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HonestChieffan
12-07-2009, 10:57 AM
http://www.thefoxnation.com/politics/2009/12/07/did-obama-plan-non-religious-christmas-wh

jjjayb
12-07-2009, 11:01 AM
President Obama and the First Family were planning a “non-religious Christmas,” according to Social Secretary Desiree Rogers. Ms. Rogers reportedly told a gathering of former social secretaries that the Obamas did not intend on putting the Nativity scene on display – a longtime East Room tradition.

The account was reported in the Fashion and Style section of The New York Times. The White House confirmed to the Times that there had been internal discussions about making Christmas more inclusive – but in the end – tradition won out – and the Nativity scene is once again in its traditional East Room spot.

Give me a break. More inclusive? It's a Christian holiday. Why would you make it "non-religious" to be more inclusive? What's next, having an orgy at an abstinence gathering to make abstinence more inclusive?

AndChiefs
12-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Upon reading the whole article. How dare that school try to get presents for needy children. The nerve of these people trying mix church and state.

BigRedChief
12-07-2009, 11:08 AM
Upon reading the whole article. How dare that school try to get presents for needy children. The nerve of these people trying mix church and state.The seperation of church and state is a bedrock foundation of our country. but, there has to be some common sense applied to that principle. Putting up a nativity scene is not a threat to seperation of church and state....

Having the Catholic Bishops sit in a room, in congress, right beside the room where legislatures are debating the abortion amendment to the health care reform bill and making changes and then going to the room where the Caltholic bishops are at and running the legislation past the Bishops to see if its okay with them is a much more and bigger threat to seperation of church and state than some nativity scene.

Iowanian
12-07-2009, 11:10 AM
What a douchebag.

vailpass
12-07-2009, 11:13 AM
Can we survive 3 more years of this waffling, spineless empty suit?

Pitt Gorilla
12-07-2009, 11:17 AM
Love the comments on the site:

"Get out of the White House BOY YOU UN-AMERICAN MUSLEM GO HOME !@"

AndChiefs
12-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Love the comments on the site:

"Get out of the White House BOY YOU UN-AMERICAN MUSLEM GO HOME !@"

That's awful.

BigRedChief
12-07-2009, 11:19 AM
Can we survive 3 more years of this waffling, spineless empty suit?We survived Bush. We can survive anything.

Pitt Gorilla
12-07-2009, 11:19 AM
That's awful.You should read the entire compilation. It's actually pretty funny.

SNR
12-07-2009, 11:20 AM
Last week at Synagogue, I talked to the rabbi about making Chaunakah more inclusive this year by talking about Jesus, and maybe adding something good to eat at passover meals instead of the lame-ass flatbread we get every year. He said no. He must be intolerant.

L.A. Chieffan
12-07-2009, 11:24 AM
the christians came to this country first, before the jews and the muslems. if we wanna put up a bible scene in our white house i dont see a problem with it. they shouldve got off their lazy asses and came to america before us

Donger
12-07-2009, 11:25 AM
That's awful.

Indeed. They spelled Muslim wrong.

Iowanian
12-07-2009, 11:27 AM
Last week at Synagogue, I talked to the rabbi about making Chaunakah more inclusive this year by talking about Jesus, and maybe adding something good to eat at passover meals instead of the lame-ass flatbread we get every year. He said no. He must be intolerant.


I think you need to ask KwanzaClaus to bring you a bigger coffee filter, that one must be crushing your brain.

Reaper16
12-07-2009, 11:38 AM
the christians came to this country first, before the jews and the muslems. if we wanna put up a bible scene in our white house i dont see a problem with it. they shouldve got off their lazy asses and came to america before us
Your argument reduces past the point you want it to. Remember those pesky Indians?

L.A. Chieffan
12-07-2009, 11:53 AM
Your argument reduces past the point you want it to. Remember those pesky Indians?

but they were godless savages. we did them a favor

HonestChieffan
12-07-2009, 11:57 AM
Next time he says someting like "We pray for (insert something that makes him look good)", a press person should ask since you dont ever go to church and you didnt want to recognize Christmas as the day we celebrate the birth of Christ, when you pray Mr President, who do you talk to?

vailpass
12-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Your argument reduces past the point you want it to. Remember those pesky Indians?

I remeber conquering them and winning the right to make our beliefs the custom of the land. Yes I recall that well.

L.A. Chieffan
12-07-2009, 12:03 PM
I remeber conquering them and winning the right to make our beliefs the custom of the land. Yes I recall that well.

they had their chance to domesticate wild animals, improve agriculture techniques, advance their skills in metallurgy and become immune to viruses way before we ever showed up. lazy asses

Baby Lee
12-07-2009, 12:03 PM
Loved that bit on SNL this week, where they had 'the Muppets' singing a religious Christmas song, then 'Dorka Dorka Morph Dorphed' all the religious lyrics.

ROFL

BigRedChief
12-07-2009, 12:07 PM
Last week at Synagogue, I talked to the rabbi about making Chaunakah more inclusive this year by talking about Jesus, and maybe adding something good to eat at passover meals instead of the lame-ass flatbread we get every year. He said no. He must be intolerant.
Your Jewish? that explains a lot.:D

Baby Lee
12-07-2009, 12:10 PM
Your Jewish? that explains a lot.:D

You spell you're, your? That explains a lot. :D

BigRedChief
12-07-2009, 12:12 PM
You spell you're, your? That explains a lot. :DI've got a spelling and gramar exception from the Chiefs Planet academy. Look it up.:harumph:

Baby Lee
12-07-2009, 12:14 PM
I've got a spelling and gramar exception from the Chiefs Planet academy. Look it up.:harumph:

Apparently. ROFL

Donger
12-07-2009, 12:19 PM
Obama family lights National Christmas Tree

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091204/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obamas_tree_lighting

Taco John
12-07-2009, 12:30 PM
I know a lot of people who celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. It was originally a secular holiday in history (Yuletide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule)). In historical truth, Christmas trees are celebrations of Yule, not celbrations of Christmas. Most of the stuff surrounding Christmas are the pagan symbols, not religious symbols.

L.A. Chieffan
12-07-2009, 12:32 PM
I know a lot of people who celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. It was originally a secular holiday in history (Yuletide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule)). In historical truth, Christmas trees are celebrations of Yule, not celbrations of Christmas. Most of the stuff surrounding Christmas are the pagan symbols, not religious symbols.

jesus is the reason for the season dude. christians conquered the pagans

Donger
12-07-2009, 12:37 PM
jesus is the reason for the season dude. christians conquered the pagans

Do Christians find it interesting that the date of Jesus' birth and the winter solstice are very close to each other?

L.A. Chieffan
12-07-2009, 12:40 PM
Do Christians find it interesting that the date of Jesus' birth and the winter solstice are very close to each other?

we wanted to make the transition to the correct worship as easy and convenient as possible

BucEyedPea
12-07-2009, 12:58 PM
Last week at Synagogue, I talked to the rabbi about making Chaunakah more inclusive this year by talking about Jesus, and maybe adding something good to eat at passover meals instead of the lame-ass flatbread we get every year. He said no. He must be intolerant.

I am interested in bringing my daughter to a Hanukka service in a synagogue as part of her course on religions. How do I figure out where to go and would we be allowed in?

We just finished ME studies so it would fit nicely. I will also bring her to a Catholic High Mass too.

BigRedChief
12-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Apparently. ROFLThat one was on purpose, I swear. :)

BigCatDaddy
12-07-2009, 01:07 PM
Do Christians find it interesting that the date of Jesus' birth and the winter solstice are very close to each other?

Actually we just celebrate his birth on that day, but believe it's actually sometime in April. God saved a pagan holiday.

SNR
12-07-2009, 02:38 PM
I'm not actually Jewish :evil:

My mom's side is, but they converted to Christianity two generations ago. Ethnically, though, I'm 25% Jewish.

BucEyedPea
12-07-2009, 02:43 PM
I'm not actually Jewish :evil:

My mom's side is, but they converted to Christianity two generations ago. Ethnically, though, I'm 25% Jewish.

I thought if one was just part Jewish on the mother's side one is considered a Jew?

FishingRod
12-07-2009, 02:46 PM
I thought if one was just part Jewish on the mother's side one is considered a Jew?

Well that was close enough for the Germans.

BucEyedPea
12-07-2009, 02:48 PM
Well that was close enough for the Germans.

No that's according to some Jews and their own literature.

FishingRod
12-07-2009, 02:54 PM
No that's according to some Jews and their own literature.

Could be, I know the Germans had a pretty low % needed to call someone a Jew. I find the idea of what different people consider necessary to be a white, black, or Jewish person fascinating in a car wreck sort of way.

Jilly
12-07-2009, 02:58 PM
Next time he says someting like "We pray for (insert something that makes him look good)", a press person should ask since you dont ever go to church and you didnt want to recognize Christmas as the day we celebrate the birth of Christ, when you pray Mr President, who do you talk to?

HE DID RECOGNIZE IT AS THE BIRTH OF CHRIST....IF YOU READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE YOU WILL SEE HIS QUOTE ON WHAT CHRISTMAS IS....for Fuck's sake....read the WHOLE thing before making a conclusion.

Jilly
12-07-2009, 02:59 PM
Here's the quote:

“The President spoke movingly about the scene the cr่che depicts in his remarks at the lighting of the National Christmas Tree last week: Tonight, we celebrate a story that is as beautiful as it is simple. The story of a child born far from home to parents guided only by faith, but who would ultimately spread a message that has endured for more than 2,000 years – that no matter who we are or where we are from, we are each called to love one another as brother and sister. While this story may be a Christian one, its lesson is universal. It speaks to the hope we share as a people. And it represents a tradition that we celebrate as a country – a tradition that has come to represent more than any one holiday or religion, but a season of brotherhood and generosity to our fellow citizens.”

Read more: http://www.foxnewsradio.com/2009/12/07/obama-wanted-non-religious-christmas/#ixzz0Z2iLe8eZ

HonestChieffan
12-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Different event Jilly. What he says at one place has no bearing at the next, He cannot be defended on his clear antipathy for those who are christian. He has black theology and Rev Wright in him and that cannot be disputed.

Jilly
12-07-2009, 03:04 PM
Handy Manny said Happy Holidays.....guess I should boycott Disney. Damn people with all their different ethnicities and celebrations and such. How dare them live in America.

Jilly
12-07-2009, 03:05 PM
Different event Jilly. What he says at one place has no bearing at the next, He cannot be defended on his clear antipathy for those who are christian. He has black theology and Rev Wright in him and that cannot be disputed.

It DOES have bearing. As you can see from reading the whole article...it wasn't Obama saying it needed to be more inclusive....the article says, "IT has been a discussion in the past...."

Mr. Flopnuts
12-07-2009, 03:07 PM
I'm not actually Jewish :evil:

My mom's side is, but they converted to Christianity two generations ago. Ethnically, though, I'm 25% Jewish.

Oh, shut up big nose!

BucEyedPea
12-07-2009, 03:16 PM
Could be, I know the Germans had a pretty low % needed to call someone a Jew. I find the idea of what different people consider necessary to be a white, black, or Jewish person fascinating in a car wreck sort of way.
Then you feel that "car wreck sort of way" when Jews do it too?
The Jews do have rules on this but not in a negative way.

From a Jewish site.

Who is a Jew?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

Judaism 101 (http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm)

kcfanXIII
12-07-2009, 03:27 PM
as someone who does not believe in the immaculate conception, or the divinity of christ, or the resurrection, i have no problem celebrating christmas. what i do believe is that jesus was a man, who taught us to love our fellow men and women, the way we love our brothers and sisters. these teachings are universal, and why as a non christian, i don't get too hyped when someone says merry christmas. i still celebrate with my family, i still donate money to the salvation army, and local foodbanks. i've never understood why non christians have such a big problem with this time of year. granted i hate christmas, but not because of any religous meanings. has more to do with the music, weather, and the pressure to buy presents for every one you know.


in other words, let people celebrate how they celebrate. i hate how a nativity scene seems to be the focus of a debate, EVERY YEAR. not like that plastic baby jesus is gonna up and influence policy.

Jilly
12-07-2009, 03:33 PM
Christians have a hard time with this time of year.....I'm a hardcore Christian and I have a hard time with putting Merry Christmas on a best buy ad....or saying it in stores...why? Because it doesn't need to be any more commercialized than it is. SAY happy holidays for all I care....it just means, to me, that Christ's name isn't once again splattered all over something to make money. Christmas is a sacred time of year TO A CHRISTIAN and I do not understand why Christians feel the need for everyone to go around saying Merry Christmas, when they don't know what it means and don't celebrate the core of that holiday anyways? Shouldn't those words be reserved for the people who truly understand it and truly mean it? For me, as a Christian, I want the words to be used less frequently because it means that when they are said they hold more meaning.

HonestChieffan
12-07-2009, 03:36 PM
This has nothing to do with the thread. I like it however.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PxZyE6Jgabo/Sx0URLQGmbI/AAAAAAAAM74/H0w5Q_bdHzg/s400/theo1.gif

New boss......

BucEyedPea
12-07-2009, 03:56 PM
This has nothing to do with the thread. I like it however.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PxZyE6Jgabo/Sx0URLQGmbI/AAAAAAAAM74/H0w5Q_bdHzg/s400/theo1.gif

New boss......

I like it too! :clap:

Reaper16
12-07-2009, 06:59 PM
I like it too! :clap:
Its completely unfair, though. Obama has been consistent with respect to Afghanistan. Its one of the few issues that campaign Obama and President Obama have been on the same page with.

SNR
12-07-2009, 07:13 PM
Oh, shut up big nose!Rep for the Life of Brian reference :thumb:

SNR
12-07-2009, 07:15 PM
I thought if one was just part Jewish on the mother's side one is considered a Jew?No idea. It could be true. At what point does that stop, though?

BucEyedPea
12-07-2009, 07:20 PM
Its completely unfair, though. Obama has been consistent with respect to Afghanistan. Its one of the few issues that campaign Obama and President Obama have been on the same page with.

Yeah that's true eventhough he had to really think about it.
I just don't support it since the Taliban has been making overatures for peace to get us out, including cutting all ties to AQ. So it's just not okay.

BucEyedPea
12-07-2009, 07:21 PM
No idea. It could be true. At what point does that stop, though?

I don't know. I just read it on a Jewish site that has FAQs.

BigRedChief
12-07-2009, 07:50 PM
No idea. It could be true. At what point does that stop, though?No worries, you are cool. As long as the Nazi's doesn't come back into power. :)

mikey23545
12-07-2009, 07:58 PM
No worries, you are cool. As long as the Nazi's doesn't come back into power. :)

Too late.

Mr. Flopnuts
12-07-2009, 08:14 PM
Rep for the Life of Brian reference :thumb:

Such a great movie...................

Mr. Flopnuts
12-07-2009, 08:15 PM
JEHOVAH JEHOVAH JEHOVAH!!!

bowener
12-07-2009, 08:21 PM
Silly nativity scene, Jesus was born in the spring.

SNR
12-07-2009, 10:15 PM
No worries, you are cool. As long as the Nazi's doesn't come back into power. :)Geesh. I know people are just being stupid, but we gotta stop making Hitler charicatures out of presidents. It makes me nervous.

BigRedChief
12-08-2009, 06:39 AM
Geesh. I know people are just being stupid, but we gotta stop making Hitler charicatures out of presidents. It makes me nervous.Yeah Obama is going to start WWIII, try to exterminate whole race/ethnic groups on a global scale. Same thing. I can see the comparison.:doh!:

NewChief
12-08-2009, 07:14 AM
Christians have a hard time with this time of year.....I'm a hardcore Christian and I have a hard time with putting Merry Christmas on a best buy ad....or saying it in stores...why? Because it doesn't need to be any more commercialized than it is. SAY happy holidays for all I care....it just means, to me, that Christ's name isn't once again splattered all over something to make money. Christmas is a sacred time of year TO A CHRISTIAN and I do not understand why Christians feel the need for everyone to go around saying Merry Christmas, when they don't know what it means and don't celebrate the core of that holiday anyways? Shouldn't those words be reserved for the people who truly understand it and truly mean it? For me, as a Christian, I want the words to be used less frequently because it means that when they are said they hold more meaning.

Good point. Our church is trying to "unplug" Christmas. Our parenting class just did a study using this book (http://www.amazon.com/Unplug-Christmas-Machine-Complete-Putting/dp/0688109616).

banyon
12-08-2009, 08:40 AM
The account was reported in the Fashion and Style section of The New York Times. The White House confirmed to the Times that there had been internal discussions about making Christmas more inclusive – but in the end – tradition won out – and the Nativity scene is once again in its traditional East Room spot.

So, basically the thread title is a lie.

I guess it's easier to be a partisan hack who can't participate in serious political discussions when you get to make up your opponent's positions to what you imagine them to be.

BigRedChief
12-08-2009, 09:19 AM
So, basically the thread title is a lie.

I guess it's easier to be a partisan hack who can't participate in serious political discussions when you get to make up your opponent's positions to what you imagine them to be.ROFL

scott free
12-08-2009, 09:26 AM
Do Christians find it interesting that the date of Jesus' birth and the winter solstice are very close to each other?

All part of the early church's attempt to tie Christian rites into pagan traditions to make the transition more palatable for pagans.

I've read that many scholars place Jesus birth in the fall, not late December.

As long He is recognized...

Jilly
12-08-2009, 02:25 PM
Good point. Our church is trying to "unplug" Christmas. Our parenting class just did a study using this book (http://www.amazon.com/Unplug-Christmas-Machine-Complete-Putting/dp/0688109616).

That looks like an awesome book. I'm gonna order it.

CHIEF4EVER
12-08-2009, 04:49 PM
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO: All Employees
DATE: October 1, 2009

RE: Gala Christmas Party

I'm happy to inform you that the company Christmas Party will take place on December 23rd, starting at noon in the private function room at the Grill House. There will be a cash bar and plenty of drinks! We'll have a small band playing traditional carols... feel free to sing along. And don't be surprised if our CEO shows up dressed as Santa Claus! A Christmas tree will be lit at 1:00 PM. Exchanges of gifts among employees can be done at that time; however, no gift should be over $10.00 to make the giving of gifts easy for everyone's pockets. This gathering is only for employees!

Our CEO will make a special announcement at that time!

Merry Christmas to you and your family,

Patty



Company Memo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO: All Employees
DATE: October 2, 2009

RE: Gala Holiday Party

In no way was yesterday's memo intended to exclude our Jewish employees. We recognize that Hanukkah is an important holiday, which often coincides with Christmas, though unfortunately not this year. However, from now on, we're calling it our " Holiday Party." The same policy applies to any other employees who are not Christians and to those still celebrating Reconciliation Day. There will be no Christmas tree and no Christmas carols will be sung. We will have other types of music for your enjoyment.

Happy now?

Happy Holidays to you and your family,

Patty


Company Memo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO: All Employees
DATE: October 3, 2009

RE: Holiday Party

Regarding the note I received from a member of Alcoholics Anonymous requesting a non-drinking table, you didn't sign your name. I'm happy to accommodate this request, but if I put a sign on a table that reads, "AA Only", you wouldn't be anonymous anymore. How am I supposed to handle this?

Somebody?

And sorry, but forget about the gift exchange, no gifts are allowed since the union members feel that $10.00 is too much money and the executives believe $10.00 is a little chintzy.

REMEMBER: NO GIFTS EXCHANGE WILL BE ALLOWED.


Company Memo


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
To: All Employees
DATE: October 4, 2009

RE: Generic Holiday Party

What a diverse group we are! I had no idea that December 20th begins the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which forbids eating and drinking during daylight hours. There goes the party! Seriously, we can appreciate how a luncheon at this time of year does not accommodate our Muslim employees' beliefs. Perhaps the Grill House can hold off on serving your meal until the end of the party or else package everything for you to take it home in little foil doggy baggy. Will that work?

Meanwhile, I've arranged for members of Weight Watchers to sit farthest from the dessert buffet, and pregnant women will get the table closest to the restrooms.

Gays are allowed to sit with each other. Lesbians do not have to sit with Gay men, each group will have their own table. Yes, there will be flower arrangement for the Gay men's table.

To the person asking permission to cross dress, the Grill House asks that no cross-dressing be allowed, apparently because of concerns about confusion in the restrooms. Sorry.

We will have booster seats for short people.

Low-fat food will be available for those on a diet.

I am sorry to report that we cannot control the amount of salt used in the food . The Grill House suggests that people with high blood pressure taste a bite first.

There will be fresh "low sugar" fruits as dessert for diabetics, but the restaurant cannot supply "no sugar" desserts. Sorry!

Did I miss anything?!?!?

Patty

Company Memo


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO: All F*%^ing Employees
DATE: October 5, 2009

RE: The Fucking Holiday Party

I've had it with you vegetarian pricks!!! We're going to keep this party at the Grill House whether you like it or not, so you can sit quietly at the table furthest from the "grill of death," as you so quaintly put it, and you'll get your fucking salad bar, including organic tomatoes. But you know, tomatoes have feelings, too. They scream when you slice them. I've heard them scream. I'm hearing them scream right NOW!

The rest of you fucking weirdos can kiss my ass. I hope you all have a rotten holiday!

Drive drunk and die,

The B*tch from H*ll!!!


Company Memo

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: Joan Bishop, Acting Human Resources Director
DATE: October 6, 2009
RE: Patty Lewis and Holiday Party

I'm sure I speak for all of us in wishing Patty Lewis a speedy recovery and I'll continue to forward your cards to her.

In the meantime, management has decided to cancel our Holiday Party and give everyone the afternoon of the 23rd off with full pay.

Happy Holidays!

Joan

memyselfI
12-08-2009, 04:51 PM
Such a great movie...................

Yup.

BigRedChief
12-08-2009, 04:57 PM
Yup.You realize that this is all BS. There is a nativity scene in the White house.

memyselfI
12-08-2009, 05:00 PM
You realize that this is all BS. There is a nativity scene in the White house.

I was commenting on the movie. The thread is a bore.

BigRedChief
12-08-2009, 05:17 PM
I was commenting on the movie. The thread is a bore.as is most of his threads.:)

Norman Einstein
12-08-2009, 07:59 PM
You realize that this is all BS. There is a nativity scene in the White house.

Any word from the ACLU? How about Rev. Wright?

HolyHandgernade
12-09-2009, 10:44 PM
I wonder how many Christians would be confused if they removed all the Pagan traditions of the Winter Solstice celebration traditions? Let's see, no tree, no gift giving, no savior born on the day; under a star; to a virgin; attended by three astrologers/wisemen, certainly no merry-making....just a mass. No wonder the Christians "incorporated" it, probably have mass defections today if they did try to separate the paganism from the "religious holiday"!

-HH

Norman Einstein
12-10-2009, 03:17 AM
I wonder how many Christians would be confused if they removed all the Pagan traditions of the Winter Solstice celebration traditions? Let's see, no tree, no gift giving, no savior born on the day; under a star; to a virgin; attended by three astrologers/wisemen, certainly no merry-making....just a mass. No wonder the Christians "incorporated" it, probably have mass defections today if they did try to separate the paganism from the "religious holiday"!

-HH

In my opinion you just don't get Christianity. Christmas is a day we celebrate a day that has been chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. Because it has become a traditional celebration has no impact with me regarding his birth. Often we don't celebrate as most do, it isn't a big deal, what is a big deal is the impact that Christ has on my every day life. For me every day is Christmas, for me every day is Easter. It's the who, not the what.

HolyHandgernade
12-10-2009, 11:02 AM
In my opinion you just don't get Christianity. Christmas is a day we celebrate a day that has been chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. Because it has become a traditional celebration has no impact with me regarding his birth. Often we don't celebrate as most do, it isn't a big deal, what is a big deal is the impact that Christ has on my every day life. For me every day is Christmas, for me every day is Easter. It's the who, not the what.

Well, IMO, you're wrong, I do get Christianity, I used to be a Christian, and I fully respect someone's choice to express reverence in the way they see most fit. My response has nothing to do with what it does for anyone's life, my response is for those who get all hot and bothered because others celebrate "Christmas" but aren't Christians. The only thing originally "Christian" about "Christmas", is the name. Everything else is a borrowed tradition. And you know what? I like them. I'm glad they are there. I don't know why Christians just can't be happy the rest of like to celebrate a time that honors "peace on earth and goodwill towards men". I get that Christ represents that for you and for Christians. But, for many of us heathens, Christmas is still a great holiday because of the higher symbolism it has represented, even before Christ was allegedly born.

I like saying "Merry Christmas" more than I like saying "Happy Holidays" or "Happy Solstice". There's just something warm and fuzzy about the word "Christmas". So if the meaning of Christmas is "peace on earth and goodwill towards men", why do we have to argue about who "Christmas" belongs to? Can't we just be happy about the common sentiment it is supposed to convey? For those who take it as a more religious occasion, does it really sully it because the rest of us wanted tree trimming, gift giving, and feasting associated with it as well?

Merry Christmas.

vailpass
12-10-2009, 11:26 AM
I wonder how many Christians would be confused if they removed all the Pagan traditions of the Winter Solstice celebration traditions? Let's see, no tree, no gift giving, no savior born on the day; under a star; to a virgin; attended by three astrologers/wisemen, certainly no merry-making....just a mass. No wonder the Christians "incorporated" it, probably have mass defections today if they did try to separate the paganism from the "religious holiday"!

-HH

Could you be any less informed?

jjjayb
12-10-2009, 11:37 AM
Well, IMO, you're wrong, I do get Christianity, I used to be a Christian, and I fully respect someone's choice to express reverence in the way they see most fit. My response has nothing to do with what it does for anyone's life, my response is for those who get all hot and bothered because others celebrate "Christmas" but aren't Christians. The only thing originally "Christian" about "Christmas", is the name. Everything else is a borrowed tradition. And you know what? I like them. I'm glad they are there. I don't know why Christians just can't be happy the rest of like to celebrate a time that honors "peace on earth and goodwill towards men". I get that Christ represents that for you and for Christians. But, for many of us heathens, Christmas is still a great holiday because of the higher symbolism it has represented, even before Christ was allegedly born.

I like saying "Merry Christmas" more than I like saying "Happy Holidays" or "Happy Solstice". There's just something warm and fuzzy about the word "Christmas". So if the meaning of Christmas is "peace on earth and goodwill towards men", why do we have to argue about who "Christmas" belongs to? Can't we just be happy about the common sentiment it is supposed to convey? For those who take it as a more religious occasion, does it really sully it because the rest of us wanted tree trimming, gift giving, and feasting associated with it as well?

Merry Christmas.

Hey, I like the idea of being a vegetarian, but I still like to eat beef, pork and chicken. I'm just a meat eating vegetarian. :shake:

NewChief
12-10-2009, 11:39 AM
Well, IMO, you're wrong, I do get Christianity, I used to be a Christian, and I fully respect someone's choice to express reverence in the way they see most fit. My response has nothing to do with what it does for anyone's life, my response is for those who get all hot and bothered because others celebrate "Christmas" but aren't Christians. The only thing originally "Christian" about "Christmas", is the name. Everything else is a borrowed tradition. And you know what? I like them. I'm glad they are there. I don't know why Christians just can't be happy the rest of like to celebrate a time that honors "peace on earth and goodwill towards men". I get that Christ represents that for you and for Christians. But, for many of us heathens, Christmas is still a great holiday because of the higher symbolism it has represented, even before Christ was allegedly born.

I like saying "Merry Christmas" more than I like saying "Happy Holidays" or "Happy Solstice". There's just something warm and fuzzy about the word "Christmas". So if the meaning of Christmas is "peace on earth and goodwill towards men", why do we have to argue about who "Christmas" belongs to? Can't we just be happy about the common sentiment it is supposed to convey? For those who take it as a more religious occasion, does it really sully it because the rest of us wanted tree trimming, gift giving, and feasting associated with it as well?

Merry Christmas.

I think you might have the objections of Christians backwards. They don't object to non-believers celebrating Christmas. They object to non-believers not celebrating Christmas and/or refusing to reference or acknowledge the Christ part of the holiday.

Pitt Gorilla
12-10-2009, 12:32 PM
I honestly don't believe that anyone actually gets upset when they hear "Happy Holidays." It's a pleasant greeting that necessarily includes Christmas (a simple Venn Diagram or set notation should make this abundantly clear). I simply don't believe that people are that stupid/petty.

blaise
12-10-2009, 12:46 PM
I honestly don't believe that anyone actually gets upset when they hear "Happy Holidays." It's a pleasant greeting that necessarily includes Christmas (a simple Venn Diagram or set notation should make this abundantly clear). I simply don't believe that people are that stupid/petty.

me neither, and I can't believe people are stupid/petty enough to file lawsuits over Christmas trees in airports, but they are.

Pitt Gorilla
12-10-2009, 12:54 PM
me neither, and I can't believe people are stupid/petty enough to file lawsuits over Christmas trees in airports, but they are.I think those people are a pretty small minority as well. I mean, we have Christmas trees all over the University here and nobody gets upset. Some people like to be offended just to be offended, but I don't think there are as many of those people as some would have you believe.

HolyHandgernade
12-10-2009, 01:42 PM
Could you be any less informed?

Possibly.

HolyHandgernade
12-10-2009, 01:46 PM
I think you might have the objections of Christians backwards. They don't object to non-believers celebrating Christmas. They object to non-believers not celebrating Christmas and/or refusing to reference or acknowledge the Christ part of the holiday.

Like I said, let's separate the pagan traditions from the Christian ones, the Christians can go to church while the paganites can have the gift giving/tree trimming/feasting. The holiday celebration was originally "pagan", not Christian. Or did history not really begin until Jesus allegedly took his first breath?

Baby Lee
12-10-2009, 01:53 PM
I honestly don't believe that anyone actually gets upset when they hear "Happy Holidays." It's a pleasant greeting that necessarily includes Christmas (a simple Venn Diagram or set notation should make this abundantly clear). I simply don't believe that people are that stupid/petty.

For those who do get upset, I don't think it's so much the expression in itself as the notion that the expression has been mandated from above [not THAT above] or deliberately chosen by the utterer, with the [presumed] line of thought that acknowledging the Christian nature of the event might offend some, and those sensibilities supercede those who would like the Christian nature of the event acknowledged.

It's not the text but the subtext. Like if you know someone doesn't approve of your significant other, and any and every time the subject comes up, they refer to 'her' or 'she.' Technically a proper appellation, but you know the significance of not referring to her by name.

Pitt Gorilla
12-10-2009, 02:14 PM
For those who do get upset, I don't think it's so much the expression in itself as the notion that the expression has been mandated from above [not THAT above] or deliberately chosen by the utterer, with the [presumed] line of thought that acknowledging the Christian nature of the event might offend some, and those sensibilities supercede those who would like the Christian nature of the event acknowledged.

It's not the text but the subtext. Like if you know someone doesn't approve of your significant other, and any and every time the subject comes up, they refer to 'her' or 'she.' Technically a proper appellation, but you know the significance of not referring to her by name.People are getting upset not only by what people aren't saying, but also why THEY think the people aren't saying it? You have got to be kidding. I can't imagine being insecure/paranoid enough to let something like that bother me.

In your example, you appear to be referring to a particular person. I suppose that a few particular people could be saying "Happy Holidays" for devious reasons. However, to extrapolate that to some sort of norm seems ridiculous.

Baby Lee
12-10-2009, 02:39 PM
People are getting upset not only by what people aren't saying, but also why THEY think the people aren't saying it? You have got to be kidding. I can't imagine being insecure/paranoid enough to let something like that bother me.

In your example, you appear to be referring to a particular person. I suppose that a few particular people could be saying "Happy Holidays" for devious reasons. However, to extrapolate that to some sort of norm seems ridiculous.

I think it stems from more scripted, controlled events, like when corporate policy is for advertising to say Happy Holidays and greeters are urged to use said greeting rather than Merry Christmas. Or if people making scripted public remarks opt for HH rather than MC. Then it could roll downstream where it seems like everyone has gotten a message from said controlled occurances regarding the PC way to greet each other.

BTW, FTR, if you don't want to know why people do or think things, don't ask. I'm just trying to answer your question as best I can devine.

Pitt Gorilla
12-10-2009, 02:50 PM
I think it stems from more scripted, controlled events, like when corporate policy is for advertising to say Happy Holidays and greeters are urged to use said greeting rather than Merry Christmas. Or if people making scripted public remarks opt for HH rather than MC. Then it could roll downstream where it seems like everyone has gotten a message from said controlled occurances regarding the PC way to greet each other.

BTW, FTR, if you don't want to know why people do or think things, don't ask. I'm just trying to answer your question as best I can devine.Eh, I wasn't really asking as I don't think there is a rational answer. People like to be offended and I don't think there is any way to change that. Most people I know are fine with Happy Holidays as they realize that Christmas is, in fact, a Holiday contained in that greeting.

It's difficult to fault a corporate policy on greeting that has the goal of positively reaching more potential customers.

Baby Lee
12-10-2009, 02:58 PM
Eh, I wasn't really asking as I don't think there is a rational answer. People like to be offended and I don't think there is any way to change that. Most people I know are fine with Happy Holidays as they realize that Christmas is, in fact, a Holiday contained in that greeting.

It's difficult to fault a corporate policy on greeting that has the goal of positively reaching more potential customers.

There's also a double offense. The offense that they decided that not offending nonChristians is superior to acknowledging the Christian holiday is the first step. The second is the realization that, in light of the possibility that that decision might offend 'people like them' the [the speaker, the corporation, etc] decided not offending nonChristians is still superior to offending some Christians.

Terribilis
12-10-2009, 03:14 PM
http://media.venganza.org/3220card1.gif

DJ's left nut
12-10-2009, 03:17 PM
Wouldn't making a 'non-religous' Christmas be similar to making a 'vegetarian' steak?

I mean c'mon, it's root word is the very foundation of the religion you're attempting to pull from it.

Can't the damn progressives just go away already?

KC native
12-10-2009, 03:19 PM
Wouldn't making a 'non-religous' Christmas be similar to making a 'vegetarian' steak?

I mean c'mon, it's root celebrations are all taken from pagan holidays.

Can't the damn Christians just go away already?


FYP

Pitt Gorilla
12-10-2009, 03:22 PM
There's also a double offense. The offense that they decided that not offending nonChristians is superior to acknowledging the Christian holiday is the first step. The second is the realization that, in light of the possibility that that decision might offend 'people like them' the [the speaker, the corporation, etc] decided not offending nonChristians is still superior to offending some Christians.I don't think most people are that self-absorbed. These corporations, ostensibly, decided that not offending nonwhateverotherreligionthatcelebratessomethingbigaroundthistime is superior to acknowledging the afore-mentioned holiday. Your second point follows similarly. It would take someone fairly devoid of empathy not to see how such an argument effects various groups, essentially, the same.

vailpass
12-10-2009, 03:22 PM
Possibly.

:D
Touche.

Baby Lee
12-10-2009, 04:02 PM
I don't think most people are that self-absorbed. These corporations, ostensibly, decided that not offending nonwhateverotherreligionthatcelebratessomethingbigaroundthistime is superior to acknowledging the afore-mentioned holiday. Your second point follows similarly. It would take someone fairly devoid of empathy not to see how such an argument effects various groups, essentially, the same.

Thing is, Christmas is the Holiday in play. Hannukah has evolved into a bigger deal than intended because Jewish children wanted the gift exchanging experience their play and schoolmates were engaging in. Zwanzaa was created out of whole cloth.

And these corporations are welcoming them into their stores for the buying frenzy attendent to the celebration, and the HH thing is essentially 'thanks for saving our bacon by commercializing your religious observance, but we hope you understand when we refuse to acknowledge the reason underpinning said bacon-saving, because some other people might be offended, and if that offends you, we apologize but when those people get mad they really get mad, and while you are, again, the ones saving our bacon, they could really make a stink so please don't be offended, or if you are offended be so kind as to continue to save our bacon in the process. Thanks and HH."

DJ's left nut
12-10-2009, 04:03 PM
FYP

Cool, so this again gets back to the whole "I don't like something therefore nobody in the world can have it" syndrome that the progressives seem to favor?

It's not your holiday. You clearly don't believe in it and that's fine. So just let the rest of the vast majority of the country enjoy it.

It just makes no sense to me how militant your side of this issue is. I have absolutely no religious affiliation whatsoever, yet I see no reason why I should go piss all over those that do.

But feel free to continue to carry yourself with a sense of haughty self-rightousness that would gall your average Orange County housewife.

Baby Lee
12-10-2009, 04:05 PM
Cool, so this again gets back to the whole "I don't like something therefore nobody in the world can have it" syndrome that the progressives seem to favor?

It's not your holiday. You clearly don't believe in it and that's fine. So just let the rest of the vast majority of the country enjoy it.

It just makes no sense to me how militant your side of this issue is. I have absolutely no religious affiliation whatsoever, yet I see no reason why I should go piss all over those that do.

But feel free to continue to carry yourself with a sense of haughy self-rightousness that would gall your average Orange County housewife.

I dunno, those people who think wrestling is real are a menace and need to be taken down a peg or two, and certainly don't deserve acknowledgement in the marketplace of ideas.

DEN 44 KC 13
12-10-2009, 04:16 PM
44-13ROFL

Pitt Gorilla
12-10-2009, 07:29 PM
Thing is, Christmas is the Holiday in play. Hannukah has evolved into a bigger deal than intended because Jewish children wanted the gift exchanging experience their play and schoolmates were engaging in. Zwanzaa was created out of whole cloth.

And these corporations are welcoming them into their stores for the buying frenzy attendent to the celebration, and the HH thing is essentially 'thanks for saving our bacon by commercializing your religious observance, but we hope you understand when we refuse to acknowledge the reason underpinning said bacon-saving, because some other people might be offended, and if that offends you, we apologize but when those people get mad they really get mad, and while you are, again, the ones saving our bacon, they could really make a stink so please don't be offended, or if you are offended be so kind as to continue to save our bacon in the process. Thanks and HH."I think you've made a pretty good case for how these folks could rationalize their need to feel offended, but I don't think most people are going to buy it. Christmas is a subset of Holidays, even if it comprises a major component of the set. I can't imagine that "needing" more than that will ever seem less than silly/pathetic.

KC native
12-10-2009, 08:32 PM
Cool, so this again gets back to the whole "I don't like something therefore nobody in the world can have it" syndrome that the progressives seem to favor?

It's not your holiday. You clearly don't believe in it and that's fine. So just let the rest of the vast majority of the country enjoy it.

It just makes no sense to me how militant your side of this issue is. I have absolutely no religious affiliation whatsoever, yet I see no reason why I should go piss all over those that do.

But feel free to continue to carry yourself with a sense of haughty self-rightousness that would gall your average Orange County housewife.

I'm not militant about it. I don't give a shit if someone believes in god, jesus christ, or allah. This was a joke of a thread so my posting went along with that. These "war on xmas" threads are getting tiresome. It's annoying to see people whine about a whether or not a certain display is up or whether a business says Merry Xmas.

That being said I don't like to see ANY religious display in/on our public buildings. If it's a private enterprise then they can put up or say anything they want and I won't be offended.

Norman Einstein
12-10-2009, 09:15 PM
Well, IMO, you're wrong, I do get Christianity, I used to be a Christian, and I fully respect someone's choice to express reverence in the way they see most fit. My response has nothing to do with what it does for anyone's life, my response is for those who get all hot and bothered because others celebrate "Christmas" but aren't Christians. The only thing originally "Christian" about "Christmas", is the name. Everything else is a borrowed tradition. And you know what? I like them. I'm glad they are there. I don't know why Christians just can't be happy the rest of like to celebrate a time that honors "peace on earth and goodwill towards men". I get that Christ represents that for you and for Christians. But, for many of us heathens, Christmas is still a great holiday because of the higher symbolism it has represented, even before Christ was allegedly born.

I like saying "Merry Christmas" more than I like saying "Happy Holidays" or "Happy Solstice". There's just something warm and fuzzy about the word "Christmas". So if the meaning of Christmas is "peace on earth and goodwill towards men", why do we have to argue about who "Christmas" belongs to? Can't we just be happy about the common sentiment it is supposed to convey? For those who take it as a more religious occasion, does it really sully it because the rest of us wanted tree trimming, gift giving, and feasting associated with it as well?

Merry Christmas.

Really sorry you used to be a Christian, the fact that you claim to be a former Christian is disappointing. You may not have a love for God anymore but I assure you that he has not given up on you.

Happy Hollidays.

HolyHandgernade
12-10-2009, 11:29 PM
Really sorry you used to be a Christian, the fact that you claim to be a former Christian is disappointing. You may not have a love for God anymore but I assure you that he has not given up on you.

Happy Hollidays.

You don't have to feel for sorry for me, I still like most Christians and the higher ideals I believe Christianity represents. I just don't confine my relationship to the divine within the context of a single view, nor believe the archetypical story as historical. So, to be fair, I'm not really a "Christian" in the sense I do not believe a divine child was born of an actual virgin, that he began a ministry at age 30/33 and was actually crucified and ascended bodily into heaven. Those are religious metaphors to me, not actual historical events, any more than Lao Tsu was born as an 800 year old man. To qualify as a "Christian", I think, at a minimum, one actually believes there was an historical Jesus in some capacity (even if embellished by the Gospel writers), and believing he is no more than a spiritual archetype sort of outs one as a "member".

So, I say that I am not Christian out of respect for those who identify themselves as such. Culturally, Christianity runs through my veins, which is probably why I critique it more than say, Hinduism. It is from Christian thought than any aspirations beyond mythic membership religion have allowed themselves to flourish. So, I am actually grateful for that base. I know others think quite the opposite, because I take exception between labeling religious beliefs as "historical", especially to give them an essence of authority, from a more divine function attempting to explain the unexplainable. That is, not taking things literally and attempting to understand the spiritual truth the metaphor attempts to convey.

I have a deep spiritual conviction, I just approach it differently than you do. Yours is right for where you are at, and mine is right for where I am at. It has nothing to do with me "giving up on God" or "God still waiting for me", that's just how you interpret my situation, not the way at all I view my relationship to the divine. My relationship transcends but includes Christianity. I could, if I so desired, talk about my relationship completely within a Christian context if I chose to do so. But, I could also talk about it in a Buddhist context, or a Taoist context, or a Neo-Platonic context, whereas if I only identified myself as "Christian", I would have difficulty allowing for an interpretation or experience of the divine that seemed to be not fully accounted for within the Christian dogma.

So, while I understand why you feel sorry for me, I hope you take some comfort knowing the disassociation of the label "Christian" in no way indicates a disassociation to the divine aspect common to the One, the Each and the All.

Merry Christmas

Norman Einstein
12-11-2009, 03:27 AM
You don't have to feel for sorry for me, I still like most Christians and the higher ideals I believe Christianity represents. I just don't confine my relationship to the divine within the context of a single view, nor believe the archetypical story as historical. So, to be fair, I'm not really a "Christian" in the sense I do not believe a divine child was born of an actual virgin, that he began a ministry at age 30/33 and was actually crucified and ascended bodily into heaven. Those are religious metaphors to me, not actual historical events, any more than Lao Tsu was born as an 800 year old man. To qualify as a "Christian", I think, at a minimum, one actually believes there was an historical Jesus in some capacity (even if embellished by the Gospel writers), and believing he is no more than a spiritual archetype sort of outs one as a "member".

So, I say that I am not Christian out of respect for those who identify themselves as such. Culturally, Christianity runs through my veins, which is probably why I critique it more than say, Hinduism. It is from Christian thought than any aspirations beyond mythic membership religion have allowed themselves to flourish. So, I am actually grateful for that base. I know others think quite the opposite, because I take exception between labeling religious beliefs as "historical", especially to give them an essence of authority, from a more divine function attempting to explain the unexplainable. That is, not taking things literally and attempting to understand the spiritual truth the metaphor attempts to convey.

I have a deep spiritual conviction, I just approach it differently than you do. Yours is right for where you are at, and mine is right for where I am at. It has nothing to do with me "giving up on God" or "God still waiting for me", that's just how you interpret my situation, not the way at all I view my relationship to the divine. My relationship transcends but includes Christianity. I could, if I so desired, talk about my relationship completely within a Christian context if I chose to do so. But, I could also talk about it in a Buddhist context, or a Taoist context, or a Neo-Platonic context, whereas if I only identified myself as "Christian", I would have difficulty allowing for an interpretation or experience of the divine that seemed to be not fully accounted for within the Christian dogma.

So, while I understand why you feel sorry for me, I hope you take some comfort knowing the disassociation of the label "Christian" in no way indicates a disassociation to the divine aspect common to the One, the Each and the All.

Merry Christmas

All the same, I feel you have missed the concept. Man can use his intellect to explain away many things, I hope your higher concept isn't something that will take the label and your association along with you to hell.

I, for one, am not ashamed to admit I have faith in God, you know the traditional type faith.

Happy Hanukkah

cookster50
12-11-2009, 06:32 AM
No worries, you are cool. As long as the Nazi's doesn't come back into power. :)

Especially Zombie Nazis!!!

HolyHandgernade
12-11-2009, 04:53 PM
All the same, I feel you have missed the concept. Man can use his intellect to explain away many things, I hope your higher concept isn't something that will take the label and your association along with you to hell.

I, for one, am not ashamed to admit I have faith in God, you know the traditional type faith.

Happy Hanukkah

Of course you do, certainty is a prerequisite in the way you approach it. My approach isn't an intellectual concept, that is exactly what one has to overcome, the primary association with the ego. But, thanks for the hell warning, nothing like touting your religion as "fire insurance".

Norman Einstein
12-11-2009, 10:08 PM
Of course you do, certainty is a prerequisite in the way you approach it. My approach isn't an intellectual concept, that is exactly what one has to overcome, the primary association with the ego. But, thanks for the hell warning, nothing like touting your religion as "fire insurance".

Fire insurance? Not quite, but you still don't get the point.

Hippy Happy Holidays

DJ's left nut
12-13-2009, 09:13 AM
Fire insurance? Not quite, but you still don't get the point.

Hippy Happy Holidays

Gotta be honest, you're the kind of guy that keeps me away from any organized religion.

I've spent several years trying to figure out what I think about the whole concept.

Every time I get close to a resolution, some guy like you comes along and just sends me running away screaming.

The man knows his stuff. He's been on your side of this issue (and I'd venture to guess you have not been on his). He has very real and reasonable reasons to believe what he does.

And your response is "you don't get the point".

Yes he does. He simply disagrees with you and has provided an exceptionally reasonable rationale for it.

Oh well, I guess every militant needs a polar opposite. For every person on the left that bitches about other people being happy with their decisions, there's somebody like you that feels inclined to castigate anyone that dares not accept your worldview.

Norman Einstein
12-13-2009, 05:00 PM
Gotta be honest, you're the kind of guy that keeps me away from any organized religion.

I've spent several years trying to figure out what I think about the whole concept.

Every time I get close to a resolution, some guy like you comes along and just sends me running away screaming.

The man knows his stuff. He's been on your side of this issue (and I'd venture to guess you have not been on his). He has very real and reasonable reasons to believe what he does.

And your response is "you don't get the point".

Yes he does. He simply disagrees with you and has provided an exceptionally reasonable rationale for it.

Oh well, I guess every militant needs a polar opposite. For every person on the left that bitches about other people being happy with their decisions, there's somebody like you that feels inclined to castigate anyone that dares not accept your worldview.

If you are basing your whole response to religion on one person you are more shallow than anyone I've ever seen.

He doesn't get the point, he is doing his best to convince others that his way is right and denying the things he does shows zero faith and that is what it is all about.

Run from any religion, but if you are using my opinions of what others do or say you are looking in the wrong place for your base.

Sorry if you don't like my responses to hh but, in my opinion you can't have religion and deny religion all at the same time.

listopencil
12-13-2009, 05:20 PM
If you are basing your whole response to religion on one person you are more shallow than anyone I've ever seen.

He doesn't get the point, he is doing his best to convince others that his way is right and denying the things he does shows zero faith and that is what it is all about.

Run from any religion, but if you are using my opinions of what others do or say you are looking in the wrong place for your base.

Sorry if you don't like my responses to hh but, in my opinion you can't have religion and deny religion all at the same time.



So what is it exactly that you disagree with in what he has posted? He doesn't seem to be trying to convince anyone of anything. He's merely stating his beliefs and giving the reasons behind those beliefs. Honestly- I don't think you get it.

Norman Einstein
12-13-2009, 06:53 PM
So what is it exactly that you disagree with in what he has posted? He doesn't seem to be trying to convince anyone of anything. He's merely stating his beliefs and giving the reasons behind those beliefs. Honestly- I don't think you get it.

So, to be fair, I'm not really a "Christian" in the sense I do not believe a divine child was born of an actual virgin, that he began a ministry at age 30/33 and was actually crucified and ascended bodily into heaven. Those are religious metaphors to me, not actual historical events, any more than Lao Tsu was born as an 800 year old man.

It may be written as you say but the intent is to convince others of his/her way of thinking. The concept of Jesus Christ is something that has to be taken with faith as your base. He is more anti-Christian and is expousing his belief just as most Christians would.

I feel his belief is wrong just as he feels mine is wrong.

With all that being said, what's your point?

whatsmynameagain
12-13-2009, 07:25 PM
I remeber conquering them and winning the right to make our beliefs the custom of the land. Yes I recall that well.

devastating an entire civilization makes it ok, right.... Id be more than happy to chop ur nuts off shove em in ur nostrils and cut off your dick, shove it down ur throat and see about winning a right, scumbag...
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whatsmynameagain
12-13-2009, 07:29 PM
Different event Jilly. What he says at one place has no bearing at the next, He cannot be defended on his clear antipathy for those who are christian. He has black theology and Rev Wright in him and that cannot be disputed.

are u safe yet from y2k?
Posted via Mobile Device

HolyHandgernade
12-13-2009, 08:41 PM
He doesn't get the point, he is doing his best to convince others that his way is right and denying the things he does shows zero faith and that is what it is all about.

I am not trying to convince any such thing any more than you are (in fact, probably less). You substitute "faith" for "ignorance" and then try to convince the rest of us, "We just don't get your faith". I mean, there's no possibility at all that some of us may have already been at that stage, found "faith/ignorance" a little bit lacking, maybe even became disillusioned by it, but then found a way to replace ignorance with understanding, and thus continued along our own spiritual paths. I am not trying to convince anyone else to follow my path, in fact, I think I explicitly said, everyone has the right to be where they are at.

What people are noticing are your attempts to play off your ignorance as though you actually know something with flippant remarks like, "You just don't get it". How is anyone supposed to have a meaningful conversation with such an ambiguous and dismissive response? Oh wait, I got it:

No, no, no, YOU don't get it!

Doesn't that just stir the creative energies!

-HH

HolyHandgernade
12-13-2009, 08:48 PM
It may be written as you say but the intent is to convince others of his/her way of thinking. The concept of Jesus Christ is something that has to be taken with faith as your base. He is more anti-Christian and is expousing his belief just as most Christians would.

I feel his belief is wrong just as he feels mine is wrong.

With all that being said, what's your point?

See, you really don't "get it", because I don't think you are wrong. I think you are limited, but I don't think you are wrong. What you can't stand is that some people (including Jesus himself) said faith isn't the end all be all of spirituality. Understanding is the key. Do you have ears but cannot hear, eyes but cannot see? The Kingdom of God is already here yet you do not recognize it because you lack understanding and substitute the ignorance with faith. ABCs and 123s are the foundations for education as well, yet we do not just substitute faith that they will help us further our understanding. Faith can be a starting point, but it doesn't have to be the end as well.

-HH

-HH

Norman Einstein
12-14-2009, 03:08 AM
See, you really don't "get it", because I don't think you are wrong. I think you are limited, but I don't think you are wrong. What you can't stand is that some people (including Jesus himself) said faith isn't the end all be all of spirituality. Understanding is the key. Do you have ears but cannot hear, eyes but cannot see? The Kingdom of God is already here yet you do not recognize it because you lack understanding and substitute the ignorance with faith. ABCs and 123s are the foundations for education as well, yet we do not just substitute faith that they will help us further our understanding. Faith can be a starting point, but it doesn't have to be the end as well.

-HH

-HH

You don't think I'm wrong but limited? You are wrong to diss the existence of Jesus. Your point it taken but rejected, my faith may give you the feeling of superiority with your disbelief of Jesus, but you cannot be a Christian without accepting who and what he is.

If you feel the need to use your education in things outside of the Bible to explain away the writing of the Bible you are just wrong. Even though you made the statement that I was "limited" due to my faith you obviously have never stood on faith and seen results, I have.

Your denial of Christ is enough for me to understand that your approach to your stand is false.

Norman Einstein
12-14-2009, 03:11 AM
I am not trying to convince any such thing any more than you are (in fact, probably less). You substitute "faith" for "ignorance" and then try to convince the rest of us, "We just don't get your faith". I mean, there's no possibility at all that some of us may have already been at that stage, found "faith/ignorance" a little bit lacking, maybe even became disillusioned by it, but then found a way to replace ignorance with understanding, and thus continued along our own spiritual paths. I am not trying to convince anyone else to follow my path, in fact, I think I explicitly said, everyone has the right to be where they are at.

What people are noticing are your attempts to play off your ignorance as though you actually know something with flippant remarks like, "You just don't get it". How is anyone supposed to have a meaningful conversation with such an ambiguous and dismissive response? Oh wait, I got it:

No, no, no, YOU don't get it!

Doesn't that just stir the creative energies!

-HH

Oh hell no, you aren't preaching. Your stand is just as valid as your claims above - not.

It is very obvious that you do not get it. Live with your choices, I'm comfortable living with my choices and in my skin. Good luck with your eternity, I stand with my faith and hope that before you find judgment day you find the real truth to what Christianity is about.

HolyHandgernade
12-14-2009, 08:14 AM
Oh hell no, you aren't preaching. Your stand is just as valid as your claims above - not.

It is very obvious that you do not get it. Live with your choices, I'm comfortable living with my choices and in my skin. Good luck with your eternity, I stand with my faith and hope that before you find judgment day you find the real truth to what Christianity is about.

"Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war. With the cross of Jesus..."

Or is that Battle Hymn of the Republic playing in the background?

Brock
12-14-2009, 10:00 AM
Tom representing Christianity probably sets the religion back by 500 years.

BigRedChief
12-14-2009, 10:55 AM
Tom representing Christianity probably sets the religion back by 500 years.
CTTCS_WLR is - Tom?

Jilly
12-14-2009, 10:58 AM
"Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war. With the cross of Jesus..."

Or is that Battle Hymn of the Republic playing in the background?

OH MAN I hate those two hymns. I wish someone would take them out of circulation in Christian hymnals.

Jilly
12-14-2009, 11:14 AM
Well, IMO, you're wrong, I do get Christianity, I used to be a Christian, and I fully respect someone's choice to express reverence in the way they see most fit. My response has nothing to do with what it does for anyone's life, my response is for those who get all hot and bothered because others celebrate "Christmas" but aren't Christians. The only thing originally "Christian" about "Christmas", is the name. Everything else is a borrowed tradition. And you know what? I like them. I'm glad they are there. I don't know why Christians just can't be happy the rest of like to celebrate a time that honors "peace on earth and goodwill towards men". I get that Christ represents that for you and for Christians. But, for many of us heathens, Christmas is still a great holiday because of the higher symbolism it has represented, even before Christ was allegedly born.

I like saying "Merry Christmas" more than I like saying "Happy Holidays" or "Happy Solstice". There's just something warm and fuzzy about the word "Christmas". So if the meaning of Christmas is "peace on earth and goodwill towards men", why do we have to argue about who "Christmas" belongs to? Can't we just be happy about the common sentiment it is supposed to convey? For those who take it as a more religious occasion, does it really sully it because the rest of us wanted tree trimming, gift giving, and feasting associated with it as well?

Merry Christmas.

Yeah. It does. I normally agree with you, but to me it's like this. I don't take communion at a Catholic Church....why? Because I'm not Catholic. If I were to eat the bread and drink from the cup there, I would be telling them, I don't give a damn what you believe, I'll do what I want anyway. Even though I don't agree with Catholicism's view of communion, I respect their beliefs enough not to profane it.
I don't believe when people say Merry Christmas today, they really mean peace on earth and good will towards all....I think they mean, have fun with your family and I hope you get good presents. While Christmas originated with the winter solstice and coincides with many pagan ideals, the word "Christmas", means worship of Christ. So, yes, I do get offended when the word is sprawled on holiday ads meant to sell things. I DO get offended when the word is separated from the birth of Christ. I don't complain about it because I know it just is what it is, but something deep within me wonders how much people have missed. I don't believe in the historical facts of the story. I don't believe all that surrounds the birth of Christ. But I do claim that story as my story. I do claim that light as my light. And it has saddened me that the simplicity of the night Jesus was born has been overshadowed by the grandeur of commercialism and mistletoe.

Jenson71
12-14-2009, 11:25 AM
Gotta be honest, you're the kind of guy that keeps me away from any organized religion.

I've spent several years trying to figure out what I think about the whole concept.

Every time I get close to a resolution, some guy like you comes along and just sends me running away screaming.

Don't be distracted by the lowest common denominator. Don't be distracted by "certainties" of a blissful afterlife (which his whole religion is based upon). Certainties of our own righteousness, of our own path, of our superiority, these are the characteristics of the monotheists in Christianity, Islam, Judaism that produce the rebellious non-believer. I've spent several years trying to figure out what I think about the whole concept as well. I know very little, but I have read the virtues and vices, and I can recognize them. Listen to the virtuous, quickly dismiss the vicious. Follow that and you should never need to run from him again.

banyon
12-14-2009, 01:05 PM
CTTCS_WLR is - Tom?

obviously

Adept Havelock
12-14-2009, 04:47 PM
the christians came to this country first, before the jews and the muslems. if we wanna put up a bible scene in our white house i dont see a problem with it. they shouldve got off their lazy asses and came to america before us

Actually, the first people here were likely a shamanistic or animistic religious tradition, not Christian.

Shame on those foolish puritan pilgrims for not assimilating to the culture that already existed here.

Oh, and Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, and have a nice feast of Sol Invictus. :D

Sully
12-14-2009, 06:52 PM
I don't remember the details, but there was something I read that there is a theory about one of the Midwest native American tribes actually being a Jewish tribe that made its way over.

Interesting, at least.

Jenson71
12-14-2009, 07:23 PM
I don't remember the details, but there was something I read that there is a theory about one of the Midwest native American tribes actually being a Jewish tribe that made its way over.

Interesting, at least.

The Mormons are so suing for copyright infringement.

DJ's left nut
12-14-2009, 08:00 PM
Don't be distracted by the lowest common denominator. Don't be distracted by "certainties" of a blissful afterlife (which his whole religion is based upon). Certainties of our own righteousness, of our own path, of our superiority, these are the characteristics of the monotheists in Christianity, Islam, Judaism that produce the rebellious non-believer. I've spent several years trying to figure out what I think about the whole concept as well. I know very little, but I have read the virtues and vices, and I can recognize them. Listen to the virtuous, quickly dismiss the vicious. Follow that and you should never need to run from him again.

Ultimately that's the only answer.

I'm gonna just keep plugging along, I'll get my answer someday.

listopencil
12-14-2009, 08:37 PM
It may be written as you say but the intent is to convince others of his/her way of thinking. The concept of Jesus Christ is something that has to be taken with faith as your base. He is more anti-Christian and is expousing his belief just as most Christians would.

I feel his belief is wrong just as he feels mine is wrong.

With all that being said, what's your point?

My point? My "point" is that I am constantly searching for answers. Occasionally I will observe a conversation such as this one, and I will quietly observe to see if there is anyone with any insight greater than mine. Unfortunately I rarely find Christians who seem to have given much thought about their belief systems. When I do, I bring up the ethical dilemmas I have encountered while reading the Bible and contemplating Christianity. I was getting tempted to do just that in this very thread, and I was hoping that you would explain what it was that he didn't get, but you refuse. Instead you seem to attack him as he calmly and rationally explores his beliefs. In fact it is he, not you, who seems to be acting more in line with what I know of Christ's teachings.

Jenson71
12-14-2009, 09:39 PM
My point? My "point" is that I am constantly searching for answers. Occasionally I will observe a conversation such as this one, and I will quietly observe to see if there is anyone with any insight greater than mine. Unfortunately I rarely find Christians who seem to have given much thought about their belief systems. When I do, I bring up the ethical dilemmas I have encountered while reading the Bible and contemplating Christianity. I was getting tempted to do just that in this very thread, and I was hoping that you would explain what it was that he didn't get, but you refuse. Instead you seem to attack him as he calmly and rationally explores his beliefs. In fact it is he, not you, who seems to be acting more in line with what I know of Christ's teachings.

Ask away. I find many Christians who seem to have given much thought about their belief systems. Don't let a few loud ignorant ones get in the way.

Norman Einstein
12-14-2009, 10:01 PM
"Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war. With the cross of Jesus..."

Or is that Battle Hymn of the Republic playing in the background?

You still don't get it, but that's a choice you get to live with.

Cheers.

Norman Einstein
12-14-2009, 10:04 PM
My point? My "point" is that I am constantly searching for answers. Occasionally I will observe a conversation such as this one, and I will quietly observe to see if there is anyone with any insight greater than mine. Unfortunately I rarely find Christians who seem to have given much thought about their belief systems. When I do, I bring up the ethical dilemmas I have encountered while reading the Bible and contemplating Christianity. I was getting tempted to do just that in this very thread, and I was hoping that you would explain what it was that he didn't get, but you refuse. Instead you seem to attack him as he calmly and rationally explores his beliefs. In fact it is he, not you, who seems to be acting more in line with what I know of Christ's teachings.

I did answer your question but you don't seem to want to take it as the answer. AGAIN, Faith is the issue. That is the answer, it doesn't take a long disertation to explain, just Faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFCeJTEzNU

Norman Einstein
12-14-2009, 10:05 PM
Ask away. I find many Christians who seem to have given much thought about their belief systems. Don't let a few loud ignorant ones get in the way.

There is the pot calling the kettle black. Pretty ironic if you would ask me.

BigRedChief
12-15-2009, 06:36 AM
The Mormons are so suing for copyright infringement.Bibical and religious humor. ROFL

Jilly
12-15-2009, 09:15 AM
Actually, the first people here were likely a shamanistic or animistic religious tradition, not Christian.

Shame on those foolish puritan pilgrims for not assimilating to the culture that already existed here.

Oh, and Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, and have a nice feast of Sol Invictus. :D

You forgot Festivus!

Jilly
12-15-2009, 09:22 AM
I did answer your question but you don't seem to want to take it as the answer. AGAIN, Faith is the issue. That is the answer, it doesn't take a long disertation to explain, just Faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFCeJTEzNU

Ultimately, yes, faith is the answer, but to get to faith one has to ask questions. One has to be able to wrestle with the logical and the mystical. I come to my beliefs by faith, ultimately, but it was a long journey to get here and one that I am continually willing to explore. We can't answer things just by saying, I have faith and the reason that we can't do that or shouldn't do that is because that would mean we feel like we are just puppets on strings. Yes, I trust God, but I need to be able to see the reasons for doing so. I need to look at my past and see how God has been a part of it and I need to wonder about the future because in doing so, that relationship grows deeper and stronger. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The author of Hebrews 11 knew that in order for us to have faith we need to be able to hope, to dream, and to think. We need to be able to see the lives of others and wonder how they go to where they are. If we don't do that, then we just believe God controls all of what we do and we either trust it or don't. That seems, to me, like a pretty shallow way of understanding God and God's creation of us, as a human people.

BucEyedPea
12-15-2009, 10:07 AM
More inclusive by excluding the Christ in mas ? Lollygagging!
Might as well call it Winter Holiday but even that still excludes. Ban the whole holiday then.

HolyHandgernade
12-15-2009, 11:30 AM
Yeah. It does. I normally agree with you, but to me it's like this. I don't take communion at a Catholic Church....why? Because I'm not Catholic. If I were to eat the bread and drink from the cup there, I would be telling them, I don't give a damn what you believe, I'll do what I want anyway. Even though I don't agree with Catholicism's view of communion, I respect their beliefs enough not to profane it.
I don't believe when people say Merry Christmas today, they really mean peace on earth and good will towards all....I think they mean, have fun with your family and I hope you get good presents. While Christmas originated with the winter solstice and coincides with many pagan ideals, the word "Christmas", means worship of Christ. So, yes, I do get offended when the word is sprawled on holiday ads meant to sell things. I DO get offended when the word is separated from the birth of Christ. I don't complain about it because I know it just is what it is, but something deep within me wonders how much people have missed. I don't believe in the historical facts of the story. I don't believe all that surrounds the birth of Christ. But I do claim that story as my story. I do claim that light as my light. And it has saddened me that the simplicity of the night Jesus was born has been overshadowed by the grandeur of commercialism and mistletoe.

Well, I just don't think it ought to be everyone else's fault that the Church imposed "Christmas" upon the whole population for centuries by merging it with Pagan traditions to make it palatable, and now get upset because people like the goodwill inspired in the holiday through its traditional use. I don't think people say, "Merry Christmas," to reaffirm the Christ birth story to one another. It has always meant an offering of goodwill to one another, even when I considered myself a Christian. Commercialism can certainly sully many things, but I don't think the goodwill is compromised between people who exchange the greeting.

Somethings get so intertwined with one another, its impossible to detangle them and not stir up harsh feelings. Kind of like the, "In God We Trust" and "Under God" debate. Ideally, they are unconstitutional, but they are so interwoven in cultural expression now, that "correcting" the issue stirs up more bad blood than any good that could really come out of it. Same thing with the Christmas traditions. Sure, we could try and make a point that trees and gift giving an feasting are not originally Christian, and demand that people call those "Solstice Celebrations" if we wanted, but I'm sure many Christians enjoy them, and it would only cause more enmity than it was worth.

Our American Pie culture tosses them all together, it is our culture now. People say "Merry Christmas" without any religious context to it at all (or only very slight), but the default isn't always commercialism. Goodwill is (or should be) common to all creeds and sects,and while marketers might see it differently, I genuinely believe the ultimate reason people wish each other a Merry Christmas is because at least one time a year, we get reminded to strive for those higher ideals that transcend any one religion.

-HH

FishingRod
12-15-2009, 11:50 AM
You forgot Festivus!

I have the Pole.



Is is bad of me to celebrate Independence day with a friend of mine who is British? Or as he calls it "the French saved your ass war".

Jilly
12-15-2009, 02:00 PM
Well, I just don't think it ought to be everyone else's fault that the Church imposed "Christmas" upon the whole population for centuries by merging it with Pagan traditions to make it palatable, and now get upset because people like the goodwill inspired in the holiday through its traditional use. I don't think people say, "Merry Christmas," to reaffirm the Christ birth story to one another. It has always meant an offering of goodwill to one another, even when I considered myself a Christian. Commercialism can certainly sully many things, but I don't think the goodwill is compromised between people who exchange the greeting.

Somethings get so intertwined with one another, its impossible to detangle them and not stir up harsh feelings. Kind of like the, "In God We Trust" and "Under God" debate. Ideally, they are unconstitutional, but they are so interwoven in cultural expression now, that "correcting" the issue stirs up more bad blood than any good that could really come out of it. Same thing with the Christmas traditions. Sure, we could try and make a point that trees and gift giving an feasting are not originally Christian, and demand that people call those "Solstice Celebrations" if we wanted, but I'm sure many Christians enjoy them, and it would only cause more enmity than it was worth.

Our American Pie culture tosses them all together, it is our culture now. People say "Merry Christmas" without any religious context to it at all (or only very slight), but the default isn't always commercialism. Goodwill is (or should be) common to all creeds and sects,and while marketers might see it differently, I genuinely believe the ultimate reason people wish each other a Merry Christmas is because at least one time a year, we get reminded to strive for those higher ideals that transcend any one religion.

-HH


I think what bothers me the most is that so-called Christians complain about the words, Merry Christmas not being said or the nativity not being displayed, when they themselves have no idea of the meaning of any of it.

Jenson71
12-15-2009, 02:21 PM
The pagan heathens had some really great ideas, and the Christian shouldn't be ashamed in borrowing them. The pagan heathens, after all, were intelligent, rational creatures with traditions that meant a lot to them as well. And they really knew how to party, even with diluted wine.

I went to a talk with Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan, and they were talking about their recent book about what Christmas was actually like. They are appealing to the more liberal Christian tradition (Borg is an Episcopalian, and Crossan is something unique) and someone in the audience was like "How can my church go about getting rid of these old traditions and ideas like Jesus being born in a stable and etc., etc.?" Borg, wise as he is, had a good comment: There's nothing wrong with keeping the tradition. They are meaningful to many people and their lives would lose a lot of that meaning if we stripped it all away. Keeping traditions for these events is uniting and important.

For the sake of purity, some people end up making it sterile, like a nursing home. A Christian can set up a tree in their house and decorate it and give presents and still know the real meaning behind the holiday -- that God came into this world and loves us and we thank God and we reciprocate that love onto each other. And actually, if done right, the presents can be a nice symbol of that. Wholly incomplete, but a symbolic start. I'm not suggesting that a new treadmill makes our heart full of Jesus, but I do think gift-giving can be pretty special.

Norman Einstein
12-15-2009, 07:45 PM
Ultimately, yes, faith is the answer, but to get to faith one has to ask questions. One has to be able to wrestle with the logical and the mystical. I come to my beliefs by faith, ultimately, but it was a long journey to get here and one that I am continually willing to explore. We can't answer things just by saying, I have faith and the reason that we can't do that or shouldn't do that is because that would mean we feel like we are just puppets on strings. Yes, I trust God, but I need to be able to see the reasons for doing so. I need to look at my past and see how God has been a part of it and I need to wonder about the future because in doing so, that relationship grows deeper and stronger. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The author of Hebrews 11 knew that in order for us to have faith we need to be able to hope, to dream, and to think. We need to be able to see the lives of others and wonder how they go to where they are. If we don't do that, then we just believe God controls all of what we do and we either trust it or don't. That seems, to me, like a pretty shallow way of understanding God and God's creation of us, as a human people.

Thanks for letting me know that my having faith makes me a shallow Christian.

greg63
12-15-2009, 07:48 PM
I could care less how the Obamas spend their Christmas.

Norman Einstein
12-15-2009, 08:09 PM
I could care less how the Obamas spend their Christmas.

I would hope that is the general consensus here.

We all saw how he handled Halloween.

greg63
12-15-2009, 08:20 PM
I would hope that is the general consensus here.

We all saw how he handled Halloween.

I didn't; could care less about that too.

Norman Einstein
12-15-2009, 08:24 PM
I didn't; could care less about that too.

Did you see the attached pic? It was too real to even be funny, he's just out for our money!

greg63
12-15-2009, 09:19 PM
Did you see the attached pic? It was too real to even be funny, he's just out for our money!

Yeah, but it was the first I'd seen of it.

Jenson71
12-15-2009, 10:51 PM
Yeah, but it was the first I'd seen of it.

It was a fake photo. Obama never dressed like that. Neither did the First Lady.

Norman Einstein
12-16-2009, 03:27 AM
It was a fake photo. Obama never dressed like that. Neither did the First Lady.

WTF? No sense of humor? You must be one of the obots of the country.

Loosen up Francis, it was funny and to the point about what YOUR president wants from the country, we don't really know what tfh wants from the country.

greg63
12-16-2009, 04:48 AM
It was a fake photo. Obama never dressed like that. Neither did the First Lady.

I paid it no mind at all; would not have mattered to me if the photo was real.

Norman Einstein
12-16-2009, 05:31 AM
I paid it no mind at all; would not have mattered to me if the photo was real.

Too bad the obots can't take a joke. Seems like the change in the trailer in the presidents name has changed and poking fun at the WH has flipped to the other side. Bush (R) - Obama (D).

Turn about is fair play - unless you are a lib. Last president got his fair share and you didn't hear one of the libs standing up for Bush, why do they expect the other side of the equation to respect Obama now?

whatsmynameagain
12-16-2009, 05:44 AM
In my opinion you just don't get Christianity. Christmas is a day we celebrate a day that has been chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. Because it has become a traditional celebration has no impact with me regarding his birth. Often we don't celebrate as most do, it isn't a big deal, what is a big deal is the impact that Christ has on my every day life. For me every day is Christmas, for me every day is Easter. It's the who, not the what.

i bet you think your blessed too, dontcha?
Posted via Mobile Device

Norman Einstein
12-16-2009, 06:02 AM
i bet you think your blessed too, dontcha?
Posted via Mobile Device

No, I don't think so, I know I am blessed beyond measure.

Jilly
12-16-2009, 02:57 PM
Thanks for letting me know that my having faith makes me a shallow Christian.

If you're comfortable having a relationship with God like that, that's on you, not me. I was just giving my opinion.

Reaper16
12-16-2009, 03:09 PM
Ha Ha Ha! Merry Happy!

stevieray
12-16-2009, 04:04 PM
If you're comfortable having a relationship with God like that, that's on you, not me.
...sounds like something a so called Christian would say...;)..everyones relationship with God is a personal one..we all might get to Christ in different ways, but we all come to God through His Son

faith comes from reading the Word...and surrender...just like Abram surrendered his life and son..like God surrenederd His own Son, and Christ surrendered himself.

Norman Einstein
12-16-2009, 06:23 PM
If you're comfortable having a relationship with God like that, that's on you, not me. I was just giving my opinion.

I didn't say my relationship was shallow, your commentary indicated that. Your opinion sure doesn't sound like one that would be coming from an ordained minister.

More and more I see those that have a piece of paper making them legal representatives of a sect that are more dishonest than your typical sinner. I'm not sure I can handle talking to a minister that is as critical of others as you seem to be. I'd hate to be a member of your church. Where is the love your neighbor part of your comments? Where is the compassion you are supposted to espouse on as a daily trait? I don't see it, so you have talked yourself into the same position you have placed me. Of course, I'm just giving my opinion.

mlyonsd
12-16-2009, 06:24 PM
Heard a very different local commercial on the radio this morning.

It was a car dealership and her exact words were "We're putting Christ back into Christmas".

Good for them.

Norman Einstein
12-16-2009, 06:27 PM
Heard a very different local commercial on the radio this morning.

It was a car dealership and her exact words were "We're putting Christ back into Christmas".

Good for them.

If it's more than talk, that is good.

Now, wait for the anti-Christ flashback.

Jilly
12-17-2009, 08:57 AM
I didn't say my relationship was shallow, your commentary indicated that. Your opinion sure doesn't sound like one that would be coming from an ordained minister.

More and more I see those that have a piece of paper making them legal representatives of a sect that are more dishonest than your typical sinner. I'm not sure I can handle talking to a minister that is as critical of others as you seem to be. I'd hate to be a member of your church. Where is the love your neighbor part of your comments? Where is the compassion you are supposted to espouse on as a daily trait? I don't see it, so you have talked yourself into the same position you have placed me. Of course, I'm just giving my opinion.

You're the one who drew the inference that I was speaking of your faith. And my comment was simply, if you believe that about yourself, then it's your responsibility to grow and have a deeper relationship.

In MY opinion, you have no right to draw conclusions as to what kind of minister I am or that you would hate to have me as your minister. And where do you draw your conclusions that I don't show compassion? You've never heard me preach. You've never been in a situation with me where I've had to pray for you or your family. You've never been at the side of a bed with me praying for someone who was dying and holding their hands as they leave this world. Until you experience who I am as a minister, I'd rather you not comment or criticize my ability.

This is a message board. And when engaging in conversation, I'm not viewing you as a parishioner, but as someone to have a logical conversation with and to talk about issues. Believe me, if you needed a minister and you made that clear to me that that's the relationship you need with me, I would drop my opinions in a heartbeat and simply be present with you. I don't see that happening, but keep in mind as much as I judge you, you judge me and others who don't see OUR faith as you do. I can let differences go when they are met with understanding and grace, but I'm not going to do that on a message board, simply because I am so tired of the misconceptions of Christianity that people have because the voice of the moderate to progressive Christian has been overpowered and under heard.

There are many, and some on this board, who believe that they will never need Jesus in their lives because so many "Christians" have isolated them from knowing the true message with their exclusivity and lack of knowledge.

Norman Einstein
12-17-2009, 12:56 PM
You're the one who drew the inference that I was speaking of your faith. And my comment was simply, if you believe that about yourself, then it's your responsibility to grow and have a deeper relationship.

In MY opinion, you have no right to draw conclusions as to what kind of minister I am or that you would hate to have me as your minister. And where do you draw your conclusions that I don't show compassion? You've never heard me preach. You've never been in a situation with me where I've had to pray for you or your family. You've never been at the side of a bed with me praying for someone who was dying and holding their hands as they leave this world. Until you experience who I am as a minister, I'd rather you not comment or criticize my ability.

This is a message board. And when engaging in conversation, I'm not viewing you as a parishioner, but as someone to have a logical conversation with and to talk about issues. Believe me, if you needed a minister and you made that clear to me that that's the relationship you need with me, I would drop my opinions in a heartbeat and simply be present with you. I don't see that happening, but keep in mind as much as I judge you, you judge me and others who don't see OUR faith as you do. I can let differences go when they are met with understanding and grace, but I'm not going to do that on a message board, simply because I am so tired of the misconceptions of Christianity that people have because the voice of the moderate to progressive Christian has been overpowered and under heard.

There are many, and some on this board, who believe that they will never need Jesus in their lives because so many "Christians" have isolated them from knowing the true message with their exclusivity and lack of knowledge.

No thank you. I'd rather have a minister that I could trust, from your commentary it looks too much like you are playing both sides of the street. I know I'm not perfect, but at least I know where I stand.

Counsel your flock but don't presume to be able to be of assistance to someone you have only conversed with on the internet.

Jilly
12-17-2009, 01:15 PM
No thank you. I'd rather have a minister that I could trust, from your commentary it looks too much like you are playing both sides of the street. I know I'm not perfect, but at least I know where I stand.

Counsel your flock but don't presume to be able to be of assistance to someone you have only conversed with on the internet.

Do you not read anything? In the next sentence I said, "I don't see that happening".

And yes, I play all sides of the street and know where I stand in the midst of it. It's because I HAVE to and because well, I'm open and even excited that not everyone believes how I believe. And yes, that does create for me some permeability that perhaps isn't required of others. My job isn't to tell people how to believe, my job is to lead them to their own conclusions.

Norman Einstein
12-17-2009, 05:40 PM
Do you not read anything? In the next sentence I said, "I don't see that happening".

And yes, I play all sides of the street and know where I stand in the midst of it. It's because I HAVE to and because well, I'm open and even excited that not everyone believes how I believe. And yes, that does create for me some permeability that perhaps isn't required of others. My job isn't to tell people how to believe, my job is to lead them to their own conclusions.

Trimmed down maybe.

"I don't see that happening, but keep in mind as much as I judge you, you judge me and others who don't see OUR faith as you do."

You have used your quote out of context in this discussion, how much other things have you twisted in discussions?

Based on your writing here I do not trust you nor could I ever. Your words here would stop me from ever attending a service where you were at the pulpit.

It's not that I don't like some of the things I've seen you write, I just have a problem with someone that dances so far off the line as you seem to.

Pitt Gorilla
12-17-2009, 07:33 PM
Trimmed down maybe.

"I don't see that happening, but keep in mind as much as I judge you, you judge me and others who don't see OUR faith as you do."

You have used your quote out of context in this discussion, how much other things have you twisted in discussions?

Based on your writing here I do not trust you nor could I ever. Your words here would stop me from ever attending a service where you were at the pulpit.

It's not that I don't like some of the things I've seen you write, I just have a problem with someone that dances so far off the line as you seem to.Should everyone judge you by how you represent yourself on this board, Tom?

stevieray
12-17-2009, 07:35 PM
Should everyone judge you by how you represent yourself on this board, Tom?

...everyone is judged on how they represent themselves on this board.

Norman Einstein
12-17-2009, 08:01 PM
Should everyone judge you by how you represent yourself on this board, Tom?

No Tom, I don't think anyone should judge anyone else by how they represent themselves on this board.

If we looked at you all we would see is a jackass and I'm sure there is more to you than that. If you live for credibility and respectability on this site you are dumber than you seem.

Pitt Gorilla
12-17-2009, 09:04 PM
No Tom, I don't think anyone should judge anyone else by how they represent themselves on this board.

If we looked at you all we would see is a jackass and I'm sure there is more to you than that. If you live for credibility and respectability on this site you are dumber than you seem.Isn't that what you just did with Jilly?

Norman Einstein
12-17-2009, 09:28 PM
Isn't that what you just did with Jilly?

Isn't that what you are doing now?

Pitt Gorilla
12-17-2009, 10:53 PM
Isn't that what you are doing now?I don't recall judging you at all. Where did you read that?

Norman Einstein
12-18-2009, 05:26 AM
I don't recall judging you at all. Where did you read that?Dude! Your response comment was purely a judgment of my post. If not then why did you throw it up?

Pioli Zombie
12-18-2009, 07:32 AM
I thought if one was just part Jewish on the mother's side one is considered a Jew?
They'd still put him on the train.
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Pitt Gorilla
12-18-2009, 12:49 PM
Dude! Your response comment was purely a judgment of my post. If not then why did you throw it up?It appeared that you were judging Jilly's ability to minister due to how she represented herself on this board; I thought some clarification might be in order due to your stance on not judging people by how they represent themselves on this board.

Norman Einstein
12-18-2009, 01:14 PM
It appeared that you were judging Jilly's ability to minister due to how she represented herself on this board; I thought some clarification might be in order due to your stance on not judging people by how they represent themselves on this board.

Just bouncing back her judgment of my comments and what she felt it meant. Her words were not what you expect from a minister no matter where they are posting.

I was judging her point of view regarding whether someone was in her church or under her 'care'. As a minister you can't play both sides of the street, it damages your credibility. Look at Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker, they tried doing just that and look where it got them. Jilly is playing by the same rules they did / do.

Jilly
12-18-2009, 08:29 PM
I just want to know where's my millions then? My fancy car? Damn I'm getting robbed. That's a joke, btw.

Pioli Zombie
12-18-2009, 08:58 PM
Jilly is the first minister that made it move.
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