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'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 07:42 PM
Next thread: Hootie makes death threats to Whitlock.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/the-10-greatest-qbs-of-all-time

Updated Feb 11, 2010 1:37 PM ET
In the immediate 48 hours after Super Bowl XLIV concluded, I was much too emotional to put Peyton Manning (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/peyton-manning/69814)'s career thus far in its proper perspective.

I had to wait out the apologists, the broadcasters, journalists, coaches and executives who act as Manning's secret-service agents, hurling their bodies/integrity in front of every criticism -- no matter how minute -- directed at the Indianapolis quarterback.

These "Men In Peyton's Crack" first trampled Reggie Wayne (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/reggie-wayne/69781)'s reputation, blaming the receiver for lazily telegraphing the route that led to Manning's game-deciding pick-six interception. The MIPC next resorted to diversionary tactics, blasting Pierre Garcon for dropping a second-quarter pass, Hank Baskett for failing to field an onside kick and Jim Caldwell for daring to ask his offense to run the ball on third-and-1 from deep inside Indy territory.

Finally, the director of the MIPC, Colts (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/indianapolis-colts/67048) president/general manager Bill Polian, took the drastic step of throwing Manning's offensive line under the bus, claiming the unit that didn't allow a Super Bowl sack and opened running lanes that produced 5.2 yards per carry was "outplayed pretty decisively" by the Saints (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/new-orleans-saints/67055)' defensive line.

Mission accomplished. Hardly anyone noticed -- or commented -- Manning duplicated LeBron James' sore-loser routine, walking off the field without congratulating any of his opponents.

By Wednesday morning, I was so upset I grabbed my laptop and reached for The Card. I was going to make this column all about the elephant in the room:

In the biggest sporting event in the world, with a record number of people watching and on the game's most important play, a black defensive back outsmarted a beloved white quarterback.

I know. That's a truth many of you can't handle. It makes you uncomfortable. You don't even get what I'm really saying. All of us -- white, black and brown -- get so caught up in our stereotypes that we oftentimes miss what is right in front of us.

Tracy Porter outsmarted Peyton Manning and won the Super Bowl for New Orleans. End of story.

I've listened to black and white analysts -- including Tony Dungy, Jim Caldwell, Cris Carter and others -- point to everything but the truth when it comes to pinpointing the Super Bowl's critical play and affixing blame for it.

Had John Lynch (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/john-lynch/70816) read Brett Favre (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/brett-favre/69674) like a book in Super Bowl XXXIII and decided the game with a fourth-quarter pick-six, there wouldn't have been any talk about a sloppy pass route, mistakes made in the first half and an onside kick that led to a three-point third-quarter lead.

Favre was never hailed as the game's smartest player. Lynch, like most white athletes, was always given credit for being "heady."

Some of you who read my column regularly think I have a major problem with Peyton Manning. I don't. I enjoy watching him play. I admire the values he and his family project. I respect his work ethic. Even with an incomplete resume that will only improve, he is already one of the 10 best quarterbacks of all time.

What annoys me is the hype, the apologists, the he-does-no-wrong treatment from my peers in the media. It's the same thing that bothers me about LeBron James and used to bother me about Brett Favre. Based solely on potential, they're prematurely anointed a level of greatness their accomplishments haven't earned. It's the Obama Principle.

I wanted Manning to win Super Bowl XLIV, play at a high level and justify all the hype. I was prepared to join the bandwagon hailing him as one of the five best QBs of all time and a real threat to finish as the greatest of all time.

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It didn't happen. He blew the game with a horrible INT. He took some air out of his hype balloon. The Men In Peyton's Crack don't want to admit it. They foolishly compare Manning to John Elway, claiming that, like Elway early in his career, Manning suffers from a weak supporting cast. Manning's defenders have the audacity to say that Terrell Davis carried Elway to his two Super Bowl victories.

This is what truly enrages me. It's the knocks on Elway -- The Greatest Football Player of All Time -- that send me over the edge.

When compared to Elway, Peyton Manning's NFL career was born sliding into home plate. As a rookie, Manning walked into a locker room that had future Hall of Famers Marshall Faulk and Marvin Harrison (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/marvin-harrison/69805) and the league's best GM, Bill Polian. By year six, Manning was working with veterans such as Harrison, Edgerrin James (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/edgerrin-james/69770), Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Marcus Pollard and Dwight Freeney. By year nine, when Manning finally qualified for and won a Super Bowl, he was carried by a Tony Dungy defense that covered up Manning's three-TD, seven-INT, subpar playoff run.

Meanwhile, Elway spent his first decade in the league working with Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson, Gaston Green, Sammy Winder, Bobby Humphrey, Clarence Kay, Steve Watson and a defensive-minded head coach, Dan Reeves, who was afraid to unleash Elway until he absolutely had to. In Elway's 10th season (1992), third-year tight end Shannon Sharpe was elevated to a full-time starter, and it marked the first time in Elway's career he threw the ball to a Pro Bowl tight end or receiver.

Elway dragged slop to Super Bowls in 1986, 1987 and 1989.

It's an absolute lie that Manning has taken terrible teams to the Super Bowl. Polian built the Super Bowl Bills teams and the expansion Carolina (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/carolina-panthers/67063) squad that advanced to the NFC Championship in its second season. Polian has never built a one-man team.

I've spent the past four days thinking about and researching NFL quarterbacks. Most people don't even know how to properly define the QB debate. It's not about which quarterback you'd prefer for one game or even one season. It's not about which quarterback in his prime you'd start a franchise with right now.

Football is constantly evolving. The game today is considerably different from the game in the 1960s and 1970s. Each decade -- '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s and '00s -- has a distinct personality. Think about it. In the 1960s, segregation and an unstated quota on black players had an impact on style of play. For most of the 1970s, defenders could molest receivers, treat quarterbacks like tackling dummies and use the head slap. The 1980s saw the transition to a finesse game.

It was a process turning the NFL into a John Madden video game that limits contact with the quarterback to two-hand touch.

The greatest quarterback of all time is the one who could excel in all five eras. The criteria is: Which quarterback would you prefer to start a franchise with in any decade?

I've eliminated Otto Graham and Y.A. Tittle from the conversation. I didn't see them play. And they played in eras severely damaged by segregation.
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Here are the 10 greatest QBs of all time:

1. John Elway: Tremendous athleticism. He was Vince Young (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/vince-young/401227), except he could throw it accurately to any place on the field. Defensive coordinators and safeties feared his long arm so much that running backs Gaston Green, Bobby Humphrey and Sammy Winder all earned Pro Bowl berths taking handoffs from Elway. But the myth is Elway benefitted from Terrell Davis and Davis didn't benefit from Elway. Elway made the Broncos (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/denver-broncos/67044) relevant and dangerous for 16 straight years.

2. Joe Montana: In 10 seasons as a full-time starter in San Francisco (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/san-francisco-49ers/67059), Montana won four Super Bowls, three SB MVPs and two AP league MVPs. He finishes No. 2 because he's not as big, strong and athletic as Elway. Montana excelled in a rhythm and timing passing game. How would he perform in the era when DBs were actually allowed to defend receivers?

3. Johnny Unitas: On this, I defer to the old-timers who swear Mr. Unitas was as good as the modern QBs. He tossed 32 touchdowns in 1959! He led 34 fourth-quarter comebacks, which is second-best all time. He was MVP of the league three times and first-team all-pro five times. He dominated and defined the position throughout the 1960s.

4. Dan Marino: I don't care that he never won a Super Bowl. The dude was awesome. Marino -- not Elway -- holds the record for fourth-quarter comeback victories with 36. Elway is credited with 47, but indisputable research at profootball-reference.com proves that Marino is the real record holder. Marino set the table for the game we have today. His 48-TD, 5,000-yard sophomore season is the equivalent of Wilt Chamberlain's 50-points-a-game season.

5. Steve Young: You could make a strong case for Young being No. 2 behind Elway. He's just as athletic as Elway. Problem is, Young's resume isn't quite long enough to justify it. He had seven great seasons in San Francisco. He rode the bench behind Montana for four seasons, wasted two seasons in Tampa Bay (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/tampa-bay-buccaneers/67061) and two seasons in the USFL. In seven seasons as a starter, Young made the Pro Bowl seven times, was all-pro three times, won the league's MVP award twice and won a Super Bowl and SB MVP trophy.

6. Tom Brady (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/tom-brady/70173): Every name listed above his quarterbacked at least one losing team. Brady has never led a loser. Never. To me, he epitomizes winning at the QB position, even more than Montana. Joe had Jerry Rice for two of his four Super Bowl victories. Brady won three Super Bowls with Troy Brown (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/troy-brown/70232). Brady is a combination old-school, new-school quarterback.

7. Brett Favre: He owns all the records good and bad. He's durable. He's courageous. Teammates love to play with him. He would be a star in the 1920s. It's popular to trash Favre now. The game of football is far better with him than without him. If he comes back next season and gets a second Super Bowl, no one will ever doubt his greatness.

8. Peyton Manning: He might one day move into the top five of this list. But not today. Manning is perfect for the Madden video game era. You put him in the 1960s and 1970s -- when defenders could beat up QBs -- and he just might be Jim Everett. Remember the scrambling play Eli Manning (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/eli-manning/200425) made to win XLII? Peyton would have never made that play because he would've fallen to the ground long before a defender touched him. Again, I like Peyton. He just has some work to do before we overlook his shortcomings and anoint him.

9. Roger Staubach: People forget he missed four seasons because of his commitment to the Naval Academy. He was a 27-year-old rookie in 1969. Think of what his career might have been without his service to our country. He won two Super Bowls and was a six-time Pro Bowler despite an abbreviated career.

10. Fran Tarkenton: He was a great player in two decades -- the 1960s and '70s. He quarterbacked the Vikings (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/minnesota-vikings/67053) to three Super Bowl appearances. He played 18 seasons. He could scramble. He was an accurate passer, completing 60 percent of his passes five of his final six seasons. This was long before a 60-precent completion rate was common place. We often overlook Tarkenton's sustained greatness.

You can e-mail Jason at BallState0@aol.com or follow him on Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/whitlockjason).

keg in kc
02-11-2010, 07:43 PM
This can't be whitlock. He didn't list Jeff George 10 times.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 07:44 PM
That list is fine, I agree with Elway being first, I might have Young slightly higher.

Fruit Ninja
02-11-2010, 07:44 PM
omg, i agree with that list for the most part. At least number 1 and 2.

kstater
02-11-2010, 07:45 PM
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Here are the 10 greatest QBs of all time:

1. John Elway:




aaand stop reading.

RJ
02-11-2010, 07:47 PM
I've never understood the infatuation with comeback wins.

Why is it better to come back and win in the 4th quarter than to win without needing a comeback?

I would put Manning ahead of Young, Brady and Favre. Young missed too much time for that ranking.

Fruit Ninja
02-11-2010, 07:47 PM
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aaand stop reading.

why? its the truth. I pick Elway as my number 1 any day. Yes, he's a Bronco, but he's was the total package he had it ALL. Everything.

Reaper16
02-11-2010, 07:49 PM
His 11-20 is dubious. He puts McNabb ahead of Big Ben.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 07:49 PM
Elway gets knocked by some for losing Superbowls when he took teams there that had no business being there.

I mean really the 3 amigos were complete trash.

CosmicPal
02-11-2010, 07:51 PM
I've never understood the infatuation with comeback wins.



Same here. A great QB would have put the team in a position that it didn't have to worry about 4th quarter comebacks.

Wyndex
02-11-2010, 07:52 PM
For the first time I can say well done fat ass

kstater
02-11-2010, 07:52 PM
why? its the truth. I pick Elway as my number 1 any day. Yes, he's a Bronco, but he's was the total package he had it ALL. Everything.

Because I think Montana is better.

Buzzsaw
02-11-2010, 07:55 PM
Elway's best statistical season - 3535 yards, 55.8% completion, 27 TD's, 11 INT's. Career passer rating of 79.9. 300 TD's, 226 INT's.

Peyton and Marino destroy him statistically.

Montana's got more rings.

Using whatever criteria you want, Elway = Not the GOAT.

CosmicPal
02-11-2010, 07:57 PM
As much as I detest Smellway, I happen to agree with the first 3. I think Marino and Steve Young are both ranked too high.

Favre has to be above Marino and Young both simply because he has broken nearly all records and has endured such a dangerous position for such a long time that that feat in itself is worthy of reputation.

Chocolate Hog
02-11-2010, 07:57 PM
Brett Favre shouldn't be #7. Kurt Warner is a better QB than Favre.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 07:57 PM
Stats wise Troy Aikman is average, this is why football is not a stats game.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 07:58 PM
If there is a gun to your head, and the dude pulls the trigger unless the QB drives all the way down the field with 3 minutes left, down by 4, do you even take Manning in the top 15? The top 20?

Chocolate Hog
02-11-2010, 07:58 PM
Stats wise Troy Aikman is average, this is why football is not a stats game.

I'll remember that when Cassel improves next year.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 07:59 PM
Elway's best statistical season - 3535 yards, 55.8% completion, 27 TD's, 11 INT's. Career passer rating of 79.9. 300 TD's, 226 INT's.

Peyton and Marino destroy him statistically.

Montana's got more rings.

Using whatever criteria you want, Elway = Not the GOAT.

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Bunit
02-11-2010, 07:59 PM
Montana better than Elway, but other than that pretty good list. holla

Tribal Warfare
02-11-2010, 07:59 PM
why? its the truth. I pick Elway as my number 1 any day. Yes, he's a Bronco, but he's was the total package he had it ALL. Everything.

I believe Montana is the GOAT, but I can definitely see why people would have Elway in that spot instead of Joe.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:01 PM
A lot of people won't put Montana first because they believe he played on one of the greatest teams ever assembled and was a product of everything around him, I believe that to some extent.

Chocolate Hog
02-11-2010, 08:02 PM
A lot of people won't put Montana first because they believe he played on one of the greatest teams ever assembled and was a product of everything around him, I believe that to some extent.

I believe those Steelers teams of the 70's would make Montana look like a pussy.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 08:02 PM
A lot of people won't put Montana first because they believe he played on one of the greatest teams ever assembled and was a product of everything around him, I believe that to some extent.

I would also believe this if Marty Schottenheimer's only playoff wins in the last 20 years didn't come with Montana leading an offense whose skill position players were Willie Davis, J.J. Birden, Keith Cash, and Marcus Allen's corpse.

Fruit Ninja
02-11-2010, 08:02 PM
Same here. A great QB would have put the team in a position that it didn't have to worry about 4th quarter comebacks.

Because the QB can play defense as well. IT shows that a QB is calm and cool and ready to fire when the game is on him. It shows that he's not a pussy and folds under pressure. ITs a fucking great stat to have.

the Talking Can
02-11-2010, 08:03 PM
montana is my favorite, but hard to argue with elway


he's pretty much right about manning....there is zero chance he could have done what elway did...

Buzzsaw
02-11-2010, 08:04 PM
It's tough to make a list w/ active and retired players anyways IMO. Brady and/or Peyton could win more SB's, MVP's, break more records before they're done, both are in their prime right now as QB's.

Fruit Ninja
02-11-2010, 08:04 PM
If there is a gun to your head, and the dude pulls the trigger unless the QB drives all the way down the field with 3 minutes left, down by 4, do you even take Manning in the top 15? The top 20?

Hell no, I am taking Elway 1 and Steve Young at 2. They both can run really well. Elway and Young both accurate as fuck. Steve would be in the top 3 if it wasnt for him being behind Montana for 4 years or whatever.

dirk digler
02-11-2010, 08:06 PM
Actually I agree with this for the most part. I think Montana is #1 and Elway #2 and I think Young is a little high other than that not bad jwhit.

Chocolate Hog
02-11-2010, 08:07 PM
What was Montanas record vs Elway?

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 08:07 PM
I believe those Steelers teams of the 70's would make Montana look like a pussy.

Those Steelers teams were predictable and stupid. They were tailor made for a WCO. They come straight ahead. The 49ers would crucify them. Real bad.

Chocolate Hog
02-11-2010, 08:08 PM
Those Steelers teams were predictable and stupid. They were tailor made for a WCO. They come straight ahead. The 49ers would crucify them. Real bad.

With another QB besides Montana who would have been hurt by the end of the 1st Qtr.

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 08:09 PM
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!

Whitlock! Get in here and face your whooping for producing something like this! Elway!?!?! [contemptuous spit] John "Mediocre" Elway?!?! [contemptuous spit]John "Won't play for his team" Elway?!?!? [contemptuous spit] John "Went to a playoff team as a rookie and got to start even though he didn't deserve it" Elway?!?!? [contemptuous spit]

I've been over this a hundred times, but let's look at it once more. This is a quarterback who was mediocre for his first ten years in the league, despite having the huge advantage of whining and crying his way to a team that was a perennial playoff contender. The Broncos had success despite [contemptuous spit] Elway, not because of him, for his first several years in the league. Elway [contemptuous spit] didn't have success until the team was built around a top-notch running back, and even then his success was tainted by proof that his team was cheating on the salary cap.

Manning, on the other hand, went to the team that drafted him. The COLTS! The COLTS! Do you hear that, you snivelly, spoiled, piece of feces [contemptuous spit] Elway? Manning went to the COLTS! And they were horrible when Manning got there. And yet he stood tall and helped them turn around. And the Colts succeeded because they built the team around Manning. When the Broncos tried to build around their spoiled brat of a quarterback, it didn't work.

Give me a real quarterback like Manning over [contemptuous spit] Elway any day. Manning will show up. Elway [contemptuous spit] will show up only if he thinks the team can win anyway.

Mods, would you consider a short ban on Whitlock for saying this? This is the football equivalent of a hate crime.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:09 PM
No one who makes this argument is even saying Montana wasn't a great player, but he was surrounded by elite talent for the majority if his career, he played in at the time a revolutionary offensive scheme that couldn't be defended and he had an issue with durability.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 08:10 PM
With another QB besides Montana who would have been hurt by the end of the 1st Qtr.

Not likely.

The Steelers lacked speed on the edges. The 49ers could have easily ran sprint options to exploit their lack of lateral speed, giving the ball to Roger Clark in space. No one on Pitts teams are going to be able to match up with Rice.

Combine that with the fact that Pittsburgh was a chemical dynasty, and that their size advantage would be nullified by playing a team like the 80's 49ers, and they would be dead meat.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 08:11 PM
Yes, John Elway was mediocre while taking the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls in his first decade.

I really hope Rain Man doesn't try and argue that Warren Moon was a better QB than Elway again. That was fucking embarrassing.

ClevelandBronco
02-11-2010, 08:12 PM
How would Elway have done with Bill Walsh and Jerry Rice, and how would Montana have done with Dan Reeves and the amigos?

Yeah. I thought so.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:12 PM
The 80's 49ers changed the game, their offensive system would have dismantled the Steelers.

Bwana
02-11-2010, 08:12 PM
Because I think Montana is better.

Without question. Jwhit has gone full tard.

dirk digler
02-11-2010, 08:13 PM
What was Montanas record vs Elway?

Montana destroyed Elway in Super Bowl XXIV

<table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Montana</td> <td>22/29</td> <td>297</td> <td>5</td> <td>0</td></tr></tbody></table><table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Elway</td> <td>10/26</td> <td>108</td> <td>0</td> <td>
2

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 08:14 PM
I've never understood the infatuation with comeback wins.

Why is it better to come back and win in the 4th quarter than to win without needing a comeback?

I would put Manning ahead of Young, Brady and Favre. Young missed too much time for that ranking.


Elway [contemptuous spit] had a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks for two reasons. First, because he was mediocre and threw interceptions in the first three quarters, and second, because fourth-quarter comebacks favor guys who can throw a long way. Elway [contemptuous spit] had both of these attributes.

Chocolate Hog
02-11-2010, 08:15 PM
The 80's 49ers changed the game, their offensive system would have dismantled the Steelers.

Yea, thats already been said.

Buzzsaw
02-11-2010, 08:16 PM
Montana destroyed Elway in Super Bowl XXIV

<table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Montana</td> <td>22/29</td> <td>297</td> <td>5</td> <td>0</td></tr></tbody></table><table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Elway</td> <td>10/26</td> <td>108</td> <td>0</td> <td>
2

</td></tr></tbody></table>

And Denver had the #1 defense that year.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:16 PM
Montana destroyed Elway in Super Bowl XXIV

<table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Montana</td> <td>22/29</td> <td>297</td> <td>5</td> <td>0</td></tr></tbody></table><table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Elway</td> <td>10/26</td> <td>108</td> <td>0</td> <td>
2

</td></tr></tbody></table>

And the 49ers were only about 20 times better than the Broncos as a whole.

dirk digler
02-11-2010, 08:17 PM
And Denver had the #1 defense that year.

The Orange Suck?

Adept Havelock
02-11-2010, 08:17 PM
IMO Unitas belongs at #1 considering the era he played.

dirk digler
02-11-2010, 08:18 PM
At least I have figured out Rain Man's weakness now.

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 08:19 PM
How would Elway have done with Bill Walsh and Jerry Rice, and how would Montana have done with Dan Reeves and the amigos?

Yeah. I thought so.

The real question is how Elway [contemptuous spit] would have done if he had joined Frank Kush's Colts instead of getting a hall pass to go to a playoff team off the bat.

I respect Manning for lifting the Colts off the mat. I will despise Elway [contemptuous spit] for eternity for thinking he was better than the game. The game would be better off if he had just run off and played sissy baseball.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:20 PM
Rain Man also hates Thurman Thomas cause he "made faces" so lets have a little perspective here.

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 08:20 PM
At least I have figured out Rain Man's weakness now.

Bah. Elway [contemptuous spit].

ClevelandBronco
02-11-2010, 08:21 PM
And Denver had the #1 defense that year.

Yeah, but they played Kansas City, the L.A. Raiders, Seattle and San Diego twice. That's half a season against teams that finished at best 8-7-1. The Niners played only three teams in the NFC West and two of them had better records than any of the also-rans in the AFC West.

ClevelandBronco
02-11-2010, 08:22 PM
The real question is how Elway [contemptuous spit] would have done if he had joined Frank Kush's Colts instead of getting a hall pass to go to a playoff team off the bat.

I respect Manning for lifting the Colts off the mat. I will despise Elway [contemptuous spit] for eternity for thinking he was better than the game. The game would be better off if he had just run off and played sissy baseball.

The Colts would have had an outside chance of losing three Super Bowls in the 1980s?

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 08:22 PM
Montana destroyed Elway in Super Bowl XXIV

<table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Montana</td> <td>22/29</td> <td>297</td> <td>5</td> <td>0</td></tr></tbody></table><table><tbody><tr><td class="playerStatCell">Elway</td> <td>10/26</td> <td>108</td> <td>0</td> <td>
2

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Let's be fair. This isn't a Brady-Manning debate where the losing QB has equal talent.

That '89 49er team is one of the best teams of all time. They scored 28 points a game and gave up 15.8. They were +12 in turnovers. Their two losses that year were by a combined 5 points.

Their closest playoff game was the NFC Championship. Score? 30-3.

They had two 1000 yard receivers and two backs who combined for another 1000, plus a 1000 yard rusher. Two WRs caught 10+ TD passes

Two 10+ Sack guys, 3 with 7 or more.

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 08:22 PM
Rain Man also hates Thurman Thomas cause he "made faces" so lets have a little perspective here.


Not just for making faces. It's also because he kept saying he was better than Barry Sanders, when he couldn't mow Barry Sanders' lawn.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 08:25 PM
Not just for making faces. It's also because he kept saying he was better than Barry Sanders, when he couldn't mow Barry Sanders' lawn.

He was not better than Sanders, but he was a more complete back. I say that fully acknowledging that Barry Sanders is my favorite non-Priest Holmes player of all time.

DeezNutz
02-11-2010, 08:26 PM
Not just for making faces. It's also because he kept saying he was better than Barry Sanders, when he couldn't mow Barry Sanders' lawn.

I have no problem with this.

When you can bring it like Thermal, you can run your mouth a little bit.

Tuckdaddy
02-11-2010, 08:43 PM
Fucking Steve Young ahead of Brady? That's rediculous. He didn't even really deserve the Hall and they let him in first ballot after 8 seasons. The fact that he stood onj the same stage with Marino is craxy. His stats are not that great and he only got to one Bowl. So what if his QB rating was over 100.

He's not even a top 10 QB.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Steve Young doesn't deserve to be in the Hall?

Are you high? Oh wait it's Tuckdaddy, nevermind.

Deberg_1990
02-11-2010, 08:46 PM
Decent list. I wouldnt put Marino that high, but hes top 10.

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 08:50 PM
Let me point this out, too. Elway [contemptuous spit] walked onto a team that had won 10 games in four of the six previous seasons, including a Super Bowl appearance.

Steve DeBerg, who by the way never walked out on a team, started 5 games in Elway's [contemptuous spit] rookie season and went 4-1 with a 79.9 rating for the season. Gary freaking Kubiak started 1 game and went 1-0 with a 79.0 rating for the season. Elway then got handed the starting job and went 4-6 in 10 games with a 54.9 rating for the season.

Stank? Heck, yeah.

Now, you may argue that he was only a rookie, and he was. A really bad one, too. If that's your excuse for him, then when did he get "good"? Was it his second season when he had a 76.8 rating? His third with a 70.2? His fourth with a 79.0?

If Cassel plays ten years and has a QB rating over 80 ONE year out of ten, are we going to be idolizing him? That's right. Elway [contemptuous spit] had ONE year in his first decade with a QB rating over 80.

In his first ten years, do you know how many years he had more touchdowns than interceptions? Wanna guess?

Five. Only five. And in two of those, he had only one more TD than INT. In his first DECADE in the league, he threw ONE more TD than INT. 158 touchdowns and 157 interceptions. And this on teams that were perennial playoff teams, despite their weak quarterback play. In his first ten years, he had a top-ten defense supporting him FIVE times. FIVE. Think about that.

Elway [contemptuous spit] is purely an ESPN creation. He's Bernard Pollard at quarterback. His occasional long pass play got on an early ESPN, and his numerous chokes and mistakes didn't. He's the Buggles of football.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:51 PM
You should really stop that post just makes you look bad.

ClevelandBronco
02-11-2010, 08:52 PM
Let me point this out, too. Elway [contemptuous spit] walked onto a team that had won 10 games in four of the six previous seasons, including a Super Bowl appearance.

Steve DeBerg, who by the never walked out on a team, started 5 games in Elway's [contemptuous spit] rookie season and went 4-1 with a 79.9 rating for the season. Gary freaking Kubiak started 1 game and went 1-0 with a 79.0 rating for the season. Elway then got handed the starting job and went 4-6 in 10 games with a 54.9 rating for the season.

Stank? Heck, yeah.

Now, you may argue that he was only a rookie, and he was. A really bad one, too. If that's your excuse for him, then when did he get "good"? Was it his second season when he had a 76.8 rating? His third with a 70.2? His fourth with a 79.0?

If Cassel plays ten years and has a QB rating over 80 ONE year out of ten, are we going to be idolizing him? That's right. Elway [contemptuous spit] had ONE year in his first decade with a QB rating over 80.

In his first ten years, do you know how many years he had more touchdowns than interceptions? Wanna guess?

Five. Only five. And in two of those, he had only one more TD than INT. In his first DECADE in the league, he threw ONE more TD than INT. 158 touchdowns and 157 interceptions. And this on teams that were perennial playoff teams, despite their weak quarterback play. In his first ten years, he had a top-ten defense supporting him FIVE times. FIVE. Think about that.

Elway [contemptuous spit] is purely an ESPN creation. He's Bernard Pollard at quarterback. His occasional long pass play got on an early ESPN, and his numerous chokes and mistakes didn't. He's the Buggles of football.

When you put it that way, it's really pretty amazing that he overcame all that to become the greatest of all time. :D

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 08:57 PM
I am a crusader for truth and justice. I will never be silenced on this issue. Eventually another brave soul will stand beside me, then another and another. And eventually our voices will unite and become powerful, and the world will listen to us, and the greatest lie in the history of this planet will collapse in our holy gale of truth.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 08:58 PM
What you're doing would be like if some AFC East fan said Marino was a scrub, or some years from now said Brady was.

notorious
02-11-2010, 08:59 PM
Let me point this out, too. Elway [contemptuous spit] walked onto a team that had won 10 games in four of the six previous seasons, including a Super Bowl appearance.

Steve DeBerg, who by the never walked out on a team, started 5 games in Elway's [contemptuous spit] rookie season and went 4-1 with a 79.9 rating for the season. Gary freaking Kubiak started 1 game and went 1-0 with a 79.0 rating for the season. Elway then got handed the starting job and went 4-6 in 10 games with a 54.9 rating for the season.

Stank? Heck, yeah.

Now, you may argue that he was only a rookie, and he was. A really bad one, too. If that's your excuse for him, then when did he get "good"? Was it his second season when he had a 76.8 rating? His third with a 70.2? His fourth with a 79.0?

If Cassel plays ten years and has a QB rating over 80 ONE year out of ten, are we going to be idolizing him? That's right. Elway [contemptuous spit] had ONE year in his first decade with a QB rating over 80.

In his first ten years, do you know how many years he had more touchdowns than interceptions? Wanna guess?

Five. Only five. And in two of those, he had only one more TD than INT. In his first DECADE in the league, he threw ONE more TD than INT. 158 touchdowns and 157 interceptions. And this on teams that were perennial playoff teams, despite their weak quarterback play. In his first ten years, he had a top-ten defense supporting him FIVE times. FIVE. Think about that.

Elway [contemptuous spit] is purely an ESPN creation. He's Bernard Pollard at quarterback. His occasional long pass play got on an early ESPN, and his numerous chokes and mistakes didn't. He's the Buggles of football.



Jesus, maybe Donk fans were correct when they crowned Jay Cutler as the next Elway.


Nah, Elway was a gamer when it counted.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:01 PM
I don't care if you hate Elway or not the truth is the guy played with total shit from players to coaches for a huge chunk of his career.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 09:06 PM
I would also believe this if Marty Schottenheimer's only playoff wins in the last 20 years didn't come with Montana leading an offense whose skill position players were Willie Davis, J.J. Birden, Keith Cash, and Marcus Allen's corpse.

joe montana kc qb/alchemist

Demonpenz
02-11-2010, 09:06 PM
i love young but he is too high, manning has been a stone cold killer throughout his career I don't know how you don't have him higher. I love Joe Montana, but the lack of being a dude who could move then gun it. Put montana on the donx and elway on the 49ers see how they do. Marino, Elway, Montana in the top 3 in my funyons covered book

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 09:15 PM
I don't care if you hate Elway or not the truth is the guy played with total shit from players to coaches for a huge chunk of his career.

I know that's the standard line, but I'd like to challenge that. I don't think it's true. He came in on a team that was consistently making the playoffs. Did they suddenly get worse because he was there? And their defenses had their share of pro bowlers, I think. Dennis Smith, Atwater...were Louis Wright and Mecklenburg in his era, too? I don't care enough to look it up.

The bottom line is that the Broncos were a successful team before he showed up. It's hard to argue that they weren't when their record indicates otherwise.

In the eight years before Elway showed up, the Broncos went 67-48 (65-41 if you take out the one strike season). In the eight years after Elway showed up, the Broncos went 78-48-1 (68-44-1 if you take out the second strike season). So if you want to say Elway was worth three wins over Craig Morton, maybe I can buy that.

(And I'll acknowledge that he became more productive when the Broncos built their offense around Terrell Davis and converted Elway to the second option. That's where his production rose.)

-King-
02-11-2010, 09:17 PM
Yes, John Elway was mediocre while taking the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls in his first decade.

I really hope Rain Man doesn't try and argue that Warren Moon was a better QB than Elway again. That was fucking embarrassing.

I do think Warren moon is top 10 though.
Posted via Mobile Device

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 09:19 PM
I seriously don't understand why people don't like Steve Young. He was productive as heck, he led his team, he was classy, and he was an absolute terror during his prime. Steve Young is probably #3 on my list.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:21 PM
I think you could easily argue that Young was better than Montana...

I don't like Moon in the top 10 he was a stats machine because of the run n shoot that he played in.

I think I'd consider Aikman before Moon.

Brock
02-11-2010, 09:25 PM
Young had a better team around him than Montana did and did less with it.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 09:26 PM
i love young but he is too high, manning has been a stone cold killer throughout his career I don't know how you don't have him higher. I love Joe Montana, but the lack of being a dude who could move then gun it. Put montana on the donx and elway on the 49ers see how they do. Marino, Elway, Montana in the top 3 in my funyons covered book
I think it's about what type of player someone likes more so than anything else.
i prefer a marino/kurt warner/peyton pocket passer.
elway,young. in the old days scarmbling fran improvise on the fly which some people prefer to a pocket passer.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:26 PM
I disagree with that FA coming in, in 93, really hurt the 49ers.

They spent a lot of money early but could never get up to the Cowboys level.

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 09:28 PM
Here's a race card for ya whitlock . . . Not one black qb anywhere in sight of the top ten

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:29 PM
Here's a race card for ya whitlock . . . Not one black qb anywhere in sight of the top ten

:facepalm:

Count Alex's Losses
02-11-2010, 09:29 PM
I love Joe Montana, but the lack of being a dude who could move then gun it

Look at 37-year old Montana. He's so slow and his arm is so weak.

http://i50.tinypic.com/28wjzap.gif

I think it's a partial myth that Montana was slow and weak-armed. He wasn't Elway but the guy doesn't get the credit he deserves for his physical talents. As the ultimate Joe Montana homer just thought I'd come to his defense. I'm gay for Joe.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:31 PM
No one is saying the guy had no talent, but Montana didn't have some of the pure physical gifts a lot of those other guys did, to me the major issue with him was durability he missed a lot of time with injury over his career.

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 09:32 PM
I kind of feel sorry for the guys who played before the TV era, because they'll never get consideration. Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, Arnie Herber...no one can even try to judge them any more.

When all of us are dead at some point, I think the guys in the bottom half of this list will fade, and maybe the top half too, but they won't ever disappear because there's too much footage of them. The old-timers are gone forever, for the most part.

Demonpenz
02-11-2010, 09:34 PM
Look at 37-year old Montana. He's so slow and his arm is so weak.

http://i50.tinypic.com/28wjzap.gif

I think it's a partial myth that Montana was slow and weak-armed. He wasn't Elway but the guy doesn't get the credit he deserves for his physical talents. As the ultimate Joe Montana homer just thought I'd come to his defense. I'm gay for Joe.

just watched the 49er game the other day Montana had great accuracy for sure

milkman
02-11-2010, 09:35 PM
A lot of people won't put Montana first because they believe he played on one of the greatest teams ever assembled and was a product of everything around him, I believe that to some extent.

And I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand that even with that cast, the 9ers had to play some great teams, like the Giants, the Bears and the Boys, in order to advance in the playoffs.

Theye were a dynastic team before the era of the salary cap and free agency, when there were more than just one great team, and a handful of good teams.

They didn't just get a free ride.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 09:36 PM
I don't know who to take out but some i would have considered putting in top 10
bart starr
jim kelly
kurt warner
bradshaw
aikman
fouts

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 09:36 PM
Really what are the odds whitlock doesn't play the race card in an article , it's just stale. And his idea of top 5 qb's is hilarious . It's gotta go Montana, favre, Marino, Bradshaw , Brady. How could he not have the blonde bomber even in the top ten? The guy has 4 SB rings, and was an absolute stud. I mean c'mon

milkman
02-11-2010, 09:37 PM
montana is my favorite, but hard to argue with elway


he's pretty much right about manning....there is zero chance he could have done what elway did...

Hell, he even has it right when he says that he couldn't do what Eli did, and gave the right reason for that inability.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:38 PM
Terry Bradshaw probably isn't even top 15.

kstater
02-11-2010, 09:40 PM
Really what are the odds whitlock doesn't play the race card in an article , it's just stale. And his idea of top 5 qb's is hilarious . It's gotta go Montana, favre, Marino, Bradshaw , Brady. How could he not have the blonde bomber even in the top ten? The guy has 4 SB rings, and was an absolute stud. I mean c'mon

Brett Favre is not the second best QB ever. I'd put him in the top 10, and could even tolerate someone arguing top 5, but 2?

milkman
02-11-2010, 09:40 PM
Hell no, I am taking Elway 1 and Steve Young at 2. They both can run really well. Elway and Young both accurate as ****. Steve would be in the top 3 if it wasnt for him being behind Montana for 4 years or whatever.

The problem with Young is that it took him the better part of ten years to finally get comfortable with the idea of being a passer first, and running as a last resort, and the result was that he couldn't take that superior cast of talent to the SB until he did finally understand that.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:41 PM
I think Aikman is vastly underrated because he never had huge stats because of how his team played, I fully think if he was with a pass first team he'd have put up huge numbers.

notorious
02-11-2010, 09:41 PM
Terry Bradshaw probably isn't even top 15.

And then some.


Mentioning "Bradshaw" in the same sentence with "top 5" is absolutely insane.

kstater
02-11-2010, 09:43 PM
I think Mecca's covered all his bases.

Aikman has now gone from average to vastly underrated in the span of 80 posts.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:44 PM
That is not what I said, I said if you looked at Aikman's stats you'd think he was an average QB when in reality he wasn't, that was my argument to why stats are overrated in judging football players.

He never had elite stats while being an elite player at his position.

ClevelandBronco
02-11-2010, 09:46 PM
Terry Bradshaw probably isn't even top 15.

I'd agree with that in a heartbeat.

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 09:46 PM
Terry Bradshaw probably isn't even top 15.

How do you figure? The guy won 4 superbowls in 6 yrs and was twice superbowl MVP

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 09:46 PM
Terry Bradshaw probably isn't even top 15.
the fact that bradshaw took a beating early in his career 10X worse than carr and came back to win sbs affects some people's thinking in a positive manner.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:47 PM
the fact that bradshaw took a beating early in his career 10X worse than carr and came back to win sbs affects some people's thinking in a positive manner.

Well that should make Aikman the fucking man then since he got the shit kicked out of him.

milkman
02-11-2010, 09:47 PM
The 80's 49ers changed the game, their offensive system would have dismantled the Steelers.

This entire argument is pure unadulterated bull.

Bill Walsh simply took the short passes from Sid Gillman's offensive system and used it as his primary offense.

And Hank Stram did many of the same things in the 60s.

This idea that Bill Walsh was some great innovative genius is a myth.

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 09:48 PM
Aikmen was definately a top ten guy as well no doubt about it.

notorious
02-11-2010, 09:49 PM
How do you figure? The guy won 4 superbowls in 6 yrs and was twice superbowl MVP

With that logic Dilfer is the equal of Brett Favre and Peyton Manning and was a lot better then Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, etc.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:51 PM
I don't think that highly of Moon, I do think he was largely a product of the offense he played in he was all numbers and no stuff in big games.

notorious
02-11-2010, 09:52 PM
I don't think that highly of Moon, I do think he was largely a product of the offense he played in he was all numbers and no stuff in big games.

Get out of here, he dominated when he wore red........

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 09:52 PM
Well that should make Aikman the fucking man then since he got the shit kicked out of him.
it happens to some and great ones bounce back..steve young comes to mind
i don't understand the hate for aikman i hate dallas but liked him as a qb
i just don't penalize qb's as much as others for playing with alot of talent
it's not a qb's "fault" he has talent around him

Mecca
02-11-2010, 09:54 PM
it happens to some and great ones bounce back..steve young comes to mind
i don't understand the hate for aikman i hate dallas but liked him as a qb
i just don't penalize qb's as much as others for playing with alot of talent
it's not a qb's "fault" he has talent around him

Aikman gets downgraded because if you are just looking at stats his are largely unimpressive because he played on a run first team. He never bitched about it and was fine with just playing his part for them to win.

I have no problem saying he's better than his numbers because if he had passed as much as some of the other guys he'd have put up huge numbers too, he threw one of the best balls in the game and was about as accurate as they come.

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 10:00 PM
With that logic Dilfer is the equal of Brett Favre and Peyton Manning and was a lot better then Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, etc.

No . that is rubish not my point at all, the list of qb's to win four SB's is very short and those on that list should be respected

Mecca
02-11-2010, 10:01 PM
If you want to respect them for playing with a giant list of hall of famers by all means.

milkman
02-11-2010, 10:03 PM
Terry Bradshaw probably isn't even top 15.

Terry Bradshaw is one of the more underrated QBs ever.

He evolved as his team and the game evolved around him.

I don't know that he's top 10, but he is definitely top 15.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 10:04 PM
Aikman gets downgraded because if you are just looking at stats his are largely unimpressive because he played on a run first team. He never bitched about it and was fine with just playing his part for them to win.

I have no problem saying he's better than his numbers because if he had passed as much as some of the other guys he'd have put up huge numbers too, he threw one of the best balls in the game and was about as accurate as they come.
could not have said it better
aikman's line was so big it made him look smaller
i would have liked seeing him in a wide open passing game instead of a running team

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 10:06 PM
If you want to respect them for playing with a giant list of hall of famers by all means.

the guy got the job done when the time came. what more could you ask from him? and is it his fault he had talent around him? No. just because a QB has a good team around him shouldnt diminish his accolades

milkman
02-11-2010, 10:07 PM
If you want to respect them for playing with a giant list of hall of famers by all means.

Good God, you can be a real dumbass some times.

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 10:09 PM
Good God, you can be a real dumbass some times.

how dare you question the great mecca? didnt you know that he types on the golden keyboard of truth. everything that comes out of this guy has to be true. Right??

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 10:09 PM
Rain Man using QB rating to judge a QB before WRs were allowed to run free and defenders weren't allowed to hit them is one of the most asinine applications of any stat in the history of this website.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Rain Man using QB rating to judge a QB before WRs were allowed to run free and defenders weren't allowed to hit them is one of the most asinine applications of any stat in the history of this website.

Nah man the most asinine was when he said he hated Thurman Thomas cause he made faces on the sideline.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 10:11 PM
<table class="wikitable"><tbody><tr><th style="background: rgb(227, 227, 227) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">Rank</th> <th style="background: rgb(227, 227, 227) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">Quarterback</th> <th style="background: rgb(227, 227, 227) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">Passer Rating</th> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>1</td> <td>Steve Young (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Young_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>96.8</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 251, 190);"> <td>2</td> <td>Philip Rivers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Rivers)</td> <td>95.8</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>3</td> <td>Tony Romo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Romo)</td> <td>95.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>4</td> <td>Peyton Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Manning)</td> <td>95.2</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>5</td> <td>Kurt Warner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Warner)</td> <td>93.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>6</td> <td>Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady)</td> <td>93.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>7</td> <td>Joe Montana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Montana)</td> <td>92.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>8</td> <td>Drew Brees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Brees)</td> <td>91.9</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>9</td> <td>Ben Roethlisberger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger)</td> <td>91.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>10</td> <td>Chad Pennington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad_Pennington)</td> <td>90.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>11</td> <td>Carson Palmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carson_Palmer)</td> <td>87.9</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>12</td> <td>Daunte Culpepper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunte_Culpepper)</td> <td>87.8</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>13</td> <td>Jeff Garcia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Garcia)</td> <td>87.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>14</td> <td>Brett Favre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Favre)</td> <td>86.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>15</td> <td>Donovan McNabb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donovan_McNabb)</td> <td>86.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>16</td> <td>Dan Marino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Marino)</td> <td>86.4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>17</td> <td>Trent Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Green)</td> <td>86.0</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>18</td> <td>David Garrard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Garrard)</td> <td>84.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>19</td> <td>Rich Gannon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Gannon)</td> <td>84.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>20</td> <td>Marc Bulger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Bulger)</td> <td>84.4</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>21</td> <td>Jim Kelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Kelly)</td> <td>84.4</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>22</td> <td>Mark Brunell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Brunell)</td> <td>83.9</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>23</td> <td>Jay Cutler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Cutler_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>83.8</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>24</td> <td>Roger Staubach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Staubach)</td> <td>83.4</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>25</td> <td>Matt Hasselbeck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Hasselbeck)</td> <td>83.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td>26</td> <td>Steve McNair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McNair)</td> <td>82.8</td> </tr> <tr> <td>27</td> <td>Brian Griese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Griese)</td> <td>82.7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>28</td> <td>Neil Lomax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Lomax)</td> <td>82.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>29</td> <td>Sonny Jurgensen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Jurgensen)</td> <td>82.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>30</td> <td>Len Dawson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Len_Dawson)</td> <td>82.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>31</td> <td>Brad Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Johnson_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>82.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>32</td> <td>Jason Campbell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Campbell)</td> <td>82.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>33</td> <td>Jake Delhomme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Delhomme)</td> <td>82.1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>34</td> <td>Ken Anderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Anderson_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>81.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>35</td> <td>Bernie Kosar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Kosar)</td> <td>81.8</td> </tr> <tr> <td>36</td> <td>Neil O'Donnell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_O%27Donnell)</td> <td>81.8</td> </tr> <tr> <td>37</td> <td>Danny White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_White)</td> <td>81.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>38</td> <td>Troy Aikman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Aikman)</td> <td>81.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>39</td> <td>Dave Krieg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Krieg)</td> <td>81.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>40</td> <td>Randall Cunningham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Cunningham)</td> <td>81.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>41</td> <td>Boomer Esiason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomer_Esiason)</td> <td>81.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>42</td> <td>Warren Moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Moon)</td> <td>80.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>43</td> <td>Jeff Hostetler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hostetler)</td> <td>80.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>44</td> <td>Bart Starr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_Starr)</td> <td>80.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>45</td> <td>Ken O'Brien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_O%27Brien)</td> <td>80.4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>46</td> <td>Jeff George (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_George)</td> <td>80.4</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>47</td> <td>Fran Tarkenton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran_Tarkenton)</td> <td>80.4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>48</td> <td>Steve Beuerlein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Beuerlein)</td> <td>80.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>49</td> <td>Dan Fouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Fouts)</td> <td>80.2</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>50</td> <td>John Elway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elway)</td> <td>79.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>51</td> <td>Tony Eason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Eason)</td> <td>79.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>52</td> <td>Byron Leftwich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Leftwich)</td> <td>79.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>53</td> <td>Elvis Grbac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Grbac)</td> <td>79.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>54</td> <td>Eli Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Manning)</td> <td>79.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>55</td> <td>Chris Chandler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Chandler)</td> <td>79.1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>56</td> <td>Mark Rypien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rypien)</td> <td>78.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>57</td> <td>Jim Everett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Everett)</td> <td>78.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>58</td> <td>Aaron Brooks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Brooks_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>78.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>59</td> <td>Phil Simms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Simms)</td> <td>78.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>60</td> <td>Bert Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Jones)</td> <td>78.2</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>61</td> <td>Johnny Unitas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Unitas)</td> <td>78.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>62</td> <td>Jim McMahon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McMahon)</td> <td>78.2</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>63</td> <td>Otto Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Graham)</td> <td>78.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>64</td> <td>Jeff Blake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Blake)</td> <td>78.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>65</td> <td>Bobby Hebert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Hebert)</td> <td>78.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>66</td> <td>Frank Ryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Ryan_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>77.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>67</td> <td>Jim Harbaugh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Harbaugh)</td> <td>77.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>68</td> <td>Joe Theismann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Theismann)</td> <td>77.4</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>69</td> <td>Bob Griese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Griese)</td> <td>77.1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>70</td> <td>Jay Fiedler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Fiedler)</td> <td>77.1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>71</td> <td>Drew Bledsoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Bledsoe)</td> <td>77.1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>72</td> <td>Bill Kenney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Kenney)</td> <td>77.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>73</td> <td>Erik Kramer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Kramer)</td> <td>76.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>74</td> <td>Jon Kitna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kitna)</td> <td>76.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>75</td> <td>Gary Danielson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Danielson)</td> <td>76.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>76</td> <td>Doug Flutie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Flutie)</td> <td>76.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>77</td> <td>Michael Vick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Vick)</td> <td>75.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>78</td> <td>Stan Humphries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Humphries)</td> <td>75.8</td> </tr> <tr> <td>79</td> <td>Wade Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade_Wilson_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>75.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>80</td> <td>Steve Bartkowski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bartkowski)</td> <td>75.4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>81</td> <td>Ken Stabler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Stabler)</td> <td>75.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td>82</td> <td>Scott Mitchell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Mitchell_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>75.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td>83</td> <td>Steve Bono (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bono)</td> <td>75.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>84</td> <td>David Carr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Carr)</td> <td>75.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>85</td> <td>Tim Couch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Couch)</td> <td>75.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>86</td> <td>Norm Van Brocklin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_Van_Brocklin)</td> <td>75.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>87</td> <td>Sid Luckman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Luckman)</td> <td>75.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>88</td> <td>Vinny Testaverde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinny_Testaverde)</td> <td>75.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>89</td> <td>Chris Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Miller_%28American_football%29)</td> <td>74.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>90</td> <td>Don Meredith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Meredith)</td> <td>74.8</td> </tr> <tr> <td>91</td> <td>Brian Sipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Sipe)</td> <td>74.8</td> </tr> <tr> <td>92</td> <td>Jake Plummer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Plummer)</td> <td>74.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>93</td> <td>Roman Gabriel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Gabriel)</td> <td>74.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td>94</td> <td>Gus Frerotte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_Frerotte)</td> <td>74.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>95</td> <td>Steve Deberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Deberg)</td> <td>74.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>96</td> <td>Earl Morrall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Morrall)</td> <td>74.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(239, 187, 187);"> <td>97</td> <td>Y.A. Tittle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y.A._Tittle)</td> <td>73.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>98</td> <td>Craig Morton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Morton)</td> <td>73.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(191, 254, 190);"> <td>99</td> <td>Kerry Collins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_Collins)</td> <td>73.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>100</td> <td>Rodney Peete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Peete)</td> <td>73.3</td></tr></tbody></table>

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 10:13 PM
You're afraid to see the truth about the Elway Conspiracy. He's an ESPN creation, nothing more. The facts don't lie.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 10:14 PM
Fucking piece of shit Chad Pennington and Neil O'Donnell have higher QB ratings than Elway. Marc Bulger and David Garrard over Jim Kelly.

Hell of a fucking stat, that QB rating.

:facepalm:

Aaron Brooks >> Unitas.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 10:15 PM
You're afraid to see the truth about the Elway Conspiracy. He's an ESPN creation, nothing more. The facts don't lie.

I guess it's a good thing that Chris Berman, Bob Ley and Tom Meeks were all on the officiating crew of those AFC Ch. games he won.

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 10:16 PM
Thanks for the list, Hamas. It pretty much proves that Elway was below average among the tenured quarterbacks of his era.

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 10:18 PM
QB ratings are so hard to freaking understand , the only real stats to focus on are yardage, TD/ints and WIN percentage, which elway happens to still hold the record on, the others favre won by default considering he probably will play until he's 50. the toughness he has displayed over the years will probably never be matched by any player at any position on the field in this generation IMO

Rain Man
02-11-2010, 10:18 PM
****ing piece of shit Chad Pennington and Neil O'Donnell have higher QB ratings than Elway. Marc Bulger and David Garrard over Jim Kelly.

Hell of a ****ing stat, that QB rating.

:facepalm:

Aaron Brooks >> Unitas.


Then compare them within their own eras. While I don't think the rating is perfect (it overvalues touchdown passes, which I don't think should even be considered), there is a correlation between greatness and a high QB rating for your era.

Marcellus
02-11-2010, 10:18 PM
Threads like this crack me up. Elway was great but he gets too many excuses made for his early SB loses. I dont have an issue with him at #2 but Super Joe was #1. Physical skills? Yea Elway was better. Smarts and accuracy. Joe all the way. Who has more physical skill Cutler or Brady?

The Elway haters say Montana had more talent around him. Bottom line is if you have talent enough around to get to the SB don't get blown out when you get there and don't go 10/26 passing.

In his four Super Bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes for 1,142 yards and 11 touchdowns with no interceptions, earning him a passer rating of 127.8. Montana led his team to victory in each game, and is the only player ever to win three Super Bowl MVP awards.

You can't beat that.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 10:19 PM
If you're going to argue physical talent plus winning then Aikmans the best ever I guess.

Chiefnj2
02-11-2010, 10:22 PM
Staubach was pretty good in his Super Bowls.

Marcellus
02-11-2010, 10:24 PM
If you're going to argue physical talent plus winning then Aikmans the best ever I guess.

Not when he wasnt the MVP on his own team most of the time. He threw how many TD's in the SB? 5 in 3 games. 4 in the first one 1 in the next 2.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 10:26 PM
Not when he wasnt the MVP on his own team most of the time. He threw how many TD's in the SB? 5 in 3 games. 4 in the first one 1 in the next 2.

Like I said his stats are not impressive because of the way his team played but I have no question the Cowboys could have put up huge passing numbers had they desired to do that.

I also think he was far more valuable to that team than any of the other guys on offense were, he was the glue that held them together.

Marcellus
02-11-2010, 10:28 PM
I also think he was far more valuable to that team than any of the other guys on offense were, he was the glue that held them together.

Remember when they started 0-2 when Emmit Smiff held out?

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 10:28 PM
Threads like this crack me up. Elway was great but he gets too many excuses made for his early SB loses. I dont have an issue with him at #2 but Super Joe was #1. Physical skills? Yea Elway was better. Smarts and accuracy. Joe all the way. Who has more physical skill Cutler or Brady?

The Elway haters say Montana had more talent around him. Bottom line is if you have talent enough around to get to the SB don't get blown out when you get there and don't go 10/26 passing.

In his four Super Bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes for 1,142 yards and 11 touchdowns with no interceptions, earning him a passer rating of 127.8. Montana led his team to victory in each game, and is the only player ever to win three Super Bowl MVP awards.

You can't beat that.

You are correct sir, the talent issue is kind of a moot point considering being in the SB you obviously have to have a pretty damn good team.

And here's to hoping that matt cassel can be half as good as "Cool Joe", that would just be awesome. it sure would be nice for the chiefs to have a QB that could be mentioned as one of the top QB's of his time. He sure has a long way to go, but with haley/weis in his corner things are finally starting to look up for him and his statistics

milkman
02-11-2010, 10:29 PM
If you're going to argue physical talent plus winning then Aikmans the best ever I guess.

The greatest QBs always stepped up and raised the level of their play on the biggest stages.

Yes, Aikman is highly underrated, as is Bradshaw.

But when the lights came on in the bigest games, on the biggest stage, no one showed up more cosistently than Joe Montana.

Mecca
02-11-2010, 10:31 PM
Remember when they started 0-2 when Emmit Smiff held out?

Smith was important to that team and they had no backup for him either so there was that.

My point was without Aikman I don't know if that team could have existed he was the no bullshit guy that kept them going.

Marcellus
02-11-2010, 10:31 PM
The greatest QBs always stepped up and raised the level of their play on the biggest stages.

Yes, Aikman is highly underrated, as is Bradshaw.

But when the lights came on in the bigest games, on the biggest stage, no one showed up more cosistently than Joe Montana.

Exactly.

Marcellus
02-11-2010, 10:35 PM
Smith was important to that team and they had no backup for him either so there was that.

My point was without Aikman I don't know if that team could have existed he was the no bullshit guy that kept them going.

He made a difference.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 10:35 PM
joe willie should be in there somewhere

HotRoute
02-11-2010, 10:35 PM
Smith was important to that team and they had no backup for him either so there was that.

My point was without Aikman I don't know if that team could have existed he was the no bullshit guy that kept them going.

this is exactly what it takes, all of the guys that have been discussed are better than some of the garbage that whitlock puts out there. this guy wouldnt know a top ten QB list from his ass. he is easily the most annoying columnist i can remember

milkman
02-11-2010, 10:38 PM
joe willie should be in there somewhere

Namath was one of the most overrated QBs ever.

He made a reputation for himself, and created a legend, with his SB guarentee, but the reality is, he was a fairly average QB for much of his career, due in large part to injuries.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 10:46 PM
Namath was one of the most overrated QBs ever.

He made a reputation for himself, and created a legend, with his SB guarentee, but the reality is, he was a fairly average QB for much of his career, due in large part to injuries.

quick release and threw one of the best deep passes of his era
he got alot of the ny jeter type too commercial hate and the hippie thing turned others off
but for a short stretch during kc sb era he was pretty good

ClevelandBronco
02-11-2010, 10:50 PM
joe willie should be in there somewhere

He's sweeping up out back where he belongs.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 10:53 PM
a healthy namath or Tarkenton,,,
i'll take namath

milkman
02-11-2010, 10:53 PM
quick release and threw one of the best deep passes of his era
he got alot of the ny jeter type too commercial hate and the hippie thing turned others off
but for a short stretch during kc sb era he was pretty good

Opereative phrase here.

"Short stretch"

Namath had incredible talent, the quick release you mentioned, the charisma, the leadership, and early on was far more mobile than people remember.

But the knee injuries really blew up his game, and after his first 5 seasons or so, he never really played at the same level as he did early on.

warrior
02-11-2010, 10:54 PM
Threads like this crack me up. Elway was great but he gets too many excuses made for his early SB loses. I dont have an issue with him at #2 but Super Joe was #1. Physical skills? Yea Elway was better. Smarts and accuracy. Joe all the way. Who has more physical skill Cutler or Brady?

The Elway haters say Montana had more talent around him. Bottom line is if you have talent enough around to get to the SB don't get blown out when you get there and don't go 10/26 passing.

In his four Super Bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes for 1,142 yards and 11 touchdowns with no interceptions, earning him a passer rating of 127.8. Montana led his team to victory in each game, and is the only player ever to win three Super Bowl MVP awards.

You can't beat that.




This--------------and no you can't :thumb:

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 10:54 PM
Then compare them within their own eras. While I don't think the rating is perfect (it overvalues touchdown passes, which I don't think should even be considered), there is a correlation between greatness and a high QB rating for your era.

Romo>>Every other player of his era, sans Rivers.

Pennington>> Favre, McNabb, and Hasselbeck

Daunte Culpepper is not one of the best QBs of his era, and Leftwich is not better than Eli Manning.

QB rating is good for individual games, but over a span of time, it's next to worthless.

milkman
02-11-2010, 10:55 PM
a healthy namath or Tarkenton,,,
i'll take namath

Namath is his first 5 years, sure.

But if I want longevity, consistency, and availability, I'd take Tarkenton.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 10:56 PM
FWIW, there's no right or wrong answer to the Montana or Elway question, and the people who try to tear one down to make the other look better are being foolish.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 11:03 PM
Opereative phrase here.

"Short stretch"

Namath had incredible talent, the quick release you mentioned, the charisma, the leadership, and early on was far more mobile than people remember.

But the knee injuries really blew up his game, and after his first 5 seasons or so, he never really played at the same level as he did early on.

Agree
but Tarkenton's durability doesn't make him better to me.
namath was like mattingly in baseball...great while he played but only for a stretch
i know you watched during that era like me
unitas,starr,dawson,namath.lamonica even...theres alot of qbs you name before Tarkenton
to me a top 10 should be he was one of the best during his career more so than did he play long enough to get great numbers

blaise
02-11-2010, 11:07 PM
The reason I take Montana is because if you put a gun to my head and tell me I've got to pick one guy to win a game for me, I'm taking Montana over Elway. With Elway you thought he might do something great to win the game, or could do it, but he didn't put the fear into you the same way Montana did, in my opinion.

blaise
02-11-2010, 11:18 PM
I don't think that highly of Moon, I do think he was largely a product of the offense he played in he was all numbers and no stuff in big games.

You're making allowances for Aikman on one hand though, and not for Moon, aren't you? You're saying Aikman could have had big numbers in a pass happy offense. Moon could have won Super Bowls with a team like the Cowboys had. Besides, Moon lost part of his career because he basically couldn't get a shot in the NFL. I wouldn't put either one in the top 10, but I think Moon gets a bad rap from some people.
It wasn't Moon's fault the Oilers blew a 35 point second half lead to Buffalo in the playoffs either.

Short Leash Hootie
02-11-2010, 11:21 PM
I love how Hamas "24 years old" Jenkins talks about legendary QB's like he knows...

Just like the draft...

Just like anything else...

Which is why I always talk about Manning and Brady...

I'm not going to comment about players who were in their prime when I was either not born, or less than 10 years old.

But Hamas is a know-it-all...even on stuff that he has never seen.

Hey Hamas when I was 9 I was convinced Michael Jordan never missed a shot and was probably bigger than life itself...when in reality he probably was no more talented than Kobe Bryant and I think Kobe Bryant blows.

Short Leash Hootie
02-11-2010, 11:23 PM
which is why all these dipshit 9 year olds in 1993 comment about how great Joe Montana was when he was on the Chiefs...

of course he was great...he was on the only teach you watched, you were young and had no attention span...and he actually won some playoff games and on top of that...he was Joe freaking Montana according to the man you looked up to (most likely your father)...of course that's going to leave some kind of impression

Chiefs Pantalones
02-11-2010, 11:23 PM
I'm surprised his list didn't start out with Javarious Jackson, Doug Williams, Donovan McNabb and insert any other black QB over the years or whatever.

Short Leash Hootie
02-11-2010, 11:24 PM
Whitlock hates black people more than me and that's hard to imagine.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 11:31 PM
I love how Hamas "24 years old" Jenkins talks about legendary QB's like he knows...

Just like the draft...

Just like anything else...

Which is why I always talk about Manning and Brady...

I'm not going to comment about players who were in their prime when I was either not born, or less than 10 years old.

But Hamas is a know-it-all...even on stuff that he has never seen.

Hey Hamas when I was 9 I was convinced Michael Jordan never missed a shot and was probably bigger than life itself...when in reality he probably was no more talented than Kobe Bryant and I think Kobe Bryant blows.

I'm 27, FWIW. I watched Montana's comeback against the Bengals as it happened. I've seen every Super Bowl since XXIII live w/ the exception of XXVI.

I'm also far more intelligent than you, and it's altogether likely that my cognitive development at 3 was above yours at 13, so we're not really applicable at all.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 11:32 PM
Whitlock hates black people more than me and that's hard to imagine.

Yes, we get it. You're a racist, an attention whore, and a fucking moron. Congratulations.

Short Leash Hootie
02-11-2010, 11:33 PM
Whatever buddy...

You can stick to talking about Elway, Brady, Manning, Young, and Aikman just like me...

You can stop referencing Montana like you watched him in his prime or something...

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-11-2010, 11:35 PM
Whatever buddy...

You can stick to talking about Elway, Brady, Manning, Young, and Aikman just like me...

You can stop referencing Montana like you watched him in his prime or something...

I did watch him in his prime, you dumb motherfucker.

I sat right on the middle of my mom's white sectional couch and watched SB XXIV.

I watched his prime end when Leonard Marshall KTFO'd him for two years.

Don't fucking tell me what I did and didn't see, you inveterate fucking cock.

RippedmyFlesh
02-11-2010, 11:39 PM
Namath is his first 5 years, sure.

But if I want longevity, consistency, and availability, I'd take Tarkenton.
That was the best era for qb's.
today there are 7-8 really good qb's and the rest ok to jemarcus level
back then most teams had a pretty good qb with only a 1/2 dozens or so with so so or bad qbs
jim ray hart...john brodie sonny jurgensen norm snead john hadl roman gabriel
and thats after unitas starr tarkenton namath
with less teams there were more good qbs

cdcox
02-11-2010, 11:45 PM
How do you figure? The guy won 4 superbowls in 6 yrs and was twice superbowl MVP

Bradshaw was at best the 5th best QB of his era.

Fouts, Staubach, Ken Anderson, and Tarkenton were all better, without a doubt.

Cassel could go to the HOF QBing that '70s Steelers team. They were that good. Bradshaw wasn't.

-King-
02-11-2010, 11:50 PM
Namath is his first 5 years, sure.

But if I want longevity, consistency, and availability, I'd take Tarkenton.

I don't know. I guess its cause I didn't get to see him play, but having only one(iirc) season of having more tds than picks in a whole career is pretty terrible. He should not be in anybodys top 10. I know football isn't all about stats, but damn, he should atleast have mediocre stats for him to be in anyone's top 10.
Posted via Mobile Device

"Bob" Dobbs
02-11-2010, 11:52 PM
WTF is the love for Lenny? Where would Dawson end up in your GOAT list?

Fruit Ninja
02-12-2010, 12:00 AM
The problem with Young is that it took him the better part of ten years to finally get comfortable with the idea of being a passer first, and running as a last resort, and the result was that he couldn't take that superior cast of talent to the SB until he did finally understand that.

He would have learned that earlier if he didnt have to sit behind montana for them years. I live in Niner country. I watched just about every single game they played as i had no other choice if i was going to watch the Chiefs. I remember everyone wanting Montana benched for Young.

During his prime though, when he was on point, there were NOT many better then him. Still, Elway, Young, Montana, Ect ect ect. they were all great QB's. ITs all personal preference i guess. Thats how i would do it though in that order.

cdcox
02-12-2010, 12:06 AM
My top 10 of guys I saw play:

1. Montana
2. Manning
3. Marino
4. Elway
5. Staubach
6. Fouts
7. Favre
8. Young
9. Aikman
10. Brady

I saw Unitas, Starr and Nameth, but not in their prime years. I saw Dawson in his late prime, but what I saw doesn't crack this list.

Guru
02-12-2010, 12:12 AM
Marino should not be that high.

cdcox
02-12-2010, 12:58 AM
Marino should not be that high.

1. Great statistics.
2. Surrounded by mediocre talent. Had terrible support in the running game.
3. Great mechanics, arm strength, quick release. Picture book pocket passer.

That overcomes his lack of post season success, which is really the only knock you can make against him.

Von Dumbass
02-12-2010, 01:05 AM
Jason Whitlock is a very wise man.

blaise
02-12-2010, 01:06 AM
1. Great statistics.
2. Surrounded by mediocre talent. Had terrible support in the running game.
3. Great mechanics, arm strength, quick release. Picture book pocket passer.

That overcomes his lack of post season success, which is really the only knock you can make against him.

His receivers weren't even that great. Clayton and Duper were there for the beginning, but after that Irving Fryar was not in his prime when he was at Miami. Tony Martin was ok, but he used to drop a lot of balls when he played there. OJ McDuffie was ok, but he was really a posession receiver. Nothing that would scare anyone.
One of his biggest problems was that the Bills had much better talent during a big chunk of his career and Miami struggled to get past them.

Short Leash Hootie
02-12-2010, 01:44 AM
My top 10 of guys I saw play:

1. Montana
2. Manning
3. Marino
4. Elway
5. Staubach
6. Fouts
7. Favre
8. Young
9. Aikman
10. Brady

I saw Unitas, Starr and Nameth, but not in their prime years. I saw Dawson in his late prime, but what I saw doesn't crack this list.

I can mother fuckin' rep to this!

pikesome
02-12-2010, 02:29 AM
Marino should not be that high.

If I think of the best passer I ever saw I always think Marino. He could throw the ball like no other.

Although I'll admit that being 9 in 1984 and witnessing that year might have colored by memories.

JOhn
02-12-2010, 05:15 AM
Jason Whitlock is a very wise man.

:LOL::LOL:LMAOROFL

stumppy
02-12-2010, 05:54 AM
For me the Monday night win against the doncos makes Joe Cool #1 for me. Well, that and the rest of his career.

whatsmynameagain
02-12-2010, 06:38 AM
i guess fatty didnt do his research, brady and manning both have more 4th quarter comebacks/game winning drives than elway, IN LESS GAMES.


Posted via Mobile Device

TheGuardian
02-12-2010, 08:23 AM
Whitless is, and always has been a complete dumbass when it comes to quarterbacks.

I like how he says that Elway drug slop to 3 super bowls, then doesn't mention that the Donkeys got their asses kicked each time. So if you're going to give Elway all of the credit for "dragging slop" to the SB, then he gets to shoulder all of the blame for the rest-stop-bathroom ass rapings those teams took once there. You can't have it both ways. Elway was average for years and years stats wise, and that was during a time when the AFC was garbage. Which is why those donkey teams got pulverized in the Super Bowl over and over.

Whitless is so fucking stupid he says he thought about listing Young behind Elway. Why? Because of measurables and physical tools. So he would have Brady and Montana (7 Super Bowl wins and 8 appearances) behind Elway and Young (3 SB wins in 6 appearances).

Yes Fatlock you truly are a dumbass MF'er.

Dayze
02-12-2010, 08:29 AM
what a trash piece - ...not one single mention of Bubby Brister.

KCbroncoHATER
02-12-2010, 08:30 AM
Terry Bradshaw won 4 and his name is no where to be found.

How can a guy who played in and won one be above him?

BigMeatballDave
02-12-2010, 08:31 AM
IMO, Namath does not deserve to be in the HOF. His numbers are horrible.

Tango&Cash
02-12-2010, 08:41 AM
Brett Favre shouldn't be #7. Kurt Warner is a better QB than Favre.

No he's not.

wild1
02-12-2010, 08:48 AM
I knew without even looking that he'd put Elway at the top. He's a pot-stirrer. Nothing more.

wild1
02-12-2010, 08:49 AM
i guess fatty didnt do his research, brady and manning both have more 4th quarter comebacks/game winning drives than elway, IN LESS GAMES.


Posted via Mobile Device

I think I read that Denver claims Elway has the most, but that's only counting games where the score was tied as a "comeback", not just when they were behind.

Chiefnj2
02-12-2010, 09:02 AM
www.realgm.com
How Peyton's Playoff Record Compares To All-Time Greats
11th February, 2010 - 10:08 pm
Christopher Reina/RealGM - Sports legacies are built and destroyed, fair or unfair, by postseason performances. This is especially true for quarterbacks during Super Bowls, when over 100 million people are watching.

The quality of the competition inevitably elevates during the postseason, so quarterbacks shouldn't be expected to post the same type of gaudy numbers against the 85 Bears (12.4 points per game, 51.2 passer rating) as they do in an easy Week 12 game against the 08 Lions (32.3 points per game, 110.9 passer rating).

But at the same time, teams will infrequently win if their most important player significantly declines in the most meaningful situations.

This issue has been a frequently discussed one in the aftermath of Peyton Manning's arrival on the doorstep of being anointed the best quarterback ever and his quick dismissal with one simple interception by Tracy Porter.

Below is a sampling of the NFL's greatest quarterbacks, all of whom have a wealth of playoff experience, comparing how they have performed in the playoffs and the regular season.

Here are some interesting insights gleaned from the data:

- While Peyton Manning's winning percentage has dipped significantly in the playoffs (-26.7%), his also sizable decline in passer rating (-8.0%) is slightly better than Tom Brady, who is frequently compared to Joe Montana as a big game quarterback. While Brady is a Reche Caldwell dropped touchdown pass from having an even better winning percentage and a fourth Super Bowl, some of that clutch reputation might be overstated. Though Brady's passer rating is 85.5 in 18 total playoff games, it elevates to 94.5 in those four Super Bowl appearances.

- Even though he played in an entirely different era and only passed for 152 career touchdowns, Bart Starr's differentials quite simply jump off of the page. Starr and the Packers were an unstoppable force throughout the 1960s when they won five titles. His passer rating jumped from 84.6 to 104.8 during his 10 career playoff games, of which he won nine.

- As expected, Joe Montana was even a little bit better during the playoffs (95.6) than he was while setting records in the regular season (92.3) with the 1980s 49ers. What is even more impressive about Montana is that he frequently had to contend with those vaunted Bears and Giants defenses of the era during the playoffs.

- Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman are two Hall of Famers who likely wouldn't be if they played for the 70s Saints or 90s Bucs instead of Super Bowl dynasties, but they very clearly elevated their performance in the NFL's second season. Bradshaw's passer rating was 17.1% better in the playoffs, while Aikman's was 8.2% better.

- Dan Marino is frequently lauded for his comebacks, but his numbers indicate he was a better quarterback during the fall of October than the winter of January.

- The active quarterbacks are listed below and bold and feature Drew Brees on the top end, his San Diego replacement Philip Rivers on the bottom and a whole collection of others in the median.

- The Kurt Warner HOF credential debate will continue to percolate until he is voted in or no longer is eligible, but these numbers unquestionably bolster his case. His passer rating jumped up from an excellent 93.7 to a modern era best of 102.8, while his winning percentage also was excellent. Warner's two Super Bowl losses were in the final seconds and by three points and four points, though his win was one Kevin Dyson yard from becoming an overtime game.

- The outspoken Fran Tarkenton has the distinction of having the biggest decline during the playoffs, going from 80.4 to 58.6. He also was 0-3 with a 43.7 rating during his three Super Bowls.

Player: Rating Differential (Playoffs, Regular), WP% Differential (Playoffs, Regular)

* Quarterbacks listed in terms of passer rating differential percentage.

Bart Starr: 23.9% (104.8, 84.6), 36.0% (0.900, 0.662)
Jim Plunkett: 21.3% (81.9, 67.5), -38.8% (0.490, 0.800)
Terry Bradshaw: 17.1% (83.0, 70.9), 11.5% (0.737, 0.661)
Drew Brees: 12.8% (103.7, 91.9), 19.7% (0.667, 0.557)
Ken Stabler: 11.8% (84.2, 75.3), -15.4% (0.538 , 0.636)
Kurt Warner: 9.7% (102.8 , 93.7), 20.1% (0.692, 0.576)
Troy Aikman: 8.2% (88.3, 81.6), 20.7% (0.688, 0.570)
Warren Moon: 4.9% (84.9, 80.9), -40.6% (0.300, 0.505)
Joe Montana: 3.6% (95.6, 92.3), -0.7% (0.696 , 0.701)
John Elway: -0.3% ( 79.7, 79.9) -0.2% (0.636, 0.637)
Brett Favre: -0.3% (86.3, 86.6), -14.4% (0.542, 0.633)
Phil Simms: -1.9% (77.0, 78.5), 2.6% (0.600, 0.585)
Eli Manning: -2.0% (77.6, 79.2), 0.5% (0.571 , 0.568)
Ben Roethlisberger: -4.9% (87.2, 91.7), 17.3% (0.800, 0.682)
Donovan McNabb: -7.5% (80.0, 86.5), -9.6% (0.563 , 0.623)
Peyton Manning: -8.0% (87.6, 95.2), -26.7% (0.500, 0.682)
Tom Brady: -8.4% (85.5, 93.3), 3.5% (0.778, 0.752)
Randall Cunningham: -8.8% (74.3, 81.5), -28.2% (0.417, 0.581)
Roger Staubach: -8.9% (76.0, 83.4), -12.0% (0.632, 0.718)
Johnny Unitas: -9.0% (68.9, 75.7), 5.5% (0.667, 0.632)
Dan Marino: -10.8% (77.1, 86.4), -26.9% (0.444, 0.607)
Steve Young: -11.4% (85.8, 96.8), -12.4% (0.600, 0.685)
Jim Kelly: -14.3% (72.3, 84.4), -16.2% (0.529, 0.631)
Bob Griese: -16.2% (68.3, 81.5), -17.8% (0.583, 0.709)
Philip Rivers: -17.3% (79.2, 95.8), -39.6% (0.429, 0.710)
Steve McNair: -19.4% (66.7, 82.8), -14.7% (0.500, 0.586)
Fran Tarkenton: -27.1% (58.6, 80.4), 6.0% (0.545, 0.514)

TEX
02-12-2010, 09:07 AM
Typical Whitlock - he's putting Elway # 1 to get reactions. IF Montana, or any of the great QB's played for Denver, he would rank them # 1.

vailpass
02-12-2010, 10:20 AM
LMAO Big John Elway victimized KC for so long that some of you are left with permanent butt hurt.
Your anger is a testament to his greatness.

Brock
02-12-2010, 10:21 AM
Who cares which one of them you put in first place, there's a valid argument for either one and it usually comes down to your personal preference.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-12-2010, 10:53 AM
Who cares which one of them you put in first place, there's a valid argument for either one and it usually comes down to your personal preference.

Common sense isn't exactly plentiful on here.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-12-2010, 10:53 AM
Typical Whitlock - he's putting Elway # 1 to get reactions. IF Montana, or any of the great QB's played for Denver, he would rank them # 1.

I knew without even looking that he'd put Elway at the top. He's a pot-stirrer. Nothing more.

He didn't write this for the Star, dipshit.

Short Leash Hootie
02-12-2010, 11:32 AM
I know for a fact the Broncos were favored to win against the Redskins in the Super Bowl and they lost by 45...

I don't know about the other two losses...

If Peyton Manning lost by 45...

KCbroncoHATER
02-12-2010, 11:37 AM
They also had a top ten defense in all three sb losses.

So he didn't carry the team like everyone would like you to believe.

vailpass
02-12-2010, 12:07 PM
Keep telling yourself whatever you need to in order to make the Elway nightmares go away.

Baby Lee
02-12-2010, 12:26 PM
I will say this, I never for a moment thought about a black man outsmarting a white man with that play. I thought about one of the 'great minds' of the game throwing a Matt Leinart/Rick Mirer bone headed flat pass, that everyone on earth [except them] knows you don't throw, on the biggest stage in the game. I saw that pass going to the house the instant it left his hands.

Rain Man
02-12-2010, 12:42 PM
Keep telling yourself whatever you need to in order to make the Elway nightmares go away.

What are you talking about? I see nothing negative here.

vailpass
02-12-2010, 12:56 PM
What are you talking about? I see nothing negative here.

You are the goods Rain.

Rain Man
02-12-2010, 01:50 PM
Common sense isn't exactly plentiful on here.

Tell me about it. So far, I think I've only convinced three or four other people that Elway [contemptuous spit] was mediocre.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-12-2010, 02:05 PM
I know for a fact the Broncos were favored to win against the Redskins in the Super Bowl and they lost by 45...

I don't know about the other two losses...

If Peyton Manning lost by 45...

Since when is 32=45?

vailpass
02-12-2010, 02:09 PM
Tell me about it. So far, I think I've only convinced three or four other people that Elway [contemptuous spit] was mediocre.

Only 3 or 4? Hell you almost had me convinced; I looked away from your eyes just in time.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-12-2010, 02:11 PM
It's funny that people forget that before Denver beat Green Bay there was a 13 year period where the NFC beat the AFC every time.

Over that 13 year period, the following teams won SBs

SF: 4x
Dallas: 3x
Washington: 2x
Green Bay: 1x
NYG: 2x
Chicago: 1x

The NFC was so much more talented than the AFC during that period that it was ridiculous. The only comparison you could really make along today's standards would be the gap between the Western and Eastern conference in the NBA from '99-2007.

During that same period, here were the victory margins of those Super Bowls:

22, 36, 19, 32, 4, 45, 1, 13, 35, 17, 23, 10, 14.

Of 13 games, two were close. That's the entire reason why Tagliabue pushed for parity so hard beginning in the middle of the 90s.

Short Leash Hootie
02-12-2010, 02:52 PM
Since when is 32=45?

for some reason I thought the final score of that game was 55-10...

Regardless.

Garcia Bronco
02-12-2010, 03:02 PM
Elway's best statistical season - 3535 yards, 55.8% completion, 27 TD's, 11 INT's. Career passer rating of 79.9. 300 TD's, 226 INT's.

Peyton and Marino destroy him statistically.

Montana's got more rings.

Using whatever criteria you want, Elway = Not the GOAT.

And Elway is better than Marino and Manning. I'll listen to the Joe Montana arguments.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-12-2010, 03:04 PM
for some reason I thought the final score of that game was 55-10...

Regardless.

SB XXIV was.

Garcia Bronco
02-12-2010, 03:06 PM
LMAO Big John Elway victimized KC for so long that some of you are left with permanent butt hurt.
Your anger is a testament to his greatness.

this. Every time they bad mouth him I think...Good Job HorseFace...they still aren't over it.

Garcia Bronco
02-12-2010, 03:10 PM
The reason I take Montana is because if you put a gun to my head and tell me I've got to pick one guy to win a game for me, I'm taking Montana over Elway. With Elway you thought he might do something great to win the game, or could do it, but he didn't put the fear into you the same way Montana did, in my opinion.

You are talking about the same guy...literally.

Short Leash Hootie
02-12-2010, 03:15 PM
SB XXIV was.

so the dude loses all these Super Bowls by all of these points and people think he's the best QB ever?

I was too young to remember these games and I'm sure the 49ers were way better than the Broncos in the first place...

but sounds like a pretty big double standard to me...

and his 2nd Super Bowl win...I'm thinking he's lucky the Falcons upset the Vikings in the NFC Championship game.

Either way...

Elway lost 3 Super Bowls by considerable margins...one of which the Broncos were favored to win...(not sure about the other two)...

blaise
02-12-2010, 04:16 PM
It's funny that people forget that before Denver beat Green Bay there was a 13 year period where the NFC beat the AFC every time.

Over that 13 year period, the following teams won SBs

SF: 4x
Dallas: 3x
Washington: 2x
Green Bay: 1x
NYG: 2x
Chicago: 1x

The NFC was so much more talented than the AFC during that period that it was ridiculous. The only comparison you could really make along today's standards would be the gap between the Western and Eastern conference in the NBA from '99-2007.

During that same period, here were the victory margins of those Super Bowls:

22, 36, 19, 32, 4, 45, 1, 13, 35, 17, 23, 10, 14.

Of 13 games, two were close. That's the entire reason why Tagliabue pushed for parity so hard beginning in the middle of the 90s.

I don't get your point here, unless you're saying that Elway had an easier route to his Super Bowls than Montana did.

vailpass
02-12-2010, 05:21 PM
so the dude loses all these Super Bowls by all of these points and people think he's the best QB ever?

I was too young to remember these games and I'm sure the 49ers were way better than the Broncos in the first place...

but sounds like a pretty big double standard to me...

and his 2nd Super Bowl win...I'm thinking he's lucky the Falcons upset the Vikings in the NFC Championship game.

Either way...

Elway lost 3 Super Bowls by considerable margins...one of which the Broncos were favored to win...(not sure about the other two)...

Well done Hootie. Your streak of stupid posts remains intact with no threat of it ending anywhere in sight.

Dylan
02-12-2010, 06:36 PM
"In the biggest sporting event in the world, with a record number of people watching and on the game's most important play, a black defensive back outsmarted a beloved white quarterback." ... Jason Whitlock

ROFL

Dylan
02-12-2010, 06:44 PM
Over that 13 year period, the following teams won SBs

SF: 4x
Dallas: 3x
Washington: 2x
Green Bay: 1x
NYG: 2x
Chicago: 1x

The Giants won three ... no?

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee296/jco4o1/3Lombardi.png

let me go round up the gang & go watch asscar ...

it should be a hoot -- it's Daletona baby!!

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-12-2010, 07:17 PM
Dylan, recheck that period.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-12-2010, 07:20 PM
I don't get your point here, unless you're saying that Elway had an easier route to his Super Bowls than Montana did.

The point is that you can't blame Elway for losing those SBs when the NFC was overwhelmingly better than the AFC during that time.

4 of the best teams in NFL history: 84' 9ers, 85 Bears, '89 9ers, and '92 Cowboys came in less than a decade from one conference.

To me, Montana/Elway is a 1-1a situation. But no matter how good, one player can't beat a great team in football.

Hell, Jordan lost to the '86 Celtics putting up 63. Why? Because the second option was Orlando fucking Woolridge.

Dylan
02-12-2010, 07:55 PM
Dylan, recheck that period.


Hamas,

I knew something was wrong when I noticed "13."

More than that -- You always extract the most relevant, accurate data.

I enjoy reading your posts -- it provides a wealth of information

Thanks for noticing!