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View Full Version : Electronics 52" Sony Bravia 1080P LCD - $1000


Lzen
02-05-2010, 07:24 AM
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=4497835&sku=S190-5222

Otter
02-05-2010, 07:35 AM
Wow, that's pretty tempting. Everything I've read about that TV has been rock solid.

OnTheWarpath58
02-05-2010, 08:49 AM
Pass.

60 Hz refresh rate.

JMO.

tymania
02-05-2010, 08:54 AM
Pass.

60 Hz refresh rate.

JMO.

sorry if this a dumb question.. but what exactly is the difference between the different refresh rates? is it that big of a difference?

Otter
02-05-2010, 09:25 AM
sorry if this a dumb question.. but what exactly is the difference between the different refresh rates? is it that big of a difference?

We field a lot of questions about HDTVs here at CNET, and not surprisingly, one of the more prevalent ones these days is whether or not it's worth spending the extra dough on a new flat-panel LCD TV that features a 120Hz refresh rate. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, a 120Hz LCD TV is one that refreshes motion picture images at twice the speed of "standard" 60Hz models. What's the benefit of that? Well, the knock against LCD TVs--which doesn't apply to plasma or rear-projection HDTVs--has been that their slower refresh rates and response times leave them susceptible to motion blur with fast-motion content. To combat this perception, LCD manufacturers are pushing 120Hz--it's the hot spec of the moment, the 1080p of 2007. The question is, how much of difference does it make?

In hopes of answering that question, I sat down with Senior Editor David Katzmaier and Associate Editor Matthew Moskovciak in our TV lab, where we have several 120Hz TVs on hand, namely the JVC LT-47X898, the Mitsubishi LT-46144, and the Sony KDL-46XBR4. Here are our shared conclusions.

1. 120Hz on its own doesn't appear to significantly reduce motion blur. This may seem like a bold statement right out of the starting gate, but I can tell you only what I saw. We watched a non-120HZ LCD TV, JVC's LT-47X788, next to those three 120Hz TVs, as well as three plasmas: Pioneer's PDP-5080HD and PRO-FHD1, along with Samsung's FP-T5084. Watching the same HD source material on every TV (it included recorded footage of a Saints-Colts football game and a U.S. Open quarterfinal tennis match), neither I--nor my compatriots--saw anything that made us feel 120Hz was making a real difference. Yes, when you run a fast-moving score ticker on the bottom of the screen, the letters and numbers appear slightly sharper (no blurring around the edges), but it's just not a big deal. The fact is, we haven't had a motion-blur problem with any of the newer 60Hz LCD TVs we've reviewed in recent times. Don't get me wrong--we did see a lot of what you might call blurring in faster-motion scenes, but it was always inherent in the source, so it looked basically the same on all of the TVs, including the plasmas.

TalkBack
Is 120Hz a game-changer or is it overrated?
Post your comment here
2. Motion blur is a fuzzy concept. OK, this where it gets more complicated. Typically, manufacturers are coupling 120Hz with a video-processing feature that is designed to eliminate judder in film-based (24 frame-per-second) material. This is often referred to as a "smoothing" feature, and companies have come up with different marketing-friendly names for it. Sony calls it Motion Flow, Samsung's is dubbed Movie Plus, Sharp's is TrueD, and Toshiba's is Film Stabilization, and some work better than others. Even some plasmas, such as the Pioneer PDP-5080HD, offer this type of smoothing feature, though we didn't think it was implemented as well in that model as in the LCDs (it introduced major artifacts). To be clear, motion blur and judder are two different beasts. However, they seem to be getting lumped together because both involve the clarity and stability of the image. Mitsubishi, for example, calls its 120Hz processing "Smooth 120Hz," even though the company's LCDs, such as the LT-46144, do not incorporate anti-judder processing.

The Sony KDL-46XBR's Motion Flow anti-judder feature is one of the best we've seen to date.
The Sony KDL-46XBR's Motion Flow anti-judder feature is one of the best we've seen to date.

3. Anti-judder can have a major impact on picture quality. The smoother is designed to eliminate judder in film-based content, which is most noticeable in scenes that incorporate slow camera pans or in scenes shot with a handheld camera. We mainly looked at the effects of engaging the Sony's anti-judder, which has two settings: standard and high. Even at the lower setting (standard), the difference in the picture was immediately apparent. The image just looks more stable. Kick it up to high and everything becomes rock solid--it's night and day. However, the high setting tends to introduce artifacts into the picture. These look like a little tear or glitch in the picture. They appear for just a fraction of second, but they are noticeable. It's worth noting that the picture on the standard setting sometimes looks unnatural, too, particularly when the anti-judder suddenly kicks in during a fast pan and stabilizes objects moving across the screen.

4. Eliminating judder is not for everyone. Judder is part of what makes film look like film, so when you remove it, it starts to look like video. Now, some folks like the look of video and contend that it looks more true-to-life. Both Matthew Moskovciak and I are judder-free fans. On the other hand, David Katzmaier likes the effect only in certain scenes--he generally prefers to leave it turned off during Hollywood films and turned on for some other film-based content, such as the nature documentary Planet Earth--because, in some instances, it can really alter a scene, or at least take away from what the director intended the scene to look like. This is called "director's intent," and movie purists would argue that anti-judder tarnishes the viewing experience much in the same way that performance-enhancing drugs might change the outcome of a sporting event. OK, maybe that's a stretch, but I couldn't help myself.

5. If you're a fan of anti-judder, it's hard to live without. Moscovciak says he now has a hard time watching movies with judder; he finds it excruciatingly irritating. I personally don't feel quite that strongly, but I kept asking Katzmaier to crank the Sony's Motion Flow setting to "high." I was willing to live with the artifacts in exchange for that rock-solid image. (Katzmaier strongly disagrees.) I'm quickly becoming an anti-judder junkie.

6. Smoothing will only get smoother. As I said, some smoothers are better than others. But remember, this is a relatively new technology, and most of these companies are taking their first cracks at these special video-processing modes. Sony's Motion Flow and others will get better with time, and chances are you'll see you'll see fewer--or hopefully, no--artifacts in future televisions when the anti-judder mode is engaged. For the record, we've tested only three HDTVs with anti-judder technology so far: the Sony, the Pioneer 5080HD, and the Toshiba 52LX177, but we'll check out more as soon as we can get our hands on them.

So, is it worth paying extra for a 120Hz model now? If you can afford it, I'd say go for it, so long as you get a model that does anti-judder well--and offers good picture quality based on the fundamentals: decent black levels, color saturation, color accuracy, and resolution. Ultimately, reducing judder, not motion blur, is the real game-changer here. Get a demo yourself. Maybe you'll see what I mean.

Is 120Hz a game-changer or is it overrated? Click the TalkBack button to get your two cents in.

Buck
02-05-2010, 09:29 AM
The 46" of this TV is only $779 too.

gblowfish
02-05-2010, 09:31 AM
I just bought the Samsung 32' LCD 120hz for around $650, and have 18 months no interest. Actually got a pretty decent deal from my local Best Buy.

Buck
02-05-2010, 09:34 AM
I just bought the Samsung 32' LCD 120hz for around $650, and have 18 months no interest. Actually got a pretty decent deal from my local Best Buy.

32'?

Thats fucking huge.

OnTheWarpath58
02-05-2010, 09:34 AM
sorry if this a dumb question.. but what exactly is the difference between the different refresh rates? is it that big of a difference?

Otter's link sums it up decently.

Personally, I watch a lot of hockey, and it looks like crap to me on a 60 Hz.

Again, JMO. What you think is acceptable may be, and probably is different that what I think.

Crashride
02-05-2010, 09:35 AM
The 46" of this TV is only $779 too.

This is what I have and I love it, so at few more inches would make it a great buy for 1000. I personally cant stand "true motion" and all of its forms. I like the movie to look like a movie and not like im there during the filming.

memyselfI
02-06-2010, 06:05 PM
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=4497835&sku=S190-5222

We had this TV for a week before we decided to punt it. It has a very good picture in HD but not everything is in HD and the SD picture was AWFUL. Not only that we had 'Copy Protection' errors using HDMI. My parents have the 46" and they have the same problems.

We ended up getting a 54" Panasonic plasma G10. It is amazing. The only thing wrong is it isn't 60 or 65".

memyselfI
02-06-2010, 06:09 PM
If you do buy this from Tiger Direct you might try getting Bing cash back. I picked up an Onkyo receiver a couple of weeks ago with 15% cash back.

BigMeatballDave
02-06-2010, 06:26 PM
Not only that we had 'Copy Protection' errors using HDMI. My parents have the 46" and they have the same problems.

Copy Protection? What do you mean?

Bowser
02-06-2010, 06:29 PM
I have had this exact TV for a year plus. Love it.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-06-2010, 06:29 PM
If a Sony XBR8 is a Lexus, that TV is a Toyota Tercel.

WhitiE
02-06-2010, 06:29 PM
when it breaks no one is going to be able to fix it because their are going to be no parts available. but if you plan on using it until it breaks and then throwing it away then go for it

memyselfI
02-06-2010, 06:40 PM
when it breaks no one is going to be able to fix it because their are going to be no parts available. but if you plan on using it until it breaks and then throwing it away then go for it

Are you talking about the Sony?

memyselfI
02-06-2010, 06:41 PM
Copy Protection? What do you mean?

An error that said:

"Copy Protection, The DVI/HDMI output is blocked, Press EXIT to Cancel."

BigMeatballDave
02-06-2010, 06:45 PM
An error that said:

"Copy Protection, The DVI/HDMI output is blocked, Press EXIT to Cancel."Weird. Never got that on mine.

WhitiE
02-06-2010, 06:58 PM
Are you talking about the Sony?

indeed

memyselfI
02-06-2010, 08:49 PM
Weird. Never got that on mine.

Got them on two different Sonys at two different residences using the two of the same model cable box.

Simply Red
02-06-2010, 08:56 PM
i have a 720 Bravia 32" in the bedroom, it's aight.

Chocolate Hog
02-06-2010, 09:00 PM
The 46" of this TV is only $779 too.

I'll be being one in August.

Chocolate Hog
02-06-2010, 09:04 PM
46 inch will be big enough for football games right?

Simply Red
02-06-2010, 09:11 PM
46 inch will be big enough for football games right?

that's cool, got any porno tapes?

BigMeatballDave
02-06-2010, 11:25 PM
Got them on two different Sonys at two different residences using the two of the same model cable box.Ah, that may be your problem there. I have Directv. Basically cuz cable sux.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-07-2010, 01:48 AM
Sports could look choppy w/ the 60Hz refresh rate if the video scalar isn't high quality in that set, FWIW.

Chocolate Hog
02-07-2010, 02:30 AM
Yea my friend said get a 120 for sports.

memyselfI
02-07-2010, 07:07 AM
Ah, that may be your problem there. I have Directv. Basically cuz cable sux.

True dat but so does that line of TVs.

memyselfI
02-07-2010, 08:29 AM
Yea my friend said get a 120 for sports.

If sports are your main concern then get a plasma at 600 mhz or at least a LCD/LED at 240.

Chocolate Hog
02-08-2010, 01:20 AM
If sports are your main concern then get a plasma at 600 mhz or at least a LCD/LED at 240.

Yea sports is but also price. How much does that cost?

Crashride
02-08-2010, 07:31 AM
Im suprised people are still pushing plasma. Didnt they stop making them?

WhitiE
02-08-2010, 07:37 AM
Im suprised people are still pushing plasma. Didnt they stop making them?

a few brands have, but thats just because they dont make their own panels so their forced to buy them from samsung and LG. so that drives their price up so they sell less....

memyselfI
02-08-2010, 08:21 AM
Yea sports is but also price. How much does that cost?

Check Google and you will see that dollar for dollar plasma is a better bargain right now for a tv over 48". I did at TON of research before we stepped foot into the store. When we did it was a matter of finding the best tv we could for the price we were willing to pay. We ended up paying a couple hundred more than we had planned because we found a deal on one of the top rated TVs for about the same as most other brands entry level tvs.

We bought our highly rated Panasonic for $1299 at Nebraska Furniture Mart. That is about 300 less than any price I've seen and 700 less than what it was selling for six months ago. The TV was introduced in May. As I said before, we originally had the Sony LCD but for the price it was not a crisp enough picture. We were coming from a gorgeous Panasonic CRT which had just about the best picture of any TV I had ever seen.

Consumer Reports, CNET, AVS forum are all great places to check regarding what you should be looking for and what price to expect. I recommend buying the absolute biggest and best quality (not necessarily cheapest price) you can afford for your space. Once you get it home and fall in love with it you will wish it were bigger. We thought 54" would be big enough but now we are spoiled and could easily purchase the TV in 58 or 60 if our budget could handle it. Luckily, Panasonic does not make the G10 bigger than 54".

As far as plasmas going away. Nope, they are made by fewer manufacturers but those manufacturers are the ones who were successful in making them. If anything it's the LCD's that are about to be extinct. LEDs are already lined up to replace them. Thus, LCDs should be dropping in price as the LEDs prices start to fall.

It's really a matter of personal preference. We were afraid to buy a plasma because of all the bad press but then we realized they were a better deal for us at this time and so we took the plunge.

kepp
02-08-2010, 10:46 AM
Im suprised people are still pushing plasma. Didnt they stop making them?

Judging on price/performance, I'd buy plasma hands-down. When they make an affordable LCD whose picture looks as good as my plasma, I'll consider switching.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-08-2010, 12:27 PM
If sports are your main concern then get a plasma at 600 mhz or at least a LCD/LED at 240.

240 hz processing has no appreciable benefit over 120 hz. I say that as an owner of a TV w/ 240 hz processing.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-08-2010, 12:28 PM
Judging on price/performance, I'd buy plasma hands-down. When they make an affordable LCD whose picture looks as good as my plasma, I'll consider switching.

The only plasmas that can compete with top LCDs right now are Panasonic G and V series TVs.

They don't make Kuros any more, and the other brands are a cut below.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-08-2010, 12:31 PM
Check Google and you will see that dollar for dollar plasma is a better bargain right now for a tv over 48". I did at TON of research before we stepped foot into the store. When we did it was a matter of finding the best tv we could for the price we were willing to pay. We ended up paying a couple hundred more than we had planned because we found a deal on one of the top rated TVs for about the same as most other brands entry level tvs.

We bought our highly rated Panasonic for $1299 at Nebraska Furniture Mart. That is about 300 less than any price I've seen and 700 less than what it was selling for six months ago. The TV was introduced in May. As I said before, we originally had the Sony LCD but for the price it was not a crisp enough picture. We were coming from a gorgeous Panasonic CRT which had just about the best picture of any TV I had ever seen.

Consumer Reports, CNET, AVS forum are all great places to check regarding what you should be looking for and what price to expect. I recommend buying the absolute biggest and best quality (not necessarily cheapest price) you can afford for your space. Once you get it home and fall in love with it you will wish it were bigger. We thought 54" would be big enough but now we are spoiled and could easily purchase the TV in 58 or 60 if our budget could handle it. Luckily, Panasonic does not make the G10 bigger than 54".

As far as plasmas going away. Nope, they are made by fewer manufacturers but those manufacturers are the ones who were successful in making them. If anything it's the LCD's that are about to be extinct. LEDs are already lined up to replace them. Thus, LCDs should be dropping in price as the LEDs prices start to fall.

It's really a matter of personal preference. We were afraid to buy a plasma because of all the bad press but then we realized they were a better deal for us at this time and so we took the plunge.

This is a really dumb fucking post

1) LCDs and LEDs are synonymous. LED is simply a lighting system, replacing the CCFL lamp with several smaller LEDs.

2) Plasma is an ever shrinking market. It's already becoming a niche product.

Chocolate Hog
02-09-2010, 12:00 AM
i'm a college student fellas I don't have 1,200 to spend. More like 700 or 800 at the most.

Miles
02-09-2010, 05:27 AM
If a Sony XBR8 is a Lexus, that TV is a Toyota Tercel.

The XBR8 is still probably the best set I have seen. Too bad that the RGB LED backlighting doesn't really seem to be something that will arrive at a more reasonable price any time soon.

Miles
02-09-2010, 05:31 AM
Sports could look choppy w/ the 60Hz refresh rate if the video scalar isn't high quality in that set, FWIW.

I really don't notice anything at all on my 60hz set when watching sports but I think the scalar is probably solid enough.

Tango&Cash
02-09-2010, 10:10 AM
that's cool, got any porno tapes?

tapes? This is 2010, Blu Ray my friend. Porn in HD!!!!

kepp
02-09-2010, 11:01 AM
The only plasmas that can compete with top LCDs right now are Panasonic G and V series TVs.

Thus my "affordable" stiplulation.

memyselfI
02-09-2010, 11:11 AM
Thus my "affordable" stiplulation.

What do you define as affordable. I know it's a subjective thing. A year ago if you would have told we jumped on the opportunity spend $1200 on a TV then I would have said you are crazy. But given an awesome deal and 24 months no interest financing all of a sudden it became 'affordable' to us. It's still a huge chunk of change for an item that is a luxury but we figured we'd save money in the end over going to movies and sporting events because we'd rather watch these things at home.

My advice is to check www.slickdeals.net multiple times a day. You will find deals posted there that will sell out in minutes sometimes. I just got a great deal on a Gateway laptop and have purchased 90% of my electronics based on deals that I have found there. My plasma was not one of them, ironically.

Here is a deal for the G10 46 inch for a decent price.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889187122&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Plasma-_-Panasonic-_-89187122

googlegoogle
02-09-2010, 10:40 PM
http://www.cheapstingybargains.com/

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-10-2010, 12:38 AM
Thus my "affordable" stiplulation.

You might want to re-read that post there, genius.

Furthermore, those plasmas I listed are more expensive than said CCFL LCDs.

Lzen
02-11-2010, 07:33 AM
i'm a college student fellas I don't have 1,200 to spend. More like 700 or 800 at the most.

http://www.circuitcity.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=5205489&sku=V25-4715&SRCCODE=CCEM240CN&cm_mmc=EML-_-Main-_-CCEM240-_-circuit240

Vizio SV471XVT1A 47" Class LCD HDTV - 1080p, 1920 x 1080, 6500:1 Dynamic, 240 SPS (enhanced 120Hz technology), 4x HDMI, (Refurbished)

Lzen
02-11-2010, 07:50 AM
Here's a smaller TV (Panasonic VIERA S1 Series TC-L32S1 32-Inch 1080p LCD HDTV). Only $380 with free shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B001U3YK48/ref=ord_cart_shr?tag=slickdeals&_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

Frazod
02-11-2010, 08:15 AM
14 years ago I paid $1,000 for a 32" tube TV that I recently gave away. It's amazing how the amount of value you get for your money has increased.

Too bad it's not like this for everything else.

Chocolate Hog
02-11-2010, 12:55 PM
http://www.circuitcity.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=5205489&sku=V25-4715&SRCCODE=CCEM240CN&cm_mmc=EML-_-Main-_-CCEM240-_-circuit240

Vizio SV471XVT1A 47" Class LCD HDTV - 1080p, 1920 x 1080, 6500:1 Dynamic, 240 SPS (enhanced 120Hz technology), 4x HDMI, (Refurbished)

Good looking out.

penchief
02-11-2010, 01:01 PM
I've been window shopping for almost a damn year. I'm kind of glad I waited, though. I've got it narrowed down to a 46" Sony or Samsung LCD. Best price I've seen yet is about two weeks ago Best Buy had a 46" Sony Bravia 240hz on sale for $1299. I regret not jumping on it because every time I've gone back it's gone up. First to $1499 on sale. And just last Sunday it was up to $1699 "on sale."