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View Full Version : U.S. Issues Sen. Feinstein Says It’s ‘Morally Correct’ to Force Taxpayers to Fund Abortion


petegz28
12-09-2009, 11:13 AM
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Direckshun
12-09-2009, 11:16 AM
I try to avoid two subjects like the plague around here: race and abortion.

But I'll say this -- I definitely think it's a moral obligation to pay for some abortions, particularly in the case of rape or incest or health of the mother.

Inspector
12-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Sometimes it's just more convenient to end the life of a child.

And convenience isn't free ya know.

thecoffeeguy
12-09-2009, 12:09 PM
I am embarrassed that she is my Senator. I have her and another dandy, Boxer. :cuss::cuss:

KCWolfman
12-09-2009, 12:17 PM
Is this the same Senator Feinstein who refused to see her Senior Citizen Constituents and called the police to have them removed from her office?

Diane Feinstein wouldn't know morality if it took a rancid cod from her crotch and smacked her on the face with it.
Posted via Mobile Device

alpha_omega
12-09-2009, 12:25 PM
Can't listen here at work. How does she justify that?

BucEyedPea
12-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Diane Feinstein wouldn't know morality if it took a rancid cod from her crotch and smacked her on the face with it.
Posted via Mobile Device

^^This

BigRedChief
12-09-2009, 12:55 PM
I try to avoid two subjects like the plague around here: race and abortion.

But I'll say this -- I definitely think it's a moral obligation to pay for some abortions, particularly in the case of rape or incest or health of the mother.
Going to disagree here. I believe that they have a right to make that choice, not to have the federal government pay for that choice. There could be a fund set up by Planned parrenthood, fundraisers, private contributions to privately fund those choices. I don't think the poor would be forced to have to resort to back alley hanger abortons.

RaiderH8r
12-09-2009, 01:14 PM
Taking a person's capital to fund that which is abhorrent to him is the very essence of tyranny.

KC native
12-09-2009, 01:17 PM
Taking a person's capital to fund that which is abhorrent to him is the very essence of tyranny.

Hmmmm, so Bush was a tyrant then because I found the Iraq War to be abhorrent? :hmmm:

BigRedChief
12-09-2009, 01:21 PM
Taking a person's capital to fund that which is abhorrent to him is the very essence of tyranny.I believe that killing a person to prove that killing is wrong and won't be tolerated by society is wrong and not a deterrent. But my money is used for that.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:26 PM
Going to disagree here. I believe that they have a right to make that choice, not to have the federal government pay for that choice. There could be a fund set up by Planned parrenthood, fundraisers, private contributions to privately fund those choices. I don't think the poor would be forced to have to resort to back alley hanger abortons.

It is insanely unlikely that those private contributions would be able to reach everybody who needed them. And we're also making any of the innocent victims or threatened mothers I mentioned earlier reliant on charity for them to get a procedure.

We have a moral obligation to help these women. Maybe not ALL women who seek abortions, that much I can accept. But the women in these special circumstances, definitely.

RaiderH8r
12-09-2009, 01:29 PM
I believe that killing a person to prove that killing is wrong and won't be tolerated by society is wrong and not a deterrent. But my money is used for that.

Well, you're wrong. It's not a deterrent, it's to lower recidivism and in that respect it is fool proof.

RaiderH8r
12-09-2009, 01:29 PM
It is insanely unlikely that those private contributions would be able to reach everybody who needed them. And we're also making any of the innocent victims or threatened mothers I mentioned earlier reliant on charity for them to get a procedure.

We have a moral obligation to help these women. Maybe not ALL women who seek abortions, that much I can accept. But the women in these special circumstances, definitely.

Did America run out of coat hangers and alleyways?

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:30 PM
Well, you're wrong. It's not a deterrent, it's to lower recidivism and in that respect it is fool proof.

His major point stands -- that he believes it is abhorrent to fund capital punishment, yet he does.

So, based on your definition from earlier, is he living in a tyranny?

Or should you refine exactly what you think it is to be a tyranny?

BIG_DADDY
12-09-2009, 01:30 PM
If there was ever a case for abortion it is Fineswine.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:30 PM
Did America run out of coat hangers and alleyways?

Post of the year.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:31 PM
If there was ever a case for abortion it is Fineswine.

Close second.

BigRedChief
12-09-2009, 01:35 PM
It is insanely unlikely that those private contributions would be able to reach everybody who needed them. And we're also making any of the innocent victims or threatened mothers I mentioned earlier reliant on charity for them to get a procedure.

We have a moral obligation to help these women. Maybe not ALL women who seek abortions, that much I can accept. But the women in these special circumstances, definitely.
I agree. There is a moral equation involved. But they can't just go anywhere and get an abortion. There are just a few places that do the procedure in every town. Figure out the cost and raise the money. Your moral duty is done.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:37 PM
I agree. There is a moral equation involved. But they can't just go anywhere and get an abortion. There are just a few places that do the procedure in every town. Figure out the cost and raise the money. Your moral duty is done.

And if they can't raise the money needed?

What do you tell the rape victim or endangered mother?

BigRedChief
12-09-2009, 01:38 PM
And if they can't raise the money needed?

What do you tell the rape victim or endangered mother?I don't think that would be an issue. You have a budget. You plan ahead. you know way ahead of time if there will not be the funds and then you do more fundraisers.

BIG_DADDY
12-09-2009, 01:39 PM
Close second.

Pelosi, Obama?

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:40 PM
I don't think that would be an issue. You have a budget. You plan ahead. you know way ahead of time if there will not be the funds and then you do more fundraisers.

What if you cannot find enough people to donate to this cause, and thus cannot raise enough money.

Tell me what you would say to the rape victim or endangered mother.

RaiderH8r
12-09-2009, 01:41 PM
His major point stands -- that he believes it is abhorrent to fund capital punishment, yet he does.

So, based on your definition from earlier, is he living in a tyranny?

Or should you refine exactly what you think it is to be a tyranny?

Well if his position was based on the fact that he didn't see execution as an effective means of deterrence then perhaps he can review and revise his position in light of the awesome knowledge I just dropped on him. So if he changes his mind then it renders your line of questions moot. If he doesn't change his mind then he is wrong and his opinion doesn't matter anyway. :D

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:43 PM
Well if his position was based on the fact that he didn't see execution as an effective means of deterrence then perhaps he can review and revise his position in light of the awesome knowledge I just dropped on him. So if he changes his mind then it renders your line of questions moot. If he doesn't change his mind then he is wrong and his opinion doesn't matter anyway. :D

I'm glad we had this talk.

KC Dan
12-09-2009, 01:44 PM
What if you cannot find enough people to donate to this cause, and thus cannot raise enough money.

Tell me what you would say to the rape victim or endangered mother.
Endangered mother -> The emergency room is over there

Rape victim -> The adoption clinic is over there

RaiderH8r
12-09-2009, 01:45 PM
And if they can't raise the money needed?

What do you tell the rape victim or endangered mother?

Go here:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/5/53/Alleyway.jpg

Bring this:

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1152377/2/istockphoto_1152377_coat_hanger.jpg

And this in case he doesn't have his own:

http://www.worldbarsupply.com/images/3QAluminum-Ice-Bucket.jpg

Wait for a guy, he'll be driving this:

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/creepy_van.jpg

And remember young lady, fortune favors the bold. Now go and gaff that lil' f'er.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 01:50 PM
Endangered mother -> The emergency room is over there

Rape victim -> The adoption clinic is over there

I think I'll go back to treating conversations about abortion like the plague again.

RaiderH8r
12-09-2009, 01:52 PM
I think I'll go back to treating conversations about abortion like the plague again.

Why? I provided such an easy to follow picture post for you. Come on, abortion jokes can be funny.

KC Dan
12-09-2009, 01:52 PM
I think I'll go back to treating conversations about abortion like the plague again.On that we can certainly both agree. I try to never comment on it as well because abortion and religion views cannot be changed ever. I couldn't help myself this time though. I, of course, regret it now....

petegz28
12-09-2009, 02:01 PM
And if they can't raise the money needed?

What do you tell the rape victim or endangered mother?

JFC, you are talking about 1%-2% of all abortion scenarios.

BigRedChief
12-09-2009, 02:15 PM
Go here:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/5/53/Alleyway.jpg

Bring this:

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1152377/2/istockphoto_1152377_coat_hanger.jpg

And this in case he doesn't have his own:

http://www.worldbarsupply.com/images/3QAluminum-Ice-Bucket.jpg

Wait for a guy, he'll be driving this:

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/creepy_van.jpg

And remember young lady, fortune favors the bold. Now go and gaff that lil' f'er.
This is so uncool.:shake:

Inspector
12-09-2009, 02:17 PM
What if you cannot find enough people to donate to this cause, and thus cannot raise enough money.

Tell me what you would say to the rape victim or endangered mother.

I've always wondered what percentage of abortions are performed on rape victims or endangered mothers.

My sister had a friend who would use them as a form of birth control because she didn't want to take the pill. But, I'm pretty sure that was an extreme case. And that was in the 70's too....thiings have changed, I guess.

Inspector
12-09-2009, 02:19 PM
JFC, you are talking about 1%-2% of all abortion scenarios.

I need to read the entire thread before posting. Dang!!!

:doh!:

KCWolfman
12-09-2009, 02:24 PM
I don't think the poor would be forced to have to resort to back alley hanger abortons.

I have never understood that argument. Fwiw, I do like the part I didn't quote, however. Well thought.

Back to the alley/hanger scenario, that seems silly to me. (Sic) We need to make this legal so people don't kill themselves. Shouldn't we make heroin usage, armed robbery, and shoplifting legal as well under the same conditions? After all, people die doing those things as well, shouldn't we make it safer for them?
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Inspector
12-09-2009, 02:25 PM
I have never understood that argument. Fwiw, I do like the part I didn't quote, however. Well thought.

Back to the alley/hanger scenario, that seems silly to me. (Sic) We need to make this legal so people don't kill themselves. Shouldn't we make heroin usage, armed robbery, and shoplifting legal as well under the same conditions? After all, people die doing those things as well, shouldn't we make it safer for them?
Posted via Mobile Device


Without a death, it just wouldn't seem like a very good abortion.

KCWolfman
12-09-2009, 02:36 PM
I've always wondered what percentage of abortions are performed on rape victims or endangered mothers.

My sister had a friend who would use them as a form of birth control because she didn't want to take the pill. But, I'm pretty sure that was an extreme case. And that was in the 70's too....thiings have changed, I guess.

I am not sure, but I think it was the Guttmacher that showed almost 90% of abortions are performed because now is not a good time to have a child. Guttmacher (which actually supports abortion rights) has also reported, in tandem with other groups, that child abuse cases and suicide rates of women are higher in groups of women who have abortions than those who don't. Guttmacher doesn't speculate but groups like the Finland Govt and WHO have psychologists who derive the families of those who support and have abortions tend to deem life less valuable, which seems logical to me.
Posted via Mobile Device

Garcia Bronco
12-09-2009, 02:40 PM
JFC, you are talking about 1%-2% of all abortion scenarios.

I love how people comapre a criminal act(rape) and a life or death situation(Endangered mother) to a drive through abortion clinic taxpayer paid for people who make bad decisions.

donkhater
12-09-2009, 02:44 PM
Firstly, the statement:

It’s ‘Morally Correct’ to Force Taxpayers to ...... is false no matter what the rest of the statement is.

Secondly, pete is right when he points out that the scenarios the abortionists use to justify infantcide (rape, incest, mother's health) only takes place in ~2% of all abortions.

The rest fall under the catagory of:

The woman had the 'choice' of participating in an act that could get her ass pregnant. Grow up, take responsibility for your actions and live with the consequences.

Chief Henry
12-09-2009, 02:46 PM
What do you tell the rape victim or endangered mother?


What do yo tell the endangered baby ?

petegz28
12-09-2009, 02:50 PM
The more important question is what do you tell the 98% of abortion cases who get abortions as a method of birth control?

RINGLEADER
12-09-2009, 02:51 PM
Going to disagree here. I believe that they have a right to make that choice, not to have the federal government pay for that choice. There could be a fund set up by Planned parrenthood, fundraisers, private contributions to privately fund those choices. I don't think the poor would be forced to have to resort to back alley hanger abortons.

Why is this even an issue? Obama promised that there would be no federal funding of abortions in the legislation he signs, remember?

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Beginning at 1:40...

"Under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscious laws will remain in place..." - Barack Obama in his address to the joint session of Congress

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 02:54 PM
JFC, you are talking about 1%-2% of all abortion scenarios.

So?

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 02:58 PM
The more important question is what do you tell the 98% of abortion cases who get abortions as a method of birth control?

I don't expect you to understand the litany of reasons as to why people feel the need to get abortions, nor do I expect you to know the actual percentages of different types of abortion cases. That's not the point of this anyway.

In these certain circumstances that I described (rape, incest, danger to the mother), I believe we have a moral obligation.

How that got conflated into talking about the other cases that don't fall into what I believe deserves a moral imperative, I don't know. But that's kind of how this place works.

petegz28
12-09-2009, 02:58 PM
So?

So who pays for my hospital bill if I get hit by a car?

Who pays for my hospital bill if I get shot?

petegz28
12-09-2009, 02:58 PM
I don't expect you to understand the litany of reasons as to why people feel the need to get abortions, nor do I expect you to know the actual percentages of different types of abortion cases. That's not the point of this anyway.

In these certain circumstances that I described (rape, incest, danger to the mother), I believe we have a moral obligation.

How that got conflated into talking about the other cases that don't fall into what I believe deserves a moral imperative, I don't know. But that's kind of how this place works.

No, we do NOT have a moral obligation to pay for their abortion. That is just pure bullshit. The person who committed the rape or incest is obligated, NOT the taxpayer.

HonestChieffan
12-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Senators like that wench discussing anything that has to do with morals seems odd to me.

donkhater
12-09-2009, 03:21 PM
Senators like that wench discussing anything that has to do with morals seems odd to me.

no kidding. Just put a cloak over her and she looks eerily like Emperor Palpatine.

RINGLEADER
12-09-2009, 03:58 PM
I don't expect you to understand the litany of reasons as to why people feel the need to get abortions

Which is just one of the reasons why, though I find the practice to be beyond reprehensible on moral and other grounds, I don't believe the government has any business making the practice illegal or requiring others to pay for it.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 04:16 PM
So who pays for my hospital bill if I get hit by a car?

Who pays for my hospital bill if I get shot?

You're talking to a guy who wants a single-payer healthcare system, so...

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 04:18 PM
No, we do NOT have a moral obligation to pay for their abortion. That is just pure bullshit. The person who committed the rape or incest is obligated, NOT the taxpayer.

And if we can't find out who that person is...?

Or can't find him...?

Or he can't pay because he doesn't work and doesn't have the money?

HonestChieffan
12-09-2009, 04:19 PM
And if we can't find out who that person is...?

Then why should I pay for something that you want to pay for?

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 04:20 PM
Which is just one of the reasons why, though I find the practice to be beyond reprehensible on moral and other grounds, I don't believe the government has any business making the practice illegal or requiring others to pay for it.

I just can't see how can justify making any woman who was raped pay for her own abortion.

Or a woman that has to do it out of health concerns.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 04:21 PM
Then why should I pay for something that you want to pay for?

You're just arguing another topic now.

You're just arguing that all taxes should be optional.

HonestChieffan
12-09-2009, 04:27 PM
Not at all. I dont and never have nor ever will support the taxes are optional BS. WTF are you trying to bring that into play for?

My point is that you feel its some obligation to pay for abortions. But you want to force the whole to pay for this.

Why do I have to pay for such a thing. If all you people who feel such heartfelt needs to provide abortions, then why dont you set up nice "Kill the Baby Foundation" and donate to your hearts content?

All these people who feel abortion is such a good thing should feel free to make them possible if they want. Just don't force that expence on everyone.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 04:34 PM
My point is that you feel its some obligation to pay for abortions. But you want to force the whole to pay for this.

Because that's how it works in a democracy. We can't have taxes that everybody likes.

There's a shit ton of things I think is morally reprehensible that my tax dollars go to. Why should I have to pay for the war in Iraq, when everything in my body tells me it's an awful mistake that's jeopardized so much? Why should I have to pay for the execution of a hundred prisoners over the course of my life, knowing statistically that some of them might be innocent? And on and on.

Answer those questions for me, and I guarantee you it'll be the same answer that I'd give you on the subject.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 04:35 PM
By the way, and this is why I don't get involved in abortion conversations and why I probably won't again for a long time in DC:

All these people who feel abortion is such a good thing

Die in a fire. :)

HonestChieffan
12-09-2009, 04:45 PM
You want me to die in a fire?

Mr. Flopnuts
12-09-2009, 04:47 PM
Endangered mother -> The emergency room is over there

Rape victim -> The adoption clinic is over there

Dan, I like you and I mean you no disrespect here, but that's crazy. If someone defiled your asshole and you got pregnant as a result of it would you want a constant daily reminder of the pounding your asshole took?

I know that's graphic, but rape is graphic. It changes lives in an incredibly detrimental way every, single time. No one should be forced to carry that reminder for nearly a year. The lifetime mental scarring is plenty bad enough.

KC Dan
12-09-2009, 05:04 PM
Dan, I like you and I mean you no disrespect here, but that's crazy. If someone defiled your asshole and you got pregnant as a result of it would you want a constant daily reminder of the pounding your asshole took?

I know that's graphic, but rape is graphic. It changes lives in an incredibly detrimental way every, single time. No one should be forced to carry that reminder for nearly a year. The lifetime mental scarring is plenty bad enough.I just posted the 2nd most crass thing that I could think of for effect. (I can't bring myself to post the first). Abortion discussions are a waste of time and effort to me just like reducing gov't spending. Nothing ever changes...........I got nothing on this

Taco John
12-09-2009, 05:08 PM
By the way, and this is why I don't get involved in abortion conversations and why I probably won't again for a long time in DC:



Die in a fire. :)


Now you know how I feel when my position on personal responsibility is melted down to "I gots mine, fuck all yall!"

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 05:15 PM
You want me to die in a fire?

You are adorable.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 05:17 PM
Now you know how I feel when my position on personal responsibility is melted down to "I gots mine, **** all yall!"

Now you know how I feel when my position on regulation is melted down to "capitalism is throwing out baby with the bathwater."

Taco John
12-09-2009, 05:20 PM
Now you know how I feel when my position on regulation is melted down to "capitalism is throwing out baby with the bathwater."

Except that was a direct quote you made.

Direckshun
12-09-2009, 05:22 PM
Except that was a direct quote you made.

Except that it wasn't.

stevieray
12-09-2009, 05:23 PM
....there is nothing moral about stopping a beating heart, especialy those from the weakest among us.

you take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

KCWolfman
12-09-2009, 05:37 PM
And if we can't find out who that person is...?

Or can't find him...?

Or he can't pay because he doesn't work and doesn't have the money?

Well using that logic all goods should be single payor, right?

After all who pays for stolen groceries at the store, uninsured motorists, stolen utilities?
Posted via Mobile Device

KCWolfman
12-09-2009, 05:39 PM
I just can't see how can justify making any woman who was raped pay for her own abortion.

Or a woman that has to do it out of health concerns.
But you have no problem charging someone who believes morally that you are killing a human being?

That's what cracks me up about liberals, they support your right to choose, as long as you choose what they want.
Posted via Mobile Device

KCWolfman
12-09-2009, 05:42 PM
Because that's how it works in a democracy. We can't have taxes that everybody likes.

There's a shit ton of things I think is morally reprehensible that my tax dollars go to. Why should I have to pay for the war in Iraq, when everything in my body tells me it's an awful mistake that's jeopardized so much? Why should I have to pay for the execution of a hundred prisoners over the course of my life, knowing statistically that some of them might be innocent? And on and on.

Answer those questions for me, and I guarantee you it'll be the same answer that I'd give you on the subject.

So again, it is morally reprehensible to make her pay for her own abortion, but not to tax her to pay for her abortion?

Extreme liberal logic is insane.
Posted via Mobile Device

KCWolfman
12-09-2009, 05:43 PM
Dan, I like you and I mean you no disrespect here, but that's crazy. If someone defiled your asshole and you got pregnant as a result of it would you want a constant daily reminder of the pounding your asshole took?

I know that's graphic, but rape is graphic. It changes lives in an incredibly detrimental way every, single time. No one should be forced to carry that reminder for nearly a year. The lifetime mental scarring is plenty bad enough.
It would be like if a drunk driver paralyzed you from the waist down for the rest of your life. Thank God that never happens.
Posted via Mobile Device

stevieray
12-09-2009, 05:50 PM
The lifetime mental scarring is plenty bad enough.

I agree...but compunding the situation by physically hurting another life is paying something even more horrible forward, to both child and mother.

ROYC75
12-10-2009, 12:05 PM
But you have no problem charging someone who believes morally that you are killing a human being?

That's what cracks me up about liberals, they support your right to choose, as long as you choose what they want.
Posted via Mobile Device


Liberalism knows no circumstances.

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 12:31 AM
But you have no problem charging someone who believes morally that you are killing a human being?

That's what cracks me up about liberals, they support your right to choose, as long as you choose what they want.

It's not that I have "no problem" doing it -- there are choices to be made in any democracy, and I believe when we are asked to provide for a woman who seeks an abortion for these reasons I've specified, the moral answer is to do so.

I swear to god, the theme I'm picking up in this thread is that all taxes should be optional.

Let me ask you -- why should *I* have to pay for a war I think is the dumbest idea in the world but YOU support?

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 12:34 AM
So again, it is morally reprehensible to make her pay for her own abortion, but not to tax her to pay for her abortion?

Extreme liberal logic is insane.

I can't even begin to understand the question you just asked me.

If you asked it again in a simpler way for my feeble, extreme liberal logic to understand, I will do my best to answer.

KCWolfman
12-11-2009, 12:45 AM
I can't even begin to understand the question you just asked me.

If you asked it again in a simpler way for my feeble, extreme liberal logic to understand, I will do my best to answer.

I will type slowly for you. The below scenario is per your believe that abortions should be federally funded and the possibility that a nationally funded healthcare program is initiated.

A. People are taxed for healthcare, including our victim

B. The abortions would be funded by taxes

C. Our victim is raped and wants an abortion

D. Our victim's operation is fully funded per your "believe", as you don't think she should pay for the process

E. Our victim has paid for the process as she is taxed.


Whether she pays directly or indirectly, she pays.
Labels matter more to liberals than true logic.

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 02:02 AM
I will type slowly for you. The below scenario is per your believe that abortions should be federally funded and the possibility that a nationally funded healthcare program is initiated.

A. People are taxed for healthcare, including our victim

B. The abortions would be funded by taxes

C. Our victim is raped and wants an abortion

D. Our victim's operation is fully funded per your "believe", as you don't think she should pay for the process

E. Our victim has paid for the process as she is taxed.

Whether she pays directly or indirectly, she pays.
Labels matter more to liberals than true logic.

I won't even mention the hilarious irony of you bemoaning labels and at the same time embracing the "liberal" tag every other post as if you'll lose it if it goes untouched. I'll advise you, however, to exercise a little self awareness.

I'll also say that it depends on so many scenarios, it's almost silly to discuss in the format that you want to discuss it in. I'll give you a couple examples.

Scenario 1. If the woman we're talking about is a gainfully employed woman, pays taxes, who's comfortably middle class with health insurance, than I believe an abortion under the circumstances we're talking about should be covered by her insurance plan with a deductible. To me the effect would be no different than being hit by a car -- this was an incursion that she did not ask for, and now needs a remedy to resolve the situation.

Scenario 2. If the woman we're talking about is not gainfully employed, likely doesn't pay any taxes because she's anywhere below the middle class, and is likely either in poverty or flirting with it, than I believe she should be able to seek an abortion under the circumstances we're talking about that should be mostly, if not entirely, covered by the government (i.e. the rest of us via our taxes).

So to answer your question -- the woman in Situation 2, for example, is not "taxed for healthcare," because she's not really taxed for anything. She's on welfare. The woman in Scenario 1 likely wouldn't apply to this conversation anyway.

P.S. It doesn't matter what speed you type. ;)

Taco John
12-11-2009, 02:34 AM
It's hard for me to fathom how anyone can rationalize taxing one person to pay for the abortion of another. It's like a circus of immorality.

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 02:46 AM
It's hard for me to fathom how anyone can rationalize taxing one person to pay for the abortion of another. It's like a circus of immorality.

Hey, if you're prolife without exceptions for the health of the mother or because of rape or incest, power to you. We disagree, but not much is going to change that.

KCWolfman
12-11-2009, 03:07 AM
It's hard for me to fathom how anyone can rationalize taxing one person to pay for the abortion of another. It's like a circus of immorality.

Equivocation is a requirement for loss of intelligence

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 03:45 AM
Equivocation is a requirement for loss of intelligence

Respond to my post, and make it snappy.

Norman Einstein
12-11-2009, 03:51 AM
I try to avoid two subjects like the plague around here: race and abortion.

But I'll say this -- I definitely think it's a moral obligation to pay for some abortions, particularly in the case of rape or incest or health of the mother.

Why should the taxpayers be paying for the rape or incest of others?

mlyonsd
12-11-2009, 06:52 AM
It's hard for me to fathom how anyone can rationalize taxing one person to pay for the abortion of another. It's like a circus of immorality.

Yeah I don't get the rationalization either. Maybe the thinking is once you start paying for it from public coffers everyone is implicated and guilty.

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Why should the taxpayers be paying for the rape or incest of others?

What?

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Yeah I don't get the rationalization either. Maybe the thinking is once you start paying for it from public coffers everyone is implicated and guilty.

Swing and a miss.

BigRedChief
12-11-2009, 11:57 AM
What?Don't bother...:shake:

Direckshun
12-11-2009, 12:59 PM
Don't bother...:shake:

No shit.

Inspector
12-11-2009, 02:29 PM
Dan, I like you and I mean you no disrespect here, but that's crazy. If someone defiled your asshole and you got pregnant as a result of it would you want a constant daily reminder of the pounding your asshole took?

I know that's graphic, but rape is graphic. It changes lives in an incredibly detrimental way every, single time. No one should be forced to carry that reminder for nearly a year. The lifetime mental scarring is plenty bad enough.

Good points. Should we punish the innocent child? If so, should it be the death penalty?

mlyonsd
12-11-2009, 02:48 PM
Good points. Should we punish the innocent child? If so, should it be the death penalty?

Exactly. Even in the case of rape the aborted fetus is still an innocent human. They didn't ask for the situation.

If the woman wants to pay for it herself that's her business but in no way should my tax dollars be used since I didn't have a say in the outcome.

petegz28
12-11-2009, 03:53 PM
I still don't understand why it isn't the obligation of the rapist or molestor to pay for said abortion?

The same way a person has to pay for any medical bills that a person they assaulted incurs .

Norman Einstein
12-11-2009, 10:14 PM
Why should the taxpayers be paying for the rape or incest of others?

What?

Check the time, it had been a long day and night.

Why should taxpayers be responsible for abortions caused by rape or incest? I have compassion for those that have been raped and those that have been impregnated by their family members. Those responsible, if caught, should be the first line of payment for abortions. I could not recommend an abortion in any case, but I can understand why they would be the decision of the person involved.

I think the taxpayers should be responsible for the elective operations I decide to have, after all it could be for some reason caused by situations outside my control.

Norman Einstein
12-11-2009, 10:15 PM
Don't bother...:shake:

A good name here that would relate to you is "Leon Washington".

Dig around for a while and see if you can find the reference.

Taco John
12-12-2009, 01:11 AM
Hey, if you're prolife without exceptions for the health of the mother or because of rape or incest, power to you. We disagree, but not much is going to change that.

I don't see how rape or incest make it any more moral to force people to pay for abortions that they don't want to pay for. I'm not even talking about being for or against life (which, I'm in favor of life as a general rule of thumb). I'm talking about the moralization of extortion. There is no way that I would voluntarily provide money to anyone to get an abortion.

If a woman wants an abortion, fine, go get one. But I shouldn't have money extorted from me to pay for it, regardless of her circumstances. Set up a charity fund where people like Direckshun can offer their money freely for such a thing.

I'd bet $100 dollars that Direckshun hasn't volunteered to pay for a single woman's abortion out of his own pocket though. But here he is volunteering everybody else's money. Hypocrite.

Taco John
12-12-2009, 01:53 AM
Does that seem crazy to you Direckshun? That I would expect you to lead by example and volunteer your time and money before volunteering that of others?

Society doesn't own our time and money. The only way humans can truly advance is through the free volunteer of their time and money. Your view of society forces volunteerism on people. The problem is, you don't have the knowledge tools to fathom the economic impact of that coercion. In fact, you shun those tools. And thus your way towards progress will be mired in the mud, a constant trudge towards nowhere fast. You'll always be in the thick of the bickering, arguing your superior moral approach to life while you boost for more and more coerced volunteerism - and of course, getting more and more of the same results.

For my part, I understand that there is no magic bullet that is going to solve the problems of the woman who got raped by her drunk brother. And I'm not even going to try. I favor a Republican form of government that allows states to act on their own moral jusrisdiction in these issues.

There should not be one, national, homogenized solution to complex problems. The role of the Federal Government should be to protect the idea of liberty whithin the sphere of liberty, and then leave it to the states - where the people are closer to their government - to decide for themselves.

listopencil
12-13-2009, 05:28 PM
So...tax money isn't used to enact the Death Penalty? Abortion is a legal medical procedure in the US. Feinstein is right.

donkhater
12-13-2009, 08:00 PM
So...tax money isn't used to enact the Death Penalty? Abortion is a legal medical procedure in the US. Feinstein is right.

Since you want to get technical, I would classify it as an elective medical procedure.

Saul Good
12-13-2009, 08:09 PM
So...tax money isn't used to enact the Death Penalty? Abortion is a legal medical procedure in the US. Feinstein is right.

Boob jobs are legal medical procedures, too. Do we have a moral obligation to pay for those with tax dollars as well?

petegz28
12-13-2009, 08:11 PM
Boob jobs are legal medical procedures, too. Do we have a moral obligation to pay for those with tax dollars as well?

Tht depends...are we talking about a man or woman getting the boob job? :D

Taco John
12-13-2009, 09:41 PM
Boob jobs are legal medical procedures, too. Do we have a moral obligation to pay for those with tax dollars as well?


What if the woman has small boobs through no fault of her own? Or worse, what if a man has no boobs through no fault of his own?

Clearly, the tax payer is morally on the hook to make this stuff right.

JohnnyV13
12-13-2009, 11:04 PM
Does that seem crazy to you Direckshun? That I would expect you to lead by example and volunteer your time and money before volunteering that of others?

Society doesn't own our time and money. The only way humans can truly advance is through the free volunteer of their time and money. Your view of society forces volunteerism on people. The problem is, you don't have the knowledge tools to fathom the economic impact of that coercion. In fact, you shun those tools. And thus your way towards progress will be mired in the mud, a constant trudge towards nowhere fast. You'll always be in the thick of the bickering, arguing your superior moral approach to life while you boost for more and more coerced volunteerism - and of course, getting more and more of the same results.

For my part, I understand that there is no magic bullet that is going to solve the problems of the woman who got raped by her drunk brother. And I'm not even going to try. I favor a Republican form of government that allows states to act on their own moral jusrisdiction in these issues.

There should not be one, national, homogenized solution to complex problems. The role of the Federal Government should be to protect the idea of liberty whithin the sphere of liberty, and then leave it to the states - where the people are closer to their government - to decide for themselves.

So, Taco, if your state government decided to fund abortions, you'd be fine wiht that?

Taco John
12-13-2009, 11:54 PM
So, Taco, if your state government decided to fund abortions, you'd be fine wiht that?

Not necessarily. But at least the government would be closer to me, and the chances of my voice being heard would be improved.

I don't have any interest in how California handles its social issues. I'd just as soon let them do it their way, and let Oregon do it their way, Washington do it their way, and Idaho do it their way... and so on.

KCWolfman
12-14-2009, 08:10 AM
I don't have any interest in how California handles its social issues. I'd just as soon let them do it their way, and let Oregon do it their way, Washington do it their way, and Idaho do it their way... and so on.

That is borderline madness. That sounds like state powers having control with federalism having minimal involvement other than to protect and interpret. Why that is hardly what the founding fathers wanted. :rolleyes:

BigRedChief
12-14-2009, 10:57 AM
That is borderline madness. That sounds like state powers having control with federalism having minimal involvement other than to protect and interpret. Why that is hardly what the founding fathers wanted. :rolleyes:Welll thats the isolationsm that TJ favors.

petegz28
12-14-2009, 11:37 AM
Welll thats the isolationsm that TJ favors.

As it was our founding fathers as well

Taco John
12-14-2009, 11:42 AM
That is borderline madness. That sounds like state powers having control with federalism having minimal involvement other than to protect and interpret. Why that is hardly what the founding fathers wanted. :rolleyes:


That's how they set up the Republic. You're right though. Alexander Hamilton, the Al Gore of our founding fathers, fought hard to centralize as much power as he could so he could make a lot of money. He wanted the federal government to have all the power to make decisions, and leave the states as vassals.

But the good guys didn't see it that way.

Taco John
12-14-2009, 11:43 AM
Welll thats the isolationsm that TJ favors.

Isolationism? You don't seem to understand what the word means.

KCWolfman
12-14-2009, 01:19 PM
Welll thats the isolationsm that TJ favors.

That was sarcasm.

Not just TJ, but our founding fathers as well. The federal powers were supposed to be limited. Now they are so far above all other powers that they can even dictate law without state intervention if they choose to do so (see the new EPA threat if cap and trade doesn't pass). It is sad that they have so much unfounded power - it is pathetic that many give them such power without a thought.

stevieray
12-14-2009, 01:21 PM
Government shall not.......pfffft.

Taco John
12-14-2009, 01:50 PM
That was sarcasm.

Not just TJ, but our founding fathers as well. The federal powers were supposed to be limited. Now they are so far above all other powers that they can even dictate law without state intervention if they choose to do so (see the new EPA threat if cap and trade doesn't pass). It is sad that they have so much unfounded power - it is pathetic that many give them such power without a thought.



That's a relief Russ! You had me going there for a second! ROFL

Direckshun
12-14-2009, 08:32 PM
I don't see how rape or incest make it any more moral to force people to pay for abortions that they don't want to pay for. I'm not even talking about being for or against life (which, I'm in favor of life as a general rule of thumb). I'm talking about the moralization of extortion. There is no way that I would voluntarily provide money to anyone to get an abortion.

If a woman wants an abortion, fine, go get one. But I shouldn't have money extorted from me to pay for it, regardless of her circumstances. Set up a charity fund where people like Direckshun can offer their money freely for such a thing.

I'd bet $100 dollars that Direckshun hasn't volunteered to pay for a single woman's abortion out of his own pocket though. But here he is volunteering everybody else's money. Hypocrite.

So all taxes should be optional, right?

Direckshun
12-14-2009, 08:35 PM
Society doesn't own our time and money. The only way humans can truly advance is through the free volunteer of their time and money. Your view of society forces volunteerism on people. The problem is, you don't have the knowledge tools to fathom the economic impact of that coercion. In fact, you shun those tools. And thus your way towards progress will be mired in the mud, a constant trudge towards nowhere fast. You'll always be in the thick of the bickering, arguing your superior moral approach to life while you boost for more and more coerced volunteerism - and of course, getting more and more of the same results.

For my part, I understand that there is no magic bullet that is going to solve the problems of the woman who got raped by her drunk brother. And I'm not even going to try. I favor a Republican form of government that allows states to act on their own moral jusrisdiction in these issues.

I'm a little less Articles of Confederation than you are, though.

Taco John
12-14-2009, 11:57 PM
So all taxes should be optional, right?


Participatory.

Taco John
12-14-2009, 11:58 PM
I have less moral clarity than you, though.

FYP

Taco John
12-15-2009, 12:01 AM
And as far as that goes, I personally think that the Federal Government should collect its taxes directly from the states. The federal government should have no cause to tax individuals.

Taco John
12-15-2009, 12:16 AM
Direckshun,

Would you move to a state that paid for abortions through taxing its population, paid for sex change operations for the same, provided free schooling to inner city kids, and offered basic medical services to everyone?

I would guess that such a state would be attractive to you.

So my question: what do you care if Montana isn't that state?

Direckshun
12-15-2009, 12:18 AM
Direckshun,

Would you move to a state that paid for abortions through taxing its population, paid for sex change operations for the same, provided free schooling to inner city kids, and offered basic medical services to everyone?

I would guess that such a state would be attractive to you.

So my question: what do you care if Montana isn't that state?

I'd probably move to the state that paid me the best while having the best proximity to my family.

I'm a liberal in the Ozarks. I don't let a regions politics dictate me. I try to influence them.

Direckshun
12-15-2009, 12:20 AM
Participatory.

So, optional. Got it.

Direckshun
12-15-2009, 12:21 AM
And as far as that goes, I personally think that the Federal Government should collect its taxes directly from the states. The federal government should have no cause to tax individuals.

Because you like creating needless middlemen?

Taco John
12-15-2009, 03:16 AM
So, optional. Got it.

Ah, I see. You want to take out the nuance.

Sure. It's whatever you say it is.

Taco John
12-15-2009, 03:17 AM
Because you like creating needless middlemen?

I don't consider soveriegn protectorates "needless middlemen."

BigRedChief
12-15-2009, 06:40 AM
Isolationism? You don't seem to understand what the word means.jeeezzz Lighten up Francis. Get a new sarcasm detector.