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View Full Version : U.S. Issues Arizona Court refuses to block 'immigrant-reporting' law


HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 07:19 AM
This sort of begs a couple questions. What Arizona seems to be doing is asking through law that any public employee who knows someone is in the country illegally should be required to report those people. On the surface that seems sort of harsh. I mean, why wouldn't any good citizen report any illegal? If you saw a holdup in progress (illegal activity) wouldn't you call the police? We dont have to force people under penalty of a fine to report a house on fire do we?

I have a good friend who lives in the town of Douglas Arizona. Thats like right on the border into Mexico. What he explained to me is the issue is that there are a goodly number of green card holding legal immigrants who are doing everything they can to cover for and not report illegals and that in the department he works in, the people who will and have reported illegals are upset that their peers won't and actually harbor illegals. Sounds based on what he says that they have some real issues with state employees in his department almost coming to blows over this thing. And its not a anglo vs hispanic issue, he says some of the most fired up are hispanics who support the law as proposed who are mad as can be at hispanics who are against it.

He says that that we in the midwest probably cannot even begin to relate to what they see every day. Roadside checkpoints, as he calls them green and whites, thats the Border service truck colors, running all over, and all manner of government agaencies trying to fight the tide of people coming in.

This just seems wrong that we have gotten to the point where we have to require through law and penalty forcing people to do what any good citizen should do in any situation. Have we lost all touch with right and wrong?

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/319941

Tucson Region
Court refuses to block 'immigrant-reporting' law
By Howard Fischer
Capitol Media Services
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 12.03.2009

PHOENIX The Arizona Supreme Court refused late Wednesday to block enactment of a new state law that requires public employees to report illegal immigrants.
Without ruling on the merits of the law, the justices said that the League of Arizona Cities and Towns, which had asked that the law be struck down as illegal, had not shown that the issue merited being taken directly to the state's high court.

Ken Strobeck, executive director of the league, said he was "shocked and disappointed"' that the justices did not see fit to weigh in on the question, at least at this point. He said no decision has been made whether to try again, this time by filing the case in Maricopa County Superior Court.

Strobeck said cities are concerned about several provisions of the law, part of a package approved by lawmakers in August to help balance the budget.
He specifically cited sections on illegal immigration that spell out what documents applicants for various public services must provide to prove they are in this country legally.

It also says that any public employee who fails to report discovered violations of federal immigration law is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. That carries a potential of four months in jail and a $750 fine.

That same penalty would apply to the worker's supervisor if he or she knew of the failure to report the illegal immigrant and did not direct the worker to file the report.
And the law allows state resident who believes the law has been broken to file suit.
Strobeck said cities are concerned about the liability of their workers and the potential to become embroiled in lawsuits.

But in challenging the law, the cities dealt not with the merits of the law but the way it was enacted.

Specifically, the lawsuit points out that the August special session was called to deal with budget issues. And the measure in which the illegal immigration language was included deals with changes in policy related to state spending.
That, the league's lawsuit claims, makes the provisions about illegal immigration unconstitutional because they have nothing to do with the budget. Strobeck said cities have no interest in providing services to illegal immigrants.

The lawsuit also uses the same arguments to void other nonbudget provisions in the same bill, including one that retroactively freezes any increase in "impact fees"' that cities can charge developers.

House Speaker Kirk Adams, R-Mesa, has defended the changes, saying that they relate to money the government spends on providing services. Lawmakers also have argued that the freeze on impact fees is legal, saying the move could help stimulate the home-building industry, which affects total state revenues.

Those arguments now will have to be presented to a trial court judge if the league decides to pursue the case. Strobeck acknowledged that it could be years before the case gets through a trial, goes to the court of appeals and eventually winds up back before the state Supreme Court.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 07:27 AM
So some soccer mom overhears a conversation at a grocery store and is then obligated under a threat of being thrown in jail herself to alert the authorities?

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 07:32 AM
No. As I read it, only state employees are included. In the first paragraph it says:

"The Arizona Supreme Court refused late Wednesday to block enactment of a new state law that requires public employees to report illegal immigrants."

I don't think its intent is to target soccer moms.

BigRedChief
12-03-2009, 07:34 AM
No. As I read it, only state employees are included. In the first paragraph it says:

"The Arizona Supreme Court refused late Wednesday to block enactment of a new state law that requires public employees to report illegal immigrants."

I don't think its intent is to target soccer moms.
Thats still too "Big Brother", soviet state like for me, turning in your neighbors? Man, thats a slippery path.

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 07:41 AM
Thats still too "Big Brother", soviet state like for me, turning in your neighbors? Man, thats a slippery path.

Lets take this a different direction.

If you knew that the guy at the desk across from you was stealing from your employer and you had proof:

1) Should you report it?
2) Would you report it?

If you knew that a house on your block was being used to manufacture Meth:

1) Should you report it?
2) Would you report it?

vailpass
12-03-2009, 09:48 AM
Under the current law if an illegal goes into the welfare office to apply for foodstamps and assistance the state worker cannot reprot the illegal's status to ICE.
If a police officer pulls someone over for speeding and discovers the driver is illegal they CANNOT report them as illegals.


No private citizen is compelled to report anything. No employee of a private comapny is compelled to report anything.

Arizona is overrun by illegals and it is their own fault. For years illegals had sanctuary here. No more. Last year the law was passed that penalizes the employer of illegals. This is working well and, combined with the collapsed construction economy has driven many illegals out. There is still a long way to go to rid the area of these law-breaking aliens who are draining our resources but the attitude is definetely changing towards enforcement of our laws and protection of our borders.

Otter
12-03-2009, 10:08 AM
Under the current law if an illegal goes into the welfare office to apply for foodstamps and assistance the state worker cannot reprot the illegal's status to ICE.
If a police officer pulls someone over for speeding and discovers the driver is illegal they CANNOT report them as illegals.


No private citizen is compelled to report anything. No employee of a private comapny is compelled to report anything.

Arizona is overrun by illegals and it is their own fault. For years illegals had sanctuary here. No more. Last year the law was passed that penalizes the employer of illegals. This is working well and, combined with the collapsed construction economy has driven many illegals out. There is still a long way to go to rid the area of these law-breaking aliens who are draining our resources but the attitude is definetely changing towards enforcement of our laws and protection of our borders.

Good to see. Make your voice heard and let them know you're fed up with the invasion.

http://www.numbersusa.com/content/

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 10:08 AM
I just am amazed that we seem to accept no responsibility to report untill it is somehow requires.

For example, I have no way to know this but say a Policeman does determine someone he stops is illegal and gets name address etc. He may not be required in his job to report them but can he not as a private citizen do so? And same for the welfare worker you mention.

There is a seperation between what we can and cannot do in the confines of our jobs but that does not mean we cannot be good responsible citizens in the 16 hours we are not working, right?

Otter
12-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Thats still too "Big Brother", soviet state like for me, turning in your neighbors? Man, thats a slippery path.

"Neighbor" to me means a fellow countrymen not someone who invaded a sovereign state in the middle of a night to defraud law abiding citizens.

But I won't get started on here, it's a waste of time when I could be doing something that will make a difference in the matter.

KC native
12-03-2009, 10:22 AM
"Neighbor" to me means a fellow countrymen not someone who invaded a sovereign state in the middle of a night to defraud law abiding citizens.

But I won't get started on here, it's a waste of time when I could be doing something that will make a difference in the matter.

But you still won't do anything other than bitch.

Otter
12-03-2009, 10:26 AM
But you still won't do anything other than bitch.

Where's those threats you claim I made scumbag?

I've had a couple illegals deported by my actions, a few just a month or so ago.

KC native
12-03-2009, 10:28 AM
Where's those threats you claim I made scumbag?

I already told you that I'm not going to go back and look for it. So, bitch some more pussy.

Otter
12-03-2009, 10:29 AM
I already told you that I'm not going to go back and look for it. So, bitch some more pussy.

You're such a ****ing liar. Do I need to get a mod involved? Accusing someone of threatening you is pretty serious.

Just as serious I'd imagine when it's a false accusation.

KC native
12-03-2009, 10:59 AM
You're such a ****ing liar. Do I need to get a mod involved? Accusing someone of threatening you is pretty serious.

Just as serious I'd imagine when it's a false accusation.

It's not false. They were something to the effect of if I wanted to change something (and you lumped me in with illegals) that I would have to go through you and I believe you mentioned your firearm in that post too (could be wrong on that part). Where I come from a statement like that is a threat and isn't thrown around lightly. I guess for internet billy badass's such as yourself it's par for the course and I highly doubt you would ever say something like that to my face.

Otter
12-03-2009, 11:05 AM
It's not false. They were something to the effect of if I wanted to change something (and you lumped me in with illegals) that I would have to go through you and I believe you mentioned your firearm in that post too (could be wrong on that part). Where I come from a statement like that is a threat and isn't thrown around lightly. I guess for internet billy badass's such as yourself it's par for the course and I highly doubt you would ever say something like that to my face.

I'm not getting into another slapping match with you for the simple reason it's futile. You're like arguing with a 2 year old.

It's funny you keep pushing this accusation you can't back up. You're abnormalities are shining though even through text. Let it be known, you bring it up again I'm reporting it to mods so be prepared to prove it. I don't enjoy being accused of anything I didn't do.

I assure you I would say anything I've said in this paragraph or any past one to your face.

KC native
12-03-2009, 11:07 AM
I'm not getting into another slapping match with you for the simple reason it's futile. You're like arguing with a 2 year old.

It's funny you keep pushing this accusation you can't back up. You're abnormalities are shining though even through text. Let it be known, you bring it up again I'm reporting it to mods so be prepared to prove it. I don't enjoy being accused of anything I didn't do.

I assure you I would say anything I've said in this paragraph or any past one to your face.

I doubt it and the post is there. I'm not taking the time to search for it because you want me to jump for you.

On running to the mods, ROFL Why don't you cry a little more? It might help your case.

Otter
12-03-2009, 11:15 AM
I have some illegals to get deported after work, I have to catch up here or I'd stick around.

One at a time.

Tah,Tah

Pennywise
12-03-2009, 11:26 AM
I have some illegals to get deported after work, I have to catch up here or I'd stick around.

One at a time.

Tah,Tah


Godspeed.

dirk digler
12-03-2009, 11:43 AM
I just am amazed that we seem to accept no responsibility to report untill it is somehow requires.

For example, I have no way to know this but say a Policeman does determine someone he stops is illegal and gets name address etc. He may not be required in his job to report them but can he not as a private citizen do so? And same for the welfare worker you mention.

There is a seperation between what we can and cannot do in the confines of our jobs but that does not mean we cannot be good responsible citizens in the 16 hours we are not working, right?

That is really surprising to you? Most people don't want to get involved so they just look the other way especially if it doesn't effect them

vailpass
12-03-2009, 11:49 AM
I doubt it and the post is there. I'm not taking the time to search for it because you want me to jump for you.

On running to the mods, ROFL Why don't you cry a little more? It might help your case.

Do you ever tire of being universally disliked?
Your support of illegals is revolting but fits your illegal drug doing, under-employed image to a T.

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 11:53 AM
Well Dirk, that seems to be selectivly true. But in this case of illegals, it seems that there is a great opportunity for the average Joe to actually do something by reporting the illegals and keeping the heat on to find out what happened as a result.

Now discount it if you want but dont we have the opportunity to raise the issue and make it real? I think its time for the empowerment people feel as a result of the summers tax protests and anti HC protests, tea parties and all that to be empowered on this and force the government to take action.

Are we incabable of raising some hell anymore?

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 12:28 PM
That is really surprising to you? Most people don't want to get involved so they just look the other way especially if it doesn't effect them

Unless they are stolen emails

dirk digler
12-03-2009, 02:20 PM
Well Dirk, that seems to be selectivly true. But in this case of illegals, it seems that there is a great opportunity for the average Joe to actually do something by reporting the illegals and keeping the heat on to find out what happened as a result.

Now discount it if you want but dont we have the opportunity to raise the issue and make it real? I think its time for the empowerment people feel as a result of the summers tax protests and anti HC protests, tea parties and all that to be empowered on this and force the government to take action.

Are we incabable of raising some hell anymore?

The problem is the average Joe couldn't tell an illegal Mexican alien from a legal resident from India.

Listen I am all for raising hell about illegal aliens I just don't think the average American is going to start turning them in. Mostly because they hire them to do cheap work so they aren't going to ruin that.

I know that you in the same general area as I do and there is alot of Tyson chicken farms around. I bet you could find alot of illegals in there so call ICE and turn them in.

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Most of the tyson contractors I know have irish, german and other such names and have almost no employees. But that just the ones I know.

Your point is valid however. I don't in my day to day have much contact with anyone who hires or uses Mexican labor. I think if I did know and were sure, I'd report them and do it just to see what happens and how the "system" operates.

The only Mexicans I come in contact regularly with run a resturaunt and are super people all legal and who can get mad as hell over the immigration issue. They probably act on that issue a lot more American than those of us who were born here.

orange
12-03-2009, 02:31 PM
Most of the tyson contractors I know have irish, german and other such names and have almost no employees. But that just the ones I know.

Your point is valid however. I don't in my day to day have much contact with anyone who hires or uses Mexican labor. I think if I did know and were sure, I'd report them and do it just to see what happens and how the "system" operates.

The only Mexicans I come in contact regularly with run a resturaunt and are super people all legal and who can get mad as hell over the immigration issue. They probably act on that issue a lot more American than those of us who were born here.


Here's a serious question for you. If you "turn in" someone you think is illegal (because after all, you've never seen his docs) and that person - who is here legally - is hassled by the authorities, should he be able to recover damages from you? What if you do it just for spite? Should brown-skinned Americans be subject to harassment from folks like you because they're brown-skinned? Maybe all brown-skinned people should be required to supply documentation to anyone who demands it?

Of course, I'm sure you don't want to be a racist. Perhaps EVERYONE should be required to carry proof of legal residence and supply it on demand? What say you, komrade?

Sully
12-03-2009, 02:38 PM
So hoW do I know if someone is legal, or not?

dirk digler
12-03-2009, 02:38 PM
Most of the tyson contractors I know have irish, german and other such names and have almost no employees. But that just the ones I know.

Your point is valid however. I don't in my day to day have much contact with anyone who hires or uses Mexican labor. I think if I did know and were sure, I'd report them and do it just to see what happens and how the "system" operates.

The only Mexicans I come in contact regularly with run a resturaunt and are super people all legal and who can get mad as hell over the immigration issue. They probably act on that issue a lot more American than those of us who were born here.

I swear I see illegal Mexicans in there picking up the chickens and crap. I don't know anyone who would want that job outside of illegals.

I guarantee you that if you see Mexicans working in restaurants most of the time they are illegal. I used to manage a restaurant and knowingly hired illegals, well not technically I guess, they had all the legal paperwork and went through the clearing house fine. There is an excellent restaurant here in Clinton called El Camino Real. The entire staff is Mexican, the waiters speak decent English but the busboys and cooks speak no English and there is always new ones coming and going so I know this is just a stop for the illegals to work. Call it a pipeline. Do you think I should call ICE and turn them in?

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 02:49 PM
Here's a serious question for you. If you "turn in" someone you think is illegal (because after all, you've never seen his docs) and that person - who is here legally - is hassled by the authorities, should he be able to recover damages from you? What if you do it just for spite? Should brown-skinned Americans be subject to harassment from folks like you because they're brown-skinned? Maybe all brown-skinned people should be required to supply documentation to anyone who demands it?

Of course, I'm sure you don't want to be a racist. Perhaps EVERYONE should be required to carry proof of legal residence and supply it on demand? What say you, komrade?

I think the issue is do you know? If you don't then no you shouldnt be running about turning in everyone who speaks Spanish. So no, I'd fall on the side that there should be no harrassment as you call it if you are correct before you turn them in. And if they are here legally, do you automatically assume they will be "hasseled"?

The rule of law is still innocent till proven guilty and that would and is the role of the proper authority. They deal with that issue all the time so I would have to assume they understand how to do their job.

Legal immigrants do have documentation. Thats why they are called "documented"

HonestChieffan
12-03-2009, 02:51 PM
I swear I see illegal Mexicans in there picking up the chickens and crap. I don't know anyone who would want that job outside of illegals.

I guarantee you that if you see Mexicans working in restaurants most of the time they are illegal. I used to manage a restaurant and knowingly hired illegals, well not technically I guess, they had all the legal paperwork and went through the clearing house fine. There is an excellent restaurant here in Clinton called El Camino Real. The entire staff is Mexican, the waiters speak decent English but the busboys and cooks speak no English and there is always new ones coming and going so I know this is just a stop for the illegals to work. Call it a pipeline. Do you think I should call ICE and turn them in?

No. Sounds like you are under the impression they are illegal but not sure. So in that case no you cant be sure. They may be totally legal.

Otter
12-03-2009, 02:51 PM
Here's a serious question for you. If you "turn in" someone you think is illegal (because after all, you've never seen his docs) and that person - who is here legally - is hassled by the authorities, should he be able to recover damages from you? What if you do it just for spite? Should brown-skinned Americans be subject to harassment from folks like you because they're brown-skinned? Maybe all brown-skinned people should be required to supply documentation to anyone who demands it?

Of course, I'm sure you don't want to be a racist. Perhaps EVERYONE should be required to carry proof of legal residence and supply it on demand? What say you, komrade?

I think this has more to do with someone trying to collect food stamps, open a bank account, get a job, drivers license etc. where it's obvious that they are presenting false documentation or ineligible for the goods or service.

dirk digler
12-03-2009, 02:57 PM
No. Sounds like you are under the impression they are illegal but not sure. So in that case no you cant be sure. They may be totally legal.

True but I doubt it.

To be honest I don't know what I would do if I knowingly knew someone was illegal I guess it would depend on the situation.

orange
12-03-2009, 03:17 PM
So no, I'd fall on the side that there should be no harrassment as you call it if you are correct before you turn them in. And if they are here legally, do you automatically assume they will be "hasseled"?

I think this has more to do with someone trying to collect food stamps, open a bank account, get a job, drivers license etc. where it's obvious that they are presenting false documentation or ineligible for the goods or service.

Good answers and show some thought.

But it still points out the problem with laws like this. Just how far are government clerks supposed to go to investigate applicants? If we're going to make them police, then they should get hazard pay.

As for this particular law, I don't think it can be upheld. It may be thrown out on some technicality about it's enactment, but even if not, there is one glaring red flag to me.

People can sue government workers on suspicion that they're not doing their job? Since when?

KC native
12-03-2009, 03:26 PM
I think this has more to do with someone trying to collect food stamps, open a bank account, get a job, drivers license etc. where it's obvious that they are presenting false documentation or ineligible for the goods or service.

Of which they will fail at if they submit false documentation. For food stamps the ID's must match what's in the social security database (name, DOB, and SS#).

As far as the bank account goes there is no nationality restriction as long as the financial institution can prove who that individual is and they are in compliance with our money laundering laws and tax laws. That's due to the Patriot Act.

vailpass
12-03-2009, 04:21 PM
A foreigner needs to provide a SS# to open a US bank account or submit a form W-8ben. This law has nothing to do with bank accounts or any private concerns. It was written and passed as a measure to lessent the sever financial drain illeglas place on an already burdened Arizona state budget.

KCWolfman
12-03-2009, 06:32 PM
The problem is the average Joe couldn't tell an illegal Mexican alien from a legal resident from India.

Listen I am all for raising hell about illegal aliens I just don't think the average American is going to start turning them in. Mostly because they hire them to do cheap work so they aren't going to ruin that.

I know that you in the same general area as I do and there is alot of Tyson chicken farms around. I bet you could find alot of illegals in there so call ICE and turn them in.
Actually any small business employer or manager with a large company has all kimds of data available.
Posted via Mobile Device

vailpass
12-04-2009, 08:45 AM
Actually any small business employer or manager with a large company has all kimds of data available.
Posted via Mobile Device

E-verify run on every single employee is the method for discovering illegal applicants and preventing them from infiltrating your workplace. Following the law by having every new hire complete an I-9 as a contingency to starting work is encumbent upon all employers.