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Frankie
11-20-2009, 09:26 AM
Someone on another Chiefs forum posted this:

2. The Chiefs are headed in the right direction.

I cannot stress enough how much this is a big time boom.

We are not talking about the Rams, Raiders, Browns, Bucs, Redskins or Lions here. This team has the pieces in place for success.

Scott Pioli is one of the elite executives in professional sports. He's done a masterful job accumulating picks for the upcoming 2010 draft. He has found help at receiver, plucking Chris Chambers and Bobby Wade off of the scrap heap.

The team Pioli inherited was awful. Carl Peterson left the well bone-dry. And Herm Edwards as a coach? Let's just say he's much better on television. Kansas City played to win the game under Herm, but they just couldn't do it.

Pioli and Todd Haley have changed the culture and accountability. I loved the move cutting the clueless Larry Johnson, who continued to embarrass himself and the organization.

They have a quarterback in Matt Cassel. Chiefs fans will truly see it when Pioli beefs up the offensive line and weapons around him. But you can see the leadership qualities every Sunday.

I like Haley. And so does Pioli. In talking to Pioli on Sirius NFL Radio on Wednesday, the general manager stressed how well Haley has handled the various challenges of this season in Kansas City, ranging from the dismissal of Chan Gailey before the season, to the Johnson situation to Dwayne Bowe's suspension. Pioli loves Haley's drive and passion. And the overmatched Chiefs play hard for four quarters.

Take a deep breath Kansas City. If you actually pay attention to progress, accountability and the individuals in place running the team, there's a lot to look forward to.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/10394958/Boom-or-Bust:-Who%27s-to-blame-for-Bills%27-struggles


(Sorry if repost.)

Fish
11-20-2009, 09:29 AM
ROFL

Yeeaaaaaahh........

Chiefs4TheWin
11-20-2009, 09:30 AM
Optimism? There's no optimism in footbal!

talastan
11-20-2009, 09:33 AM
Good post, it is nice to see a Sports writer praising the efforts of this team every once in a while. :clap:

Mr. Laz
11-20-2009, 09:33 AM
while i agree that the Chiefs look to be headed in the right direction, i still have some big questions about Todd Haley.

right now it looks 50/50 on whether he will boom or bust. He could just as easy have this team turn on him and implode. I guess what bothers me most is that an offensive coordinator he doesn't seem to have a natural feel for play calling.

Jack
11-20-2009, 09:36 AM
This and 70 bucks will gain entrance to Sunday's game

wild1
11-20-2009, 09:36 AM
What picks do we currently own for the 2010 draft?

wild1
11-20-2009, 09:39 AM
And Herm Edwards as a coach? Let's just say he's much better on television.

That's like saying Siberia is warmer than the South Pole

OnTheWarpath58
11-20-2009, 09:40 AM
What picks do we currently own for the 2010 draft?

One more than the standard seven.

Which makes it ridiculous that someone would imply that Pioli is "accumulating" or stockpiling picks.

Cleveland is accumulating picks, they have 12 or 13.

We have 8.

Fairplay
11-20-2009, 09:40 AM
kcjonny wrote that.

OnTheWarpath58
11-20-2009, 09:40 AM
kcjonny wrote that.

LMAO

I actually like Schein and Gannon's show on Sirius NFL Radio, but I'm wondering if he's recently taken a blow to the head.

Bacon Cheeseburger
11-20-2009, 09:43 AM
I don't understand how anyone can say they're headed in the right direction when the team hasn't improved one iota this year.

Fish
11-20-2009, 09:44 AM
Also... that Obama guy.... yeah things are looking up for sure......

Hooray Life!!!! Dance a jig...

pr_capone
11-20-2009, 09:47 AM
I don't understand how anyone can say they're headed in the right direction when the team hasn't improved one iota this year.

We have matched out win total from last year and have surpassed the sack total from last year.

That's something... its not all doom and gloom.

Oh yeah... and LJ is gone.

ChiefJustice
11-20-2009, 09:58 AM
Damnmit Dane....

Do I have to pick up your lazy west coast slack?

Rainbows and Unicorns!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_u7-mcI6i95Q/R4qb9qp6woI/AAAAAAAAAI4/DWIO5i94vj8/s320/lisafrank.gif

Jack
11-20-2009, 10:02 AM
Also... that Obama guy.... yeah things are looking up for sure......

Hooray Life!!!! Dance a jig...

Uh oh, somebody gonna pull that trigger on your avatar. . .

BigVE
11-20-2009, 10:03 AM
Don't you realize that your not supposed to be optimistic or positive about this team? What is wrong with you? ;) (thanks for posting this)

KCbroncoHATER
11-20-2009, 10:04 AM
I will read that again when the chefs ask me for another $2300 for season tickets.

Coogs
11-20-2009, 10:22 AM
I thought we just had a whole thread dedicated to Bill Mass saying Cassel = Grbac? :shrug:

wasi
11-20-2009, 10:33 AM
I don't understand how anyone can say they're headed in the right direction when the team hasn't improved one iota this year.

I'll admit there hasn't been as much noticable improvement as I thougth.

The biggest difference is that for whatever reason I don't feel hopeless when I watch the Chiefs this year as opposed to last season. I really think if we had a little better players or play in spots we would be more competitive overall any even have a couple more wins maybe.

Keeping in mind we have barely gotten out of the blocks with this new GM/HC duo, I refuse to read too much into the product on the field and I'm trying to keep an eye on the big picture as much as possible.

wild1
11-20-2009, 10:35 AM
One more than the standard seven.

Which makes it ridiculous that someone would imply that Pioli is "accumulating" or stockpiling picks.

Cleveland is accumulating picks, they have 12 or 13.

We have 8.

We have two 2nd round picks, because of the Gonzalez trade, right?

Coogs
11-20-2009, 10:57 AM
We have two 2nd round picks, because of the Gonzalez trade, right?

Correct. And three 5ths including one for Thigpen and one for Tank. No 6th (supposedly) for the Miami O-linemen deal. No 7th for one of TE's in last years draft.

philfree
11-20-2009, 11:05 AM
We have matched out win total from last year and have surpassed the sack total from last year.

That's something... its not all doom and gloom.

Oh yeah... and LJ is gone.

Since early in the season The Chiefs have really improved on the amount of penaltys they have per game. I think that's a big improvement.

PhilFree:arrow:

carlos3652
11-20-2009, 11:21 AM
I dont know about you, but 1,2,2,3,4,5,5,5 is better than the norm...

carlos3652
11-20-2009, 11:22 AM
I cant believe people feel that we havent improved at all... sure we regressed in some areas, but there is improvement in some areas...

Chris Meck
11-20-2009, 11:24 AM
I think things are getting better, for all the reasons in the original post.

My main concerns are:

a)I don't personally like the idea that you force a 'system' on a team that doesn't have the personnel to run it. Square pegs and round holes, all that. I understand that Pioli/Haley didn't think there was anyone at all worth building around defensively or offensively. I just think that maybe in the long run the switch to a 3-4 will cost us a year in which we had to get guys to run it. Maybe it all works out in the end-but I don't think Pendergast is the guy.

b)I SOOO don't agree with the decision to address all these other areas and basically neglect the offensive line. I know it's not a popular position on this board, but in my opinion there is no more crucial area on a football team. Qb's, RB's and WR's are worthless if the line sucks. The $60 million we invested in Cassel gets less likely to pay off every time he drops back and gets crushed immediately. Some guys never recover. (See David Carr, Joey Harrington, etc.)

c)While I like Haley's fire and emotion-he needs to keep it in check. He makes some DUMB game decisions-like going for it on 4th down in a 3 point game in easy field goal range. KICK THE DAMNED FG! Jesus!

carlos3652
11-20-2009, 11:26 AM
One more than the standard seven.

Which makes it ridiculous that someone would imply that Pioli is "accumulating" or stockpiling picks.

Cleveland is accumulating picks, they have 12 or 13.

We have 8.

Cmon OTWP

Accumulate: To mount up; increase.

Why you bashing his writing... he didnt say stockpiling... he said accumulate and he is correct...

Frankie
11-20-2009, 11:46 AM
I think things are getting better, for all the reasons in the original post.

My main concerns are:

a)I don't personally like the idea that you force a 'system' on a team that doesn't have the personnel to run it. Square pegs and round holes, all that. I understand that Pioli/Haley didn't think there was anyone at all worth building around defensively or offensively. I just think that maybe in the long run the switch to a 3-4 will cost us a year in which we had to get guys to run it. Maybe it all works out in the end-but I don't think Pendergast is the guy.

b)I SOOO don't agree with the decision to address all these other areas and basically neglect the offensive line. I know it's not a popular position on this board, but in my opinion there is no more crucial area on a football team. Qb's, RB's and WR's are worthless if the line sucks. The $60 million we invested in Cassel gets less likely to pay off every time he drops back and gets crushed immediately. Some guys never recover. (See David Carr, Joey Harrington, etc.)

c)While I like Haley's fire and emotion-he needs to keep it in check. He makes some DUMB game decisions-like going for it on 4th down in a 3 point game in easy field goal range. KICK THE DAMNED FG! Jesus!

My thoughts exactly. Especially a and b.

Marcellus
11-20-2009, 12:12 PM
I dont know about you, but 1,2,2,3,4,5,5,5 is better than the norm...

This. I would rather have 2 2nds and 3 5ths than the 6th and 7th we gave up. So yes we are ahead.

And

We have matched out win total from last year and have surpassed the sack total from last year.

That's something... its not all doom and gloom.

Oh yeah... and LJ is gone.

RedThat
11-20-2009, 12:18 PM
Well, I definately see a positive sign by accumulating draft picks. That to me, is a very smart thing to do for a team that is so devoid on talent. By accumulating draft picks, I feel the first step is taken care of, now hopefully the Chiefs can draft well under Pioli. If they can, then we are bound to see significant improvements throughout the roster.

I think Pioli set up his team in a situation to improve and now its just a matter of whether the guys around him can do their homework well enough.

Fish
11-20-2009, 01:05 PM
Well, I definately see a positive sign by accumulating draft picks. That to me, is a very smart thing to do for a team that is so devoid on talent. By accumulating draft picks, I feel the first step is taken care of, now hopefully the Chiefs can draft well under Pioli. If they can, then we are bound to see significant improvements throughout the roster.

I think Pioli set up his team in a situation to improve and now its just a matter of whether the guys around him can do their homework well enough.

Yeah... just like the 2008 draft when the first step was taken care of with the 12 draft picks we had then...

Another first step... all over again...

RedThat
11-20-2009, 01:16 PM
Yeah... just like the 2008 draft when the first step was taken care of with the 12 draft picks we had then...

Another first step... all over again...

Just keep trying. That's all they can do. Keep trying.

ThunderChief
11-20-2009, 02:26 PM
SOS. Blah, blah, blah. Show me something and we'll talk about it. Until then? STFU.

Raised On Riots
11-20-2009, 04:57 PM
Well that settles it then; I'm off to go shit some Rainbows and Ice Cream!

bevischief
11-20-2009, 05:10 PM
Share whatever you are smoking...

Frankie
11-20-2009, 08:11 PM
Share whatever you are smoking...

Very weak attempt at wittiness. I did not write the article. I just posted it for those who might be interested. If you are not, then leave the thread.

milkman
11-20-2009, 08:20 PM
I think things are getting better, for all the reasons in the original post.

My main concerns are:

a)I don't personally like the idea that you force a 'system' on a team that doesn't have the personnel to run it. Square pegs and round holes, all that. I understand that Pioli/Haley didn't think there was anyone at all worth building around defensively or offensively. I just think that maybe in the long run the switch to a 3-4 will cost us a year in which we had to get guys to run it. Maybe it all works out in the end-but I don't think Pendergast is the guy.

b)I SOOO don't agree with the decision to address all these other areas and basically neglect the offensive line. I know it's not a popular position on this board, but in my opinion there is no more crucial area on a football team. Qb's, RB's and WR's are worthless if the line sucks. The $60 million we invested in Cassel gets less likely to pay off every time he drops back and gets crushed immediately. Some guys never recover. (See David Carr, Joey Harrington, etc.)

c)While I like Haley's fire and emotion-he needs to keep it in check. He makes some DUMB game decisions-like going for it on 4th down in a 3 point game in easy field goal range. KICK THE DAMNED FG! Jesus!

David Carr was responsible for that O-Line looking as bad as they did in Texas.

The sack total dropped by well over half the season after Carr was replaced, and the only upgrade to that line was Jordan Black.

milkman
11-20-2009, 08:23 PM
There wasn't a lot in the cupboard when Pioli took over, but they weren't empty.

Pioli just decided to tear out the old cupboard, with the few items still in there, and build a new cupboard.

keg in kc
11-20-2009, 08:23 PM
David Carr was responsible for that O-Line looking as bad as they did in Texas.

The sack total dropped by well over half the season after Carr was replaced, and the only upgrade to that line was Jordan Black.I think it's safe to say Cassel isn't the problem with the line here.

milkman
11-20-2009, 08:24 PM
I think it's safe to say Cassel isn't the problem with the line here.

Oh, I agree, but I couldn't just let that misinformed point just stand.

OnTheWarpath58
11-20-2009, 08:25 PM
There wasn't a lot in the cupboard when Pioli took over, but they weren't empty.

Pioli just decided to tear out the old cupboard, with the few items still in there, and build a new cupboard.

The cupboard was mostly filled with plastic cups.

I think most of us were at least expecting him to restock with even some cheap glasses.

Problem is, he restocked with HIS plastic cups.

Raised On Riots
11-20-2009, 08:34 PM
The cupboard was mostly filled with plastic cups.

I think most of us were at least expecting him to restock with even some cheap glasses.

Problem is, he restocked with HIS used, plastic, Urinalysis cups.

fxd thx!

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 12:16 AM
This is a stupid fucking article.

Thanks, Frankie. I'd expect no less.

First off, if you're trading your 6th round pick for two offensive lineman that suck ass, you're NOT accumulating picks.

If you're trading your 7th round pick for a Tight End that can't get on the field and when he does, he sucks ass, is not my idea of wisely accumulating picks.

Trading a third string QB, who quite frankly was playing as well or better than your $63 million dollar man, is not my idea of wisely accumulating picks.

Trading a promising DT/NT for a draft pick TWO ROUNDS below his drafted position while he is STILL young and ascending isn't my idea of wisely accumulating picks.

Trading a HOF tight end for a low second round pick while he's still putting up excellent numbers, is not my idea of wisely accumulating picks.

While it's true that Gonzalez and Tyler weren't necessary or needed in the new, wonderful and incredible scheme, their presence would have helped more than hurt. And as for Thigpen, IMO, he's Cassel only a few inches shorter.

Wisely accumulating picks would have had the Genius of Two Milleniums trade down multiple times in the 2009 draft to address need along the offensive line, WR, RB, D-Line and linebacker positions.

Instead, an undrafted free agent signed in 2008 has been the most productive d-lineman to date.

Go figure.

lostcause
11-21-2009, 12:34 AM
KC has tied last year's win record which is nice - with no guarantees any more wins will happen. The problem is how often we have looked so completely outclassed on an NFL field during the losses....

Oh fuck it... Lets just sweep the broncos.

scott free
11-21-2009, 01:27 AM
b)I SOOO don't agree with the decision to address all these other areas and basically neglect the offensive line. I know it's not a popular position on this board, but in my opinion there is no more crucial area on a football team. Qb's, RB's and WR's are worthless if the line sucks. The $60 million we invested in Cassel gets less likely to pay off every time he drops back and gets crushed immediately. Some guys never recover. (See David Carr, Joey Harrington, etc.

I can certainly agree with 100% of this, its a legit criticism & cautionary tale... this offseason is hopefully going to have BLOCKBUSTER draft & FA moves on the O line.

The SuperCalaFradjaListic Football Executive of the Millenium, wont fail on it twice IMO... he's had to have learned something, from all of that success.

Rausch
11-21-2009, 01:53 AM
I think things are getting better, for all the reasons in the original post.

My main concerns are:

a)I don't personally like the idea that you force a 'system' on a team that doesn't have the personnel to run it. Square pegs and round holes, all that. I understand that Pioli/Haley didn't think there was anyone at all worth building around defensively or offensively. I just think that maybe in the long run the switch to a 3-4 will cost us a year in which we had to get guys to run it. Maybe it all works out in the end-but I don't think Pendergast is the guy.

Completely agree.

I'm less worried about the 3/4 switch than I am a new and "Green" QB being brought in and nothing done to put a line in front of him. Think whatever you want about Cassel but he's got one of the 4 worst offensive lines in football.

I think players like Hali are doing better in this scheme. DJ (who seems built for a 3-4 defense) is still underachieving. I don't blame the scheme for that I blame the player.

b)I SOOO don't agree with the decision to address all these other areas and basically neglect the offensive line. I know it's not a popular position on this board, but in my opinion there is no more crucial area on a football team.

COMPLETELY agree. This is my biggest gripe with this offseason/HC/GM.

Fucking dumb with exponents to trade for your QB and then do nearly nothing to protect him.

c)While I like Haley's fire and emotion-he needs to keep it in check. He makes some DUMB game decisions-like going for it on 4th down in a 3 point game in easy field goal range. KICK THE DAMNED FG! Jesus!

He reminds me of a young Gruden.

There's a big difference though. Chucky would tell you he was going to kick your grandmother in the ovaries after a dropped pass. True enough.

He was also the first guy to run down the field screaming if you caught the game winning TD and might then tackle and hug you later. His love/hate was balanced.

Firm, but fair...

milkman
11-21-2009, 05:47 AM
Completely agree.

I'm less worried about the 3/4 switch than I am a new and "Green" QB being brought in and nothing done to put a line in front of him. Think whatever you want about Cassel but he's got one of the 4 worst offensive lines in football.

I think players like Hali are doing better in this scheme. DJ (who seems built for a 3-4 defense) is still underachieving. I don't blame the scheme for that I blame the player.

Hali isn't producing at the same level in this scheme at ROLB as he was as the LDE in the 43.

He reminds me of a young Gruden.

There's a big difference though. Chucky would tell you he was going to kick your grandmother in the ovaries after a dropped pass. True enough.

He was also the first guy to run down the field screaming if you caught the game winning TD and might then tackle and hug you later. His love/hate was balanced.

Firm, but fair...

While I have some questions and concerns about Haley's ability, he has been as more balanced than the TV cameras have shown, rewarding players for hard work, and praising them for their positive efforts.

The Bad Guy
11-21-2009, 06:06 AM
Trading a promising DT/NT for a draft pick TWO ROUNDS below his drafted position while he is STILL young and ascending isn't my idea of wisely accumulating picks.

Trading a HOF tight end for a low second round pick while he's still putting up excellent numbers, is not my idea of wisely accumulating picks.

While it's true that Gonzalez and Tyler weren't necessary or needed in the new, wonderful and incredible scheme, their presence would have helped more than hurt. And as for Thigpen, IMO, he's Cassel only a few inches shorter.



While you make some good points earlier, these 2 are just out of control ridiculous.

Where was Tyler ascending? He was terrible, period. What improvement did he show? I know it's the vogue thing to do around here, you know, praise players that sucked when they are on new teams, but this is out of hand already. I saw him make one good play all year - and that was last Thursday when his helmet flew off.

The 2nd round pick is accumulating draft picks. Tony Gonzalez did not want to be here. He did not buy in. He is 34, and while productive, getting a 2nd round pick for him was a great move.

And now we are defending Thigpen? Good lord almighty.

Marcellus
11-21-2009, 07:36 AM
Hali isn't producing at the same level in this scheme at ROLB as he was as the LDE in the 43.

When Hali was LDE for 2 seasons he had Jared Allen on the other side.

When Allen left and they moved him to RDE he sucked ass and when they moved him back to LDE he played average at best without Allen on the right side.

I know he had 8 and 7.5 sacks his first 2 years but he also had Allen on the other side both seasons. Allen left he had 3 last year.

It is fair to say that at either position he needs another play maker around him to help him out.

milkman
11-21-2009, 07:48 AM
When Hali was LDE for 2 seasons he had Jared Allen on the other side.

When Allen left and they moved him to RDE he sucked ass and when they moved him back to LDE he played average at best without Allen on the right side.

I know he had 8 and 7.5 sacks his first 2 years but he also had Allen on the other side both seasons. Allen left he had 3 last year.

It is fair to say that at either position he needs another play maker around him to help him out.

He's playing behind Dorsey, who is getting penetration, commanding attention, and generally being disruptive, thus getting the advantage of being single blocked, and he's not producing at a level that a more competent ROLB would be in the smae situation.

Chiefless
11-21-2009, 09:21 AM
He's playing behind Dorsey, who is getting penetration, commanding attention, and generally being disruptive, thus getting the advantage of being single blocked, and he's not producing at a level that a more competent ROLB would be in the smae situation.

I agree, but he still looks better than I expected. Hali will be here for a long time I think. From Haley's perspective he is a positive example of how buying into his vision will allow players to perform above their expectations. IMO he wants to see the above average and elite players work that hard because they will then become unstoppable. He can point to Hali and say something like : "Look at tamba...he is not very athletically gifted and playing out of position but he works hard, does what we ask and therefore plays nearly as well as more athletically gifted players who try to get by on talent alone."

From what I can piece together that is the culture Haley is trying to instill and Hali is a poster child for it. So, while I don't believe he's a great starter I have come to terms with the fact that he will be in some rotation throughout this rebuild.

carlos3652
11-21-2009, 09:26 AM
OTWP and Dane:

"He's done a masterful job accumulating picks for the upcoming 2010 draft" - this is the quote in questions from the article.

All this means is that they have more draft picks this year than the norm, and better picks than the norm.... am I missing something?

Tyler for a 5th. Gonzo for a 2nd and Tank for a 5th. - that was great value on at least 2 of the 3. And losing the 6th and the 7th for 3 players (1 who would be starting at RG if not hurt, the other 2 backup players this year) is not THAT bad... that 6th and 7th rounder usually amounts to NOTHING.

So you are saying that 1,2,2,3,4,5,5,5 is not better than 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.

Please enlighten me on this, cause i think you guys went a bit overboard on what he is trying to say... It was a correct statement made.

And he didnt make a statement on the 2009 draft, just the 2010 draft...

PS Dane, while a feel some of your points are good on this one, i think this article on this quote is correct.

milkman
11-21-2009, 09:46 AM
I agree, but he still looks better than I expected. Hali will be here for a long time I think. From Haley's perspective he is a positive example of how buying into his vision will allow players to perform above their expectations. IMO he wants to see the above average and elite players work that hard because they will then become unstoppable. He can point to Hali and say something like : "Look at tamba...he is not very athletically gifted and playing out of position but he works hard, does what we ask and therefore plays nearly as well as more athletically gifted players who try to get by on talent alone."

From what I can piece together that is the culture Haley is trying to instill and Hali is a poster child for it. So, while I don't believe he's a great starter I have come to terms with the fact that he will be in some rotation throughout this rebuild.

I don't disagree here, I am simply pointing out that I don't believe his production at ROLB in a 34 is equal to what his production has been/can be as a LDE in a 43.

OTWP and Dane:

"He's done a masterful job accumulating picks for the upcoming 2010 draft" - this is the quote in questions from the article.

All this means is that they have more draft picks this year than the norm, and better picks than the norm.... am I missing something?

Tyler for a 5th. Gonzo for a 2nd and Tank for a 5th. - that was great value on at least 2 of the 3. And losing the 6th and the 7th for 3 players (1 who would be starting at RG if not hurt, the other 2 backup players this year) is not THAT bad... that 6th and 7th rounder usually amounts to NOTHING.

So you are saying that 1,2,2,3,4,5,5,5 is not better than 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.

Please enlighten me on this, cause i think you guys went a bit overboard on what he is trying to say... It was a correct statement made.

And he didnt make a statement on the 2009 draft, just the 2010 draft...

PS Dane, while a feel some of your points are good on this one, i think this article on this quote is correct.

Ryan Succop is a 7th rounder that is producing for the Cheifs right now, and looks like the guy who will finally be the long term solution for the Chiefs in a position that has been a long term problem.

Demetrius Bell, a 7th round draft pick for the Buffalo Bills is playing pretty solidly, and looks like in time can be a top quality LT.

Jarred Page was a 7th rounder.
Marques Colston was a 7th rounder.

Allenman and Ndukwe might be here for a couple of years, and trading draft picks for known scrubs, while not the worst decision, isn't really a good decision.

Fairplay
11-21-2009, 09:52 AM
I can certainly agree with 100% of this, its a legit criticism & cautionary tale... this offseason is hopefully going to have BLOCKBUSTER draft & FA moves on the O line.

The SuperCalaFradjaListic Football Executive of the Millenium, wont fail on it twice IMO... he's had to have learned something, from all of that success.



Mecca's going to advise him on the draft this time.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 10:04 AM
While you make some good points earlier, these 2 are just out of control ridiculous.

Where was Tyler ascending? He was terrible, period. What improvement did he show? I know it's the vogue thing to do around here, you know, praise players that sucked when they are on new teams, but this is out of hand already. I saw him make one good play all year - and that was last Thursday when his helmet flew off.

The 2nd round pick is accumulating draft picks. Tony Gonzalez did not want to be here. He did not buy in. He is 34, and while productive, getting a 2nd round pick for him was a great move.

And now we are defending Thigpen? Good lord almighty.

Well, I disagree on Tyler. I thought he played pretty well Thursday night against Miami. Maybe I'm biased because I'm friends with his DC from NC State (Morgan as well) but I think Tyler is going to be a decent player in the NFL and you certainly shouldn't dump a guy with his power and speed after two years.

As for Gonzalez, he only wanted out after it had been determined that Haley & Pioli took over. He'd still be here if Herm were coach. But I firmly believe that you NEVER trade a Hall of Famer, especially a player that hasn't declined. While I'm happy that the Chiefs got a late 2nd for him, I'm extremely skeptical, based on the 2009 draft, that Pioli will draft a productive player, let alone a Hall of Famer.

As for Thigpen, I was in no way defending him. I was just pointing out how absolutely ironic it was to trade a 2nd for Cassel and hand him keys to the franchise (and $28 million guaranteed) when to this point, he's proven to be nothing other than a shorter version of Thigpen.

Chiefless
11-21-2009, 10:08 AM
I don't disagree here, I am simply pointing out that I don't believe his production at ROLB in a 34 is equal to what his production has been/can be as a LDE in a 43.


Yea, I can't argue against that. He's a role player no matter where he plays tho. I'm not minimizing that, but expecting him to be the man on D is futile (I realize you weren't saying that). This team has amassed good role players on D now if they can just find a stud or two for the front 7 they will be in bidness. Paging DJs potential...DJ's potential please report to the locker room it's time to be realized.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 10:12 AM
Yea, I can't argue against that. He's a role player no matter where he plays tho. I'm not minimizing that, but expecting him to be the man on D is futile (I realize you weren't saying that). This team has amassed good role players on D now if they can just find a stud or two for the front 7 they will be in bidness. Paging DJs potential...DJ's potential please report to the locker room it's time to be realized.

DJ's fucking worthless. He hasn't improved his game since his rookie year.

Expecting anything from him now is expecting too much.

He's a bust.

milkman
11-21-2009, 10:17 AM
As for Thigpen, I was in no way defending him. I was just pointing out how absolutely ironic it was to trade a 2nd for Cassel and hand him keys to the franchise (and $28 million guaranteed) when to this point, he's proven to be nothing other than a shorter version of Thigpen.

Had your vision checked lately?

:D

Chiefless
11-21-2009, 10:20 AM
Well, I disagree on Tyler. I thought he played pretty well Thursday night against Miami. Maybe I'm biased because I'm friends with his DC from NC State (Morgan as well) but I think Tyler is going to be a decent player in the NFL and you certainly shouldn't dump a guy with his power and speed after two years.

I agree...he was serviceable and young, but buried on the depth chart. He did what was asked of him by the new regime and was rewarded by being moved to a team where he could start and play in a position more suited to his skills. This IMO was a win win.

As for Gonzalez, he only wanted out after it had been determined that Haley & Pioli took over. He'd still be here if Herm were coach. But I firmly believe that you NEVER trade a Hall of Famer, especially a player that hasn't declined. While I'm happy that the Chiefs got a late 2nd for him, I'm extremely skeptical, based on the 2009 draft, that Pioli will draft a productive player, let alone a Hall of Famer.

I disagree here, Gonzo pissed and moaned almost every year. He has taken his beefs with management to the press on countless occasions causing unnecessary distractions and drama. Right or wrong, that is something Pioli will not tolerate. So, to get a second round choice while unloading a known headache is commendable. Yes I know he is still productive, but it would have largely gone to waste on this years and likely next years team. By the time KC is truly competitive again Gonzo should be on his way out of the league. I think it was a good risk and the right time to make the move.

As for Thigpen, I was in no way defending him. I was just pointing out how absolutely ironic it was to trade a 2nd for Cassel and hand him keys to the franchise (and $28 million guaranteed) when to this point, he's proven to be nothing other than a shorter version of Thigpen.

I don't even want to think about that. I only hope his tenure follows Trent Green's where he sucked balls the first year and was brilliant for the next few.

Chiefless
11-21-2009, 10:22 AM
DJ's ****ing worthless. He hasn't improved his game since his rookie year.

Expecting anything from him now is expecting too much.

He's a bust.

Oh I know. Just making a point. The player DJ was supposed to be is one of the crucial missing pieces and I'm frustrated by it.

Marcellus
11-21-2009, 10:29 AM
Well, I disagree on Tyler. I thought he played pretty well Thursday night against Miami. Maybe I'm biased because I'm friends with his DC from NC State (Morgan as well) but I think Tyler is going to be a decent player in the NFL and you certainly shouldn't dump a guy with his power and speed after two years.

As for Gonzalez, he only wanted out after it had been determined that Haley & Pioli took over. He'd still be here if Herm were coach. But I firmly believe that you NEVER trade a Hall of Famer, especially a player that hasn't declined. While I'm happy that the Chiefs got a late 2nd for him, I'm extremely skeptical, based on the 2009 draft, that Pioli will draft a productive player, let alone a Hall of Famer.


So you have completely forgot the shit storm before the trade dead line last year where Gonzo told Peterson he wanted out? Gonzo went Gonzo after he didn't get to catch the TE receiving record pass at home as well, this was on Herm's watch. Remember that?

Your admitted bias due to knowing the d-coordinator of NC State explains a lot as well.

Everything you post is based on your opinion Pioli hasn't a clue what he is doing after 1 draft and 1 offseason.

You seriously have 5,000 post saying the exact same thing over and over. We get it, you dislike Pioli.

I am not sure how continually complaining about Pioli is constructive or productive regarding anything but an attempt in beating your opinion into other people.

milkman
11-21-2009, 10:35 AM
So you have completely forgot the shit storm before the trade dead line last year where Gonzo told Peterson he wanted out? Gonzo went Gonzo after he didn't get to catch the TE receiving record pass at home as well, this was on Herm's watch. Remember that?

Your admitted bias due to knowing the d-coordinator of NC State explains a lot as well.

Everything you post is based on your opinion Pioli hasn't a clue what he is doing after 1 draft and 1 offseason.

You seriously have 5,000 post saying the exact same thing over and over. We get it, you dislike Pioli.

I am not sure how continually complaining about Pioli is constructive or productive regarding anything but an attempt in beating your opinion into other people.

The thing is, Dane is right about Tank.

He and Turk, along with Dorsey and Hali could all have been contributors in a soild D-Line rotation in a 43.

Tank is never going to ba a pro bowler, but as a guy who could spell Dorsey to keep him fresh, he would have been a great complementary player.

Chiefless
11-21-2009, 10:47 AM
The thing is, Dane is right about Tank.

He and Turk, along with Dorsey and Hali could all have been contributors in a soild D-Line rotation in a 43.

Tank is never going to ba a pro bowler, but as a guy who could spell Dorsey to keep him fresh, he would have been a great complementary player.

Yea, what troubles me more than Dane being right about Tank is that I can't build a solid argument to refute his pointing out that thus far Cassel doesn't look MUCH better than Thigpen in any real measurable way. I believe that there are many, many factors that are affecting his play and that once those problem are ironed out he will be a fine if unspectacular QB, but as of this moment he HAS to at the very least be considered a major question mark.

Marcellus
11-21-2009, 10:59 AM
Yea, what troubles me more than Dane being right about Tank is that I can't build a solid argument to refute his pointing out that thus far Cassel doesn't look MUCH better than Thigpen in any real measurable way. I believe that there are many, many factors that are affecting his play and that once those problem are ironed out he will be a fine if unspectacular QB, but as of this moment he HAS to at the very least be considered a major question mark.


While I am also disappointed in Cassel so far make sure you use the same argument when comparing them.

The knock on Thigpen from everyone here was he couldn't play from under center and only looked decent in the spread "gimmick" offense. We were wasting time with him because of that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8644

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10660&sYear=2008

Cassel's numbers are best on the 2 WR set. That is Thigpen's worst formation set.

Most of Thigpen's attempts last year were from the 4 wr spread set. That's Cassel's least used formation.

You cant say all Thigpen's numbers were driven by the offense and bash him for it then bash Cassel saying he doesn't look much better using the offense you stated Thigpen couldn't operate from at all.

You are comparing apples to oranges at this point and it is using 2 arguments against each other depending on who you want to bash.

chiefzilla1501
11-21-2009, 11:05 AM
While I am also disappointed in Cassel so far make sure you use the same argument when comparing them.

The knock on Thigpen from everyone here was he couldn't play from under center and only looked decent in the spread "gimmick" offense. We were wasting time with him because of that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8644

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10660&sYear=2008

Cassel's numbers are best on the 2 WR set. That is Thigpen's worst formation set.

Most of Thigpen's attempts last year were from the 4 wr spread set. That's Cassel's least used formation.

You cant say all Thigpen's numbers were driven by the offense and bash him for it then bash Cassel saying he doesn't look much better using the offense you stated Thigpen couldn't operate from at all.

You are comparing apples to oranges at this point and it is using 2 arguments against each other depending on who you want to bash.

Both good points. Thigpen's offense revolved around a spread set, where the protection is generally better because your QB has a lot more time to react to the rush--it also spreads the blitzers out a bit. But your point about WRs is important too, because the Chiefs have been running a ton of max protect this season with their TEs. There isn't a shred of a doubt that Thigpen had a cooshier situation.

I was upset about Gonzo getting traded. But even if he was here, I don't know how much he could have done. The pass protection has been so bad that I wouldn't be surprised if he would have been asked to pass protect a lot more than he's used to. I can't help but wonder if that was one of the biggest reasons he was traded. He was not happy at all with Vermeil when he was told he needed to block more.

Chiefless
11-21-2009, 11:28 AM
While I am also disappointed in Cassel so far make sure you use the same argument when comparing them.

The knock on Thigpen from everyone here was he couldn't play from under center and only looked decent in the spread "gimmick" offense. We were wasting time with him because of that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8644

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10660&sYear=2008

Cassel's numbers are best on the 2 WR set. That is Thigpen's worst formation set.

Most of Thigpen's attempts last year were from the 4 wr spread set. That's Cassel's least used formation.

You cant say all Thigpen's numbers were driven by the offense and bash him for it then bash Cassel saying he doesn't look much better using the offense you stated Thigpen couldn't operate from at all.

You are comparing apples to oranges at this point and it is using 2 arguments against each other depending on who you want to bash.

I was not really intending to compare and contrast their games. I was really only comparing their bottom lines which are disappointingly similar. I realize the paths they took to arrive at their respective bottom lines is important and merits conversation, but that was really not my intent here. Mine was an extremely broad observation and nothing more.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 11:31 AM
I am not sure how continually complaining about Pioli is constructive or productive regarding anything but an attempt in beating your opinion into other people.

I'd like for you to explain how continually complaining about me is productive or constructive.

I'll be anxiously awaiting your response.

chiefzilla1501
11-21-2009, 11:35 AM
The thing is, Dane is right about Tank.

He and Turk, along with Dorsey and Hali could all have been contributors in a soild D-Line rotation in a 43.

Tank is never going to ba a pro bowler, but as a guy who could spell Dorsey to keep him fresh, he would have been a great complementary player.

Also sad that if we play the hindsight game, the Chiefs could have had Orakpo to make for better Ends on the line. In their defense, I thought Orakpo was going to be a bust. Also, in their defense, the defense would have struggled without a MLB or any decent play from the Safeties. We'll see. I'm not overly thrilled that we rushed into a 3-4. I agree that the foundation of this defense was not that far away if we stuck with a 4-3.

Jerm
11-21-2009, 11:50 AM
This has been a typical rebuild season for me.

There's times when the play on the field is beyond laughable and makes me want to vomit and then there's times it looks really promising and you see signs of improvement.

At times Haley does things that make me want to pull my hair out but then on the flip side, I love his passion and fire and I really think he has a chance to be a great HC. I love the values he and Pioli are establishing within the organization and with individual players...its been needed for quite some time.

The fact that this team with the lack of talent could have 4 or even 5 wins at this point is enough reason for me to be optimistic.

I'm as impatient as anyone else and I want a winner now but I do know I overreact at times because of the frustration.

There's a ways to go in this process but I can see Pioli and Haley getting us there.
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DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 11:51 AM
Also sad that if we play the hindsight game, the Chiefs could have had Orakpo to make for better Ends on the line. In their defense, I thought Orakpo was going to be a bust. Also, in their defense, the defense would have struggled without a MLB or any decent play from the Safeties. We'll see. I'm not overly thrilled that we rushed into a 3-4. I agree that the foundation of this defense was not that far away if we stuck with a 4-3.

Maualuga in the second would have been HUGE. This defense, as a 4-3, wasn't that far from being competitive.

But Pioli has opted to start from scratch, so it may be a few years before they climb out of the 20's.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 11:59 AM
So you have completely forgot the shit storm before the trade dead line last year where Gonzo told Peterson he wanted out? Gonzo went Gonzo after he didn't get to catch the TE receiving record pass at home as well, this was on Herm's watch. Remember that?

So? He was under contract. He had no options. Furthermore, he wasn't against coming back to the Chiefs in 2009 until they fired Herm. He even said himself that he enjoyed playing with Thigpen.

Your admitted bias due to knowing the d-coordinator of NC State explains a lot as well.

Bias? No. He's provided some poor information as well. But Tank Tyler was considered a mid-first rounder just 2 weeks before the draft. Morgan should have stayed another year but he's clearly the best safety on the roster. And I trust a guy's opinion that's coached some pretty good players, including Mario Williams.

Furthermore, for some unknown reason, you can't grasp the concept of role players. Those guys are the hallmark of great teams. Both Tank & Turk are playing to their respective draft positions and both will only improve. The mere fact that the Chiefs got a 5th round pick for Tyler, three years after he was drafted late in the third round, SHOULD tell you something about his NFL value.

Everything you post is based on your opinion Pioli hasn't a clue what he is doing after 1 draft and 1 offseason.

Uh, this isn't Pioli's first season. He's supposedly been an integral part of 4 Super Bowl teams. He's not a first-timer.

And based on that, his performance to date has been extremely disappointing.

You seriously have 5,000 post saying the exact same thing over and over. We get it, you dislike Pioli.

Really? You know what I think? I think you're a fucking moron with absolutely nothing to add to ANY conversation so instead, you nitpick and nag others for their opinions.

Why don't you put me on ignore and spare us ALL, okay?

Frankie
11-21-2009, 12:35 PM
Hali isn't producing at the same level in this scheme at ROLB as he was as the LDE in the 43.

Hali's best production in a 43 was only when the opposition had to account for that certain RE too. Hali's doing surprisingly well in the new scheme without that luxury. The two situations cannot easily be compared.

Frankie
11-21-2009, 12:39 PM
When Hali was LDE for 2 seasons he had Jared Allen on the other side.

I guess it's true. Genius minds think alike.

Frankie
11-21-2009, 12:40 PM
Tyler for a 5th. Gonzo for a 2nd and Tank for a 5th. - that was great value on at least 2 of the 3.

?

chiefzilla1501
11-21-2009, 12:58 PM
Maualuga in the second would have been HUGE. This defense, as a 4-3, wasn't that far from being competitive.

But Pioli has opted to start from scratch, so it may be a few years before they climb out of the 20's.

We'll see. Too soon to tell. Personally, I think it all revolves around Sanchez. The Chiefs needed to bring some kind of QB, whether that was Sanchez or Cassel. So the question will become whether Orakpo/Tyson Jackson + Matt Cassel will be greater than Mark Sanchez + Rey Maualuga. Right now that latter is looking better. But frankly, I'm not that sold on Sanchez and if Cassel is comparable to Sanchez, then Maualuga means nothing to me.

milkman
11-21-2009, 01:35 PM
Hali's best production in a 43 was only when the opposition had to account for that certain RE too. Hali's doing surprisingly well in the new scheme without that luxury. The two situations cannot easily be compared.

And as I said, though you failed to acknowledge it, Dorsey's production on the line should be a boon for Hali, and he's failing to produce at a level he shoud be.

Raised On Riots
11-21-2009, 01:36 PM
We'll see. Too soon to tell. Personally, I think it all revolves around Sanchez. The Chiefs needed to bring some kind of QB, whether that was Sanchez or Cassel. So the question will become whether Orakpo/Tyson Jackson + Matt Cassel will be greater than Mark Sanchez + Rey Maualuga. Right now that latter is looking better. But frankly, I'm not that sold on Sanchez and if Cassel is comparable to Sanchez, then Maualuga means nothing to me.

This post is ludicrous. When did Sanchez and Maualuga end up on the same NFL team? Was there a trade today that I'm currently unaware of?

chiefzilla1501
11-21-2009, 01:41 PM
This post is ludicrous. When did Sanchez and Maualuga end up on the same NFL team? Was there a trade today that I'm currently unaware of?

The argument is that if the Chiefs didn't use a second on Cassel, they would have or should have used a first on Sanchez. Therefore, you draft Sanchez, you have a second to use on Maualuga. I know everybody has their opinions on this and people know where I stand, so I'm not going to promote a thread swerve. But let's be honest, for years the evaluation will always be Tyson Jackson + Cassel vs. Sanchez + Maualuga. If you don't like Maualuga, you can fill in the blank with another early second rounder.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 01:45 PM
Hali's best production in a 43 was only when the opposition had to account for that certain RE too. Hali's doing surprisingly well in the new scheme without that luxury. The two situations cannot easily be compared.

What?

This is laughable.

Tamba Hali has 19 solo tackles and 3.5 sacks in 9 games.

In the 4-3, he averaged 43 tackles and 6 sacks.

He's putting up roughly the same exact numbers which IIRC, caused a majority of members to refer to him as a bust.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 01:47 PM
The argument is that if the Chiefs didn't use a second on Cassel, they would have or should have used a first on Sanchez. Therefore, you draft Sanchez, you have a second to use on Maualuga. I know everybody has their opinions on this and people know where I stand, so I'm not going to promote a thread swerve. But let's be honest, for years the evaluation will always be Tyson Jackson + Cassel vs. Sanchez + Maualuga. If you don't like Maualuga, you can fill in the blank with another early second rounder.

Well, the Chiefs didn't HAVE to spend the #3 on Sanchez and if Herm had stayed, I'm almost positive he would have stuck with Thigpen and Croyle for another year. In that case, I believe they would have taken Maualuga in the second and either Orapko, Jesus or Crabtree with the #3 overall.

It really doesn't matter because it never happened.

Raised On Riots
11-21-2009, 02:03 PM
Well, the Chiefs didn't HAVE to spend the #3 on Sanchez and if Herm had stayed, I'm almost positive he would have stuck with Thigpen and Croyle for another year. In that case, I believe they would have taken Maualuga in the second and either Orapko, Jesus or Crabtree with the #3 overall.

It really doesn't matter because it never happened.

Exactly. And though I see the point he's driving at, unless Sanchez and Rey are a package deal, you can't compare results.

ChiefsCountry
11-21-2009, 02:14 PM
Well, the Chiefs didn't HAVE to spend the #3 on Sanchez and if Herm had stayed, I'm almost positive he would have stuck with Thigpen and Croyle for another year. In that case, I believe they would have taken Maualuga in the second and either Orapko, Jesus or Crabtree with the #3 overall.

It really doesn't matter because it never happened.

I think Herm takes Sanchez, a 1st round rookie QB gives you more time especially in a full out youth rebuild.
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ThunderChief
11-21-2009, 02:39 PM
The real question is: How much time do GMs have until they're accorded success or bust status? Same with head coaches? GMs seem to have an extra year or two on their watch but in the end, they are all graded.

How long? In this win now era, I say 2 years for head coaches, 3 for GMs.

Frankie
11-21-2009, 04:36 PM
What?

This is laughable.

Tamba Hali has 19 solo tackles and 3.5 sacks in 9 games.

In the 4-3, he averaged 43 tackles and 6 sacks.

He's putting up roughly the same exact numbers which IIRC, caused a majority of members to refer to him as a bust.

And I have NEVER been part of that "majority." Actually quite the contrary.

BossChief
11-21-2009, 05:18 PM
As for Gonzalez, he only wanted out after it had been determined that Haley & Pioli took over.

I swear I remember him asking to be traded all the way back to 07.

milkman
11-21-2009, 05:42 PM
What?

This is laughable.

Tamba Hali has 19 solo tackles and 3.5 sacks in 9 games.

In the 4-3, he averaged 43 tackles and 6 sacks.

He's putting up roughly the same exact numbers which IIRC, caused a majority of members to refer to him as a bust.

Throw out the third year.

If he continues to play RDE, his numbers would have continued to be suck ass as they did in his thrid year.

His first two years at LDE were respectable, and the reason his average numbers don't suck.

He's on par right now (without doing the exact math) to get around 5.5-6 sacks 40 tackles.

Those are pretty pedestrian numbers for a ROLB.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 06:06 PM
Throw out the third year.

If he continues to play RDE, his numbers would have continued to be suck ass as they did in his thrid year.

His first two years at LDE were respectable, and the reason his average numbers don't suck.

He's on par right now (without doing the exact math) to get around 5.5-6 sacks 40 tackles.

Those are pretty pedestrian numbers for a ROLB.

I agree.

Hali would benefit greatly from better players at the other three linebacking positions but that isn't going to happen until they draft and develop those positions.

By that time, Hali will probably have been shown the door.

DaneMcCloud
11-21-2009, 06:07 PM
I swear I remember him asking to be traded all the way back to 07.

I don't remember him asking to be traded in 2007. Regardless, he's the one that signed the big contract. He's the one that said he wanted to end his career as a Chief.

He got what he wanted and to date, other than keeping his seasonal numbers consistent to those is in Kansas City, he's not staring down a championship this season.

milkman
11-21-2009, 06:09 PM
We'll see. Too soon to tell. Personally, I think it all revolves around Sanchez. The Chiefs needed to bring some kind of QB, whether that was Sanchez or Cassel. So the question will become whether Orakpo/Tyson Jackson + Matt Cassel will be greater than Mark Sanchez + Rey Maualuga. Right now that latter is looking better. But frankly, I'm not that sold on Sanchez and if Cassel is comparable to Sanchez, then Maualuga means nothing to me.

I think you are underestimating Mauluga's value.

That Bengal defense is playing as well as it has in years, flying to the ball with attitude and enthusiasm that Mauluga brought to them and infected them with.

It's an intangible that's impossible to quantify, but it was the reason I was higher on him than most.

milkman
11-21-2009, 06:11 PM
I agree.

Hali would benefit greatly from better players at the other three linebacking positions but that isn't going to happen until they draft and develop those positions.

By that time, Hali will probably have been shown the door.

Yes he would, but as I said, he is benefitting from Dorsey's play in front of him, and he should be putting up better numbers now, even without the rest of the surrounding talent.

Raised On Riots
11-21-2009, 06:26 PM
I think you are underestimating Mauluga's value.

That Bengal defense is playing as well as it has in years, flying to the ball with attitude and enthusiasm that Mauluga brought to them and infected them with.

It's an intangible that's impossible to quantify, but it was the reason I was higher on him than most.

:banghead:FUCK!

:banghead:FUCK!

:banghead:FUCK!

:banghead:FUCK!

:banghead:FUCK!