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View Full Version : U.S. Issues What is the Left's obsession with Saul Alinsky??


petegz28
02-01-2010, 03:30 PM
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Also, Rules for Radicals is the first book on a reading list for the Obama Student Recruiting program.

WTF???

HonestChieffan
02-01-2010, 03:50 PM
The progressive mind is far from the Liberal Democrat we all knew in the past. The Danger to the democrat party is that they do'nt wake up soon and turn these people out before they destroy what is left of a proud heritage.

BucEyedPea
02-01-2010, 04:37 PM
To think it was the Ds that used to be for free trade, no central bank and small govt in a populust snese, when the Rs were the party of central banks, protectionism, mercantilism aka corporatism aka cartel capitalism an empire ( altogether aka Hamiltonianism) to what the Ds are today—Hamiltonians but with with the addition of Marx and Mussolini.

BucEyedPea
02-01-2010, 04:48 PM
Also, Rules for Radicals is the first book on a reading list for the Obama Student Recruiting program.
WTF???

I just looked up his Rules for Radicals. Those things are the same things commies do when they try to create chaos in a country in order to take it over. Including lying. The commie/socialist left are the biggest liars in history. Right up to saying they're not socialists.


http://vcn.bc.ca/citizens-handbook/rules.html

Next the organizer must begin the task of agitating: rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy. This is necessary to get people to participate....Alinsky would say, “The first step in community organization is community disorganization.”


Pure manipulation.

headsnap
02-01-2010, 04:49 PM
Pure manipulation.

yup, Obama is the Agitator in Chief...

HonestChieffan
02-01-2010, 04:51 PM
Listen to any of the far left. They never admit to their goals. And usually they deny that they are even liberal at all. Even Obama refered to the HC plans as centrist.

BucEyedPea
02-01-2010, 04:52 PM
yup, Obama is the Agitator in Chief...

All their criticism of Bush was solely to gain power than to be anything much different or for any real change.

No Rules for Radicals
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BucEyedPea
02-01-2010, 04:57 PM
Listen to any of the far left. They never admit to their goals. And usually they deny that they are even liberal at all. Even Obama refered to the HC plans as centrist.

No they'll claim they're liberal. The won't claim their socialists.
A true liberal is the opposite of a socialist. The liberals are our Founders and those who wish to preserve their ideas of what our govt was intended to be.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 05:13 PM
A true liberal is the opposite of a socialist. The liberals are our Founders and those who wish to preserve their ideas of what our govt was intended to be.

It's amazing to me that you think this is some sort of argument that you can use to win a larger argument.

Anyway, pete, what's the Obama Student Recruiting program?

KILLER_CLOWN
02-01-2010, 05:16 PM
The same man whom dedicated a book to Lucifer? Chris Mathews should be proud.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 05:16 PM
It's amazing to me that you think this is some sort of argument that you can use to win a larger argument.

Anyway, pete, what's the Obama Student Recruiting program?

I didn't quite catch the name of it. I am sure you could google it. It's the community youth movement he is pushing.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 05:18 PM
I didn't quite catch the name of it. I am sure you could google it. It's the community youth movement he is pushing.

Is it like college students?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 05:32 PM
Is it like college students?

I think it is from highschool-college, yes. It might be the Organizing For America, A.K.A Obama Youth Corps.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 05:35 PM
Recommended Reading List for Organizing For America:

•Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky
•The New Organizers, Zack Exley
•Stir It Up: Lessons from Community Organizing and Advocacy, Rinku Sen

•Obama Field Organizers Plot a Miracle, Zack Exley, Huffington Post
•Dreams of My Father Chicago Chapters, Barack Hussein Obama


All of these are far left wing, Marxist books.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 05:54 PM
I think it is from highschool-college, yes. It might be the Organizing For America, A.K.A Obama Youth Corps.

That's not a youth corps. It's just a place for Obama's campaign, and I don't think the White House even deals with it.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 05:56 PM
Recommended Reading List for Organizing For America:

•Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky
•The New Organizers, Zack Exley
•Stir It Up: Lessons from Community Organizing and Advocacy, Rinku Sen

•Obama Field Organizers Plot a Miracle, Zack Exley, Huffington Post
•Dreams of My Father Chicago Chapters, Barack Hussein Obama


All of these are far left wing, Marxist books.

What makes them Marxist?

stevieray
02-01-2010, 06:05 PM
"to my progressive friends.."
"to my republican friends..."

petegz28
02-01-2010, 06:09 PM
What makes them Marxist?

Saul Alinsky (January 30, 1909, Chicago, Illinois – June 12, 1972, Carmel, California) was an American community organizer and writer. He is generally considered to be the founder of modern community organizing and has been compared to Thomas Paine as "one of the great American leaders of the nonsocialist left."[1]

:spock:

The Mad Crapper
02-01-2010, 06:13 PM
B.O. is a piece of shit.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 06:16 PM
In his book "The Obama Nation", Jerome R. Corsi, Ph.D. states, "Make no mistake about it: 'change' was always [Saul D.] Alinsky's code word for creating a socialist revolution, even if the methodology meant radicals would cut their hair, put on business suits, and run for political office. Alinsky taught [community] organizers [like Obama] to hide their true intentions in the words they spoke."

In his Rules for Radicals, Alinsky outlines his strategy in organizing, writing:

"There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families - more than seventy million people - whose income range from $5,000 to $10,000 a year [in 1971]. They cannot be dismissed by labeling them blue collar or hard hat. They will not continue to be relatively passive and slightly challenging. If we fail to communicate with them, if we don't encourage them to form alliances with us, they will move to the right. Maybe they will anyway, but let's not let it happen by default.."


Saul Alinsky' son praises Obama for learning the Alinsky Marxist model well
http://www.redcounty.com/sarasota/2008/09/saul-alinsky-son-praises-obama/

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 08:48 PM
:spock:

What's so Marxist about him? Community organizing? Comparisons to Thomas Paine? Nonsocialist?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:15 PM
What's so Marxist about him? Community organizing? Comparisons to Thomas Paine? Nonsocialist?

Keep reading, Sparky.

I guess you overlooked this??

Saul Alinsky' son praises Obama for learning the Alinsky Marxist model well
http://www.redcounty.com/sarasota/20...praises-obama/

Reaper16
02-01-2010, 09:16 PM
This shit again?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:18 PM
This shit again?

Again? Chris Matthews was the one that cited him as one of America's heroes. :eek:

alanm
02-01-2010, 09:20 PM
I think it is from highschool-college, yes. It might be the Organizing For America, A.K.A Obama Youth Corps.You mean Obama's Brownshirts.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:21 PM
You mean Obama's Brownshirts.

Touche :D

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 09:22 PM
Keep reading, Sparky.

I guess you overlooked this??

Seriously? Some editor of a right-wing website calls him Marxist, so it must be so? That's your proof?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:23 PM
Seriously? Some editor of a right-wing website calls him Marxist, so it must be so? That's your proof?

Alinksy's son is the editor of a Right Wing website? Jenson, it is a well known fact Alinsky is a Marxist. Or didn't they teach you that in your 4 years of Poly-Sci?? ROFL

RNR
02-01-2010, 09:26 PM
Again? Chris Matthews was the one that cited him as one of America's heroes. :eek:
Not a really shock Bill Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohrn are heroes to people like Barry Obama and Chris Matthews :rolleyes:

alanm
02-01-2010, 09:28 PM
Saul Alinsky, Communist Party USA member

 Identified a set of very specific rules that ordinary citizens could follow, and tactics that
ordinary citizens could employ, as a means of gaining public power
 Created a blueprint for revolution under the banner of "social change"
 Two of his most notable modern-day disciples are Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.
Born to Russian-Jewish parents in Chicago in 1909, Saul Alinsky was a Marxist who
helped establish the dual political tactics of confrontation and infiltration that characterized the
1960s and have remained central to all subsequent revolutionary movements in the United States.
Though Alinsky is generally viewed as a member of the political left, and rightfully so, his
legacy is more methodological than ideological. He identified a set of very specific rules that
ordinary citizens could follow, and tactics that ordinary citizens could employ, as a means of
gaining public power. His motto was, "The most effective means are whatever will achieve the
desired results."
Alinsky studied criminology as a graduate student at the University of Chicago, during which
time he became friendly with Al Capone and his mobsters. Ryan Lizza, senior editor of The New
Republic, offers a glimpse into Alinsky's personality: "Charming and self-absorbed, Alinsky
would entertain friends with stories -- some true, many embellished -- from his mob days for
decades afterward. He was profane, outspoken, and narcissistic, always the center of attention
despite his tweedy, academic look and thick, horn-rimmed glasses."
According to Lizza:
"Alinsky was deeply influenced by the great social science insight of his times, one developed by
his professors at Chicago: that the pathologies of the urban poor were not hereditary but
environmental. This idea, that people could change their lives by changing their surroundings,
led him to take an obscure social science phrase—'the community organization'--and turn it into,
in the words of Alinsky biographer Sanford Horwitt, 'something controversial, important, even
romantic.' His starting point was a near-fascination with John L. Lewis, the great labor leader
and founder of the CIO. What if, Alinsky wondered, the same hardheaded tactics used by unions
could be applied to the relationship between citizens and public officials?"
After completing his graduate work in criminology, Alinsky went on to develop what are known
today as the Alinsky concepts of mass organization for power. In the late 1930s he earned a
reputation as a master organizer of the poor when he organized the "Back of the Yards" area in
Chicago, an industrial and residential neighborhood on the Southwest Side of the city, so named
because it is near the site of the former Union Stockyards; this area had been made famous in
Upton Sinclair's 1906 novel The Jungle. In 1940 Alinsky established the aforementioned
Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF), through which he and his staff helped "organize"
communities not only in Chicago but throughout the United States. IAF remains an active entity
http://www.ask.com/web?q=Was+Saul+Alinsky+a+communist%3F&search=&qsrc=0&o=0&l=dir PDF file

RNR
02-01-2010, 09:30 PM
Seriously? Some editor of a right-wing website calls him Marxist, so it must be so? That's your proof?

Wow just wow~

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:31 PM
Saul Alinsky, Communist Party USA member

 Identified a set of very specific rules that ordinary citizens could follow, and tactics that
ordinary citizens could employ, as a means of gaining public power
 Created a blueprint for revolution under the banner of "social change"
 Two of his most notable modern-day disciples are Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.
Born to Russian-Jewish parents in Chicago in 1909, Saul Alinsky was a Marxist who
helped establish the dual political tactics of confrontation and infiltration that characterized the
1960s and have remained central to all subsequent revolutionary movements in the United States.
Though Alinsky is generally viewed as a member of the political left, and rightfully so, his
legacy is more methodological than ideological. He identified a set of very specific rules that
ordinary citizens could follow, and tactics that ordinary citizens could employ, as a means of
gaining public power. His motto was, "The most effective means are whatever will achieve the
desired results."
Alinsky studied criminology as a graduate student at the University of Chicago, during which
time he became friendly with Al Capone and his mobsters. Ryan Lizza, senior editor of The New
Republic, offers a glimpse into Alinsky's personality: "Charming and self-absorbed, Alinsky
would entertain friends with stories -- some true, many embellished -- from his mob days for
decades afterward. He was profane, outspoken, and narcissistic, always the center of attention
despite his tweedy, academic look and thick, horn-rimmed glasses."
According to Lizza:
"Alinsky was deeply influenced by the great social science insight of his times, one developed by
his professors at Chicago: that the pathologies of the urban poor were not hereditary but
environmental. This idea, that people could change their lives by changing their surroundings,
led him to take an obscure social science phrase—'the community organization'--and turn it into,
in the words of Alinsky biographer Sanford Horwitt, 'something controversial, important, even
romantic.' His starting point was a near-fascination with John L. Lewis, the great labor leader
and founder of the CIO. What if, Alinsky wondered, the same hardheaded tactics used by unions
could be applied to the relationship between citizens and public officials?"
After completing his graduate work in criminology, Alinsky went on to develop what are known
today as the Alinsky concepts of mass organization for power. In the late 1930s he earned a
reputation as a master organizer of the poor when he organized the "Back of the Yards" area in
Chicago, an industrial and residential neighborhood on the Southwest Side of the city, so named
because it is near the site of the former Union Stockyards; this area had been made famous in
Upton Sinclair's 1906 novel The Jungle. In 1940 Alinsky established the aforementioned
Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF), through which he and his staff helped "organize"
communities not only in Chicago but throughout the United States. IAF remains an active entity
http://www.ask.com/web?q=Was+Saul+Alinsky+a+communist%3F&search=&qsrc=0&o=0&l=dir PDF file

I don't think he ever "officially" joined the Communist Party.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:32 PM
Wow just wow~

Jenson is in a complete state of denial. Obviously.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:35 PM
To counter that materialism, Alinsky favored a socialist alternative. He characterized his noble radical (read: “revolutionary”) as a social reformer who “places human rights far above property rights”; who favors “universal, free public education”; who “insists on full employment for economic security” but stipulates also that people’s tasks should “be such as to satisfy the creative desires within all men”; who “will fight conservatives” everywhere; and who “will fight privilege and power, whether it be inherited or acquired,” and “whether it be political or financial or organized creed.”[7] Alinsky maintained that radicals, finding themselves “adrift in the stormy sea of capitalism,”[8] sought “to advance from the jungle of laissez-faire capitalism to a world worthy of the name of human civilization.”[9] “They hope for a future,” he said, “where the means of production will be owned by all of the people instead of just a comparative handful.”[10] In short, they wanted socialism.

Reaper16
02-01-2010, 09:37 PM
Misleading. I followed the link; Alinsky's son doesn't make any claims to Marxism on the part of his father or Obama.

alanm
02-01-2010, 09:37 PM
I don't think he ever "officially" joined the Communist Party.Have to go to Washington to access some old microfilm files at the USDOJ. ;)

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 09:38 PM
Alinksy's son is the editor of a Right Wing website? Jenson, it is a well known fact Alinsky is a Marxist. Or didn't they teach you that in your 4 years of Poly-Sci?? ROFL

No, Alinsky's son is not the editor of a Ring Wing website. The site you linked me to though, with the editor calling Alinsky the Marxist, is.

http://www.redcounty.com/sarasota/2008/09/saul-alinsky-son-praises-obama/

No, it's not a well-known fact that Alinsky was a Marxist. In fact, your wikipedia quote implicitly states that he was not a Marxist or even a socialist, "like Thomas Paine."

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 09:38 PM
Wow just wow~

Wow, what?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:44 PM
Misleading. I followed the link; Alinsky's son doesn't make any claims to Marxism on the part of his father or Obama.

So now you want to be the 2nd person in the world that doesn't view Alinsky as a Marxist??

Reaper16
02-01-2010, 09:44 PM
Wow, what?
Bow wow. Who let the dogs out?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:45 PM
No, Alinsky's son is not the editor of a Ring Wing website. The site you linked me to though, with the editor calling Alinsky the Marxist, is.

http://www.redcounty.com/sarasota/2008/09/saul-alinsky-son-praises-obama/

No, it's not a well-known fact that Alinsky was a Marxist. In fact, your wikipedia quote implicitly states that he was not a Marxist or even a socialist, "like Thomas Paine."

You obviously have no clue about the man, then. Actually, that is more than obvious.

Reaper16
02-01-2010, 09:45 PM
So now you want to be the 2nd person in the world that doesn't view Alinsky as a Marxist??
No, I want to say that some of the links you're providing aren't saying what you think they're saying.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:47 PM
No, I want to say that some of the links you're providing aren't saying what you think they're saying.

So you agree the man was a marxist? Links aside.

alanm
02-01-2010, 09:47 PM
So now you want to be the 2nd person in the world that doesn't view Alinsky as a Marxist??I think the new word now is Progressive soon to change to the code word Populist as to confuse the masses. Wink, wink, ;)

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:48 PM
I think the new word now is Progressive soon to change to the code word Populist as to confuse the masses. Wink, wink, ;)

Yea, funny how "Progressives" are starting to come out of the closet now. On the Left anyway. There are still a lot of Progs on the Right that pretend to be otherwise.

Reaper16
02-01-2010, 09:50 PM
So you agree the man was a marxist? Links aside.
Beats me. I've never read anything from the man.

RNR
02-01-2010, 09:51 PM
You obviously have no clue about the man, then. Actually, that is more than obvious.

That is why I did not respond to him... I mean really what is the fucking point~

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 09:51 PM
You obviously have no clue about the man, then. Actually, that is more than obvious.

Here's part of an interview he did soon before his death:


PLAYBOY: Did you consider becoming a party member prior to the Nazi-Soviet Pact?

ALINSKY: Not at any time. I've never joined any organization -- not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what judge Learned Hand described as "that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right." If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide. The great atomic physicist Niels Bohr summed it up pretty well when he said, "Every sentence I utter must be understood not as an affirmation, but as a question." Nobody owns the truth, and dogma, whatever form it takes, is the ultimate enemy of human freedom.

http://www.forestcouncil.org/tims_picks/view.php?id=1075

He's definitely not a Marxist.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 09:52 PM
That is why I did not respond to him... I mean really what is the ****ing point~

Wow, just wow.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:54 PM
Beats me. I've never read anything from the man.

When you get a chance read some. The man is an idol among the Marxist crowd and pushes all the typical Marxist positions. Aside from Jenson I have yet to meet anyone to argue that point.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 09:55 PM
Here's part of an interview he did soon before his death:


PLAYBOY: Did you consider becoming a party member prior to the Nazi-Soviet Pact?

ALINSKY: Not at any time. I've never joined any organization -- not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what judge Learned Hand described as "that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right." If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide. The great atomic physicist Niels Bohr summed it up pretty well when he said, "Every sentence I utter must be understood not as an affirmation, but as a question." Nobody owns the truth, and dogma, whatever form it takes, is the ultimate enemy of human freedom.

http://www.forestcouncil.org/tims_picks/view.php?id=1075

He's definitely not a Marxist.

LMAO, if you say so. He just pushes Marxist positions. But he isn't a Marxist.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 09:56 PM
When you get a chance read some. The man is an idol among the Marxist crowd and pushes all the typical Marxist positions. Aside from Jenson I have yet to meet anyone to argue that point.

Can you show me where the Marxist crowd is? I assume you mean Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, yes?

RNR
02-01-2010, 09:57 PM
When you get a chance read some. The man is an idol among the Marxist crowd and pushes all the typical Marxist positions. Aside from Jenson I have yet to meet anyone to argue that point.
Nor have I

KILLER_CLOWN
02-01-2010, 09:57 PM
He's not a marxist, he's a Luciferian. :rolleyes:

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 09:57 PM
LMAO, if you say so. He just pushes Marxist positions. But he isn't a Marxist.

What specific Marxist positions does he push?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:00 PM
“They hope for a future,” he said, “where the means of production will be owned by all of the people instead of just a comparative handful"



Marxism is a particular political philosophy, economic and sociological worldview based upon a materialist interpretation of history, a Marxist analysis of capitalism, a theory of social change, and an atheist view of human liberation derived from the work of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. The three primary aspects of Marxism are:

1.The dialectical and materialist concept of history — Humankind's history is fundamentally that of the struggle between social classes. The productive capacity of society is the foundation of society, and as this capacity increases over time the social relations of production, class relations, evolve through this struggle of the classes and pass through definite stages (primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism). The legal, political, ideological and other aspects (ex. art) of society are derived from these production relations as is the consciousness of the individuals of which the society is composed.
2.The critique of capitalism — In capitalist society, an economic minority (the bourgeoisie) dominate and exploit the working class (proletariat) majority. Marx uncovered the interworkings of capitalist exploitation, the specific way in which unpaid labor (surplus value) is extracted from the working class (the labor theory of value), extending and critiquing the work of earlier political economists on value. Although the production process is socialized, ownership remains in the hand of the bourgeoisie. This forms the fundamental contradiction of capitalist society. Without the elimination of the fetter of the private ownership of the means of production, human society is unable to achieve further development.
3.Advocacy of proletarian revolution — In order to overcome the fetters of private property the working class must seize political power internationally through a social revolution and expropriate the capitalist classes around the world and place the productive capacities of society into collective ownership. Upon this, material foundation classes would be abolished and the material basis for all forms of inequality between humankind would dissolve.


Now you go read Rules for Radicals then come back and say he isn't a Marxist

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:00 PM
Can you show me where the Marxist crowd is? I assume you mean Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, yes?

Hell, I got a Marxist in my family. My brother. And yes, Obama is quite the Alimsky student. Hillary is also an admitted "Progressive".

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:04 PM
Now you go read Rules for Radicals then come back and say he isn't a Marxist

Where is this quote:

“They hope for a future,” he said, “where the means of production will be owned by all of the people instead of just a comparative handful"

from?

That's the closest to anything I've seen of him that resembles something that could be socialism. Exactly, that's pretty close to a socialist ideal. But socialism came long before Marxism. They're not synonymous things. You can be a socialist without being a Marxist.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:06 PM
Hell, I got a Marxist in my family. My brother. And yes, Obama is quite the Alimsky student. Hillary is also an admitted "Progressive".

Who did your brother vote for?

And I can tell that neither Obama nor Clinton are Marxists. They are . . . (surprise!) capitalists.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:07 PM
Alinsky taught that the organizer’s first task was to make people feel that they were wise enough to diagnose their own problems, find their own solutions, and determine their own destinies. The organizer, said Alinsky, must exploit the fact that “[m]illions of people feel deep down in their hearts that there is no place for them, that they do not ‘count.’”[35] To exploit this state of affairs effectively, Alinsky explained, the organizer must employ such techniques as the artful use of “loaded questions designed to elicit particular responses and to steer the organization’s decision-making process in the direction which the organizer prefers.[36]

“Is this manipulation?” asked Alinsky. “Certainly,” he answered instantly.[37] But it was manipulation toward a desirable end: “If the common man had a chance to feel that he could direct his own efforts … that to a certain extent there was a destiny that he could do something about, that there was a dream that he could keep fighting for, then life would be wonderful living.”[38] In Alinsky’s calculus, the common man could achieve this renewed vitality of spirit via his membership and active participation in the People’s Organization.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:09 PM
Alinsky taught that the organizer’s first task was to make people feel that they were wise enough to diagnose their own problems, find their own solutions, and determine their own destinies. The organizer, said Alinsky, must exploit the fact that “[m]illions of people feel deep down in their hearts that there is no place for them, that they do not ‘count.’”[35] To exploit this state of affairs effectively, Alinsky explained, the organizer must employ such techniques as the artful use of “loaded questions designed to elicit particular responses and to steer the organization’s decision-making process in the direction which the organizer prefers.[36]

“Is this manipulation?” asked Alinsky. “Certainly,” he answered instantly.[37] But it was manipulation toward a desirable end: “If the common man had a chance to feel that he could direct his own efforts … that to a certain extent there was a destiny that he could do something about, that there was a dream that he could keep fighting for, then life would be wonderful living.”[38] In Alinsky’s calculus, the common man could achieve this renewed vitality of spirit via his membership and active participation in the People’s Organization.

That describes neither Marxism nor socialism.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:16 PM
To be fair, I have seen Alinsky labled a "neo-marxist" a lot.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:17 PM
That describes neither Marxism nor socialism.

It describes what Obama is doing as he was taught from the Marxist. That was not a post to define Alinsky as a Marxist but to show that Obama is applying the teachings of a Marxist.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:23 PM
To be fair, I have seen Alinsky labled a "neo-marxist" a lot.

How do the neo-Marxists differ from the Marxists? And which do you agree with Alinsky being more of?

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:24 PM
It describes what Obama is doing as he was taught from the Marxist. That was not a post to define Alinsky as a Marxist but to show that Obama is applying the teachings of a Marxist.

But I'm still in doubt as to him being a Marxist.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:26 PM
I'd like to know who your brother voted for, pete. Do you know?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:26 PM
How do the neo-Marxists differ from the Marxists? And which do you agree with Alinsky being more of?

Neo-Marxism is a loose term for various twentieth-century approaches that amend or extend Marxism and Marxist theory, usually by incorporating elements from other intellectual traditions, such as: critical theory or psychoanalysis.

Erik Olin Wright's theory of contradictory class locations, which incorporates Weberian sociology; and critical criminology, which incorporates anarchism.[1] As with many uses of the prefix neo-, many theorists and groups designated as neo-Marxist have attempted to supplement the perceived deficiencies of orthodox Marxism or dialectical materialism. Many prominent neo-Marxists, such as Herbert Marcuse and other members of the Frankfurt School, were sociologists and psychologists.

Neo-Marxism comes under the broader heading of New Left thinking. Neo-Marxism is also used frequently to describe opposition to inequalities experienced by Lesser Developed Countries in a globalized world.

In a sociological sense, neo-Marxism adds Max Weber's broader understanding of social inequality, such as status and power, to Marxist philosophy. Strains of neo-Marxism include: critical theory, analytical Marxism and French structural Marxism.

If I had to put a label on him I would call him a Communist\Marxist. But I think neo-marxist fits.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:29 PM
I'd like to know who your brother voted for, pete. Do you know?

No, I don't. He may have voted for Obama but I know for a fact that Obama is not liberal enough for him. I try to avoid political discussions with him anymore.

KILLER_CLOWN
02-01-2010, 10:33 PM
No, I don't. He may have voted for Obama but I know for a fact that Obama is not liberal enough for him. I try to avoid political discussions with him anymore.

Why avoid it? You need to show him the deception he bought into so he doesn't make the same mistake again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:34 PM
If I had to put a label on him I would call him a Communist\Marxist. But I think neo-marxist fits.

Is that because he extended Marxist ideas and incorporated non-Marxist ideas into his philosophy?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:36 PM
Is that because he extended Marxist ideas and incorporated non-Marxist ideas into his philosophy?

I don't know. As I said I don't discuss politics with him anymore and haven't since we invaded Iraq. If we do it is a very short conversation.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:38 PM
I don't know. As I said I don't discuss politics with him anymore and haven't since we invaded Iraq. If we do it is a very short conversation.

No, I meant Alinsky.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:38 PM
Why avoid it? You need to show him the deception he bought into so he doesn't make the same mistake again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

There is no showing him anything. He is a very educated person but stuck in his ways. It is just not worth it. You can't tell him anything he doesn't think he already knows.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:43 PM
No, I meant Alinsky.

To a point you could say that. Ironically as I said I would call him a Communist\Marxist or a neo-Marxist due to what you would consider "socialsist" aspects Alisnky presents....and then I find this..how fitting...


Communism is a social structure in which classes are abolished and property is commonly controlled, as well as a political philosophy and social movement that advocates and aims to create such a society.[1] Karl Marx, the father of communist thought, posited that communism would be the final stage in society, which would be achieved through a proletarian revolution and only possible after a socialist stage develops the productive forces, leading to a superabundance of goods and services.[2][3]

"Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life. In modern usage, communism is often used to refer to Bolshevism or Marxism-Leninism and the policies of the various communist states which had government ownership of all the means of production and centrally planned economies. Communist regimes, all inspired only by the Leninist current, have historically been authoritarian, repressive, and coercive governments concerned primarily with preserving their own power.

As a political ideology, communism is usually considered to be a branch of socialism; a broad group of economic and political philosophies that draw on the various political and intellectual movements with origins in the work of theorists of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution.[4] Communism attempts to offer an alternative to the problems with the capitalist market economy and the legacy of imperialism and nationalism.

Marx states that the only way to solve these problems is for the working class (proletariat), who according to Marx are the main producers of wealth in society and are exploited by the Capitalist-class (bourgeoisie), to replace the bourgeoisie as the ruling class in order to establish a free society, without class or racial divisions.[1] The dominant forms of communism, such as Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Trotskyism are based on Marxism, as well as others forms of communism (such as Luxemburgism and Council communism), but non-Marxist versions of communism (such as Christian communism and Anarchist communism) also exist.

Karl Marx never provided a detailed description as to how communism would function as an economic system, but it is understood that a communist economy would consist of common ownership of the means of production, culminating in the negation of the concept of private ownership of capital, which referred to the means of production in Marxian terminology.


True you can be a socialist without being a marxist, sort of. But you can't be a marxist without being a socialist.

As Lenin said: "Socialism is Communism in a hurry". If my memory serves correctly.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:46 PM
Well, pete, I can assure you there are such things as Communists and Marxists. But Alinsky was not one. If you are interested in contemporary Marxists (they are pretty much all dead, but some still survive, typically in English departments) check out wsws.org, the world socialist website.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:47 PM
Well, pete, I can assure you there are such things as Communists and Marxists. But Alinsky was not one. If you are interested in contemporary Marxists (they are pretty much all dead, but some still survive, typically in English departments) check out wsws.org, the world socialist website.

We are going to agree to disagree about Alinksy and the vast majority of the educated world would disagree with you as well. And Karl Marx WAS\IS a communist. So it really is hard to differentiate the two. Alinsky subscribes to the majority of the Marxist idea. You cannot refute that.

And you have people in the Obama cabinet makin references to Mao and how great he was so, I think that pretty much shuts the book on Obama and his cronies.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:53 PM
We are going to agree to disagree about Alinksy and the vast majority of the educated world would disagree with you as well.

Probably not. But that would be impossible to know, so I guess we'll remain in a permanent state of mystery.

And Karl Marx WAS\IS a communist. So it really is hard to differentiate the two.

Pete, of course Marxism and Communism is hard to differentiate. Marxism is the most prominent form of Communism that ever made its presence felt in history (and what a presence it was).

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:54 PM
Alinsky subscribes to the majority of the Marxist idea. You cannot refute that.

I see no evidence that this is true.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:54 PM
Probably not. But that would be impossible to know, so I guess we'll remain in a permanent state of mystery.


Pete, of course Marxism and Communism is hard to differentiate. Marxism is the most prominent form of Communism that ever made its presence felt in history (and what a presence it was).

So then why you don't understand Alinsky is a Marxist is as you said, a mystery.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:54 PM
I see no evidence that this is true.

Then you haven't read anything from Alinsky.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 10:57 PM
“[W]e are concerned,” Alinsky elaborated, “with how to create mass organizations to seize power and give it to the people"

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:58 PM
And you have people in the Obama cabinet makin references to Mao and how great he was so, I think that pretty much shuts the book on Obama and his cronies.

Take off the conspiracy glasses, for godssake. Anita Dunn made a reference to Mao, but she never said he was a great person. It's not wrong to say that he did a great job defeating the KMT.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 10:59 PM
So then why you don't understand Alinsky is a Marxist is as you said, a mystery.

Alinsky is not a Communist, either.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:00 PM
Then you haven't read anything from Alinsky.

I've read as much as you have. I'll look through his Rules for Radicals some time next week and let you know what's in it.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:00 PM
“[W]e are concerned,” Alinsky elaborated, “with how to create mass organizations to seize power and give it to the people"

That's what the Tea Party people want.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:01 PM
I've read as much as you have. I'll look through his Rules for Radicals some time next week and let you know what's in it.

Just to let you know that is more of a tactics book but when you recognize what the tactics are meant to achieve perhaps you will see the light?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:03 PM
That's what the Tea Party people want.

Not in the same sense as Alinsky. Alsinky believes in universal health care, free education for all, full and equal employment and pretty much the demolition of capitalism.

That is hardly what the Tea Party people are about.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:03 PM
Just to let you know that is more of a tactics book but when you recognize what the tactics are meant to achieve perhaps you will see the light?

Then tell me in what book he talks about what he wants to achieve.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:04 PM
To counter that materialism, Alinsky favored a socialist alternative. He characterized his noble radical (read: “revolutionary”) as a social reformer who “places human rights far above property rights”; who favors “universal, free public education”; who “insists on full employment for economic security” but stipulates also that people’s tasks should “be such as to satisfy the creative desires within all men”; who “will fight conservatives” everywhere; and who “will fight privilege and power, whether it be inherited or acquired,” and “whether it be political or financial or organized creed.”[7] Alinsky maintained that radicals, finding themselves “adrift in the stormy sea of capitalism,”[8] sought “to advance from the jungle of laissez-faire capitalism to a world worthy of the name of human civilization.”[9] “They hope for a future,” he said, “where the means of production will be owned by all of the people instead of just a comparative handful.”

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:04 PM
Then tell me in what book he talks about what he wants to achieve.

Start with Rules.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:05 PM
Start with Rules.

Are his "achievement goals" in there?

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:06 PM
To counter that materialism, Alinsky favored a socialist alternative. He characterized his noble radical (read: “revolutionary”) as a social reformer who “places human rights far above property rights”; who favors “universal, free public education”; who “insists on full employment for economic security” but stipulates also that people’s tasks should “be such as to satisfy the creative desires within all men”; who “will fight conservatives” everywhere; and who “will fight privilege and power, whether it be inherited or acquired,” and “whether it be political or financial or organized creed.”[7] Alinsky maintained that radicals, finding themselves “adrift in the stormy sea of capitalism,”[8] sought “to advance from the jungle of laissez-faire capitalism to a world worthy of the name of human civilization.”[9] “They hope for a future,” he said, “where the means of production will be owned by all of the people instead of just a comparative handful.”

What book is that in?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:06 PM
What book is that in?

Rules, I do believe.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:07 PM
Not in the same sense as Alinsky. Alsinky believes in universal health care, free education for all, full and equal employment and pretty much the demolition of capitalism.

That is hardly what the Tea Party people are about.

The Tea Party people mostly want a balanced budget. Some of the lower class tea party people want the recession to be over.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:07 PM
Are his "achievement goals" in there?

I think they are but I am not sure if there is a part where they are summarized per sey. It's been a long time since I read it.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:08 PM
Rules, I do believe.

No, it's not.

You've never read any of his books, have you?

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:09 PM
I think they are but I am not sure if there is a part where they are summarized per sey. It's been a long time since I read it.

When did you read it?

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:09 PM
The Tea Party people mostly want a balanced budget. Some of the lower class tea party people want the recession to be over.

The Tea Party people want less government and more free market. They are on opposite ends from Alinsky.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:10 PM
When did you read it?

Jesus, what are you writing a book? Leave that part out and make it a mystery!

It was the early 90's. Right after Bubba took office.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:14 PM
The Tea Party people want less government and more free market. They are on opposite ends from Alinsky.

No, they just believe a balanced budget is more likely to come from "less government." Most people don't want more free market, especially the lower class Tea Party people. Most people like some form of "big government" in the sense that it provides social security nets and a far better society. A lot of people feel disconnected to their government for various reasons, have little support for the wars, and hate the idea of being in massive debt.

petegz28
02-01-2010, 11:16 PM
No, they just believe a balanced budget is more likely to come from "less government." Most people don't want more free market, especially the lower class Tea Party people. Most people like some form of "big government" in the sense that it provides social security nets and a far better society. A lot of people feel disconnected to their government for various reasons, have little support for the wars, and hate the idea of being in massive debt.

You're wrong but ok. I am going to bed.

Jenson71
02-01-2010, 11:19 PM
Jesus, what are you writing a book? Leave that part out and make it a mystery!

It was the early 90's. Right after Bubba took office.

Oh, I found that quote. It's from Reveille for Radicals, in which he talks about what radicals want. "They feel that this minority control of production facilities is injurious to the large masses of people not only because of economic monopolies but also because the political power inherent in this form of centralized economy does not augur well for an ever expanding democratic way of life."

HonestChieffan
02-02-2010, 05:12 AM
What is a lower class Tea Party Person?

Jenson71
02-02-2010, 07:05 AM
What is a lower class Tea Party Person?

A person who attends the Tea Parties, supports them, and has a blue collar job, or earns less than $35,000 a year.

stevieray
02-02-2010, 07:13 AM
What is a lower class Tea Party Person?
people that progressives know stand in their way.

Jenson71
02-02-2010, 07:21 AM
people that progressives know stand in their way.

Your idea of a progressive (channeled from Glenn Beck) is much different than mine. The progressives I know supported workers' rights, social safety nets, workers compensation, a minimum wage, the weekend. They stood with the lower class.

BucEyedPea
02-02-2010, 07:47 AM
The Tea Party people want less government and more free market. They are on opposite ends from Alinsky.

Exactly!

ChiefaRoo
02-02-2010, 08:24 AM
To counter that materialism, Alinsky favored a socialist alternative. He characterized his noble radical (read: “revolutionary”) as a social reformer who “places human rights far above property rights”; who favors “universal, free public education”; who “insists on full employment for economic security” but stipulates also that people’s tasks should “be such as to satisfy the creative desires within all men”; who “will fight conservatives” everywhere; and who “will fight privilege and power, whether it be inherited or acquired,” and “whether it be political or financial or organized creed.”[7] Alinsky maintained that radicals, finding themselves “adrift in the stormy sea of capitalism,”[8] sought “to advance from the jungle of laissez-faire capitalism to a world worthy of the name of human civilization.”[9] “They hope for a future,” he said, “where the means of production will be owned by all of the people instead of just a comparative handful.”

This is Karl Marx socialism. It doesn't work because the "means of production" will go away when there is no profit motive to perform. Then the Govt. pushes back harder and the workers pretend to work but what they really are doing is slowing way down, putting out low quality materials and falsifying production.

When the US realized this back in the day we bankrupted this way of thinking by producing rings around them with the power of the free market. The old Eastern Block had to spend so much of their GDP producing arms to compete and the masses (read people) stood in lines for crappy consumer staples. Today if you look at Cuba and North Korea compared to say Puerto Rico and South Korea you see the incredible differences in the quality of life.

North Korea can't even f**king feed itself.

This whole Saul Alinsky way of thinking is a sickness that some on the left have adopted. It's incredible to me that this failed way of thinking is even spoken about. Chris Matthews is a bright guy which all sorts of advanced degrees but he still says Alinsky is a hero fo the left? He's stuck in some sort of juvenile mental state. Incredible.

BucEyedPea
02-02-2010, 08:25 AM
We're being communized as we speak. I won't say socialized because they're the same thing but people accept "socialist" they way they accept "liberal" these days. It's too mild a label. Time to call a spade a spade!

ChiefaRoo
02-02-2010, 08:38 AM
We're being communized as we speak. I won't say socialized because they're the same thing but people accept "socialist" they way they accept "liberal" these days. It's too mild a label. Time to call a spade a spade!

You're right Pea. There is a Marxist/Socialist wing living within the Democratic party. They're trying to take over the entire Dem. party. We shouldn't let them do that.

Chiefshrink
02-02-2010, 08:41 AM
Alinsky is their(Radical Leftists Commie Progressives) "JESUS" no doubt about it. Our country has been getting Alinskized for decades but more profound than ever in the last 15yrs.

Chiefshrink
02-02-2010, 08:43 AM
They're trying to take over the entire Dem. party. We shouldn't let them do that.

What do you mean trying to take over????????????? They already have!!!! And they have for the last decade of not 2 decades:shake::shake:

ChiefaRoo
02-02-2010, 09:53 AM
What do you mean trying to take over????????????? They already have!!!! And they have for the last decade of not 2 decades:shake::shake:

I think the D's can expunge the Socialists from their party if they get support from the people. I'm talking about clear thinking "classic" libs and the blue dogs.