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Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 03:20 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/9909/revisiting-the-jared-allen-trade

Bill Williamson

The image of a purple-clad Jared Allen celebrating over fallen quarterbacks can’t be fun for Kansas City Chiefs fans. (NFC North blogger Kevin Seifert took a look at the Allen deal from the Vikings' perspective.)

They were used to seeing the mulleted one celebrating sacks as a Chief. Since Allen was traded to the Minnesota Vikings in 2008, the Chiefs have been listless on defense.

But two seasons into the blockbuster trade, it is not necessarily fair to say Kansas City was a loser in the trade.

Kansas City sent Allen and a sixth-round draft pick in 2008 for the No. 17 overall pick, two third-round picks and a sixth-round pick. Kansas City turned the picks into tackle Branden Albert, running back Jamaal Charles, safety DaJuan Morgan and sixth-round pick Kevin Robinson. The Vikings turned the Chiefs’ sixth-round pick into center John Sullivan.

“Kansas City really can’t worry about what Allen is doing in Minnesota and that Sullivan is a starter,” Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. said. “The Chiefs knew Allen was going to be good in Minnesota. But they didn’t want to pay him so they got very good value. That’s why the trade was good. It was a good trade because the value was good. Let’s see what Kansas City is going to do with it. It still can be a very good trade for the Chiefs.”

The following is a look at the key aspects of the trade two seasons later:

Jamaal Charles: Charles is the key player in the deal from the Chiefs’ perspective. If he can build upon his fantastic finish in 2009, this trade will be great for Kansas City.

Charles was taken with the first of the two third-rounders the Chiefs got from Minnesota. The speedster ran for 1,120 yards after taking over as the starter in November, including 259 yards in the season finale against Denver. He averaged a whopping 5.9 yards per carry for the season and represents hope for Kansas City’s offense.

“I still think Kansas City needs to pick up a 230-pound back to run the ball 10 times to keep Charles fresh, but he looks like the real deal,” Williamson said. “He can be special. If Charles can get better and become a legit 1,500-yard back, then the Chiefs will really have something. It looks promising.”

Branden Albert: Albert was expected to be the centerpiece of this trade because he was the No. 15 overall pick (the Chiefs swapped the No. 17 pick to Detroit), but he has been slow to get his career going.

Albert, who has dealt with injuries, has been inconsistent at left tackle. Many league observers believe Albert will excel at either right tackle or left guard. The Chiefs might select a left tackle with the No. 5 pick in the 2010 draft and then move Albert to right tackle. Or, when Brian Waters (who turns 33 on Feb. 18) retires, Albert could move to left guard -- the position he played in college. Williamson thinks Albert could be a near-Pro Bowl-caliber guard.

Jared Allen posted a career-high 15.5 sacks in his final season in Kansas City.

If Kansas City does find a new left tackle and Albert plays right tackle in 2010, he should improve and be a solid contributor.

The Chiefs do miss Allen: There is no doubt Kansas City misses the talented Allen, but it was clear they would. He is a special pass-rusher.

Allen had 14.5 sacks in each of his seasons in Minnesota. He had 43 sacks in his four seasons in Kansas City, and the Chiefs have had little pass-rush presence since Allen was traded. In 2008, in fact, Kansas City set a record for the fewest sacks in a season with 10.

“The Chiefs don’t have a pass rush without Allen,” said Gary Horton of Scouts Inc. “They lost a lot by giving him up. Special, game-changing pass-rushers, which he is, are difficult to lose. They miss him, there’s no doubt.”

He wouldn’t fit Kansas City’s defense right now: Ironically, Allen wouldn’t be a great fit for the current Chiefs scheme. He was traded before the final season of the Carl Peterson-Herm Edwards era.

Last year, when Scott Pioli took over as general manager and hired Todd Haley as coach, Kansas City moved from a 4-3 defense to a 3-4 scheme. Allen wouldn’t have had an obvious position in the 3-4, a problem the Chiefs also encountered with defensive lineman Glenn Dorsey and linebacker Derrick Johnson.

“He’d be a total waste in Kansas City’s new scheme,” Williamson said. “He is not a 3-4 guy. He’s a classic 4-3 guy. So, it’s funny; Allen wouldn’t be right for the Chiefs. Maybe they would have stuck to a 4-3 if he stayed.”

Conclusion: By no means does this trade seem like a disaster for Kansas City. Yes, Minnesota is tickled with the deal and it should be. Allen is a great player.

But if Charles and Albert become solid fixtures in the offense, the deal will be good for Kansas City. It’d be nice if Morgan (whom the previous Kansas City regime loved as a rookie) bounces back from a poor second season and becomes a solid contributor, the trade will even be better. Robinson was cut as a rookie.

“On paper, it was a good trade then for Kansas City and it still can be very good,” Horton said. “Allen was going to be a good player on a bad team. The Chiefs needed to get younger. They seem to be on the right track with this trade.”

Ari Chi3fs
02-13-2010, 03:22 PM
Fuck you Flopnuts.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 03:22 PM
In a way, Allen was the sacrificial lamb to get Carl out of town.

He's our own personal Jesus Christ.

LaChapelle
02-13-2010, 03:23 PM
You know a guy who goes and runs with the bulls in spain
while trying to get his contract renewed may not want to be there

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 03:24 PM
Fuck you Flopnuts.

I didn't write the article. I'd take Jared over Charles, Albert, Cassel, and Pioli at this point. The dude WAS Kansas City. There's no way AFAIC for us to ever win that trade.

wild1
02-13-2010, 03:24 PM
Who gives a s*** for the one millionth time

wild1
02-13-2010, 03:25 PM
I'd take Jared over Charles, Albert, Cassel, and Pioli at this point.

:spock: :rolleyes:

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 03:25 PM
Who gives a s*** for the one millionth time

:spock: :rolleyes:

LMAO Looks like you do.

Over-Head
02-13-2010, 03:26 PM
It was as brilliant as Al giving Jafatazz 63 Mill LMAO

wild1
02-13-2010, 03:30 PM
LMAO Looks like you do.

I'm laughing at some moran who thinks Allen is worth all three of the Chiefs best players combined and a transition back to the Carl era

Guessing you didn't see the second half of the season this year and/or the playoffs where he was all but invisible

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 03:30 PM
I didn't write the article. I'd take Jared over Charles, Albert, Cassel, and Pioli at this point. The dude WAS Kansas City. There's no way AFAIC for us to ever win that trade.

I agree. Can you imagine a defensive line with Allen/Dorsey/Tank/Hali. Throw in Flowers and Carr on the defense. People forget that this defense was actually pretty good in Allen's last year as a Chief, and that was with no help at the DT position.

I will never forgive the way Carl Peterson ran him out of town and it only makes me wonder how many good players he shooed away because of similarly sleazy negotiation tactics.

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 03:31 PM
I will say this, Williamson is absolutely right that Allen wouldn't fit in this defense. I wonder what Pioli would've done had that trade not happened. Would he have traded KC's favorite son? Would he have just stayed with the 4-3 defense?

I won't forgive this until we win a Super Bowl. Then I'll forget all about it.

Chocolate Hog
02-13-2010, 03:33 PM
How many playoff games did Jarred Allen win for the Chiefs again?

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 03:33 PM
I will say this, Williamson is absolutely right that Allen wouldn't fit in this defense. I wonder what Pioli would've done had that trade not happened. Would he have traded KC's favorite son? Would he have just stayed with the 4-3 defense?

I won't forgive this until we win a Super Bowl. Then I'll forget all about it.

He'd fit at least as well as Hali.

Truth is there are not many 3-4 OLBs who are good in coverage.

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 03:39 PM
He'd fit at least as well as Hali.

Truth is there are not many 3-4 OLBs who are good in coverage.

It'd be interesting to see him in that role. I don't know, I'm not that emotionally tied to it. What's done is done. And I care ten times more about the team than any one player. It's a shame though to lose a guy that fit so well with the city and it's fans. Them's the breaks.

Chocolate Hog
02-13-2010, 03:39 PM
He'd fit at least as well as Hali.

Truth is there are not many 3-4 OLBs who are good in coverage.

If you want to know how Allen would play in a 3-4 just watch Kampman who sucked.

wild1
02-13-2010, 03:41 PM
Oh, and your and ****ing idiot for saying Matt Cassel is one of the 3 best players on this team. Your opinions just became irrelevant.

A quarterback, a left tackle, a running back who would have been in the pro bowl if he'd started the whole season, and a GM who was named the professional sports executive of the decade. You think Jared Allen is worth more than all of that?

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 03:44 PM
If you want to know how Allen would play in a 3-4 just watch Kampman who sucked.

Except Allen is a hell of a lot better than Kampman.

Do you seriously think Allen wouldn't have made Hali look like a chump playing the same role last year?

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 03:46 PM
A quarterback, a left tackle, a running back who would have been in the pro bowl if he'd started the whole season, and a GM who was named the professional sports executive of the decade. You think Jared Allen is worth more than all of that?

Until they win, none of that matters. And what if the QB looks like he did this year for the next 3? That alone would have us screwed. The GM may, or may not be worth his weight in salt. Let's see what he does without BB. The left tackle may have to be shifted to another part of the line. The RB looks pretty money.

I'd take the best DE in the game over a rising RB superstar and a bunch of question marks yes.

We start winning, and I'll change my mind in a heartbeat. And you have my apologies for those remarks. I don't normally respond to the personal attacks that way. Not my style.

wild1
02-13-2010, 04:02 PM
Until they win, none of that matters. And what if the QB looks like he did this year for the next 3? That alone would have us screwed. The GM may, or may not be worth his weight in salt. Let's see what he does without BB. The left tackle may have to be shifted to another part of the line. The RB looks pretty money.

I'd take the best DE in the game over a rising RB superstar and a bunch of question marks yes.

We start winning, and I'll change my mind in a heartbeat. And you have my apologies for those remarks. I don't normally respond to the personal attacks that way. Not my style.

The top bid for Allen was a 1st and a 2nd. The players you name were a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then you add in a coveted executive.

If you look at this season, statistically Allen had another big year... 14.5 sacks, forced a few fumbles. Not bad at all. That will make you a lot of money.

If you break it down, he got 4.5 sacks in one game against Green bay and 3 sacks in the other. In the first game, Green Bay's starting left tackle (a pro bowler last year) was inactive, and his replacement (who normally plays guard) left the game with a knee injury. Allen did play against Clifton in the second game and played well, but regardless, half his sacks this year were piled up in two games against the team that ranked dead last this year in sacks allowed. #32 of 32. Allen had 7 sacks in the other 14 games - respectable, but not world-beating.

He didn't do much in the second half of the year and in the postseason. If he hadn't played in Green Bay's division we might be talking about how Allen fell off this year.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 04:03 PM
LOL....I love people that tear down Allen by breaking down his sack numbers.

He has 45 in three years. Has anyone else done that?

Sacks ALWAYS come in bunches. DT's sacks came in bunches. He's in the fucking HOF.

Don't tear down Allen to make the trade look better.

bandwagonjumper
02-13-2010, 04:06 PM
It may have been at best an okay trade for the Chiefs but it was a great trade for the Vikings. A great pass rusher and a starting center. Still Chiefs one, Vikings zero.

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 04:07 PM
The top bid for Allen was a 1st and a 2nd. The players you name were a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then you add in a coveted executive.

If you look at this season, statistically Allen had another big year... 14.5 sacks, forced a few fumbles. Not bad at all. That will make you a lot of money.

If you break it down, he got 4.5 sacks in one game against Green bay and 3 sacks in the other. In the first game, Green Bay's starting left tackle (a pro bowler last year) was inactive, and his replacement (who normally plays guard) left the game with a knee injury. Allen did play against Clifton in the second game and played well, but regardless, half his sacks this year were piled up in two games against the team that ranked dead last this year in sacks allowed. #32 of 32. Allen had 7 sacks in the other 14 games - respectable, but not world-beating.

He didn't do much in the second half of the year and in the postseason. If he hadn't played in Green Bay's division we might be talking about how Allen fell off this year.

None of that really matters though, because he could've done better or worse on this team. I understand what you're saying, all I'm saying is it's normally a pretty bad idea to trade the best DE in the game as he's going into his prime. It's probably the most coveted position on the field outside of your QB.

I am glad to know that the trade has the potential to take us to a Super Bowl championship. But potential doesn't mean jack shit until it's realized. I will question this trade until we get there. And I seriously question whether we will with Matt Cassel as our QB. I've NEVER been a fan of that move.

I'm not a doom and gloom fan. I'm eternally optimistic. However, that doesn't mean I won't be asking a lot of questions about moves we make until we get there. This is the most glaring one of them all, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the current regime.

wild1
02-13-2010, 04:08 PM
LOL....I love people that tear down Allen by breaking down his sack numbers.

He has 45 in three years. Has anyone else done that?

Sacks ALWAYS come in bunches. DT's sacks came in bunches. He's in the ****ing HOF.

Don't tear down Allen to make the trade look better.

I've no interest in defending the trade. I simply stated a fact, that Allen has a tendency to disappear. He did very little in the second half of this year, or after the second Green Bay game which was somewhere near midseason.

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 04:08 PM
And Cassel had zero to do with this trade. Remove Cassel, and input DeJuan Morgan.

Gadzooks
02-13-2010, 04:09 PM
Any DC worth a shit can find a use for Allen in any kind of D alignment but this was aboot money.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 04:12 PM
I've no interest in defending the trade. I simply stated a fact, that Allen has a tendency to disappear. He did very little in the second half of this year, or after the second Green Bay game which was somewhere near midseason.

Just because a guy is not racking up sacks does not mean he is disappearing. Only three defensive ends had more quarterback pressures than Jared Allen. He led the Vikings in tackles for loss.

He's a great fucking football player.

Deberg_1990
02-13-2010, 04:12 PM
People forget that this defense was actually pretty good in Allen's last year as a Chief

Dude, they only won 4 games. How good could they have been really??

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 04:17 PM
Dude, they only won 4 games. How good could they have been really??

Oops, you're right. My bad.

wild1
02-13-2010, 04:25 PM
Just because a guy is not racking up sacks does not mean he is disappearing. Only three defensive ends had more quarterback pressures than Jared Allen. He led the Vikings in tackles for loss.

He's a great ****ing football player.

Never said he wasn't. I just said he didn't do much the second half of this season.

wild1
02-13-2010, 04:25 PM
Dude, they only won 4 games. How good could they have been really??

The last time the Chiefs had a good defense was in the previous century.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 04:38 PM
Never said he wasn't. I just said he didn't do much the second half of this season.

Because he had only four sacks?

Did you even watch the Vikings?

milkman
02-13-2010, 04:41 PM
What's done is done.

Move on.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 04:43 PM
He'd fit at least as well as Hali.

Truth is there are not many 3-4 OLBs who are good in coverage.

Allen doesn't play his responsibilities well. Can be tolerated as a 4-3 DE when the DE is a very good pass rusher. It cannot be tolerated by a OLB in the 3-4. Oh, and Hali is a sideline to sideline defender who is more athletic and moves better laterally. Hali is better in coverage, and has a better vertical, which is handy in zone coverages.

So, in summary, no he wouldn't fit as well as Hali. Not even close.

HotRoute
02-13-2010, 04:43 PM
truth is the guy wanted out, thats that. we got good picks for him (1st and two 3rd's) but forgot we had an idiot making those picks. so . . . .

HotRoute
02-13-2010, 04:48 PM
What's done is done.

Move on.

this, no reason to cry over spilled milk.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 04:50 PM
Oh, and Hali is a sideline to sideline defender who is more athletic and moves better laterally.

ROFL

Mr. Flopnuts
02-13-2010, 04:51 PM
Allen doesn't play his responsibilities well. Can be tolerated as a 4-3 DE when the DE is a very good pass rusher. It cannot be tolerated by a OLB in the 3-4. Oh, and Hali is a sideline to sideline defender who is more athletic and moves better laterally. Hali is better in coverage, and has a better vertical, which is handy in zone coverages.

So, in summary, no he wouldn't fit as well as Hali. Not even close.

Whoa.

Gadzooks
02-13-2010, 04:52 PM
IMO it was a positive article for the Chiefs. For every time they mentioned how great Allen is, they mentioned how it was all aboot the money and at least you got something.:bravo:

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 04:53 PM
Except Allen is a hell of a lot better than Kampman.

Do you seriously think Allen wouldn't have made Hali look like a chump playing the same role last year?

No. He wouldn't have. See the thing that you don't get is what makes Allen good as a DE is his strength and ability to shed blocks. In a straight line, he is nearly as fast as Hali. However, laterally, Hali puts him to shame.

As I said all last offseason, Hali fits the defense perfectly. Allen doesn't. Not even close. Allen would be pointless in this scheme.

Now, the Chiefs may have elected to stay with a 4-3. But, if they didn't, Allen would be without a position. He would have been traded last year..... and the Chiefs probably wouldn't have gotten the same value.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 04:55 PM
See the thing that you don't get is what makes Allen good as a DE is his strength and ability to shed blocks. In a straight line, he is nearly as fast as Hali. However, laterally, Hali puts him to shame.


LMAO.

Have you ever seen Hali attempt to change directions?

This is just ludicrous. You don't get 45 sacks in three years by being a one-trick pony.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 04:55 PM
ROFL

Last offseason, I was telling everyone that Hali was a perfect fit for this defense. I believe you were one of the ones that was laughing then. I can't help the fact that you don't know what you are looking at when it comes to football players.

Now, if it were Allen or Hali as a DE.... Allen all day everyday. As an OLB in the 3-4. Hali, and ANY one who had any clue as to what they were looking at.... would see that easily.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 04:59 PM
LMAO.

Have you ever seen Hali attempt to change directions?

This is just ludicrous. You don't get 45 sacks in three years by being a one-trick pony.

You are a fool to argue. But, I will indulge your ignorance.

I never said Allen was a one trick pony. He has a good inside move, a good spin move, and is strong enough to bull rush. You line him up on a tackle, and he is better.

If you line Hali up on a tackle, he has shorter arms, he doesn't have the strength and he can't shed the blocks.

Two different players. Two different bodies. Two different talents.

I can't make you understand what you can't comprehend.

But, we will just agree to disagree.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 04:59 PM
Whoa.

I would rather have a 4-3 with Allen. But, I don't think Pioli was staying with the 4-3 regardless of who was here.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 04:59 PM
Last offseason, I was telling everyone that Hali was a perfect fit for this defense. I believe you were one of the ones that was laughing then. I can't help the fact that you don't know what you are looking at when it comes to football players.

Now, if it were Allen or Hali as a DE.... Allen all day everyday. As an OLB in the 3-4. Hali, and ANY one who had any clue as to what they were looking at.... would see that easily.

He got abused in the run game. He's hardly a perfect fit.

It's really hilarious you think Hali is more athletic than Allen, though. Funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Watch Hali run some time. He is PAINFUL to watch if he has to pursue anyone.

BossChief
02-13-2010, 05:01 PM
Dude, they only won 4 games. How good could they have been really??
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2006&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

In 2006 and 2007 we were ranked #16 and then #13 in overall defense, if we added Dorsey, Flowers and Carr to that defense it becomes studly.

right or wrong?

Add to that we would have walked into a great OLT class this year if we passed on the trade and one has to stomp his foot a bit to think we could have had Oher instead of Jackson and kept Jared.....:mad:

The last few years have been permafukd

Fish
02-13-2010, 05:06 PM
:facepalm: X 1000

milkman
02-13-2010, 05:06 PM
He got abused in the run game. He's hardly a perfect fit.

It's really hilarious you think Hali is more athletic than Allen, though. Funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Watch Hali run some time. He is PAINFUL to watch if he has to pursue anyone.

While I think that Sensible(Ha!) is right about the fit (Hali is better suited for this defense) his perception of Hali's overall game is skewed entirely too high.

milkman
02-13-2010, 05:07 PM
:facepalm: X 1000

Zactly.

the Talking Can
02-13-2010, 05:15 PM
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2006&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

In 2006 and 2007 we were ranked #16 and then #13 in overall defense, if we added Dorsey, Flowers and Carr to that defense it becomes studly.

right or wrong?

Add to that we would have walked into a great OLT class this year if we passed on the trade and one has to stomp his foot a bit to think we could have had Oher instead of Jackson and kept Jared.....:mad:

The last few years have been permafukd

just to clarify, the link you provided shows us 16th in yards per game...there is no overall stat...we were 11 in points allowed, etc...you can sort each column by clicking on it, you were showing a sort for yards per game

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2010, 05:36 PM
If we hadn't traded Allen we would have switched to the 3-4 anyway.

Mecca
02-13-2010, 05:56 PM
If Allen was still here we'd still be playing 3-4 and he'd have spent the year looking like Aaron Kampan did in Green Bay, misused and out of place.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 05:58 PM
While I think that Sensible(Ha!) is right about the fit (Hali is better suited for this defense) his perception of Hali's overall game is skewed entirely too high.

This isn't to say that Hali is a pro bowl player. I am not saying that. I am merely stating that Hali fits this defense much better than Allen.

And, this is the perfect defense for Hali. I have said that since last offseason.

It takes advantage of his strengths which are quickness, athleticsm and tenacity and limits his weaknesses... which are his struggle to shed blocks, his short arms, and his tendancy to play too high without leverage.

Allen is a great talent, and I would trade Hali for Allen any day.... so long as the Chiefs were going back to a 4-3.

Mecca
02-13-2010, 05:59 PM
This being the "perfect defense" for Hali kind of speaks to how low his ceiling and upside always have been.

Gadzooks
02-13-2010, 06:18 PM
If Allen was still here we'd still be playing 3-4 and he'd have spent the year looking like Aaron Kampan did in Green Bay, misused and out of place.

I disagree. Any DC worth a shit could have utilized Allen in their D as a rusher.
Comparing him to Kampman is delusional.

Mecca
02-13-2010, 06:20 PM
I disagree. Any DC worth a shit could have utilized Allen in their D as a rusher.
Comparing him to Kampman is delusional.

Kampman put up some really big years...then found himself playing OLB and being completely out of place doing it.

Allen has no place in that defense either.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 06:24 PM
This being the "perfect defense" for Hali kind of speaks to how low his ceiling and upside always have been.

It is funny to hear guys bash on a 8 sack a year kind of guy. I am not saying he will be a HOF player, but the kid isn't a scrub either. He was a mid first round pick that has panned out well.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Kampman put up some really big years...then found himself playing OLB and being completely out of place doing it.

Allen has no place in that defense either.

Allen has more ability than Kampman. Of course, Kampman is a better team defender and doesn't feelance as much. Allen would have been sitting next to DJ.

Gadzooks
02-13-2010, 06:29 PM
Kampman put up some really big years...then found himself playing OLB and being completely out of place doing it.

Allen has no place in that defense either.

That's not the point. Any decent DC who's creative enough to think outside of a pre-programmed 3-4 alignment would be able to utilize either Kampman or Allen as a rusher.
Do you think Buddy Ryan would’ve wasted that kind of talent by using a cookie cutter defense? (Rob Ryan might, Rex probably wouldn't)

Mecca
02-13-2010, 06:30 PM
That's not the point. Any decent DC who's creative enough to think outside of a pre-programmed 3-4 alignment would be able to utilize either Kampman or Allen as a rusher.
Do you think Buddy Ryan would’ve wasted that kind of talent by using a cookie cutter defense? (Rob Ryan might, Rex probably wouldn't)

And you think this team has that?

Gadzooks
02-13-2010, 06:40 PM
And you think this team has that?

Good point... Innovative coaches are extremely rare. It's amazing how inept most professional coaches are.
Typical coach’s mantra = “These are the rules. I must obey…”

Easy 6
02-13-2010, 07:15 PM
I've never once watched Kampman or Hali chase a RB or TE 30-40-60 yards downfield for the tackle, nor i have i ever watched them or any other DE for that matter, pull off tippy-toe fade route 2 point conversions.

Jared is a level of athleticism above both & like Zooks says, a top coach would find a role for Jared regardless of rigidly defined scheme... if Tamba can pick up OLB on the go, theres absolutely no question that JA could, IMO.

Personally, i'm ready to move on... Charles alone might yet justify the trade, throw in a surely improving Albert & this shouldnt be some big fiasco to look back on for the next 40 years.

2010 has already started, next.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 07:18 PM
I've never once watched Kampman or Hali chase a RB or TE 30-40-60 yards downfield for the tackle, nor i have i ever watched them or any other DE for that matter, pull off tippy-toe fade route 2 point conversions.

Jared is a level of athleticism above both & like Zooks says, a top coach would find a role for Jared regardless of rigidly defined scheme... if Tamba can pick up OLB on the go, theres absolutely no question that JA could, IMO.

Personally, i'm ready to move on... Charles alone might yet justify the trade, throw in a surely improving Albert & this shouldnt be some big fiasco to look back on for the next 40 years.

2010 has already started, next.

Hali has chased down many more backs and TE's than Jared ever has. It is amazing how the legend of Jared Allen has grown. Heck, at this rate, he may save more souls than Sanchez.

Easy 6
02-13-2010, 07:30 PM
Hali has chased down many more backs and TE's than Jared ever has. It is amazing how the legend of Jared Allen has grown. Heck, at this rate, he may save more souls than Sanchez.

First, i'm not knocking Hali, he has great 10-15 yard quicks, active hands, a nonstop motor, he's learning to drop into a zone, leverage... the finer points of the position, beyond 'get the QB' etc... but what? sideline to sideline, up & down the field, grace of movement & speed? if you're telling me that Hali or Kampman even approach JA's level of athleticism & speed... then theres nothing more to discuss.

Baconeater
02-13-2010, 07:33 PM
I find it funny that Floppy posted this thread right at 4:20.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 07:39 PM
truth is the guy wanted out, thats that. we got good picks for him (1st and two 3rd's) but forgot we had an idiot making those picks. so . . . .

Excuse me: An idiot?

So you DON'T like Brandon Albert or Jammal Charles?

Maybe if Pioli were around, we could have taken Cherilus in the first.

LMAO

SenselessChiefsFan
02-13-2010, 08:08 PM
First, i'm not knocking Hali, he has great 10-15 yard quicks, active hands, a nonstop motor, he's learning to drop into a zone, leverage... the finer points of the position, beyond 'get the QB' etc... but what? sideline to sideline, up & down the field, grace of movement & speed? if you're telling me that Hali or Kampman even approach JA's level of athleticism & speed... then theres nothing more to discuss.

I just disagree completely about what Allen is. Allen is a great pass rusher with his hand in the dirt. You stand him up off the ball and he isn't the same guy. For everything Hali isn't... he fits the 3-4 very well. He is a team defender. He is a solid assignment guy. He is many things that Allen just isn't. Allen is a great talent. Allen is a very good 4-3 end. Allen may even make the HOF some day. But, that will be because he has not had to switch to a 3-4.

Gadzooks
02-13-2010, 08:15 PM
I just disagree completely about what Allen is. Allen is a great pass rusher with his hand in the dirt. You stand him up off the ball and he isn't the same guy. For everything Hali isn't... he fits the 3-4 very well. He is a team defender. He is a solid assignment guy. He is many things that Allen just isn't. Allen is a great talent. Allen is a very good 4-3 end. Allen may even make the HOF some day. But, that will be because he has not had to switch to a 3-4.

I sturdily doubt they would've switched to a 3-4 if Allen was still there. Esp. since they'd just drafted Dorsey the previous draft.
"Round hole... Meet Square peg"

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2010, 08:30 PM
I sturdily doubt they would've switched to a 3-4 if Allen was still there. Esp. since they'd just drafted Dorsey the previous draft.
"Round hole... Meet Square peg"

Pioli would switch to the 3-4 if he had the fucking Steel Curtain.

notorious
02-13-2010, 08:39 PM
Pioli would switch to the 3-4 if he had the ****ing Steel Curtain.

Instead he switched to the 3-4 when he had the ****ing Meat Curtains.

BossChief
02-13-2010, 09:32 PM
just to clarify, the link you provided shows us 16th in yards per game...there is no overall stat...we were 11 in points allowed, etc...you can sort each column by clicking on it, you were showing a sort for yards per gameI used the wrong word, I meant total defense. My mistake. The point still stands.

We might not have an offense by now, but we sure would have a defense.

SenselessChiefsFan
02-14-2010, 05:54 AM
I sturdily doubt they would've switched to a 3-4 if Allen was still there. Esp. since they'd just drafted Dorsey the previous draft.
"Round hole... Meet Square peg"

I actually disagree. I think Pioli is the most comfortable with a 3-4, and I think the switch would have been made regardless.

Of course, had Allen not been traded, the Chiefs 'may' not have had such a poor record in 2008, and perhaps the Herm era would have continued. Kuharich would have likely succeeded CP had the Chiefs not done so poorly.

Then again, maybe Clark wanted a completely different direction, and was already in talks with Pioli over the last couple years and the trade of JA was just another step to get ready for Pioli's arrival. Not saying this is true, but I do wonder how long ago Clark started talking to Pioli about maybe coming to KC.

If JA were still here. If Pioli were hired, I think he would have been traded. And, at that point, I wonder if the Chiefs could have gotten any more value than they did.

DumbHillbillies
02-14-2010, 08:09 AM
In a way, Allen was the sacrificial lamb to get Carl out of town.

He's our own personal Jesus Christ.

I've always thought this. That's why the trade doesn't upset me too much anymore.

MahiMike
02-14-2010, 08:16 AM
Jamaal Charles > Jared Allen

TEX
02-14-2010, 08:39 AM
Jamaal Charles > Jared Allen

You're joking - right???

The VIKES got the better end of the deal. You just don't trade an elite / young pass rusher - EVER! You never let it get to the point that it did in the first place so you have no way out but to trade said player. However, the way I "justify" the trade is that it set a whole lot of things in motion and the Chiefs will be better off in the long run. Had it not happend the way it did, Carl and Herm could likely still be in KC. ANYTHING is BETTER than that.

BigMeatballDave
02-14-2010, 09:05 AM
I didn't write the article. I'd take Jared over Charles, Albert, Cassel, and Pioli at this point. The dude WAS Kansas City. There's no way AFAIC for us to ever win that trade.We sucked WITH Jared. Seriously, what difference does it make? I like Charles and Albert.

BigMeatballDave
02-14-2010, 09:07 AM
Jesus. I wish this horse would just die so some of you will stop beating it...

Sure-Oz
02-14-2010, 09:10 AM
wow another thread? good lord who gives a fuck

BigMeatballDave
02-14-2010, 09:32 AM
wow another thread? good lord who gives a fuckThis. I understand being upset when the trade happened, but its been 3 yrs. Get the fuck over it already...

DBOSHO
02-14-2010, 09:49 AM
Youll all thank carl when jamaal rushes for 2000 yds next year

Halfcan
02-14-2010, 10:13 AM
In a way, Allen was the sacrificial lamb to get Carl out of town.

He's our own personal Jesus Christ.

ROFL

Mr. Flopnuts
02-14-2010, 11:42 AM
wow another thread? good lord who gives a fuck

This. I understand being upset when the trade happened, but its been 3 yrs. Get the fuck over it already...

Jesus Christ guys, it's a fucking ESPN article. It's not like I started the 1300th thread just to bash the deal. Don't click the fucking link. It's pretty simple.