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Taco John
02-18-2010, 11:17 AM
America: A Big Fat Greek Tragedy

By Wayne Allyn Root, 2008 Libertarian Vice Presidential Nominee

Greece is the insolvent, bankrupt country that threatens to bring down the entire EU (European Union) with its exploding and toxic national debt. But it’s just one of the PIGS- Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. The EU is damned if they do, damned if they don’t. If they choose to bail out Greece in order to save the union, soon they’ll have much bigger bankrupt nations to deal with (Portugal and Spain are next in a long Conga line). There isn’t enough money in all the world to bail out all of them. The EU is in big trouble.

But the real problem is that Greece isn’t the worst Greek tragedy on the horizon. Greece is only “the canary in the coal mine.” The United States is one big fat Greek tragedy. We are Greece- SQUARED. All the same problems that plague Greece, plague this country- huge national deficits and debt; high unemployment; gigantic entitlement programs; too many government employees; not enough tax revenues coming in; endless bailouts and stimulus; and pension and healthcare systems (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid) that threaten to eat every dollar of the budget. Just the interest on our national debt is enough to destroy our economy. It’s all a Greek tragedy.

America is Greece- except on a much grander scale. Our economic collapse is still a year or two down the road. Obama is laughing, celebrating, dancing and handing out gifts (stimulus, bailouts, entitlements, corporate welfare) at a big fat Greek wedding…oblivious to the the coming economic Armageddon…oblivious to the madness of his plan- to triple down on spending to save us from insolvency.

But it didn’t take Greece to warn America of the impending doom. California is our Greece. I warned long ago that Obama’s stimulus plan was a disaster. That handing out $120 billion dollars to state and local governments so that they could prevent layoffs of government employees; hire more teachers and government employees; and actually protect raises for government employees…was pure madness. I pointed out at the time that state and local governments across the USA were bankrupt and insolvent. The only possible solution was massive cuts in government spending and layoffs of government employees (just like the private sector). I pointed out that once the stimulus ran out in 2 years, we’d have the same exact problem…except with more government employee salaries, pensions and health care to pay for. All we did was kick the can down the road a bit. We delayed the inevitable economic disaster- just as Greece has done for decades, just as California has done for years. But the day of reckoning is fast approaching.

California is still insolvent and bankrupt…so are most state and local governments…now we have more government employee mouths to feed…more pensions to pay…how will we pay the even larger bill once the stimulus runs out? Where is the next stimulus coming from? How do we pay back the $2 trillion that the Fed has printed? Where are the tax revenues when everyone is a government employee?

All the king’s men…all the countries of the world…all the bankers and Goldman Sachs partners…cannot pay the bills that are coming due for America. The national debt has zoomed past $100 trillion. As a sign of things to come, our December deficit doubled in the past year. Obama’s budget pressed the pedal towards Armageddon- by spending more than all the budgets of all the Presidents that came before him, combined.

The old saying goes, “A trillion here and a trillion there…pretty soon we’re talking about real money.” Well let’s give you some perspective of the trouble we are in. Greece owes $300 billion to the banks. That amount…from a tiny country…threatens to bankrupt banks across Europe and bring down the entire EU. Yet Obama spent $800 billion in one stimulus bill last year. That stimulus by the way, created zero jobs. ZERO. He wanted to spend a trillion more on his expansion of government-run healthcare. If $300 billion can bring down the entire EU…and make big European banks insolvent…who can possibly bailout America’s $100 trillion tab? Just one state- California- is in similar shape and facing the same kind of economic collapse as Greece.

The lesson we must learn is that government cannot spend taxpayers’ money endlessly; that not everyone can work for government; that not everyone can depend on government for survival; that government cannot give raises and bonuses to government employees in a depression; that big pensions and universal healthcare bankrupt nations; that unions are poisonous to the survival of an economy; that “spreading the wealth around” is a failure whenever and wherever it’s been tried- Argentina, Greece, California. The socialist experiment is a disaster.

Now we wait…as the clock ticks…to see if we can avoid becoming the next Greek tragedy that pushes the world towards a second Great Depression.


http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/02/america-a-big-fat-greek-tragedy/

BucEyedPea
02-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Yes it is. That's why we have to eke out a living using conquest now by spreading democracy around the world to help the mercantilist interests connected to our govt to ensure there are no other competitors for natural resources ( oil and natural gas) in the ME or central Asia.

There are signs the empire is collapsing though. So there is a silver lining.

The Mad Crapper
02-18-2010, 11:47 AM
All the king’s men…all the countries of the world…all the bankers and Goldman Sachs partners…cannot pay the bills that are coming due for America. The national debt has zoomed past $100 trillion. As a sign of things to come, our December deficit doubled in the past year. Obama’s budget pressed the pedal towards Armageddon- by spending more than all the budgets of all the Presidents that came before him, combined.

The old saying goes, “A trillion here and a trillion there…pretty soon we’re talking about real money.” Well let’s give you some perspective of the trouble we are in. Greece owes $300 billion to the banks. That amount…from a tiny country…threatens to bankrupt banks across Europe and bring down the entire EU. Yet Obama spent $800 billion in one stimulus bill last year. That stimulus by the way, created zero jobs. ZERO. He wanted to spend a trillion more on his expansion of government-run healthcare. If $300 billion can bring down the entire EU…and make big European banks insolvent…who can possibly bailout America’s $100 trillion tab? Just one state- California- is in similar shape and facing the same kind of economic collapse as Greece.

The lesson we must learn is that government cannot spend taxpayers’ money endlessly; that not everyone can work for government; that not everyone can depend on government for survival; that government cannot give raises and bonuses to government employees in a depression; that big pensions and universal healthcare bankrupt nations; that unions are poisonous to the survival of an economy; that “spreading the wealth around” is a failure whenever and wherever it’s been tried- Argentina, Greece, California. The socialist experiment is a disaster.

Now we wait…as the clock ticks…to see if we can avoid becoming the next Greek tragedy that pushes the world towards a second Great Depression.


http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/02/america-a-big-fat-greek-tragedy/

We are Greece- SQUARED. :doh!:

http://thepeoplescube.com/red/richedit/upload/2k4b673aa037.jpg

Bearcat2005
02-18-2010, 12:47 PM
Quit spreading these scare tactics Taco. Just because productivity is slidding and inflation is rising does not mean that the Obama adminstrations Kansyian modeled stimilus policies are not working. Obviously 12.3 Trillion in Federal deficit is not enough. What is after Trillion? Whatever it is should be our goal.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2010, 12:57 PM
Dems have figured out they can spend it and the conservatives will have to fix it. When the fixes begin the screaming and hollaring will be incredible as everyone will have an ox that gets gored.

Taxes will have to rise without impeding business resurgence, spending will have to fall and in the process every sappy special interest will scream to high heaven.

In truth, we are headed for a cleansing.

orange
02-18-2010, 01:01 PM
Just because productivity is slidding


PRODUCTIVITY AND COSTS
Fourth Quarter and Annual Averages 2009, Preliminary

Nonfarm business sector labor productivity increased at a 6.2 percent annual
rate during the fourth quarter of 2009, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
reported today. This gain in productivity reflects increases of 7.2 percent
in output and 1.0 percent in hours worked. (All quarterly percent changes in
this release are seasonally adjusted annual rates.) This was the first
quarterly increase in hours worked since the second quarter of 2007
(0.9 percent). Productivity increased 5.1 percent over the last four quarters
--more than during any similar period since output per hour rose 6.1 percent
from the first quarter of 2001 to the first quarter of 2002 (table A).


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm

and inflation is rising

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/



The BULLSHIT never stops around here, does it?

KC native
02-18-2010, 01:05 PM
PRODUCTIVITY AND COSTS
Fourth Quarter and Annual Averages 2009, Preliminary

Nonfarm business sector labor productivity increased at a 6.2 percent annual
rate during the fourth quarter of 2009, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
reported today. This gain in productivity reflects increases of 7.2 percent
in output and 1.0 percent in hours worked. (All quarterly percent changes in
this release are seasonally adjusted annual rates.) This was the first
quarterly increase in hours worked since the second quarter of 2007
(0.9 percent). Productivity increased 5.1 percent over the last four quarters
--more than during any similar period since output per hour rose 6.1 percent
from the first quarter of 2001 to the first quarter of 2002 (table A).


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm


The BULLSHIT never stops around here, does it?

No, it doesn't

KC native
02-18-2010, 01:06 PM
On the actual thread topic, we are far from insolvent. We might not be able to borrow this cheaply for much longer but we are far from insolvent.

KC Dan
02-18-2010, 01:21 PM
On the actual thread topic, we are far from insolvent. We might not be able to borrow this cheaply for much longer but we are far from insolvent.kcnative, If someone makes $50k/yr, at what debt point would you consider them insolvent?

banyon
02-18-2010, 01:24 PM
kcnative, If someone makes $50k/yr, at what debt point would you consider them insolvent?

At the point they can't meaningfully service their debt?

KC native
02-18-2010, 01:25 PM
kcnative, If someone makes $50k/yr, at what debt point would you consider them insolvent?

When they can no longer pay their obligations. The US is still a long ways from that point.

KC Dan
02-18-2010, 01:45 PM
When they can no longer pay their obligations. The US is still a long ways from that point.I understand what being insolvent is but I would add that we cannot pay our obligations as we continue to borrow TO pay our obligations. If one earns $50k/yr, and his payments on all of his debt exceeds $50k/yr say $75k/yr, is he not insolvent? Or, is your determination that if he can continue to borrow cash at $25k/yr keep him solvent?

KC native
02-18-2010, 01:58 PM
I understand what being insolvent is but I would add that we cannot pay our obligations as we continue to borrow TO pay our obligations. If one earns $50k/yr, and his payments on all of his debt exceeds $50k/yr say $75k/yr, is he not insolvent? Or, is your determination that if he can continue to borrow cash at $25k/yr keep him solvent?

Let's stop with the silly analogy. The US $ is still the reserve currency in the world and if we raise interest rates then a flood of foreign capital seeking safety from other foreign sovereign debt. The US is stable wrt to the rest of the world as well and our investor protections are much higher. The US can still pay it's debts and we have the ability to take on more debt (not that I think that is wise). The US is no where near being insolvent.

Donger
02-18-2010, 02:02 PM
I read earlier today that by 2030, the interest alone on our debt (let paying down the actual debt) will be the largest single item in our federal budget.

Yeah, that sounds peachy.

mlyonsd
02-18-2010, 02:08 PM
I read earlier today that by 2030, the interest alone on our debt (let paying down the actual debt) will be the largest single item in our federal budget.

Yeah, that sounds peachy.

We can just tax the rich more. That's what they're here for.

banyon
02-18-2010, 02:09 PM
I read earlier today that by 2030, the interest alone on our debt (let paying down the actual debt) will be the largest single item in our federal budget.

Yeah, that sounds peachy.

I think this percentage is already at a level that, while not insolvency, causes an undesirable transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy (and the foreign wealthy).

Donger
02-18-2010, 02:14 PM
Ah, here it is:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/national-debt-budget-deficit-scary-forecast-taxpayers/story?id=9854459&page=1

Amnorix
02-18-2010, 02:18 PM
Dems have figured out they can spend it and the conservatives will have to fix it.

What a joke. That sure as hell isn't the lesson to be learned from '93 to '08 (Clinton-Bush). That era suggested exactly the opposite. Now, it seems, both parties talk a good game when they're out of power, but are terrified of making touhg choices when they are in power.

Amnorix
02-18-2010, 02:24 PM
the solvency test is typically two pronged, with either one resulting in a determination that the person/entity is insolvent:

1. assets in excess of liabilities.

2. ability to pay debts as they come due

Under either standard America is solvent. Grossly so. But we are heading the wrong way in a very, VERY big hurry.

KC Dan
02-18-2010, 02:25 PM
Let's stop with the silly analogy. The US $ is still the reserve currency in the world and if we raise interest rates then a flood of foreign capital seeking safety from other foreign sovereign debt. The US is stable wrt to the rest of the world as well and our investor protections are much higher. The US can still pay it's debts and we have the ability to take on more debt (not that I think that is wise). The US is no where near being insolvent.your'e right, stop with the silly analogy.

KC Native and Congressional Battle Cry - "Keep Borrowing More, we're good for it" ;)

KC Dan
02-18-2010, 02:41 PM
Nothing to worry about then I guess. But, of course the Fed has finally started their rising of interest rates...

Bearcat2005
02-18-2010, 06:27 PM
PRODUCTIVITY AND COSTS
Fourth Quarter and Annual Averages 2009, Preliminary

Nonfarm business sector labor productivity increased at a 6.2 percent annual
rate during the fourth quarter of 2009, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
reported today. This gain in productivity reflects increases of 7.2 percent
in output and 1.0 percent in hours worked. (All quarterly percent changes in
this release are seasonally adjusted annual rates.) This was the first
quarterly increase in hours worked since the second quarter of 2007
(0.9 percent). Productivity increased 5.1 percent over the last four quarters
--more than during any similar period since output per hour rose 6.1 percent
from the first quarter of 2001 to the first quarter of 2002 (table A).


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm



http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/



The BULLSHIT never stops around here, does it?

hahaha
you really think that the fed's policies and this administrations actions will set up such... you are a dumbshit.
We are stabilizing for now out of a recession of course it will.... opportunity costs you cant measure. Sory I choose economic efficency.

Bearcat2005
02-18-2010, 06:34 PM
duh

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/01/20/oecd-admits-high-personal-and-corporate-tax-rates-hurt-prosperity/

Saul Good
02-18-2010, 06:41 PM
When they can no longer pay their obligations. The US is still a long ways from that point.

The average debt per taxpayer is over $113,000 per taxpayer. Meanwhile, the average annual income per HOUSEHOLD in the US is under $50,000.

If a household making $48,000 per year had $113,000 in unsecured debt, they would be bankrupt.

BucEyedPea
02-18-2010, 06:42 PM
The US could default like some states in the US have done in the past. Or we become cashless society or a new currency will evolve—something like plastic money with digital credits for trade. We're we can be watched and controlled. banyon's dream state.

mlyonsd
02-18-2010, 06:50 PM
The average debt per taxpayer is over $113,000 per taxpayer. Meanwhile, the average annual income per HOUSEHOLD in the US is under $50,000.

If a household making $48,000 per year had $113,000 in unsecured debt, they would be bankrupt.

We're cool since your averages don't take into consideration we still have a super rich group of people we'll rob to pay off all of this mess with. Duh. There's always somebody higher than me in the hierarchy we'll eventually bust into and steal their bank account.

orange
02-18-2010, 07:02 PM
Just because productivity is slidding


PRODUCTIVITY AND COSTS
Fourth Quarter and Annual Averages 2009, Preliminary

Nonfarm business sector labor productivity increased at a 6.2 percent annual
rate during the fourth quarter of 2009, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
reported today. This gain in productivity reflects increases of 7.2 percent
in output and 1.0 percent in hours worked. (All quarterly percent changes in
this release are seasonally adjusted annual rates.) This was the first
quarterly increase in hours worked since the second quarter of 2007
(0.9 percent). Productivity increased 5.1 percent over the last four quarters
--more than during any similar period since output per hour rose 6.1 percent
from the first quarter of 2001 to the first quarter of 2002 (table A).


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm

and inflation is rising

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/



The BULLSHIT never stops around here, does it?


Hey dumbshit Bearcat2005. How are productivity and inflation doing in the U.S.? If you've got some ACTUAL RELEVANT information to post to back up your claims - instead of some policy recommendations for Japan - I'm all ears.

KC native
02-18-2010, 09:38 PM
The average debt per taxpayer is over $113,000 per taxpayer. Meanwhile, the average annual income per HOUSEHOLD in the US is under $50,000.

If a household making $48,000 per year had $113,000 in unsecured debt, they would be bankrupt.

How about you compare apples to apples dumbfuck. Here's a hint: What's our GDP and what's our debt level?

KC native
02-18-2010, 09:38 PM
The US could default like some states in the US have done in the past. Or we become cashless society or a new currency will evolve—something like plastic money with digital credits for trade. We're we can be watched and controlled. banyon's dream state.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=223334

KC Dan
02-18-2010, 11:11 PM
How about you compare apples to apples dumb****. Here's a hint: What's our GDP and what's our debt level?
US GDP $14.463 TRILLION
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

US DEBT $12.387 TRILLION
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

US FEDERAL REVENUE 2009 $2.105 TRILLION
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/#usgs302a



damn near 1:1 , peachy and debt is 6 times annual Federal revenues

greg63
02-19-2010, 01:08 AM
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KC native
02-19-2010, 08:55 AM
US GDP $14.463 TRILLION
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

US DEBT $12.387 TRILLION
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

US FEDERAL REVENUE 2009 $2.105 TRILLION
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/#usgs302a



damn near 1:1 , peachy and debt is 6 times annual Federal revenues

Um, that's 85% not damn near 1:1. Thanks anyways for proving my point that we're a long ways away from being insolvent.

KC Dan
02-19-2010, 09:03 AM
Um, that's 85% not damn near 1:1. Thanks anyways for proving my point that we're a long ways away from being insolvent.quibble...hehehe. I said "damn near" - as in "use common sense". Yes, you are correct that we are not insolvent. I never said we were insolvent but anyone that thinks this debt is no problem can surely not bitch when the interest payments become our biggest expenditure. If nothing else, this climbing debt to revenue level is certainly not sustainable forever. We will crash eventually at this rate of $1-1.6 Trillion deficits. Our gov't is only focused on raising revenue (which they should concentrate on) but they need to reduce spending yesterday. Of that, there can be no doubt unless one is an aplogetic supporter of a failing economic policy

BucEyedPea
02-19-2010, 09:09 AM
Oh come on we're bankrupt.

KC Dan
02-19-2010, 09:13 AM
Oh come on we're bankrupt.That is only true if you discount all of the revenue possible if you tax the bajeezus out of everyone in the US. However, you cannot because the congress can always raise more revenue if they wish to commit political suicide. If it is NOT possible to gain extra revenue from Americans and the $2.1 TRILLION/yr revenue is all you got, then yes - bankrupt. But, that is not the case.

BucEyedPea
02-19-2010, 09:16 AM
That is only true if you discount all of the revenue possible if you tax the bajeezus out of everyone in the US. However, you cannot because the congress can always raise more revenue if they wish to commit political suicide. If it is NOT possible to gain extra revenue from Americans and the $2.1 TRILLION/yr revenue is all you got, then yes - bankrupt. But, that is not the case.

Well that to me is the same thing. I mean what would that do to their revenue source—the people. Heck! There's a lot more bankrupt private citizens. I mean there wasn't even enough money from the FDIC to protect people's money in the banks. We're bankrupt including at the level of ideas ( refers to those working in govt and elected officials).