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The Mad Crapper
02-03-2010, 02:02 PM
The Moonbattery marches on!

In a perversion of all common sense, a New York Teacher's Union and the NAACP are actually suing to prevent the closing of 19 low-performing New York City schools.

The union said the plan to close the schools violates state law because it fails to consider the impact of the closings on the community. New York City NAACP leaders said the decision will hurt minority students.
Or to look at it another way: the teacher's union implies that the underperforming schools are a benefit to the community. Likewise, the NAACP believes that keeping the failing schools open will help minority students.

The audacity of the entrenched left is something to behold -- fighting for their own interests at the expense of those they claim to want to help.


http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/education&id=7251105

HonestChieffan
02-03-2010, 04:41 PM
Hopefully the Union/NAACP lose horribly and we start to see education returned to local control and get the feds out of it. There is little of any vaue that the feds contribute and it costs billions to support the stupid crap they impose on education.

We would be better off to disband the dept of education and give all the revenues back o the schools and cut government in washigton out

Jenson71
02-03-2010, 04:58 PM
The audacity of the entrenched left is something to behold -- fighting for their own interests at the expense of those they claim to want to help.

These teachers seem to have some crazy idea that fixing the schools is better than closing them.

Though a school fixing is little substitute for significant economic fixing, what else is a teachers' union going to do at the prospect of losing their jobs? How is it moonbattery?

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 05:11 PM
Hopefully the Union/NAACP lose horribly and we start to see education returned to local control and get the feds out of it. There is little of any vaue that the feds contribute and it costs billions to support the stupid crap they impose on education.

We would be better off to disband the dept of education and give all the revenues back o the schools and cut government in washigton out

In an ideal world, "failing" schools would be replaced. But, seriously, what is the alternative here? Think about it.

In the neighborhoods we are talking about, what is the likelihood of "private" schools or businesses (through charter schools) making any significant difference in these places? Seriously? Think about it.

The research and studies of most attempts to "replace" these schools....are mixed, at best. There are some success stories--but they are rare, and not sustained or a one-size-fits-all prescription for the unique circumstances of each school. At worse, the "replacement" schools, in the long run, aggrevate the chronic social problems in these neighborhoods. Yep, it's true; actually, it's more common than the success stories. Mostly though, it's just shuffling the deck of cards. Check the real research yourself if you don't believe me. It's very complicated and not at all pretty.

Why, you ask? Because the chronic problems of these neighborhoods are too often much deeper than "failing schools" and involve a variety of social and education obstacles that "private" alternatives do no better at "fixing" than the failing schools did: poverty, high crime rates, lack of parental support, child neglect and abuse, single-parent working poor families, latch key children with few after school opportunities, drugs, gangs, violence, lack of respect for education and academics in general, and many other factors that foster a climate of hopelessness and despair that's easy to dismiss from the outside, but an incredible challenge to overcome from that side of the fence.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try; we should. But we have, and we do. Everyday. Except that a whole lot of people who don't know the first thing about education or our public school system....pretend to know that they have all the solutions to the "problems" that schools face. Except that they aren't offereing anything that hasn't been tried before. And it hasn't worked, for the most part. The REAL answers to those questions are incredibly complex, politically unpopular, and quite costly. Of course, the quite costly part of it is why it ain't been fixed.

The biggest "fix" would be attracting many more QUALITY educators and administrators to do the job in those districts. Good luck with that....

HonestChieffan
02-03-2010, 05:20 PM
KC is going through this sort of crap now. Hickman Mills and Center I think are supposed to merge. But they are fighting over if they should close a building...DUH....and have all the students in one place...Hello? That was the idea in the first place you morons...the idea is we dont have enough kids in either school so consolidate to one and close the other...saves money, lots...but now, no these dillweed educators are fussing over the very thing that drove the need in the first place.

No wonder education is in the crapper if these morons are running the show.

Bwana
02-03-2010, 06:09 PM
Hope and change! Wish you had that vote back teach?

:facepalm:

http://i.ebayimg.com/03/!BY3jUZwCGk~$(KGrHgoH-CUEjlLl1UPiBKj1)1pCmg~~_3.JPG

NewChief
02-03-2010, 07:18 PM
Since Kotter is in this thread:

Dude, you've got to read Yong Zhao's Catching Up or Leading the Way (http://www.amazon.com/Catching-Leading-Way-Education-Globalization/dp/1416608737). Absolutely one of the best treatises on the current pitfalls in our education system I've seen. Challenges the absolute baseline assumptions about what we're trying to achieve in education.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 07:21 PM
Hopefully the Union/NAACP lose horribly and we start to see education returned to local control and get the feds out of it. There is little of any vaue that the feds contribute and it costs billions to support the stupid crap they impose on education.

We would be better off to disband the dept of education and give all the revenues back o the schools and cut government in washigton out

That won't be enough. Every teacher needs to undergo massive retraining. We can begin by emptying out all the teacher colleges of their professors.
I will admit that is a start though.

I wondering where all these bad parents are I've been hearing about from a certain teacher. I am tutoring first and second graders under a NCLB grant and the parents seem to care about their children's progress.

NewChief
02-03-2010, 07:21 PM
KC is going through this sort of crap now. Hickman Mills and Center I think are supposed to merge. But they are fighting over if they should close a building...DUH....and have all the students in one place...Hello? That was the idea in the first place you morons...the idea is we dont have enough kids in either school so consolidate to one and close the other...saves money, lots...but now, no these dillweed educators are fussing over the very thing that drove the need in the first place.

No wonder education is in the crapper if these morons are running the show.

They're fighting because almost the entire movement in education right now (rightly or wrongly) is for smaller schools. All of the closed down, "failing" schools mentioned in the OP are likely the massive schools that most are seeing as a relic of a bygone era. It would be nice if people who profess to understand education and the current state of education read a book or 30 on the subject to test the winds of what's actually happening in the current climate.

HonestChieffan
02-03-2010, 07:26 PM
The biggest relic we face is the relic created by federal interference in education. It was, should be and should always be local and state driven and the feds stay out of it. Let schools fire the bad teachers and hire good ones and tell the union and any other group to go to hell.

NewChief
02-03-2010, 07:28 PM
The biggest relic we face is the relic created by federal interference in education. It was, should be and should always be local and state driven and the feds stay out of it. Let schools fire the bad teachers and hire good ones and tell the union and any other group to go to hell.

I agree with you to a pretty large extent on the federal control. I think that unions (especially local ones) have their place, though. The problem with the principal firing/hiring is that principal turnover is super high, and (trust me on this one) there are a ton of moronic principals out there. If they were truly in charge of the firing and hiring... it would be a scary scenario.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 07:41 PM
KC is going through this sort of crap now. Hickman Mills and Center I think are supposed to merge. But they are fighting over if they should close a building...DUH....and have all the students in one place...Hello? That was the idea in the first place you morons...the idea is we dont have enough kids in either school so consolidate to one and close the other...saves money, lots...but now, no these dillweed educators are fussing over the very thing that drove the need in the first place.

No wonder education is in the crapper if these morons are running the show.

If you think for ONE minute teachers and "educators" make these decisions...you are delusional. Communities (organizations and leaders) and parents, even dumb ones without a clue, are the only real "power" brokers that count. You are seriously out-of-touch if you think otherwise.

That won't be enough. Every teacher needs to undergo massive retraining. We can begin by emptying out all the teacher colleges of their professors.
I will admit that is a start though.

I wondering where all these bad parents are I've been hearing about from a certain teacher. I am tutoring first and second graders under a NCLB grant and the parents seem to care about their children's progress.

Caring is one thing; palpable and long-term commitment to action is another. Some parents are up to the challenge, no doubt; however, far too many would rather spend money, time, and effort on their own selfish pursuits. FTR, I'm not even completely above it, but much better than the vast majority IMHO.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 07:42 PM
Since Kotter is in this thread:

Dude, you've got to read Yong Zhao's Catching Up or Leading the Way (http://www.amazon.com/Catching-Leading-Way-Education-Globalization/dp/1416608737). Absolutely one of the best treatises on the current pitfalls in our education system I've seen. Challenges the absolute baseline assumptions about what we're trying to achieve in education.

I'll add it to my "list"...thanks, NP.

I agree with you to a pretty large extent on the federal control. I think that unions (especially local ones) have their place, though. The problem with the principal firing/hiring is that principal turnover is super high, and (trust me on this one) there are a ton of moronic principals out there. If they were truly in charge of the firing and hiring... it would be a scary scenario.



Amen, man. Too bad they think Rush, Sean, and Glenn give them all the info they need, eh? :shake:

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 07:46 PM
Caring is one thing; palpable and long-term commitment to action is another. Some parents are up to the challenge, no doubt; however, far too many would rather spend money, time, and effort on their own selfish pursuits. FTR, I'm not even completely above it, but much better than the vast majority IMHO.

I am not seeing that either. These parents willingly do the homework with their kids too. I've seen kids from upscale neighborhoods getting tutoring too. In fact one mom was told her kid just flat out couldn't read. When she left the building there was a long line of parents, about to be told the same exact thing. She told them all to run. God bless her!

HonestChieffan
02-03-2010, 07:48 PM
I am not seeing that either. These parents willingly do the homework with their kids too. I've seen kids from upscale neighborhoods getting tutoring too. In fact one mom was told her kid just flat out couldn't read. When she left the building there was a long line of parents, about to be told the same exact thing. She told them all to run. God bless her!

Yes but all those federal programs and requirements were met so the fact education did not take place is really not that bad. If they only had more budget, it would be fixed. Right?

NewChief
02-03-2010, 07:51 PM
I am not seeing that either. These parents willingly do the homework with their kids too. I've seen kids from upscale neighborhoods getting tutoring too. In fact one mom was told her kid just flat out couldn't read. When she left the building there was a long line of parents, about to be told the same exact thing. She told them all to run. God bless her!

If their kids are part of a tutoring program, then they probably care. I'll tell you what, I'll give you a list of 10% of our school and let you start making parent calls to them trying to set up appointments and talk to them about their children. See how that works out for you. Admittedly, by the time they get to secondary, the problems are much worse. "Problem" kids have become real problems... and their parents are sick of both the kid and the school system. As such, I get the worst picture. I'd imagine it is much better at the elementary level (in fact, I know it is... we had a highly successful low socioeconomic summer program at that level in our district last year... it was an awesome success)

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 07:51 PM
The biggest relic we face is the relic created by federal interference in education. It was, should be and should always be local and state driven and the feds stay out of it. Let schools fire the bad teachers and hire good ones and tell the union and any other group to go to hell.

If it were that simple, it would have been done long, long ago. "Bad teacher" is too often a euphemism for tough teacher with high standards who wouldn't take shit from me or my kid....so since I bowl or drink with the local school board members, "we is gonna git his sorry azz fired!" There needs to be due process and fair procedures in place to ensure such "politics" doesn't take-over.

However, I agree....tenure and unions hold far too much sway in many urban areas, especially. In right-to-work states, like mine, if administrators do THEIR job, truly bad teachers can be forced out...fact is too many administrators are not willing to do their job, for a variety of reasons. THAT needs to change, to be sure; but the majority of blame for that is NOT with teachers, but with administrators.

I am not seeing that either. These parents willingly do the homework with their kids too. I've seen kids from upscale neighborhoods getting tutoring too. In fact one mom was told her kid just flat out couldn't read. When she left the building there was a long line of parents, about to be told the same exact thing. She told them all to run. God bless her!

You are in a bubble then, BEP; good for you. I guarantee that is not the case in the vast majority of districts where there are failing schools. I guarantee it.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 07:52 PM
Yes but all those federal programs and requirements were met so the fact education did not take place is really not that bad. If they only had more budget, it would be fixed. Right?

Or blame it on the parents.

It's really the methods that are the biggest problem particularly for reading in the early grades.That is the basis for all future learning. The move to smaller groups helps. But some tutoring groups are even too big. Some kids just flat out need one-on-one or just two. That's makes a difference.

NewChief
02-03-2010, 07:54 PM
Or blame it on the parents.

It's really the methods that are the biggest problem particularly for reading in the early grades.That is the basis for all future learning. The move to smaller groups helps. But some tutoring groups are even too big. Some kids just flat out need one-on-one or just two. That's makes a difference.

Yeah, those teacher's unions have really been standing in the way on this one. ROFL Here's a hint. If it weren't for the unions, we'd have over 50 kids per classroom with one teacher.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 07:58 PM
Yeah, those teacher's unions have really been standing in the way on this one. ROFL Here's a hint. If it weren't for the unions, we'd have over 50 kids per classroom with one teacher.

We're did I say anything about the teacher unions? Were you a whole language student, because that would answer why you asked this.ROFL

Stock to the point that was made instead of erecting strawmen.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 07:59 PM
Or blame it on the parents.

It's really the methods that are the biggest problem particularly for reading in the early grades.That is the basis for all future learning. The move to smaller groups helps. But some tutoring groups are even too big. Some kids just flat out need one-on-one or just two. That's makes a difference.

For someone who wants the government SOOOOOO far removed from our lives, you sure seem to expect miracles out of teachers---and for a modest salary and compensation that is one of the biggest reasons the profession cannot attract enough "high quality" people, and so many of those more capable people choose more lucrative careers. Wow. Color me surprised.

No big government; but, hell yeah, teachers and schools who qualify for food stamps in some states....THEY ought to be able to turn straw into gold, baby!

Yes but all those federal programs and requirements were met so the fact education did not take place is really not that bad. If they only had more budget, it would be fixed. Right?

Hey, dude....she's calling for one-on-one tutoring (which, ideally, I'd agree with.) You willing to buck-up on the tax bill for that. Heh.

LMAO



:rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:03 PM
For someone who wants the government SOOOOOO far removed from our lives, you sure seem to expect miracles out of teachers---and for a modest salary and compensation that is one of the biggest reasons the profession cannot attract enough "high quality" people, and so many of those more capable people choose more lucrative careers. Wow. Color me surprised.
So I see you can't stick to the point either. But I do know you weren't taught to read with whole language. Maybe it was whole word sight reading?

If teachers were retrained with better tools they'd get better results and make their job's easier. Old teachers in the past did with few benefits too.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:05 PM
Ya' know Kotter, teaching reading with the little ones is the easiest thing in the world.
Anyone trained right, including without a teaching degree can do it. That's the funny thing here.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 08:05 PM
So I see you can't stick to the point either. But I do know you weren't taught to read with whole language. Maybe it was whole word sight reading?

If teachers were retrained with better tools they'd get better results and make their job's easier. Old teachers in the past did with few benefits too.

Old teachers in the past....didn't have nearly the complexity of social factors and issues facing them that many urban educators do either. And they had stronger support at home, and....yes, from parents. Your refusal to recognize the patently obvious is disappointing--if unsurprising.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 08:07 PM
Ya' know Kotter, teaching reading with the little ones is the easiest thing in the world.
Anyone trained right, including without a teaching degree can do it. That's the funny thing here.

Yep. Gosh, think of the money you could manke BEP peddling this "silver bullet" on a book and speaking tour. Hell, our administrators would fly dozens of people whereever they had to to get that snake oil. Heh.

Seriously though....of course you are right; the problem is taxpayers aren't willing to foot the bill for that sort of INDIVIDUALIZED attention for all the kids that need it.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:16 PM
Yep. Gosh, think of the money you could manke BEP peddling this "silver bullet" on a book and speaking tour. Hell, our administrators would fly dozens of people whereever they had to to get that snake oil. Heh.

Seriously though....of course you are right; the problem is taxpayers aren't willing to foot the bill for that sort of INDIVIDUALIZED attention for all the kids that need it.

You don't need to individualize it if previously used methods which were highly successful were re-implemented. Heck I had 50 kids in my class in Catholic school, and there was only one moron who never got it. Not a third of the class.

And it need not cost a penny more. It requires the teacher colleges to change.

But I am using my design/illustration skills to come up with my own systematic phonics system. I doubt the school system will used it. They dedicated to mediocrity and things that don't work. Small classes won't be enough.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:17 PM
Old teachers in the past....didn't have nearly the complexity of social factors and issues facing them that many urban educators do either. And they had stronger support at home, and....yes, from parents. Your refusal to recognize the patently obvious is disappointing--if unsurprising.

That just bullshit. This is the thinking of failure and bureaucracy and blaming other things. I am not saying education doesn't begin with the parent. But mine were never involved in my homework or school. Only when I failed math in the 4th grade did they get me a tutor which didn't work. I had been moved to 4 schools in one year from them moving around is what happened and I just missed fractions and decimels was all.

You're part of the problem Kotter. This is why those in the system can't fix it.

NewChief
02-03-2010, 08:17 PM
You don't need to individualize it if previously used methods which were highly successful were re-implemented. Heck I had 50 kids in my class in Catholic school, and there was only one moron who never got it.


As the parent of one such likely "moron." Fuck you.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:20 PM
As the parent of one such likely "moron." **** you.

I am not talking literally about a moron or a retarded kid as an insult. I am talking about one kid that would never get it no matter what. This girl was not a special ed needs kid.

The Mad Crapper
02-03-2010, 08:24 PM
MOONBATTERY MARCHES ON!

NewChief
02-03-2010, 08:28 PM
I am not talking literally about a moron or a retarded kid as an insult. I am talking about one kid that would never get it no matter what. This girl was not a special ed needs kid.

I'm just tired of your complete lack of humility and your constantly pretending to have the answer to everything. I work on a daily basis with kids who can't read in 11th grade. Many of them have some moderate to severe LD. It's not that ****ing easy to teach them how to read. It's definitely possible, but to act like there's some silver bullet (to borrow Kotter's term) to this problem isn't right. Our school leaders get sold a new silver bullet every other year (and invest the money for it... first it was Literacy Lab. Now it's Read 180) yet the problem persists. For those of us on the ground floor, doing the research, doing the work on a daily basis.... we know the truth: it's just hard ****ing work. And we're going to fail more times than we succeed with this population. There's too much shit working against us the other 23 hours of these kids' days.

fan4ever
02-03-2010, 08:29 PM
That won't be enough. Every teacher needs to undergo massive retraining. We can begin by emptying out all the teacher colleges of their professors.
I will admit that is a start though.

I wondering where all these bad parents are I've been hearing about from a certain teacher. I am tutoring first and second graders under a NCLB grant and the parents seem to care about their children's progress.

Of course; the parents that don't care aren't having their kids tutored.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:36 PM
Of course; the parents that don't care aren't having their kids tutored.

There's tons of them being tutored however. And it's free. So money isn't the
problem. There's massive amounts of tutoring going on. Parents that don't care are not from my experience the majority. I am not talking about ghetto
areas.

Besides, I've been told my sister was one of those bad parents when her kids were labeled "learning disabled." When they really werent. She was told it was still all her fault even after using the govt provided tutors. This in a wealthy upscale school in her neighborhood. Finally she had to pay $25,000 per year for each of two kids to remediate them. So what was used? A systematic phonics approach. Kids were turned around in two years. Of course she waited too long...until age ten. He took a lot of convincing to her to finally break out of the school system to fix it.

Way to many kids are being unfairly labeled.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:42 PM
I'm just tired of your complete lack of humility and your constantly pretending to have the answer to everything.
Well pardon me for being a one to use solutions instead of reiterating how something can't be done or fixed. People like that WANT the problem are just too apathetic to think it can change. So I have ideas I believe in because I think can work better. Didn't know it was such a no-no.

I work on a daily basis with kids who can't read in 11th grade. Many of them have some moderate to severe LD. It's not that ****ing easy to teach them how to read.
There's too much labeling of children as being learning disabled and it wasn't as widespread at one time as it's claimed to be now. Sorry this is my beef.

It's definitely possible, but to act like there's some silver bullet (to borrow Kotter's term) to this problem isn't right. Our school leaders get sold a new silver bullet every other year (and invest the money for it... first it was Literacy Lab. Now it's Read 180) yet the problem persists. For those of us on the ground floor, doing the research, doing the work on a daily basis.... we know the truth: it's just hard ****ing work. And we're going to fail more times than we succeed with this population. There's too much shit working against us the other 23 hours of these kids' days.Just because you're labeling it a silver bullet doesn't mean it involves no work. There really was a time in this country where kids could learn to read without the excessive labeling going on. That's a sign of massive failure. It just shouldn't be. All this tells me is that the wrong people are being listened to for solving the problem.....people who themselves were educated in the same system.

I work on this program with an old teacher in her late sixties who says the same thing. There wasn't this bad a problem before. Something changed.
I also know Sam Blumenfeld who turns kids around routinely by implementing phonics. It doesn't have to be this way. What worked before can work again.

NewChief
02-03-2010, 08:45 PM
Well pardon me for being a one to use solutions instead of reiterating how something can't be done or fixed. People like that WANT the problem are just too apathetic to think it can change.


There's too much labeling of children as being learning disabled and it wasn't as widespread at one time as it's claimed to be now. Sorry this is my beef.

Just because you're labeling it a silver bullet doesn't mean it involves no work. There really was a time in this country where kids could learn to read without the excessive labeling going on. That's a sign of massive failure. It just shouldn't be. All this tells me is that the wrong people are being listened to for solving the problem.....people who themselves were educated in the same system.

I work on this program with an old teacher in her late sixties who says the same thing. There wasn't this bad a problem before. Something changed.
I also know Sam Blumenfeld who turns kids around routinely by implementing phonics. It doesn't have to be this way. What worked before can work again.

It's not that you think you have solutions. It's that you think you have THE solution. You don't seem to have any understanding of the other perspective and the possibility that some people might actually know more than you do about any given subject.

The problem with phonics is that it allows for exceptional decoding ability, but that doesn't guarantee comprehension. As such, kids decode just fine through about 6th grade. Then they start trying to tackle advanced content texts, and they start flailing with higher comprehension of more abstract texts.

That being said, I'm not completely downing phonics or embracing whole language. I'm just trying to tell you why phonics moved out of vogue. Phonics is awesome to a certain point. You'll get kids who can "read" just fine. Does th at guarantee that they're comprehending what they read (especially when they get into advanced texts?). Absolutely not.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:49 PM
The problem with phonics is that it allows for exceptional decoding ability, but that doesn't guarantee comprehension.
You're right on the comprehension. That part requires knowing the definitions to words, that words can have more than one definition and sound dictionary skills. Not to mention grammar.

First the letters have to be recognized as standing for a sound. Then the word has to be recognized. Then knowing what the word means is necessary. They need pictures and experience to help when younger. That's what am doing.

As such, kids decode just fine through about 6th grade. Then they start trying to tackle advanced content texts, and they start flailing with higher comprehension of more abstract texts.
Not all kids decode fine. As I understand not all schools that use phonics use it systematically but mix it with other methods. ( there are times I think sight words are fine).

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 08:53 PM
It's not that you think you have solutions. It's that you think you have THE solution.
Yes I do. So don't a lot of other people here. No one else changes their opinion here either. I just happen to know educators who have written books on the topics who have fixed children incorrectly labeled, or read their books, tried their ideas and found they worked and like to pass it on to help. I used to be part of a group that helped parents get their kids out of the public schools instead of waiting for them to be fixed. Thst currently they are not reformable.

You don't seem to have any understanding of the other perspective and the possibility that some people might actually know more than you do about any given subject.
I don't post on topics in such manner if I haven't studied it, generally. I stay out of those threads or just give an opinion or say I haven't kept up.
Wasn't it you who agreed with me on alternating academic subjects with art, music or PE and that these helped children learn better. I thinks so.
I got that from my kid's school as well as restricting tv and video games. It works.

NewChief
02-03-2010, 08:56 PM
You're right on the comprehension. That part requires knowing the definitions to words, that words can have more than one definition and sound dictionary skills. Not to mention grammar.

Right. But you're still discounting what really constitutes comprehension. Comprehension is the ability to internalize what you're reading. To connect it to existing schema in the brain and make the knowledge your own for later recall. That's where we really run into problems at the secondary level (and here I'm not talking about remedial kids... I'm talking about all kids). They start to get into more abstract texts containing less concrete concepts, and they start struggling. That's something that no amount of phonics can cure. They need a whole set of comprehension skills that they don't have, for whatever reason.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 09:02 PM
Right. But you're still discounting what really constitutes comprehension. Comprehension is the ability to internalize what you're reading. To connect it to existing schema in the brain and make the knowledge your own for later recall. That's where we really run into problems at the secondary level (and here I'm not talking about remedial kids... I'm talking about all kids). They start to get into more abstract texts containing less concrete concepts, and they start struggling. That's something that no amount of phonics can cure. They need a whole set of comprehension skills that they don't have, for whatever reason.

I wasn't talking about the secondary level anyway. I was talking about the elementary level. I don't know if I'd agree with how you describe comprehension but it appears to be what I meant about having experiences. Such things can require demonstration in use to round it out. In other words applying the concept somehow. Really though, just get some kid to give you the definition to one word and see if he can do it. I find they often can't or it's um uh!

FWIW, I do get kids at college level who tell me they just cannot read. Not only that but they cannot even write a sentence with a clear thought. Sorry but that's not abstract concepts. I can see anyone one of us having some inability with certain abstract concepts because we're not all capable of being physicists or mathematicians or some such. There is IQ and aptitude. However, some people are simply amazing at explaining and demonstrating hard to understand concepts in the simplest terms that others not at their level of IQ can grasp easily. I've met people like that who have helped me. It just needs to be put in a different way for some.

Then some people have no use or purpose for a subject which affects their learning. I can understand that one.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 09:11 PM
John just look at all the threads I am not posting in. Just because you and I don't agree on WWII or some issues doesn't mean what you think it does. I am just not a statist like you.

JOhn
02-03-2010, 09:18 PM
John just look at all the threads I am not posting in. Just because you and I don't agree on WWII or some issues doesn't mean what you think it does. I am just not a statist like you.

ROFL

Statist? ROFL

Now that's funny shit. But read your Neg rep I returned to you.

Unlike you, I know I don't know everything or have the solution to all.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 09:19 PM
Did you say something?

Gracie Dean
02-03-2010, 09:24 PM
1. All teams must make the state playoffs, and all will win the championship. If a team does not win the championship, they will be on probation until they are the champions, and coaches will be held accountable.
2. All kids will be expected to have the same football skills at the same time and in the same conditions. No exceptions will be made for interest in football, a desire to perform athletically, or genetic abilities or disabilities. ALL KIDS WILL PLAY FOOTBALL AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL.
3. When players arrive at any game with remedial skills in football for any reason, their coaches will be penalized for their performance, regardless of how long the players have been on the team. cjk
4. If remedial players do not achieve proficiency by the next statistically recorded game, their coaches and athletic directors will be put on probation. After several games of probation, coaches and athletic directors may be released. Coach and athletic director probation and release will not be conditional on the size of gains in the remedial players football skills; players must reach proficiency. cjk
5. Talented players will be asked to work out on their own without instruction. Coaches will use all their instructional time with the athletes who aren’t interested in football, have limited athletic ability or whose parents don’t like football.
6. All coaches will be proficient in all aspects of football, or they will be released.
7. Games will be played year round, but statistics will only be kept in the 4th, 8th and 11th games.
8. This will create a New Age of sports where every school is expected to have the same level of talent and all teams will reach the same minimal goals.
If no football player gets ahead, then no football player will be left behind.

Gracie Dean
02-03-2010, 09:26 PM
No Dentist Left Behind


My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups.
He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth.

When I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.
"Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said.

"No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?" "It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as excellent, good, average, below average, and unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. The plan will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better," I said. "Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice."

"That's terrible," he said.

"What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?" "Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is
practicing good dentistry."

"Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me."

"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele, and that much depends on things we can't control? For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle-class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem, and I don't get to do much preventive work. Also, many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off, so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?"


"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. "I can't believe that you, my dentist, would be so defensive. After all, you do a great job, and you needn't fear a little accountability."

"I am not being defensive!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most."

"Don't' get touchy," I said.

"Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red, and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious! In a system like this, I will end
up being rated average, below average, or worse. The few educated patients I have who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating is an actual measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"

"I think you are overreacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse-making and stonewalling won't improve dental health'... I am quoting from a leading member of the DOC," I noted. "What's the DOC?" he asked. "It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly lay persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved"

"Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully. The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?"

"Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes."
"That's too complicated, expensive and time- consuming," I said.

"Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure."

"That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly. "Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some."

"How?" he asked. if you receive a poor rating, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly. "You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? BIG HELP!" "There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all."

"You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score made on a test of children's progress with no regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools."

I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. "I'm going to write my representatives and senators," he said. "I'll use the school analogy. Surely they will see the point."

He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I, a teacher, see in the mirror so often lately. If you don't understand why educators resent the recent federal NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT, this may help. If you do understand, you'll enjoy this analogy.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 10:41 PM
You don't need to individualize it if previously used methods which were highly successful were re-implemented. Heck I had 50 kids in my class in Catholic school, and there was only one moron who never got it. Not a third of the class.

And it need not cost a penny more. It requires the teacher colleges to change.

But I am using my design/illustration skills to come up with my own systematic phonics system. I doubt the school system will used it. They dedicated to mediocrity and things that don't work. Small classes won't be enough.

So, you wanna compare private Catholic School ... that can, and are "selective" with acceptance and enrollment which exclude challenging and problematic kids that public schools are required/forced to accept, and "must" educate (even when they've been rejected by private schools) ... and you, truly, expect the "same" results, regardless of the system???

:spock:


LMAO

ClevelandBronco
02-03-2010, 10:42 PM
Your fable convinced me. We should stop funding dentistry.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 11:10 PM
Your fable convinced me. We should stop funding dentistry.

Laugh if you will, man; it's just as ridiculous as what NCLB expects of teachers.

ClevelandBronco
02-03-2010, 11:15 PM
Laugh if you will, man; it's just as ridiculous as what NCLB expects of teachers.

It's not what we expect. It's what we demand.

Now sit down like a good public servant and do your job without all the bitching, please.

Mr. Kotter
02-03-2010, 11:17 PM
It's not what we expect. It's what we demand.

Now sit down like a good public servant and do your job without all the bitching, please.

For $20 an hour too.

"That's right, bi-atch."

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BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 11:49 PM
So, you wanna compare private Catholic School ... that can, and are "selective" with acceptance and enrollment which exclude challenging and problematic kids that public schools are required/forced to accept, and "must" educate (even when they've been rejected by private schools) ... and you, truly, expect the "same" results, regardless of the system???

:spock:


LMAO
That wasn't true at my school or in my day. There were no admissions tests. No one was removed ( went with all the same kids up to Grade 8) and all were accepted in as far as I know as all my friends went. Even when I was failing math they kept me. ( fixed later) We had slow or not too bright kids too. It was NOT an elite school.

I saw kids who were considered problems getting in trouble or grabbed by the ear etc.

Don't forget it was the RCC that took it upon itself to educate it's young in this country via donations from the parishes. It wasn't elitest. That was why public education was pushed. The protestants were afraid the Catholics would get the upper hand. Even Jefferson feared that. In fact the first university in the Americas was put there by the RCC. Harvard was instituted to compete with it. It was also the RCC that took the young from poor families to educate them.

Your operating on the presumption all private schools are all elite schools. They are not. Some are.

It is very important to note that a substantial number of children from highly literate households and who have been read to by their parents since very early in life also have difficulties learning to read.

Lyon, G. Reid. "Report on Learning Disabilities Research." Prepared Statement to the Committee on Education and the Workforce. U.S. House of Representatives, APA Science Advocacy (July 10, 1997).



In 1998, the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) tested children nationwide for reading skills. The results for reading tests for 4th graders were:

Below the most basic level 38%
Proficient 31%
Advanced 7%


U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Educational Statistics. The Executive Summary of the 1998 National Assessment for Educational Progress Reading Report Card for the Nation, NCES 1999-50 (Washington, D.C.: March 1999).
http://www.succeedtoread.com/facts.html

Brock
02-03-2010, 11:52 PM
Grade 8? Are you Canadian?

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 11:54 PM
No. That school only went up to that grade. Then I went to HS.

ClevelandBronco
02-03-2010, 11:55 PM
Grade 8? Are you Canadian?

I think she's from N.E.

May as well be Canadian.

Jenson71
02-03-2010, 11:56 PM
The protestants were afraid the Catholics would get the upper hand. Even Jefferson feared that. In fact the first university in the Americas was put there by the RCC. Harvard was instituted to compete with it. It was also the RCC that took the young from poor families to educate them.

Other way around: the public schools were too Protestant, so the Catholics made their own.

BucEyedPea
02-03-2010, 11:58 PM
I think she's from N.E.

May as well be Canadian.

Hah! Hah! Well, there are Nova Scotians on my mother's side. That's about it though.

ClevelandBronco
02-03-2010, 11:59 PM
Hah! Hah! Well, there are Nova Scotians on my mother's side. That's about it though.

I figured if they were related to you they'd have to be PaleoScotians.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 12:04 AM
Other way around: the public schools were too Protestant, so the Catholics made their own.

Not only that...but she insists on living in the past, 50+ years ago.

Behavorial problems, IEPs, 504s, ELL, Immigrant....all, subgroups, that "drag" test scores, are significantly higher (usually, at least 3-5 times) the rate that private schools have contend with...yet public schools are measured by the same "standard" or stick? Please...don't insult our intelligence.

Anyone with half a brain can see, it ain't even close to a fair comparison.

Not according to my data. The Catholics were educating much earlier—long before public schools. That may have come later for that reason. Or you're not talking about publically supported schools as we know them today which came later.Catholic education goes back deep to 1600s even in the US. My source on that is Sam Blumenfeld who is an educator, remedial tutor and education historian with several books on history of ed in America.

Bullshit....Horace Mann and MA public ed, predates any significant Catholic private schools in the country, if for no other reason than significant numbers of Catholics didn't arrive off the boats until 50-100 years or so later than Mann was doing his thing.

:rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 12:08 AM
Other way around: the public schools were too Protestant, so the Catholics made their own.

Not according to my data. The Catholics were educating much earlier—long before public schools. That may have come later for that reason. Or you're not talking about publically supported schools as we know them today which came later.Catholic education goes back deep to 1600s even in the US. My source on that is Sam Blumenfeld who is an educator, remedial tutor and education historian with several books on history of ed in America.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 12:13 AM
Not according to my data....

I'm convinced.... :rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 12:16 AM
Not only that...but she insists on living in the past, 50+ years ago.
No I am talking about using what worked before. It was fixed when it wasn't all that broke.

Behavorial problems, IEPs, 504s, ELL, Immigrant....all, subgroups, that "drag" test scores, are significantly higher (usually, at least 3-5 times) the rate that private schools have contend with...yet public schools are measured by the same "standard" or stick? Please...don't insult our intelligence.
You think there were no behavior problems back then? Kids dropped out all the time....and some became successful businessmen too. There were plenty of immigrants too. Plenty! Like the Irish, Italians and Chinese. In fact the Italians of the early 1900's didn't trust education. So many became laborers. Many Italians spoke that before English. That was true of my dad even. Still certain time tested methods can benefit all of them. I tutor Mexican kids who speak Spanish at home. Some are very bright a few are not.

You should check out Thomas Sowell's Ethnic America to see how each of the immigrant groups treated education. They didn't all treat it equally valuable. Certain ones did more than others.IEPs...well I am for individualizing things for certain students including gifted.

Anyone with half a brain can see, it ain't even close to a fair comparison.
Like I said certain methods work on all of them. Phonics works terrific on Spanish-speaking Mexican kids because that's what I am doing. Check out a phonics book on how it works on them. Nope, sorry you believe in what you were trained in, like most people. People inside can't fix it for this reason.

Jenson71
02-04-2010, 12:18 AM
Not according to my data. The Catholics were educating much earlier—long before public schools. That may have come later for that reason. Or you're not talking about publically supported schools as we know them today which came later.Catholic education goes back deep to 1600s even in the US. My source on that is Sam Blumenfeld who is an educator, remedial tutor and education historian with several books on history of ed in America.

Nah. The rise of Catholic parochial schools occurred in the late 19th century, a good 50 years or so after the push for public schools with Horace Mann.

The oldest Catholic university in America is Georgetown. That opened around the time the Constitution was being put together. But sure, there were some small antecedents to it.

Of course, Catholic education goes back to the middle ages and the Carolingian Renaissance. But that was strictly universities.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 12:18 AM
I'm convinced.... :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: I wasn't talking to you or trying to convince you. Don't get so full of yourself now.
Since you insist:National Catholic Educational Association
http://www.ncea.org/about/HistoricalOverviewofCatholicSchoolsInAmerica.asp

BTW I think all schools including private are having some problems. Like I said, it's the teacher colleges. That's where a lot of things changed.
They're victims too. High alcoholism rate I hear.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 12:22 AM
No I am talking about using what worked before. It was fixed when it wasn't all that broke.


You think there were no behavior problems back then? Kids dropped out all the time....and some became successful businessmen too. There were plenty of immigrants too. Plenty! Like the Irish, Italians and Chinese. In fact the Italians of the early 1900's didn't trust education. So many became laborers. Many Italians spoke that before English. That was true of my dad even. Still certain time tested methods can benefit all of them. I tutor Mexican kids who speak Spanish at home. Some are very bright a few are not.

You should check out Thomas Sowell's Ethnic America to see how each of the immigrant groups treated education. They didn't all treat it equally valuable. Certain ones did more than others.IEPs...well I am for individualizing things for certain students including gifted.


Like I said certain methods work on all of them. Phonics works terrific on Spanish-speaking Mexican kids because that's what I am doing. Check out a phonics book on how it works on them. Nope, sorry you believe in what you were trained in, like most people. People inside can't fix it for this reason.

BEP, you are preaching to the choir here; seriously. I'm a phonics advocate.

However, it ain't no damn silver bullet; despite your self-proclaimed, and misguided, expertise. It works for many, which is why schools HAVE gone back to it; but it still falls short with many...despite your anecdotal accounts.

Bottom-line: a varied approach, including phonics for many, works well....but doesn't begin to address the many problems and mitigating circumstances which you continue to ignore, and would like to "wish" away.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 12:25 AM
BEP, you are preaching to the choir here; seriously. I'm a phonics advocate.

However, it ain't no damn silver bullet; despite your self-proclaimed, and misguided, expertise. It works for many, which is why schools HAVE gone back to it; but it still falls short with many...despite your anecdotal accounts.

Bottom-line: a varied approach, including phonics for many, works well....but doesn't begin to address the many problems and mitigating circumstances which you continue to ignore, and would like to "wish" away.

I'm not ignoring them. I am addressing what parts the schools can fix here. Phonics, a systematic approach, had dropped out in a lot of schools.
Some of the problems, including behavior can be tied to frustration due to bad methods too. Afterall, if a child is winning they're happier.
I've admitted before that the public school model will always have some limitations private schools don't have to have if they don't want them.
I also don't think an intellectual education is for everyone either. I am talking about parts that can be fixed.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 12:28 AM
:rolleyes: I wasn't talking to you or trying to convince you. Don't get so full of yourself now.

BTW I think all schools including private are having some problems. Like I said, it's the teacher colleges. They're victims too.
High alcoholism rate I hear.

I don't disagree, that teacher colleges DEFINITELY need to improve.

However, your critique is overly simplistic; it's not all the problem. Not even close. Frankly, you seem willing to ignore many of the real problems ... because, well, it doesn't fit with your ideological worldview. Too bad.

Critical thinking IS useful; but you have to discard those preconceived notions and prejudices....that all of us carry. Your burden skews everything you see, it would appear. For whatever reason though, you seem content there. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Later.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 12:35 AM
However, your critique is overly simplistic; This is a freakin' message or bulletin board. What do you want for short posts? A book? I can recommend a few.

it's not all the problem. Not even close. Frankly, you seem willing to ignore many of the real problems ... because, well, it doesn't fit with your ideological worldview. Too bad.
You ignore what I actually posted. This has nothing to do with ideology. This comes from working with educators and education authors, like Sam Blumenfeld who was invited to the WH under RR. Not to mention friends and family that teach in public schools one who share my position. He's not the only one. It was through these people I learned about the experimental fads that entered the public schools beginning in 1966 which is where SAT scores started to drop. This began in the teacher colleges.Columbia. In fact when I looked at schools for my kid back in 1998/99 one school told me the did not allow any teacher under the age 30 to teach K to Grade 3 due to how they were trained. Those were the teachers trained in Whole Language reading. From there I picked up the recommended books and sat in on Ks etc. Then more I learned from my kid's school.

Critical thinking IS useful; but you have to discard those preconceived notions and prejudices....that all of us carry. Your burden skews everything you see, it would appear. For whatever reason though, you seem content there. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Later.

Nice projection there. Again, another reason why those on the inside will never fix the situation. It's a system that demands conformity.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 12:46 AM
This is a freakin' message or bulletin board. What do you want for short posts? A book? I can recommend a few....

Nice projection there. Again, another reason why those on the inside will never fix the situation. It's a system that demands conformity.

I've read more books on the subject than you ever knew existed; I guarantee it.

If there is projection going on here, it's you; a fine parent, with good intentions....who quite simply doesn't see the forest for the trees. You live in a world where anecdotal evidence and qualitative "study" trumps the quanitative reality of decades of research. What you consider "conformity" is reality....a reality that you refuse to accept.

Good night, and sweet dreams in that Utopia you've created for yourself, my friend.

Jenson71
02-04-2010, 12:51 AM
\
Since you insist:National Catholic Educational Association
http://www.ncea.org/about/HistoricalOverviewofCatholicSchoolsInAmerica.asp


That link basically validates what I said in my posts.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 10:41 AM
...even in inner-city schools with disadvantaged children and broken infrastructure. Of course, Marva was fed up with the school bureaucracy too. ( major part of the problem too) Marva's classes weren't small either. There were no frills. Just focus on the three R's—the basics. There's several children in this class, who were written off as hopeless or disabled, went on to achieve their goals. At 4:59 a student said they learned the meanings of words to develop their vocabulary. It worked!

Charles Murray's book reached a false conclusion. I hate to use the race card but it applies to his conclusions.


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NewChief
02-04-2010, 12:03 PM
Here's a video that I think does a lot of address some of the issues and problems in education:

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Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 12:08 PM
BEP, you are arguing with yourself; no one contends that nearly every student can't learn. The problem is not simply "training" or "method" of instruction; different methods work with different kids. Some methods are more successful with nearly any kid, and others are more successful with certain groups. As you say, all kids can learn. Duh.

The problem is that there are not enough truly capable, dedicated, and well-trained teachers to deal with the numbers we are talking about. And, no, "training" and "methods" are not a silver-bullet--despite your zealous over-simplification. Getting enough good well-trained teachers to the right schools simply isn't feasilbe, given the fiscal constraints.

The first problem, as I have already said is....not enough of our best and brightest choose teaching as a career. Thus, there are many teachers, frankly, who despite their best intentions are simply not up to the task. Secondly, only a very few of the most dedicated teachers CHOOSE to work in challenging urban environments. For too many of us, the emotional stress, physical threats, and extraordinary efforts necessary to do those jobs are simply NOT worth the few extra dollars that those districts sometimes offer as incentives.

Why in the heck would you work in KC, MO public schools for $60-70K....when a much less stressful job in Olathe or Lawrence could be had for about $10K less? You wouldn't.

There simply are not enough GOOD teachers to do that job you are asking them to do....and taxpayers are not willing to foot the bill (FTR, understandably, in this case) for the sort of individualized instruction that you are suggesting (even if you don't think that's what you are suggesting, you are.)

Brock
02-04-2010, 12:18 PM
It isn't the teachers or the schools, it's the completely screwed up homes these kids come out of, if they even have a home.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 12:44 PM
It isn't the teachers or the schools, it's the completely screwed up homes these kids come out of, if they even have a home.

That's a huge part of it, despite BEP's Pollyanna/Horatio Alger perspective on the problems facing many kids.

In fairness to BEP though, better and more individualized instruction along with more of our best and brightest in the profession....WOULD have a big impact. Unfortunately, that would be quite costly too--which is why progress is so difficult.

Calcountry
02-04-2010, 12:54 PM
Or blame it on the parents.

It's really the methods that are the biggest problem particularly for reading in the early grades.That is the basis for all future learning. The move to smaller groups helps. But some tutoring groups are even too big. Some kids just flat out need one-on-one or just two. That's makes a difference.I blame it on the failed policies of the prevous administration.

Calcountry
02-04-2010, 01:00 PM
It's not that you think you have solutions. It's that you think you have THE solution. You don't seem to have any understanding of the other perspective and the possibility that some people might actually know more than you do about any given subject.

The problem with phonics is that it allows for exceptional decoding ability, but that doesn't guarantee comprehension. As such, kids decode just fine through about 6th grade. Then they start trying to tackle advanced content texts, and they start flailing with higher comprehension of more abstract texts.

That being said, I'm not completely downing phonics or embracing whole language. I'm just trying to tell you why phonics moved out of vogue. Phonics is awesome to a certain point. You'll get kids who can "read" just fine. Does th at guarantee that they're comprehending what they read (especially when they get into advanced texts?). Absolutely not.In BEP's world, Ron Paul is the solution to education, and everything else for that matter. Including foreign policy in the middle east. According to her, we could end the whole war on terror by withdrawing completely from any involvement in the middle east. Just stick to the domestic policy, and go totally isolationist ala Woodrow Wilson.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 02:30 PM
In BEP's world, Ron Paul is the solution to education, and everything else for that matter. Including foreign policy in the middle east. According to her, we could end the whole war on terror by withdrawing completely from any involvement in the middle east. Just stick to the domestic policy, and go totally isolationist ala Woodrow Wilson.


Pretty much, it would seem. Heh.

Chief Faithful
02-04-2010, 02:35 PM
I don't know the details of this situation, but Teacher Unions and NAACP sue only to protect themselves not to serve the individual, public, or end user.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 02:37 PM
I don't know the details of this situation, but Teacher Unions and NAACP sue only to protect themselves not to serve the individual, public, or end user.

I'm not big on unions (personally, I've never been a "member"), but the idea that teachers do not serve the public, and seek to better society...is laughable. We may disagree over methods, but don't be blind about it.

vailpass
02-04-2010, 02:41 PM
I'm not big on unions (personally, I've never been a "member"), but the idea that teachers do not serve the public, and seek to better society...is laughable. We may disagree over methods, but don't be blind about it.

X10

Chief Faithful
02-04-2010, 02:47 PM
I'm not big on unions (personally, I've never been a "member"), but the idea that teachers do not serve the public, and seek to better society...is laughable. We may disagree over methods, but don't be blind about it.

I'm not the blind one in this case. Teachers serve the public, but the Teachers Union does not. They are a collective entity that strictly serve the teachers as a whole not the individual or those the teachers serve. They protect their members and themselves.

A parralel you can relate would be the NFL players union. They serve the players as a whole not the owners, the game, or the fan. For example, if the player buys legal insurance from the union the plan first protects the union from liability and only protects the player at in a very limited means. The legal plans teachers buy through their union is no different.

Sometimes people think the teachers union serves the public because it is a perception the union wants you to believe. I see this dynamic daily through the work my wife does.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 02:49 PM
I'm not the blind one in this case. Teachers serve the public, but the Teachers Union does not. They are a collective entity that strictly serve the teachers as a whole not the individual or those the teachers serve. They protect their members and themselves.

Like the Chamber of Commerce, and similar business groups that lobby Congress and stae legislatures, you mean?

Guess we should completely ignore what those self-serving groups tell us too, right?

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 03:00 PM
I'm not the blind one in this case. Teachers serve the public, but the Teachers Union does not. They are a collective entity that strictly serve the teachers as a whole not the individual or those the teachers serve. They protect their members and themselves.

A parralel you can relate would be the NFL players union. They serve the players as a whole not the owners, the game, or the fan. For example, if the player buys legal insurance from the union the plan first protects the union from liability and only protects the player at in a very limited means. The legal plans teachers buy through their union is no different.

Sometimes people think the teachers union serves the public because it is a perception the union wants you to believe. I see this dynamic daily through the work my wife does.

So, we shouldn't ever listen to anything, say, business groups or organiations and corporations say either....because, well, it's just self-serving greedy bastards who don't give a damn about anything but themselves and the profits for their shareholders, right?

Thanks for showing me the light, man.

Brock
02-04-2010, 03:00 PM
I'm not the blind one in this case. Teachers serve the public, but the Teachers Union does not. They are a collective entity that strictly serve the teachers as a whole not the individual or those the teachers serve. They protect their members and themselves.

If that's the case, the union is doing a piss poor job of it. There's a teacher on this board who is burning through her savings to try and keep what's left of her health, and that's a union negotiated health care package.

The Mad Crapper
02-04-2010, 03:08 PM
If that's the case, the union is doing a piss poor job of it. There's a teacher on this board who is burning through her savings to try and keep what's left of her health, and that's a union negotiated health care package.

You're breaking my heart, baby.

Brock
02-04-2010, 03:11 PM
You're breaking my heart, baby.

Your breath smells like shit.

The Mad Crapper
02-04-2010, 03:18 PM
Your breath smells like shit.

Wake up, you were dreaming about your mother again.

Amnorix
02-04-2010, 03:23 PM
Hope and change! Wish you had that vote back teach?

:facepalm:



So....you're saying Obama is to blame for some under performing schools in New York City?

You are indeed a genious...

Brock
02-04-2010, 03:25 PM
Wake up, you were dreaming about your mother again.

You remain who I thought you were. Bye.

Amnorix
02-04-2010, 03:29 PM
I'm just tired of your complete lack of humility and your constantly pretending to have the answer to everything. I work on a daily basis with kids who can't read in 11th grade. Many of them have some moderate to severe LD. It's not that ****ing easy to teach them how to read. It's definitely possible, but to act like there's some silver bullet (to borrow Kotter's term) to this problem isn't right. Our school leaders get sold a new silver bullet every other year (and invest the money for it... first it was Literacy Lab. Now it's Read 180) yet the problem persists. For those of us on the ground floor, doing the research, doing the work on a daily basis.... we know the truth: it's just hard ****ing work. And we're going to fail more times than we succeed with this population. There's too much shit working against us the other 23 hours of these kids' days.

You're just projecting! Strawmen!! Utopian dysfunctional imperialistic Monarchist Mercantilistic NeoConning LabelWearer!


SO THERE!

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 03:57 PM
It's utterly amazing to me how....on the one hand, teacher unions are self-serving, have no credibility, and are to be ignored. Yet, business and commercial interest groups....well, THEY are different; they speak for capitalism, and whatever they believe....well THAT...."that's what will be best for the entire nation, by God! To oppose business interests---well, then you must be a damn COMMUNIST!!!"

What a friggin' joke; give us a stinkin' break..... LMAO

FTR, business is a vital and important part of American life and prosperity. However, blind faith in the free market and capitalism to create a better society is as misguided as blind faith in the government to do the same. They are mirror-images of the lunatic fringe.

Jenson71
02-04-2010, 04:01 PM
In BEP's world, Ron Paul is the solution to education, and everything else for that matter. Including foreign policy in the middle east. According to her, we could end the whole war on terror by withdrawing completely from any involvement in the middle east. Just stick to the domestic policy, and go totally isolationist ala Woodrow Wilson.

:spock:

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 05:54 PM
So, we shouldn't ever listen to anything, say, business groups or organiations and corporations say either....because, well, it's just self-serving greedy bastards who don't give a damn about anything but themselves and the profits for their shareholders, right?

Thanks for showing me the light, man.

Yep. That's what I thought.

Gracie Dean
02-04-2010, 06:32 PM
I'm not big on unions (personally, I've never been a "member"), but the idea that teachers do not serve the public, and seek to better society...is laughable. We may disagree over methods, but don't be blind about it.

YUP

Gracie Dean
02-04-2010, 06:33 PM
If that's the case, the union is doing a piss poor job of it. There's a teacher on this board who is burning through her savings to try and keep what's left of her health, and that's a union negotiated health care package.

YUP

and working full time against doctor's wishes because the 70% disability pay wouldn't cover the bills

Gracie Dean
02-04-2010, 06:34 PM
You're breaking my heart, baby.

you have no heart

The Mad Crapper
02-04-2010, 07:31 PM
you have no heart

Yeah, and you do? Riiiiiiiiiiiight. You're a f'n dragon.

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Coin_ExactChange_160.gif

NewChief
02-04-2010, 07:55 PM
Yeah, and you do? Riiiiiiiiiiiight. You're a f'n dragon.

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Coin_ExactChange_160.gif

Ahh, Shitty has entered into the completely repulsive, misanthropic stage of his posting cycle. Shouldn't be long before he morphs into Mister Hide-a-Racist and gets another ban.

I've got to say, I was impressed by the length of his "civil" phase this cycle.

Gracie Dean
02-04-2010, 08:01 PM
Yeah, and you do? Riiiiiiiiiiiight. You're a f'n dragon.

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Coin_ExactChange_160.gif

bwahaha too funny

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 08:19 PM
Pretty much, it would seem. Heh.

Wrong! This has nothing to do with any of Paul's views. Paul considers education a state and local matter and wouldn't tell another local area how to do their jobs. Now what was it you were saying about making things personal? Hmmm......you and calcountry got nuthin' it seems.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 08:25 PM
That's a huge part of it, despite BEP's Pollyanna/Horatio Alger perspective on the problems facing many kids.

In fairness to BEP though, better and more individualized instruction along with more of our best and brightest in the profession....WOULD have a big impact. Unfortunately, that would be quite costly too--which is why progress is so difficult.

Oh I bet you love Brock's responsibility as blame it all on the parents or blame it all on the public. Imagine if a private provider had that attitude where they'd be? Out-of-business.

I said nothing about individualizing education in this thread. You on the other hand are full of excuses— and apathy.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 08:48 PM
Oh I bet you love Brock's responsibility as blame it all on the parents or blame it all on the public. Imagine if a private provider had that attitude where they'd be? Out-of-business.

I said nothing about individualizing education in this thread. You on the other hand are full of excuses— and apathy.

Business can refuse to do business with whomever they wish. And, often they do. They make decisions constantly deciding how much give-and-take they are willing to engage in--just like we do in education. Many of them DO go out of business. Everyday--because the sacrifices the "market" would require of them, are simply not worth it. We hear about how small town businesses just can't compete with Walmart all the time, don't we?

In your world, you imagine that businesses bow to every demand of customers. If that were true, you would have businesses selling products for whatever price customers demand---and providing services, no matter how costly or unreasonable, simply because customers demand them. Gosh, brand new Cadillacs for $5,000 below dealer cost--wouldn't that be great!

No, real businesses in the real world don't operate like that, and schools operating on a taxpayer dictated budget can't either. In businesses and schools, customers get what they pay for. You can't afford a Cadillac? Guess you are gonna have to settle for a 5 yr old used Ford Focus then.

You are right that most, if not all students, CAN learn. The only way you can achieve that with many of the kids though (given the circumstances in which they live...) is through highly focused and very individualized instruction--regardless of whether you will admit it or not. Your idea that a more traditional phonics based approach is somehow a magic bullet, is pure hogwash. Yes, it does work with many kids, and it SHOULD be a part of a comprehensive district reading program. However, other methods work better for other kids in some situations. In many urban areas, due to circumstances in the home and community...that would leave many, many children in need of individualized instruction for which the public is not willing to pay.

Yet, here you are leading a charge for Dom Perion on a Pabst Blue Ribbon budget. Isn't that ironic?

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 08:50 PM
Here's a video that I think does a lot of address some of the issues and problems in education:

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Thought that was GREAT! I agree about the creativity. It's geared toward conformity. Loved the story of the girl who was a dancer being labeled as ADD and became a successful choreographer. Glad the parents didn't listen to the school on that.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 08:56 PM
Business can refuse to do business with whomever they wish. And, often they do. They make decisions constantly deciding how much give-and-take they are willing to engage in--just like we do in education. Many of them DO go out of business. Everyday--because the sacrifices the "market" would require of them, are simply not worth it. We hear about how small town businesses just can't compete with Walmart all the time, don't we?

In your world, you imagine that businesses bow to every demand of customers. If that were true, you would have businesses selling products for whatever price customers demand---and providing services, no matter how costly or unreasonable, simply because customers demand them. Gosh, brand new Cadillacs for $5,000 below dealer cost--wouldn't that be great!

No, schools on a taxpayer dictated budget cannot operate like that, but neither do businesses. In businesses and schools, customers get what they pay for. You can't afford a Cadillac? Guess you are gonna have to settle for a 5 yr old used Ford Focus then if you want a car.

You are right that most, if not all students, CAN learn. The only way you can achieve that with many of the kids though in the circumstances in which they live...is through highly focused and very individualized instruction--regardless of whether you will admit it or not. Your idea that a more traditional phonics based approach is somehow a magic bullet, is pure hogwash. Yes, it does work with many kids, and it SHOULD be a part of a comprehensive district reading program. However, other methods work better for other kids in some situations. In many urban areas, due to circumstances in the home and community...that would leave many, many children in need of individualized instruction for which the public is not willing to pay.

Yet, here you are leading a charge for Dom Perion on a Pabst Blue Ribbon budget. Isn't that ironic?

Look I am not saying highly focused individualized schooling isn't a wonderful ideal nor am I not acknowleding it's a luxury; or that it's practical.

Like I said before, not all kids need to have an intellectual education.

What I am saying is that in the past, at one time, before the fads, experimentation and removal of certain successful methods along with large classes the literacy level was still higher. If we can't match that then we haven't progressed.

I am more concerned with functional literacy and adequate skills needed in life to do whatever is needed for that person. Society doesn't need everyone able to write novels or do physics. I also think those who seek such subjects out do so because they are not only interested but usually have the aptitude.

You can misrepresent my argument as a magic bullet all you want but that's your extrapolation....it is not my argument.

NewChief
02-04-2010, 09:00 PM
Look I am not saying highly focused individualized schooling isn't a wonderful ideal nor am I not acknowleding it's a luxury; or that it's practical.

Like I said before, not all kids need to have an intellectual education.
What I am saying is that in the past, at one time, before the fads, experimentation and removal of certain successful methods along with large classes the literacy level was still higher. I am more concerned with functional literacy and adequate skills needed in life or whatever is needed for that person. Society doesn't need everyone able to write novels or do physics. I also think those who seek such subjects out do so because they are not only interested but usually have the aptitude.

You're getting at the "real" problem now. We, unfortunately, have a different definition of what we want students to do at this point than at previous points in history. There is little in the way of technical/career track type schooling anymore. Like the TED talk I posted, it's like we're training everyone to be little college professors. The result is that we're trying to fit square pegs into round holes, and driving a lot of students away from engagement in their education in the process.

There is a lot of positive shit happening in education right now on the cutting edge. The problem is that when most people discuss education, they're discussing stuff that's about 10 years in the past compared to what's actually happening on the ground at this point in time.

The Obama administration, sadly, seems to be pretty behind the curve as well. They're still wanting to turn out nothing but Science and Engineer geniuses (see the STEM emphasis) and ignoring the fact that Science and Engineering isn't necessarily driving the economy of the future... especially our knowledge-based economy. Check into the writings of Daniel Pink if you want some ideas of what we need to be focusing on in school.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 09:09 PM
You're getting at the "real" problem now.
This is really a curriculum problem which is separate from methods. Methods still need addressing. But yeah, I agree generally.

We, unfortunately, have a different definition of what we want students to do at this point than at previous points in history. There is little in the way of technical/career track type schooling anymore. Like the TED talk I posted, it's like we're training everyone to be little college professors. The result is that we're trying to fit square pegs into round holes, and driving a lot of students away from engagement in their education in the process.
My understanding has been since the 90's that there was going to be more focus on school to work. That was one thing that Schools 2000 was supposed to be about. Just to clarify, just because I say they don't all need to be intellectuals I do think there should be some general rounding out as part of a curriculum.

There is a lot of positive shit happening in education right now on the cutting edge. The problem is that when most people discuss education, they're discussing stuff that's about 10 years in the past compared to what's actually happening on the ground at this point in time.
My kid's been in a cutting edge school and some public schools have attempted to copy parts of it. I just don't know if that will work in a bit and piece manner. But anyhow, other than that. I'll have to wait and see what the results are to comment....since there has been such claims in the past.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 09:21 PM
Look I am not saying highly focused individualized schooling isn't a wonderful ideal nor am I not acknowleding it's a luxury; or that it's practical.

Like I said before, not all kids need to have an intellectual education.

What I am saying is that in the past, at one time, before the fads, experimentation and removal of certain successful methods along with large classes the literacy level was still higher. If we can't match that then we haven't progressed.

I am more concerned with functional literacy and adequate skills needed in life to do whatever is needed for that person. Society doesn't need everyone able to write novels or do physics. I also think those who seek such subjects out do so because they are not only interested but usually have the aptitude.

You can misrepresent my argument as a magic bullet all you want but that's your extrapolation....it is not my argument.

"In the past...." Surely you recognize that our world today is far different from the world as it existed even 30 years ago. Many more kids and families today don't have the same support and stability at home that existed in more families back then. Couple that with....expectations from society, for a one-size-fits all approach to education to include costly programs aimed at compensating for deleterious affects of that significant change in society, is it really any wonder many public schools in urban areas really struggle?

FTR, I would join you in supporting a tracking system that recognizes not all should be college bound, one that accepts and celebrates a vocational track, and values a track designed for functional literacy to prepare less intellectually oriented folks for becoming productive and efficient members of a labor force. However, what parent wants to say, "yeah, I guess my kid is gonna work in a kitchen in a nursing home?"

I've advocated a much more European style education system along those lines for a long, long time. But we are fighting the currents. Conventional wisdom and American public opinion, alas, are too enamored with a seductive, if unrealistic, radical egalitarian ambition....that you and I are seen as elitists. It is one of the biggest reasons too many public schools are struggling---that we are simply asking them to do something that isn't realistic: teach everyone as if they are on a college bound track. Everyone. It's in an incredibly debilitating diversion of effort, resources, and money.

In a phrase: it is the dumbing down of our schools--so that EVERYONE is "equal." And by making everyone "equal" we have tragically lowered the standards and expectations for EVERYONE....even our best and brightest. And, that, more than anything else is responsible for our nation's slide in education....when compared to other countries.

dirk digler
02-04-2010, 09:30 PM
What I am saying is that in the past, at one time, before the fads, experimentation and removal of certain successful methods along with large classes the literacy level was still higher. If we can't match that then we haven't progressed.

I am more concerned with functional literacy and adequate skills needed in life to do whatever is needed for that person. Society doesn't need everyone able to write novels or do physics. I also think those who seek such subjects out do so because they are not only interested but usually have the aptitude.



I have found this entire discussion fascinating and very educational especially reading what Kotter, NewPhin and even you BEP have talked about.

But the reason why I am picking this quote out is because when we all went to school it was a much different time and families were alot different. Most families sat down and ate dinner together, parents got involved in their kids schools, there was hardly any single parent families and kids didn't have all the distractions that they do today. There was no Internet, Facebook, twitter, cell phones, texting or video games. Heck I hardly ever got to watch TV and had to be in bed by 8:00pm.

So I think you have to concede that the family structure has changed so much that it has made teaching and kids learning a much harder job.

Jenson71
02-04-2010, 09:34 PM
What I am saying is that in the past, at one time, before the fads, experimentation and removal of certain successful methods along with large classes the literacy level was still higher. If we can't match that then we haven't progressed.

In the past . . . those glorious days of nuns with rulers, sack lunches, and school rooms with nothing but 50 desks and a chalkboard. Of course, income tax was very high and unions meant something. It's effect was stunning: a powerful and prosperous working and middle class. But that's socialism. We don't want socialism again. Better to have struggling families and schools than the socialism we had in the 1950s -- The Dark Ages.

dirk digler
02-04-2010, 09:37 PM
Heck I remember when the prinicipal used to spank students and was proud of his paddle weapon. Alot of them had nice big holes in them to be better aerodynamically and was displayed very prominently in his office.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 09:49 PM
In the past . . . those glorious days of nuns with rulers, sack lunches, and school rooms with nothing but 50 desks and a chalkboard. Of course, income tax was very high and unions meant something. It's effect was stunning: a powerful and prosperous working and middle class. But that's socialism. We don't want socialism again. Better to have struggling families and schools than the socialism we had in the 1950s -- The Dark Ages.

It was much less about a high income tax (very few paid the higher rates--government takes in much more as a percentage of GNP, today) and unions (more about a global economic advantage then, comparatively speaking)....and more about the family structure of white middle class Americans in the 1950s that was America (not that it was all good--it wasn't; I love Pleasantville FWIW.)

The biggest difference is we are trying to bring about the RESULTS from that era...high achievement levels putting us at, or near the front, of educational systems in the world...in a completely different set of circumstances. We expect the same result, when nearly all the variables have changed--many of them quite significantly. Diversity, special education, an expanded "pool" or "universe" of students, etc....factors that, given the challenges faced by many of those kids, drive down achievement and scores.

And we are soooooo intent on making sure we discourage competition, and we don't reward real achievement like we should....because it would make the "other" kids feel inferior, and hurt their self-esteem, that we dumb down the curriculum for everyone.

The changes have been good for kids who would have been previously left-out, or not served in the way....they should have been. However, it's lowered ambitions, expectations, and achievement for many of our best and brightest. Of course, some still strive for excellence on their own....and many well-to-do families can afford well funded private academies for their kids. It's the average American families with bright kids who've truly been the ones "left-behind" in such a system. They can't afford the prep schools, yet public schools have declined. And the we act surprised about when we discover we are "slipping." Sheesh.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 10:07 PM
I have found this entire discussion fascinating and very educational especially reading what Kotter, NewPhin and even you BEP have talked about.

But the reason why I am picking this quote out is because when we all went to school it was a much different time and families were alot different.
Well thank you. But times and families being different should not change the basic Rs or time-proven methods that have brought results.

All of us in this discussion went to school during the time of fads and experimentation as well as the breakdown of the family too. So yeah, but again it should not have any bearing on what gets results in a classroom. If a method works then it works no matter when it is used.

Most families sat down and ate dinner together, parents got involved in their kids schools, there was hardly any single parent families and kids didn't have all the distractions that they do today.
Ummm, no like I posted not in my family and I don't really know a lot of families that did that in my time either. School has been a place to keep children out from underfoot for a long awhile. My mom couldn't wait for summer to be over.

There was no Internet, Facebook, twitter, cell phones, texting or video games. Heck I hardly ever got to watch TV and had to be in bed by 8:00pm.
Well controlling these video game play and tv, at least, is up to parents if they know the effects it can have. However, there was still tv and video games in my time. I'd screw off in front of tv a lot but I was never chided for it either. But what age are you talking about? I went to bed by 9 PM even in high school on my own because just one day I decided I wanted to be a good student. That type of thing happens at different ages for probably for some never. I certainly didn't get it from my parents.

Some schools don't give out homework either ya' know. Kids get a study hall to do it too. My kid after grade 2 didn't have homework. She's on the internet, loves video games ( wants to be a game designer), texts, has a cell phone, Facebook etc and she is an honors student still. In fact at age 16 scored high on the CPT for dual enrollment including scoring high enough to do college honors classes. Also, the internet is making kids smarter. They can look just about anything up including words, get an oral on sounding a word out properly and see pictures or videos. I've used extensive You Tubes with her as well as other online sites. Not buyin' it. I think it's a cop out. It's a terrific learning tool.

So I think you have to concede that the family structure has changed so much that it has made teaching and kids learning a much harder job.

I disagree as I said earlier. I think it can be overcome and there are people who have overcome it. There's still no excuse for faddish methods that have unknown results and experimenting on a whole nation of kids.

Now how do you explain the drop out levels that happened before the 1950s where those same drop outs became successful businessmen? Families were intact then too.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 10:12 PM
I have found this entire discussion fascinating and very educational especially reading what Kotter, NewPhin and even you BEP have talked about.

But the reason why I am picking this quote out is because when we all went to school it was a much different time and families were alot different.
Well thank you. But times and families being different should not change the basic Rs or time-proven methods that have brought results.

All of us in this discussion went to school during the time of fads and experimentation as well as the breakdown of the family too. So yeah, but again it should not have any bearing on what gets results in a classroom. If a method works then it works no matter when it is used. See the Marva Collins video on the disadvantaged inner-city school kids that made it.

Most families sat down and ate dinner together, parents got involved in their kids schools, there was hardly any single parent families and kids didn't have all the distractions that they do today.
Ummm, no like I posted not in my family and I don't really know a lot of families that did that in my time either. School has been a place to keep children out from underfoot for a long while. My mom couldn't wait for summer to be over.

There was no Internet, Facebook, twitter, cell phones, texting or video games. Heck I hardly ever got to watch TV and had to be in bed by 8:00pm. [/quote]
Well controlling these things is up to parents if they know the effects it can have. However, there was still tv and video games in my time. I'd screw off in front of tv a lot but I was never chided for it either. But what age are you talking about? I went to bed by 9 PM even in high school on my own because just one day I decided I wanted to be a good student. That type of thing happens at different ages for probably for some never. I certainly didn't get it from my parents.

Some schools don't give out homework either ya' know. Kids get a study hall to do it too. My kind after grade 2 didn't have homework.

So I think you have to concede that the family structure has changed so much that it has made teaching and kids learning a much harder job.

I disagree as I said earlier. I think it can be overcome and there are people who have overcome it. There's still no excuse for faddish methods that have unknown results and experimenting on a whole nation of kids.

Now how do you explain the drop out levels that happened before the 1950s where those same drop outs became successful businessmen? Families were intact then too.

Sorry those are excuses. Not only has the family changed but so have schools.

BucEyedPea
02-04-2010, 10:14 PM
Heck I remember when the prinicipal used to spank students and was proud of his paddle weapon. Alot of them had nice big holes in them to be better aerodynamically and was displayed very prominently in his office.

I never saw that type of thing in my school. Just one kid getting their ear pulled.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 10:24 PM
BEP, another thing I think you are neglecting in this whole thing is...you and I overcame some pretty serious obstacles and challenges. However, not all people are as capable or resilient as you and I may have been.

Pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps philosophy of life and rugged-individualism are valuable assets, and if equipped they are much more effective and rewarding in terms of being able to lift oneself out of dire circumstances. It's much preferrable to looking to the government or seeking hand-outs. Everyone understands that. Bottom-line though, we were more blessed than a lot of folks.

As much as I, in reflecting on my childhood and upbringing, lament the neglect and am saddened by the opportunities my own family squandered--or never even knew, I'm deeply grateful that I was given an ambition, an intellect, and a work ethic that lifted me out of the quagmire that 95% of my childhood "friends" never emerged from. God has, indeed, been very good to me.

However, it's taken me 20-25 years to come to understand, not everyone was/is as blessed as I was....and, thus, I've developed a sympathy and compassion that, as a Reagan conservative during the 80s and 90s, I did not use to have.

Gracie Dean
02-04-2010, 10:29 PM
BEP

How about you come visit my room? I teach in my states Largest district. I have 32 students in one of my blocks. 10 of them have IEP's. One student comes once every other week, just enough to not have the truant office involved. My school has the highest Low SES in our district. Many of our students are illegal and most have one parent households. We also have a high number of "homeless" or multi-family living in one small apartment types.

They have huge obsticles to overcome.

petegz28
02-04-2010, 10:32 PM
Heck I remember when the prinicipal used to spank students and was proud of his paddle weapon. Alot of them had nice big holes in them to be better aerodynamically and was displayed very prominently in his office.

I got the paddle twice. Once for fighting and once for acting up in class. One paddle was fibreglass, the other was a thick wood ****er with about 10 holes in it. And this was back in the day where it was cool for guys to wear jeans a bit tighter than today (the early 80's).

In both cases it was either take the swats or teacher called Mom. The swats were painful yes, but I would have taken 10 times more for them not to call home. Back then, when the Teacher called home life as I knew it came to an end. There was no defense for myself. There was no acceptable excuse. I could get off easier if a Cop brought me home for doing something wrong than I could if the Teacher called.

dirk digler
02-04-2010, 10:33 PM
I never saw that type of thing in my school. Just one kid getting their ear pulled.

Really? How old are you again?

dirk digler
02-04-2010, 10:36 PM
I got the paddle twice. Once for fighting and once for acting up in class. One paddle was fibreglass, the other was a thick wood ****er with about 10 holes in it. And this was back in the day where it was cool for guys to wear jeans a bit tighter than today (the early 80's).

In both cases it was either take the swats or teacher called Mom. The swats were painful yes, but I would have taken 10 times more for them not to call home. Back then, when the Teacher called home life as I knew it came to an end. There was no defense for myself. There was no acceptable excuse. I could get off easier if a Cop brought me home for doing something wrong than I could if the Teacher called.

I never got the paddle but I cam close a couple of times. And I definitely know what you mean about calling parents. My mom would have grounded me for life if the prinicpal had to call her. My mom use to ground me for not making my bed or brushing my teeth and this wasn't no one day grounding it was for at least a week and I had to write 500 lines on notebook paper that I would remember to make my bed.

petegz28
02-04-2010, 10:46 PM
I never got the paddle but I cam close a couple of times. And I definitely know what you mean about calling parents. My mom would have grounded me for life if the prinicpal had to call her. My mom use to ground me for not making my bed or brushing my teeth and this wasn't no one day grounding it was for at least a week and I had to write 500 lines on notebook paper that I would remember to make my bed.

Dude, this is a true story, I shit you not. I swear on the graves of both of my Grandmother's. may they RIP.

At 12 years old I took my Mom's car out. A cop came up behind me as I was turning a corner, I turned my headback and of course the wheel with it and bam, over a bush, a stone landscaping wall and into a tree in someone's front yard. Ok, that was the only time my Step-Dad took the belt to me hind quarters, and deservedly so. I was ground from the phone, TV and going anywhere for 3 weeks. After the first week my Step-Dad started telling me I could watch TV on the sneak when him and my Mom would go out on the weekends.

Few years later, when I was 15, I got caught by the Cops sneaking out to meet some girls with a buddy of mine and on a school night. They brought me home at 3:00 a.m. Punishment? No phone, TV or going out for a week is what it ended up being.

Brought home an F here and there on my report cards over my school years. GROUNDED FOR A MONTH SOLID! No if's and's or but's. There was no reprieve. No plea bargaining. Nothing. Life just stopped.

patteeu
02-04-2010, 11:14 PM
In an ideal world, "failing" schools would be replaced. But, seriously, what is the alternative here? Think about it.

In the neighborhoods we are talking about, what is the likelihood of "private" schools or businesses (through charter schools) making any significant difference in these places? Seriously? Think about it.

The research and studies of most attempts to "replace" these schools....are mixed, at best. There are some success stories--but they are rare, and not sustained or a one-size-fits-all prescription for the unique circumstances of each school. At worse, the "replacement" schools, in the long run, aggrevate the chronic social problems in these neighborhoods. Yep, it's true; actually, it's more common than the success stories. Mostly though, it's just shuffling the deck of cards. Check the real research yourself if you don't believe me. It's very complicated and not at all pretty.

Why, you ask? Because the chronic problems of these neighborhoods are too often much deeper than "failing schools" and involve a variety of social and education obstacles that "private" alternatives do no better at "fixing" than the failing schools did: poverty, high crime rates, lack of parental support, child neglect and abuse, single-parent working poor families, latch key children with few after school opportunities, drugs, gangs, violence, lack of respect for education and academics in general, and many other factors that foster a climate of hopelessness and despair that's easy to dismiss from the outside, but an incredible challenge to overcome from that side of the fence.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try; we should. But we have, and we do. Everyday. Except that a whole lot of people who don't know the first thing about education or our public school system....pretend to know that they have all the solutions to the "problems" that schools face. Except that they aren't offereing anything that hasn't been tried before. And it hasn't worked, for the most part. The REAL answers to those questions are incredibly complex, politically unpopular, and quite costly. Of course, the quite costly part of it is why it ain't been fixed.

The biggest "fix" would be attracting many more QUALITY educators and administrators to do the job in those districts. Good luck with that....

That's a lot of words to say, "As a teacher, I think teachers should be paid more."

dirk digler
02-04-2010, 11:16 PM
Dude, this is a true story, I shit you not. I swear on the graves of both of my Grandmother's. may they RIP.

At 12 years old I took my Mom's car out. A cop came up behind me as I was turning a corner, I turned my headback and of course the wheel with it and bam, over a bush, a stone landscaping wall and into a tree in someone's front yard. Ok, that was the only time my Step-Dad took the belt to me hind quarters, and deservedly so. I was ground from the phone, TV and going anywhere for 3 weeks. After the first week my Step-Dad started telling me I could watch TV on the sneak when him and my Mom would go out on the weekends.

Few years later, when I was 15, I got caught by the Cops sneaking out to meet some girls with a buddy of mine and on a school night. They brought me home at 3:00 a.m. Punishment? No phone, TV or going out for a week is what it ended up being.

Brought home an F here and there on my report cards over my school years. GROUNDED FOR A MONTH SOLID! No if's and's or but's. There was no reprieve. No plea bargaining. Nothing. Life just stopped.

LMAO That is a good story pete.

stevieray
02-04-2010, 11:31 PM
SAT scores started dropping after prayer in school in was banned in 62.

Mr. Kotter
02-04-2010, 11:34 PM
That's a lot of words to say, "As a teacher, I think teachers should be paid more."

Patty, you haven't always been an asshole, ya know? :rolleyes:

I'm just sayin'....

As much as I'd like to see teachers paid commensurate with their responsibilities, their efforts, and yes....my friend, even our "performance" (so long as we can develop a truly FAIR mechanism for such evaluations)...this is not about pay, but about the number of teachers needed for such individualized instruction (and for attracting YOUNGER teachers to the profession, who are more representative of our best and brightest through whatever incentives we may need....and, yes, higher salaries for beginning teachers would be a decent start; but, would not necessarily mean across the board increases...so give me some credit, would ya?)

patteeu
02-05-2010, 12:07 AM
Patty, you haven't always been an asshole, ya know? :rolleyes:

I'm just sayin'....

As much as I'd like to see teachers paid commensurate with their responsibilities, their efforts, and yes....my friend, even our "performance" (so long as we can develop a truly FAIR mechanism for such evaluations)...this is not about pay, but about the number of teachers needed for such individualized instruction (and for attracting YOUNGER teachers to the profession, who are more representative of our best and brightest through whatever incentives we may need....and, yes, higher salaries for beginning teachers would be a decent start; but, would not necessarily mean across the board increases...so give me some credit, would ya?)

You can't tell me that this, capping off your very first post on this subject, wasn't really about teacher pay:

The biggest "fix" would be attracting many more QUALITY educators and administrators to do the job in those districts.

And then in post 21 you're complaining about how poverty-stricken some teachers are, as if they didn't have any choice but to go into that line of unforgiving work.

I didn't read the entire thread and I'm sure you've expressed plenty of good thoughts on the subject of education (which frankly bores me too much for me to read through it), but I don't think pointing out this bit of self-pity that seems common among teachers makes me an asshole.

Reaper16
02-05-2010, 12:57 AM
SAT scores started dropping after prayer in school in was banned in 62.
LMAO

Mr. Kotter
02-05-2010, 07:52 AM
You can't tell me that this, capping off your very first post on this subject, wasn't really about teacher pay:

And then in post 21 you're complaining about how poverty-stricken some teachers are, as if they didn't have any choice but to go into that line of unforgiving work.

I didn't read the entire thread and I'm sure you've expressed plenty of good thoughts on the subject of education (which frankly bores me too much for me to read through it), but I don't think pointing out this bit of self-pity that seems common among teachers makes me an asshole.

You qualify as an asshole, of late, on more than this one account.

My primary beef with teacher pay is....the effect of discouraging many of our best and brightest from even considering the profession at all. I mean, honestly, when lower and mid-level retail management at Walmart or HyVee is more attractive...it says something about the priorities of our society.

And, frankly, your "boredom" with the topic, while typical, is symptomatic of the real problem with education reform in this country--that even educated folks can't be bothered with paying attention to the single biggest thing we can do, long term, to restore us to our glory days of the not-so-distant past. Yet, we can't be "bothered."

NewChief
02-05-2010, 07:53 AM
SAT scores started dropping after prayer in school in was banned in 62.

God loves standardized testing?

KC Dan
02-05-2010, 09:58 AM
SAT scores started dropping after prayer in school in was banned in 62.
Can't get on board with this one....no correlation whatsoever

Mr. Kotter
02-05-2010, 10:00 AM
SAT scores started dropping after prayer in school in was banned in 62.

Cultural trends and supreme court decisions are not mutually exclusive.

However, which is the cause and which the effect? Tough to say... :shrug:

Brock
02-05-2010, 10:06 AM
Oh I bet you love Brock's responsibility as blame it all on the parents or blame it all on the public. Imagine if a private provider had that attitude where they'd be? Out-of-business.

I said nothing about individualizing education in this thread. You on the other hand are full of excuses— and apathy.

It is the parent's fault. Period. Take responsibility for what your kid is doing.

Mr. Kotter
02-05-2010, 10:14 AM
It is the parent's fault. Period. Take responsibility for what your kid is doing.

I agree, mostly. Unfortunately, over the years though I've had plenty of kids where the parents seemed to do everything right....and the kid simply refused to learn, or were intellectuallly just not up to the task.

Brock
02-05-2010, 10:29 AM
I agree, mostly. Unfortunately, over the years though I've had plenty of kids where the parents seemed to do everything right....and the kid simply refused to learn, or were intellectuallly just not up to the task.

Seeming to do everything right isn't doing everything right. If a kid is refusing to do something, it's the parents job to make him or her do it. If he's not up to the task, it's up to them to seek alternative remedies. The teacher's job is to present the material, take it or leave it, and grade accordingly.

Mr. Kotter
02-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Seeming to do everything right isn't doing everything right. If a kid is refusing to do something, it's the parents job to make him or her do it. If he's not up to the task, it's up to them to seek alternative remedies. The teacher's job is to present the material, take it or leave it, and grade accordingly.

In elementary school settings, I agree parents shoulder the vast majority of that burden. However, in middle school and especially high school....at some point it becomes much more a case of individual responsibility. You can lead or horse to water, but you can't MAKE them drink....regardless of the alternative remedies that may be available.

As educators and parents though, there are certainly things that we can do to encourage and compel most kids toward taking their education seriously. Professionally and as a parent, of course we should do whatever we can to help.

patteeu
02-05-2010, 12:25 PM
You qualify as an asshole, of late, on more than this one account.

My primary beef with teacher pay is....the effect of discouraging many of our best and brightest from even considering the profession at all. I mean, honestly, when lower and mid-level retail management at Walmart or HyVee is more attractive...it says something about the priorities of our society.

And, frankly, your "boredom" with the topic, while typical, is symptomatic of the real problem with education reform in this country--that even educated folks can't be bothered with paying attention to the single biggest thing we can do, long term, to restore us to our glory days of the not-so-distant past. Yet, we can't be "bothered."

I think another symptom of the real problem is the prevalence among education professionals of the belief that funding needs to constantly be increased to pay education professionals higher salaries.

Do you think that if the job payed more, your school would have found a better teacher to teach your classes than you?

Mr. Kotter
02-05-2010, 01:11 PM
I think another symptom of the real problem is the prevalence among education professionals of the belief that funding needs to constantly be increased to pay education professionals higher salaries.

Do you think that if the job payed more, your school would have found a better teacher to teach your classes than you?

I do not say that funding needs to be increased--only that teacher pay, especially entry level pay, needs to be more attractive to entice better qualified people. Personally, I'd settle for a restructuring of priorities, namely funds that are currently spent on things that, truthfully, are not essential to our primary mission of educating children. There are lots of programs, activities, and costly expenditures that schools do that are popular with the administrators and the public, but divert limited resources from classrooms. The trade-off results in less effective public schools.

As for your question, possibly; but it's hard to know. What I do know is that there are a whole lot of our best and brightest who never even consider the profession--due primarily to low salaries and compensation. As parents (my wife teaches also,) we have decided that unless the direction of education changes, we will STRONGLY discourage our own kids from following in our footsteps. That's unfortunate, because at least two of our four kids have abilitity, demeanor, and characteristics that could make them exceptional educators.

The bottom-line is, based on experience, we understand that the tremendous rewards of teaching no longer make-up for the sacrifice. In the current climate of hostility, disrespect, and societal dysfunction, the personal sacrifces involved in teaching outweigh the sense of fulfillment and reward that have always made education something of a calling--rather than just another career. In the end, society will be worse off because of that.

NewChief
02-05-2010, 01:17 PM
The bottom-line is, based on experience, we understand that the tremendous rewards of teaching no longer make-up for the sacrifice. In the current climate of hostility, disrespect, and societal dysfunction, the personal sacrifces involved in teaching outweigh the sense of fulfillment and reward that have always made education something of a calling--rather than just another career. In the end, society will be worse off because of that.

Pretty much the only place I feel disrespected as a teacher is on Chiefsplanet. Most people, in real life, at least pretend to respect and admire the teaching profession.

Mr. Kotter
02-05-2010, 01:39 PM
Pretty much the only place I feel disrespected as a teacher is on Chiefsplanet. Most people, in real life, at least pretend to respect and admire the teaching profession.

In real life, personally, I agree.

Where I see the hostility and disrespect is...on editorial pages, out of the mouth of too many politicians, and in the actions of school boards, city councils, and state legislatures that issue mandates for us for particular programs, and add to the responsibilities of teachers while at the same time refusing to adequately fund the very things they are demanding.

I'm fine with schools performing many of the roles the public has demanded of us, but then they have to fund those new programs and functions. You can't order steak and lobster from a restaurant, and then expect to only pay for the chopped steak special...and yet it happens all the time. Either fund what you demand, or just resolve yourself to the mediocrity for which you have paid.

ClevelandBronco
02-05-2010, 04:32 PM
Pretty much the only place I feel disrespected as a teacher is on Chiefsplanet. Most people, in real life, at least pretend to respect and admire the teaching profession.

I know what you mean. In real life I pretend to respect them. I can't say I've ever pretended to admire them. Not that I can recall anyway.

dirk digler
02-05-2010, 04:50 PM
I do find it interesting that pat doesn't think it is ok to reform health care because it would lower doctor's pay and discourage people from becoming doctors but he finds it acceptable that teachers make low pay and could care less that they are losing alot of people because of it.

It seems to me we need both good well payed doctors and good well paid teachers. We also need good well payed policeman and fireman too.

ClevelandBronco
02-05-2010, 04:57 PM
I do find it interesting that pat doesn't think it is ok to reform health care because it would lower doctor's pay and discourage people from becoming doctors but he finds it acceptable that teachers make low pay and could care less that they are losing alot of people because of it.

It seems to me we need both good well payed doctors and good well paid teachers. We also need good well payed policeman and fireman too.

And it's interesting to me that some here bitch about government sticking its nose into education rather than leaving it up to the so-called professionals when they're just fine with government sticking its nose even deeper into a real profession: Practicing medicine.

patteeu
02-05-2010, 05:13 PM
I do find it interesting that pat doesn't think it is ok to reform health care because it would lower doctor's pay and discourage people from becoming doctors but he finds it acceptable that teachers make low pay and could care less that they are losing alot of people because of it.

It seems to me we need both good well payed doctors and good well paid teachers. We also need good well payed policeman and fireman too.

I'm in favor of less government involvement in both and after that I'm in favor of letting the salary chips fall where they may.

I know a lot of good home schoolers who don't get paid to teach, but I doubt if home surgeons would be as successful.

BucEyedPea
02-05-2010, 05:22 PM
And it's interesting to me that some here bitch about government sticking its nose into education rather than leaving it up to the so-called professionals when they're just fine with government sticking its nose even deeper into a real profession: Practicing medicine.

The education example is an appeal to authority. Even when the authority has little to boast about in results just for functional literacy.
They can just blame the parents who don't do the teaching. :spock:

Mr. Kotter
02-06-2010, 04:13 PM
And it's interesting to me that some here bitch about government sticking its nose into education rather than leaving it up to the so-called professionals when they're just fine with government sticking its nose even deeper into a real profession: Practicing medicine.

You are barking up the wrong tree, if you think that's my position. NCLB is far from perfect, but I do agree with the intentions and accountability of the legislation; the problems lie in implementation, and the sole reliance on high stakes standardized testing that does not evaluate what they purport to evaluate, as presently administered.

If NCLB is good enough for education, then NPLB (No Patient Left Behind?) should not bring nearly the anguished demagoguery and histrionics that accompany any REAL attempt to rein in an industry that is much more "out of control" than most public schooling in this country.

The education example is an appeal to authority. Even when the authority has little to boast about in results just for functional literacy.
They can just blame the parents who don't do the teaching. :spock:

So, BEP....you live in a world where teachers have more to do with the success of failure of your kid than you do. Wow. I don't even know where to begin with that one...

:shake:

Baby Lee
02-06-2010, 04:19 PM
Yet, here you are leading a charge for Dom Perion on a Pabst Blue Ribbon budget. Isn't that ironic?
Ironic would be this line in a literacy rant.

Mr. Kotter
02-06-2010, 04:21 PM
Ironic would be this line in a literacy rant.

R U the new internet discussion board grammar/spelling/composition Nazi? :spock:

If so, I missed the memo....

Baby Lee
02-06-2010, 04:32 PM
R U the new internet discussion board grammar/spelling/composition Nazi? :spock:

If so, I missed the memo....

No, just my age old gig as resident irony observer.

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 04:36 PM
So, BEP....you live in a world where teachers have more to do with the success of failure of your kid than you do. Wow. I don't even know where to begin with that one...

I give much credit to the teachers she's had for ten years, more than myself because I couldn't do it. ( particularly math and science). Then, I credit myself for making the right choice of school after investigating many both private and public. So it's both. I did hardly any homework with it. It was just first grade word cards and her science fair.

If I feel parents share any blame at all is that they have their heads in the sand putting their kids in a public school in the first place. I used to belong to a group that encouraged removing their children from public school.

But that's not what I meant by that statement. I was referring to the argument I couldn't comment because I wasn't an expert on teaching.

Mr. Kotter
02-06-2010, 04:43 PM
No, just my age old gig as resident irony observer.

Literacy aside, temporarily....BEP's insistance on whistles, bells, and funding for education in the face of her government can't do anything right positions, is quite ironic IMHO.

:)

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 04:49 PM
Literacy aside, temporarily....BEP's insistance on whistles, bells, and funding for education in the face of her government can't do anything right positions, is quite ironic IMHO.

:)

Mostly anything right. It's the nature of the beast. I did say schools did a better job of literacy at one point in time. So give me some credit. Govt is also good at starting wars too. People don't start wars.

"...government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem". — Ronald Reagan*

"Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else?" — Ronald Reagan



* and yes those were the words in RR's first inaugural despite some saying they were never used.

patteeu
02-06-2010, 07:47 PM
Mostly anything right. It's the nature of the beast. I did say schools did a better job of literacy at one point in time. So give me some credit. Govt is also good at starting wars too. People don't start wars.

"...government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem". — Ronald Reagan*

"Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else?" — Ronald Reagan



* and yes those were the words in RR's first inaugural despite some saying they were never used.

That quote's wrong according to Yale's Avalon project (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/reagan1.asp), but it's not as egregiously wrong as the fabricated quote that Ron Paul attributed to Reagan's autobiography and that you've cited something like 18 different times here at ChiefsPlanet. In this case, you've just replaced the word "But" with "Well".

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 07:58 PM
That quote's wrong according to Yale's Avalon project (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/reagan1.asp), but it's not as egregiously wrong as the fabricated quote that Ron Paul attributed to Reagan's autobiography and that you've cited something like 18 different times here at ChiefsPlanet. In this case, you've just replaced the word "But" with "Well".
Heh! Heh! LMAO I chose it to trap you because I knew you'd do that again. ROFL You took the bait. You didn't do your homework, did you? Yale is wrong. Epic FAIL for spinning again.

Wiki* cites Yale on making that claim, which turns out to be false. Further they provide a link to the YouTube on RR's Inaugural and time on it. 6:08 He begins with "In present crisis" but it's the same type of crisis now as then. I knew that was there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IleiqUDYpFQ

OTT, you've not yet proven the other quote wrong yet since you never posted the missing passages. More spin....and I checked the library today to see if the book was in.

* I recalled the quote from memory from seeing it on a quote site. Wiki came up when I typed it into google to check the wording.

Owned!

patteeu
02-06-2010, 08:10 PM
Heh! Heh! LMAO I chose it to trap you because I knew you'd do that again. ROFL You took the bait. You didn't do your homework, did you? Yale is wrong. Epic FAIL for spinning again.

Wiki* cites Yale on making that claim, which turns out to be false. Further they provide a link to the YouTube on RR's Inaugural and time on it. 6:08 He begins with "In present crisis" but it's the same type of crisis now as then. I knew that was there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IleiqUDYpFQ

OTT, you've not yet proven the other quote wrong yet since you never posted the missing passages. More spin....and I checked the library today to see if the book was in.

* I recalled the quote from memory from seeing it on a quote site. Wiki came up when I typed it into google to check the wording.

Owned!

Ha ha. You're like Wile E. Coyote trying to set a trap for the Roadrunner. I'm talking about the other quote and your youtube confirms I'm right (at time=6:39).

Beep, beep!

http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Charles/wile-e-coyote-gravity.jpg

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 08:23 PM
I told you I don't read your posts....only glance at them. But that second quote was part of the whole paragraph on wiki too.
At least I don't believe flat out lies about WMD and mushroom clouds. That's much worse....getting Americans killed from that.

patteeu
02-06-2010, 08:32 PM
I told you I don't read your posts....only glance at them. But that second quote was part of the whole paragraph on wiki too.
At least I don't believe flat out lies about WMD and mushroom clouds. That's much worse....getting Americans killed from that.

:thumb:

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 08:33 PM
That quote's wrong according to Yale's Avalon project (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/reagan1.asp), but it's not as egregiously wrong as the fabricated quote that Ron Paul attributed to Reagan's autobiography and that you've cited something like 18 different times here at ChiefsPlanet. In this case, you've just replaced the word "But" with "Well".

Okay I checked that out now too. Same video link I gave you before. It IS there. I just heard it. 6:39. Delusion pure delusion.


"Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else?" — Ronald Reagan


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IleiqUDYpFQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IleiqUDYpFQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 08:37 PM
BTW Paul did not fabricate any quote...that's quite a lot different than a claim of out-of-context. As well as being a serious charge of whole sale lying by a man of goodwill and integrity.
You're accusing him of what you're doing now. Me thinks you doth protest too much.

Anyhow back to what I wanted to say about delusional disorder:

•The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
•That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
• There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
•The delusions are logically constructed and internally consistent.
•The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged.

patteeu
02-06-2010, 08:41 PM
Okay I checked that out now too. Same video link I gave you before. It IS there. I just heard it. 6:39. Delusion pure delusion.


:spock: He says "but". You said he says "well". It's really not that big of a deal, but it's amazing that you can't even admit such a tiny error. Are you insane?

patteeu
02-06-2010, 08:42 PM
BTW Paul did not fabricate any quote...that's quite a lot different than a claim of out-of-context. As well as being a serious charge of whole sale lying by a man of goodwill and integrity.
You're accusing him of what you're doing now. Me thinks you doth protest too much.

He fabricated it. That's what you call it when you make something up out of thin air. He included some out of context snippets in for flavor, but the last two sentences (which were the meat of the quote for the purposes he was using it) WERE MADE UP. FABRICATED.

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 08:43 PM
No it's because it's petty and insignifcant. You either have nothing to do are stalking me from thread to thread on some mission, like a vendetta.

BucEyedPea
02-06-2010, 08:44 PM
Did you say something again?
Looking for a fight again pat? The last word?

Brock
02-06-2010, 10:03 PM
fakenore ftw

ClevelandBronco
02-06-2010, 11:33 PM
Did you say something again?

Really, BEP. That "Did you say something?" shit is the most childish crap I've ever seen in any discussion, online or not.

If you can make your point, make it. If you can't or don't want to, just let it go.

Mr. Kotter
02-06-2010, 11:50 PM
Really, BEP. That "Did you say something?" shit is the most childish crap I've ever seen in any discussion, online or not.

If you can make your point, make it. If you can't or don't want to, just let it go.

You know, BEP and I ain't exactly "allies" here...so hopefully this will be cause for pause, unless you are bought and sold with ideology, propaganda, and demagoguery too....

patty deserves whatever he gets; you get what you sow. And he's sowed shit...of late. Unless you're a dittohead, Hannityfan, or Beckman....of course.

ClevelandBronco
02-06-2010, 11:53 PM
You know, BEP and I ain't exactly "allies" here...so hopefully this will be cause for pause, unless you are bought and sold with ideology, propaganda, and demagoguery too....

patty deserves whatever he gets; you get what you sow. And he's sowed shit...of late. Unless you're a dittohead, Hannityfan, or Beckman....of course.

Did he make an ass of you again?

Mr. Kotter
02-07-2010, 12:04 AM
Did he make an ass of you again?

Only if you let rightwing radio/blowhards do your thinkin' for you....

You really ought to be more discreet, with your suckin' off patty; it ain't "manly," ya know...

Then again, some miss UP...you tryin' to fill a void? :hmmm:

ClevelandBronco
02-07-2010, 12:08 AM
Keep your void to yourself.

Mr. Kotter
02-07-2010, 12:11 AM
Keep your void to yourself.

I'll delete these posts for you....

your secret will be safe with me, man. It's the 21st Century afterall, dude. Heh.

Mr. Kotter
02-07-2010, 12:12 AM
wha....t....

th...e....hec....kkkk????

my 'puter seems to be messin' wit me, CB....I sure hope I can delete the pertinent posts....

Daann...nng...it.... :doh!:

patteeu
02-07-2010, 08:16 AM
You know, BEP and I ain't exactly "allies" here...so hopefully this will be cause for pause, unless you are bought and sold with ideology, propaganda, and demagoguery too....

patty deserves whatever he gets; you get what you sow. And he's sowed shit...of late. Unless you're a dittohead, Hannityfan, or Beckman....of course.

The only thing I can think of that I'm "getting" is under the skin of both you and BEP. Is that what you're saying I deserve?

You and BEP might not be allies, but one thing you have in common is that you frequently don't know how ridiculous the things you say are. I'm just trying to help fix that. I point these things out for other people too, but they don't whine about it as much.

Mr. Kotter
02-07-2010, 12:58 PM
The only thing I can think of that I'm "getting" is under the skin of both you and BEP. Is that what you're saying I deserve?

You and BEP might not be allies, but one thing you have in common is that you frequently don't know how ridiculous the things you say are. I'm just trying to help fix that. I point these things out for other people too, but they don't whine about it as much.

It's a common affliction, but you hold much too high of an opinion of yourself.

Enjoy the Superbowl, patty.