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donkhater
03-17-2010, 07:03 AM
Nearly One-Third of Doctors Could Leave Medicine if Health-Care Reform Bill Passes, According to Survey Reported in New England Journal of Medicine
Tuesday, March 16, 2010
By Christopher Neefus

(CNSNews.com) - Nearly one-third of all practicing physicians may leave the medical profession if President Obama signs current versions of health-care reform legislation into law, according to a survey published in the latest issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

The survey, which was conducted by the Medicus Firm, a leading physician search and consulting firm based in Atlanta and Dallas, found that a majority of physicians said health-care reform would cause the quality of American medical care to “deteriorate” and it could be the “final straw” that sends a sizeable number of doctors out of medicine.

More than 29 percent (29.2) percent of the nearly 1,200 doctors who responded to the survey said they would quit the profession or retire early if health reform legislation becomes law. If a public option were included in the legislation, as several liberal Senators have indicated they would like, the number would jump to 45.7 percent.

The medical journal published the results in its March and April edition, saying: “While a sudden loss of half of the nations physicians seems unlikely, a very dramatic decrease in the physician workforce could become a reality as an unexpected side effect of health reform.”

Kevin Perpetua, managing partner for the Medicus Firm, reported that a reform bill could be “the final straw” in an already financially precarious industry.

“Many physicians feel that they cannot continue to practice if patient loads increase while pay decreases,” Perpetua said in the study. “The overwhelming prediction from physicians is that health reform, if implemented inappropriately, could create a detrimental combination of circumstances, and result in an environment in which it is not possible for most physicians to continue practicing medicine.”

“With an average debt of $140,000, and many graduates approaching a quarter of a million dollars in school loans, being a doctor is becoming less and less feasible,” Perpetua said. “Health-care reform and increasing government control of medicine may be the final straw that causes the physician workforce to break down.”

The survey shows that many doctors already find their situations difficult:

-- 36 percent said that they would not recommend medicine as a profession to others, regardless of whether health-care reform passes;
-- another 27 percent would still recommend medicine as a career, but not if the current reform proposal passes.

In total, 63 percent of doctors would not recommend the profession after health-care reform passes. Just 12 percent do not recommend becoming a physician now but think they would if current reform proposals pass.

Primary-care physicians, those who work in the critical fields of family and internal medicine, not only feel that they would want to quit but that they might be cast out of medicine. 46.3 percent of those physicians said that they would either want to leave medicine or that they would be “forced out” by the changes to the system.

Despite all the opposition to the bill as it stands, only a little more than 3 percent of respondents said the status quo was best, with the vast majority (62.7 percent) saying they believe changes are needed.

The same 62.7 percent said they wanted reforms made, but that they “should be implemented in a more targeted, gradual way, as opposed to the sweeping overhaul that is in (the) legislation.”

Andrea Santiago, a spokeswoman for the Medicus Firm, said those numbers were the most striking.

“Please allow me to emphasize that 96 percent of the physicians surveyed in our report are in favor of health reform, in some form or fashion,” she told CNSNews.com in an e-mail. “To me, the fact that so many physicians surveyed want health reform, but relatively few are in favor of the current legislation, was one of the most significant, telling results.”

Congressional Democratic leaders, meanwhile, have said that doctors favor the bill and are part of an “unprecedented coalition” of doctors rooting for its passage. The claim is based on the American Medical Association’s endorsement of the legislation in Congress.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2008 there were 661,400 physicians and surgeons within the United States. Of that number, 250,000 are members of the American Medical Association (AMA) -- and nearly 100,000 of those are medical students.

Santiago explained the AMA could not claim to represent all doctors, nor perhaps could any other group, and said the potentially massive shortage of physicians has stayed largely out of the debate because public figures have been trying to speak for doctors instead of speaking to them.

“I think the reason it hasn’t become a big issue in the political debate is maybe because no one else has really thought about the effects of health reform on the physician workforce. Or, maybe people didn’t want to think about it, but as recruiters we can’t help but think about it and take notice,” she said.

“If you are not talking to physicians every day about their career plans, it may not occur to someone that it would even be an issue. Plus, many public figures, media, and organizations are speaking for doctors in professional associations and groups, proclaiming ‘doctors want this.’ Without surveying each and every doctor, no one can claim that all doctors want this particular version of health reform, including us.”

Santiago said one problem with a comprehensive bill was all the uncertainty about its effects that comes along with it.

“When you’re on the phone with doctors each and every day, discussing their career plans, like we are as recruiters, you start to notice hot-buttons that are related to their career decisions, and health reform was increasingly and repeatedly coming up as an issue that was causing doctors apprehension when making career plans,” Santiago explained.

“Many seemed frustrated by it. Part of it, I think, is fear of the unknown -- the current health reform bill is so large and all-encompassing, no one really knows for sure what will happen when/if this bill passes, so how does a physician make major career decisions when so much is hanging in the balance?”

Dave Lane
03-17-2010, 07:23 AM
Sure they will all quit. But the world needs more plumbers so its ok. :spock:

Brainiac
03-17-2010, 07:31 AM
I used to be a moderate who always voted for the best candidate regardless of party.

After this I will always vote straight-ticket Republican. I now see how much damage the Libs can cause when we have a radical President and a liberal congress.

MGRS13
03-17-2010, 08:06 AM
bullshit.

headsnap
03-17-2010, 08:24 AM
bullshit.

you're right, that one third does seem a bit low...

BucEyedPea
03-17-2010, 08:25 AM
you're right, that one third does seem a bit low...

If a public option it's higher per what I read. Like 47%!

InChiefsHell
03-17-2010, 08:26 AM
I'm guessing the ones polled were NOT the dog and pony show doctors that Barry had at the White House with the white coats?

CoMoChief
03-17-2010, 08:52 AM
Let's see here....

When Dr's come out of med school, they have monsterous bills/student loans to pay off.

There's also insurance policies they have to buy in order to practice their profession in case of malpractice lawsuits etc. The shit is expensive.

In this ObamaCare bill, they are also charging penalty fees for primary care physicians that send their patients to other "specialists", disregarding the fact whether that patient needs the actual extra care or not, the ObamaCare bill will not look at circumstance, but rather the "number" of patients they send over to specialists Dr's. It will cut their pay 5-10% depending on the # of patients they refer to other specialists.

So how does this improve the quality of care??? Well, it doesn't.....at all. It ruins the quality of care because now Dr's will have to make a moral decision to send a patient over to a specialist because the patient needs it, meanwhile that Dr, receives a penalty/pay cut in doing so.

therefore, the quality of care goes down, Dr's won't think this is worth the trouble and will quit practice, so called specialist Dr's won't see as many patients as they normally would, thus putting them out of business/or they would leave their practice as well.

Not to mention all of these bums/immigrants/illegals that are now covered.....30-50 million more people are being covered at the tax payers expense (these people getting covered mostly don't pay ANY taxes at all....in a sense they are getting a free lunch)..so more people, less Dr's, say hello to rationizing HC.

fan4ever
03-17-2010, 09:21 AM
Well with the direction this country is trying to be directed, the government will be taking the kids with the best SAT scores and forcing them into medicine...or they won't receive a student loan.

I'm being sarcastic, but only a little.

patteeu
03-17-2010, 10:31 AM
I used to be a moderate who always voted for the best candidate regardless of party.

After this I will always vote straight-ticket Republican. I now see how much damage the Libs can cause when we have a radical President and a liberal congress.

Good for you. I hope more people open their eyes to the fact that no matter how bad the Republicans are, the democrats are far worse.

InChiefsHell
03-17-2010, 10:40 AM
Good for you. I hope more people open their eyes to the fact that no matter how bad the Republicans are, the democrats are far worse.

I hope more Republicans realize how much they suck and will change for the better...I'm tired of holding my nose to vote.

The Mad Crapper
03-17-2010, 10:41 AM
you're right, that one third does seem a bit low...

Ha ha! Suckers!

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Coin_ExactChange_160.gif

Hopey Change™

Brainiac
03-17-2010, 10:44 AM
bullshit.
That is spoken like someone who votes to receive all of the "free stuff" and has no idea where the free stuff comes from or what it takes to produce it.

The Mad Crapper
03-17-2010, 10:52 AM
That is spoken like someone who votes to receive all of the "free stuff" and has no idea where the free stuff comes from or what it takes to produce it.

Hopey Change™

patteeu
03-17-2010, 11:22 AM
I hope more Republicans realize how much they suck and will change for the better...I'm tired of holding my nose to vote.

Sorry, man. That part will never change, except perhaps in isolated instances.

MGRS13
03-17-2010, 01:17 PM
That is spoken like someone who votes to receive all of the "free stuff" and has no idea where the free stuff comes from or what it takes to produce it.

No it's spoken by someone who didn't believe hollywood libs would leave the US if Bush was re-elected doesn't believe Rush will leave if Health care is passed and doesn't belive some one will give up being a doctor if this bill passes. Christ don't be such a tool.

donkhater
03-17-2010, 01:29 PM
No it's spoken by someone who didn't believe hollywood libs would leave the US if Bush was re-elected doesn't believe Rush will leave if Health care is passed and doesn't belive some one will give up being a doctor if this bill passes. Christ don't be such a tool.

Really? I personally know two family practicioners who have kids college aged. Their kids both want to go to medical school. Both doctors advised against it. Said that if they were hell-bent on getting into medicine go into cosmetic surgery or something that insurance doesn't pay for.

I realize this is only anecdotal, but if the Messiah can do it, so can I.

donkhater
03-17-2010, 01:30 PM
No it's spoken by someone who didn't believe hollywood libs would leave the US if Bush was re-elected doesn't believe Rush will leave if Health care is passed and doesn't belive some one will give up being a doctor if this bill passes. Christ don't be such a tool.

That New England Journal of Medicine. What a bastion of right wing nuts.:spock:

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 01:36 PM
I'm just pretty much going ot wait for someone to expose this study as completely fraudulent.

The fact that it was posted on CNS, a renouned bullshit factory, is not encouraging.

donkhater
03-17-2010, 01:43 PM
I'm just pretty much going ot wait for someone to expose this study as completely fraudulent.

The fact that it was posted on CNS, a renouned bullshit factory, is not encouraging.

While it may not be scientifically accurate, are you saying that it isn't probable? What would doctors gain from an additonal 30 million patients and rules regulating their income without addressing tort reform?

I'd think about retiring early, go into private practice and accept cash only as a part-time endeavor.

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 01:47 PM
While it may not be scientifically accurate, are you saying that it isn't probable?

Exactly. There's about a 99% chance that this study is not scientifically accurate, and is therefore useless.

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying it won't happen. Period.

This is tinfoil hat shit that I'd expect from Taco John.

vailpass
03-17-2010, 02:25 PM
bullshit.

New England Journal of Medicine or you: which is a more credible source on the medical profession?

vailpass
03-17-2010, 02:26 PM
Exactly. There's about a 99% chance that this study is not scientifically accurate, and is therefore useless.

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying it won't happen. Period.

This is tinfoil hat shit that I'd expect from Taco John.

New England Journal of Medicine or you: who knows more about the medical profession?

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 02:32 PM
New England Journal of Medicine or you: who knows more about the medical profession?

I'm just going to pretty much wait this out.

vailpass
03-17-2010, 02:34 PM
I'm just going to pretty much wait this out.

I can see why.

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 02:39 PM
I can see why.

The fact that it's unreasonable, unprecendented, and reported by CNS but not by any mainstream outlet even so far as Fox News that I know of?

Yeah, I'm going to wait it out.

fan4ever
03-17-2010, 02:49 PM
The fact that it's unreasonable, unprecendented, and reported by CNS but not by any mainstream outlet even so far as Fox News that I know of?

Yeah, I'm going to wait it out.

Yeah, I'm not comfortable with that. "Is that light in the tunnel coming at me a train or a guy on a bike...I think I'll wait it out instead of stepping off the track".

I can't think of how a national healthcare system would positively impact someone to want to become a doctor.

Chief Henry
03-17-2010, 02:49 PM
My doctor is within 7 years of r'ment. He told me face to face that he would retire
before that if national health care became law.

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 02:53 PM
Yeah, I'm not comfortable with that. "Is that light in the tunnel coming at me a train or a guy on a bike...I think I'll wait it out instead of stepping off the track".

When it's CNS that's single-handedly reporting it (which, given a scan of the major cable channel sites, that's it), what I'm hearing is a bicycle bell.

Now it's possible that that bicycle bell is a 300 ton cargo train.

But most likely it's just a guy on a bike yelling "I'M A TRAAAAAAIN."

That's CNS for you.

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 02:54 PM
My doctor is within 7 years of r'ment. He told me face to face that he would retire
before that if national health care became law.

Well I think that is a game changer right there.

Chief Henry
03-17-2010, 02:59 PM
Well I think that is a game changer right there.

My doctor could beat up your doctor :D

How does Obama know whats BEST for me and my family ?

fan4ever
03-17-2010, 03:17 PM
When it's CNS that's single-handedly reporting it (which, given a scan of the major cable channel sites, that's it), what I'm hearing is a bicycle bell.

Now it's possible that that bicycle bell is a 300 ton cargo train.

But most likely it's just a guy on a bike yelling "I'M A TRAAAAAAIN."

That's CNS for you.

I see your point but what I'm saying is, no matter who's reporting this, that if you look at the situation national healthcare would create, it's hard to imagine it being anything but a de-incentive to go into that profession considering the cost/work/time. Perhaps we'll have to bribe qualified students to go into that field of study by paying for their education...making national healthcare even more of tax burden. It's just not a scenario IMO that plays out well.

orange
03-17-2010, 03:23 PM
That New England Journal of Medicine. What a bastion of right wing nuts.:spock:

New England Journal of Medicine or you: which is a more credible source on the medical profession?

It's on the NEJM CAREERS page - where it was PLACED by the Medicus firm, a doctor recruiting outfit.

"The survey, which was conducted by the Medicus Firm, a leading physician search and consulting firm based in Atlanta and Dallas,"

It's right there in the OP - the second paragraph in fact. Something tells me you didn't read it.

...

NEJM spokeswoman confirms: Survey has nothing to do with the "original research" published in The New England Journal of Medicine
Media Matters for America contacted The New England Journal of Medicine and received confirmation from spokesperson Jennifer Zeis that the study had "nothing to do with the New England Journal of Medicine's original research." Zeis also made clear that the study "was not published by the New England Journal of Medicine."

http://mediamatters.org/research/201003170046

...

In fact, it's a three-month old survey and I'm pretty sure we already talked about it here when it was first released.

banyon
03-17-2010, 03:31 PM
So, what are all these doctors going to do? Take a pay cut of $120,000 or so every year and go to work for Walmart as greeters out of just pure spite? Yeah, that will help pay off the medical loans? :rolleyes:

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 03:32 PM
My doctor could beat up your doctor :D

How does Obama know whats BEST for me and my family ?

Probably the same way you know what's best for the 30 million uninsured.

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 03:34 PM
NEJM spokeswoman confirms: Survey has nothing to do with the "original research" published in The New England Journal of Medicine
Media Matters for America contacted The New England Journal of Medicine and received confirmation from spokesperson Jennifer Zeis that the study had "nothing to do with the New England Journal of Medicine's original research." Zeis also made clear that the study "was not published by the New England Journal of Medicine."

http://mediamatters.org/research/201003170046

ROFL

Oooooooooooooh MAN. I love DC.

Turns out it was a man on bicycle, fan4ever.

Donkhater -- stop reading CNS. Leave that to HCF.

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:34 PM
So, what are all these doctors going to do? Take a pay cut of $120,000 or so every year and go to work for Walmart as greeters out of just pure spite? Yeah, that will help pay off the medical loans? :rolleyes:

What's the difference if they take a pay cut by changing professions or take a pay cut due to Obamacare?

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:36 PM
Probably the same way you know what's best for the 30 million uninsured.

This is just ignorant. Beyond words ignorant. I don't claim to know what is good for 30 mil uninsured. I do claim to know what is good for me. And that is Obama out of my health care. Let the other 30 mil figure out what is best for them. Perhaps they need to dump the ipods, internet, xbox and such???

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 03:40 PM
This is just ignorant. Beyond words ignorant. I don't claim to know what is good for 30 mil uninsured. I do claim to know what is good for me. And that is Obama out of my health care. Let the other 30 mil figure out what is best for them. Perhaps they need to dump the ipods, internet, xbox and such???

How do you claim to know what's best for doctors?

banyon
03-17-2010, 03:41 PM
These guys want to make political claim, but do it in a way that has the aura of plausible objectivity, even though the claim is absurd.

I know "let's put a classified ad in an important medical journal and then we can plausibly imply (though not directly state) that it was approved by the reputable source."

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:41 PM
These guys want to make political claim, but do it in a way that has the aura of plausible objectivity, even though the claim is absurd.

I know "let's put a classified ad in an important medical journal and then we can plausibly imply (though not directly state) that it was approved by the reputable source."

The Dems seem to do it all the time.

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:42 PM
How do you claim to know what's best for doctors?

How do you or Obama claim to know what's best for doctors? Obviously medicare isn't what is best for doctors or they wouldn't be cutting their medicare patients at an increasing rate.

I think if you listen to real, actual doctors they will tell you what is best for them.

banyon
03-17-2010, 03:43 PM
What's the difference if they take a pay cut by changing professions or take a pay cut due to Obamacare?

Well, I think they will still earn substantially more as doctors in "Obamacare" than as Wal-Mart greeters. (see other countries with the dreaded "public option" to show that the salaries are not all that out of line, and we're not even getting the public option).

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 03:43 PM
The Dems seem to do it all the time.

ROFL

What grab bag of vacuous Limbaugh talking points did you pull this one from?

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 03:44 PM
How do you or Obama claim to know what's best for doctors? Obviously medicare isn't what is best for doctors or they wouldn't be cutting their medicare patients at an increasing rate.

I think if you listen to real, actual doctors they will tell you what is best for them.

Neither one of us know what's best for doctors.

So I guess we should both stop talking about it forever, or keep talking about it anyway.

Tell you what, in that spirit, if I don't see another post of yours on healthcare reform, I will stop talking about it too, just to mirror your militant intellectual honesty.

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:45 PM
Well, I think they will still earn substantially more as doctors in "Obamacare" than as Wal-Mart greeters. (see other countries with the dreaded "public option" to show that the salaries are not all that out of line, and we're not even getting the public option).

So now a doctor can only become a Wal-Mart greeter??? JFC, banyon

banyon
03-17-2010, 03:45 PM
The Dems seem to do it all the time.

When was the last time they placed a classified ad and then referred to it as if the objective publication had published it instead?

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:46 PM
Neither one of us know what's best for doctors.

So I guess we should both stop talking about it forever, or keep talking about it anyway.

Tell you what, in that spirit, if I don't see another post of yours on healthcare reform, I will stop talking about it too, just to mirror your militant intellectual honesty.

Shove it

banyon
03-17-2010, 03:46 PM
So now a doctor can only become a Wal-Mart greeter??? JFC, banyon

Do you think there are a plethora of high-paying jobs out there for this mass exodus of doctors to fill? Have you not been following the economy for the last year? Haven't you in fact been continually b*tching about it?

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 03:47 PM
Shove it

I hope it works out, too. We'll see how long you go.

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Do you think there are a plethora of high-paying jobs out there for this mass exodus of doctors to fill? Have you not been following the economy for the last year? Haven't you in fact been continually b*tching about it?

Sure. They have enough money to do practically whatever they want to do. Just like you fucking lawyers.

Chief Henry
03-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Probably the same way you know what's best for the 30 million uninsured.

I take responsibilty for ME and MY FAMILY...Obama wants to change what I have and so do you. Screw you and Obama.

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 03:51 PM
I take responsibilty for ME and MY FAMILY...Obama wants to change what I have and so do you. Screw you and Obama.

So, you want to keep a fiscally poisonous healthcare system in tact? Yes or no?

petegz28
03-17-2010, 03:59 PM
So, you want to keep a fiscally poisonous healthcare system in tact? Yes or no?

This bill doesn't kill the poison. It just infects the system with a different kind of poison.

Direckshun
03-17-2010, 04:01 PM
This bill doesn't kill the poison. It just infects the system with a different kind of poison.

But you'd change the current system if you could, right? What would you favor?

I'm not asking for the whole thing, just give me a basic one- or two-sentence description of what you'd do to change our healthcare system.

Chief Henry
03-17-2010, 04:08 PM
So, you want to keep a fiscally poisonous healthcare system in tact? Yes or no?

You really are ignorant ! Keep your grubby hands away from me and my family. I know whats good for me and my family.

Your question is of no value because you want to lump everyone into the same plan. Thats what will happen over time. One provider with thousands of fewer doctors.

The current system needs some changes, but not through a 2700 page
cluster **** like whats being shoved down our throat.

Like I said, stay the hell away from me and my family with your liberal mish mash and national health care. YOU OR OBAMA DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOVE YOUR CRAP DOWN MY FAMILIES FACE. IF THIS PASSES, IT WILL ULTIMATLEY HAVE A NEGATIVE EFFECT TO ME AND MY FAMILY WHEN IT COMES TO OUR CARE AND BENEFITS.

petegz28
03-17-2010, 04:10 PM
But you'd change the current system if you could, right? What would you favor?

I'm not asking for the whole thing, just give me a basic one- or two-sentence description of what you'd do to change our healthcare system.

I've only said this a million fucking times already..

1. Knock down state line issues
2. Eliminate worker provided insurance and move it all to the individual level
3. TORT reform and elimination of the need for doctors to overdiagnose for no other reason than to stay out of court
4. Allow pre-existng conditions but at higher rates
5. Actually fix the waste and abuse in medicare
6. electronic medical records
7. Focused health care. Which means your doctor has everything you do go through him. That means if you go to a specialist and the specialist prescribes you medication it has to be checked with your primary physician to avoid excess and often contradicting or unneeded medications
8. Get the fucking illegals out of the system

It's pretty fucking simple and involves little government interference.


But if you think the answer is to charge people with a pre-existing condition the same as someone who is healthy and visits the doctor for only regular checkups you are smoking ghetto crack. And that is exactly what Obama is proposing.

banyon
03-17-2010, 04:16 PM
Sure. They have enough money to do practically whatever they want to do. Just like you ****ing lawyers.

Well, I guess if we've dispensed with practical realities and substituted emotional outrage, then I think our coversational exchange is at a terminus.

petegz28
03-17-2010, 04:24 PM
Well, I guess if we've dispensed with practical realities and substituted emotional outrage, then I think our coversational exchange is at a terminus.

Yeah, going from a doctor to a Wal-Mart greeter is really practical. Realisticaly speaking of course. :)

vailpass
03-17-2010, 04:34 PM
So, you want to keep a fiscally poisonous healthcare system in tact? Yes or no?

Fiscally poisonous to whom? Do you currently have health care coverage?

Chief Faithful
03-17-2010, 04:44 PM
I've only said this a million ****ing times already..

1. Knock down state line issues
2. Eliminate worker provided insurance and move it all to the individual level
3. TORT reform and elimination of the need for doctors to overdiagnose for no other reason than to stay out of court
4. Allow pre-existng conditions but at higher rates
5. Actually fix the waste and abuse in medicare
6. electronic medical records
7. Focused health care. Which means your doctor has everything you do go through him. That means if you go to a specialist and the specialist prescribes you medication it has to be checked with your primary physician to avoid excess and often contradicting or unneeded medications
8. Get the ****ing illegals out of the system

It's pretty ****ing simple and involves little government interference.


But if you think the answer is to charge people with a pre-existing condition the same as someone who is healthy and visits the doctor for only regular checkups you are smoking ghetto crack. And that is exactly what Obama is proposing.

You realize this bill is not about improving health care, reducing cost, or making it more accessible, right? Even the President has started calling it Healthcare Insurance Reform.

This whole bill is about the role of government, power, and the desire to beat the Republicans.

Chief Henry
03-17-2010, 04:55 PM
You realize this bill is not about improving health care, reducing cost, or making it more accessible, right? Even the President has started calling it Healthcare Insurance Reform.

This whole bill is about the role of government, power, and the desire to beat the Republicans and to save Obamas bacon .

added to your post

fan4ever
03-17-2010, 05:17 PM
Turns out it was a man on bicycle, fan4ever.

I guess you're not getting my point; use your logic...and rely less on the credibility of what others are writing.

banyon
03-17-2010, 05:33 PM
Yeah, going from a doctor to a Wal-Mart greeter is really practical. Realisticaly speaking of course. :)

That was my point, though there was hyperbole involved, which you mistakenly took literally. But the point remains that there is not a demand for alternative jobs for these people to go to that would pay them anything close to what they make now, so it would be monumentally stupid.

Gary
03-17-2010, 07:24 PM
Table 1. Standardized Comparison of Medical Specialties, in U.S. Dollars

Specialty US Average Salary Canada Average Salary (n/1.212)
Family Medicine $164,952 $167,064
Int. Medicine $170,889/ $169,450 $248,721
(hospitalist)
Ob/Gyn $253,160 $261,412
Gen. Surgery $278,433 $247,375
Anesthesia $309,019 $205,441
Urology $317,778 $279,982


In general, the income differences between U.S. and Canadian physicians are not vast. Subspecialists do make less money in Canada, although they are still earning high salaries; additionally, primary care physicians are actually making more money in Canada than in the U.S., a force that might help cut down on this country’s current shortage of primary care doctors.

Any drop in income a physician might experience under a single-payer system would be mitigated by a drastic reduction in practice costs. For instance, the average malpractice premium for an Ob/Gyn, the medical specialty with the highest malpractice rates, was $195,000 in Florida for 20045. Comparatively, in the most expensive province in Canada for 2008, the malpractice rate for an Ob/Gyn was $33,563.28 annually, or $161,000 less than Florida’s6.

References:
5. Obstetrics and Gynecology 2005; 105
6. The Canadian Medical Protective Association Fee Schedule for 2008

ROYC75
03-17-2010, 07:34 PM
How long before we become a 3rd world country ?

Our AAA rating is in danger and that will make it tougher to recover, it will take 100 years to undo what Obo and his cronies are doing to our country.

pikesome
03-18-2010, 05:06 AM
For instance, the average malpractice premium for an Ob/Gyn, the medical specialty with the highest malpractice rates, was $195,000 in Florida for 20045. Comparatively, in the most expensive province in Canada for 2008, the malpractice rate for an Ob/Gyn was $33,563.28 annually, or $161,000 less than Florida’s6.

There are some major difference between Canada's malpractice situation and here. And there are not necessarily part of being single payer. I'm not sure we want to go down the same route they have. This article has an explanation:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece

|Zach|
03-18-2010, 05:13 AM
I heard this is where I drop some convenient anecdote that nobody can refute that backs up my viewpoints.

|Zach|
03-18-2010, 05:16 AM
How long before we become a 3rd world country ?



How long do you think?

donkhater
03-18-2010, 08:12 AM
We're inching closer to a Banana Republic. If the percentage of government-employed workers increases like it has been over the last 10 years, we'll cross over to that soon.

mlyonsd
03-18-2010, 09:45 AM
We're inching closer to a Banana Republic. If the percentage of government-employed workers increases like it has been over the last 10 years, we'll cross over to that soon.

Government workers already receive higher wages than the private sector so I'm pretty sure we're getting really really close, if not already there.

vailpass
03-18-2010, 09:58 AM
I heard this is where I drop some convenient anecdote that nobody can refute that backs up my viewpoints.

So Zach, what do you do for medical insurance?

Gary
03-18-2010, 09:39 PM
There are some major difference between Canada's malpractice situation and here. And there are not necessarily part of being single payer. I'm not sure we want to go down the same route they have. This article has an explanation:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece

Some interesting quotes from the article:

"But malpractice lawsuits account for less than 1 percent of the U.S. health care tab. The same is true in Canada."

"The trends we're seeing comparing our data to the American data is that the frequency of litigation against physicians has been progressively falling over the last 10 years,'' Gray says.

"Despite the push for tort reform, the facts don't warrant what Public Citizen, a nonpartisan research group, calls the "politically charged hysteria surrounding medical malpractice litigation.''

"The number of U.S. malpractice payments in 2008 was the lowest since creation of the federal National Practitioner Data Bank, which has tracked payments since 1990. And the average payment — about $326,000 — was the smallest in a decade."

I still agree that tort reform is an issue, but it is also being used as a smoke screen for other more significant contributors to escalating health care costs.

Gary
03-18-2010, 09:43 PM
There are some major difference between Canada's malpractice situation and here. And there are not necessarily part of being single payer. I'm not sure we want to go down the same route they have. This article has an explanation:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece

Based on that article and the numbers presented, wouldn't that be an argument for doctors being in favor of system change?

bobbymitch
03-18-2010, 10:13 PM
I can't speak for all doctors, but I can tell you about my orthopedist. The group that he is in has 8 physicians and not one does backs any more. Why? Lack of reimbursement. He did not mention malpractice and we did not ask. In fact, the number of back specialists has dropped throughout the county.

Unless a physician has enough to retire on, he will just switch to another, more lucrative, field. Some specialties could get real scarce or strictly private pay.

He did mention that he was nervous about patients and their willingness to wait for corrective surgery, for whatever reason. It could be waiting for their deductibles to diminish or monetary. When they just can't stand their condition, what would have been an easy recovery will take forever and may not ever be returned to "normal" again and their ultimate costs would be higher.

|Zach|
03-19-2010, 03:22 AM
So Zach, what do you do for medical insurance?

I get it through a trade organization.

http://www.ppa.com/images/template/header-logo.jpg