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KC native
12-01-2009, 12:35 PM
A comment by Newphin made me realize that all of our hard on crime tough guys have been strangely silent on the Huckabee pardon of the Seattle cop killer. Hmmmmm, wonder why that is? :hmmm:

I wonder how many threads they would have started if a democrat had pardoned him instead? :hmmm:

mlyonsd
12-01-2009, 12:36 PM
A comment by Newphin made me realize that all of our hard on crime tough guys have been strangely silent on the Huckabee pardon of the Seattle cop killer. Hmmmmm, wonder why that is? :hmmm:

Huckabee is a DA. Always has been.

wild1
12-01-2009, 12:37 PM
I don't feel that anyone with his record should have been given an early release. But I've also read he was released on a legal technicality. I would like to know the specifics before I make a judgment.

Not a Huckabee guy anyway.

KC native
12-01-2009, 12:38 PM
That being said, I don't think it's fair to second guess Huckabee. He pardoned him due to a legitimate issue (being 17 and not having a second shot). Huckabee had no way to know that this guy would have been a habitual criminal at the time.


It does say something about our misguided drug war though. Just think if we had jail space because we didn't send people to jail for drugs and we could afford to not push violent offenders out early to make room for mandatory minimum drug sentences.

mlyonsd
12-01-2009, 12:40 PM
I wonder how many threads they would have started if a democrat had pardoned him instead? :hmmm:

I wonder if it had been a democrat if you'd have started this one?

KC native
12-01-2009, 12:45 PM
I wonder if it had been a democrat if you'd have started this one?

I don't think it would have been necessary. disHonest and company would have been all over it.

Like I said, I don't think it's fair to hang this on Huckabee. I was just commenting on the lack of posts about this by the tough on crime, lock em up and throw away the key crowd.

patteeu
12-01-2009, 01:09 PM
Who are these "hard on crime tough guys" that you're talking about naive, and why would they be focused on Huckabee when he's not running for anything right now and there's a much more obvious target available?

Edit: I see that you've singled out honestchieffan. Has he been unusually tough on politicians who are soft on crime in the past?

blaise
12-01-2009, 01:26 PM
A comment by Newphin made me realize that all of our hard on crime tough guys have been strangely silent on the Huckabee pardon of the Seattle cop killer. Hmmmmm, wonder why that is? :hmmm:

I wonder how many threads they would have started if a democrat had pardoned him instead? :hmmm:

Oh my God, are you suggesting there's hypocrisy right here in the D.C. forum?

KC native
12-01-2009, 01:37 PM
Who are these "hard on crime tough guys" that you're talking about naive, and why would they be focused on Huckabee when he's not running for anything right now and there's a much more obvious target available?

Edit: I see that you've singled out honestchieffan. Has he been unusually tough on politicians who are soft on crime in the past?

I didn't single him out. He was just the first one that came to mind but there are plenty of the "lock them up and throw away the key" types out here.

Radar Chief
12-01-2009, 01:38 PM
Oh my God, are you suggesting there's hypocrisy right here in the D.C. forum?

:eek: *Gasp* Who knew?

Baby Lee
12-01-2009, 01:39 PM
Yes, because we all hope in our secret places that Huckabee will be our next president.

I haven't remarked on it, because by the time I heard about it, it had already been posted in the relevant thread. But FTR, I hope it ends his ambitions, not that it necessarily should, but because I want his ambitions on the presidency over for once and for all.

Socially conservative and fiscally liberal means there's precious little with which I agree with him, decent guy or not.

At this point, I'll take small government types whatever their ancillary hangups on the issues. Since the big government religious right have demonstrated 1) it's not enough to be respected, their word has to hold the day every time, and 2) they aren't sufficient to coalesce a majority any more, they can go wander for a while and regain their bearings.

blaise
12-01-2009, 01:52 PM
I didn't single him out. He was just the first one that came to mind but there are plenty of the "lock them up and throw away the key" types out here.

It sounds like those people were right then.

patteeu
12-01-2009, 02:30 PM
I didn't single him out. He was just the first one that came to mind but there are plenty of the "lock them up and throw away the key" types out here.

Like who? That was the original question. I just don't remember a lot of major conflict in this forum between lock-em-up types and let-criminals-roam-free types. About the closest to it that I can remember are the tazer cases where we have some omg-police-brutality types and some give-the-cops-a-break types. :shrug:

NewChief
12-01-2009, 02:40 PM
By the way, in case you want an entire history of Huck's pardons:

http://salon.com/news/mike_huckabee/index.html?story=/opinion/conason/2009/11/30/mike_huckabee
Mike Huckabee's fatally bad judgment
Brutality by another Huck-pardoned criminal suggests the 2012 GOP hopeful listened more to pastors than prosecutors

By Joe Conason

Dec. 01, 2009 |

If clemency for Maurice Clemmons -- now the fugitive suspect in the shooting deaths of four police officers -- were the only fatal error committed by Mike Huckabee as governor of Arkansas, he might be able to shift blame to the state's law enforcement system and even run for president again in 2012. Yet the Clemmons commutation that he granted nine years ago is only one among several cases that raise serious questions about Huckabee's judgment.

On Sunday morning, Clemmons is alleged to have walked into a coffee shop in Parkland, Wash., a town south of Seattle, and shot the officers without provocation or warning. Reportedly hit in the torso by return fire from one of the cops who later died, he escaped and reportedly remains at large.

Having accumulated five felony convictions in Arkansas and at least eight felony charges in Washington, according to the Seattle Times, Clemmons was undoubtedly a danger to the community who ought to have been returned to prison long ago by law enforcement authorities. Only days before the police shooting, he was released on $150,000 bail from a jail in Pierce County, Wash., where he was incarcerated on charges of raping a child.

As Huckabee suggested in a statement released on Monday, courts and law enforcement agencies in Washington should probably share the blame for Sunday's carnage. "Should he be found to be responsible for this horrible tragedy, " the statement said, referring to Clemmons, "it will be the result of a series of failures in the criminal justice system in both Arkansas and Washington State."

In short, Huckabee was arguing, the killings attributed to Clemmons were not Huckabee's fault. Certainly they were not his fault alone. But this incident has revived memories of other decisions he made that later led to terrible consequences. The damage to his political future will hinge on how deeply news organizations now delve into those cases -- and the bizarre faith-based rationale behind his use of the clemency and pardon powers of the governor.

Huckabee has proudly declared on many occasions that he disdains the separation of church and state, insisting that his strict Baptist piety should serve as the bedrock of public policy. Nowhere in his record as governor was the influence of religious zeal felt more heavily than in the distribution of pardons and commutations, as his own explanations have indicated. During those years he granted more commutations and pardons than any governor during the previous four decades, many of them surely justified as a response to excessive penalties under the state's draconian narcotics laws. But others were deeply controversial, especially because so many of his acts of mercy appeared to depend on interventions by fellow Baptist preachers and by inmate professions of renewed Christian faith.

No doubt word spread among the prison population that the affable governor was vulnerable to appeals from convicts who claimed to be born again. Clemmons too was among those who benefited from Huckabee's tendency to believe such pious testimonials. "I come from a very good Christian family and I was raised much better than my actions speak," he explained in his clemency application in 2000. "I'm still ashamed to this day for the shame my stupid involvement in these crimes brought upon my family's name ... I have never done anything good for God, but I've prayed for him to grant me in his compassion the grace to make a start. Now, I'm humbly appealing to you for a brand new start."

Surely the most notorious instance of misplaced mercy involved Wayne Dumond, a rapist and murdered now deceased, who was originally sent to prison in Arkansas for raping a distant cousin of Bill Clinton. During Clinton's presidency the Dumond case became an obsession among certain right-wing pundits and politicians, who insisted that Dumond had been framed and brutalized by the "Clinton machine." When Huckabee became governor, he supported a parole for Dumond, winning applause from the Republican right -- until the former prisoner raped and killed a young woman in Missouri. Dumond later died in prison, under suspicion that he had murdered at least one other woman after his Arkansas release -- a tragic outcome for which Huckabee has repeatedly tried to blame others, including his two Democratic predecessors in the statehouse.

The real engine behind Dumond's release, however, was a Baptist minister and ultra-conservative ideologue named Jay Cole, who also happened to be a friend of Huckabee. Cole would tell the governor about his visits with the supposedly innocent Dumond, when the minister and the prisoner would read the Bible and pray together.

Perhaps the worst instance of that same syndrome, chronicled in detail by Arkansas journalists, concerned an Air Force sergeant named Glen Green, who was sentenced to prison for life after confessing that he had raped and killed a teenage girl. After beating the woman with nunchucks, he violated her almost lifeless body, ran over her with his car and buried her in a swamp. But yet another preacher friend of Huckabee's named Rev. Johnny Jackson somehow persuaded the governor that this incredibly brutal killing had been an "accident" -- and that Green had repented, come to Jesus and therefore should be freed.

Two years ago, I noted that Huckabee knew almost nothing about the Green case beyond what his preacher pal had told him. He consulted neither the prosecutor nor the victim's family, and overruled the dissent of his own parole board. After he announced that Green would be released, the furious public reaction forced him to reverse the decision. Yet he continued to release murderers and other violent criminals despite angry dissent from local prosecutors.

Huckabee granted mercy to prisoners whom he chanced to meet, to prisoners who had personal connections to him or his family, and especially to prisoners who were vouchsafed to him by the pastors he had befriended during his years as a Baptist minister and denominational leader. Among the thugs who benefited from his mercy was a robber who beat an old man to death with a lead pipe.

During the 2008 campaign, Huckabee's arrogance and stupidity mostly escaped the full scrutiny of the national press corps, in part because his stint as a contender was so brief. But next time, if there is a next time, he should get no such free pass -- and his claims to divine guidance ought to be thoroughly debunked.

-- By Joe Conason

blaise
12-01-2009, 02:52 PM
Like who? That was the original question. I just don't remember a lot of major conflict in this forum between lock-em-up types and let-criminals-roam-free types. About the closest to it that I can remember are the tazer cases where we have some omg-police-brutality types and some give-the-cops-a-break types. :shrug:

Yeah, but what about all the pro-Huckabee talk that's been rampant here? I mean, it's Huckabee this and Huckabee that every day around here. They should have renamed this place racists, morons, and Huckabee supporters. Where are those people? HUH?

KC native
12-01-2009, 02:53 PM
Yeah, but what about all the pro-Huckabee talk that's been rampant here? I mean, it's Huckabee this and Huckabee that every day around here. They should have renamed this place racists, morons, and Huckabee supporters. Where are those people? HUH?

ROFL

patteeu
12-01-2009, 03:44 PM
Yeah, but what about all the pro-Huckabee talk that's been rampant here? I mean, it's Huckabee this and Huckabee that every day around here. They should have renamed this place racists, morons, and Huckabee supporters. Where are those people? HUH?

LMAO

jjjayb
12-01-2009, 04:50 PM
A comment by Newphin made me realize that all of our hard on crime tough guys have been strangely silent on the Huckabee pardon of the Seattle cop killer. Hmmmmm, wonder why that is? :hmmm:

I wonder how many threads they would have started if a democrat had pardoned him instead? :hmmm:

He was an idiot for pardoning him. Period.

Mr. Kotter
12-01-2009, 06:17 PM
He was an idiot for pardoning him. Period.

Pretty much.

But that would detract from the drama queen histrionics of KCN, wouldn't it?

:shrug:

Mr. Kotter
12-01-2009, 10:53 PM
Like who? That was the original question. I just don't remember a lot of major conflict in this forum between lock-em-up types and let-criminals-roam-free types. About the closest to it that I can remember are the tazer cases where we have some omg-police-brutality types and some give-the-cops-a-break types. :shrug:

Again, you are detracting from KCN's attempt to demagogue a real "non-issue."

It's a popular tactic from ideologues and partisans; and you are not helping his case.

IGNORE. :rolleyes:

Norman Einstein
12-02-2009, 03:38 AM
Yes, because we all hope in our secret places that Huckabee will be our next president.

I haven't remarked on it, because by the time I heard about it, it had already been posted in the relevant thread. But FTR, I hope it ends his ambitions, not that it necessarily should, but because I want his ambitions on the presidency over for once and for all.

Socially conservative and fiscally liberal means there's precious little with which I agree with him, decent guy or not.

At this point, I'll take small government types whatever their ancillary hangups on the issues. Since the big government religious right have demonstrated 1) it's not enough to be respected, their word has to hold the day every time, and 2) they aren't sufficient to coalesce a majority any more, they can go wander for a while and regain their bearings.

So you are OK with pardons as presidents leave office? I recommend you review Clintons pardons and communtations when he left office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton

KC native
12-02-2009, 08:47 AM
Again, you are detracting from KCN's attempt to demagogue a real "non-issue."

It's a popular tactic from ideologues and partisans; and you are not helping his case.

IGNORE. :rolleyes:

I felt it was a reasonable hypothetical. Do you honestly think if Bill Clinton had pardoned that guy there wouldn't be 10 different threads about it?

Cannibal
12-02-2009, 09:02 AM
I felt it was a reasonable hypothetical. Do you honestly think if Bill Clinton had pardoned that guy there wouldn't be 10 different threads about it?

You are correct. The nutters are very selective with their outrage, always have been.

patteeu
12-02-2009, 09:10 AM
I felt it was a reasonable hypothetical. Do you honestly think if Bill Clinton had pardoned that guy there wouldn't be 10 different threads about it?

Don't you see at least a slight difference between a guy who close to half of us voted for or supported doing something like this (i.e. the POTUS) and a guy who almost none of us ever cared about for doing it (i.e. the governor of a small state other than Missouri or Kansas)?

Very few people here are big Huckabee fans. Most of us don't care about the guy at all. You just picked a really bad time to play the hypocrisy card. I'm going to have to fail you for picking the wrong battle at the wrong time.

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/fail-owned-drink-happiness-fail.jpg

KC native
12-02-2009, 09:14 AM
Don't you see at least a slight difference between a guy who close to half of us voted for or supported doing something like this (i.e. the POTUS) and a guy who almost none of us ever cared about for doing it (i.e. the governor of a small state other than Missouri or Kansas)?

Very few people here are big Huckabee fans. Most of us don't care about the guy at all. You just picked a really bad time to play the hypocrisy card. I'm going to have to fail you for picking the wrong battle at the wrong time.

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/fail-owned-drink-happiness-fail.jpg

I really wasn't trying to start a battle. I just found it interesting that no one had even commented on it out here especially considering the opionated types that populate DC.

Mr. Kotter
12-02-2009, 09:21 AM
I felt it was a reasonable hypothetical. Do you honestly think if Bill Clinton had pardoned that guy there wouldn't be 10 different threads about it?

Yeah, comparing a President who, arguably, abused his pardon power more than any other....to a former governor of a small state who doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever really sniffing the Presidency....yeah, that's a reasonable hypothetical alright.

:rolleyes:

KC native
12-02-2009, 09:36 AM
Yeah, comparing a President who, arguably, abused his pardon power more than any other....to a former governor of a small state who doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever really sniffing the Presidency....yeah, that's a reasonable hypothetical alright.

:rolleyes:

:spock: In the initial hypothetical there is no mention of Clinton, simply a generic democrat. After the discussion had progressed I threw that in there for name recognition. You can put any democratic name in there that you want and it stills serves the same purpose.

You do know that I'm not a member of either party and believe the two party system to be one of our biggest problems?

patteeu
12-02-2009, 09:42 AM
:spock: In the initial hypothetical there is no mention of Clinton, simply a generic democrat. After the discussion had progressed I threw that in there for name recognition. You can put any democratic name in there that you want and it stills serves the same purpose.

You do know that I'm not a member of either party and believe the two party system to be one of our biggest problems?

Maybe comparing Huckabee to someone like Tom Vilsack (governor of Iowa who failed in his 2008 POTUS bid) would have been more appropriate. Do you think anyone would have had their hair on fire if Vilsack would have been the guy who helped get this guy released?

Mr. Kotter
12-02-2009, 09:44 AM
:spock: In the initial hypothetical there is no mention of Clinton, simply a generic democrat. After the discussion had progressed I threw that in there for name recognition. You can put any democratic name in there that you want and it stills serves the same purpose.

You do know that I'm not a member of either party and believe the two party system to be one of our biggest problems?

I was responding to your subsequent introduction of Clinton into the topic....which is a reasonable inference.

And, yeah....I know you are a socialist--and not a Republican or Democrat.

;)

KC native
12-02-2009, 09:44 AM
Maybe comparing Huckabee to someone like Tom Vilsack (governor of Iowa who failed in his 2008 POTUS bid) would have been more appropriate. Do you think anyone would have had their hair on fire if Vilsack would have been the guy who helped get this guy released?

Yes which is why I simply put democrat in the OP.

KC native
12-02-2009, 09:45 AM
I was responding to your subsequent introduction of Clinton into the topic....which is a reasonable inference.

And, yeah....I know you are a socialist--and not a Republican or Democrat.

;)

Are you an Austi-throwanylabelagainstthewallandhopeitsticks-an now? :D

Mr. Kotter
12-02-2009, 09:48 AM
Are you an Austi-throwanylabelagainstthewallandhopeitsticks-an now? :D

FTR, BEP is not one of my dups. I've had to quit...

Heh. :p

patteeu
12-02-2009, 09:49 AM
Yes which is why I simply put democrat in the OP.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I don't think there's much chance at all that we'd have seen a big tough-on-crime jihad against Vilsack if he'd have been the relevant politico (except possibly from some of our Iowans who may already have a beef against the guy).

KC native
12-02-2009, 10:02 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree then because I don't think there's much chance at all that we'd have seen a big tough-on-crime jihad against Vilsack if he'd have been the relevant politico (except possibly from some of our Iowans who may already have a beef against the guy).

Agreed

FishingRod
12-02-2009, 10:03 AM
If Obama, or maybe Ron Paul had been the one to Pardon this guy there would have been a great deal of bashing. If it were a candidate with a similar amount of popular support as Huckabee it would probably generate a similar amount of scorn as has been expressed in this case. Huckabee isn't important enough for all the fake outrage that is expressed from both sides when someone that is actually influential screws up. Huckbee is just not relevant enough to get everyone's panty's in a wad.

NewChief
12-02-2009, 10:42 AM
I do think that if this had been a Democratic governor (any of them) who had at least a miniscule amount of prominence on the national stage, then the other side would have made political hay out of it (just as the Left is trying to with this one by saying that Huckabee is a religious kook who pardons anyone who is "born again").

The difference is that "soft on crime" is a common point of attack on Dems. So, a Democratic governor acting in this way would help to make that argument. Soft on crime is not a traditional attack on Republicans. As such, this doesn't really fit into an existing political narrative, so it's not getting the same amount of play. You will notice, though, that the play it is getting from the Left does fit into an existing political narrative: the Republican Right are religious nuts who will pardon born again Christians.

dirk digler
12-02-2009, 11:41 AM
I felt it was a reasonable hypothetical. Do you honestly think if Bill Clinton had pardoned that guy there wouldn't be 10 different threads about it?

Of course KCN. I thought about starting this thread myself saying the DC has lost it's burst. If a Dem would have done this the coward known as hcf would have started multiple threads blaming it all on Obama.

patteeu
12-02-2009, 12:16 PM
Of course KCN. I thought about starting this thread myself saying the DC has lost it's burst. If a Dem would have done this the coward known as hcf would have started multiple threads blaming it all on Obama.

DC hasn't lost it's burst in one respect. We can always count on you guys to find an us versus them angle, even on topics that seem to be shoe-ins for unity.

dirk digler
12-02-2009, 01:28 PM
DC hasn't lost it's burst in one respect. We can always count on you guys to find an us versus them angle, even on topics that seem to be shoe-ins for unity.

I gave up on that dream long ago when a certain somebody decided to drop the n-word 100 times in 1 thread yet there were people ready and willing to defend him.

Oh well dreams have to die some time I guess.

Iowanian
12-02-2009, 01:29 PM
Soooooo


you're a bagga-douche, kcnaive

KC native
12-02-2009, 02:19 PM
Soooooo


you're a bagga-douche, kcnaive

Damn for someone that doesn't give a shit about me, you sure seem to visit every thread I start. You sure you don't have anything to confess to?

Iowanian
12-02-2009, 03:14 PM
I'll confess that I think you're a twat.

I think maybe you have something to confess....

Sprint finally gave me... 12-01-2009 10:19 AM KC native WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!! More bitching from the resident tough guy. BTW what do Pete's nuts taste like?
BCS Here we come!!!!Go... 11-28-2009 10:16 PM KC native wow, yet another example of how you're a small dicked pussaaaayyy.
Best Buy Black Friday... 11-25-2009 01:24 PM KC native right back at ya. Maybe you can get religion from your walmart cashiers.
NBC cancels "Green... 11-24-2009 02:21 PM KC native once again you show how much of a simple moron you are. run along now ankle biter
Fox News exposed using... 11-20-2009 11:06 AM KC native Hey at least he tries. You're still stuck in the closet.
Obama Admin Slashed... 11-17-2009 09:32 AM KC native Nice to see you're still following me around trying to hump my leg. You ready to come out the closet yet?
Medical marijuana-... 10-22-2009 02:29 PM KC native HEYOOOO more gay jokes from Io-allithinkaboutispenis-wanian
Someone tell me why we... 08-20-2009 02:41 PM KC native It's better than doing it for free like you.
KC Native vs. Donger -... 08-14-2009 09:06 AM KC native How about one who sucks the penis? You seem to like the taste of my dick because you won't take it out of your mouth


There are probably 10 more, most also curious about the taste of man stick...like these many unrelated to anything to do with you, except that you're a d-bag. dick, balls, taste, dick balls taste, closet, gay, leg hump dick repeat, repeat repeat.

KC native
12-02-2009, 03:15 PM
I'll confess that I think you're a twat.

Then why do you waste so much energy and time following me around on CP?

Iowanian
12-02-2009, 03:21 PM
You're douche-tastic!

KC native
12-02-2009, 03:22 PM
You're douche-tastic!

Then what does that say about your interests? :hmmm:

patteeu
12-04-2009, 04:23 PM
I gave up on that dream long ago when a certain somebody decided to drop the n-word 100 times in 1 thread yet there were people ready and willing to defend him.

Oh well dreams have to die some time I guess.

Yeah, (a) that's not an accurate characterization, and (b) that was another case of people like you being divisive by accusing people of being racist when the evidence didn't support the charge not of me being divisive for criticizing your attack.