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petegz28
12-02-2009, 10:44 PM
Leaked e-mails allegedly undermining climate change science should be treated as a criminal matter, Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) said Wednesday afternoon.

Boxer, the top Democrat on the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, said that the recently released e-mails, showing scientists allegedly overstating the case for climate change, should be treated as a crime.

"You call it 'Climategate'; I call it 'E-mail-theft-gate,'" she said during a committee meeting. "Whatever it is, the main issue is, Are we facing global warming or are we not? I'm looking at these e-mails, that, even though they were stolen, are now out in the public."

The e-mails, from scientists at the University of East Anglia, were obtained through hacking. The messages showed the director of the university's Climate Research Unit discussing ways to strengthen the unit's case for global warming. Climate change skeptics have seized on the e-mails, arguing that they demonstrate manipulation in environmental science.

Boxer said her committee may hold hearings into the matter as its top Republican, Sen. James Inhofe (Okla.), has asked for, but that a criminal probe would be part of any such hearings.

"We may well have a hearing on this, we may not. We may have a briefing for senators, we may not," Boxer said. "Part of our looking at this will be looking at a criminal activity which could have well been coordinated.

"This is a crime," Boxer said.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/70249-boxer-hacked-climategate-emails-may-face-criminal-probe

petegz28
12-02-2009, 10:44 PM
It really says a lot about Boxer when she is more worried about the fact the e-mails were stolen as opposed to their content.

stevieray
12-02-2009, 10:50 PM
I'm starting to think this woman did a lot of LSD in the sixities.

BigChiefFan
12-02-2009, 10:54 PM
How is supposed fraud and racketeering, not worthy of pursuing charges? Bring the justice swiftly.

Guru
12-02-2009, 11:25 PM
ROFL

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 12:45 AM
Barbara is head of the Environment and Public Works Committee. Barbara stands to lose a great deal of power and prestige if data is considered less threatening to world occupancy. Poor Barbara.

Her daughter married Hillary's brother, and her husband in the Teamster's back pocket as a worker's compensation attorney.

Project Score Card gave Barbara a 83% approval rating from the ACLU and a 5% approval rating from Americans for Tax Reform.

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 06:23 AM
No crime in Washington Babs?

RedNeckRaider
12-03-2009, 06:27 AM
LMAO this is like a someone telling the police that they were robbed of their weed.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 06:34 AM
It really says a lot about Boxer when she is more worried about the fact the e-mails were stolen as opposed to their content.Boxer is a tool and a fool. Pelosi's buddy in the Senate. Two of the same. I'm not a tree hugger and think we should have control over our enviornment and if a snail darter has to die every once in a while...welllll being at the top of the food chain has its advantages. But, that being said...regardless of the content. If those emails were confidential or were sent through a government email account and were leaked to the press or given to someone outside of the government, that is a felony.

petegz28
12-03-2009, 06:42 AM
Boxer is a tool and a fool. Pelosi's buddy in the Senate. Two of the same. I'm not a tree hugger and think we should have control over our enviornment and if a snail darter has to die every once in a while...welllll being at the top of the food chain has its advantages. But, that being said...regardless of the content. If those emails were confidential or were sent through a government email account and were leaked to the press or given to someone outside of the government, that is a felony.

So is leaking top secret info to the NY Times but I didn't see her too worried about that.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 06:47 AM
So is leaking top secret info to the NY Times but I didn't see her too worried about that.They are both felony's and should be prosecuted. Secrets should remain secret. It's not up to each individual to make policy or undermine a policy based on their own personal beliefs. Thats part of the deal you make to gain access to "secret" information. And if you can't hold up your end of the deal, then get out. Releasing "secret" information on your own, no matter how noble you think the cause is a traitorous act. IMHO.

mikey23545
12-03-2009, 07:03 AM
Let's not forget convening a tribunal to make all the scientists (and politicians) who have falsified data stand before the world and face justice. They have caused trillions of dollars of damage to the world economy and untold suffering to large and small businesses and the people who work for them. They have fraudulently acquired wealth and power at the expense of hard-working and long-suffering taxpayers.

The ringleaders should face capital punishment. The ghosts of Nuremberg are calling.

wild1
12-03-2009, 08:32 AM
If someone broke a law, then prosecute them. That includes hackers, but it also includes defrauding the government out of billions in research dollars and conspiring to defraud it of trillions more.

Madoff who?

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 08:38 AM
Boxer is a tool and a fool. Pelosi's buddy in the Senate. Two of the same. I'm not a tree hugger and think we should have control over our enviornment and if a snail darter has to die every once in a while...welllll being at the top of the food chain has its advantages. But, that being said...regardless of the content. If those emails were confidential or were sent through a government email account and were leaked to the press or given to someone outside of the government, that is a felony.

there is no hacker. It's damn near impossible to break into a network and get gigs of exchange databases. The peson who leaked thes already had access. I'd say a 90 percent chance it was an inside job. Boxer is ight though... It is a crime. In another country.

KC native
12-03-2009, 08:39 AM
Let's not forget convening a tribunal to make all the scientists (and politicians) who have falsified data stand before the world and face justice. They have caused trillions of dollars of damage to the world economy and untold suffering to large and small businesses and the people who work for them. They have fraudulently acquired wealth and power at the expense of hard-working and long-suffering taxpayers.

The ringleaders should face capital punishment. The ghosts of Nuremberg are calling.

:spock:

GODWIN'S LAW FTW! Are you seriously equating scientists that study climatology to Nazis?

RINGLEADER
12-03-2009, 08:44 AM
Boxer agree with the information = whistleblower.
Boxer disagree with the information = crime.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 09:12 AM
there is no hacker. It's damn near impossible to break into a network and get gigs of exchange databases. The peson who leaked thes already had access. I'd say a 90 percent chance it was an inside job. Boxer is ight though... It is a crime. In another country.Inside job or not, it's a felony.

mikey23545
12-03-2009, 09:17 AM
:spock:

GODWIN'S LAW FTW! Are you seriously equating scientists that study climatology to Nazis?

Crimes against humanity=Crimes against humanity.

Oh, and go f@ck yourself.

KC native
12-03-2009, 09:29 AM
Crimes against humanity=Crimes against humanity.

Oh, and go f@ck yourself.

ROFL Ah that's good. Scientists studying the earth's climates are engaging in crimes against humanity. Thanks for the laugh.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 09:43 AM
I'm starting to think this woman did a lot of LSD in the sixities.

Don't say that. You're giving LSD a bad name. She's just an idiot. A complete f'ing idiot. I shouldn't say that, it does a disservice to idiots. She's her own, unique brand of stupid.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 09:48 AM
How is supposed fraud and racketeering, not worthy of pursuing charges? Bring the justice swiftly.

To be fair, a FOIA request was met with the desturction of the data being requested so it appears illegal means was the only means for getting at this "scientific" data.

What absolutely blows my f'ing mind is that this scientific data even required a FOIA request to get at it. After all I have been assured on myriad of occasions that there has been "scientific consensus" and the studies were "peer reviewed". Why the f!#k is it then that it is necessary to file a FOIA request for the data to examine them by...PEERS? Why do they think, in any case, what so f'ing ever, it is OK to destroy the data used to produce the results that show earth is absolutely doomed? This wreaks and the entire debate should be put on hold, no bills passed, no regulatory measures taken until SOUND science, transparent science produces some results that are valid and reproductable. Then and only then can this debate on AGW, or GW at all go forward.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 09:50 AM
ROFL Ah that's good. Scientists studying the earth's climates are engaging in crimes against humanity. Thanks for the laugh.

They would be dooming the most poverty stricken portions of the earth into a hole of poverty from which they would have no hope of escaping. Currently India is experiencing their industrial revolution due to the availability of cheap and reliable energy. The fundamental fact that energy fuels economies escapes the left and their desire that we go back to eking out a meager living in caves and yurts and this will somehow unite humanity is an absolute insult to my intelligence.

The environmental movement has killed more people than Stalin ever hoped to by simply having DDT banned. Rachel Carson is worse than Stalin.

KC native
12-03-2009, 09:52 AM
They would be dooming the most poverty stricken portions of the earth into a hole of poverty from which they would have no hope of escaping. Currently India is experiencing their industrial revolution due to the availability of cheap and reliable energy. The fundamental fact that energy fuels economies escapes the left and their desire that we go back to eking out a meager living in caves and yurts and this will somehow unite humanity is an absolute insult to my intelligence.

The environmental movement has killed more people than Stalin ever hoped to by simply having DDT banned. Rachel Carson is worse than Stalin.

ROFL Are you serious? How about some proof to back up those grandiose claims?

wild1
12-03-2009, 10:01 AM
ROFL Are you serious? How about some proof to back up those grandiose claims?

Number of people who died of malaria since Silent Spring >>> number of people who ever died from DDT, if any.

jjjayb
12-03-2009, 10:03 AM
ROFL Are you serious? How about some proof to back up those grandiose claims?

Pay attention to the bolded part. A simple google search will yield you all the info you need on the cases of Malaria deaths before and after DDT use.

There are some 300 to 500 million reported cases of malaria each year, 90% occurring in Africa. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), about two and a half million people die of the disease each year, again, mostly in Africa, the majority of them poor children. Indeed, malaria is the second leading cause of death in Africa (after AIDS) and the number one killer of children there (with about one child being lost to malaria every thirty seconds). Many medical historians believe malaria has killed more people than any other disease in history, including the Black Plague, and may have contributed to the collapse of the Roman Empire. Malaria was common in places as far north as Boston and England until the twentieth century. Two thirds of the world lived in malaria-ridden areas prior to the 1940s.

That devastation all but stopped during the time that DDT use was widespread, around 1950-1970. Indeed, the discovery that DDT could kill malarial mosquitoes earned Dr. Paul MŸller the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1948. DDT, a chemical pesticide synthesized by MŸller in the late 1930s, was initially used against houseflies, beetles, various farm pests, and typhus-carrying lice on the bodies of World War II soldiers and civilians. America and England soon became the major producers of the chemical, using it to fight malaria-carrying mosquitoes, especially in tropical regions.

In all, DDT has been conservatively credited with saving some 100 million lives.

Europe and North America have not harbored malarial mosquitoes since the 1940s. In one of the most miraculous public health developments in history, Greece saw malaria cases drop from 1-2 million cases a year to close to zero, also thanks to DDT. Meanwhile, in India, malaria deaths went from nearly a million in 1945 to only a few thousand in 1960. In what is now Sri Lanka, malaria cases went from 2,800,000 in 1948, before the introduction of DDT, down to 17 in 1964 — then, tragically, back up to 2,500,000 by 1969, five years after DDT use was discontinued there.

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 10:10 AM
Inside job or not, it's a felony.

Sure, but I wouldn't convict anyone for it if I were on a jury.

BigChiefFan
12-03-2009, 10:12 AM
They could grant amnesty to the "insider", in exchange for information. Hacker is a misnomer.

Brock
12-03-2009, 10:15 AM
Inside job or not, it's a felony.

Exposing corruption is only a felony when it hurts your political cause. If someone were leaking emails from the Bush administration that showed corruption, you'd be all over it like stink on shit.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 10:19 AM
Exposing corruption is only a felony when it hurts your political cause. If someone were leaking emails from the Bush administration that showed corruption, you'd be all over it like stink on shit.On this issue I'm non partisan. It's part of my job, how I live my life.

KC native
12-03-2009, 10:20 AM
Number of people who died of malaria since Silent Spring >>> number of people who ever died from DDT, if any.

Wow, seriously? You're blaming the ban on DDT in the US for millions of people's deaths?

wild1
12-03-2009, 10:21 AM
Exposing corruption is only a felony when it hurts your political cause. If someone were leaking emails from the Bush administration that showed corruption, you'd be all over it like stink on shit.

I am guessing that's true.

Brock
12-03-2009, 10:22 AM
On this issue I'm non partisan. It's part of my job, how I live my life.

You'll have to forgive me, I don't believe you. Blowing the whistle on corruption is necessary, whether it's legal or not.

wild1
12-03-2009, 10:22 AM
Wow, seriously? You're blaming the ban on DDT in the US for millions of people's deaths?

The environmentalist movement led a paranoia-driven campaign that caused many countries, not just the United States, to outlaw or cease using a chemical that could have prevented a very large number of malaria deaths.

KC native
12-03-2009, 10:24 AM
The environmentalist movement led a paranoia-driven campaign that caused many countries, not just the United States, to outlaw or cease using a chemical that could have prevented a very large number of malaria deaths.

You're aware that they spray DDT in disease control situations in other countries now right?

Also, why aren't you blaming a lack of access to Malaria medicines for those deaths as well? Guess that doesn't fit your political narrative :shrug:

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 10:37 AM
You're aware that they spray DDT in disease control situations in other countries now right?

Also, why aren't you blaming a lack of access to Malaria medicines for those deaths as well? Guess that doesn't fit your political narrative :shrug:

In violation of the POP treaty? or is this for uses in countries not signing? What pest target do they use this for in the places you claim it is used?

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 10:37 AM
ROFL Are you serious? How about some proof to back up those grandiose claims?

Malaria alone kills about 1,000,000 people per year. DDT's been on a "controlled list for limited vector use" since 1984. 2009-1984=25, 25x1,000,000=25,000,000 Stalin's death count stands around 22,000,000. If we include Yellow Fever (30K/year) and Dengue Fever (15K/year) the Carson's death count goes much higher. We haven't even factored in a number of other mosquito borne illnesses such as encephalitis and West Nile Virus. Therefor Carson's death count is greater than Stalin's. She is worse than Stalin. Bingada bongada boomada.

KC native
12-03-2009, 10:39 AM
Malaria alone kills about 1,000,000 people per year. DDT's been on a "controlled list for limited vector use" since 1984. 2009-1984=25, 25x1,000,000=25,000,000 Stalin's death count stands around 22,000,000. If we include Yellow Fever (30K/year) and Dengue Fever (15K/year) the Carson's death count goes much higher. We haven't even factored in a number of other mosquito borne illnesses such as encephalitis and West Nile Virus. Therefor Carson's death count is greater than Stalin's. She is worse than Stalin. Bingada bongada boomada.

Yes, we've established that malaria kills a lot of people.

Why don't you place equal blame on the pharma companies for lack of access to malaria medicines?

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 10:39 AM
You'll have to forgive me, I don't believe you. Blowing the whistle on corruption is necessary, whether it's legal or not.I uderstand your point of view because you don't really know me except from this board. I've had access to "secret" information for over 5 years now. I would consider it treasonous to release that information.

you can be a whistle blower and expose coruption without releasing "secret" informatio to the public.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 10:40 AM
You're aware that they spray DDT in disease control situations in other countries now right?

Also, why aren't you blaming a lack of access to Malaria medicines for those deaths as well? Guess that doesn't fit your political narrative :shrug:

For "control" situations. Not for eradication which was the initial purpose of the WHO's malaria program. Which was running very successfully until Carson came along.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 10:40 AM
Yes, we've established that malaria kills a lot of people.

Why don't you place equal blame on the pharma companies for lack of access to malaria medicines?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That's why.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 10:43 AM
Back to the point; Carson's fraud and disregard for human life in pursuit of her own glory is just one example in littany of her "disciples" using exactly her playbook in total disregard for the wellbeing of humanity in pursuit of their own glory. Boxer et al are just the most recent in this line of fraudulent science that has come along. Fortunately they were caught. Whether or not any good comes about from exposing their fraud remains to be seen.

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 10:43 AM
Yes, we've established that malaria kills a lot of people.

Why don't you place equal blame on the pharma companies for lack of access to malaria medicines?

What are the medicines that the pharmas wont sell?

wild1
12-03-2009, 10:47 AM
You're aware that they spray DDT in disease control situations in other countries now right?

I am aware that its use is not entirely illegal in epidemic situations, yes.


Also, why aren't you blaming a lack of access to Malaria medicines for those deaths as well? Guess that doesn't fit your political narrative :shrug:

The disease has become resistant to many of the less expensive pharmaceutical options, and the countries where almost all the cases occur can ill-afford such expensive remedies anyway. Pie-in-the-sky problem solving would say, why doesn't the government just hand out antimalarials, but reality says that's never going to happen in such a destitute region as those that have the biggest issues with malaria.

Theraputic treatment is complex depending on the drug, and not simply a matter of giving a kid a pill and driving on to the next village.

A common sense and cost-effective prevention measure would be spraying during epidemic situations, because of the break in the chain of transmission it could provide.

Brock
12-03-2009, 10:50 AM
I uderstand your point of view because you don't really know me except from this board. I've had access to "secret" information for over 5 years now. I would consider it treasonous to release that information.

you can be a whistle blower and expose coruption without releasing "secret" informatio to the public.

Cheating the public out of their tax dollars doesn't deserve to be a secret, and I wouldn't hide behind my security clearance if I knew about it.

BigChiefFan
12-03-2009, 10:52 AM
Cheating the public out of their tax dollars doesn't deserve to be a secret, and I wouldn't hide behind my security clearance if I knew about it.
:clap: Amen, brother.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 10:52 AM
Cheating the public out of their tax dollars doesn't deserve to be a secret, and I wouldn't hide behind my security clearance if I knew about it.

Whistleblower! Whistleblower!

They were all the rage a scant year ago...what happened to their popularity?:spock:

Hydrae
12-03-2009, 11:09 AM
there is no hacker. It's damn near impossible to break into a network and get gigs of exchange databases. The peson who leaked thes already had access. I'd say a 90 percent chance it was an inside job. Boxer is ight though... It is a crime. In another country.

This little factoid seems to have missed the posters here as well as Ms. Boxer.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 11:17 AM
Cheating the public out of their tax dollars doesn't deserve to be a secret, and I wouldn't hide behind my security clearance if I knew about it.
Maybe thats why I have a clearance and you don't....just saying

I'm not supporting keeping quiet about rip offs that are occuring. There are ways to report "stuff" annoymusly within the government apparatus that your paticuliar department has no control over. You don't have to run to the NY times.

Brock
12-03-2009, 11:19 AM
Maybe thats why I have a clearance and you don't....just saying

I don't think a lack of principles has anything to do with why you have your clearance, which you seem to brag about a lot, which doesn't really seem like a thing that a high-level clearance holder would do.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 11:21 AM
LMAO this is like a someone telling the police that they were robbed of their weed.

Nice. Repworthy as the statement perfectly describes the situation

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 11:22 AM
I don't think a lack of principles has anything to do with why you have your clearance, which you seem to brag about a lot, which doesn't really seem like a thing that a high-level clearance holder would do.I'm just a techie, not an analyst or field agent. I can disclose that to whoever I so choose.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 11:23 AM
Inside job or not, it's a felony.

In another nation. When did she become world cop, I thought you guys wanted to stop that perception.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 11:25 AM
In another nation. When did she become world cop, I thought you guys wanted to stop that perception.I'm not condoning or excusing her. I've alrady said she's a tool on par with Pelosi. My opinion of her can't be lower.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 11:26 AM
Yes, we've established that malaria kills a lot of people.

Why don't you place equal blame on the pharma companies for lack of access to malaria medicines?

They don't deserve equal blame - Unless you have some sort of notion they are supposed to supply it for free

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 11:27 AM
What are the medicines that the pharmas wont sell?

Precisely

Brock
12-03-2009, 11:29 AM
I'm just a techie, not an analyst or field agent. I can disclose that to whoever I so choose.

You can, and do, at every opportunity. It doesn't excuse covering up corruption and theft, if you in fact know about it.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 11:31 AM
You can, and do, at every opportunity. It doesn't excuse covering up corruption and theft, if you in fact know about it.I agree with that point and have said so. so why are you still arguing? My only point was that there was other ways to get that information out there other than running to the NY times.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 11:33 AM
I agree with that point and have said so. so why are you still arguing? My only point was that there was other ways to get that information out there other than running to the NY times.

Maybe unless the person thought the billions of dollars garnered could actually threaten their life if reported through normal channels.

Brock
12-03-2009, 11:34 AM
I agree with that point and have said so. so why are you still arguing? My only point was that there was other ways to get that information out there other than running to the NY times.

Who would you have suggested they "run to" with it?

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 11:34 AM
Precisely

He is so far out in deep water and no hope of getting back to shore on this topic. But then, whats new?

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 11:36 AM
Maybe unless the person thought the billions of dollars garnered could actually threaten their life if reported through normal channels.that I'm sure is a realistic possiblity. There are some bad men out there with deep pockets that don't like their cash stream being threatned by someone. It's like testifying against a mobster because you just happen to witness the mob murder. How could you testify against that in open court without endangering everyone you know and love?

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 11:38 AM
that I'm sure is a realistic possiblity. There are some bad men out there with deep pockets that don't like their cash stream being threatned by someone. It's like testifying against a mobster because you just happen to witness the mob murder. How could you testify against that in open court without endangering everyone you know and love?

You release emails to the press instead

Brock
12-03-2009, 11:38 AM
that I'm sure is a realistic possiblity. There are some bad men out there with deep pockets that don't like their cash stream being threatned by someone. It's like testifying against a mobster because you just happen to witness the mob murder. How could you testify against that in open court without endangering everyone you know and love?

Then he's not a traitor?

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 11:39 AM
Then he's not a traitor?

Or she

Mile High Mania
12-03-2009, 11:41 AM
Both parties (the hackers and those creating climate number fraud) should be investigated.

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 11:41 AM
The hackers should be given a Nobel. Get it back from Algore.

wild1
12-03-2009, 11:57 AM
I don't think a lack of principles has anything to do with why you have your clearance, which you seem to brag about a lot, which doesn't really seem like a thing that a high-level clearance holder would do.

Most people who are rejected for 'Secret' are so disposed on the basis of their financial history, not that they have been being judged untrustworthy with national security secrets.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:16 PM
When it was first introduced in World War II, DDT was very effective in reducing malaria morbidity and mortality. The WHO's anti-malaria campaign, which consisted mostly of spraying DDT, was initially very successful as well. For example, in Sri Lanka, the program reduced cases from about 3 million per year before spraying to just 29 in 1964. Thereafter the program was halted to save money, and malaria rebounded to 600,000 cases in 1968 and the first quarter of 1969. The country resumed DDT spraying, but it was largely ineffective because mosquitoes had acquired resistance to the chemical in the interim, presumably because of its continued use in agriculture. The program was forced to switch to malathion, which though more expensive, proved effective.

The evolution of resistance to DDT in mosquitoes has greatly reduced its effectiveness in many parts of the world, and current WHO guidelines require that before the chemical is used in an area, susceptibility of local mosquitoes to DDT must be confirmed. The appearance of DDT-resistance is largely due to its use in agriculture, where it was used in much greater amounts than the relatively small quantities used for disease prevention. According to one study that attempted to quantify the lives saved by banning agricultural uses of DDT and thereby slowing the spread of resistance, "it can be estimated that at current rates each kilo of insecticide added to the environment will generate 105 new cases of malaria."

...

Resistance was noted early in spray campaigns, with Paul Russell, a former head of the Allied Anti-Malaria campaign, observing in 1956 that eradication programs had to be wary of relying on DDT for too long as "resistance has appeared [after] six or seven years." DDT has lost much of its effectiveness in many parts of the world including Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Turkey and Central America, and it has largely been replaced by organophosphate or carbamate insecticides, e.g. malathion or bendiocarb.

Rachel Carson - mass-murderer? No. Anti-environmentalists - idiots.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 12:16 PM
Most people who are rejected for 'Secret' are so disposed on the basis of their financial history, not that they have been being judged untrustworthy with national security secrets.62% are rejected for credit worthiness.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:20 PM
And those of you backing the hackers - I'm quite certain you're against that "report the illegals" law in the other thread.

Brock
12-03-2009, 12:21 PM
And those of you backing the hackers - I'm quite certain you're against that "report the illegals" law in the other thread.

I didnt' read it.

petegz28
12-03-2009, 12:24 PM
And those of you backing the hackers - I'm quite certain you're against that "report the illegals" law in the other thread.

Why should people not report illegals?

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Why should people not report illegals?uhhh they get pissed off and harm your family? Or have their cousins harm the family etc.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:27 PM
Why should people not report illegals?

I'm not saying they shouldn't. But since you don't think criminals should be prosecuted, it stands to reason you must not support a law that will cause more prosecutions.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 12:27 PM
And those of you backing the hackers - I'm quite certain you're against that "report the illegals" law in the other thread.

Hackers in our nation???

Illegals in our nation???

Is this a serious equivocation?

petegz28
12-03-2009, 12:32 PM
I'm not saying they shouldn't. But since you don't think criminals should be prosecuted, it stands to reason you must not support a law that will cause more prosecutions.

Sorry but do you have a point somewhere?

You do realize it is legal for a convicted felon to shoot someone with a stolen gun if it is in self-defense, yes?

Are there other questions to be answered with that? Sure. But that is trivial to the primary point of it all.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 12:36 PM
When it was first introduced in World War II, DDT was very effective in reducing malaria morbidity and mortality. The WHO's anti-malaria campaign, which consisted mostly of spraying DDT, was initially very successful as well. For example, in Sri Lanka, the program reduced cases from about 3 million per year before spraying to just 29 in 1964. Thereafter the program was halted to save money, and malaria rebounded to 600,000 cases in 1968 and the first quarter of 1969. The country resumed DDT spraying, but it was largely ineffective because mosquitoes had acquired resistance to the chemical in the interim, presumably because of its continued use in agriculture. The program was forced to switch to malathion, which though more expensive, proved effective.

The evolution of resistance to DDT in mosquitoes has greatly reduced its effectiveness in many parts of the world, and current WHO guidelines require that before the chemical is used in an area, susceptibility of local mosquitoes to DDT must be confirmed. The appearance of DDT-resistance is largely due to its use in agriculture, where it was used in much greater amounts than the relatively small quantities used for disease prevention. According to one study that attempted to quantify the lives saved by banning agricultural uses of DDT and thereby slowing the spread of resistance, "it can be estimated that at current rates each kilo of insecticide added to the environment will generate 105 new cases of malaria."

...

Resistance was noted early in spray campaigns, with Paul Russell, a former head of the Allied Anti-Malaria campaign, observing in 1956 that eradication programs had to be wary of relying on DDT for too long as "resistance has appeared [after] six or seven years." DDT has lost much of its effectiveness in many parts of the world including Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Turkey and Central America, and it has largely been replaced by organophosphate or carbamate insecticides, e.g. malathion or bendiocarb.

Rachel Carson - mass-murderer? No. Anti-environmentalists - idiots.

So you're dismissing all of the success of DDT based on the supposition that enough DDT resistant mosquitos survived to kill off the millions since stopping the use of DDT? How are the malaria numbers in South America by the way? The US? Central America? Why is it that the overwhelming number of cases of Malaria and Yellow Fever, hell, mosquito borne illness in general but specifically those two, are localized to Africa? Riddle me that. I'll save you the trouble, the answer to that question is not on Wikipedia.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:36 PM
Sorry but do you have a point somewhere?


Yes, as a matter of fact I do.

No crime in Washington Babs?

The hackers should be given a Nobel. Get it back from Algore.

.vs.

Lets take this a different direction.

If you knew that the guy at the desk across from you was stealing from your employer and you had proof:

1) Should you report it?
2) Would you report it?

If you knew that a house on your block was being used to manufacture Meth:

1) Should you report it?
2) Would you report it?

I just am amazed that we seem to accept no responsibility to report untill it is somehow requires.

For example, I have no way to know this but say a Policeman does determine someone he stops is illegal and gets name address etc. He may not be required in his job to report them but can he not as a private citizen do so? And same for the welfare worker you mention.

There is a seperation between what we can and cannot do in the confines of our jobs but that does not mean we cannot be good responsible citizens in the 16 hours we are not working, right?

My point is you guys are hypocrites.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm not saying they shouldn't. But since you don't think criminals should be prosecuted, it stands to reason you must not support a law that will cause more prosecutions.

Do you support whistle blower protections currently in place in the US?

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 12:38 PM
When it was first introduced in World War II, DDT was very effective in reducing malaria morbidity and mortality. The WHO's anti-malaria campaign, which consisted mostly of spraying DDT, was initially very successful as well. For example, in Sri Lanka, the program reduced cases from about 3 million per year before spraying to just 29 in 1964. Thereafter the program was halted to save money, and malaria rebounded to 600,000 cases in 1968 and the first quarter of 1969. The country resumed DDT spraying, but it was largely ineffective because mosquitoes had acquired resistance to the chemical in the interim, presumably because of its continued use in agriculture. The program was forced to switch to malathion, which though more expensive, proved effective.

The evolution of resistance to DDT in mosquitoes has greatly reduced its effectiveness in many parts of the world, and current WHO guidelines require that before the chemical is used in an area, susceptibility of local mosquitoes to DDT must be confirmed. The appearance of DDT-resistance is largely due to its use in agriculture, where it was used in much greater amounts than the relatively small quantities used for disease prevention. According to one study that attempted to quantify the lives saved by banning agricultural uses of DDT and thereby slowing the spread of resistance, "it can be estimated that at current rates each kilo of insecticide added to the environment will generate 105 new cases of malaria."

...

Resistance was noted early in spray campaigns, with Paul Russell, a former head of the Allied Anti-Malaria campaign, observing in 1956 that eradication programs had to be wary of relying on DDT for too long as "resistance has appeared [after] six or seven years." DDT has lost much of its effectiveness in many parts of the world including Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Turkey and Central America, and it has largely been replaced by organophosphate or carbamate insecticides, e.g. malathion or bendiocarb.

Rachel Carson - mass-murderer? No. Anti-environmentalists - idiots.

Do a bit of research into the issue of "resistance'. What you will discover is the data and facts that explain a couple key points. Resistance is the wrong word as it was not resistance that developed it was a selection process that demonstrated differing levels of mosquito suseptability to DDT, a off label use in cotton at a sub lethal doseage to mosquitos, and even greater factor was the fact DDT is one of the first products to demonstrate insect repelance.

That repelance makes the mosquito stay away. Much like Deet does today in products like Off. And as a result of not coming into contact with the DDT, it was falsly reported as resistance when a population didnt die.

The fact remains even today we don't have resistance to DDT at lethal doseages when properly applied. The ability to determine many of this was not yet understood in 1956

orange
12-03-2009, 12:43 PM
So you're dismissing all of the success of DDT based on the supposition that enough DDT resistant mosquitos survived to kill off the millions since stopping the use of DDT?

No, I'm dismissing YOU and your stupid claims that are easily falsifiable in seconds even through readily available sources like the WIKIPEDIA that you dismiss.

DDT has NOT STOPPED being used against malaria. It just doesn't work as well anymore. It's use began to be curtailed BEFORE the bans because IT STOPPED WORKING as well. People in the anti-malaria organizations WELCOME AND ENDORSE its ban in agriculture because the agricultural uses SPED UP THE RATE OF RESISTANCE and degraded its effectiveness against disease. In places where it was heavily used it's virtually useless anymore.


In short, the return of malaria deaths had NOTHING TO DO with DDT's ban in agriculture.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:46 PM
Do you support whistle blower protections currently in place in the US?

I'm not sure which ones you're referring to. Really, I'm not up on it at all.

Pretty *meh* about the whole approach. Like drug prohibitions, I don't think anti-immigrant laws will ever work. A different approach is required.

petegz28
12-03-2009, 12:46 PM
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.





.vs.





My point is you guys are hypocrites.

So you think the fact these e-mails were hacked should take priority?

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 12:49 PM
uhhh they get pissed off and harm your family? Or have their cousins harm the family etc.

And my response is "Bring it".

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 12:51 PM
Both parties (the hackers and those creating climate number fraud) should be investigated.

If its an internal employee that released the database, which is what I believe...good luck proving it.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:51 PM
So you think the fact these e-mails were hacked should take priority?

Yes, I do as a matter of fact.

To clarify that - what exactly do you think the emails prove? That global warming believers say bad things about global warming non-believers?

I don't see any evidence of any crime or even non-criminal falsification.

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 12:53 PM
No, I'm dismissing YOU and your stupid claims that are easily falsifiable in seconds even through readily available sources like the WIKIPEDIA that you dismiss.

DDT has NOT STOPPED being used against malaria. It just doesn't work as well anymore. It's use began to be curtailed BEFORE the bans because IT STOPPED WORKING as well. People in the anti-malaria organizations WELCOME AND ENDORSE its ban in agriculture because the agricultural uses SPED UP THE RATE OF RESISTANCE and degraded its effectiveness against disease. In places where it was heavily used it's virtually useless anymore.


In short, the return of malaria deaths had NOTHING TO DO with DDT's ban in agriculture.

you should read more. This is just not true at all. Are you familiar with the POP treaty and the impact on DDT use? Do you understand the legal and approved uses it currently has?

petegz28
12-03-2009, 12:53 PM
Yes, I do as a matter of fact.

To clarify that - what exactly do you think the emails prove? That global warming believers say bad things about global warming non-believers?

I don't see any evidence of any crime or even non-criminal falsification.

Of course you don't.

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 12:53 PM
Yes, I do as a matter of fact.

To clarify that - what exactly do you think the emails prove? That global warming believers say bad things about global warming non-believers?

I don't see any evidence of any crime or even non-criminal falsification.


then you haven't read them. they have doctored data to return results to match their hypothesis and then sumbitted these results to the IPCC which governments use to access the "threat". It's fraud...and it's illegal.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:54 PM
Of course you don't.

You're more than welcome to answer my question.

What crime do you see there? in the emails, that is.

orange
12-03-2009, 12:55 PM
then you haven't read them. they have doctored data to return results to match their hypothesis and then sumbitted these results to the IPCC which governments use to access the "threat". It's fraud...and it's illegal.

No, they haven't.

Show me an instance.


[edit] Wait a minute. I missed this one:

Another 10,000,000 down. Go, Rachel, go!

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 12:57 PM
No, they haven't.

Show me an instance.


[edit] Wait a minute. I missed this one:

Another 10,000,000 down. Go, Rachel, go!

It's been reported in a multitude of places. You need to get informed. You can use www.google.com (http://www.google.com) to find them. Every major news oulet has run with it.

orange
12-03-2009, 01:00 PM
It's been reported in a multitude of places. You need to get informed. You can use www.google.com (http://www.google.com) to find them. Every major news oulet has run with it.

In other words, you got nuthin'. ROFL

Feel free to bring this back up when the prosecutions begin.

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 01:03 PM
In other words, you got nuthin'. ROFL

Feel free to bring this back up when the prosecutions begin.

In other words...do your own research. You deniers get funnier by the minute.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 01:03 PM
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.





.vs.





My point is you guys are hypocrites.

No, your point is that you have an urge to be right, even when you know you aren't.

I don't give a flying fig about a victimless crime in another nation that may expose billions of dollars worth of theft in ours.

orange
12-03-2009, 01:08 PM
In other words...do your own research. You deniers get funnier by the minute.

I did my research.

There was no crime, no fraud.

You claim otherwise but you can't say what it was... because there was no crime, no fraud.

I continue to ROFL and ROFL again.


Or, in the words of the Pro-Vice-Chancellor of UEA:

Statement from Professor Trevor Davies, Pro-Vice-Chancellor, Research

The publication of a selection of the emails and data stolen from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) has led to some questioning of the climate science research published by CRU and others. There is nothing in the stolen material which indicates that peer-reviewed publications by CRU, and others, on the nature of global warming and related climate change are not of the highest-quality of scientific investigation and interpretation. CRU’s peer-reviewed publications are consistent with, and have contributed to, the overwhelming scientific consensus that the climate is being strongly influenced by human activity. The interactions of the atmosphere, oceans, land, and ice mean that the strongly-increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere do not produce a uniform year-on-year increase in global temperature. On time-scales of 5-10 years, however, there is a broad scientific consensus that the Earth will continue to warm, with attendant changes in the climate, for the foreseeable future. It is important, for all countries, that this warming is slowed down, through substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions to reduce the most dangerous impacts of climate change. Respected international research groups, using other data sets, have come to the same conclusion.

The University of East Anglia and CRU are committed to scientific integrity, open debate and enhancing understanding. This includes a commitment to the international peer-review system upon which progress in science relies. It is this tried and tested system which has underpinned the assessments of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. It is through that process that we can engage in respectful and informed debate with scientists whose analyses appear not to be consistent with the current overwhelming consensus on climate change

The publication of a selection of stolen data is the latest example of a sustained and, in some instances, a vexatious campaign which may have been designed to distract from reasoned debate about the nature of the urgent action which world governments must consider to mitigate, and adapt to, climate change. We are committed to furthering this debate despite being faced with difficult circumstances related to a criminal breach of our security systems and our concern to protect colleagues from the more extreme behaviour of some who have responded in irrational and unpleasant ways to the publication of personal information.

There has been understandable interest in the progress and outcome of the numerous requests under information legislation for large numbers of the data series held by CRU. The University takes its responsibilities under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, Environmental Information Regulations 2004, and the Data Protection Act 1998 very seriously and has, in all cases, handled and responded to requests in accordance with its obligations under each particular piece of legislation. Where appropriate, we have consulted with the Information Commissioners Office and have followed their advice.

In relation to the specific requests at issue here, we have handled and responded to each request in a consistent manner in compliance with the appropriate legislation. No record has been deleted, altered, or otherwise dealt with in any fashion with the intent of preventing the disclosure of all, or any part, of the requested information. Where information has not been disclosed, we have done so in accordance with the provisions of the relevant legislation and have so informed the requester.

The Climatic Research Unit holds many data series, provided to the Unit over a period of several decades, from a number of nationally-funded institutions and other research organisations around the world, with specific agreements made over restrictions in the dissemination of those original data. All of these individual series have been used in CRU’s analyses. It is a time-consuming process to attempt to gain approval from these organisations to release the data. Since some of them were provided decades ago, it has sometimes been necessary to track down the successors of the original organisations. It is clearly in the public interest that these data are released once we have succeeded in gaining the approval of collaborators. Some who have requested the data will have been aware of the scale of the exercise we have had to undertake. Much of these data are already available from the websites of the Global Historical Climate Data Network and the Goddard Institute for Space Science.

Given the degree to which we collaborate with other organisations around the world, there is also an understandable interest in the computer security systems we have in place in CRU and UEA. Although we were confident that our systems were appropriate, experience has shown that determined and skilled people, who are prepared to engage in criminal activity, can sometimes hack into apparently secure systems. Highly-protected government organisations around the world have also learned this to their cost.

We have, therefore, decided to conduct an independent review, which will address the issue of data security, an assessment of how we responded to a deluge of Freedom of Information requests, and any other relevant issues which the independent reviewer advises should be addressed.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/2009/nov/homepagenews/CRUupdate

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 01:09 PM
I did my research.

There was no crime, no fraud.

You claim otherwise but you can't say what it was... because there was no crime, no fraud.

I continue to ROFL and ROFL again.

If you did your research then you are being dishonest with yourself.

They doctored the data to show warming when there wasn't then published it. That is fraud. It's illegal here in the states, which is why you already have a few "scientists" looking at prosecution.

orange
12-03-2009, 01:14 PM
I don't give a flying fig about a victimless crime in another nation that may expose billions of dollars worth of theft in ours.

You don't give a flying fig about ANY CRIME when the results fit your political viewpoint.

And again, no "billions of dollars worth of theft in ours."

Sorry, you have the same lack of any meaningful charges as Garcia Bronco.

orange
12-03-2009, 01:16 PM
If you did your research then you are being dishonest with yourself.

They doctored the data to show warming when there wasn't then published it. That is fraud. It's illegal here in the states, which is why you already have a few "scientists" looking at prosecution.





Statement from Professor Trevor Davies, Pro-Vice-Chancellor, Research

There is nothing in the stolen material which indicates that peer-reviewed publications by CRU, and others, on the nature of global warming and related climate change are not of the highest-quality of scientific investigation and interpretation.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 01:16 PM
No, I'm dismissing YOU and your stupid claims that are easily falsifiable in seconds even through readily available sources like the WIKIPEDIA that you dismiss.

DDT has NOT STOPPED being used against malaria. It just doesn't work as well anymore. It's use began to be curtailed BEFORE the bans because IT STOPPED WORKING as well. People in the anti-malaria organizations WELCOME AND ENDORSE its ban in agriculture because the agricultural uses SPED UP THE RATE OF RESISTANCE and degraded its effectiveness against disease. In places where it was heavily used it's virtually useless anymore.


In short, the return of malaria deaths had NOTHING TO DO with DDT's ban in agriculture.


Do a bit of research into the issue of "resistance'. What you will discover is the data and facts that explain a couple key points. Resistance is the wrong word as it was not resistance that developed it was a selection process that demonstrated differing levels of mosquito suseptability to DDT, a off label use in cotton at a sub lethal doseage to mosquitos, and even greater factor was the fact DDT is one of the first products to demonstrate insect repelance.

That repelance makes the mosquito stay away. Much like Deet does today in products like Off. And as a result of not coming into contact with the DDT, it was falsly reported as resistance when a population didnt die.

The fact remains even today we don't have resistance to DDT at lethal doseages when properly applied. The ability to determine many of this was not yet understood in 1956

What ^he^ said.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 01:22 PM
I'm not sure which ones you're referring to. Really, I'm not up on it at all.

Pretty *meh* about the whole approach. Like drug prohibitions, I don't think anti-immigrant laws will ever work. A different approach is required.

Generally the phrase "Whistleblower protection" refers to the protection offered to those within gov't who go outside of their agencies to alert authorities to waste, fraud, and abuse so that they may do so without fear of reprisal from other branches of gov't. So, do you support whistleblower protection? Do whistleblowers serve a purpose in your mind?

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 01:23 PM
Statement from Professor Trevor Davies, Pro-Vice-Chancellor, Research

There is nothing in the stolen material which indicates that peer-reviewed publications by CRU, and others, on the nature of global warming and related climate change are not of the highest-quality of scientific investigation and interpretation.


LOL...do you know who that guy is? He runs the school that owns the CRU. The same CRU that doctored the data. LMAO

orange
12-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Generally the phrase "Whistleblower protection" refers to the protection offered to those within gov't who go outside of their agencies to alert authorities to waste, fraud, and abuse so that they may do so without fear of reprisal from other branches of gov't. So, do you support whistleblower protection? Do whistleblowers serve a purpose in your mind?

In that case, YES.

Was that the case in the email thefts? NO. No crime or fraud was exposed. The emails that were released were selected to advance a cause. The perps did not go through any of the channels that are afforded "whistleblower protection." Etc.

This was a purely political hack-job.

:evil: - note the clever double entendre there

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 01:29 PM
LOL...do you know who that guy is? He runs the school that owns the CRU. The same CRU that doctored the data. LMAO

The same CRU that destroyed the data.

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orange
12-03-2009, 01:29 PM
LOL...do you know who that guy is? He runs the school that owns the CRU. The same CRU that doctored the data. LMAO

Wonder where on earth you got that? Could it be from the post where I named him just above? Where I linked to the actual UEA statement? (of course, he doesn't actually run the place - hence the "Vice" in his title)

I'm still waiting for anything like an actual charge from anyone.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2009, 01:37 PM
Wonder where on earth you got that? Could it be from the post where I named him just above? Where I linked to the actual UEA statement? (of course, he doesn't actually run the place - hence the "Vice" in his title)

I'm still waiting for anything like an actual charge from anyone.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Yeah the VC does nothing. GTFOH.

Well this is an email from Phil Jones boasting about hiding the decine in temps. They are liars. And while I understand that you feel tricked and are probably mad at yourself....it's okay....you can change directions.

Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,
Once Tim’s got a diagram here we’ll send that either later today or
first thing tomorrow.
I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps
to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from
1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline. Mike’s series got the annual
land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land
N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999
for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with
data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.
Thanks for the comments, Ray.
Cheers
Phil
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) xxxxx
School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) xxxx
University of East Anglia

Donger
12-03-2009, 01:38 PM
I wasn't aware that Boxer was a member of Parliament.

orange
12-03-2009, 01:46 PM
Yeah the VC does nothing. GTFOH.

Well this is an email from Phil Jones boasting about hiding the decine in temps. They are liars. And while I understand that you feel tricked and are probably mad at yourself....it's okay....you can change directions.


Don't stop patting yourself on the back just because that was dealt with a week ago - your finding it today at my insistence will only help you in the long run by waking up a few sleeping brain cells.



“The paper in question is the Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998) Nature paper on the original multiproxy temperature reconstruction [the ‘hockey-stick’ graph of pre-instrumental temperatures over the past 1000 years in the Northern Hemisphere], and the ‘trick’ is just to plot the instrumental records along with reconstruction so that the context of the recent warming is clear. Scientists often use the term “trick” to refer to “a good way to deal with a problem”, rather than something that is “secret”, and so there is nothing problematic in this at all. As for the ‘decline’, it is well known that Keith Briffa’s [another prominent member of the Team] maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the “divergence problem” … and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al. in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post-1960 part of their reconstruction, and so, while ‘hiding’ is probably a poor choice of words (since it is ‘hidden’ in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand why this happens.”


It's a rather well-known controversy - hardly hidden from view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

Again, let me know when the prosecutions start.

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

mlyonsd
12-03-2009, 01:49 PM
Whether or not England decides to prosecute someone over the matter doesn't concern me.

I'm just glad this incident is the final nail in the cap and trade coffin in this country.

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 02:00 PM
In that case, YES.

Was that the case in the email thefts? NO. No crime or fraud was exposed. The emails that were released were selected to advance a cause. The perps did not go through any of the channels that are afforded "whistleblower protection." Etc.

This was a purely political hack-job.

:evil: - note the clever double entendre there

Funny, that's the position Brown and Williamson took when their fraud was exposed. Theft, fraud, breach of contract.

Why are the believers in AGW so virulent and dedicated to shutting down any dissent or any research that challenges their theories on the issue?

KC Dan
12-03-2009, 02:07 PM
Why are the believers in AGW so virulent and dedicated to shutting down any dissent or any research that challenges their theories on the issue?
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RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 02:12 PM
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.
-Camus

orange
12-03-2009, 02:17 PM
Those who weep for the happy periods which they encounter in history acknowledge what they want; not the alleviation but the silencing of misery.
-Camus

http://www.planebuzz.com/duel.jpg

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 02:31 PM
Those who weep for the happy periods which they encounter in history acknowledge what they want; not the alleviation but the silencing of misery.
-Camus

http://www.planebuzz.com/duel.jpg

WTF that has to do with this thread is beyond me. I'm pretty sure you googled Camus quotes in the hopes you would find a sufficient rebuttal. In finding this quote you felt you discovered a sufficient allegation to lay at my feet, that I somehow do not care about the misery of others. Quite the contrary; it is the practitioners who worship at the feet of AGW who care not for the misery of others. I, on the other hand, support a world where all peoples and nations have the opportunity to enjoy their own industrial revolution that creates the wealth of the people, empowers their populace, strikes down tyrants, and raises the standard of living for all. A cornerstone for this vision is the availability of affordable and reliable energy. Not just to power computers but to clean water, operate irrigation, provide power for heating and cooling, and power hospitals. Denying these fundamental aspects of human need in the name of a religion, relegating those in true poverty to have nothing but the same poverty to look forward to is truly a vile ambition. For what? Why do progressives hate people? I seek to open doors of opportunity for those who choose to go through them. What do you seek to do for humanity? Relegate them to the stone age?

Doing all of this under the guise of scientific consensus is disgusting. And you still support it despite the fact that those claiming consensus have been shown to have been actively engaged in an effort to shut down dissent, manipulate data, and hide the true results of their analyses. All data and studies on AGW need to be revisted and re-done with full accountability and transparency before any discussion on regulating CO2 can move forward.

orange
12-03-2009, 02:39 PM
I'm pretty sure you googled Camus quotes in the hopes you would find a sufficient rebuttal.

Unlike you, who has The Complete Camus on your desk and typed out the quote.

ROFLROFLROFL

Mersault - Everyman adrift in a sea of recognition of the absurdity of life, or just a dick. What's your take?

RaiderH8r
12-03-2009, 02:43 PM
Unlike you, who has The Complete Camus on your desk and typed out the quote.

ROFLROFLROFL

No, I read him in college and that was one quote that always stuck with me. You didn't have to get into a Camus tete a tete with me. A quote that you enjoy that has particular meaning for you would have been fine but you googled a rebuttal for sake of one upsmanship and that's kind of smarmy.

You didn't do much in regards to rebutting the meat and taters of my statement. I understand.

orange
12-03-2009, 02:49 PM
No, I read him in college and that was one quote that always stuck with me.

What's it from?

... And about Mersault - Everyman or dick?

As for the rest of your statement - it's laughable. There is a mountain of evidence supporting human-caused destructive global warming.

And when is the "availability of affordable and reliable energy" going to start providing "all peoples and nations ... the opportunity to enjoy their own industrial revolution that creates the wealth of the people, empowers their populace, strikes down tyrants, and raises the standard of living for all."

The Third World would love to know. Is their misery silent to you?

http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/iran-repression.jpg

YOUR OIL DOLLARS AT WORK

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 04:39 PM
You don't give a flying fig about ANY CRIME when the results fit your political viewpoint.

Really? You have previous posts proving this? Or just more baseless assumptions?

I am assuming you have previous posts regarding your outrage at victimless crimes committed in other nations as well?

You NEED to be right, therefore, you detract. It is a simple formula we have seen done by both sides in here. This time you are guilty.
Posted via Mobile Device

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 04:40 PM
This was a purely political hack-job.

:evil: - note the clever double entendre there

Link?
Posted via Mobile Device

orange
12-03-2009, 05:23 PM
Link?
Posted via Mobile Device

Already provided above in #96.

The short form:

The publication of a selection of stolen data is the latest example of a sustained and, in some instances, a vexatious campaign which may have been designed to distract from reasoned debate about the nature of the urgent action which world governments must consider to mitigate, and adapt to, climate change. We are committed to furthering this debate despite being faced with difficult circumstances related to a criminal breach of our security systems and our concern to protect colleagues from the more extreme behaviour of some who have responded in irrational and unpleasant ways to the publication of personal information.


Of course, that's only one side. The other side is a thief who's understandably remaining anonymous so we can only conjecture about his reasons - except that warming deniers are making exactly the same claim about his motivation:


The whistleblower deep in the basement of one of the ugly, modern tower-blocks of the dismal, windswept University of East Anglia could scarcely have timed it better.

In less than three weeks, the world’s governing class – its classe politique – would meet in Copenhagen, Denmark, to discuss a treaty to inflict an unelected and tyrannical global government on us, with vast and unprecedented powers to control all once-free world markets and to tax and regulate the world’s wealthier nations for its own enrichment: in short, to bring freedom, democracy, and prosperity to an instant end worldwide, at the stroke of a pen, on the pretext of addressing what is now known to be the non-problem of manmade “global warming”.

The unnamed hero of ‘Climategate’, after months of work gathering emails, computer code, and data, quietly sent a 61-megabyte compressed file from one of the university’s servers to an obscure public message-board on the internet, with a short covering note to the effect that the climate was too important to keep the material secret, and that the data from the University would be available for a short time only.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/01/lord-moncktons-summary-of-climategate-and-its-issues/


Both sides agree!!! Isn't that a first?

Are you a little bit on the outside looking in?

orange
12-03-2009, 06:01 PM
Really? You have previous posts proving this? Or just more baseless assumptions?


So easy, SO easy. At least wait a couple days.

By the way, is assault and battery "victimless?"

So you are outraged a terrorist got punched and the man who punched him lied about it?


I can't believe liberal wusses anymore.

Saul Good
12-03-2009, 06:07 PM
What's it from?

... And about Mersault - Everyman or dick?

As for the rest of your statement - it's laughable. There is a mountain of evidence supporting human-caused destructive global warming.

And when is the "availability of affordable and reliable energy" going to start providing "all peoples and nations ... the opportunity to enjoy their own industrial revolution that creates the wealth of the people, empowers their populace, strikes down tyrants, and raises the standard of living for all."

The Third World would love to know. Is their misery silent to you?

http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/iran-repression.jpg

YOUR OIL DOLLARS AT WORK

Oops. Your real agenda is starting to show. If it's about not funding corrupt governments with oil revenues, just say so. Don't pretend that it's about the weather.

orange
12-03-2009, 06:13 PM
Oops. Your real agenda is starting to show. If it's about not funding corrupt governments with oil revenues, just say so. Don't pretend that it's about the weather.

"My agenda" is showing because I respond to a direct and patently absurd claim by another poster about the state of the world, by showing the state of world?

Okay, if you say so.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 06:18 PM
Already provided above in #96.

The short form:

The publication of a selection of stolen data is the latest example of a sustained and, in some instances, a vexatious campaign which may have been designed to distract from reasoned debate about the nature of the urgent action which world governments must consider to mitigate, and adapt to, climate change. We are committed to furthering this debate despite being faced with difficult circumstances related to a criminal breach of our security systems and our concern to protect colleagues from the more extreme behaviour of some who have responded in irrational and unpleasant ways to the publication of personal information.


Of course, that's only one side. The other side is a thief who's understandably remaining anonymous so we can only conjecture about his reasons - except that warming deniers are making exactly the same claim about his motivation:


The whistleblower deep in the basement of one of the ugly, modern tower-blocks of the dismal, windswept University of East Anglia could scarcely have timed it better.

In less than three weeks, the world’s governing class – its classe politique – would meet in Copenhagen, Denmark, to discuss a treaty to inflict an unelected and tyrannical global government on us, with vast and unprecedented powers to control all once-free world markets and to tax and regulate the world’s wealthier nations for its own enrichment: in short, to bring freedom, democracy, and prosperity to an instant end worldwide, at the stroke of a pen, on the pretext of addressing what is now known to be the non-problem of manmade “global warming”.

The unnamed hero of ‘Climategate’, after months of work gathering emails, computer code, and data, quietly sent a 61-megabyte compressed file from one of the university’s servers to an obscure public message-board on the internet, with a short covering note to the effect that the climate was too important to keep the material secret, and that the data from the University would be available for a short time only.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/01/lord-moncktons-summary-of-climategate-and-its-issues/


Both sides agree!!! Isn't that a first?

Are you a little bit on the outside looking in?
Since we don't know who it was, we have a lot of "ifs" and "mays" in your links above, but hardly conclusive fac as you alluded yto in your "political hack" statement. For someone interested in foreign "justice" you certainly don't have any problems leaping to a motive without proof.
Posted via Mobile Device

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 06:19 PM
So easy, SO easy. At least wait a couple days.

By the way, is assault and battery "victimless?"

Not at all victimless. And not at all a foreign crime.

Which is why I asked, and you have yet to provide.
Posted via Mobile Device

RaiderH8r
12-04-2009, 06:51 AM
What's it from?

... And about Mersault - Everyman or dick?

As for the rest of your statement - it's laughable. There is a mountain of evidence supporting human-caused destructive global warming.

And when is the "availability of affordable and reliable energy" going to start providing "all peoples and nations ... the opportunity to enjoy their own industrial revolution that creates the wealth of the people, empowers their populace, strikes down tyrants, and raises the standard of living for all."

The Third World would love to know. Is their misery silent to you?

http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/iran-repression.jpg

YOUR OIL DOLLARS AT WORK

I don't know that I've ever come across anybody so willfully ignorant before, this is challenging.

My point is that the third world needs their industrial revolution to raise themselves up off of the floor. To do that they need energy, cheap energy, reliable energy. I don't know wtf your post about oil dollars at work had to do with my point.

It is becoming quite clear that you view the world through your myopic lens and are either unwilling or incapable of moving outside of that narrow point of view to consider larger issues at hand. The fact you are willing to not just turn a blind eye to such a gross perversion of the scientific method but are willfully engaging in this distraction is mind boggling and pathetic.

I am not advocating anything more than rigorous scientific study begin anew, fully transparent and fully accessable to peers and public for scrutiny. Skepticism is the cornerstone of scientific method.

wild1
12-04-2009, 07:26 AM
I am not advocating anything more than rigorous scientific study begin anew, fully transparent and fully accessable to peers and public for scrutiny. Skepticism is the cornerstone of scientific method.

Denier. Flat earther. This is all settled science!! The debate is over!!

orange
12-04-2009, 02:14 PM
I am not advocating anything more than rigorous scientific study begin anew, fully transparent and fully accessable to peers and public for scrutiny. Skepticism is the cornerstone of scientific method.


Don't forget the death penalty for Rachel.



The environmental movement has killed more people than Stalin ever hoped to by simply having DDT banned. Rachel Carson is worse than Stalin.


ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

You are completely FOS!

googlegoogle
12-04-2009, 10:20 PM
She's worried the movement is drying up and so will the campaign dollars.

Bwana
12-05-2009, 06:07 AM
What it did do, is knock the "theory" of global warming back into to stone age. J.Q. public is calling bullshit at this point. Good luck getting people to buy into it after this little set of events.

munkey
12-05-2009, 06:58 AM
What it did do, is knock the "theory" of global warming back into to stone age. J.Q. public is calling bullshit at this point. Good luck getting people to buy into it after this little set of events.

But...but nothing happened...nothing was stolen...it's all BS...

Just ask orange...

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 11:13 AM
What it did do, is knock the "theory" of global warming back into to stone age. J.Q. public is calling bullshit at this point. Good luck getting people to buy into it after this little set of events.

If you'd poke your head in the other thread, you'd know that it didn't knock anything back to the stone age.

From a PR standpoint, it's true, it's devastating.

orange
12-05-2009, 11:14 AM
But...but nothing happened...nothing was stolen...it's all BS...

Just ask orange...


Has anybody on this site for example changed their mind?

I see the same deniers as ever.

I'm sure "climate-gate" will kill the anti-Global Warming movement just as surely as the teabagger protests scared the House into nixing health care reform.

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 11:15 AM
Has anybody on this site for example changed their mind?

I see the same deniers as ever.

I'm sure "climate-gate" will kill the anti-Global Warming movement just as surely as the teabagger protests scared the House into nixing health care reform.

Climategate is the new death panels.

Bwana
12-05-2009, 11:23 AM
From a PR standpoint, it's true, it's devastating.

What it is going to do, is wake people up to the BS. Anyone that was on the fence, just fell over to the "this issue is nothing but smoke and mirrors" camp.

Hopefully it derails the cap and trade once and for all.

Regarding the issue, welcome to Fantasy Island.

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060713/133310__tattoo_l.jpg

Chief Henry
12-05-2009, 11:47 AM
What it is going to do, is wake people up to the BS. Anyone that was on the fence, just fell over to the "this issue is nothing but smoke and mirrors" camp.

Hopefully it derails the cap and trade once and for all.

Regarding the issue, welcome to Fantasy Island.

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060713/133310__tattoo_l.jpg

In the other thread banyon has stated Phil Jones, the lead scientist at the Climate Research Unit has not done anything wrong. Banyon says those emails prove NOTHING.

It proves that Phil Jones is the Bernie Madoff of the man made global warming
circle jerk society.

Bwana
12-05-2009, 11:49 AM
In the other thread banyon has stated Phil Jones, the lead scientist at the Climate Research Unit has not done anything wrong. Banyon says those emails prove NOTHING.

It proves that Phil Jones is the Bernie Madoff of the man made global warming
circle jerk society.

Shocking!

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 11:59 AM
In the other thread banyon has stated Phil Jones, the lead scientist at the Climate Research Unit has not done anything wrong. Banyon says those emails prove NOTHING.

It proves that Phil Jones is the Bernie Madoff of the man made global warming
circle jerk society.

That's because they haven't. Jebus.

RedNeckRaider
12-05-2009, 11:59 AM
Has anybody on this site for example changed their mind?

I see the same deniers as ever.

I'm sure "climate-gate" will kill the anti-Global Warming movement just as surely as the teabagger protests scared the House into nixing health care reform.

And I see the same claimers :rolleyes:

Bwana
12-05-2009, 12:06 PM
And I see the same claimers :rolleyes:

Heh


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:VjsDmGzxppOewM:http://www.speedysigns.com/images/decals/jpg/H/72/159.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.speedysigns.com/images/decals/jpg/H/72/159.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.speedysigns.com/decals/vinyl-decal-72159.htm&usg=__im2TzGqggKyBlhMCmBCA07va45s=&h=400&w=281&sz=15&hl=en&start=15&um=1&tbnid=VjsDmGzxppOewM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dblind%2Bman%2Bcane%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1)

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 12:07 PM
And this is why the DC forum is pointless.

stevieray
12-05-2009, 12:20 PM
And this is why the DC forum is pointless.

well, bye...oh wait..you won't leave..you'll stay around and martyr yourself over issues so you can look down your nose at others..

Taco John
12-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Has anybody on this site for example changed their mind?


Actually, yes. I did change my mind. I used to believe in man made global warming.

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 12:23 PM
Actually, yes. I did change my mind. I used to believe in man made global warming.

What was the final straw then?

KCWolfman
12-05-2009, 12:25 PM
That's because they haven't. Jebus.

Then why step down? More importantly why ascerbate the issue by demanding foreign investigations of the emails made public? That hurts them more than a little twisted data, IMO
Posted via Mobile Device

banyon
12-05-2009, 12:26 PM
What was the final straw then?

Ron Paul and Lew Rockwell told him it wasn't real.

You can't only go part way into the ideology, you have to go whole hog.

Chief Henry
12-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Shocking!




You want shocking...try googling "Phil Jones 22 million"
This will give you the WHY Phil Jones and his BS global warming scientist
have been fabricating manmade global warming.

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 12:45 PM
You want shocking...try googling "Phil Jones 22 million"
This will give you the WHY Phil Jones and his BS global warming scientist
have been fabricating manmade global warming.

Google Moon conspiracy.

Man, it must be true.

Chief Henry
12-05-2009, 12:57 PM
Google Moon conspiracy.

Man, it must be true.


head - sand

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 12:58 PM
head - sand

I know, that's why you can't see.

kcfanXIII
12-05-2009, 12:59 PM
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.





.vs.





My point is you guys are hypocrites.

funny thing about this post here. he gives an example of one hypocritical statement, by one poster, and says "you guys".

jjjayb
12-05-2009, 01:51 PM
Ron Paul and Lew Rockwell told him it wasn't real.

You can't only go part way into the ideology, you have to go whole hog.

Or he just opened his eyes and stopped drinking the koolaid.

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 02:10 PM
Or he just opened his eyes and stopped drinking the koolaid.

Opened his eyes to what, exactly?

It certainly isn't the evidence.

jjjayb
12-05-2009, 02:18 PM
Opened his eyes to what, exactly?

It certainly isn't the evidence.

Yes. It is the evidence.

irishjayhawk
12-05-2009, 02:20 PM
Yes. It is the evidence.

Please present it.

jjjayb
12-05-2009, 02:42 PM
Has the temperature not dropped in the last 10 years? You know, the decline they can't account for? The decline the CRU folks are trying to hide because it doesn't match what their precious models predicted?

Global climate has always fluctuated. Last decade was the hottest temperature of the last 1200 years. What about the period before then? Medievel Optimum? How do you account for all of the previous ice ages and warming periods before man's influence?

Evidence shows CO2 levels are a result of warmer temperatures as opposed to C02 causing warmer temperatures. Yet we are still looking at taxing CO2 emmissions? Maybe we should tax the ocean.

KCWolfman
12-05-2009, 02:58 PM
Has the temperature not dropped in the last 10 years? You know, the decline they can't account for? The decline the CRU folks are trying to hide because it doesn't match what their precious models predicted?

Global climate has always fluctuated. Last decade was the hottest temperature of the last 1200 years. What about the period before then? Medievel Optimum? How do you account for all of the previous ice ages and warming periods before man's influence?

Evidence shows CO2 levels are a result of warmer temperatures as opposed to C02 causing warmer temperatures. Yet we are still looking at taxing CO2 emmissions? Maybe we should tax the ocean.

I still don't understand how collecting money will reduce the emissions. Nor do I understand how anyone could justify such horrid roundabout logic.

Bill Parcells
12-05-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm starting to think this woman did a lot of LSD in the sixities.

I agree ;) when she first got elected 16 or 17 years ago she wasnt that bad looking..but now? :Lin:

orange
12-05-2009, 03:09 PM
And I see the same claimers :rolleyes:

So I guess you agree that "climate-gate" has had no impact!

Wonderful!

I can go back to gaming, now.

orange
12-05-2009, 03:13 PM
funny thing about this post here. he gives an example of one hypocritical statement, by one poster, and says "you guys".

That "you guys" referred to this:

And those of you backing the hackers - I'm quite certain you're against that "report the illegals" law in the other thread.

Nobody - except for YOU, apparently - had any trouble determining if they personally were being consistent or not.

Norman Einstein
12-05-2009, 08:51 PM
Who really gives a rats ass about what Barbara Boxer wants or thinks? She wants war criminals to have the same rights American Citizens have. I would agree if they were to pay taxes to our government for every penny they have or have had in their life, and AFTER they pay that bill and go through the immigration procedure then they would be afforded those rights. (I just threw in the tax thing for the enemic economy of the U.S.)

Saul Good
12-06-2009, 08:44 AM
So I guess you agree that "climate-gate" has had no impact!

Wonderful!

I can go back to gaming, now.

No impact among the most die-hard posters on this board? Probably not.

No impact among the general populace? Oh yes it did.

googlegoogle
12-06-2009, 02:13 PM
Boxer should be doing LA MILF movies.

Norman Einstein
12-06-2009, 02:17 PM
Boxer should be doing LA MILF movies.

You are kidding right? 99.9% of red blooded men wouldn't f*ck her with YOUR dick!