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JASONSAUTO
03-14-2010, 08:21 PM
Well hell, I'm not arguing that Cassel is Green's equal.

That would be just stupid.

i wasnt either. i just said that there were some similarities in their situations in each players first season as a chief.
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
03-14-2010, 08:23 PM
Well, that's what others have said by declaring "Well, Trent Green's first year was bad, too".

:shake:

Yeah, I've seen those aguments.

Green did have a crappy first year in KC, but he showed flashes consistently throughout the season that he had the talent to succeed.

Matt Cassel's first season was an abject failure.

He made three or four plays in 14 starts, and had one game in which he actually looked like an NFL QB.

That isn't nearly enough to proclaim he has potential.

To succeed, he's needs to be surrounded by superior talent and to work out of the spread about 65-75% of snaps, and that's not a QB I want to go into the playoffs with.

JASONSAUTO
03-14-2010, 08:24 PM
Well, that's what others have said by declaring "Well, Trent Green's first year was bad, too".

:shake:

from me? not really. just giving an example of another player that we all know and i would think we all saw how that worked out for us. i think most of us agree that green was a fairly good qb for this team. could it happen again? imo sure. but we'll see
Posted via Mobile Device

luv
03-14-2010, 08:25 PM
Yeah, I've seen those aguments.

Green did have a crappy first year in KC, but he showed flashes consistently throughout the season that he had the talent to succeed.

Matt Cassel's first season was an abject failure.

He made three or four plays in 14 starts, and had one game in which he actually looked like an NFL QB.

That isn't nearly enough to proclaim he has potential.

To succeed, he's needs to be surrounded by superior talent and to work out of the spread about 65-75% of snaps, and that's not a QB I want to go into the playoffs with.
What are these "playoffs" you speak of?

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 08:27 PM
from me? not really. just giving an example of another player that we all know and i would think we all saw how that worked out for us. i think most of us agree that green was a fairly good qb for this team. could it happen again? imo sure. but we'll see
Posted via Mobile Device

I wasn't singling you out, Jason. It's been thrown around by scores of forum members for the past year.

milkman
03-14-2010, 08:28 PM
What are these "playoffs" you speak of?

They are games played everywhere but KC.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 08:30 PM
Thank god... I wanted nothing to do with him.
There's going to be quite a mediocrity competition between him and Aborton this year.
Posted via Mobile Device

Exactly. That fucker is off the table, and the window she is a closing for Cassel if he sucks again this year.

Can you hear that trigger cocking? Can ya'? Can ya'? (where's the cartwheel smiley when you need it?!)

WOOT! ELEVENTY-BILLION-GOOGILLION TO THE SHIP!!!!!!111111@@!!111

JASONSAUTO
03-14-2010, 08:31 PM
just trying to clarify my line of thinking dane.:)
Posted via Mobile Device

lostcause
03-14-2010, 08:42 PM
An interesting side bit of this is that I believe Seneca Wallace will be starting in Cleveland very soon.

Bane
03-14-2010, 08:45 PM
An interesting side bit of this is that I believe Seneca Wallace will be starting in Cleveland very soon.

I respectfully disagree.Thats why they're shucking the excess IMO. Bringing in a new signal caller is in their sights.

TRR
03-14-2010, 08:45 PM
Yeah, I've seen those aguments.

Green did have a crappy first year in KC, but he showed flashes consistently throughout the season that he had the talent to succeed.

Matt Cassel's first season was an abject failure.

He made three or four plays in 14 starts, and had one game in which he actually looked like an NFL QB.

That isn't nearly enough to proclaim he has potential.

To succeed, he's needs to be surrounded by superior talent and to work out of the spread about 65-75% of snaps, and that's not a QB I want to go into the playoffs with.

Green led the league in INT's, and nearly everyone on this board were ready to hang him. I remember posting stating that if they saw him out, they were going to punch him in the face ala Clausen style. The reason Green "showed flashes" was because he had two VERY talented RB's, and an all world TE, as well as a solid O Line. None of which was afforded to Cassel this past season until midseason or later...

We can all only hope Cassel turns out like Green.

****also, Cassel is best with play-action, not the spread.


Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
03-14-2010, 08:50 PM
Green led the league in INT's, and nearly everyone on this board were ready to hang him. I remember posting stating that if they saw him out, they were going to punch him in the face ala Clausen style. The reason Green "showed flashes" was because he had two VERY talented RB's, and an all world TE, as well as a solid O Line. None of which was afforded to Cassel this past season until midseason or later...

We can all only hope Cassel turns out like Green.

****also, Cassel is best with play-action, not the spread.


Posted via Mobile Device

:rolleyes:

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 09:00 PM
We're one draft away from knowing, with much accuracy, what we need to know about Pioli.

1000000000% motherfucking TRUTH.

Goddammit :cuss:

We didn't give up much for him but still. I fucking hate Brady Quinn.

I feel happy, oh-so happy...:evil:

JOIN THE MOVEMENT!!!!!

Jonathan Quinn is an upgrade over Cassel.

Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman is upgrade over Assel.

:rolleyes:

Come on milk; AIM LOW!ROFL

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:04 PM
Green led the league in INT's, and nearly everyone on this board were ready to hang him. I remember posting stating that if they saw him out, they were going to punch him in the face ala Clausen style. The reason Green "showed flashes" was because he had two VERY talented RB's, and an all world TE, as well as a solid O Line. None of which was afforded to Cassel this past season until midseason or later...

We can all only hope Cassel turns out like Green.

****also, Cassel is best with play-action, not the spread.


Posted via Mobile Device

What?

You weren't even around in 2001, so how could you have "posted"?

Furthermore, Trent Green was an established starter in two different NFL cities.

His resume was volumes better than Cassel.

Your post is intellectually dishonest.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:06 PM
:rolleyes:

I think this guys has had too many head injuries in the past decade

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:07 PM
I'd love to know what anyone has ever seen out of Cassel that makes them think he's the guy.

Even when he played for NE, he took a ton of sacks making their line look far worse than it is, he got a huge portion of his stats throwing WR screens to Welker and Moss.

Surrounded by that elite talent he was still treated and played like a guy who is the backup.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:09 PM
I'd love to know what anyone has ever seen out of Cassel that makes them think he's the guy.

Even when he played for NE, he took a ton of sacks making their line look far worse than it is, he got a huge portion of his stats throwing WR screens to Welker and Moss.

Surrounded by that elite talent he was still treated and played like a guy who is the backup.

He was sacked 47 times.

If the average weight of the guy who sacked him was 275 pounds, he was actually sacked 6.5 tons, or 12,925 pounds.

:D

BossChief
03-14-2010, 09:12 PM
TRR is having a hard time with reality...

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:12 PM
I just don't get it, what has this guy ever done. He still is today the same thing he was the first time he ever suited up for NE.

A QB who does not go through progressions, he makes 1 read and if it's not there he runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off fucking up the protection. On top of that the only passes he can consistently complete are WR screens.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:13 PM
TRR is having a hard time with reality...

You have NO idea...

evolve27
03-14-2010, 09:14 PM
I'd love to know what anyone has ever seen out of Cassel that makes them think he's the guy.

Even when he played for NE, he took a ton of sacks making their line look far worse than it is, he got a huge portion of his stats throwing WR screens to Welker and Moss.

Surrounded by that elite talent he was still treated and played like a guy who is the backup.

Who will/should be our QB then?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:14 PM
It's nice to try to have a positive view but it gets pretty absurd at times.

Because Matt Cassel is wearing the red does not mean it's going to work out just cause.

To this point the new regime is an abortion.

BossChief
03-14-2010, 09:15 PM
I just don't get it, what has this guy ever done. He still is today the same thing he was the first time he ever suited up for NE.

A QB who does not go through progressions, he makes 1 read and if it's not there he runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off fucking up the protection. On top of that the only passes he can consistently complete are WR screens.

to be fair, its 2 reads.

Anyone that watched the NE games from 2008 as they were replayed throughout the offseason knows that Collinsworth mentioned this all last year and what do you know? He still has the exact same problem.

In fact, he has EVERY weakness he had two years ago, he hasn't gotten better in ANY area of his game.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:16 PM
Who will/should be our QB then?

Well man I dunno we only had the 3rd pick in the draft last year and it shouldn't have been Tyson fuckin Jackson.

This is what blows my mind, the Chiefs could have easily taken a QB, got some OL, maybe a nice value defender here and there and we'd sit today in a much nicer spot as we could draft Eric Berry to be our defensive star, but no.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:17 PM
Who will/should be our QB then?

The guy wearing green and white should have been our QB.

Who will be is a question for the ages.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:17 PM
to be fair, its 2 reads.

Anyone that watched the NE games from 2008 as they were replayed throughout the offseason knows that Collinsworth mentioned this all last year and what do you know? He still has the exact same problem.

In fact, he has EVERY weakness he had two years ago, he hasn't gotten better in ANY area of his game.

When a guy is a backup for 4 years and couldn't even start for his college team, there's a reason why.

BossChief
03-14-2010, 09:18 PM
You have NO idea...

have you gotten pms too?

BossChief
03-14-2010, 09:21 PM
mecca, I meant to ask you this before but how in GODs green earth did JDB beat out Sanchez? I mean Sanchez was there for Leinart, Booty and 08 right?

What was the reason he couldn't start till his junior year?

Not taking a shot here, I honestly want to know.

evolve27
03-14-2010, 09:21 PM
Well man I dunno we only had the 3rd pick in the draft last year and it shouldn't have been Tyson ****in Jackson.

This is what blows my mind, the Chiefs could have easily taken a QB, got some OL, maybe a nice value defender here and there and we'd sit today in a much nicer spot as we could draft Eric Berry to be our defensive star, but no.

I agree, Pioli had a horrible first draft..what's your value now on C.J. Spiller?

milkman
03-14-2010, 09:24 PM
mecca, I meant to ask you this before but how in GODs green earth did JDB beat out Sanchez? I mean Sanchez was there for Leinart, Booty and 08 right?

What was the reason he couldn't start till his junior year?

Not taking a shot here, I honestly want to know.

Public relations.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 09:24 PM
He was sacked 47 times.

If the average weight of the guy who sacked him was 275 pounds, he was actually sacked 6.5 tons, or 12,925 pounds.

:D

http://i.imgur.com/rWgea.gif (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1174)

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:25 PM
have you gotten pms too?

Yes.

The immaturity and stupidity is beyond belief.

alanm
03-14-2010, 09:27 PM
LMAO

Can we give the guy more than 1 year?Yeah.. I remember how everyone was calling Green epic fail after his first year. :spock:

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:27 PM
mecca, I meant to ask you this before but how in GODs green earth did JDB beat out Sanchez? I mean Sanchez was there for Leinart, Booty and 08 right?

What was the reason he couldn't start till his junior year?

Not taking a shot here, I honestly want to know.

Sanchez was WELL ahead of Booty in Spring Practice when rape allegations against Sanchez occurred. At that point in time, Carroll benched Sanchez so that he could focus on defending himself.

Once it became clear that the allegations were unequivocally false, it was November. Sanchez played a little but obviously, the season was lost.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:28 PM
Yeah.. I remember how everyone was calling Green epic fail after his first year. :spock:

I hope you're just now reading through the thread, Alan, because this has been very well covered.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:28 PM
mecca, I meant to ask you this before but how in GODs green earth did JDB beat out Sanchez? I mean Sanchez was there for Leinart, Booty and 08 right?

What was the reason he couldn't start till his junior year?

Not taking a shot here, I honestly want to know.

Booty was the first big QB recruit that Carroll landed, he was the #1 guy 5 star dude out of Louisiana. It was almost like Carroll felt he owed it to Booty to start because he sat behind Leinart for 3 years 1 as a redshirt.

It's something people could never figure out, SC fans called for Sanchez to start Booty's senior year numerous times. What hurt him that year was he broke his hand in the summer so he couldn't compete with Booty and Carroll seemed to always value experience at the QB position.

Also the sexual assault stuff didn't help matters.

But in the end most SC fans are of the belief that Booty was a player that Carroll had a complete hardon over even to the detriment of the team.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:29 PM
I agree, Pioli had a horrible first draft..what's your value now on C.J. Spiller?

I like Spiller, I've liked him for about 4 years now, only problem is a team in this position can't really take a RB that high.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:30 PM
We're one draft away from knowing, with much accuracy, what we need to know about Pioli.

We won't know on April 25th if Pioli is a successful GM or not. That's absolutely ridiculous. At least let the damn players play and adjust to the NFL.

Remember our draft 2 years ago? Everyone said we had far and away the best draft, and the team was and is still awful.

It's a process. Give the guy a chance.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:31 PM
We won't know on April 25th if Pioli is a successful GM or not. That's absolutely ridiculous. At least let the damn players play and adjust to the NFL.

Remember our draft 2 years ago? Everyone said we had far and away the best draft, and the team was and is still awful.

It's a process. Give the guy a chance.

Really? Are you this naive?

:shake:

I should add this post to my sig.

FFFS.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 09:32 PM
We won't know on April 25th if Pioli is a successful GM or not.

Yes we will.

If he drafts anything BUT offensive linemen in the first three rounds he's obviously a retard.

And Russell Okung is a MUST.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:33 PM
Really? Are you this naive?

:shake:

I should add this post to my sig.

FFFS.

So you're ready to say Pioli is worthless after 1 season? 1 season where he inherited possibly the most talent-deprived team in the NFL?

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 09:33 PM
We won't know on April 25th if Pioli is a successful GM or not. That's absolutely ridiculous. At least let the damn players play and adjust to the NFL.

Remember our draft 2 years ago? Everyone said we had far and away the best draft, and the team was and is still awful.

It's a process. Give the guy a chance.

We'll know if he has learned from his 2009 Radio City clusterfuck, and if he possesses the mental acuity necessary to lead this franchise, yes.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 09:34 PM
We won't know on April 25th if Pioli is a successful GM or not. That's absolutely ridiculous. At least let the damn players play and adjust to the NFL.

Remember our draft 2 years ago? Everyone said we had far and away the best draft, and the team was and is still awful.

It's a process. Give the guy a chance.

We're going to know a shit ton at the end of April. For example, if we select Bulaga, you can write it in stone that Pioli is a dumb fuck who will not bring a championship to KC.

It's very much like the '09 draft in some respects. I'm in NO WAY calling Jackson a bust at this point (though indications seem to be trending this way), but we knew, immediately, that the selection was absolutely terrifyingly stupid.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 09:34 PM
Yes we will.

If he drafts anything BUT offensive linemen in the first three rounds he's obviously a retard.

And Russell Okung is a MUST.

WE MUST RE-INVENT ROAF, SHIELDS, AND GRUNNY AT ALL COSTS FTW!!!!

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:35 PM
So you're ready to say Pioli is worthless after 1 season? 1 season where he inherited possibly the most talent-deprived team in the NFL?

I'm ready to state that Pioli is a horrible talent evaluator.

45 new roster additions in 2009 and not ONE single game changer.

Schaaf and Steadman drafted them year after year and Carl with the #4 overall pick drafted a HOFer.

Pioli drafted a 3rd rounder at best.

dirk digler
03-14-2010, 09:35 PM
i wasnt either. i just said that there were some similarities in their situations in each players first season as a chief.
Posted via Mobile Device

There definitely was similarities and Green really didn't play well his first year here hence the nickname TRint.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:36 PM
If we take Bulaga, I'm going to find a new hobby.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:36 PM
We'll know if he has learned from his 2009 Radio City clusterfuck, and if he possesses the mental acuity necessary to lead this franchise, yes.

I'm not going to be naive enough to say that the Patriots dynasty was all Pioli, but the man does know what it takes to lead a successful franchise.

BryanBusby
03-14-2010, 09:36 PM
Carl also drafted Ryan fucking Sims so meh

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:37 PM
There definitely was similarities and Green really didn't play well his first year here hence the nickname TRint.

There's more to playing bad than just throwing picks, Jay Cutler threw way more picks than Cassel, even he wasn't as bad this past year as Cassel was.

Cassel literally throws some balls so poorly it makes for no one having a chance to catch it.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 09:38 PM
If we take Bulaga, I'm going to find a new hobby.
My new hobby will be extreme Pioli-hate that makes the whole Sanchez-debacle look like a walk through Disneyland.

Every.

Fucking.

Day.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:38 PM
Carl also drafted Ryan fucking Sims so meh

So?

Go ahead and tell that no one else was interested in Sims, okay?

Because that would be an outright fabrication.

Sims was a bust, but not because he was considered a reach.

Don't you know the difference?

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:39 PM
I'm ready to state that Pioli is a horrible talent evaluator.

45 new roster additions in 2009 and not ONE single game changer.

Schaaf and Steadman drafted them year after year and Carl with the #4 overall pick drafted a HOFer.

Pioli drafted a 3rd rounder at best.

Pioli doesn't solely evaluate talent. His scouts do most of the dirty work, and before the last draft he didn't fully have his team in place. I can give him a bit of a mulligan for that reason alone.

It's well documented that defensive linemen play a position in high demand and very, very rarely are successful in their rookie years. I didn't like the Tyson Jackson pick, either, but I'm not calling Pioli a failure because he made a poor draft choice.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:40 PM
Carl also drafted Ryan fucking Sims so meh

Well Carl did manage to not fuck up his first pick with the team which was also 3rd so I'll give him that.

But hey Sims Jackson, about the same really other than Sims was well thought of entering the draft and Jackson really wasn't.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:40 PM
So?

Go ahead and tell that no one else was interested in Sims, okay?

Because that would be an outright fabrication.

Sims was a bust, but not because he was considered a reach.

Don't you know the difference?

You're willing to say that Carl Peterson is a better GM than Scott Pioli?

Wow...

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:41 PM
Well Carl did manage to not fuck up his first pick with the team which was also 3rd so I'll give him that.

But hey Sims Jackson, about the same really other than Sims was well thought of entering the draft and Jackson really wasn't.

And that just goes to show you that the "draft experts" usually have no fucking clue.

BryanBusby
03-14-2010, 09:42 PM
So?

Go ahead and tell that no one else was interested in Sims, okay?

Because that would be an outright fabrication.

Sims was a bust, but not because he was considered a reach.

Don't you know the difference?

Who gives a **** if other teams were interested in Sims? Should I give Pioli a free pass because Green Bay had a lot of interest in Tyson Jackson at 9?

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:42 PM
You're willing to say that Carl Peterson is a better GM than Scott Pioli?

Wow...

To this point, what evidence is there that Pioli is any better?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:42 PM
Pioli doesn't solely evaluate talent. His scouts do most of the dirty work, and before the last draft he didn't fully have his team in place. I can give him a bit of a mulligan for that reason alone.

It's well documented that defensive linemen play a position in high demand and very, very rarely are successful in their rookie years. I didn't like the Tyson Jackson pick, either, but I'm not calling Pioli a failure because he made a poor draft choice.

:facepalm:

When you take over a team as poor as this one you do not get mulligans. The first year is extremely important. You have to start building a foundation and we got exactly jack and shit to show over a year into it.

How can you give anyone a pass for this? Has any other regime come in and been this inept in recent memory and still had good support from it's fans?

What they did would be the equivalent of trying to build your house in a swamp.

dirk digler
03-14-2010, 09:42 PM
There's more to playing bad than just throwing picks, Jay Cutler threw way more picks than Cassel, even he wasn't as bad this past year as Cassel was.

Cassel literally throws some balls so poorly it makes for no one having a chance to catch it.

I agree but Trent had some really bad games especially if you go look at the first half of that season. He was brutal. Of course the biggest difference I see is that Trent steadily improved later in the season where Cassel put up better numbers but he still throws alot of ducks.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:43 PM
And that just goes to show you that the "draft experts" usually have no fucking clue.

More of one than Scott Pioli does of running a team to this point.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:44 PM
I agree but Trent had some really bad games especially if you go look at the first half of that season. He was brutal. Of course the biggest difference I see is that Trent steadily improved later in the season where Cassel put up better numbers but he still throws alot of ducks.

When Charles went in and Chambers came aboard and the offense as a whole got better...Cassel got worse, that's the most alarming part of all of this.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 09:44 PM
More of one than Scott Pioli does of running a team to this point.

Mmm...truth. Yummy and delicious truth.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:44 PM
To this point, what evidence is there that Pioli is any better?

Regular season: 102-42, .708
Playoff wins/record: 14-3
Super Bowls won/appeared: 3 out of 4
Playoff seasons: 6
Winning seasons: 8
Losing seasons: 1

In the past six seasons, the Patriots have won an astounding 77 games in the regular season (one shy of 13 per year), and 11 more in the playoffs. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Bill Belichick's 2001 no-name club authored one of the most remarkable Super Bowl upsets in history. If the 2007 Patriots had just been able to close the deal against the Giants, the only debate would be whether that New England team is the NFL's greatest ever, not whether the Patriots are the best of the current decade. Alas, the Pats are one miraculous David Tyree helmet catch away from all of that.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/06/01/decade/index.html#ixzz0iDI1QmsZ

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 09:45 PM
We're going to know a shit ton at the end of April. For example, if we select Bulaga, you can write it in stone that Pioli is a dumb **** who will not bring a championship to KC.

It's very much like the '09 draft in some respects. I'm in NO WAY calling Jackson a bust at this point (though indications seem to be trending this way), but we knew, immediately, that the selection was absolutely terrifyingly stupid.

I'm with you on this. No excuses for doing poorly in 2009.

But I'm okay with the free agent offseason so far. And I'm hopeful that the draft will be better. He's got a lot more heads to do the evaluation. Let's just hope it works out. Until then, I can understand people's pessimism. I just don't understand why some have already completely written the book. Because you're completely right--this draft is probably the most important event in Pioli's Chiefs' career and there is absolutely no excuse to not get it right.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 09:46 PM
NEWS FLASH:

THE PATRIOTS DO NOT FUCKING COUNT OR MATTER ANYMORE.

Please, for the love of Holy Mary Motherfuck STOP WITH THAT SHIT.

YESTERDAY. PLEASE.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 09:46 PM
Pioli was not the GM in NE.

He has one year of experience. And if you compare his n00b campaign to Carl's, well, there is absolutely no comparison.

BossChief
03-14-2010, 09:46 PM
We won't know on April 25th if Pioli is a successful GM or not. That's absolutely ridiculous. At least let the damn players play and adjust to the NFL.

Remember our draft 2 years ago? Everyone said we had far and away the best draft, and the team was and is still awful.

It's a process. Give the guy a chance.

I think that his statement means that most here ARE giving him a chance. Its that at one point you have to consider the fact that the guy could just be in over his head.

All of us are die hards that are still posting at this point and even though a couple of the guys here seem like they want Pioli to fail, I'm sure that isn't the case with anybody here. Some just express themselves different than others.

We all want to win and to cheer for a winner on Sunday and have something to celebrate and be proud of.

Some are just more disappointed than others in the current direction of this team and feel like we are squandering a golden opportunity after golden opportunity to climb out of this hole we are currently in. I agree with that.

Personally, I would rather remain objective about these moves rather than drink the koolaid only to get disapointed again when they dont pan out.

I can say this, I like the over the hill guys he brought in this year over the ones we brought in last year, but that isnt sying much.

If we bomb this draft after bombing the last one and the last two free agency periods, we are doomed.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:46 PM
Just like Dayton Moore was responsible for all of the Braves success...

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:47 PM
More of one than Scott Pioli does of running a team to this point.

JFC, what were your expectations of him coming into this past season? Playoffs?

He's turned over the vast majority of this roster. This isn't Madden, so you can't just find playmakers for cheap at every position. You have to work with what is available. Knowing how many holes this team has, you can't just trade away draft picks.

We can't judge one draft class on their rookie season alone. I swear, for being such an awful franchise for so long, you think some patience could be afforded.

dirk digler
03-14-2010, 09:47 PM
When Charles went in and Chambers came aboard and the offense as a whole got better...Cassel got worse, that's the most alarming part of all of this.

I disagree. I think he stayed pretty much the same.

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:47 PM
Regular season: 102-42, .708
Playoff wins/record: 14-3
Super Bowls won/appeared: 3 out of 4
Playoff seasons: 6
Winning seasons: 8
Losing seasons: 1

In the past six seasons, the Patriots have won an astounding 77 games in the regular season (one shy of 13 per year), and 11 more in the playoffs. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Bill Belichick's 2001 no-name club authored one of the most remarkable Super Bowl upsets in history. If the 2007 Patriots had just been able to close the deal against the Giants, the only debate would be whether that New England team is the NFL's greatest ever, not whether the Patriots are the best of the current decade. Alas, the Pats are one miraculous David Tyree helmet catch away from all of that.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/06/01/decade/index.html#ixzz0iDI1QmsZ

He wasn't the GM in New England, but just for the sake of argument, what happened when he got plucked off Bill's tit and had to run a draft on his own?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:47 PM
I think that his statement means that most here ARE giving him a chance. Its that at one point you have to consider the fact that the guy could just be in over his head.

All of us are die hards that are still posting at this point and even though a couple of the guys here seem like they want Pioli to fail, I'm sure that isn't the case with anybody here. Some just express themselves different than others.

We all want to win and to cheer for a winner on Sunday and have something to celebrate and be proud of.

Some are just more disappointed than others in the current direction of this team and feel like we are squandering a golden opportunity after golden opportunity to climb out of this hole we are currently in. I agree with that.

Personally, I would rather remain objective about these moves rather than drink the koolaid only to get disapointed again when they dont pan out.

I can say this, I like the over the hill guys he brought in this year over the ones we brought in last year, but that isnt sying much.

If we bomb this draft after bombing the last one and the last two free agency periods, we are doomed.

I don't want them to fail but at the same time it's hard to get excited when you see what they've done. It's like this could have been but we got....this. Hard to get excited or really think they know what they're doing after the evidence we've been given so far.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:48 PM
Who gives a **** if other teams were interested in Sims? Should I give Pioli a free pass because Green Bay had a lot of interest in Tyson Jackson at 9?

Um, then I guess you've just missed the point about scouts and other team's evaluations.

Do you NOT remember the Chiefs sprint to the podium? The Vikings wanted Sims but the Chiefs just barely beat them out (Hooray!).

Furthermore, your speculation about Green Bay is just that: Speculation.

You can't prove a negative.

Oops, have they covered that in 11th grade yet?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:48 PM
I disagree. I think he stayed pretty much the same.

Well...his numbers say he got worse.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:48 PM
NEWS FLASH:

THE PATRIOTS DO NOT FUCKING COUNT OR MATTER ANYMORE.

Please, for the love of Holy Mary Motherfuck STOP WITH THAT SHIT.

YESTERDAY. PLEASE.

Yes, yesterday when Pioli was with the organization. To say that he has no idea how to build a franchise is fucking ridiculous.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 09:49 PM
I'm with you on this. No excuses for doing poorly in 2009.

But I'm okay with the free agent offseason so far. And I'm hopeful that the draft will be better. He's got a lot more heads to do the evaluation. Let's just hope it works out. Until then, I can understand people's pessimism. I just don't understand why some have already completely written the book. Because you're completely right--this draft is probably the most important event in Pioli's Chiefs' career and there is absolutely no excuse to not get it right.

Absolutely.

I'm looking for sensible, justifiable decisions. For example, I don't think that we should select Dez "White." But let's say we do. I'm not going to freak because you can at least rationalize the choice. Pioli obviously thinks the kid has the goods.

Now, he best be fucking right. Prove me, just some dumbass fan on the intrawebz, wrong. Should be EXTREMELY easy for a 24-time executive of the year.

Now, select Bulaga, and my give-o-shit emotional meter will be tuned to the Royals frequency.

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:49 PM
Yes, yesterday when Pioli was with the organization. To say that he has no idea how to build a franchise is fucking ridiculous.

He didn't build anything in NE.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:49 PM
He wasn't the GM in New England, but just for the sake of argument, what happened when he got plucked off Bill's tit and had to run a draft on his own?

We don't know. It's been 1 season.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:49 PM
I agree but Trent had some really bad games especially if you go look at the first half of that season. He was brutal. Of course the biggest difference I see is that Trent steadily improved later in the season where Cassel put up better numbers but he still throws alot of ducks.

Ducks?

Please point out where Green had a QB rating of 14, only to follow it up with a 38.

Again, I wasn't a fan of Green, the Green trade, etc. but FFS, the guy was head and shoulders above Cassel.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 09:50 PM
We don't know. It's been 1 season.

Tom Dimitroff disagrees.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-14-2010, 09:50 PM
Yes, yesterday when Pioli was with the organization. To say that he has no idea how to build a franchise is fucking ridiculous.

Nope. That tired shit flew out the door with the end of year one. Deal with it.

It is not valid, it does not count, and it is now of no consiquence whatso-fucking-ever.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:51 PM
He didn't build anything in NE.

This statement astounds me.

Scott Pioli gets no credit when the Patriots go on one of the greatest runs in NFL history, but gets all of the blame in his first year with the Chiefs.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:51 PM
Also I don't recall Trent Green ever saying he played a game with no errors after firing up 4 picks either.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 09:51 PM
He wasn't the GM in New England, but just for the sake of argument, what happened when he got plucked off Bill's tit and had to run a draft on his own?

Discussed ad nauseum. The failures of last draft, so far, are likely due to the stupid decision to run the draft minus the Chiefs' scouts.

That doesn't mean he'll make those same mistakes this draft now that he has everyone in place. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. We won't know until April.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 09:51 PM
This statement astounds me.

Scott Pioli gets no credit when the Patriots go on one of the greatest runs in NFL history, but gets all of the blame in his first year with the Chiefs.

If he turns out to be a colossal failure there's a lot of logic in that sequence.

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:51 PM
We don't know. It's been 1 season.

My question was "What evidence is there Pioli is any better than Peterson (paraphrased)?. So there isn't any?

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:52 PM
Tom Dimitroff disagrees.

How did the Falcons do this year?

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:52 PM
Discussed ad nauseum. The failures of last draft, so far, are likely due to the stupid decision to run the draft minus the Chiefs' scouts.

So in other words, to this point, his decisions have been EPIC FAIL.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:53 PM
My question was "What evidence is there Pioli is any better than Peterson (paraphrased)?. So there isn't any?

And my answer (paraphrased) is that the Patriots were a much better run organization with a much better record and more playoff wins and Super Bowl appearances than the Chiefs under Peterson. Is that not true?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:54 PM
I would like someone to show me another regime that was this bad after 1 year that still was even remotely given the benefit of the doubt.

What Cleveland? That's certainly the team I want to be compared to...

Mecca
03-14-2010, 09:55 PM
And my answer (paraphrased) is that the Patriots were a much better run organization with a much better record and more playoff wins and Super Bowl appearances than the Chiefs under Peterson. Is that not true?

Yes and Baltimore is a well run organization and Cleveland hired Phil Savage...how'd that go?

Just because you were part of a winning franchise does not mean you know what the fuck you are doing when you are the guy.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 09:55 PM
My question was "What evidence is there Pioli is any better than Peterson (paraphrased)?. So there isn't any?

None.

But the greater point is there isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest that he's as bad or worse. Or if he's better.

We don't know. It bothers me when homers say he's doing just fine. It bothers me when critics say he's already a mistake.

We don't know.

BryanBusby
03-14-2010, 09:55 PM
Um, then I guess you've just missed the point about scouts and other team's evaluations.

Do you NOT remember the Chiefs sprint to the podium? The Vikings wanted Sims but the Chiefs just barely beat them out (Hooray!).

Furthermore, your speculation about Green Bay is just that: Speculation.

You can't prove a negative.

Oops, have they covered that in 11th grade yet?
11th grade? Ohoho, what a burn dude.

The Vikings desperately wanting Sims is no less or more speculation than Green Bay wanting T-Jax.

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:55 PM
And my answer (paraphrased) is that the Patriots were a much better run organization with a much better record and more playoff wins and Super Bowl appearances than the Chiefs under Peterson. Is that not true?

Pioli wasn't the GM there. So that's pretty much a moot point.

alanm
03-14-2010, 09:55 PM
I love all the fake indignation regarding Cassel, as though there was ever any indication that this organization had any intention of moving him, or even not playing him. From the moment we obtained Cassel in the trade, he has been the man at arrowhead, for better or worse. This FO thinks he is the answer at that position, end of discussion. Now is that the right call? I dunno. I do know that Brady Quinn is a joke.... I'd rather have Croyle.I'd rather see Croyle put on about 15-20 lbs on and have him beat Cassel out of the job. I truly think Croyle could be a good QB if he can get past the injury bug.

dirk digler
03-14-2010, 09:56 PM
Pioli was not the GM in NE.

He has one year of experience. And if you compare his n00b campaign to Carl's, well, there is absolutely no comparison.

Pioli's job was basically the same as being the GM considering they don't have a GM job in NE.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:56 PM
Yes and Baltimore is a well run organization and Cleveland hired Phil Savage...how'd that go?

Just because you were part of a winning franchise does not mean you know what the fuck you are doing when you are the guy.

But to say Pioli hasn't done anything is idiotic.

Messier
03-14-2010, 09:56 PM
Boy, it didn't take long for Scott Pioli to be a crappy GM. Do people here want him gone for real, or is it just free agency blues?

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 09:57 PM
None.

But the greater point is there isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest that he's as bad or worse. Or if he's better.

We don't know. It bothers me when homers say he's doing just fine. It bothers me when critics say he's already a mistake.

We don't know.

If he fucks up two top-5 picks, he was a catastrophic mistake.

If.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 09:57 PM
I'd rather see Croyle put on about 15-20 lbs on and have him beat Cassel out of the job.

Hey maybe Trent Green could get in that weight room and increase his arm strength.

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:57 PM
None.

But the greater point is there isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest that he's as bad or worse. Or if he's better.

We don't know. It bothers me when homers say he's doing just fine. It bothers me when critics say he's already a mistake.

We don't know.

I don't have an argument with that. I also don't want to hear a bunch of crap about all the great things he did in New England, where they had mostly bad drafts when he was there.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 09:58 PM
Pioli's job was basically the same as being the GM considering they don't have a GM job in NE.

And Dayton Moore was a powerful executive in Atlanta.

Basically doesn't cut it.

He's had one year on his own, being the primary individual responsible for all decisions. This is what we can judge him on, and the sample size is very small.

Brock
03-14-2010, 09:58 PM
Pioli's job was basically the same as being the GM considering they don't have a GM job in NE.

Bill Belichick is the GM there if anybody is.

milkman
03-14-2010, 09:58 PM
Pioli's job was basically the same as being the GM considering they don't have a GM job in NE.

No, it wasn't.

His job in New England was the equivalent of Bill Kuharich's in KC under Carl.

Bill Bellichick was the GM.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 09:59 PM
Boy, it didn't take long for Scott Pioli to be a crappy GM. Do people here want him gone for real, or is it just free agency blues?

No, it's just the loud minority of the people on this board that have unrealistic expectations and can never be satisfied.

One moment they admit that this team was entirely talent deprived, and the next they're bemoaning the fact that it isn't fixed in 1 year.

alanm
03-14-2010, 09:59 PM
I hope you're just now reading through the thread, Alan, because this has been very well covered.I'm catching up. :thumb:

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 09:59 PM
One moment they admit that this team was entirely talent deprived, and the next they're bemoaning the fact that it isn't fixed in 1 year.

Oh my god, how many times is this going to be posted?

Seriously, it's posted in just about EVERY Pioli thread.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:00 PM
Dayton Moore is a good comparison honestly, big name, winning organization comes here and he is fail.

And yes NE's drafting history is not pretty, at least not in recent memory.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:00 PM
Oh my god, how many times is this going to be posted?

Seriously, it's posted in just about EVERY Pioli thread.

Doesn't make it any less true.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:00 PM
Pioli wasn't the GM there. So that's pretty much a moot point.

The Patriots had no GM. And as VP of Player Personnel, he was basically managing the entire scouting operations, both pro and college.

Let's not act like he was some office monkey doing people's taxes. He was the head of the entire personnel process at New England. I agree with most critics that his decisions weren't nearly as great as hyped up to be. But let's not stoop to the level of pretending he did nothing there.

His role in New England isn't much different than what he's doing in KC from a personnel side. He has to deal with some more day-to-day operations than he did in NE, I'm sure, but that's outside of the personnel process.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:00 PM
One moment they admit that this team was entirely talent deprived, and the next they're bemoaning the fact that it isn't fixed in 1 year.

These statements are not at all true, but they have served as a consistent refrain throughout Pioli's tenure.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:01 PM
No, it's just the loud minority of the people on this board that have unrealistic expectations and can never be satisfied.

One moment they admit that this team was entirely talent deprived, and the next they're bemoaning the fact that it isn't fixed in 1 year.

Asking a guy not to shit his pants and drool his first year on the job is an unrealistic expectation apparently.

Man who knew?

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:01 PM
Asking a guy not to shit his pants and drool his first year on the job is an unrealistic expectation apparently.

Man who knew?

If I could only figure out a way to do that, I'd be a millionaire

luv
03-14-2010, 10:02 PM
So. Denver has Orton at 1 and Quinn at 2?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:02 PM
Also on top of that, Pioli doesn't help himself when he goes on TV during his teams first year in preseason and goes into detail how he loves scouting and looking at players who'll get cut to help the team etc etc..

And our 1 claim is some shitbrick from NE.

dirk digler
03-14-2010, 10:02 PM
Well...his numbers say he got worse.

His TD\INT was better but he had up and down games.

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:03 PM
Dayton Moore is a good comparison honestly, big name, winning organization comes here and he is fail.

And yes NE's drafting history is not pretty, at least not in recent memory.

I guess the only difference was Moore was giving a few years before being called a failure.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:03 PM
These statements are not at all true, but they have served as a consistent refrain throughout Pioli's tenure.

What's not true? Were we a talented team in 2008-2009? Has it been more than one year since Pioli was hired?

I'm curious what everybody's solution is. Scrap it and start over again? Continue that process until we catch lightning in a bottle?

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:03 PM
If I could only figure out a way to do that, I'd be a millionaire

I'll tell you about it sometime.

Meanwhile, I'll hire you to walk my labs in the Hollywood hills, if you'd like.

milkman
03-14-2010, 10:04 PM
No, it's just the loud minority of the people on this board that have unrealistic expectations and can never be satisfied.

One moment they admit that this team was entirely talent deprived, and the next they're bemoaning the fact that it isn't fixed in 1 year.

No.

We;re bemoaning the fact that he traded for a QB that none us believed was the answer at QB.

We're bemoaning the fact that he took a 5 tec DE with the #3 overall pick, followed that up with a another 5 tec, a project corner and a RT that would more than likely have been an UDFA had the Chiefs not selected him, and traded picks to move up to take a piece of shit TE.

He shit on his first draft.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:04 PM
I'll tell you about it sometime.

Meanwhile, I'll hire you to walk my labs in the Hollywood Hills, if you'd like.

LMAO

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:05 PM
His TD\INT was better but he had up and down games.

No, it wasn't.

Last six games: 4 TD, 10 INT

Look it up.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:05 PM
I guess the only difference was Moore was giving a few years before being called a failure.

Because it's hard to comprehend the level of abuse that Royals fans have had to endure.

For a decade, the owner's explicitly stated priority was NOT to win. Fuck, most fans were happy the organization started trying.

Non-Royals fans have absolutely no fucking clue. We're talking the 49th circle of hell, folks.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:05 PM
I guess the only difference was Moore was giving a few years before being called a failure.

It takes longer to rebuild a baseball team than it does a football team, after 3 years on the job of a baseball team you should be seeing good signs of improvement with a football team you should see signs of improvement within a year.

Brock
03-14-2010, 10:06 PM
No, it's just the loud minority of the people on this board that have unrealistic expectations and can never be satisfied.

One moment they admit that this team was entirely talent deprived, and the next they're bemoaning the fact that it isn't fixed in 1 year.

It's not unrealistic to say that so far, his talent acquisition hasn't been good.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:06 PM
It takes longer to rebuild a baseball team than it does a football team, after 3 years on the job of a baseball team you should be seeing good signs of improvement with a football team you should see signs of improvement within a year.

Are you saying we have seen no signs of improvement?

Bane
03-14-2010, 10:07 PM
So. Denver has Orton at 1 and Quinn at 2?

:thumb:
Best offseason ever?
ROFL

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:07 PM
No, it wasn't.

Last six games: 4 TD, 10 INT

Look it up.

Personally I think Cassel's numbers got worse because in that part of the season he was less protected by playcalling.

Early in the year Matt Cassel was overly protected by playcalling, the Eagles game is a good example, Giants game too.

He got some stats in garbage time in both but when it mattered they called plays like he had a glass vagina and they couldn't allow him to look bad.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:07 PM
No, it's just the loud minority of the people on this board that have unrealistic expectations and can never be satisfied.

One moment they admit that this team was entirely talent deprived, and the next they're bemoaning the fact that it isn't fixed in 1 year.

You're silly

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:07 PM
It's not unrealistic to say that so far, his talent acquisition hasn't been good.

And I agree with that.

I'm not saying he had a great draft or was great in FA last year.

What I'm saying is give the guy a fucking chance before you throw him under the bus.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:08 PM
Are you saying we have seen no signs of improvement?

We're in the same spot we were before he got here, other than now we have a big contract shitbrick QB instead of a small contract shitbrick QB.

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:08 PM
These statements are not at all true, but they have served as a consistent refrain throughout Pioli's tenure.

What tenure? He has one year under his belt. Look, Pioli might be a horrible GM, we might go nowhere with him, but as I would with any GM I'm going to give him more than one season.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:08 PM
Are you saying we have seen no signs of improvement?

The offense got worse, the defense stayed the same, they found a kicker.

So yeah it was pretty much a wasted year. Can you point to one player Pioli picked up and say "FUCK YEAH!?"

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:09 PM
And I agree with that.

I'm not saying he had a great draft or was great in FA last year.

What I'm saying is give the guy a fucking chance before you throw him under the bus.

What do you think this is?

A 10 year process? Blowing an entire offseason and a top 3 draft pick are epic fuckups for a team with no talent.

Guy brought in over 40 new players and we got 2 upgrades a 30 year old WR and a kicker, man hold me back 2/45 is a hell of a ratio for acquiring talent.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:09 PM
And I agree with that.

I'm not saying he had a great draft or was great in FA last year.

What I'm saying is give the guy a fucking chance before you throw him under the bus.

Sorry, no.

The NFL stands for NOT FOR LONG.

Pioli was eaten alive his first year. Bad personnel decision after bad personnel decision (Times 45).

He better pull his head out of his ass or it's going to be a LONG five years for Chiefs fans.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:10 PM
What tenure? He has one year under his belt. Look, Pioli might be a horrible GM, we might go nowhere with him, but as I would with any GM I'm going to give him more than one season.

Tenure designates a period, not an amount of time, and I've already stated in this very thread that we have a small sample size.

dirk digler
03-14-2010, 10:10 PM
Bill Belichick is the GM there if anybody is.

No, it wasn't.

His job in New England was the equivalent of Bill Kuharich's in KC under Carl.

Bill Bellichick was the GM.

He did a little more than Kuharich did though. He was also the money man and did all the contracts along with the player personnel part. BB had final say but I doubt they disagreed a whole lot.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:10 PM
And I agree with that.

I'm not saying he had a great draft or was great in FA last year.

What I'm saying is give the guy a fucking chance before you throw him under the bus.

Tom Dimitroff

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:10 PM
We're in the same spot we were before he got here, other than now we have a big contract shitbrick QB instead of a small contract shitbrick QB.

We won 2 more games with a pretty difficult schedule. That's some improvement.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:10 PM
The offense got worse, the defense stayed the same, they found a kicker.

So yeah it was pretty much a wasted year. Can you point to one player Pioli picked up and say "**** YEAH!?"

HOW can you judge Matt Cassel???

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:11 PM
Tom Dimitroff

Maybe you missed this the first time.

What was the Falcons record this past season?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:11 PM
Guys get fired within 3 years now, he's already had one....

Wanna know how good our team is at evaluating talent?

Charles was the best offensive player on the team, dude sat on the bench and even didn't dress for a game early in the year. Larry Johnson made the Chiefs best personnel decision for them...think about that.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:12 PM
We won 2 more games with a pretty difficult schedule. That's some improvement.

Todd Haley was an abysmal game-day coach. Will he get better? I hope so.

But if '09 Haley won 4 games, pretty much any HC would have done the same. Including, gasp!, Herm motherfucking big dawg baller, Edwards.

He'd have taken this group of broke dicks to the prom just the same.

Brock
03-14-2010, 10:12 PM
Maybe you missed this the first time.

What was the Falcons record this past season?

More importantly, which team is poised to be playoff competitive over the long haul?

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:12 PM
We won 2 more games with a pretty difficult schedule. That's some improvement.

Actually, it was an easier schedule. They couldn't beat the fucking Browns. Or the Raiders. AT HOME.

milkman
03-14-2010, 10:12 PM
The offense got worse, the defense stayed the same, they found a kicker.

So yeah it was pretty much a wasted year. Can you point to one player Pioli picked up and say "**** YEAH!?"

Ryan Succop, Fuck YEAH!

:doh!:

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:12 PM
Maybe you missed this the first time.

What was the Falcons record this past season?

Are you really going to argue that?

His job in Atlanta over 2 years essentially takes Scott Pioli's job in KC over a year and rapes him in the ass with a chainsaw.

dirk digler
03-14-2010, 10:13 PM
No, it wasn't.

Last six games: 4 TD, 10 INT

Look it up.

That is what I said. Before Chambers arrived his TD\INT ratio was better but he still had up and down games.

And Chambers first game was the Jags game. From that game on Cassel had 8 TD's and 11 INT's.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:13 PM
Todd Haley was an abysmal game-day coach. Will he get better? I hope so.

But if '09 Haley won 4 games, pretty much any HC would have done the same. Including, gasp!, Herm motherfucking big dawg baller, Edwards.

He'd have taken this group of broke dicks to the prom just the same.

Haley was so bad during games he made me long for the days of Herm.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:13 PM
What do you think this is?

A 10 year process? Blowing an entire offseason and a top 3 draft pick are epic ****ups for a team with no talent.

Guy brought in over 40 new players and we got 2 upgrades a 30 year old WR and a kicker, man hold me back 2/45 is a hell of a ratio for acquiring talent.

Nobody's saying that it should be a 10-year process. We're saying that the 2009 fuck ups were inexcusable, but the 2010 offseason is the true mark of what Pioli's got. So far, I don't think he's been all that bad this offseason. But he's putting it all out on the line for the 2010 draft and he better not fuck it up.

While I wanted much better from 2009, it's not like we're married to anybody except for Tyson Jackson. Even Cassel has an out clause in 2010.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:14 PM
Todd Haley was an abysmal game-day coach. Will he get better? I hope so.

But if '09 Haley won 4 games, pretty much any HC would have done the same. Including, gasp!, Herm motherfucking big dawg baller, Edwards.

He'd have taken this group of broke dicks to the prom just the same.

So then you're admitting that, coaching aside, this team was better than the one in 2008.

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:14 PM
It takes longer to rebuild a baseball team than it does a football team, after 3 years on the job of a baseball team you should be seeing good signs of improvement with a football team you should see signs of improvement within a year.

Really? With the state the Chiefs were in I fail to see how within a year there could be a huge turn around. I'll agree that two after two we should see the improvement. One is not realistic. Yes I realize that other teams have turned around in a year, but many times it's a mirage, and the turn around ends up being a fluke.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:15 PM
So then you're admitting that, coaching aside, this team was better than the one in 2008.

No, no I'm not.

I think the '08 Chiefs would ask the '09 club how they want it.

Thigpen I to Gonzo would have been far more effective than Thigpen II to Bowe/Chambers.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:16 PM
No, no I'm not.

I think the '08 Chiefs would ask the '09 club how they want it.

Herm took the 2008 team to 2-14. You're saying that even he could have taken the 2009 team to 4-12. Therefore, the team must be better.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:16 PM
I'm sorry Pioli blew a top 3 pick and invested in Matt Cassel, regardless of whether you think hey we can get out of that deal and all that, it's still a fuckup of epic proportion. That move cost them a 2nd round pick and lead to them taking a piece of shit 3rd overall.

That is not excusable, that would be like saying, it's ok your wife cheated on you cause she didn't get pregnant.

BossChief
03-14-2010, 10:20 PM
burst post

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:21 PM
Herm took the 2008 team to 2-14. You're saying that even he could have taken the 2009 team to 4-12. Therefore, the team must be better.

Who were the best players on the '09 Chiefs?

Were they Pioli guys? Or were they the leftovers from the old regime? Should we give Scott the credit for this?

Especially for the brilliant insight to have Albert shed 85 lbs. and to make sure that Bowe and our "franchise" QB rarely worked together in training camp?

It's hard work to be really shitty in the NFL. The league is meant to go 6-10 to 9-7.

Pioli found a decent kicker and had a nice in-season pickup of Chambers. What else?

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:23 PM
Pioli found a decent kicker and had a nice in-season pickup of Chambers. What else?

You wanna know what's really scary?

Pioli wasn't even in the war room when they picked Succop. And a blind, retarded monkey could have made the decision to pick up Chambers.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:24 PM
Who were the best players on the '09 Chiefs?

Were they Pioli guys? Or were they the leftovers from the old regime? Should we give Scott the credit for this?

Especially for the brilliant insight to have Albert shed 85 lbs. and to make sure that Bowe and our "franchise" QB rarely worked together in training camp?

It's hard work to be really shitty in the NFL. The league is meant to go 6-10 to 9-7.

Pioli found a decent kicker and had a nice in-season pickup of Chambers. What else?

I actually think that in terms of this offseason's moves, we're doing okay. Made a lot of real good depth moves. We just need to bring in some playmakers and they'll have to come from the 2010 draft. He's putting it all on the line.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:25 PM
How good is a depth move when we have few starters?

If you're depth on the Chiefs roster you kinda suck.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:27 PM
We just need to bring in some playmakers

Phew. That's all, huh.

Glad the plan was to wait until year two.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:30 PM
How good is a depth move when we have few starters?

If you're depth on the Chiefs roster you kinda suck.

Getting a depth guy like Thomas Jones when your best playmaker is a guy you'd like to limit to 15 carries a game is a great move.

Getting depth players like Shaun Smith, Wiegmann, and Urban are pretty good moves because it allows you to short-term upgrade at those positions, but none of those moves will force you to have to walk into the draft with those as dire "draft now" needs.

Passing on Boldin and not even trying to bring in Ben Watson are great moves.

All these moves depend on a good draft to bring in playmakers. But i think it's good strategy to bring in a few guys who can be upgrades over our current starters as stopgaps with the hope that our draft will bring in better guys to eventually replace them. And yes, I realize there is a big "if" when it comes to whether we draft well or not.

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:31 PM
You wanna know what's really scary?

Pioli wasn't even in the war room when they picked Succop. And a blind, retarded monkey could have made the decision to pick up Chambers.

So if they have a good draft this year it's either A. anyone could have seen that was the player to get, or B. These good moves were made in spite of Pioli. Wow, it took Peterson a good six or more years of bad moves before getting this treatment. Pioli has broken some kind of record, great GM to bum in under a year.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:32 PM
All these moves depend on a good draft to bring in playmakers.

Using the draft to find playmakers.

Novel concept.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:32 PM
So if they have a good draft this year it's either A. anyone could have seen that was the player to get, or B. These good moves were made in spite of Pioli. Wow, it took Peterson a good six or more years of bad moves before getting this treatment. Pioli has broken some kind of record, great GM to bum in under a year.

If they have a good draft this year Pioli deserves full credit. I'm just saying there's shockingly little evidence that proves he knows what's he doing so far.

BryanBusby
03-14-2010, 10:33 PM
What's a playmaker? I've long forgotten what they should do. :(

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:33 PM
Phew. That's all, huh.

Glad the plan was to wait until year two.

I wish we didn't wait until 2010 to start. But it's not the end of the world. There's still plenty of reason to believe it will still work itself out.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:34 PM
So if they have a good draft this year it's either A. anyone could have seen that was the player to get, or B. These good moves were made in spite of Pioli. Wow, it took Peterson a good six or more years of bad moves before getting this treatment. Pioli has broken some kind of record, great GM to bum in under a year.

If you had replaced Derrick Thomas with Tony Mandarich I'm pretty sure Carl would have been railed on a hell of a lot sooner than he was.

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:35 PM
If they have a good draft this year Pioli deserves full credit. I'm just saying there's shockingly little evidence that proves he knows what's he doing so far.


Well, no wonder. With all this year of evidence that you have that Pioli can't draft I don't blame you.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:36 PM
Using the draft to find playmakers.

Novel concept.

It is actually a pretty novel concept, when the alternative is to sign free agents like Julius Peppers with the illusion that these are guys who are going to help you when you needed it most. For the most part, in 2 years, the Chiefs have been very quiet on the free agent front in terms of long-term contracted players.

Optimistically, I'd like to piece together a really solid 2010 draft, spend big in 2011, and then put together a solid 2011 draft. That's why I'm not in panic mode--just a different way of looking at things and I know it's not how everyone else sees it.

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:37 PM
If you had replaced Derrick Thomas with Tony Mandarich I'm pretty sure Carl would have been railed on a hell of a lot sooner than he was.

Jackson's gonna suck that bad huh? Who are the future hall of famers that we should have taken?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:38 PM
Tyson Jackson will never ever ever live up to his pick, it's not even possible.

It's like reselling you're car even if it's a day after you bought it new, you won't get what you paid for it.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:39 PM
It is actually a pretty novel concept

No it's not you fucking moron.

The objective EVERY YEAR for EVERY TEAM is to find playmakers in the draft.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:41 PM
I wish we didn't wait until 2010 to start.

ROFL

Please.

They didn't "wait" until 2010 to start. They tried and FAILED last year.

Shitty fucking draft and all the Bobby Engrams, Zach Thomases and Sean Ryans you can shake a stick at.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:41 PM
No it's not you ****ing moron.

The objective EVERY YEAR for EVERY TEAM is to find playmakers in the draft.

Thanks for the tip, buddy. I didn't realize this.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:42 PM
Thanks for the tip, buddy. I didn't realize this.

The Chiefs don't seem to realize it.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:42 PM
Thanks for the tip, buddy. I didn't realize this.

Judging by your post you certainly thought it was some stroke of genious that the Chiefs would now employ this NEW and LITTLE-USED draft strategy: FIND PLAYMAKERS!

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:43 PM
Tyson Jackson will never ever ever live up to his pick, it's not even possible.

It's like reselling you're car even if it's a day after you bought it new, you won't get what you paid for it.

Well there are alot of players who can't live up to the pick. That's different from just being bad, and you know that. It's kind to the problem with picking high, most players aren't worth the pick and a few years down the road you find out there was a player taken in the 5th round that should have been the first player picke if the draft was done over. I can't think of many players from last year that were worth the 3rd pick.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:43 PM
Nah we need some more big fat guys, that's the Pioli strategy, now that I think about it, did NE ever draft any playmakers?

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:46 PM
ROFL

Please.

They didn't "wait" until 2010 to start. They tried and FAILED last year.

Shitty ****ing draft and all the Bobby Engrams, Zach Thomases and Sean Ryans you can shake a stick at.

Sorry, misworded.

I'm not saying it was intentional. I'm saying that if optimistically things work out starting this offseason, I'm not going to get all butt-hurt about wasted opportunities in 2009. It sucks. But I just happen to care more about making sure we get it right starting now.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:47 PM
Maybe you missed this the first time.

What was the Falcons record this past season?

Well, after going 11-5 with a rookie QB, they slipped to 8-8 due to numerous injuries, including injuries to Ryan.

Are you declaring that they aren't in a position to make a playoff run in 2010, barring injuries?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:47 PM
I mean honestly did NE ever draft a playmaker that wasn't some surprise?

Like Brady in the 6th or Samuel in the 4th..

Outside of that all of their high picks are big fat guys, TE's or guys who were total bombs at the skill positions.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:49 PM
Judging by your post you certainly thought it was some stroke of genious that the Chiefs would now employ this NEW and LITTLE-USED draft strategy: FIND PLAYMAKERS!

I'm not saying it's a stroke of genius. I'm saying that a lot of teams will launch into an offseason and bring in a bunch of high-priced, overrated, long-term prospects so you can immediately hit 7-9. In the end, it's putting lipstick on a pig.

The only major free agent they brought in was Cassel. And he has an out clause after this season.

It sucks we didn't bring in better players in 2009. But it's not going to set the franchise back as much as people are suggesting. Look, I don't agree with the strategy of transforming the entire culture of the organization, including not listening to another guy's scouts. So shame on them for making those mistakes. But if they fix those mistakes in 2010 and pull off a good draft, it's time to move on.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:50 PM
Well, after going 11-5 with a rookie QB, they slipped to 8-8 due to numerous injuries, including injuries to Ryan.

Are you declaring that they aren't in a position to make a playoff run in 2010, barring injuries?

If the true measuring stick of a GM is how well his team does from year to year, then that season must be a failure, right? Maybe his team overachieved a bit in 08?

And this was after he had one year in the position to, ideally, better install his system and his guys.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 10:50 PM
Sorry, misworded.

I'm not saying it was intentional. I'm saying that if optimistically things work out starting this offseason, I'm not going to get all butt-hurt about wasted opportunities in 2009. It sucks. But I just happen to care more about making sure we get it right starting now.

I care about the 2009 draft because if it had been even average instead of ABSOLUTE GARBAGE Pioli wouldn't need to have two AMAZING drafts in a row to compensate.

They put themselves in a hole. It still matters.

Pioli isn't going to be here for 20 years. He has five years to prove he's worth an extension as GM and he spent 1/5th of that period shitting all over himself. Now the pressure is really on.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:51 PM
I mean honestly did NE ever draft a playmaker that wasn't some surprise?

Like Brady in the 6th or Samuel in the 4th..

Outside of that all of their high picks are big fat guys, TE's or guys who were total bombs at the skill positions.

Yet they still won 3 Super Bowls.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:51 PM
Getting a depth guy like Thomas Jones when your best playmaker is a guy you'd like to limit to 15 carries a game is a great move.

Getting depth players like Shaun Smith, Wiegmann, and Urban are pretty good moves because it allows you to short-term upgrade at those positions, but none of those moves will force you to have to walk into the draft with those as dire "draft now" needs.

Passing on Boldin and not even trying to bring in Ben Watson are great moves.

All these moves depend on a good draft to bring in playmakers. But i think it's good strategy to bring in a few guys who can be upgrades over our current starters as stopgaps with the hope that our draft will bring in better guys to eventually replace them. And yes, I realize there is a big "if" when it comes to whether we draft well or not.

If bringing in a 37 year old center, a 29 year-old WR that's never amounted to jackshit and a 4 time arestee is considered "upgrading the roster", I guess the other 45 roster moves speak for themselves.

I hope you take Pioli's cock out of your mouth long enough to breathe.

On second thought...

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:52 PM
Well, Okung probably going 2nd or 4th might be the best thing to happen to the Chiefs in a while. I really think they will have no choice but to draft Berry.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:52 PM
Yet they still won 3 Super Bowls.

And please explain to us what they've done since.

Oh, an SpyGate.

Oh, and winning by 3 points only.

Thanks in advance.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 10:53 PM
We're still not working all of our available options.

Herm was a fucking moron for thinking that everyone on the roster had to be a n00b, and he largely ignored FA with the start of the rebuild. Now, we're doing something similar, yet, inexplicably, assigning important roles to a select few broke dicks.

Again, let's see what April brings. Perhaps we'll all be much more optimistic in May. Tell you what, if we draft our first legit franchise QB in forever, the tone of this place will change dramatically. Dramatically.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:53 PM
Yet they still won 3 Super Bowls.

And what are they today?

An aging slow team that is fading.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:54 PM
Well, Okung probably going 2nd or 4th might be the best thing to happen to the Chiefs in a while. I really think they will have no choice but to draft Berry.

So in your expert opinion, Okung is more talented than Albert?

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:54 PM
And please explain to us what they've done since

Set an NFL record in points scored and TD passes thrown and caught.

Had an undefeated season, only failing to win a 4th Super Bowl because of a miraculous play.

Lost their franchise starting QB and still managed to go 10-6.

Messier
03-14-2010, 10:56 PM
So in your expert opinion, Okung is more talented than Albert?

You tell me, in your expert opinion is Okung better that Albert?

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:56 PM
And what are they today?

An aging slow team that is fading.

And that's Pioli's fault?

That should be blamed on the guy who replaced him.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:56 PM
Set an NFL record in points scored and TD passes thrown and caught.

Had an undefeated season, only failing to win a 4th Super Bowl because of a miraculous play.

Lost their franchise starting QB and still managed to go 10-6.

Moss, Welker, Thomas, and scores of free agents.

Aside from Tom Brady (who they DID NOT want to draft), name the huge contributors that were a result of great drafting.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:56 PM
And now the Patriots are fading because of their draft failures...look at that team, it's full of age, busts, and a severe lack of speed.

Even with Moss they are a very slow team.

Mecca
03-14-2010, 10:57 PM
And that's Pioli's fault?

That should be blamed on the guy who replaced him.

Partially the fact that they have drafted like balls for about 6 years now tends to catch up.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 10:57 PM
You tell me, in your expert opinion is Okung better that Albert?

Why should I give my opinion in this thread?

Let's hear yours because you've already got it all figured out.

chiefzilla1501
03-14-2010, 10:58 PM
We're still not working all of our available options.

Herm was a ****ing moron for thinking that everyone on the roster had to be a n00b, and he largely ignored FA with the start of the rebuild. Now, we're doing something similar, yet, inexplicably, assigning important roles to a select few broke dicks.

Again, let's see what April brings. Perhaps we'll all be much more optimistic in May. Tell you what, if we draft our first legit franchise QB in forever, the tone of this place will change dramatically. Dramatically.

I'm glad you get it, given that you argued with me on this point quite a bit in the last offseason. Nobody's saying he's guaranteed to hit a home run. We're just saying wait and see. I don't know why that's such a horrible concept.

And as you know, I was one of the biggest defenders of Herm and biggest critics of Peterson, so obviously, I totally agree with your first point too.

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 10:58 PM
Moss, Welker, Thomas, and scores of free agents.

Aside from Tom Brady (who they DID NOT want to draft), name the huge contributors that were a result of great drafting.

Who got those free agents?

Mecca
03-14-2010, 11:00 PM
If you think the Chiefs will ever spend FA money like NE did to cover drafting failures...I have some bad news for you.

Messier
03-14-2010, 11:00 PM
If bringing in a 37 year old center, a 29 year-old WR that's never amounted to jackshit and a 4 time arestee is considered "upgrading the roster", I guess the other 45 roster moves speak for themselves.

I hope you take Pioli's cock out of your mouth long enough to breathe.

On second thought...

I thought you liked the Wiegmann signing.

DeezNutz
03-14-2010, 11:01 PM
I'm glad you get it, given that you argued with me on this point quite a bit in the last offseason. Nobody's saying he's guaranteed to hit a home run. We're just saying wait and see. I don't know why that's such a horrible concept.

And as you know, I was one of the biggest defenders of Herm and biggest critics of Peterson, so obviously, I totally agree with your first point too.

Hmm...I don't recall arguing with you about this, but I was pretty fucking pissed off after last year's draft, so I was far from objective and fair, I'm sure.

I think we missed a huge opportunity, still do, but the overly emotional reaction period is over for me.

Messier
03-14-2010, 11:01 PM
Why should I give my opinion in this thread?

Let's hear yours because you've already got it all figured out.

I think Albert's fine where he is.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 11:02 PM
Who got those free agents?

The guy with the biggest credentials.

If this is your argument, you've been KO'd.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 11:03 PM
I thought you liked the Wiegmann signing.

Only if the alternative is Niswanger

Saccopoo
03-14-2010, 11:05 PM
If you think the Chiefs will ever spend FA money like NE did to cover drafting failures...I have some bad news for you.

They don't have that much money...

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 11:07 PM
They don't have that much money...

Yes they do, they just refuse to spend it on the Chiefs

MoreLemonPledge
03-14-2010, 11:08 PM
This is fucking pointless. He gets no credit for his role in the Patriots dynasty (which, according to some of you, wasn't really impressive anyway), he's a failure after 1 year, and the Chiefs will never be a successful team.

Yeah, his first year wasn't great. The players he drafted didn't make a big impact immediately. He didn't sign a big name FA. But no one can claim that this team didn't look a hell of a lot better the last few games of the season. And, ultimately, isn't that the goal, rather than them drafting the player that you're sure would be best for this team just so you can be right? Is there something wrong with having even a bit of optimism?

If this is your idea of actually being a fan of a franchise, I hate to see what you say about the ones you don't like.

ClevelandBronco
03-14-2010, 11:08 PM
I'm just now getting around to this thread because I've been listing ways to commit suicide since I heard about this.

KCDC
03-14-2010, 11:11 PM
What's a playmaker? I've long forgotten what they should do. :(

You mean like Andy Studebaker? Actually, I jest, but he made some big plays.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 11:16 PM
You mean like Andy Studebaker? Actually, I jest, but he made some big plays.

He caught a tipped interception and had another one gifted to him because the quarterback was hit as he released. He's not some amazing coverage linebacker and he showed nothing as a pass rusher.

If he was a REAL budding young playmaker as an OLB in a 3-4 he would have showed pass rush potential all year. Difficult to point to him as an example of "HOLY SHIT PIOLI FOUND SOMEONE."

And besides, Carl signed him.

DaneMcCloud
03-14-2010, 11:18 PM
He caught a tipped interception and had another one gifted to him because the quarterback was hit as he released. He's not some amazing coverage linebacker and he showed nothing as a pass rusher.

If he was a REAL budding young playmaker as an OLB in a 3-4 he would have showed pass rush potential all year. Difficult to point to him as an example of "HOLY SHIT PIOLI FOUND SOMEONE."

And besides, Carl signed him.

There's a point when you say someone is lucky and there's a point when you say someone is a playmaker.

The jury is out on Studebaker but he's leaning towards the latter.

Time will tell.

Saccopoo
03-14-2010, 11:21 PM
Yes they do, they just refuse to spend it on the Chiefs

Nobody has that much money. And there aren't that many free agents out there that would cover the drafting failures of the 21st century Peterson era.

Count Zarth
03-14-2010, 11:24 PM
There's a point when you say someone is lucky and there's a point when you say someone is a playmaker.

The jury is out on Studebaker but he's leaning towards the latter.

Time will tell.

I agree with that but to say Studebaker is leaning either way is going too far. He only saw significant time in three games last year. To me, right now, he's just a special teams player who got lucky in a game against the Steelers. That doesn't change the fact that he has a little talent, though, and should have been on the field more instead of Patriot Way.

BossChief
03-14-2010, 11:33 PM
Pioli's job was basically the same as being the GM considering they don't have a GM job in NE.
Piolis job in NE = bringing in CURRENT NFL PLAYERS to the team by trading or signing them

Dimitroffs job in NE = prepare for the draft by getting first hand knowledge of COLLEGE PLAYERS

BBs job in NE = make the final decisions on all of this and coach the players they decided on

Thats whats up!

If you think the Chiefs will ever spend FA money like NE did to cover drafting failures...I have some bad news for you.

Im sorry, who did NE spend money in free agency on again?

The only one I can remember is Adalius Thomas and that was worth it because it fit what they wanted from the position and it took a premier player from a playoff rival.

NE has been consistently good because they found VALUE in free agency, not by spending big money there.

BossChief
03-14-2010, 11:34 PM
There's a point when you say someone is lucky and there's a point when you say someone is a playmaker.

The jury is out on Studebaker but he's leaning towards the latter.

Time will tell.

word

chiefzilla1501
03-15-2010, 12:17 AM
Piolis job in NE = bringing in CURRENT NFL PLAYERS to the team by trading or signing them

Dimitroffs job in NE = prepare for the draft by getting first hand knowledge of COLLEGE PLAYERS

BBs job in NE = make the final decisions on all of this and coach the players they decided on

Thats whats up!

This is totally inaccurate.

New England had a Director of Pro Personnel. That wasn't Pioli's job. Pioli's job was to get the entire scouting network, both on the pro personnel and the college personnel side, to work in lockstep. He was essentially the go-between between the coaches and the scouts. Milkman has it right--he was essentially Bill Kuharich in New England.

The scouts don't know what they're looking for until Pioli tells them. And Pioli doesn't know what the Pats are looking for until he consults with Belichick. While Belichick was the one signing off on most of the decisions, Pioli was the guy that was getting all the info together for Belichick to sign off on. Dimitroff is the equivalent of Phil Emery. Given that Pioli is running the personnel side (while Thum is running the business side), Pioli is basically doing the same exact thing in KC that he did in New England.

Again, his role in New England from a personnel side is not a whole lot different from what he's doing in KC. People are revising his resume to make a point.

BossChief
03-15-2010, 12:37 AM
This is totally inaccurate.

New England had a Director of Pro Personnel. That wasn't Pioli's job. Pioli's job was to get the entire scouting network, both on the pro personnel and the college personnel side, to work in lockstep. He was essentially the go-between between the coaches and the scouts. Milkman has it right--he was essentially Bill Kuharich in New England.

The scouts don't know what they're looking for until Pioli tells them. And Pioli doesn't know what the Pats are looking for until he consults with Belichick. While Belichick was the one signing off on most of the decisions, Pioli was the guy that was getting all the info together for Belichick to sign off on. Dimitroff is the equivalent of Phil Emery. Given that Pioli is running the personnel side (while Thum is running the business side), Pioli is basically doing the same exact thing in KC that he did in New England.

Again, his role in New England from a personnel side is not a whole lot different from what he's doing in KC. People are revising his resume to make a point.

Its not inaccurate at all. Both are actually correct. Dimitroff was director of college scouting, Pioli was (from wiki):
He and Belichick split the duties usually held by a general manager on most other NFL teams, though Belichick had the final say.

In his tenure with the Patriots, Pioli earned promotions to director of player personnel and vice president of player personnel in 2000 and 2002, respectively. Also, Pioli earned a contract extension in 2005 after being pursued by several NFL teams to become general manager.

I did miss part of his job responsibility though and I learned something new in this, for that I thank you and milk.

We are all here to learn and display what they have learned...myself included.

T-post Tom
03-15-2010, 12:44 AM
http://www.moonbattery.com/beluga_whale.jpg

Good mass, but his arms are way too short for the position.

chiefzilla1501
03-15-2010, 12:46 AM
Its not inaccurate at all. Both are actually correct. Dimitroff was director of college scouting, Pioli was (from wiki):
He and Belichick split the duties usually held by a general manager on most other NFL teams, though Belichick had the final say.

In his tenure with the Patriots, Pioli earned promotions to director of player personnel and vice president of player personnel in 2000 and 2002, respectively. Also, Pioli earned a contract extension in 2005 after being pursued by several NFL teams to become general manager.

I did miss part of his job responsibility though and I learned something new in this, for that I thank you and milk.

We are all here to learn and display what they have learned...myself included.

Well, it is definitely more complicated because belichick was much more powerful than most. But I think it's very safe to say that the role was almost identical to Kuharich's role in KC.

Kuharich ran the entire personnel operation in KC. He managed Chuck Cook (who was KC's version of Dimitroff) and Ray Farmer who handled pro personnel. Kuharich worked with Herm, Gailey, and Gun to determine what areas were of priority and what kind of players they needed to fit within the system. He then had to figure out how to take all of this information and fit into the strategy. How much do you focus on free agency to fill this spot vs. that spot. Where do you rely on the draft? Etc.... He would then feed that information to Carl Peterson, who made the final decisions (I still think, however, that on the draft side, toward the end of the Peterson era, Kuharich was mostly calling all the shots).

Pioli's job today is not that different from what he did in New England. He was New England's version of Kuharich once he was promoted to VP. Belichick called the final shots, but he was basically taking in information that Pioli was diligently collecting and sorting out. It's been often said that Belichick and Pioli were a partnership. Belichick really trusted Pioli a lot--if Pioli told Belichick this player was good/this player was bad, he generally trusted it. That's the sense I get from everything I've seen and read about Pioli's role in New England. It's not even close to the picture some would paint it out to be where he's sitting in the office playing Scrabble. He headed up the entire personnel process, and then he fed info to Belichick who called the final shots.

HolmeZz
03-15-2010, 02:26 AM
mortreport

Very funny about Brady Quinn trade to Denver. Was talking last night w/ someone who suggested C. Weis would love to have BQ in KC.
3 minutes ago via web

Probably meant BBQ.

BossChief
03-15-2010, 02:41 AM
Well, it is definitely more complicated because belichick was much more powerful than most. But I think it's very safe to say that the role was almost identical to Kuharich's role in KC.

Kuharich ran the entire personnel operation in KC. He managed Chuck Cook (who was KC's version of Dimitroff) and Ray Farmer who handled pro personnel. Kuharich worked with Herm, Gailey, and Gun to determine what areas were of priority and what kind of players they needed to fit within the system. He then had to figure out how to take all of this information and fit into the strategy. How much do you focus on free agency to fill this spot vs. that spot. Where do you rely on the draft? Etc.... He would then feed that information to Carl Peterson, who made the final decisions (I still think, however, that on the draft side, toward the end of the Peterson era, Kuharich was mostly calling all the shots).

Pioli's job today is not that different from what he did in New England. He was New England's version of Kuharich once he was promoted to VP. Belichick called the final shots, but he was basically taking in information that Pioli was diligently collecting and sorting out. It's been often said that Belichick and Pioli were a partnership. Belichick really trusted Pioli a lot--if Pioli told Belichick this player was good/this player was bad, he generally trusted it. That's the sense I get from everything I've seen and read about Pioli's role in New England. It's not even close to the picture some would paint it out to be where he's sitting in the office playing Scrabble. He headed up the entire personnel process, and then he fed info to Belichick who called the final shots.

good post and rep has been paid.

Short Leash Hootie
03-15-2010, 05:52 AM
I liked Green, and respected his toughness, and the way he handled himself through adversity.

One thing, however, that bothered about Green was his propensity for mistakes in the red zone, or in clutch situations.

Green played great for 5 years here, but if a game was on the line, he was not a QB I wanted to have to rely on.

Exactly.

Green put up gawdy numbers but we all know that the Vermeil offense was built around the running game...

as soon as we had to be one dimensional passing the ball late in games Green fell apart...

I think in 2004 we led every game but 1, maybe 2, in the 4th quarter...and we finished 7-9...a lot of it was on the defense...but we got the ball a lot of times where our offense could have answered but didn't because we could never do anything when the defense didn't have to worry about #31...

Short Leash Hootie
03-15-2010, 05:56 AM
The thing is that Trent Green was a proven QB in the NFL before coming to KC. He started in Washington, started in St. Louis and was a well known, hard working QB that would have most certainly won a Super Bowl as the Rams starter in '99 where he was already installed as the starter.

Cassel hadn't started since high school. He was a 7th rounder that was in danger of being cut each and every year. He was sacked 47 times in NE and was helped greatly by McDaniels, Belichick, Moss and Welker.

If you strip those guys away, you have a QB that puts up a 14 QB rating.

As mentioned earlier, Trent Green may have had a bad week but the following week, he was ready to rock. And like most QB's, his success relied upon good protection and good skill players.

But the similarities end there because Cassel isn't accurate, doesn't read defenses well, holds onto the ball way too long and doesn't make good decisions on a regular basis.

well come on...

if you're going to give Green credit for Washington you have to give credit to Cassel for New England...

Green's numbers the year he started in Washington look a lot better on paper than how he actually performed...much like Cassel in New England last year.

and the Rams win the Super Bowl in 99 with Green starting, or with Warner...

I know Warner gets a ton of that credit and all but you can't tell me with that freaking team Trent Green wouldn't have done the same damn thing.

He proved it when he outplayed Warner the next year...

We can give these QB's the credit...they were good and all...but I think a ton of it has to also go to Marshall Faulk and the coaching staff...

Vermeil/Saunders/Martz/etc...had flaws...no doubt...but when it came to offense...especially Vermeil...he knew what he wanted and how to build a team...he replicated his St. Louis offense in Kansas City like it was no big deal.

the Talking Can
03-15-2010, 08:45 AM
first round QB traded for a fullback....


awesome

Von Dumbass
03-15-2010, 09:56 AM
Michael Lombardi's thoughts on the Quinn trade.

I’m not a Brady Quinn fan and have been writing for weeks that the Browns would dump him. Yesterday’s trade with the Broncos for fullback Peyton Hillis was basically a dump. Yes, I know some fans might think Hillis is a valuable commodity, but his lack of blocking and production without the ball makes him very iffy to even make the Browns roster next season. Hillis might look good occasionally with the ball in his hands, but his lack of overall toughness without it has to be in question.

No, I’m not a Brady Quinn fan, but I’m a huge Josh McDaniels fan, and if anyone can bring out the best in Quinn, it’s McDaniels. If McDaniels can make Matt Cassell successful, there has to be hope for Quinn. The Broncos gain a player at a position of need without any significant cost. Now McDaniels can keep the pressure on Kyle "Pro Bowl" Orton and decide if Quinn has the skills to fit into his system. This shouldn’t change the Broncos’ approach in the draft, nor will it change the Browns’


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Diner-morning-news-Is-LT-too-old-for-the-Jets.html

DaWolf
03-15-2010, 09:59 AM
Michael Lombardi's thoughts on the Quinn trade.



http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Diner-morning-news-Is-LT-too-old-for-the-Jets.html

And here are his thoughts on Quinn himself:

Iíve been writing online at the Post and talking on NFL Network about why I feel Brady Quinn is not a quality NFL starter and why the Browns ultimately will find another quarterback. But thereís one diehard Quinn fan (not my son) who sends me absurd emails about how he thinks Quinn is the next Dan Marino and how Iím an idiot for not recognizing his talents. Thereís no way to change this manís mind -- or at least make him think he might be wrong.

Iím all for loyalty to a player, but this person is over the top (trust me, heís called me a lot worse than an idiot). He doesnít lack confidence in Quinn, even though he has never coached or scouted the position professionally. He believes in his heart of hearts that Quinn will start in Cleveland next season. At first, I thought this fan had to be a Quinn relative, but thatís not the case. I understand being loyal, but I donít understand blind loyalty. Why is it so difficult to see that Quinn is not an NFL starter? The other question is how did Quinn cultivate this blind, obsessive loyalty?

The year Quinn was drafted, there was concern around the NFL about his overall accuracy on every level ó short, medium and long. In fact, his workout was not very impressive, and the reason he slipped in the first round was because of his lack of accuracy. Quinn finished his college career with a 58-percent completion rate, which improved the last two seasons under Charlie Weisí tutelage. In college, the completion percentage for quarterbacks should high because of the famed bubble screens that are prevalent since linemen can be downfield on forward passes. So no quality college quarterback should ever be below 65 percent. Once he entered the NFL, the Browns thought they had their guy for the future, but in the short term, Derek Anderson played well and led the Browns to a 10-win non-playoff season. As his career unfolded and the hopes built for Quinn to be the savior, his lack of accuracy, rhythm and decision-making doomed his performances. When given the chance to start, Quinn failed to deliver, and now the Browns are moving on -- probably without him.

Now Mike Holmgren has taken over, and he evaluated Quinn coming out of college and in his stint as the Browns starter. To no oneís surprise, Holmgren has started to bring in quarterbacks he feels more comfortable with in his task of rebuilding the Browns. Quinn has been on the trade market for a while ó as I reported here and on NFL Network. The Browns are bringing in former Panthers quarterback Jake Delhomme for a visit today and made the move for former Seattle backup Seneca Wallace, clear indications theyíre not willing or want to give Quinn the starting job. And they have even admitted privately that if they sign Delhomme, they might just dump Quinn.

The Browns quarterback position is in flux and will not be settled until after the draft, where most NFL insiders suspect theyíll draft one ó probably very early. But one thing I know for sure is that my email box tomorrow will be filled with comments on the greatness of Brady Quinn.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Diner-morning-news-Who-believes-in-Brady-Quinn.html

Von Dumbass
03-15-2010, 10:04 AM
Heck I'm not a big Brady Quinn supporter. I think he sucks balls. But Josh McDaniels is a QB Guru and he can make chicken salad out of chicken shit (Cassel)

Chiefs=Good
03-15-2010, 10:11 AM
Heck I'm not a big Brady Quinn supporter. I think he sucks balls. But Josh McDaniels is a QB Guru and he can make chicken salad out of chicken shit (Cassel)

yep this, just like he made Orton into a qb who led his team to the playof.. oh wait.....

Von Dumbass
03-15-2010, 10:18 AM
yep this, just like he made Orton into a qb who led his team to the playof.. oh wait.....

Orton played good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs. The OL/DL broke down late in the season.

talastan
03-15-2010, 10:19 AM
Orton played good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs. The OL/DL broke down late in the season.

Yep like to the tune of 259 yds rushing!!! :D :p

Brock
03-15-2010, 10:19 AM
Orton played good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs. The OL/DL broke down late in the season.

Derrick Johnson thinks you're funny.

Bane
03-15-2010, 10:21 AM
yep this, just like he made Orton into a qb who led his team to the playof.. oh wait.....

Well they did win the AFCW!...Oh wait.......ROFL
They had a better 2nd half than we did!....Oh wait......ROFL
Fukk Knowshit and all his lil Donkfukk supporters and his Twatter bullshit!

keg in kc
03-15-2010, 10:21 AM
To quote myself from the other day in a "Quinn to KC" rumor thread...

Why in the world would anybody want Quinn at this point?

Sooo.....Great trade! I fully endorse it!

DaneMcCloud
03-15-2010, 10:23 AM
well come on...

if you're going to give Green credit for Washington you have to give credit to Cassel for New England...

Green's numbers the year he started in Washington look a lot better on paper than how he actually performed...much like Cassel in New England last year.

and the Rams win the Super Bowl in 99 with Green starting, or with Warner...

I know Warner gets a ton of that credit and all but you can't tell me with that freaking team Trent Green wouldn't have done the same damn thing.

He proved it when he outplayed Warner the next year...

We can give these QB's the credit...they were good and all...but I think a ton of it has to also go to Marshall Faulk and the coaching staff...

Vermeil/Saunders/Martz/etc...had flaws...no doubt...but when it came to offense...especially Vermeil...he knew what he wanted and how to build a team...he replicated his St. Louis offense in Kansas City like it was no big deal.

This is just unbelievably WRONG and silly.

In 15 games in Washhington, Green threw for 3,441, 23TD's and 11 INT's. His QB rating was a decent 81.8.

He followed that up in 2000 with more than 2,000 yards in FIVE STARTS, along with a 101.8 QB rating.

We all know how well Trent performed in KC from 2001-2005, so it's not even necessary to post those numbers.

Cassel and Green are not similar in any way, shape or form.

:shake:

Chiefs=Good
03-15-2010, 10:25 AM
Orton played good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs. The OL/DL broke down late in the season.

I like you, you say funny things... :thumb:

keg in kc
03-15-2010, 10:25 AM
Cassel and Green are not similar in any way, shape or form.You fucking liar.













Their names both have 10 letters.

The Bad Guy
03-15-2010, 10:25 AM
How could the all-world OL the Broncos have break down?

-King-
03-15-2010, 10:28 AM
Orton played good enough to get the Broncos into the playoffs. The OL/DL broke down late in the season.

http://i50.tinypic.com/27y1wfr.gif

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-15-2010, 10:28 AM
This is just unbelievably WRONG and silly.

In 15 games in Washhington, Green threw for 3,441, 23TD's and 11 INT's. His QB rating was a decent 81.8.

He followed that up in 2000 with more than 2,000 yards in FIVE STARTS, along with a 101.8 QB rating.

We all know how well Trent performed in KC from 2001-2005, so it's not even necessary to post those numbers.

Cassel and Green are not similar in any way, shape or form.

:shake:

Matt Cassel is a piece of shit.*


*Wow, that IS much easier! :evil:

Chiefs=Good
03-15-2010, 10:29 AM
How could the all-world OL the Broncos have break down?

Cladys not a future HOFer!! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNN!!!

Von Dumbass
03-15-2010, 10:34 AM
How could the all-world OL the Broncos have break down?

Losing a Pro Bowl caliber RT for half the season is never a good thing for an OL. Our interior line was 30 pounds to light for the system we were trying to run. We did a decent job in pass protection for most of the season but were dreadful at run blocking.

vailpass
03-15-2010, 10:35 AM
I don't even think he's an upgrade over Cassel. I think Brodie Croyle is better than Quinn.

:LOL:

Von Dumbass
03-15-2010, 10:36 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/27y1wfr.gif

Only Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning had more games with a QB Rating over 90.00 than Kyle Orton.

Chiefs=Good
03-15-2010, 10:37 AM
Losing a Pro Bowl caliber RT for half the season is never a good thing for an OL. Our interior line was 30 pounds to light for the system we were trying to run. We did a decent job in pass protection for most of the season but were dreadful at run blocking.

Maybe Knowmos just not that good.. Hes no Jamaal Charles thats for sure...

Chiefs=Good
03-15-2010, 10:40 AM
Only Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning had more games with a QB Rating over 90.00 than Kyle "Pro Bowl" Orton.

if you guys draft a LT and a guard or something he will be superbowl bound!

Von Dumbass
03-15-2010, 10:42 AM
Maybe Knowmos just not that good.. Hes no Jamaal Charles thats for sure...

64% of Moreno's yards came after first contact. He is worlds better than Jamal Charles. Jamal Charles is just fast and he won't hold up the entire season next year.