PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs Michael Ash talks about the effect the T-Jack pick has on this year's draft.


Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 05:48 PM
http://kan.scout.com/2/946250.html

The Super Bowl is behind us and the offseason is underway, which means it’s time to start turning our attention towards the 2010 NFL draft.

Of course, for most Chiefs fans who’ve suffered through a four-win season, the draft has already been a heavy topic of discussion for several months. But since the NFL’s annual scouting combine is set to kick off in two weeks, the issue is about to officially take center stage.

Unfortunately, unlike most years, I can’t say I’m looking forward to it all that much. Because of the precedent the Chiefs set a year ago in drafting Tyson Jackson, many attempts at rational draft discussion are going to be heaved out the window over the coming months.

Going into the last draft, few if any considered Jackson a viable candidate to be taken with the third overall pick. While word leaked out about a day beforehand that a few 3-4 teams had a higher view of Jackson than most, even then many assumed the talk to be nothing more than pre-draft smokescreens and posturing.

A few days before last year’s draft, I put together a piece on the Chiefs’ top six prospects that incorporated the rankings of football’s best-known draftniks – ESPN’s Mel Kiper Jr., Todd McShay, and the NFL Network’s Mike Mayock.

Out of the multiple draft outlets I used, only one analyst – Rick Gosselin of the Dallas Morning News – actually considered Jackson to be among the draft’s 10 best players. It was only because of his inclusion on Gosselin’s Top 10 that I even included Jackson among the list of potential Chiefs’ picks in my column.

This year, because the Chiefs took a player who nobody figured would be drafted that early, it’s nearly impossible to rule out anyone at the #5 spot. If you’ve been talking about the draft with your friends, you’ve probably had a conversation resembling this:<i>

“Hey, how about Alabama DT Terrence Cody with the fifth pick?”

“Well, most people have him falling into the second round now. Maybe we can grab him there.”

“Yeah, but he might be gone then. And he would fill a need at nose tackle. That’s important in a 3-4 defense, you know. I think they should take him.”

“Come on, they would be crazy to take him at #5.”

“You never know! They took Tyson Jackson!”</i>

In the past, when discussing what the Chiefs might do with their first pick, we were normally able to come to a consensus and narrow things down to a small handful of players. But the decision to take Jackson has blown the doors wide open.

Do you have a friend who wants the Chiefs to draft a tight end to replace Tony Gonzalez at #5? How about a guard? Or Tim Tebow? The decision to reach on Jackson makes almost any suggestion defensible. No matter how ridiculous your friend’s position may be, once he says “Nobody thinks they’ll take my guy, but nobody thought they’d take Jackson either,” the discussion is over and he’s won.

It’s going to be a difficult few months.

For our purposes here, though, we’re going to assume – perhaps “hope” is a better word – that the Chiefs resist the urge to shock us with their first selection. Several extremely talented players will be available at #5 without the need for a reach.

And let’s be honest – coming off three straight seasons with four wins or less, the Chiefs’ new regime can’t let doubt and disillusionment to start creeping in.

A year ago, after all the excitement and jubilation of hiring Scott Pioli, a lot of people came away from his first draft feeling a bit underwhelmed. It wasn’t just Jackson – more than a few things occurred on draft weekend that could make you go “hmm.” In time, Pioli may well have the last laugh on all of it. Nearly a year later, though, most of the decisions that were questioned back then aren’t looking much clearer today.

Despite those issues and some questionable decisions in free agency, many were content to give Pioli the benefit of the doubt. His first year was written off as an evaluation season where he simply tried to steady the ship while analyzing the many needs of the Chiefs’ roster. That’s all well and good, but we can all agree that the evaluation season has ended.

Now it’s time for Pioli to deliver.

Between the draft and free agency, if the upcoming offseason produces more of the same underwhelming reactions and overall confusion that last year’s did, it won’t mean the Chiefs made another round of bad decisions. But we just finished a season where several questionable moves didn’t pan out. It’s going to be hard to bite our tongues and hope that, this year, those types of decisions will suddenly start to pay dividends.

This year’s draft is going to be of critical importance – for Pioli, for the Chiefs, and for a fan base that hasn’t seen much to get excited about on the field for the last few years. And it all starts at pick #5.

Be sure to come back over the next two weeks as, from a Chiefs’ perspective, we’ll weigh the pros and cons of some of the draft’s top prospects.

Mecca
02-13-2010, 05:55 PM
This article is humorous, it basically says that "since Pioli made a major reach dipshit pick last year we can argue anything as fair game!"

tyler360
02-13-2010, 05:56 PM
I hate the term evaluation year. Lets waste a whole year. FUCK that.

Mecca
02-13-2010, 05:57 PM
I hate the term evaluation year. Lets waste a whole year. FUCK that.

It's just an easy excuse for a front office that shit it's pants in it's first offseason.

tyler360
02-13-2010, 05:57 PM
This article is humorous, it basically says that "since Pioli made a major reach dipshit pick last year we can argue anything as fair game!"

The sad thing is you can defend almost any pick by it. It is not comforting to know that this is directed toward the GM of the decade.

tyler360
02-13-2010, 06:05 PM
It's just an easy excuse for a front office that shit it's pants in it's first offseason.

That is why I hate it.

The executive of the century should not need a year off with his thumb up his ass. I am just mortified that people cannot see this. I am sure that the excuse train will be along shortly with the customary excuses like "not the right staff" or "he was hired too late in the game." Or my favorite "what do you know you are just on a message board."

LaChapelle
02-13-2010, 06:20 PM
We're absolutely fucking clueless
-$109.95

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 06:22 PM
That is why I hate it.

The executive of the century should not need a year off with his thumb up his ass. I am just mortified that people cannot see this. I am sure that the excuse train will be along shortly with the customary excuses like "not the right staff" or "he was hired too late in the game." Or my favorite "what do you know you are just on a message board."

Did they shit their pants their first season? Yes.

Are they doing things very, very different than they did last offseason? Yes.

I can understand people who hated the first season. I can't understand people who don't see how this year has POTENTIAL to be a lot better (strong emphasis on the word "potential")

Mecca
02-13-2010, 06:23 PM
Did they shit their pants their first season? Yes.

Are they doing things very, very different than they did last offseason? Yes.

I can understand people who hated the first season. I can't understand people who don't see how this year has POTENTIAL to be a lot better (strong emphasis on the word "potential")

What's different?

That now there are even less guys to sign?

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 06:29 PM
What's different?

That now there are even less guys to sign?

New Director of College Scouting. Completely different scouting team trained to evaluate on a 3-4 defense. And it sounds like a very aggressive scouting process that has flown scouts all over the country to watch a lot of games. From a scouting standpoint, there is going to be a lot different and a lot more aggressive in talent evaluation than we've ever seen in this franchise. We can be pissed off all we want about whether freezing scouts was a bad idea or not, but that's not going to affect the way we scout in 2010.

And we can argue all we want about whether the Chiefs were too cautious about making big moves early. That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to remain cautious past 2009.

Like I've said many times before, Pioli didn't do a good job in 2009. So right now, there are a lot of excuses. But if he and his staff get it right in 2010 and beyond (and I don't understand why there are many who believe this is 100% the case), then in the end, all we lost was one year. No big deal, in the grand scheme of things.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2010, 06:44 PM
I love that fucking football scouts supposedly aren't smart enough to know how to evaluate a 3-4 OLB vs a 4-3 DE. Based upon what, exactly?

"It takes a certain skill set"

And it doesn't take a certain fucking skill set to run Air Coryell vs. the WCO?

You know what the difference is there? Play calling and terminology, you dumb motherfuckers.

That is such a fucking bullshit cop out argument.

Count Zarth
02-13-2010, 06:56 PM
I love that fucking football scouts supposedly aren't smart enough to know how to evaluate a 3-4 OLB vs a 4-3 DE. Based upon what, exactly?

"It takes a certain skill set"

And it doesn't take a certain fucking skill set to run Air Coryell vs. the WCO?

You know what the difference is there? Play calling and terminology, you dumb motherfuckers.

That is such a fucking bullshit cop out argument.

Release yo anga

Fruit Ninja
02-13-2010, 07:07 PM
I hate the term evaluation year. Lets waste a whole year. **** that.

YOu can name it anything you choose, but everyone here and everyone in the Chiefs front office new thats what this was. It was like that last year, and this year since we changed the people in the Front office.

Like i said, name it whatever the fuck you want, 90 percent of all Chiefs fans expected the team to suck.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 07:26 PM
Like I've said many times before, Pioli didn't do a good job in 2009. So right now, there are a lot of excuses. But if he and his staff get it right in 2010 and beyond (and I don't understand why there are many who believe this is 100% the case), then in the end, all we lost was one year. No big deal, in the grand scheme of things.

No big deal?

How many seasons did the Saints recently throw away?

The Steelers? The Falcons? The Ravens? The Chargers?

It's fucking idiotic to "throw away" a season but apparently it's "okay" with you.

And to top it off, they "threw away" the 2009 draft. They could have loaded up on talent and instead, they had the Chiefs worst draft in decades.

And we're to believe that 2010 is going to be somehow different?

I won't believe it until I see it.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 07:29 PM
YOu can name it anything you choose, but everyone here and everyone in the Chiefs front office new thats what this was. It was like that last year, and this year since we changed the people in the Front office.

Like i said, name it whatever the fuck you want, 90 percent of all Chiefs fans expected the team to suck.

Bullshit.

90% of Chiefs fans didn't expect a winning record but they DID expect for this front office to be far more competent in terms of drafting, free agency and coaching hires.

Compare Scott Pioli's first year to Carl Peterson's first year.

Then get back to us.

milkman
02-13-2010, 07:29 PM
YOu can name it anything you choose, but everyone here and everyone in the Chiefs front office new thats what this was. It was like that last year, and this year since we changed the people in the Front office.

Like i said, name it whatever the **** you want, 90 percent of all Chiefs fans expected the team to suck.

That's the biggest load of crap excuse anyone can possibly make for last year.

What you are essentially saying is that Pioli and company are too fucking stupid to make evaluations from film study.

We knew we were going to suck, but we expected to see moves that would lead to eventual improvement.

We didn't see those moves, because Pioli and company are apparently to fucking stupid to use film study as a tool for evaluation.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 07:40 PM
No big deal?

How many seasons did the Saints recently throw away?

The Steelers? The Falcons? The Ravens? The Chargers?

It's ****ing idiotic to "throw away" a season but apparently it's "okay" with you.

And to top it off, they "threw away" the 2009 draft. They could have loaded up on talent and instead, they had the Chiefs worst draft in decades.

And we're to believe that 2010 is going to be somehow different?

I won't believe it until I see it.

Why is it idiotic?

Isn't the point to win a Super Bowl?

If it takes 5 years instead of 4, who the fuck cares?

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 07:43 PM
Why is it idiotic?

Isn't the point to win a Super Bowl?

If it takes 5 years instead of 4, who the fuck cares?

If Scott Pioli decided to sacrifice babies at halftime, you would justify it somehow.

The Mods need to change your name to ChiefBallWasher.

And furthermore, a Super Bowl is far from guaranteed.

Especially with last year's personnel transactions.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 07:46 PM
I love that ****ing football scouts supposedly aren't smart enough to know how to evaluate a 3-4 OLB vs a 4-3 DE. Based upon what, exactly?

"It takes a certain skill set"

And it doesn't take a certain ****ing skill set to run Air Coryell vs. the WCO?

You know what the difference is there? Play calling and terminology, you dumb mother****ers.

That is such a ****ing bullshit cop out argument.

Chuck Cook's scouts spent an entire year evaluating 4-3 players. Do you think they had a lot of "tweeners" on their radar? Do you think these scouts were paying close attention to how well a DE like Brian Orakpo will play in coverage, which he would be asked to do a lot in a 3-4? Do you think they'd have any idea what makes a successful nose tackle? A mammoth who can take on 3 blockers at once? How much do you think they know about what makes a good 2-gap DE?

Hamas, you're better than this. 3-4 players have entirely different skill sets than a 4-3. You're evaluating totally different players. I guarantee that the top nose tackles, 5-techniques, and most 3-4 OLBs weren't even close to being on the Chiefs' radar.

I don't think he should have frozen out Cook's scouts. And I'm not a fan of the 2009 draft. But to say that the evaluation doesn't have potential to be a lot better now that we have scouts dedicated year-round to evaluating for a 3-4 who can be involved with the process from scouting to combine to draft, led by an entirely different Director of College Scouting, with the input from 3 coaches who have a very, very firm concept of exactly what they want to do on defense/offense is just crazy.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 07:48 PM
If Scott Pioli decided to sacrifice babies at halftime, you would justify it somehow.

The Mods need to change your name to ChiefBallWasher.

And furthermore, a Super Bowl is far from guaranteed.

Especially with last year's personnel transactions.

I've been very critical of this front office.

I just don't see the need to hang the guys on ropes based on their first season.

If he has a shitty 2010, that's a totally different story.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 07:52 PM
of exactly what they want to do on defense/offense is just crazy.

It's crazy that you can defend the GM of the Millenium while at the same time, dismiss Chuck Cook and the other scouts being incapable of recognizing talent.

Furthermore, Bob Gretz confirmed EXACTLY what I said last April: Pioli threw out EVERYTHING that Chuck Cook and his staff compiled and used information obtained by his scouting department in New England.

So once again, your dog don't hunt.

milkman
02-13-2010, 07:52 PM
I've been very critical of this front office.

I just don't see the need to hang the guys on ropes based on their first season.

If he has a shitty 2010, that's a totally different story.

Critical, my ass.

You're a fucking Pioli tool.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 07:54 PM
I've been very critical of this front office.

I just don't see the need to hang the guys on ropes based on their first season.

If he has a shitty 2010, that's a totally different story.

You're being intellectually dishonest.

If one is to use the 2009 season as indicator of future personnel moves, how can that person have a positive outlook for 2010?

You're "hoping". You have no proof and no factual basis.

Rainbows and unicorns.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2010, 08:01 PM
I hate to break this to you, zilla, but apparently it didn't matter what Cook's scouts did because Pioli froze them out anyway and relied on the information of a guy who got fired from a team with a horrendous recent drafting record.

Compound that with the fact that the scheme excuse doesn't mean anything for evaluating offensive players, nor does it cover the ass of the fact that last year was a great year for offensive talent and this year for defensive talent, and yet, just like the dumb fucking scheme we tried to implement, we tried to force the issue on both sides by drafting counter to the value of the board, and utilizing our own personnel counter to their best values.

Furthermore, the FO only had two picks in the entire draft that were even germane to the differences of the 3-4, and one of them was in the top of the first round, where every prospect has a fucking Dostoevsky-length novel on their strengths and weaknesses, and the other was a redundant backup.

Of course, the 3.5 months between Pioli's hire and the draft also obviated any ability of the scouts to gauge players for the 3-4, and they canceled the 2009 Senior Bowl and Combine, so they didn't have that to go on either. Compounding that tragedy was the fact that all videotape of the entire 2009 college football season was destroyed by a plague of locusts.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 08:05 PM
Critical, my ass.

You're a ****ing Pioli tool.

I have not defended very many of Pioli's moves. I don't have any opinion on Pioli. Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of his version of the 3-4, but I'm willing to wait it out.

But I think he deserves time to prove me wrong. Just as I gave Cassel every benefit before he proved me wrong, I think Pioli deserves at least 2010 before I can have an opinion.

I'm not a Pioli tool. Just extremely opposed to people who have the ridiculous opinion that the first season is a true measure of every single thing you can do in your entire career.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2010, 08:06 PM
At this point, Pioli could turn off the Ghostbusters' laser containment system and 90% of the board would defend it as a just and necessary move.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 08:10 PM
You're being intellectually dishonest.

If one is to use the 2009 season as indicator of future personnel moves, how can that person have a positive outlook for 2010?

You're "hoping". You have no proof and no factual basis.

Rainbows and unicorns.

And I'm pointing out that 2009 may not be an indicator of future personnel moves because they were made with the #1 goal of culture change, and the draft process was performed with extremely limited scouting during the combine and the months leading up to the draft.

The fact that Pioli has multiple scouts who have been extremely busy is pure fact. The fact that they have a new Director of College Scouting is fact. The fact that most of these guys weren't involved in the 2009 scouting process is a fact. These are facts that inarguably are important to the talent evaluation process.

And of course I "hope" the Chiefs will do a better job in 2010. What kind of morbid fan wants this administration to fail? Just to prove you were right? I have said a million times that these are moves that have POTENTIAL to make the evaluation process better. POTENTIAL. That potential could either be realized or it may not be.

I hope that it does. So sue me if I hope for the best.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-13-2010, 08:14 PM
Pioli's scouts were, in fact, so busy that despite attending every preseason game, and having a team totally bereft of talent, that after 700 guys from better teams hit the street the first week of September, we signed one guy.

From Pioli's old team.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 08:16 PM
I hate to break this to you, zilla, but apparently it didn't matter what Cook's scouts did because Pioli froze them out anyway and relied on the information of a guy who got fired from a team with a horrendous recent drafting record.
Like I said, I'm not a big fan of the freeze. I'm not going to defend that move. But I don't think that having 4-3 scouts who have to change evaluations in mid-stream was going to help much anyway. On offense, it most certainly would have. It was a dumb move. I know that.

Compound that with the fact that the scheme excuse doesn't mean anything for evaluating offensive players, nor does it cover the ass of the fact that last year was a great year for offensive talent and this year for defensive talent, and yet, just like the dumb ****ing scheme we tried to implement, we tried to force the issue on both sides by drafting counter to the value of the board, and utilizing our own personnel counter to their best values.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean it can't get better now that we have more staff in place.

Furthermore, the FO only had two picks in the entire draft that were even germane to the differences of the 3-4, and one of them was in the top of the first round, where every prospect has a ****ing Dostoevsky-length novel on their strengths and weaknesses, and the other was a redundant backup.
Like I said, I don't agree with freezing scouts. And you could see it killed us. I think where it shows the most is how inactive we were in bringing in undrafted rookies. But again, this is a one-time deal. Will he freeze his scouts again? No. So it sucks that we struggled in 2009, but it's not necessarily representative of what we'll do beyond.

Of course, the 3.5 months between Pioli's hire and the draft also obviated any ability of the scouts to gauge players for the 3-4, and they canceled the 2009 Senior Bowl and Combine, so they didn't have that to go on either. Compounding that tragedy was the fact that all videotape of the entire 2009 college football season was destroyed by a plague of locusts.
Again, not defending the decision.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 08:21 PM
Pioli's scouts were, in fact, so busy that despite attending every preseason game, and having a team totally bereft of talent, that after 700 guys from better teams hit the street the first week of September, we signed one guy.

From Pioli's old team.

The pro personnel side is something that bothers me, and I'm wondering if keeping Ray Farmer was the way to go.

I can only hope that the moves we made were made primarily with the intent of completely changing the culture and that it's a 1-time thing. Again, it will be interesting to see how the Chiefs approach it in 2010. I really hope it's a different strategy.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 08:40 PM
And I'm pointing out that 2009 may not be an indicator of future personnel moves because they were made with the #1 goal of culture change, and the draft process was performed with extremely limited scouting during the combine and the months leading up to the draft.

The fact that Pioli has multiple scouts who have been extremely busy is pure fact. The fact that they have a new Director of College Scouting is fact. The fact that most of these guys weren't involved in the 2009 scouting process is a fact. These are facts that inarguably are important to the talent evaluation process.

And of course I "hope" the Chiefs will do a better job in 2010. What kind of morbid fan wants this administration to fail? Just to prove you were right? I have said a million times that these are moves that have POTENTIAL to make the evaluation process better. POTENTIAL. That potential could either be realized or it may not be.

I hope that it does. So sue me if I hope for the best.

More bullshit.

Pioli totally tanked in Free Agency and the Draft. I think he probably did the worst job of ANY front office in the NFL, PERIOD.

I'd like for you to explain to us how Tyson Jackson, Alex Magee, Donald Washington, Colin Brown and Quintin Lawrence "changed the culture".

Or better yet, Mike Goff or Mike Vrabel or Zach fucking Thomas.

Is Pioli bangin' your Mom or sister on the side?

Your excuses never end.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2010, 08:45 PM
More bullshit.

Pioli totally tanked in Free Agency and the Draft. I think he probably did the worst job of ANY front office in the NFL, PERIOD.

I'd like for you to explain to us how Tyson Jackson, Alex Magee, Donald Washington, Colin Brown and Quintin Lawrence "changed the culture".

Or better yet, Mike Goff or Mike Vrabel or Zach ****ing Thomas.

Is Pioli bangin' your Mom or sister on the side?

Your excuses never end.

They did a horrendous job in 2009. If you'll recall, I was among the most vocal about how stupid it was for Pioli to ignore the offensive line in the offseason. And I was not a big fan at all of going full-out 3-4 instead of moving to a hybrid or a 4-3 Under.

Like I've said a million times, if they deliver in 2010, it's a valid excuse. If they don't deliver, then it's unfortunately the case that they're just not very good.

I'm hoping it's the former, not the latter. That doesn't make me an apologist. I'm just not going to rush to judgment.And again, if we eventually get it right, I'm not going to care about wasting a year.

DaneMcCloud
02-13-2010, 08:46 PM
They did a horrendous job in 2009. If you'll recall, I was among the most vocal about how stupid it was for Pioli to ignore the offensive line in the offseason. And I was not a big fan at all of going full-out 3-4 instead of moving to a hybrid or a 4-3 Under.

Like I've said a million times, if they deliver in 2010, it's a valid excuse. If they don't deliver, then it's unfortunately the case that they're just not very good.

I'm hoping it's the former, not the latter. That doesn't make me an apologist. I'm just not going to rush to judgment.And again, if we eventually get it right, I'm not going to care about wasting a year.

They're awful until proven otherwise.

End of story.

shitgoose
02-13-2010, 10:38 PM
If Scott Pioli decided to sacrifice babies at halftime, you would justify it somehow.

The Mods need to change your name to ChiefBallWasher.



LMAO

Chocolate Hog
02-14-2010, 12:46 AM
No big deal?

How many seasons did the Saints recently throw away?

The Steelers? The Falcons? The Ravens? The Chargers?

It's ****ing idiotic to "throw away" a season but apparently it's "okay" with you.

And to top it off, they "threw away" the 2009 draft. They could have loaded up on talent and instead, they had the Chiefs worst draft in decades.

And we're to believe that 2010 is going to be somehow different?

I won't believe it until I see it.


The Saints threw away 2007 & 2008.

The Chargers every year since they've hired Norv Turner.

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 12:55 AM
The Saints threw away 2007 & 2008.

Bull fucking Shit.

After the Saints went to the NFC Championship and lost to Chicago in 2007, they've been trying to improve their defense. They had difficulty in 2007 and 2008 but at NO time did they throw in the towel.

This year, they signed Darren Sharper and Payton gave up $250k of his salary to sign Gregg Williams (who was slated to go to Green Bay before that gesture).

At NO time did they have a firesale on players. NOR did they fucking TANK the draft and act like DICKHEADS to everyone outside of the organization.

The Chargers every year since they've hired Norv Turner.

This is a retarded statement.

chiefs1111
02-14-2010, 12:57 AM
If i hear one person say something like 2009 was a throw away season or Pioli and Haley knew the Chiefs would suck in 2009 im gonna lose it. There should never,ever be a "throw away season" because there is no fucking excuse for it.

Chocolate Hog
02-14-2010, 12:57 AM
Bull ****ing Shit.

After the Saints went to the NFC Championship and lost to Chicago in 2007, they've been trying to improve their defense. They had difficulty in 2007 and 2008 but at NO time did they throw in the towel.

This year, they signed Darren Sharper and Payton gave up $250k of his salary to sign Gregg Williams (who was slated to go to Green Bay before that gesture).

At NO time did they have a firesale on players. NOR did they ****ing TANK the draft and act like DICKHEADS to everyone outside of the organization.



This is a retarded statement.

I forgot Dane likes medicore coaches.

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 12:58 AM
I forgot Dane likes medicore coaches.

Sean Payton is mediocre?

Are you fucking HIGH tonight?

Chocolate Hog
02-14-2010, 12:59 AM
Sean Payton is mediocre?

Are you ****ing HIGH tonight?

I was referring to your statement about Norv Turner.

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 01:06 AM
I was referring to your statement about Norv Turner.

It's not Norv's fault. It'ts AJ Smith's fault.

If AJ dumped LT last year in favor of Michael Turner, they'd have won the Super Bowl.

The mere fact that they won 13 games this year with broke-dick LT is an indicator of how good that team is and when they get a RB this year in the draft, they're going to be scary.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 01:47 AM
Bull ****ing Shit.

After the Saints went to the NFC Championship and lost to Chicago in 2007, they've been trying to improve their defense. They had difficulty in 2007 and 2008 but at NO time did they throw in the towel.

This year, they signed Darren Sharper and Payton gave up $250k of his salary to sign Gregg Williams (who was slated to go to Green Bay before that gesture).

At NO time did they have a firesale on players. NOR did they ****ing TANK the draft and act like DICKHEADS to everyone outside of the organization.



This is a retarded statement.

-Look at the Saints' 2003 draft (his second as GM). Worse than the Chiefs' 2009 draft.
-Tom Benson was one time viewed as the biggest dickhead in the world when he was practically leveraging Katrina as a way to move the Saints out of New Orleans
-Bringing in Gregg Williams was a great move. But it happened after years of mediocre defenses and it's not as if the Chiefs didn't make major coordinator changes of their own.
-Darren Sharper was also a great move, but again, this was after several years of failed defenses.

You're comparing a team that took 7 years to get beyond mediocrity to a team that is only in year 2 of a new regime. Not exactly a fair comparison.

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 01:50 AM
-Look at the Saints' 2003 draft (his second as GM). Worse than the Chiefs' 2009 draft.
-Tom Benson was one time viewed as the biggest dickhead in the world when he was practically leveraging Katrina as a way to move the Saints out of New Orleans
-Bringing in Gregg Williams was a great move. But it happened after years of mediocre defenses and it's not as if the Chiefs didn't make major coordinator changes of their own.
-Darren Sharper was also a great move, but again, this was after several years of failed defenses.

You're comparing a team that took 7 years to get beyond mediocrity to a team that is only in year 2 of a new regime. Not exactly a fair comparison.

Dear Jackass,

Sean Payton wasn't hired until 2006. Kindly go fuck yourself with a butcher knife.

Sincerely,

Dane

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 01:53 AM
Dear Jackass,

Sean Payton wasn't hired until 2006. Kindly go **** yourself with a butcher knife.

Sincerely,

Dane

Mickey Loomis was hired in 2002.

Are you comparing coaches to GMs now?

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 01:56 AM
Mickey Loomis was hired in 2002.

Are you comparing coaches to GMs now?

Loomis was stuck with Jim Haslett. He didn't hire him.

That franchise had been a fucking mess for decades before he was hired and the first year he hired Payton, they went to the NFC Championship game.

AGAIN, your argument holds NO weight.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 02:04 AM
Loomis was stuck with Jim Haslett. He didn't hire him.

That franchise had been a ****ing mess for decades before he was hired and the first year he hired Payton, they went to the NFC Championship game.

AGAIN, your argument holds NO weight.

So you're saying that because he was forced to keep Haslett, that excuses him for an absolutely horrendous 2003 draft? One where they TRADED UP to draft Jonathan Sullivan, who may have been one of the biggest busts in the last 20 years of drafts?

How about the Chiefs' first draft under Bill Kuharich? A pretty below average draft too. He finished off in 2008 with a pretty outstanding draft, and what I believe was one of the best in Chiefs' history.

The point is that Loomis and Kuharich got better. So much for your argument that the first year is such a strong indicator of future results.

Oxford
02-14-2010, 06:43 AM
Question -- how many years had he Chiefs been sliding before Pioli got here? The answer is at least 4. It is reasonable to assume that Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli discussed his plan before he was hired by Clark Hunt. If you take the fact that the Chiefs were sliding for at least 4 years and the observations of Clark Hunt and how the organization was structured, and who was running it, you have the need for a massive attitude adjustment.

That's why Pioli and Haley were hired. That's cover for Clark Hunt putting his stamp on the organization. Clark Hunt works behind the scenes (just like his father), and there is quite a bit going on behind that perfect hair and calm demeanor.

DJ's left nut
02-14-2010, 10:09 AM
Did they shit their pants their first season? Yes.

Are they doing things very, very different than they did last offseason? Yes.

I can understand people who hated the first season. I can't understand people who don't see how this year has POTENTIAL to be a lot better (strong emphasis on the word "potential")

Here's the thing.

You defended these numb-nuts all of last season as well. Most of us knew they'd pissed down their legs the instant the Jackson pick was made (they proceeded to do no better for the next 30+ weeks).

You, on the other hand, have been washing their balls for months.

So pardon me if I don't really give a rip if you can't 'understand' why I'm down on this front office and almost expect them to take Cody or Okung with their first rounder; then proceed to !@#$ things up even worse from there. At this point I expect we'll have Albert weighing 215 points and playing TE by October.

But congratulations on managing to wrap up that whole line of thought with a truism; real strong stance you're taking there. "Well it might be better...but it might not be..." :rolleyes:

DJ's left nut
02-14-2010, 10:16 AM
I have not defended very many of Pioli's moves. I don't have any opinion on Pioli. Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of his version of the 3-4, but I'm willing to wait it out.

But I think he deserves time to prove me wrong. Just as I gave Cassel every benefit before he proved me wrong, I think Pioli deserves at least 2010 before I can have an opinion.

I'm not a Pioli tool. Just extremely opposed to people who have the ridiculous opinion that the first season is a true measure of every single thing you can do in your entire career.

WTF?

You've defended every MFing one of Pioli's moves, every single one.

We have threads with you calling Ben Roethlesberger a game manager in order to defend Matt Cassel. Threads with you saying Tyson Jackson could be the next Richard Seymore. I'd imagine I can find you propping up Mike Brown or slamming Bernard Pollard if I looked long enough.

Dane had it right - you're a Pioli tool; a complete shill. You're the Rufus Dawes of message board posters.

"THEY JUST NEED MORE TIME!!!"

T-post Tom
02-14-2010, 12:25 PM
"In the past, when discussing what the Chiefs might do with their first pick, we were normally able to come to a consensus and narrow things down to a small handful of players."


We were? When did this happen?

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 12:47 PM
WTF?

You've defended every MFing one of Pioli's moves, every single one.

We have threads with you calling Ben Roethlesberger a game manager in order to defend Matt Cassel. Threads with you saying Tyson Jackson could be the next Richard Seymore. I'd imagine I can find you propping up Mike Brown or slamming Bernard Pollard if I looked long enough.

Dane had it right - you're a Pioli tool; a complete shill. You're the Rufus Dawes of message board posters.

"THEY JUST NEED MORE TIME!!!"

Wrong
Wrong
and
Wrong

But thanks for playing.

I have never offered a ringing endorsement for Pioli, Cassel, or Jackson. That's what's comical about the whole thing. That neutrality and patience have become synonymous with homerism. It's sad that that's how negative people have become.

I've said a million times I don't like the majority of moves Pioli has made. Feel free to hunt down any time I've said otherwise. I said I'd be patient with Cassel until he got a few games in, and now I'm not a supporter. The same goes for Jackson.

But I guess you're right that we should fire every single person who doesn't get everything right in their first year. Because we shouldn't be patient with anybody. That's just homerism and patronization.

Halfcan
02-14-2010, 02:20 PM
This article is humorous, it basically says that "since Pioli made a major reach dipshit pick last year we can argue anything as fair game!"


ROFL Nice Cliff notes.

Kerberos
02-14-2010, 02:22 PM
Let's not forget that Tyson Jackson had Pedergast for a coach and slap happy Krumie for a postion coach.

I will give him another year under Crennel and see how he does before I say the Piholy pick was bad.

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 03:30 PM
Wrong
Wrong
and
Wrong

But thanks for playing.

I have never offered a ringing endorsement for Pioli, Cassel, or Jackson. That's what's comical about the whole thing. That neutrality and patience have become synonymous with homerism. It's sad that that's how negative people have become.

I've said a million times I don't like the majority of moves Pioli has made. Feel free to hunt down any time I've said otherwise. I said I'd be patient with Cassel until he got a few games in, and now I'm not a supporter. The same goes for Jackson.

But I guess you're right that we should fire every single person who doesn't get everything right in their first year. Because we shouldn't be patient with anybody. That's just homerism and patronization.

You are THE most intellectually dishonest member of this forum.

Bar NONE.

BigRock
02-14-2010, 03:48 PM
I like Ash's draft stuff. Now for Nick's mock where every pick is a Big 12 player and the Chiefs get a 2nd for Brodie Croyle.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 04:35 PM
You are THE most intellectually dishonest member of this forum.

Bar NONE.

In almost every situation, I have taken the stance of "it's ridiculous to say a guy is great or bad at something until he's had enough time to prove himself." Maybe I wait a little longer than others. That's not intellectually dishonest. When things go great and homers come out of the woodwork, I'm generally more negative. Go ahead and fish through my posts and tell me where I've said that Pioli looks like he's building a dynasty here. Or that Matt Cassel is playing like a QBOTF. Etc....

I do not support the majority of the moves Pioli made. I've said a million times that I don't think he or his front office has done a good job in 2009. I don't know how that has translated into becoming some kind of a shill for the man.

Just face it. You are so negative about this team that you take any remotely positive opinion as homerism.

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 04:51 PM
Just face it. You are so negative about this team that you take any remotely positive opinion as homerism.

Patently false.

I have no problem with "homerism".

I do however have a problem with the idea of defending someone at all costs, which is what you've done in nearly every post since the new regime was hired.

DeezNutz
02-14-2010, 05:17 PM
Like I've said many times before, Pioli didn't do a good job in 2009. So right now, there are a lot of excuses. But if he and his staff get it right in 2010 and beyond (and I don't understand why there are many who believe this is 100% the case), then in the end, all we lost was one year. No big deal, in the grand scheme of things.

No, fucking up the '09 off-season, especially with our draft position, has an impact well beyond the immediate one.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 06:01 PM
Patently false.

I have no problem with "homerism".

I do however have a problem with the idea of defending someone at all costs, which is what you've done in nearly every post since the new regime was hired.

I have not defended the regime at all costs.

-I ripped into the front office for not looking offensive line until 3 weeks into the preseason
-I ripped into the front office for ignoring the offensive line and offense in general from rounds 3-7
-I was one of the few that didn't like the Tony Gonzalez trade
-I've consistently ripped into Haley for poor playcalling and refusal to play young players
-I ripped into the front office for cutting Herb Taylor and Damion McIntosh on an offensive line that was already crippled. And I tore them apart for not realizing these guys weren't the answer until the preseason was over
-I ripped into Haley for playing musical chairs with his receivers
-I was one of the few that hated cutting Pollard when it happened
-I have publicly disapproved of Pioli going after former Pats (though, I think people exaggerate how bad these moves were)
-I ripped into Haley early on for chewing out Waters, saying that it's disrespectful to say that to any employee
-I have said about a bazillion times that I thought they did a shitty job in 2009
-I was against the idea of running a 3-4 and have said that they should have run a 4-3 Under as they transist into a 3-4

So... you're saying that I am a lackey for the front office is intellectually dishonest, if you actually go based on what I've said based on what you've paid attention to. It just so happens that most of the board is pessimistic and I'm always going to be loud against people I disagree with. If this board were full of homers, I'd be loud against people who treated Cassel like Jesus Christ or Pioli like he has done nothing wrong.

I admit I was wrong on Cassel, even if I never ringingly endorsed him as a QBOTF. I have been extremely critical of Pioli, but just hold the opinion that he deserves 2010 before we can say he's a bust. And yes, I'm one of the few that doesn't think the Tyson Jackson pick was terrible. Apart from that, tell me where I've been a shill for the organization. On three viewpoints, you're labelling me as a shill. THREE.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 06:02 PM
No, ****ing up the '09 off-season, especially with our draft position, has an impact well beyond the immediate one.

That's your opinion. I don't agree, but I respect that opinion, even if I'm going to argue against it.

But I've never disagreed with anyone that has said that 2009 was a fiasco. Which is why I don't understand why I'm being labeled as a lackey for Pioli. How can a person hate the moves he's made, and be considered a lackey? It doesn't add up.

DeezNutz
02-14-2010, 06:07 PM
That's your opinion. I don't agree, but I respect that opinion, even if I'm going to argue against it.

But I've never disagreed with anyone that has said that 2009 was a fiasco. Which is why I don't understand why I'm being labeled as a lackey for Pioli. How can a person hate the moves he's made, and be considered a lackey? It doesn't add up.

No, I don't agree that you've been only a "homer," so I'm not in that camp.

But how can you argue against the long-term effect of shitting the bed in the '09 draft? #3 overall should have resulted in an elite player, a true cornerstone. And teams MUST get significant (and often immediate) contribution from rounds 2-4. And occasionally you have to hit on a star or two here.

Rounds 5-7 are just as important, but easier to forgive b/c of the nature of projecting talent.

If '09 proves to be as bad as it appears at first blush, it hurts the franchise exponentially more than only 1 year.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 06:16 PM
No, I don't agree that you've been only a "homer," so I'm not in that camp.

But how can you argue against the long-term effect of shitting the bed in the '09 draft? #3 overall should have resulted in an elite player, a true cornerstone. And teams MUST get significant (and often immediate) contribution from rounds 2-4. And occasionally you have to hit on a star or two here.

Rounds 5-7 are just as important, but easier to forgive b/c of the nature of projecting talent.

If '09 proves to be as bad as it appears at first blush, it hurts the franchise exponentially more than only 1 year.

Yeah, I'll give you that. Especially given the new CBA. I don't like the way we handled 2009, from freezing scouts to sitting on our hands. But I can forgive if they start to get it right in 2010. That's where I'm at.

milkman
02-14-2010, 08:42 PM
When you really start discussing it, the Tyson Jackson pick alone didn't have that big an impact on this year's draft, so much as the rest of last year's draft completely changed this draft.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 08:46 PM
When you really start discussing it, the Tyson Jackson pick alone didn't have that big an impact on this year's draft, so much as the rest of last year's draft completely changed this draft.

I remember being frustrated with how little activity we had in the undrafted rookie front too. Something the Chiefs are normally very aggressive with. Freezing the scouts was a stupid thing to do.

I hope that having a complete scouting network is going to help the Chiefs in the late rounds and with the undrafted guys. With those picks, we could have gnabbed the best fullback in the draft, some competition at Inside Linebacker, a return specialist, maybe even stole an underrated offensive lineman or slot receiver. Lots of wasted opportunities. At least they got the kicker right, though.

milkman
02-14-2010, 08:51 PM
I remember being frustrated with how little activity we had in the undrafted rookie front too. Something the Chiefs are normally very aggressive with. Freezing the scouts was a stupid thing to do.

I hope that having a complete scouting network is going to help the Chiefs in the late rounds and with the undrafted guys. With those picks, we could have gnabbed the best fullback in the draft, some competition at Inside Linebacker, a return specialist, maybe even stole an underrated offensive lineman or slot receiver. Lots of wasted opportunities. At least they got the kicker right, though.

My primary thought is that we clearly needed O-Line in a draft that was stacked with O-Line talent, and we ignored it, for the most part.

So now, we are discussing teh same exact needs in this draft that we were discussing in last year's draft.

We appear to have made no damn headway.

chiefzilla1501
02-14-2010, 09:00 PM
My primary thought is that we clearly needed O-Line in a draft that was stacked with O-Line talent, and we ignored it, for the most part.

So now, we are discussing teh same exact needs in this draft that we were discussing in last year's draft.

We appear to have made no damn headway.

In addition to burning a late round pick for Ndukwe/Allenman in a panic move. I'm not even that happy with the Colin Brown pick. They should have let Cook's scouts pick on offense and then focused solely on defense, if he was worried about crossover in philosophies.

If there's anything that has made me livid, it's the way we treated the offensive line like a bastard stepchild. Pioli was too busy trying to force the 3-4 in that he felt the need to really focus in on getting enough players to run it.

Oh well. It was a mistake. I just hope he learns from it.

milkman
02-14-2010, 09:23 PM
In addition to burning a late round pick for Ndukwe/Allenman in a panic move. I'm not even that happy with the Colin Brown pick. They should have let Cook's scouts pick on offense and then focused solely on defense, if he was worried about crossover in philosophies.

If there's anything that has made me livid, it's the way we treated the offensive line like a bastard stepchild. Pioli was too busy trying to force the 3-4 in that he felt the need to really focus in on getting enough players to run it.

Oh well. It was a mistake. I just hope he learns from it.

In the end, I think Colin Brown showed enough at guard that he might turn out to be a good pick.

But that would be purely by luck.

He drafted a RT, whne there were clearly better RT prospects on the board.

DaneMcCloud
02-14-2010, 09:43 PM
In the end, I think Colin Brown showed enough at guard that he might turn out to be a good pick.

But that would be purely by luck.

He drafted a RT, whne there were clearly better RT prospects on the board.

While you know that I agree with this, I'm very willing to give Pioli a pass on that pick, especially if Colin Brown competes and/or locks down the starting right guard position in 2010.