their best attempt was what they put together and even created a system where the founding document could be amended as times changed...problem is we dont use that system, we use judicial fiat. Something the founders never intended.

You see, when we get away from the basic intent of the founding principles is when we get into trouble. We're there.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 09:07 PM
Thanks, but I got it the first time when you used the analogy.

I havent yet bought into the 'inspired by God' bit, although given our other options, it's probably the closest thing to Him.

That said, I dont think it takes hours to understand, and that's the beauty of the words, regardless of the world we live in the principles they wanted to convey through their intent is the same then as it was today. It's the bastardization that has caused all the problems we have...they knew then as I do today that governments eventually have a tendency to want to dominate over the individual. Their best attempt was what they put together and even created a system where the founding document could be amended as times changed...problem is we dont use that system, we use judicial fiat. Something the founders never intended.

You see, when we get away from the basic intent of the founding principles is when we get into trouble. We're there.

I can buy into that to an extent. My problem is that, at heart, this whole attack seems so partisan and politically motivated. Where was Glen Beck when Bush was running roughshod over the Constitution and pissing on the FF? So, all of these partisans are suddenly coming out of the woodwork professing this universal truth that's conveniently suddenly cropped up now that a Democrat is in office. If the truth was truly universal, then where were they the last 8 years, because it should transcend party lines. I realize that the libertarians like BEP and TJ were right there on the Bush criticism, but they seem to be the exception. Most of these new found Beck-inspired defenders of the Constitution were strangely silent during the last administration.

If the "revolution" is truly a revolution, then hell I might get on board and look into it. If the "revolution" is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to try to repackage Republicans and make them appear to be Change when we'll just end up with the same BS status quo shit.... then count me out.

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 09:20 PM
I can buy into that to an extent. My problem is that, at heart, this whole attack seems so partisan and politically motivated. Where was Glen Beck when Bush was running roughshod over the Constitution and pissing on the FF? So, all of these partisans are suddenly coming out of the woodwork professing this universal truth that's conveniently suddenly cropped up now that a Democrat is in office. If the truth was truly universal, then where were they the last 8 years, because it should transcend party lines. I realize that the libertarians like BEP and TJ were right there on the Bush criticism, but they seem to be the exception. Most of these new found Beck-inspired defenders of the Constitution were strangely silent during the last administration.

If the "revolution" is truly a revolution, then hell I might get on board and look into it. If the "revolution" is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to try to repackage Republicans and make them appear to be Change when we'll just end up with the same BS status quo shit.... then count me out.

I dont blame you for that feeling that it's politically motivated. Im not going to speak for Beck because Im not an every day listener although he claims that he was calling for Bush's impeachment -- for what reason I dont know.

I can tell you that for me, it's about pulling back...the budget must get smaller and programs shuttered...that will involve sacrifice, actual sacrifice. Im willing to suck it up for our future generations. It's either that or tyranny.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 09:24 PM
I dont blame you for that feeling that it's politically motivated. Im not going to speak for Beck because Im not an every day listener although he claims that he was calling for Bush's impeachment -- for what reason I dont know.

I can tell you that for me, it's about pulling back...the budget must get smaller and programs shuttered...that will involve sacrifice, actual sacrifice. Im willing to suck it up for our future generations. It's either that or tyranny.

Personal question here: was your virtual disappearance from DC for a while due to the fact that you were fed up with Bush and didn't want to feel obligated to defend him any longer? Feel free to dissemble, refuse to answer, or whatever. I've actually been dying to ask Russ the same question (though I know that his was also due to personal issues).

KCTitus
11-19-2009, 09:36 PM
Personal question here: was your virtual disappearance from DC for a while due to the fact that you were fed up with Bush and didn't want to feel obligated to defend him any longer?

No, that's pretty accurate. I had reached a point that I could no longer defend his or the congress actions.

I didnt feel a mea culpa was in order, I just left.

NewChief
11-19-2009, 09:38 PM
No, that's pretty accurate. I had reached a point that I could no longer defend his or the congress actions.

I didnt feel a mea culpa was in order, I just left.

Cool. I respect that (and am quickly coming to understand the feeling all too well).

Baby Lee
11-20-2009, 07:28 AM
I can buy into that to an extent. My problem is that, at heart, this whole attack seems so partisan and politically motivated. Where was Glen Beck when Bush was running roughshod over the Constitution and pissing on the FF? So, all of these partisans are suddenly coming out of the woodwork professing this universal truth that's conveniently suddenly cropped up now that a Democrat is in office. If the truth was truly universal, then where were they the last 8 years, because it should transcend party lines. I realize that the libertarians like BEP and TJ were right there on the Bush criticism, but they seem to be the exception. Most of these new found Beck-inspired defenders of the Constitution were strangely silent during the last administration.

If the "revolution" is truly a revolution, then hell I might get on board and look into it. If the "revolution" is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to try to repackage Republicans and make them appear to be Change when we'll just end up with the same BS status quo shit.... then count me out.

We've long had a a rift between the people who want the government to care for our every need and the people who want the government to get out of our way and leave us alone.
And the longer we staved off the pain of overspending, the bigger the group of people who wanted entitlements grew. And the harder it was for the 'fiscal conservative' to have any relevance on the national stage. So they started relenting in the guise of compassion.
And those people who 'conveniently popped up now' I'd say mostly always had the reservations they've piped up with lately, but they were largely silent because, to use a turn of phrase, a reluctant thief may be a thief but he's a better alternative to an enthusiastic thief.
Didn't help that Obama satisfied every fear about new spending, new programs, new intrusion, if not in results certainly in aspirations, from jump street.

tiptap
11-20-2009, 08:33 AM
We've long had a a rift between the people who want the government to care for our every need and the people who want the government to get out of our way and leave us alone.
And the longer we staved off the pain of overspending, the bigger the group of people who wanted entitlements grew. And the harder it was for the 'fiscal conservative' to have any relevance on the national stage. So they started relenting in the guise of compassion.
And those people who 'conveniently popped up now' I'd say mostly always had the reservations they've piped up with lately, but they were largely silent because, to use a turn of phrase, a reluctant thief may be a thief but he's a better alternative to an enthusiastic thief.
Didn't help that Obama satisfied every fear about new spending, new programs, new intrusion, if not in results certainly in aspirations, from jump street.

You certainly couched the discussion in nefarious light for those who think investment in the human capital is valued and a proper need in our technological and advanced civilization.

ROYC75
11-20-2009, 09:14 AM
The whole country should switch to independents and just vote who would serve them best in the house. This all for the party line has gotten us into this problem. Each side wants to rule, never meet in the middle of the road as our founding fathers did.

Baby Lee
11-20-2009, 09:21 AM
You certainly couched the discussion in nefarious light for those who think investment in the human capital is valued and a proper need in our technological and advanced civilization.

You certainly couched the discussion in a nefarious light for those who think that the only way to invest in human capital is for the government to collect our resources and redistribute them.

Jenson71
11-20-2009, 09:22 AM
The whole country should switch to independents and just vote who would serve them best in the house. This all for the party line has gotten us into this problem. Each side wants to rule, never meet in the middle of the road as our founding fathers did.

Yep.

Go Palin!

stevieray
11-20-2009, 09:28 AM
...good call RJ...:thumb:

Garcia Bronco
11-20-2009, 09:29 AM
Excellent choice RJ.

Read Federalist Paper Number 10

fan4ever
11-20-2009, 09:38 AM
I applaud your move but I read somewhere that independents still vote along their old party lines about 85% of the time.

I guess that makes a certain amount of sense but doesn't bode well for a future for a real third party as long as the "good cop, bad cop" parties are still getting the independent vote IMO.

ROYC75
11-20-2009, 09:39 AM
Yep.

Go Palin!

I didn't know you were a fan of her.

She's not my 1st choice in 2012, but I do feel that McCain / Palin would have been better for us than Obama/Biden.

Jenson71
11-20-2009, 09:41 AM
I didn't know you were a fan of her.

She's not my 1st choice in 2012, but I do feel that McCain / Palin would have been better for us than Obama/Biden.

I'm not, I was being sarcastic. I want nothing to do with her. You just never seemed like an independent voter, Roy. You seem like a member of the Republican party base. Members of the base saying "I'm tired of them all arrh arrh arrh!" just means you're sticking unenthusiastically with your party until they have someone you can be enthused about.

ROYC75
11-20-2009, 09:58 AM
I'm not, I was being sarcastic. I want nothing to do with her. You just never seemed like an independent voter, Roy. You seem like a member of the Republican party base. Members of the base saying "I'm tired of them all arrh arrh arrh!" just means you're sticking unenthusiastically with your party until they have someone you can be enthused about.


I didn't think you were, just poking some fun at ya. As for myself, I am a registered republican but many times have jumped parties to vote for a candidate I deemed worthy of my vote.

I have here lately been thinking of switching to independent status because of my displeasure with the GOP in the last 12 years. But seriously, being listed as a Republican, Democrat or Independent doesn't really matters if you vote for whom you feel is the best choice, regardless of party ?

IMHO, to change parties is only a reason because your overall view align with the parties core beliefs.

I'm so far away from Liberal, it's unthinkable that I would vote for any politician as a Liberal. I can live with a slight moderate, but my core beliefs are with being a conservative.

I can relate to Palin in many ways. I can relate to Huckabee in many ways.

To be honest, I have never voted anything other than a republican in a major election, in local elections, state and city, county I have voted some democrat and independent.

Could I vote Democrat or Independent in a major election, yes, if I felt their views and mine are as close as they can get.