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View Full Version : Other Sports Who is the greatest/best/MVP baseball player of this generation?


BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 11:17 AM
Not going to define what is "greatest" or "the best". Use your own criteria.

Who would you pick first to start a team?
Who has the best overall game?
Who hit the mostr home runs?
Who had the best intangibles? Was clutch?

whatever your criteria, vote accordingly. I think there are 4 players that stand out from all others of this generation.

Pujols
ARod
Bonds
Griffey Jr.

Deberg_1990
03-17-2010, 11:18 AM
Toss up between ARod and Pujols.

booyaf2
03-17-2010, 11:19 AM
Give me Poo Holes. Even though he's just getting started compared to the other 3.

L.A. Chieffan
03-17-2010, 11:19 AM
Future Yankee HOF, Albert Pujols.

Deberg_1990
03-17-2010, 11:26 AM
Not going to define what is "greatest" or "the best". Use your own criteria.

Who would you pick first to start a team?
Who has the best overall game?
Who hit the mostr home runs?
Who had the best intangibles? Was clutch?

whatever your criteria, vote accordingly. I think there are 4 players that stand out from all others of this generation.

Pujols
ARod
Bonds
Griffey Jr.


You left off Alex Gordon

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 11:27 AM
Give me Poo Holes. Even though he's just getting started compared to the other 3.9 straigt season of at least....300 average, 100 RBI's and 30 homers. Never been done, not by Mantle, Dimaggio, no one.

<TABLE class="sortable stats_table" id=batting_standard><THEAD><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffa" onmouseout=uhl(this);><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=left table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="0">Year</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" onmouseover="Tip('Player’s age at midnight of June 30th of that year')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="1">Age</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="2">Tm</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('League
AL - American League (1901-present)
NL - National League (1876-present)
AA - American Association (1882-1891)
UA - Union Association (1884)
PL - Players League (1890)
FL - Federal League (1914-1915)
NA - National Association (1871-1875)')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="3">Lg</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Played or Pitched')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="4">G</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Plate Appearances
Estimated using AB + BB + HBP + SF + SH,
missing catcher interferences.
When this color click for a summary of each PA.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="5">PA</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('At Bats')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="6">AB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Scored/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="7">R</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Hits/Hits Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="8">H</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Doubles Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="9">2B</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Triples Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="10">3B</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Home Runs Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="11">HR</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Batted In')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="12">RBI</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Stolen Bases')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="13">SB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Caught Stealing')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="14">CS</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Bases on Balls/Walks')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="15">BB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Strikeouts')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="16">SO</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="17">BA</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="18">OBP</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="19">SLG</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="20">OPS</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player’s ballpark(s)')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="21">OPS+</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Total Bases
Singles + 2 x Doubles + 3 x Triples + 4 x Home Runs.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="22">TB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Double Plays Grounded IntoOnly includes standard 6-4-3, 4-3, etc. double plays.
First tracked in 1933.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="23">GDP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Times Hit by a Pitch.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="24">HBP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Sacrifice Hits (Sacrifice Bunts)')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="25">SH</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Sacrifice Flies
First tracked in 1954.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="26">SF</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Intentional Bases on Balls
First tracked in 1955.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="27">IBB</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Position
’*’ indicates position played in 2/3rds of team games,
’/’ less than 10 games played.')" align=left table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="28">Pos</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" onmouseover="Tip('Summary of how player did in awards voting that year.
GG - Gold Glove
SS - Silver Slugger
MVP - Most Valuable Player
CYA - Cy Young Award
ROY - Rookie of the Year')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="29">Awards</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2001 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2001</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2001.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2001.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>161</TD><TD align=right>676</TD><TD align=right>590</TD><TD align=right>112</TD><TD align=right>194</TD><TD align=right>47</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>37</TD><TD align=right>130</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>69</TD><TD align=right>93</TD><TD align=right>.329</TD><TD align=right>.403</TD><TD align=right>.610</TD><TD align=right>1.013</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>360</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=left>5379/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200107100.shtml),MVP-4 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2001.shtml#NLmvp),RoY-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2001.shtml#NLroy),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2001)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2002 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2002</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>675</TD><TD align=right>590</TD><TD align=right>118</TD><TD align=right>185</TD><TD align=right>40</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>34</TD><TD align=right>127</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>72</TD><TD align=right>69</TD><TD align=right>.314</TD><TD align=right>.394</TD><TD align=right>.561</TD><TD align=right>.955</TD><TD align=right>151</TD><TD align=right>331</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=left>*753/D96</TD><TD align=left>MVP-2 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2002.shtml#NLmvp)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2003 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2003.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2003.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>685</TD><TD align=right>591</TD><TD align=right>137</TD><TD align=right>212</TD><TD align=right>51</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>43</TD><TD align=right>124</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>79</TD><TD align=right>65</TD><TD align=right>.359</TD><TD align=right>.439</TD><TD align=right>.667</TD><TD align=right>1.106</TD><TD align=right>187</TD><TD align=right>394</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=left>*73/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200307150.shtml),MVP-2 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2003.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2003)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2004 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=right>24</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>154</TD><TD align=right>692</TD><TD align=right>592</TD><TD align=right>133</TD><TD align=right>196</TD><TD align=right>51</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>46</TD><TD align=right>123</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>84</TD><TD align=right>52</TD><TD align=right>.331</TD><TD align=right>.415</TD><TD align=right>.657</TD><TD align=right>1.072</TD><TD align=right>172</TD><TD align=right>389</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=left>*3/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200407130.shtml),MVP-3 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2004.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2004)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2005 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=right>25</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>161</TD><TD align=right>700</TD><TD align=right>591</TD><TD align=right>129</TD><TD align=right>195</TD><TD align=right>38</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>41</TD><TD align=right>117</TD><TD align=right>16</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>97</TD><TD align=right>65</TD><TD align=right>.330</TD><TD align=right>.430</TD><TD align=right>.609</TD><TD align=right>1.039</TD><TD align=right>168</TD><TD align=right>360</TD><TD align=right>19</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=left>*3</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200507120.shtml),MVP-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.shtml#NLmvp)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2006 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=right>26</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>143</TD><TD align=right>634</TD><TD align=right>535</TD><TD align=right>119</TD><TD align=right>177</TD><TD align=right>33</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>49</TD><TD align=right>137</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>92</TD><TD align=right>50</TD><TD align=right>.331</TD><TD align=right>.431</TD><TD align=right>.671</TD><TD align=right>1.102</TD><TD align=right>178</TD><TD align=right>359</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=left>*3</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200607110.shtml),MVP-2 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.shtml#NLmvp),GG (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/gold_glove_nl.shtml#2006)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2007 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2007</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2007.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2007.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>158</TD><TD align=right>679</TD><TD align=right>565</TD><TD align=right>99</TD><TD align=right>185</TD><TD align=right>38</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>32</TD><TD align=right>103</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>99</TD><TD align=right>58</TD><TD align=right>.327</TD><TD align=right>.429</TD><TD align=right>.568</TD><TD align=right>.997</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>321</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=left>*3</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200707100.shtml),MVP-9 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.shtml#NLmvp)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2008 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2008</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2008.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2008.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>148</TD><TD align=right>641</TD><TD align=right>524</TD><TD align=right>100</TD><TD align=right>187</TD><TD align=right>44</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>37</TD><TD align=right>116</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>104</TD><TD align=right>54</TD><TD align=right>.357</TD><TD align=right>.462</TD><TD align=right>.653</TD><TD align=right>1.114</TD><TD align=right>190</TD><TD align=right>342</TD><TD align=right>16</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>34</TD><TD align=left>*3/D4</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200807150.shtml),MVP-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2008)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2009 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2009</TD><TD align=right>29</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2009.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2009.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>160</TD><TD align=right>700</TD><TD align=right>568</TD><TD align=right>124</TD><TD align=right>186</TD><TD align=right>45</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>47</TD><TD align=right>135</TD><TD align=right>16</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>115</TD><TD align=right>64</TD><TD align=right>.327</TD><TD align=right>.443</TD><TD align=right>.658</TD><TD align=right>1.101</TD><TD align=right>188</TD><TD align=right>374</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>44</TD><TD align=left>*3/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200907140.shtml),MVP-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2009)</TD></TR></TBODY><TFOOT><TR class=" stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left colSpan=4>9 Seasons</TD><TD align=right>1399</TD><TD align=right>6082</TD><TD align=right>5146</TD><TD align=right>1071</TD><TD align=right>1717</TD><TD align=right>387</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>366</TD><TD align=right>1112</TD><TD align=right>61</TD><TD align=right>30</TD><TD align=right>811</TD><TD align=right>570</TD><TD align=right>.334</TD><TD align=right>.427</TD><TD align=right>.628</TD><TD align=right>1.055</TD><TD align=right>172</TD><TD align=right>3230</TD><TD align=right>180</TD><TD align=right>69</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>55</TD><TD align=right>198</TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD></TR><TR class="normal_text stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left colSpan=4>162 Game Avg. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/bat_glossary.shtml#162_avg)</TD><TD align=right>162</TD><TD align=right>704</TD><TD align=right>596</TD><TD align=right>124</TD><TD align=right>199</TD><TD align=right>45</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>42</TD><TD align=right>129</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>94</TD><TD align=right>66</TD><TD align=right>.334</TD><TD align=right>.427</TD><TD align=right>.628</TD><TD align=right>1.055</TD><TD align=right>172</TD><TD align=right>374</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD></TR></TFOOT></TABLE>

Pasta Giant Meatball
03-17-2010, 11:28 AM
Albert's consistency is just staggering.

Von Dumbass
03-17-2010, 11:28 AM
Griffey Jr. When he was healthy he was the best baseball player ever. He is also an American and Pujols probably lied about his age and is at least 5 years older than he claims.

Deberg_1990
03-17-2010, 11:29 AM
ARod has played more "demanding" positions that Pujols.

SS and 3rd.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 11:29 AM
Post Season

<TABLE class="sortable stats_table" id=batting_postseason><THEAD><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffa" onmouseout=uhl(this);><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=left table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="0">Year</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" onmouseover="Tip('Player’s age at midnight of June 30th of that year')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="1">Age</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="2">Tm</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('League
AL - American League (1901-present)
NL - National League (1876-present)
AA - American Association (1882-1891)
UA - Union Association (1884)
PL - Players League (1890)
FL - Federal League (1914-1915)
NA - National Association (1871-1875)')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="3">Lg</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="4">Series</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="5">Opp</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" onmouseover="Tip('Series Result for Team
Did the team with the series or not?')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="6">Rslt</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Played or Pitched')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="7">G</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Plate Appearances
Estimated using AB + BB + HBP + SF + SH,
missing catcher interferences.
When this color click for a summary of each PA.')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="8">PA</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('At Bats')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="9">AB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Scored/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="10">R</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Hits/Hits Allowed')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="11">H</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Doubles Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="12">2B</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Triples Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="13">3B</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Home Runs Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="14">HR</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Batted In')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="15">RBI</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Stolen Bases')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="16">SB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Caught Stealing')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="17">CS</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Bases on Balls/Walks')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="18">BB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Strikeouts')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="19">SO</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="20">BA</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="21">OBP</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="22">SLG</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="23">OPS</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Total Bases
Singles + 2 x Doubles + 3 x Triples + 4 x Home Runs.')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="24">TB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Double Plays Grounded IntoOnly includes standard 6-4-3, 4-3, etc. double plays.
First tracked in 1933.')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="25">GDP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Times Hit by a Pitch.')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="26">HBP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Sacrifice Hits (Sacrifice Bunts)')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="27">SH</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Sacrifice Flies
First tracked in 1954.')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="28">SF</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Intentional Bases on Balls
First tracked in 1955.')" align=middle table_number="2" sorttable_columnindex="29">IBB</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2001</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2001.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2001.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="1">NLDS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2001_NLDS2.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>ARI</TD><TD align=left>L</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>18</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>.111</TD><TD align=right>.200</TD><TD align=right>.278</TD><TD align=right>.478</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2002</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="1">NLDS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2002_NLDS2.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>ARI</TD><TD align=left>W</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>.300</TD><TD align=right>.462</TD><TD align=right>.500</TD><TD align=right>.962</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2002.02">2002</TD><TD align=right csk="22.02">22</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="2">NLCS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2002_NLCS.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>SFG</TD><TD align=left>L</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=right>19</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>.263</TD><TD align=right>.364</TD><TD align=right>.474</TD><TD align=right>.837</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR class="blank_table partial_table" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2003"></TD><TD align=right csk="2003"></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=right>24</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="1">NLDS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2004_NLDS1.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>LAD</TD><TD align=left>W</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>18</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>.333</TD><TD align=right>.444</TD><TD align=right>.733</TD><TD align=right>1.178</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2004.02">2004</TD><TD align=right csk="24.02">24</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="2">NLCS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2004_NLCS.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>HOU</TD><TD align=left>W</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>32</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>.500</TD><TD align=right>.563</TD><TD align=right>1.000</TD><TD align=right>1.563</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2004.03">2004</TD><TD align=right csk="24.03">24</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="3">WS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2004_WS.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>BOS</TD><TD align=left>L</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>.333</TD><TD align=right>.412</TD><TD align=right>.467</TD><TD align=right>.878</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=right>25</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="1">NLDS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2005_NLDS1.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>SDP</TD><TD align=left>W</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>.556</TD><TD align=right>.692</TD><TD align=right>.778</TD><TD align=right>1.470</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2005.02">2005</TD><TD align=right csk="25.02">25</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="2">NLCS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2005_NLCS.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>HOU</TD><TD align=left>L</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>25</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>.304</TD><TD align=right>.320</TD><TD align=right>.565</TD><TD align=right>.885</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=right>26</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="1">NLDS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2006_NLDS2.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>SDP</TD><TD align=left>W</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>16</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>.333</TD><TD align=right>.375</TD><TD align=right>.600</TD><TD align=right>.975</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2006.02">2006</TD><TD align=right csk="26.02">26</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="2">NLCS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2006_NLCS.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NYM</TD><TD align=left>W</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>29</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>.318</TD><TD align=right>.483</TD><TD align=right>.500</TD><TD align=right>.983</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>4</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2006.03">2006</TD><TD align=right csk="26.03">26</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="3">WS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2006_WS.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>DET</TD><TD align=left>W</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>.200</TD><TD align=right>.429</TD><TD align=right>.467</TD><TD align=right>.895</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD></TR><TR class="blank_table partial_table" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left csk="2008"></TD><TD align=right csk="2008"></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2009</TD><TD align=right>29</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2009.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2009.shtml)</TD><TD align=left csk="1">NLDS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2009_NLDS1.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>LAD</TD><TD align=left>L</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>.300</TD><TD align=right>.462</TD><TD align=right>.300</TD><TD align=right>.762</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD></TR></TBODY><TFOOT><TR class=" stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left colSpan=7>6 Seasons (12 Series)</TD><TD align=right>56</TD><TD align=right>239</TD><TD align=right>199</TD><TD align=right>39</TD><TD align=right>64</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>36</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>36</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=right>.322</TD><TD align=right>.431</TD><TD align=right>.578</TD><TD align=right>1.009</TD><TD align=right>115</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>12</TD></TR></TFOOT></TABLE>

Chocolate Hog
03-17-2010, 11:30 AM
Bud Selig.

Rooster
03-17-2010, 11:30 AM
Griffey Jr. When he was healthy he was the best baseball player ever. He is also an American and Pujols probably lied about his age and is at least 5 years older than he claims.

Pujols is Irish, right? :D

SDChiefs
03-17-2010, 11:30 AM
Kid Griff FTW!!!!

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 11:34 AM
Griffey Jr. When he was healthy he was the best baseball player ever. He is also an American and Pujols probably lied about his age and is at least 5 years older than he claims.Pujols is an American citzen dude. Said becoming a American citzen was the proudest moment in his life.

2009 stats for a "35" year old baseball player.

.327 Batting Average
135 RBI's
47 Homer runs
124 Runs scored
.658 Slugging %
1.01 On base Slugging %

oldandslow
03-17-2010, 11:40 AM
Griffey Jr. When he was healthy he was the best baseball player ever. He is also an American and Pujols probably lied about his age and is at least 5 years older than he claims.

Griffey's stats don't match pujols. Both are Americans. Proof on the age claim? He sure is hitting the hell out of the ball for a 35 or 36 year old. And finally...you're an idiot.

Consistent1
03-17-2010, 11:43 AM
I voted Bonds which won't be popular. Once he kicked it in that 92 season, and he hadn't exactly sucked before that, his OPS was un-****ing-real through 2004. You just can't deny it. I would rather have guys making that cash have pride and get offended when people are doing certain things. He proved his ****ing point. He could have added on to his stats if he hadn't gotten such a bad rap. He should have been about at about 825 with a continued decent OPS over 2-3 more seasons IMO.

RJ
03-17-2010, 11:49 AM
I picked Pujols. And no, I'm not a Cards fan.

DrRyan
03-17-2010, 11:55 AM
Griffey Jr. When he was healthy he was the best baseball player ever. He is also an American and Pujols probably lied about his age and is at least 5 years older than he claims.

Willie Mays disagrees with this post.

Demonpenz
03-17-2010, 11:56 AM
Bonds. Has all the numbers, including speed, and a tough position.

CoMoChief
03-17-2010, 11:57 AM
Niefi Perez

CoMoChief
03-17-2010, 12:00 PM
Seriously it's hard not to mention a pre-injured Ken Griffey Jr. Had he not gotten the inj bug, who knows what his numbers would be now. He's gone through a 10-yr dark age of injuries, which could have given him another 300+ HR's than he already has. Not to mention he played one of the hardest positions in baseball in CF.

Pujols is the better hitter though, may be the best pure hitter ever before its all over. But he started later and Griffey was killing the ball and dominating the league at a much younger age.

Valiant
03-17-2010, 12:04 PM
Griffey's stats don't match pujols. Both are Americans. Proof on the age claim? He sure is hitting the hell out of the ball for a 35 or 36 year old. And finally...you're an idiot.

I voted Griffey, just because I hate all the prick Cards fans.. It is sad that Albert went to them, because he is twice as good as all those other players put together..

As for the age thing, talk to some of his former mates from Fort..

ClevelandBronco
03-17-2010, 12:04 PM
Enough has been revealed about MLB players to keep me from caring any longer.

Valiant
03-17-2010, 12:06 PM
Seriously it's hard not to mention a pre-injured Ken Griffey Jr. Had he not gotten the inj bug, who knows what his numbers would be now. He's gone through a 10-yr dark age of injuries, which could have given him another 300+ HR's than he already has. Not to mention he played one of the hardest positions in baseball in CF.

Pujols is the better hitter though, may be the best pure hitter ever before its all over. But he started later and Griffey was killing the ball and dominating the league at a much younger age.

Karma for him leaving Seattle.. His swing is/was a thing of beauty..

Swanman
03-17-2010, 12:07 PM
9 straigt season of at least....300 average, 100 RBI's and 30 homers. Never been done, not by Mantle, Dimaggio, no one.

<TABLE class="sortable stats_table" id=batting_standard><THEAD><TR class="" onmouseover=hl(this); style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffa" onmouseout=uhl(this);><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=left table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="0">Year</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" onmouseover="Tip('Player’s age at midnight of June 30th of that year')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="1">Age</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="2">Tm</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('League

AL - American League (1901-present)

NL - National League (1876-present)

AA - American Association (1882-1891)

UA - Union Association (1884)

PL - Players League (1890)

FL - Federal League (1914-1915)

NA - National Association (1871-1875)')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="3">Lg</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Played or Pitched')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="4">G</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Plate Appearances

Estimated using AB + BB + HBP + SF + SH,

missing catcher interferences.

When this color click for a summary of each PA.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="5">PA</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('At Bats')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="6">AB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Scored/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="7">R</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Hits/Hits Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="8">H</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Doubles Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="9">2B</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Triples Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="10">3B</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Home Runs Hit/Allowed')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="11">HR</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Batted In')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="12">RBI</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Stolen Bases')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="13">SB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Caught Stealing')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="14">CS</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Bases on Balls/Walks')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="15">BB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Strikeouts')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="16">SO</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Hits/At Bats

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA

per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="17">BA</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA

per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="18">OBP</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Total Bases/At Bats or

(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA

per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="19">SLG</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('On-Base + Slugging Percentages

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA

per team game played')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="20">OPS</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('OPS+

100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]

Adjusted to the player’s ballpark(s)')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="21">OPS+</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Total Bases

Singles + 2 x Doubles + 3 x Triples + 4 x Home Runs.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="22">TB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Double Plays Grounded IntoOnly includes standard 6-4-3, 4-3, etc. double plays.

First tracked in 1933.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="23">GDP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Times Hit by a Pitch.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="24">HBP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Sacrifice Hits (Sacrifice Bunts)')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="25">SH</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Sacrifice Flies

First tracked in 1954.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="26">SF</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Intentional Bases on Balls

First tracked in 1955.')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="27">IBB</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc" onmouseover="Tip('Position

’*’ indicates position played in 2/3rds of team games,

’/’ less than 10 games played.')" align=left table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="28">Pos</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" onmouseover="Tip('Summary of how player did in awards voting that year.

GG - Gold Glove

SS - Silver Slugger

MVP - Most Valuable Player

CYA - Cy Young Award

ROY - Rookie of the Year')" align=middle table_number="1" sorttable_columnindex="29">Awards</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2001 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2001</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2001.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2001.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>161</TD><TD align=right>676</TD><TD align=right>590</TD><TD align=right>112</TD><TD align=right>194</TD><TD align=right>47</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>37</TD><TD align=right>130</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>69</TD><TD align=right>93</TD><TD align=right>.329</TD><TD align=right>.403</TD><TD align=right>.610</TD><TD align=right>1.013</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>360</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=left>5379/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200107100.shtml),MVP-4 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2001.shtml#NLmvp),RoY-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2001.shtml#NLroy),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2001)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2002 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2002</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2002.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>675</TD><TD align=right>590</TD><TD align=right>118</TD><TD align=right>185</TD><TD align=right>40</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>34</TD><TD align=right>127</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>72</TD><TD align=right>69</TD><TD align=right>.314</TD><TD align=right>.394</TD><TD align=right>.561</TD><TD align=right>.955</TD><TD align=right>151</TD><TD align=right>331</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=left>*753/D96</TD><TD align=left>MVP-2 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2002.shtml#NLmvp)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2003 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2003.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2003.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>685</TD><TD align=right>591</TD><TD align=right>137</TD><TD align=right>212</TD><TD align=right>51</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>43</TD><TD align=right>124</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>79</TD><TD align=right>65</TD><TD align=right>.359</TD><TD align=right>.439</TD><TD align=right>.667</TD><TD align=right>1.106</TD><TD align=right>187</TD><TD align=right>394</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=left>*73/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200307150.shtml),MVP-2 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2003.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2003)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2004 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=right>24</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2004.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>154</TD><TD align=right>692</TD><TD align=right>592</TD><TD align=right>133</TD><TD align=right>196</TD><TD align=right>51</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>46</TD><TD align=right>123</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>84</TD><TD align=right>52</TD><TD align=right>.331</TD><TD align=right>.415</TD><TD align=right>.657</TD><TD align=right>1.072</TD><TD align=right>172</TD><TD align=right>389</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=left>*3/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200407130.shtml),MVP-3 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2004.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2004)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2005 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=right>25</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2005.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>161</TD><TD align=right>700</TD><TD align=right>591</TD><TD align=right>129</TD><TD align=right>195</TD><TD align=right>38</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>41</TD><TD align=right>117</TD><TD align=right>16</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>97</TD><TD align=right>65</TD><TD align=right>.330</TD><TD align=right>.430</TD><TD align=right>.609</TD><TD align=right>1.039</TD><TD align=right>168</TD><TD align=right>360</TD><TD align=right>19</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=left>*3</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200507120.shtml),MVP-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.shtml#NLmvp)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2006 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=right>26</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2006.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>143</TD><TD align=right>634</TD><TD align=right>535</TD><TD align=right>119</TD><TD align=right>177</TD><TD align=right>33</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>49</TD><TD align=right>137</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>92</TD><TD align=right>50</TD><TD align=right>.331</TD><TD align=right>.431</TD><TD align=right>.671</TD><TD align=right>1.102</TD><TD align=right>178</TD><TD align=right>359</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=left>*3</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200607110.shtml),MVP-2 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.shtml#NLmvp),GG (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/gold_glove_nl.shtml#2006)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2007 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2007</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2007.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2007.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>158</TD><TD align=right>679</TD><TD align=right>565</TD><TD align=right>99</TD><TD align=right>185</TD><TD align=right>38</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>32</TD><TD align=right>103</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>99</TD><TD align=right>58</TD><TD align=right>.327</TD><TD align=right>.429</TD><TD align=right>.568</TD><TD align=right>.997</TD><TD align=right>157</TD><TD align=right>321</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=left>*3</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200707100.shtml),MVP-9 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.shtml#NLmvp)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2008 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2008</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2008.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2008.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>148</TD><TD align=right>641</TD><TD align=right>524</TD><TD align=right>100</TD><TD align=right>187</TD><TD align=right>44</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>37</TD><TD align=right>116</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>104</TD><TD align=right>54</TD><TD align=right>.357</TD><TD align=right>.462</TD><TD align=right>.653</TD><TD align=right>1.114</TD><TD align=right>190</TD><TD align=right>342</TD><TD align=right>16</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>34</TD><TD align=left>*3/D4</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ALS/ALS200807150.shtml),MVP-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2008)</TD></TR><TR class=full id=batting_standard.2009 onmouseover=hl(this); onclick=sum_span(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>2009</TD><TD align=right>29</TD><TD align=left>STL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2009.shtml)</TD><TD align=left>NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2009.shtml)</TD><TD align=right>160</TD><TD align=right>700</TD><TD align=right>568</TD><TD align=right>124</TD><TD align=right>186</TD><TD align=right>45</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>47</TD><TD align=right>135</TD><TD align=right>16</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>115</TD><TD align=right>64</TD><TD align=right>.327</TD><TD align=right>.443</TD><TD align=right>.658</TD><TD align=right>1.101</TD><TD align=right>188</TD><TD align=right>374</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>44</TD><TD align=left>*3/D</TD><TD align=left>AS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS200907140.shtml),MVP-1 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.shtml#NLmvp),SS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/silver_slugger_nl.shtml#2009)</TD></TR></TBODY><TFOOT><TR class=" stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left colSpan=4>9 Seasons</TD><TD align=right>1399</TD><TD align=right>6082</TD><TD align=right>5146</TD><TD align=right>1071</TD><TD align=right>1717</TD><TD align=right>387</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>366</TD><TD align=right>1112</TD><TD align=right>61</TD><TD align=right>30</TD><TD align=right>811</TD><TD align=right>570</TD><TD align=right>.334</TD><TD align=right>.427</TD><TD align=right>.628</TD><TD align=right>1.055</TD><TD align=right>172</TD><TD align=right>3230</TD><TD align=right>180</TD><TD align=right>69</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>55</TD><TD align=right>198</TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD></TR><TR class="normal_text stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left colSpan=4>162 Game Avg. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/bat_glossary.shtml#162_avg)</TD><TD align=right>162</TD><TD align=right>704</TD><TD align=right>596</TD><TD align=right>124</TD><TD align=right>199</TD><TD align=right>45</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>42</TD><TD align=right>129</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>94</TD><TD align=right>66</TD><TD align=right>.334</TD><TD align=right>.427</TD><TD align=right>.628</TD><TD align=right>1.055</TD><TD align=right>172</TD><TD align=right>374</TD><TD align=right>21</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=left></TD><TD align=left></TD></TR></TFOOT></TABLE>

The only player to have a stretch of seasons with those types of consistent numbers besides Pujols was Lou Gehrig. But those were the middle years of Gehrig's career. The most impressive part for Pujols is that those are the first nine years of his career.

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Heh, never would've guessed that Pujols would be the run away winner in a poll of Missourians.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Pitchers are baseball players too!

Greg Maddux

* 8× All-Star selection (1988, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000)
* World Series champion (1995)
* 18× Gold Glove Award winner (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008)
* 4× NL Cy Young Award winner (1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
* 4× NL TSN Pitcher of the Year (1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
* Chicago Cubs #31 retired
* Atlanta Braves #31 retired

/thread

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 12:10 PM
Seriously it's hard not to mention a pre-injured Ken Griffey Jr. Had he not gotten the inj bug, who knows what his numbers would be now. He's gone through a 10-yr dark age of injuries, which could have given him another 300+ HR's than he already has. Not to mention he played one of the hardest positions in baseball in CF.

Pujols is the better hitter though, may be the best pure hitter ever before its all over. But he started later and Griffey was killing the ball and dominating the league at a much younger age.

Ahh, honesty. He did get hurt though, which is all that really matters. God damned shame too, the guy was my hero growing up and I'm convinced he NEVER did anything to cheat this game.

It's great having him back in Seattle for one last year when I think the Mariners can make a serious pennant run.

Frazod
03-17-2010, 12:10 PM
Pitchers are baseball players too!

Greg Maddux

* 8× All-Star selection (1988, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000)
* World Series champion (1995)
* 18× Gold Glove Award winner (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008)
* 4× NL Cy Young Award winner (1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
* 4× NL TSN Pitcher of the Year (1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
* Chicago Cubs #31 retired
* Atlanta Braves #31 retired

/thread

You do make a pretty good point here.

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 12:11 PM
Karma for him leaving Seattle.. His swing is/was a thing of beauty..

:( Interesting he comes back to Seattle and plays the whole year. DH helped that I'm sure though. The way he threw himself into the wall and sacrificed his body, it should be no real surprise that he got bit by the injury bug.

Demonpenz
03-17-2010, 12:12 PM
Maddux was often a better hitter than his 8th place hitter heh

Bill Parcells
03-17-2010, 12:14 PM
How can Bo Jackson not be on there? he was the best player in baseball in the mid to late 80's. and probably would have been the greatest ever had he not played football.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 12:15 PM
Maddux was often a better hitter than his 8th place hitter heh

There is no reason to talk smack on Rafael Belliard.

http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/2493/11817011/1992BowmanRafaelBelliard75.jpg

Demonpenz
03-17-2010, 12:16 PM
How can Bo Jackson not be on there? he was the best player in baseball in the mid to late 80's. and probably would have been the greatest ever had he not played football.

/lock the thread

Frazod
03-17-2010, 12:16 PM
Heh, never would've guessed that Pujols would be the run away winner in a poll of Missourians.

Doesn't mean as much as you might think. There are a ton of butthurt Royals fans (mostly from Kansas) here who hate anything and everything St. Louis related.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 12:17 PM
How can Bo Jackson not be on there? he was the best player in baseball in the mid to late 80's. and probably would have been the greatest ever had he not played football.

Please tell me my sarcasm meter is broken.

A .250 lifetime avg is not typically the stat you look for when comparing greatest player of a generation.

Bill Parcells
03-17-2010, 12:19 PM
Please tell me my sarcasm meter is broken.

A .250 lifetime avg is not typically the stat you look for when comparing greatest player of a generation.

How old are you? LMAO! He tried coming back from hip replacement and he sucked for years. Im talking about before he hurt his hip. you ever watch him play?

CoMoChief
03-17-2010, 12:22 PM
Karma for him leaving Seattle.. His swing is/was a thing of beauty..

prettiest swing in baseball. so beautiful the swing ended up being a trademark.....much like MJ's "jumpman"

DrRyan
03-17-2010, 12:26 PM
IMO it comes down to Pujols and Arod. Two of the best hitters(left or right handed) in the last generation. With things be so equal with the bat in their hand I think you have to give it to Arod based on the postion/s played. Arod was arguably the best SS(I would argue as better SS than Jeter) in the game and is a superb defensive 3B. He had one down defensive year in 2006 at 3B. Outside of that year he has been great at 3B.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 12:27 PM
How old are you? LMAO! He tried coming back from hip replacement and he sucked for years. Im talking about before he hurt his hip. you ever watch him play?

Yes I did actually. The guy never batted over .279 in a season and hit over 30 HR only once. Yeah, he did well defensively but never received any defensive accolades (golden glove & such).

In fact, Bo's awesomeness made the All-Star game one time.

I enjoyed the guy but IMHO, he does not deserve to be in this discussion.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 12:28 PM
Ahh, honesty. He did get hurt though, which is all that really matters. God damned shame too, the guy was my hero growing up and I'm convinced he NEVER did anything to cheat this game.

It's great having him back in Seattle for one last year when I think the Mariners can make a serious pennant run.yep, if he wouldn't have had the injury's he coule have broke all the records.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 12:29 PM
as for the age thing, talk to some of his former mates from Fort..
How do those former temamates explain this then?

2009 stats for a "35" year old baseball player.

.327 Batting Average
135 RBI's
47 Homer runs
124 Runs scored
.658 Slugging %
1.01 On base Slugging %

Bill Parcells
03-17-2010, 12:30 PM
Yes I did actually. The guy never batted over .279 in a season and hit over 30 HR only once. Yeah, he did well defensively but never received any defensive accolades (golden glove & such).

In fact, Bo's awesomeness made the All-Star game one time.

I enjoyed the guy but IMHO, he does not deserve to be in this discussion.

Thats why were having a discussion ;)


TBH, Don Mattingly should be on there. but that n00b BRC is a Cardinals fan. so Im not surpised..lol

Sure-Oz
03-17-2010, 12:30 PM
Poo holes

Brainiac
03-17-2010, 12:30 PM
How old are you? LMAO! He tried coming back from hip replacement and he sucked for years. Im talking about before he hurt his hip. you ever watch him play?
Bo had the potential to be the greatest player of his generation, but he didn't achieve it. If we graded by potential, Alex Gordon WOULD be on the list.

And yes, I saw him play. A lot.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 12:33 PM
Thats why were having a discussion ;)


TBH, Don Mattingly should be on there. but that n00b BRC is a Cardinals fan. so Im not surpised..lolDon Mattingly? ROFL

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 12:33 PM
Poo holes

I always thought the greatest Sportscenter call that could be made was when Albert hit a long ball the sports caster would say "And Albert..................STICKS IT UP THEIR PU-JOLS!!!"

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 12:34 PM
Bo had the potential to be the greatest player of his generation, but he didn't achieve it. If we graded by potential, Alex Gordon WOULD be on the list.

And yes, I saw him play. A lot.
Right, potential...Bo had no limits to his potential. Probably one of the best pure athletes of all time.

Brainiac
03-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Right, potential...Bo had no limits to his potential. Probably one of the best pure athletes of all time.
Agreed. I don't think we'll ever see anyone accomplish what Bo did in his all too brief career. Deion tried, but he wasn't even close.

Bane
03-17-2010, 12:38 PM
I voted For José Alberto Pujols Alcántara.I get to see 20-30 Cardinal games a year and he may be the best player ever.I understand the history and all the classic greats,but IMO he is the game.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 12:39 PM
Here is another name to bandy about...

Ryne Sandberg

* 10× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993)
* 9× Gold Glove Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991)
* 7× Silver Slugger Award winner (1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992)
* 1984 NL MVP
* 1990 Home Run Derby winner
* Chicago Cubs #23 retired

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 12:41 PM
Here is another name to bandy about...

Ryne Sandberg

* 10× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993)
* 9× Gold Glove Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991)
* 7× Silver Slugger Award winner (1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992)
* 1984 NL MVP
* 1990 Home Run Derby winner
* Chicago Cubs #23 retired
He's not even close to those other 4 players. and since he won his MVP 25 years ago, is he even this generation?

Brainiac
03-17-2010, 12:45 PM
He's not even close to those other 4 players. and since he won his MVP 25 years ago, is he even this generation?
I still get pissed off and jealous when I think about Ryne Sandberg.

He RETIRED at the age of 32 because he lost his enthusiasm for the game. I've lost my enthusiasm for working, but I can't retire. It's certainly his right to do whatever he wants and whatever he can afford to do, but I'm not voting for him as the best player of any generation.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 12:47 PM
Hey... I watched him play. I'm only 29. If I can remember him ply then he is certainly of my generation. :p

Ok, no Ryne then. How about Piazza?

* 12x All-Star selection (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005)
* 10x Silver Slugger Award winner (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002)
* 1993 NL Rookie of the Year
* 1996 MLB All-Star Game MVP

CoMoChief
03-17-2010, 12:58 PM
Here is another name to bandy about...

Ryne Sandberg

* 10× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993)
* 9× Gold Glove Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991)
* 7× Silver Slugger Award winner (1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992)
* 1984 NL MVP
* 1990 Home Run Derby winner
* Chicago Cubs #23 retired

He's not even the best Cub ever.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 01:03 PM
Heh, never would've guessed that Pujols would be the run away winner in a poll of Missourians.I gots the love for Griffey JR. :thumb:

On the wall of my man cave I've got a game used and autograhed Griffey jersey framed. A autographed bat, ball up on the wall.

Bane
03-17-2010, 01:05 PM
Heh, never would've guessed that Pujols would be the run away winner in a poll of Missourians.

I was born and raised in IL,I just moved to MO 5 years ago.:bang::bang::bang:
:D

alanm
03-17-2010, 01:15 PM
I would have voted ARod if he hadn't gotten involved with steroids. As far as I'm concerned it disqualifies both him and Bonds.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 01:29 PM
He's not even the best Cub ever.

The criteria is not ever... it's generation.

Sandberg is by far the best Cub of my generation.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 01:30 PM
The criteria is not ever... it's generation.

Sandberg is by far the best Cub of my generation.What? he beats out Soriano?;)

Red Beans
03-17-2010, 01:51 PM
Griffey Jr. When he was healthy he was the best baseball player ever. He is also an American and Pujols probably lied about his age and is at least 5 years older than he claims.

:shake:

Leave it to the resident donkey fan to say something so utterly retarded. It's Pujols hands down. Arod at a distant second. There are no other options.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 01:54 PM
WTF is wrong with me?

How can we forget Cal Ripken Jr.?

* 19× All-Star selection (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001)
* World Series champion (1983)
* 2× Gold Glove Award winner (1991, 1992)
* 8× Silver Slugger Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994)
* 2× AL MVP (1983, 1991)
* 1982 AL Rookie of the Year
* 2× MLB All-Star Game MVP (1991, 2001)
* 1992 Roberto Clemente Award
* 1992 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1991 Home Run Derby winner
* Baltimore Orioles #8 retired
* Major League Baseball All-Century Team
* Other awards and records

Jesus the poll options are severely lacking. You have lost your burst BRC! :p

Ari Chi3fs
03-17-2010, 01:55 PM
I'm so glad the Royals didn't waste a draft pick on the Pujols kid. What a bust.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 01:58 PM
WTF is wrong with me?

How can we forget Cal Ripken Jr.?

* 19× All-Star selection (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001)
* World Series champion (1983)
* 2× Gold Glove Award winner (1991, 1992)
* 8× Silver Slugger Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994)
* 2× AL MVP (1983, 1991)
* 1982 AL Rookie of the Year
* 2× MLB All-Star Game MVP (1991, 2001)
* 1992 Roberto Clemente Award
* 1992 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1991 Home Run Derby winner
* Baltimore Orioles #8 retired
* Major League Baseball All-Century Team
* Other awards and records

Jesus the poll options are severely lacking. You have lost your burst BRC! :pCal Ripken? he doesn't even come close to the top 4. :harumph:

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 01:59 PM
I'm so glad the Royals didn't waste a draft pick on the Pujols kid. What a bust.I know 300 players were picked before Pujols so a lot of teams made the same mistake multiple times but the Royals deserve much more of a smackdown over bypassing the local high school and juco player than the rest of baseball.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 02:00 PM
Cal Ripken? he doesn't even coem close to the top 4. :harumph:

Rickey Henderson

* 10× All-Star selection (1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991)
* 2× World Series champion (1989, 1993)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1981, 1985, 1990)
* Gold Glove Award winner (1981)
* 1990 AL MVP
* 1989 ALCS MVP
* 1999 NL Comeback Player of the Year
* Oakland Athletics #24 retired

MLB Records

* 1,406 career stolen bases
* 2,295 career runs
* 81 career lead-off home runs
* 130 stolen bases, single season
* Holds numerous other records


Ok... how about we narrow the poll down to the MVP/Best 1B in the past decade? lol

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 02:01 PM
Rickey Henderson

* 10× All-Star selection (1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991)
* 2× World Series champion (1989, 1993)
* 3× Silver Slugger Award winner (1981, 1985, 1990)
* Gold Glove Award winner (1981)
* 1990 AL MVP
* 1989 ALCS MVP
* 1999 NL Comeback Player of the Year
* Oakland Athletics #24 retired

MLB Records

* 1,406 career stolen bases
* 2,295 career runs
* 81 career lead-off home runs
* 130 stolen bases, single season
* Holds numerous other records


Ok... how about we narrow the poll down to the MVP/Best 1B in the past decade? lolnope, still not even close to the top 4. :shake:

Frazod
03-17-2010, 02:02 PM
I know 300 players were picked before Pujols so a lot of teams made the same mistake multiple times but the Royals deserve much more of a smackdown over bypassing the local high school and juco player than the rest of baseball.

Well, thank God they did pass on him. He'd already be playing for the fucking Yankmees.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 02:06 PM
nope, still not even close to the top 4. :shake:

lol

I'm sticking with my first pick of Maddux.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 02:08 PM
Well, thank God they did pass on him. He'd already be playing for the ****ing Yankmees.Yep, my favorite Cardinal since Gibson. Glad he fell into our lucky laps in the draft and we were very smart to lock him up for 10 years. In 2 years he might start to backslide a little in his #'s. I hope he continues to get those lesser numbers while wearing the birds on bat uniform but either way we got his best 11 years of his career.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 02:08 PM
lol

I'm sticking with my first pick of Maddux.Pitchers arn't elgible.:D

raybec 4
03-17-2010, 02:10 PM
I'm a cards homer so I chose AP best player on the list and approaching some of the all-time guys.

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 02:14 PM
Pitchers arn't elgible.:D

Ok, now you are just being difficult. :harumph:

pr_capone
03-17-2010, 02:17 PM
Tony Gwynn

* 15× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999)
* 5× Gold Glove Award winner (1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)
* 7× Silver Slugger Award winner (1984, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1994, 1995, 1997)
* 1999 Roberto Clemente Award
* 1998 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1995 Branch Rickey Award
* San Diego Padres #19 retired

Frazod
03-17-2010, 02:18 PM
Ok, now you are just being difficult. :harumph:

Maddox is undeniably the best pitcher of our generation. But as great as he is, he's only playing in 20% of his team's games. A hitter like Pujols can make a difference in every game.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 02:19 PM
Tony Gwynn

* 15× All-Star selection (1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999)
* 5× Gold Glove Award winner (1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)
* 7× Silver Slugger Award winner (1984, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1994, 1995, 1997)
* 1999 Roberto Clemente Award
* 1998 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1995 Branch Rickey Award
* San Diego Padres #19 retired
A singles hitter? Best of his generation at hitting singles, okay. The rest of the criteria, Fail.:D

Demonpenz
03-17-2010, 02:23 PM
yess tony gwynn could strike a baseball, but the game is about scoring runs.

Ari Chi3fs
03-17-2010, 03:56 PM
I'm pretty certain that BRC's man love of Pujols would culminate in him dropping to his knees and sucking off Pujols if the opportunity arose, and it could guarantee the Cards another world series win.

KC Tattoo
03-17-2010, 03:58 PM
In any generation Pete Rose.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 03:59 PM
I voted for APu, but I can't believe it's this kind of blowout.

That said, he gives you elite defense, he hits for average and power, he almost never Ks (productive outs mean something), he's durable, and he gets on base like crazy.

Frazod
03-17-2010, 04:03 PM
I'm pretty certain that BRC's man love of Pujols would culminate in him dropping to his knees and sucking off Pujols if the opportunity arose, and it could guarantee the Cards another world series win.

If that's what it takes..... :evil:

Stewie
03-17-2010, 04:07 PM
Pujols for sure. The other part of the question was who would you start a team around? I would always start with pitching. Right now it would be Greinke and Lincecum... that's a no-brainer.

KC Tattoo
03-17-2010, 04:12 PM
I think Bo Jackson was the best of his generation. The way he could hit inside the park homeruns just phenominal. Too bad he ruined his career cuz he was a raider. He could have been one of the greatest baseball players ever.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 04:18 PM
Pujols for sure. The other part of the question was who would you start a team around? I would always start with pitching. Right now it would be Greinke and Lincecum... that's a no-brainer.

SPers cannot affect a regular season in the way that everyday players can. In a playoff series they are more important, but not in the regular season.

Stewie
03-17-2010, 04:27 PM
SPers cannot affect a regular season in the way that everyday players can. In a playoff series they are more important, but not in the regular season.

The impact of an individual everyday player in any given game is minuscule compared to a dominating pitcher. Good pitching beats good hitting every time.

CoMoChief
03-17-2010, 04:29 PM
You could also make an argument for Randy Johnson. One of the most physically dominant pitchers ever.

Frazod
03-17-2010, 04:30 PM
SPers cannot affect a regular season in the way that everyday players can. In a playoff series they are more important, but not in the regular season.

I absolutely agree with this - that first win a short series means a lot. But you've got to get there first.

OnTheWarpath58
03-17-2010, 04:32 PM
The impact of an individual everyday player in any given game is minuscule compared to a dominating pitcher. Good pitching beats good hitting every time.

That dominating pitcher makes an impact once every 5 days.

The dominating position player makes an impact every day.

Frazod
03-17-2010, 04:39 PM
Somebody should do a separate poll for pitchers of the current generation.

DJ's left nut
03-17-2010, 06:01 PM
How old are you? LMAO! He tried coming back from hip replacement and he sucked for years. Im talking about before he hurt his hip. you ever watch him play?

Holy !@#$, you were serious?!?!

The best OPS of his career is .866. He had worse than a 4-1 K/bb ratio (in other words, he had no plate discipline and massive holes in his swing).

He was the prototypical wild hacker. He had maybe 2 more productive seasons in him before folks realized that if you just never threw the man a strike, he'd spin himself into the dirt and get himself out.

He was Ron Gant. Go ahead and review their respective careers through age 27 (i.e. when Jackson was injured) and give me one area where Bo Jackson was a better player than Ron Gant. He was a more spectacular defender, but he also had a below average zone rating and range factor. There were plenty of balls he didn't get to because he took abysmal routes to the ball.

Bo Jackson was a sideshow. He was a mistake hitter that managed to hit a few balls very hard when he wasn't swinging wildly through them. He would have never been an elite player with that kind of strike zone judgment and pitch recognition. Guys with that profile do not improve in any appreciable measure.

Yes, I've seen Bo Jackson play. Given enough time I could give you 100 players to have played in the last 10 years alone that are better players than he'd have ever been.

DJ's left nut
03-17-2010, 06:10 PM
WTF is wrong with me?

How can we forget Cal Ripken Jr.?

* 19× All-Star selection (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001)
* World Series champion (1983)
* 2× Gold Glove Award winner (1991, 1992)
* 8× Silver Slugger Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994)
* 2× AL MVP (1983, 1991)
* 1982 AL Rookie of the Year
* 2× MLB All-Star Game MVP (1991, 2001)
* 1992 Roberto Clemente Award
* 1992 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
* 1991 Home Run Derby winner
* Baltimore Orioles #8 retired
* Major League Baseball All-Century Team
* Other awards and records

Jesus the poll options are severely lacking. You have lost your burst BRC! :p

Are you kidding?

Cal Ripken is a borderline HOF candidate without his streak.

For the last 10 seasons of Cal Ripkens career, he was a fringe starter with a massive salary.

Here, I've made this argument already:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3689658#post3689658

He's not in this discussion; nowhere near it.

DJ's left nut
03-17-2010, 06:12 PM
I'm pretty certain that BRC's man love of Pujols would culminate in him dropping to his knees and sucking off Pujols if the opportunity arose, and it could guarantee the Cards another world series win.

If BRC passes on that, I'll take the reigns.

I'd probably suck Tony LaRussa off if it guaranteed a World Series championship.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 06:14 PM
If that's what it takes..... :evil:Man I don't know. I've already got to see my team win a world championship in person. I don't think I want to see another that bad.;)

DJ's left nut
03-17-2010, 06:16 PM
The impact of an individual everyday player in any given game is minuscule compared to a dominating pitcher. Good pitching beats good hitting every time.

Absolutely not true.

The Royals just had a pitcher put up one of the best seasons in the last decade of baseball. They managed to almost lose 100 games...

The Cardinals have has some seasons where they put absolute garbage around AP (see: 2006 through mid-2008) and they still hover around .500 at worst.

Over the course of 162 games, the position player is the far more valuable player. It's simply not even debated at this point.

In the playoffs you have a different calculus, but ask the 90's Braves how far a dominant staff will take you. Even then, the best SPs don't guarantee success.

stlchiefs
03-17-2010, 06:31 PM
I wish it could have been Griffey, unfortunately he tanked after leaving the Mariners. Gotta say Pujols, he's the only one of the other 3 who hasn't been proven to be a cheater yet. That's not saying there isn't a strong argument for him either way.

Frazod
03-17-2010, 06:43 PM
It's kind of awesome that douche Bonds only has six votes. :D

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 07:17 PM
I consider Bonds and Pujols to be of two different generations.

For the record, though, Bonds is the greatest player of all time.

Consistent1
03-17-2010, 07:19 PM
"99% of the year on the disabled list...Kenny Griff"

BWillie
03-17-2010, 07:35 PM
Why you would not vote for Bonds is beyond me. Bonds is one of the Top 5 baseball players of all time. If you voted for Pujols, at least I can understand because he puts up the same #'s into his late 30's he will be in the same category.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 07:59 PM
Why you would not vote for Bonds is beyond me. Bonds is one of the Top 5 baseball players of all time. If you voted for Pujols, at least I can understand because he puts up the same #'s into his late 30's he will be in the same category.uhhh he's a friggin cheater. He used banned substances to improve his on the field performance that other players were not allowed to use to improve their performance. They were also illegal, not just against MLB policy.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:02 PM
uhhh he's a friggin cheater. He used banned substances to improve his on the field performance that other players were not allowed to use to improve their performance. They were also illegal, not just against MLB policy.
And so did everybody else, including pitchers. It's time for people to move on from the whole PED angle.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:08 PM
Why you would not vote for Bonds is beyond me. Bonds is one of the Top 5 baseball players of all time. If you voted for Pujols, at least I can understand because he puts up the same #'s into his late 30's he will be in the same category.

That's the way I see it. Pujols' first 10 years have been just as good as anybody in the history of baseball. But he's still gotta do it for 10 more years to be up with the best ever.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:09 PM
People forget that even though he won a few GG's, Bonds was a piss poor defensive player who threw like a fucking girl. He allowed Sid Bream to score from second, FFS.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 08:10 PM
And so did everybody else, including pitchers. It's time for people to move on from the whole PED angle.BS. I don't think Griffry Jr or Pujols used steriods. Bonds cheated. He should lose every record he has or at least have a giant * next to every single one of them.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:10 PM
People forget that even though he won a few GG's, Bonds was a piss poor defensive player who threw like a ****ing girl. He allowed Sid Bream to score from second, FFS.

He won 8 gold gloves and was a great LF with a ton of range. It means about as much as Pujols being a great defender at 1st, though.

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 08:11 PM
I gots the love for Griffey JR. :thumb:

On the wall of my man cave I've got a game used and autograhed Griffey jersey framed. A autographed bat, ball up on the wall.

The guy is my hero. I grew up worshiping Ken Griffey Jr. I can't vote for him here, because he was injured his whole career. But a big part of me wants to vote for him because it's a sign that his greatness is not a result of steroids. A guy like Ken Griffey Jr. should be the greatest player in the steroids generation.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:12 PM
BS. I don't think Griffry Jr or Pujols used steriods.

What is this based on, exactly? The fact that they haven't been caught yet?


Bonds cheated. He should lose every record he has or at least have a giant * next to every single one of them.
I've debated this too often to get into it with you, but that's an incredibly ignorant and hypocritical way to look at it. I suppose we should also go through the HOF and take all the people out that used amphetamines, too.

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 08:14 PM
God I'm so excited for baseball this year. The Mariners could literally go all the way in what will probably be Junior's last year. I will be at The Safe at least a dozen times this year.

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 08:14 PM
What is this based on, exactly? The fact that they haven't been caught yet?


I've debated this too often to get into it with you, but that's an incredibly ignorant and hypocritical way to look at it. I suppose we should also go through the HOF and take all the people out that used amphetamines, too.

Fuck that. Griffey has been hurt the last 10 years of his career. He didn't make any amazing comebacks, and his body looks the same as it did when he started, outside of he's a little fatter now. No way Griffey took juice.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:16 PM
**** that. Griffey has been hurt the last 10 years of his career. He didn't make any amazing comebacks, and his body looks the same as it did when he started, outside of he's a little fatter now. No way Griffey took juice.
Are you saying that people that get injured don't take steroids?

Steroids are often a cause of injuries like Griffey had.

Hog Farmer
03-17-2010, 08:16 PM
Mark Fridrich

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:16 PM
He won 8 gold gloves and was a great LF with a ton of range. It means about as much as Pujols being a great defender at 1st, though.

He was not a great LF.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:17 PM
He was not a great LF.
My suggestion would be to do some research on the topic. You might learn more about baseball, as well.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 08:22 PM
What is this based on, exactly? The fact that they haven't been caught yet? .
His body type hasn't changed. Look at Bonds pics as a rookie and now. Pujols has a big huge target on his back. He has proclaimed nationally make me the face of baseball, you can trust me, I will give back every penny I've ever made if I ever took steriods, I'll take a test every day and make the results public. Doesn't sound like a man trying to keep a secret.

I've debated this too often to get into it with you, but that's an incredibly ignorant and hypocritical way to look at it. I suppose we should also go through the HOF and take all the people out that used amphetamines, too.Evidently you haven't had thei conversation with me because I would be in favor of kicking out Mickey Mantle, Yogi Bera and all the others that in there era used "grennies". They were defintely PED. They allowed them to remain alert and perform better despite being out all night drinking.

I don't believe is keeping out McQuire, Bonds etc if you allow admitted PED takers to remain in the HOF. But, it will never happen, kick out Bera and Mantle?ROFL

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 08:24 PM
My suggestion would be to do some research on the topic. You might learn more about baseball, as well.Hamas has forgotten more baseball than most of us on here know now.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:24 PM
My suggestion would be to do some research on the topic. You might learn more about baseball, as well.

I know far more about baseball than you, trust me.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:29 PM
His body type hasn't changed. Look at Bonds pics as a rookie and now. Pujols has a big huge target on his back. He has proclaimed nationally make me the face of baseball, you can trust me, I will give back every penny I've ever made if I ever took steriods, I'll take a test every day and make the results public. Doesn't sound like a man trying to keep a secret.

So your "evidence" is pictures and your interpretation of body type changing. Quite precise. Have you ever known anybody that's taken steroids? They have different effects on different people, and they particularly depend on how you use them.


Evidently you haven't had thei conversation with me because I would be in favor of kicking out Mickey Mantle, Yogi Bera and all the others that in there era used "grennies". They were defintely PED. They allowed them to remain alert and perform better despite being out all night drinking.

Well then you'd have to take out every player from the 1950s and on (Hank Aaron and Willie Mays, in particular, would be gone). I guess the HOF can be filled with guy's like Ruth and Gehrig from 70-80 years ago (though even guys like that may have injected testosterone).

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 08:32 PM
So your "evidence" is pictures and your interpretation of body type changing. Quite precise. Have you ever known anybody that's taken steroids? They have different effects on different people, and they particularly depend on how you use them.


Well then you'd have to take out every player from the 1950s and on (Hank Aaron and Willie Mays, in particular, would be gone). I guess the HOF can be filled with guy's like Ruth and Gehrig from 70-80 years ago (though even guys like that may have injected testosterone).uhhh I was a Registered Respiratory Therapist for 9 years so yes, I know all about steriods and their effects on people. Swing and miss there slugger.

What exactly is your "evidence" That Pujols and Griffey Jr. used PED?

DeezNutz
03-17-2010, 08:33 PM
People are throwing the likes of Cal and Gwynn into the discussion? What?

If we're going to start digging, then my man Brett has to enter the conversation. Absolute ****ing stud of a player and an individual who personified leadership.

And that dude didn't sniff PEDs because he was too busy getting drunk, chasing strange, and shitting himself.

And although Bonds has never had a great arm, the dude was a very solid defensive LFer. The image of a broken down Bonds who runs like Guillen is clouding this debate, IMO.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:35 PM
http://fespn.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/barry_bonds.jpg

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:36 PM
People are throwing the likes of Cal and Gwynn into the discussion? What?

If we're going to start digging, then my man Brett has to enter the conversation. Absolute ****ing stud of a player and an individual who personified leadership.

And that dude didn't sniff PEDs because he was too busy getting drunk, chasing strange, and shitting himself.

And although Bonds has never had a great arm, the dude was a very solid defensive LFer. The image of a broken down Bonds who runs like Guillen is clouding this debate, IMO.

Solid LFer I will accept. He was by no means a great LFer, and his arm was always a liability, even in his prime of primes.

Valiant
03-17-2010, 08:38 PM
I'm so glad the Royals didn't waste a draft pick on the Pujols kid. What a bust.

Everybody missed on Pujols.. Even the Cards for all the rounds before they took him..

DeezNutz
03-17-2010, 08:39 PM
Solid LFer I will accept. He was by no means a great LFer, and his arm was always a liability, even in his prime of primes.

The problem with measuring defensive greatness by GGs is that a player's offensive prowess often casts a long shadow over his defensive abilities. And GGs are often a reward of some type.

Now, there are defensive freaks of ****ing nature, like Vizquel in his prime, who could damn near bat only their body weight and be more than worth a starting spot and all the GGs one could heap upon them, but these guys are few and far between.

Also, errors are given out like their golden fucking eggs in today's game, so fielding percentage is a complete fucking joke. On the flipside, pitchers' ERA is more inflated.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:39 PM
I know far more about baseball than you, trust me.
I'm sure you think you do. But most people have an inflated opinion of themselves.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:41 PM
The problem with measuring defensive greatness by GGs is that a player's offensive prowess often casts a long shadow over his defensive abilities. And GGs are often a reward of some type.

Now, there are defensive freaks of fucking nature, like Vizquel in his prime, who could damn near bat only their body weight and be more than worth a starting spot and all the GGs one could heap upon them.

No doubt. Yadi Molina is the best defensive catcher I've ever seen, but if he played at the same time in the same league as Pudge when he was at his best, Yadi would have never won a GG.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 08:42 PM
I'm sure you think you do. But most people have an inflated opinion of themselves.comeon Hamas the gaunlet has been thrown down. Represent
:popcorn:

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:43 PM
uhhh I was a Registered Respiratory Therapist for 9 years so yes, I know all about steriods and their effects on people. Swing and miss there slugger.

If you are judging people based on the unscientific measure of looking at pictures from their youth, apparently you don't know much at all on the subject.


What exactly is your "evidence" That Pujols and Griffey Jr. used PED?
Who said they took PED? Not me, certainly. I'm just not naive about baseball culture and the extent of PED use in the game (even today).

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 08:44 PM
comeon Hamas the gaunlet has been thrown down. Represent
:popcorn:

LMAO This is hilarious because I'm literally sitting here eating popcorn.

DeezNutz
03-17-2010, 08:44 PM
No doubt. Yadi Molina is the best defensive catcher I've ever seen, but if he played at the same time in the same league as Pudge when he was at his best, Yadi would have never won a GG.

Yeah, this is an interesting example, too.

Because when you say Pudge, the very first thing that comes to mind is that sumbitch throwing ****ing lasers from his knees. Simply could not run on that dude, or even on dumbass pitchers when he was behind the dish.

Yes, this is a component of a catcher's defensive responsibility, but the general acceptance of being a lazy-ass blocker is one of my biggest sources of annoyance with the current generation of catchers.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:45 PM
comeon Hamas the gaunlet has been thrown down. Represent
:popcorn:

He can use the search button. I don't really care what he thinks. I know he's wrong, and even if he knows it, he won't admit it.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:46 PM
As I always do when I get into pointless, exhaustive discussions like this, I'll provide a link to Bill James' essay.

http://www.actapublications.com/images/small/PressReleases/Cooperstownandthe%27Roids_F2.pdf

Maybe it will illuminate the issues for you. Maybe not.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:48 PM
Yeah, this is an interesting example, too.

Because when you say Pudge, the very first thing that comes to mind is that sumbitch throwing fucking lasers from his knees. Simply could not run on that dude.

Yes, this is a component of a catcher's defensive responsibility, but the general acceptance of being a lazy-ass blocker behind the plate is one of my biggest sources of annoyance with the current generation of catchers.

And Pudge did not have Yadi's arm, nor his intuitiveness about picking runners off at first. He's really the only player I've ever seen consistently do that. I'd also argue he's much better at handling a staff than Pudge. Yes, that Texas park is a launching pad, but I don't think Pudge did his staff any favors.

Yadi is basically an extension of Duncan.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:48 PM
He can use the search button. I don't really care what he thinks. I know he's wrong, and even if he knows it, he won't admit it.
I've been reading your posts for years. And I'm fine with my statements.

BWillie
03-17-2010, 08:49 PM
http://fespn.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/barry_bonds.jpg

In all fairness, that is a pic of Bonds when he is like 20. When I was 19, I was real tiny like that. I put on 70 pounds of lean body weight since then through weight training, no steroids. And I'm only 26. It's not unheard of for guys to get as big as Barry did, but theres also no denying that steroids helped him out mainly in his late years.

KC Connection can be a dick, but I think he's right on some of these issues. What % of MLB players including PITCHERS dabbled in steroids or PED's in the 1990's? 80%? Sounds about right. He was basically keeping up w/ the status quo. I'm not saying it is OK he took steroids, because it was wrong, but Bonds flat out is one of the best players to ever play the game, period. Better than ARod, and certainly better than Griffey who is a top player in his own right.

Personally, whether Griffey did or didn't use them doesn't make any difference to me. Him not taking steroids in the 1990's, is like a college baseball player using a wooden bat, and not using a metal one. As unfair as that argument is, it's the truth.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:50 PM
The image of a broken down Bonds who runs like Guillen is clouding this debate, IMO.
Yes, the fact that Bonds was a poor defensive LF for the latter 8-9 years of his career would tend to do that.

DeezNutz
03-17-2010, 08:52 PM
And Pudge did not have Yadi's arm, nor his intuitiveness about picking runners off at first. He's really the only player I've ever seen consistently do that. I'd also argue he's much better at handling a staff than Pudge. Yes, that Texas park is a launching pad, but I don't think Pudge did his staff any favors.

Yadi is basically an extension of Duncan.

In fairness, this says something about Pujols and his baseball IQ because picking a runner at first is a 50-50 deal with catcher and first baseman. If you don't have two intelligent players, you're fucked.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:53 PM
In all fairness, that is a pic of Bonds when he is like 20. When I was 19, I was real tiny like that. I put on 70 pounds of lean body weight since then through weight training, no steroids. And I'm only 26. It's not unheard of for guys to get as big as Barry did, but theres also no denying that steroids helped him out mainly in his late years.

KC Connection can be a dick, but I think he's right on some of these issues. What % of MLB players including PITCHERS dabbled in steroids or PED's in the 1990's? 80%? Sounds about right. He was basically keeping up w/ the status quo. I'm not saying it is OK he took steroids, because it was wrong, but Bonds flat out is one of the best players to ever play the game, period. Better than ARod, and certainly better than Griffey who is a top player in his own right.

Personally, whether Griffey did or didn't use them doesn't make any difference to me. Him not taking steroids in the 1990's, is like a college baseball player using a wooden bat, and not using a metal one. As unfair as that argument is, it's the truth.

I said nothing about others not using PEDs. I just find it to be a funny picture.

But honestly, if you want proof about Bonds, look at his head.

The human head does not grow like that in early adulthood.

DeezNutz
03-17-2010, 08:53 PM
Yes, the fact that Bonds was a poor defensive LF for the latter 8-9 years of his career would tend to do that.

According to Kenpom, the tone of your post is bullshit and suggests an 67% of an intrawebz depantsing.

*Well, bump that to 98%.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:55 PM
In all fairness, that is a pic of Bonds when he is like 20. When I was 19, I was real tiny like that. I put on 70 pounds of lean body weight since then through weight training, no steroids. And I'm only 26. It's not unheard of for guys to get as big as Barry did, but theres also no denying that steroids helped him out mainly in his late years.

That's my point. It's like some people don't know the enormous benefits of weight training, even without steroids. Not to claim that Bonds never took steroids (he obviously did), but I always laugh when people post pictures of these guys as kids as if it proves their argument.


KC Connection can be a dick, but I think he's right on some of these issues. What % of MLB players including PITCHERS dabbled in steroids or PED's in the 1990's? 80%? Sounds about right. He was basically keeping up w/ the status quo. I'm not saying it is OK he took steroids, because it was wrong, but Bonds flat out is one of the best players to ever play the game, period. Better than ARod, and certainly better than Griffey who is a top player in his own right.

Bonds is the greatest player to play the game, IMO. The competition he faced was much superior to the white guys that faced Ruth, Gehrig, and Williams. ARod is top 10, though, and Pujols is certainly on his way to being among the greatest players of all time.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:55 PM
In fairness, this says something about Pujols and his baseball IQ because picking a runner at first is a 50-50 deal with catcher and first baseman. If you don't have two intelligent players, you're fucked.

They have ESP. But watch the play when you get a chance. That ball probably varies about 3 inches on average from where APu's glove is held.

Right on the infield corner of the bag. Every time.

Extra Point
03-17-2010, 08:55 PM
Jeter. Hands down. Thread over.

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 08:56 PM
Personally, whether Griffey did or didn't use them doesn't make any difference to me. Him not taking steroids in the 1990's, is like a college baseball player using a wooden bat, and not using a metal one. As unfair as that argument is, it's the truth.

Integrity. A lost art form apparently.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 08:56 PM
I also would have liked to have seen Bonds' numbers not sans-PEDs, but sans-body armor.

BWillie
03-17-2010, 08:56 PM
According to Kenpom, the tone of your post is bullshit and suggests an 67% of an intrawebz depantsing.

*Well, bump that to 98%.

ROFL

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 08:59 PM
According to Kenpom, the tone of your post is bullshit and suggests an 67% of an intrawebz depantsing.

*Well, bump that to 98%.
Speaking of KenPom, there are some pretty good articles on the tournament on Basketball Prospectus. Missouri isn't as bad of a road team as is commonly thought.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1003

Ebolapox
03-17-2010, 09:01 PM
how far back are we considering this 'generation?' bonds and griffey are both at the hind-end of the generation... guys like gwynn are up there, as are maddux and (possibly) randy johnson. clemons is up there if he weren't a cheat, though if we exclude clemons, we exclude bonds.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 09:01 PM
I also would have liked to have seen Bonds' numbers not sans-PEDs, but sans-body armor.
Maybe instead of a .609 OBP in 2004, it would have been .575.

POND_OF_RED
03-17-2010, 09:02 PM
How do those former temamates explain this then?

2009 stats for a "35" year old baseball player.

.327 Batting Average
135 RBI's
47 Homer runs
124 Runs scored
.658 Slugging %
1.01 On base Slugging %

They probably just show Bonds stats from when he was 36 and let you figure it out yourself.

.328 BA
137 RBI's
73 Home runs
129 Runs scored
.863 Slugging %
1.379 On base Slugging %

Ebolapox
03-17-2010, 09:02 PM
Jeter. Hands down. Thread over.

ROFL...no. yankee fan?

hell, you almost have to include manny ramirez for just his hitting (obviously not defense, heh).

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 09:02 PM
Integrity. A lost art form apparently.

It's a myth that baseball players ever had integrity.

DeezNutz
03-17-2010, 09:04 PM
Speaking of KenPom, there are some pretty good articles on the tournament on Basketball Prospectus. Missouri isn't as bad of a road team as is commonly thought.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1003

That is really interesting. Nice find.

One of the big reasons why statistical analysis is so important. Sometimes the "eye test" is simply inaccurate as fuck.

That said, Mizzou isn't a very strong club this year, home or away. And I do think their style of play is best suited for home-court refereeing.

tk13
03-17-2010, 09:09 PM
Bonds was probably the best, but he's never going to be counted because of the stupid things he did. Pujols wasn't an all-world LF'er either. Decent, but so was Bonds. Pujols is right up there with them. I feel like when you put them side by side, just as pure hitters... I'd give Bonds the slight edge... I've never seen a baseball player in the zone he entered during that MVP run. You literally could not pitch him in the strike zone. Plus his walk to K ratio was unbelievable, and he was a great base stealer.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 09:14 PM
That said, Mizzou isn't a very strong club this year, home or away. And I do think their style of play is best suited for home-court refereeing.
Still have Clemson beating them (Missouri has just looked bad since Safford's injury), but that article made me think about it.

Der Flöprer
03-17-2010, 09:16 PM
It's a myth that baseball players ever had integrity.

I refuse to believe that a lot of core guys from baseball's past, and present didn't have a genuine love for the game and all of it's nuances. If that's really the case, I'd never watch another game.

CHENZ A!
03-17-2010, 09:37 PM
LMAO this thread is a joke. pujols is a great player but not above any of the other 3. He is a 3 tool player. Not discounting what he has done, he has been amazing, but the STL fans should just get back to the circle jerk.

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 09:41 PM
They probably just show Bonds stats from when he was 36 and let you figure it out yourself.

.328 BA
137 RBI's
73 Home runs
129 Runs scored
.863 Slugging %
1.379 On base Slugging %
But we now know he was hopped up on steriods. I don't think anyone thinks Pujols was using steriods last year.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2010, 09:43 PM
LMAO this thread is a joke. pujols is a great player but not above any of the other 3. He is a 3 tool player. Not discounting what he has done, he has been amazing, but the STL fans should just get back to the circle jerk.

He's a 4 tool player. The only thing he lacks is speed, and even then, he's one of the best baserunners in the game.

Pasta Giant Meatball
03-17-2010, 09:45 PM
He's a 4 tool player. The only thing he lacks is speed, and even then, he's one of the best baserunners in the game.

Absolutely.

POND_OF_RED
03-17-2010, 09:46 PM
But we now know he was hopped up on steriods. I don't think anyone thinks Pujols was using steriods last year.

I'm sure a lot of Giants fans didn't think he was that year either. I know a few people who went to high school with Pujols and they think he used steroids at some point after he graduated. You can't really be that naive to believe people don't even question him.

Ebolapox
03-17-2010, 09:50 PM
I'm sure a lot of Giants fans didn't think he was that year either. I know a few people who went to high school with Pujols and they think he used steroids at some point after he graduated. You can't really be that naive to believe people don't even question him.

exactly. as much as I'd love to think that he's clean, you never know.

Frazod
03-17-2010, 09:58 PM
It's a myth that baseball players ever had integrity.

Well, your pal Bonds had one thing that none of them had - his handy dandy Darth Vader Elbow Guard.

Interesting article, which I've posted a link to before:

http://insidesportsgeek.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/barry-bonds-hr-record-tainted-by-elbow-armor/

Sure would help a hitter to be able to crowd the plate without the fear of being hit in the elbow by a pitch. And that uniform swing, every time? Wow. Just imagine what Aaron could have done with that bad boy.

Gadzooks
03-17-2010, 09:59 PM
George Bell should be in the discussion but I voted for:
http://thesportsculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/pooholes.jpg

BigRedChief
03-17-2010, 10:02 PM
He's a 4 tool player. The only thing he lacks is speed, and even then, he's one of the best baserunners in the game.No chit, unless you watch the Cardinals you probably don't know that. The guy steals, real steals about 10 bases a year just on guile and baseball knowledge. He defintely doesn't have the speed to be a 5 tool player and shouldn't even being stealing a single base.

BossChief
03-17-2010, 10:15 PM
I think Flopnuts has found a way to hack into my brain through the internet.

He echoed my sentiments almost to a tee in this thread except I chose Griff.

Great fielder

Great hitter

Gave everything he had and brought class to a game that lacked it during his time.

One of the few that were born a great player.

baitism
03-17-2010, 10:21 PM
I say Jeter just because Canseco said he was 100% sure Jeter never used steroids.

KC_Connection
03-17-2010, 11:57 PM
I refuse to believe that a lot of core guys from baseball's past, and present didn't have a genuine love for the game and all of it's nuances. If that's really the case, I'd never watch another game.
It would certainly be nice to believe that.

Reaper16
03-18-2010, 12:04 AM
I voted Bonds because he was an option and thus demands a vote but I don't consider him to be in the same "generation" of player as Pujols and A-Rod. I would vote for Pujols if Bonds wasn't in the poll.

KC_Connection
03-18-2010, 12:07 AM
Well, your pal Bonds had one thing that none of them had - his handy dandy Darth Vader Elbow Guard.

Interesting article, which I've posted a link to before:

http://insidesportsgeek.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/barry-bonds-hr-record-tainted-by-elbow-armor/

Sure would help a hitter to be able to crowd the plate without the fear of being hit in the elbow by a pitch. And that uniform swing, every time? Wow. Just imagine what Aaron could have done with that bad boy.
I've read the article before, and I'm aware of how much such a device would help (having played the game for many years). It certainly wasn't against the rules for him to use it, though, so I fail to see why others have issue with it (and most players, btw, still use a variation of this).

I just don't like out the guy pulls statements like this out of his ass: "This is unfortunate, because by my estimate, Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total."

KC_Connection
03-18-2010, 12:13 AM
I voted Bonds because he was an option and thus demands a vote but I don't consider him to be in the same "generation" of player as Pujols and A-Rod. I would vote for Pujols if Bonds wasn't in the poll.
As would I. There seems to be a lot of Cardinals fans here, though, which explains the results of the poll. Also a lot of Bonds haters because many still seem to funnel all their revulsion for steroids in baseball into one symbol.

Frazod
03-18-2010, 12:15 AM
I've read the article before, and I'm aware of how much such a device would help (having played the game for many years). It certainly wasn't against the rules for him to use it, though, so I fail to see why others have issue with it (and most players, btw, still use a variation of this).

I just don't like out the guy pulls statements like this out of his ass: "This is unfortunate, because by my estimate, Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total."

It's still an unfair advantage he used that others didn't. In fact, that's probably actually worse than the steroids. Too bad baseball is run by an idiot like Selig who wouldn't take a stand against it (and that little scumbag Biggio did the same thing, too).

There's just too much artificial assistance in Bonds' career for him to be ranked among baseball's best. Doesn't help that he's a colossal prick, either.

KC_Connection
03-18-2010, 12:23 AM
It's still an unfair advantage he used that others didn't.

How is it unfair? He used the advantages available to be a better baseball player. Everybody else from his generation did the same thing (including pitchers, who regularly doctor the baseball, even today).


There's just too much artificial assistance in Bonds' career for him to be ranked among baseball's best.
Haha, Bonds not among baseball's best because of "artificial assistance?" Have you seen his numbers compared to everyone from his generation (who all had the same benefits of "artificial assistance")? A statement like that shows an immense lack of perspective about the game's history.

He'll go down as the greatest player of all time (or at least one of them) once people realize the extent of PED use in baseball over the last 50 years (which reminds me, have you read the Bill James essay yet?).

Frazod
03-18-2010, 12:32 AM
How is it unfair? He used the advantages available to be a better baseball player. Everybody else from his generation did the same thing (including pitchers, who regularly doctor the baseball, even today).


Haha, Bonds not among baseball's best because of "artificial assistance?" Have you seen his numbers compared to everyone from his generation (who all had the same benefits of "artificial assistance")? A statement like that shows an immense lack of perspective about the game's history.

He'll go down as the greatest player of all time (or at least one of them) once people realize the extent of PED use in baseball over the last 50 years (which reminds me, have you read the Bill James essay yet?).

Who else wore the Darth Vader Elbow Guard for years, besides Bitchio (who benefitted in the same way but had no power). This "everybody did it" stuff is bullshit. Certainly, it's not his fault that Selig the Clown did nothing to reign him in, but it doesn't change the fact that players like Ruth, Aaron, Griffey and Pujols didn't/don't need to bend every rule to succeed.

I think history will remember Bonds as a cheating piece of crap. And considering how the media is crucifying McGwire right now for daring to even coach (which I really wish he wouldn't, BTW), I don't even know if Bonds will make the Hall of Fame.

L.A. Chieffan
03-18-2010, 12:34 AM
I wonder if all the Cardinal fans are still going to be stroking Pujols nuts after he leaves for a big market team and becomes a superstar

Frazod
03-18-2010, 12:36 AM
I wonder if all the Cardinal fans are still going to be stroking Pujols nuts after he leaves for a big market team and becomes a superstar

1. St. Louis isn't Kansas City.

2. He's the No. 1 superstar in the game right now.

3. How long has it been since the Dodgers won a World Series? 1980-what?

|Zach|
03-18-2010, 12:38 AM
Baseball is about to come back.

Ew.

L.A. Chieffan
03-18-2010, 12:38 AM
St. Louis aint New York either.

To baseball and general sports fans yes, but he hasnt crossed over into mainstream yet.

DUHDUHDUHDUH

Frazod
03-18-2010, 12:39 AM
Baseball is about to come back.

Ew.

Thank God. Fuck I hate basketball.

Frazod
03-18-2010, 12:39 AM
St. Louis aint New York either.

To baseball and general sports fans yes, but he hasnt crossed over into mainstream yet.

DUHDUHDUHDUH

I guess being the Cubs of the West Coast makes Dodger fans bitter.

BigRedChief
03-18-2010, 12:42 AM
I wonder if all the Cardinal fans are still going to be stroking Pujols nuts after he leaves for a big market team and becomes a superstarI don't think that will ever happen. I think he loves it in St. Louis. But if it did it would be a crushing blow.

KC_Connection
03-18-2010, 01:32 AM
Who else wore the Darth Vader Elbow Guard for years, besides Bitchio (who benefitted in the same way but had no power). This "everybody did it" stuff is bullshit.

I would wager that most people wore a variation of it (and still do, without it being obvious). But of course, the attention has never been on most people like it's been on Barry Bonds (and that's partly his own fault).


Certainly, it's not his fault that Selig the Clown did nothing to reign him in, but it doesn't change the fact that players like Ruth, Aaron, Griffey and Pujols didn't/don't need to bend every rule to succeed.

What is this assumption based on?


I think history will remember Bonds as a cheating piece of crap. And considering how the media is crucifying McGwire right now for daring to even coach (which I really wish he wouldn't, BTW), I don't even know if Bonds will make the Hall of Fame.
Unfortunately it may take a while for him to make the HOF because of the hypocritical, ignorant morons that vote for it, but I would assume he gets in via the Veterans Committee at the very least. You can't have a baseball HOF without some of the greatest players of all time (Bonds, Clemens, ARod).

Willie Lanier
03-18-2010, 06:49 AM
I'm not sure if this will qualify as that generation, but for reasons inexplicable to me, Frank has always been someone I admired in a sport I don't claim to fully understand.

A good ole boy from Auburn that worked his tail off, taking advantage of his natural ability and refusing to succumb to a quick fix, you gotta love how The Big Hurt operated.

Speaking from a fan's perspective with an admittedly limited complex knowledge of the sport, all I needed to see was Frank Thomas using the awkwardly heavy slab of rebar from Comiskey Park for his batting practice to know: this is a guy I can support in baseball.

DumbHillbillies
03-18-2010, 06:51 AM
Griffey Jr. because he has the longevity, was a great offensive and defensive player(great centerfielder in his day), never been associated with any performance enhancers and appears to be a team guy. Pujols is a better power hitter but he defends at 1st base not a dynamic position like centerfield. Case closed.

DumbHillbillies
03-18-2010, 06:54 AM
I'm not sure if this will qualify as that generation, but for reasons inexplicable to me, Frank has always been someone I admired in a sport I don't claim to fully understand.

A good ole boy from Auburn that worked his tail off, taking advantage of his natural ability and refusing to succumb to a quick fix, you gotta love how The Big Hurt operated.

Speaking from a fan's perspective with an admittedly limited complex knowledge of the sport, all I needed to see was Frank Thomas using the awkwardly heavy slab of rebar from Comiskey Park for his batting practice to know: this is a guy I can support in baseball.

Yeah always loved watching the big hurt.

Marcellus
03-18-2010, 07:14 AM
Griffey Jr. because he has the longevity, was a great offensive and defensive player(great centerfielder in his day), never been associated with any performance enhancers and appears to be a team guy. Pujols is a better power hitter but he defends at 1st base not a dynamic position like centerfield. Case closed.

Actually your are incorrect because of his lack of longevity. He played well for a good period but when the injuries started mounting he was never better tan average.

Yea he tore it up for about 9 years in Seattle but the rest have been blah. He never played well in Cincy and rode his popularity from there on without doing much.

DumbHillbillies
03-18-2010, 08:39 AM
Actually your are incorrect because of his lack of longevity. He played well for a good period but when the injuries started mounting he was never better tan average.

Yea he tore it up for about 9 years in Seattle but the rest have been blah. He never played well in Cincy and rode his popularity from there on without doing much.

11 years in seattle to be exact and he hit 35 HR in 2005,30 in 2007 with Cincy. I agree he slowed down significantly with the injuries but I will take his total body of work. Offensively and Defensively.

Reerun_KC
03-18-2010, 08:58 AM
The ones the juiced up the most?

DJ's left nut
03-18-2010, 09:26 AM
Griffey Jr. because he has the longevity, was a great offensive and defensive player(great centerfielder in his day), never been associated with any performance enhancers and appears to be a team guy. Pujols is a better power hitter but he defends at 1st base not a dynamic position like centerfield. Case closed.

Pujols is a better hitter, period.

Albert's career BA is .334; the highest of Grif's was .327, but for the most part was a high .200's hitter. Even more striking is the difference in OBP - Griffey had 2 seasons in his career over .400 OBP; Pujols has never gone lower than .403 and has a career OBP roughly .070 higher. That's about 40 additional times on base/season - that's pretty incredible. The highest adjusted OPS of Griff's career was 171; Pujols average is 172. Then there's the consistency. Griffey - 8 career 100 RBI seasons; Pujols - 9 of them in 9 years. Albert's never played fewer than 148 games (pulled his oblique that year), has never had an OPS+ of less than 150, has never batted less than .314 in his soph slump year, and after striking out 93 times as a rookie, hasn't struck out more than 69 times since. He didn't get the nickname "The Machine" by accident - he's a hitting robot.

Griffey's swing could get long (he struck out significantly more frequently than Albert) and his strike zone recognition wasn't always what it could have been (again, look at hs OBP). He was a great hitter, but he could be pitched to. Albert, on the other hand, is simply an ideal hitter. He has an great feel for the zone, a perfectly balanced swing, a great approach at the plate and single-minded focus. Albert is just a better hitter than Griffey, and ultimately by a pretty fair amount - end of story.

And every time somone says that 1b isn't a critical defensive position, I have to point to the 2000 NY Mets. The 1999 squad was considered among the best defensive teams in baseball over the last couple of decades. The next season they returned their entire IF, minus John Olerud (replaced by Todd Zeile) and led the league in errors and unearned runs. An elite defensive 1b makes your entire IF significantly better. It really is an underrated defensive position.

KurtCobain
03-18-2010, 09:50 AM
I voted Griffey, but didn't mean to. My vote easily goes to Cal Ripken Jr.

Pioli Zombie
03-18-2010, 01:03 PM
Jose Guillen.
Posted via Mobile Device

Halfcan
03-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Future Yankee HOF, Albert Pujols.

LOL man if they get Big Al they would be unstoppable-oh wait..... they already are.

DumbHillbillies
03-18-2010, 04:23 PM
Pujols is a better hitter, period.

Albert's career BA is .334; the highest of Grif's was .327, but for the most part was a high .200's hitter. Even more striking is the difference in OBP - Griffey had 2 seasons in his career over .400 OBP; Pujols has never gone lower than .403 and has a career OBP roughly .070 higher. That's about 40 additional times on base/season - that's pretty incredible. The highest adjusted OPS of Griff's career was 171; Pujols average is 172. Then there's the consistency. Griffey - 8 career 100 RBI seasons; Pujols - 9 of them in 9 years. Albert's never played fewer than 148 games (pulled his oblique that year), has never had an OPS+ of less than 150, has never batted less than .314 in his soph slump year, and after striking out 93 times as a rookie, hasn't struck out more than 69 times since. He didn't get the nickname "The Machine" by accident - he's a hitting robot.

Griffey's swing could get long (he struck out significantly more frequently than Albert) and his strike zone recognition wasn't always what it could have been (again, look at hs OBP). He was a great hitter, but he could be pitched to. Albert, on the other hand, is simply an ideal hitter. He has an great feel for the zone, a perfectly balanced swing, a great approach at the plate and single-minded focus. Albert is just a better hitter than Griffey, and ultimately by a pretty fair amount - end of story.

And every time somone says that 1b isn't a critical defensive position, I have to point to the 2000 NY Mets. The 1999 squad was considered among the best defensive teams in baseball over the last couple of decades. The next season they returned their entire IF, minus John Olerud (replaced by Todd Zeile) and led the league in errors and unearned runs. An elite defensive 1b makes your entire IF significantly better. It really is an underrated defensive position.

Better power hitter/hitter I concede that, but griffey was a better all around player. You can't compare the defensive contribution of a centerfielder to a 1st baseman. That stat about the 1999-2000 mets could have caused by a number of different variables. Flat out you don't have to be athletic to field at 1st base. But you do have to be a special athlete to play centerfield.

Frazod
03-18-2010, 04:28 PM
Better power hitter/hitter I concede that, but griffey was a better all around player. You can't compare the defensive contribution of a centerfielder to a 1st baseman. That stat about the 1999-2000 mets could have caused by a number of different variables. Flat out you don't have to be athletic to field at 1st base. But you do have to be a special athlete to play centerfield.

What difference does it make how good you are when you can't stay healthy? Durability is part of the greatness equation, IMO.

DumbHillbillies
03-18-2010, 07:23 PM
The guy has been playing for 20 years, injuries took away some of those years but that is still a long career. Besides you can't get injured standing on 1st base catching perfectly thrown balls.

Steron
03-18-2010, 07:33 PM
I'll go with Cal Ripken Jr. Great leader. High character guy. Fans love him.

If you throw out 1981 and 2000 when he only played 23 and 83 games, he never had less than 113 hits. From 1982 to 1993 he never hit less than 20 home runs. Career fielding percentage of .977 over 21 years.

1982 Rookie of the Year
1983 Player of the Year
1983 AL Most Valuable Player
1991 Player of the Year
1991 AL Most Valuable Player
1991 Gold Glove
1992 Gold Glove

8 time Silver Slugger
19 time Time All Star

SDChiefs
03-19-2010, 01:18 PM
:shake:

Leave it to the resident donkey fan to say something so utterly retarded. It's Pujols hands down. Arod at a distant second. There are no other options.

Uh.... No. Please move along.:rolleyes:

DJ's left nut
03-19-2010, 01:26 PM
Better power hitter/hitter I concede that, but griffey was a better all around player. You can't compare the defensive contribution of a centerfielder to a 1st baseman. That stat about the 1999-2000 mets could have caused by a number of different variables. Flat out you don't have to be athletic to field at 1st base. But you do have to be a special athlete to play centerfield.

You don't have to be athletic to be an acceptable fielder at 1b; you do have to be athletic to be a superlative one. Pujols is.

You're underestimating the importance of an elite 1b, especially on a groundball staff. Think of how many errors they save for their IFers. Think of how many runs they can save by knowing when to go home with a soft grounder instead of taking the out at first or knowing when to start that 3-6-3 DP. Even the stretch to just nip a runner on the back end of a simple 4-6-3 saves the same out that Griffey's diving catch in center does...but nobody notices it. A passable 1b doesn't make the stretch, doesn't make the dig, doesn't make the right decision. An elite one does.

A great CFer is certainly more spectacular, but not necessarily more valuable. For every diving catch Griffey made that another OFer would've taken on a hop for a single, Pujols can point to a tough pick in the dirt on an errant throw from short that saves an out himself. Griffey can rob a HR but Albert (who has a 3b arm at 1b) can point to the dozens of strong throws he's made home over the years to cut down a runner that no other 1b makes to save a run (and often stop a pending rally).

Yes, I would ultimately take a Griffey/Edmonds in CF before I'd take a Pujols/Snow at 1b, but it's not nearly as cut and dry as you're suggesting. It's signficantly closer than conventional baseball knowledge would have you believe and there are any number of statistics and/or andectodal stories to support that. There's certainly not a great enough disparity to make up for the fact that Pujols is a significantly better hitter than Griffey was.

And while Griffey may have been faster, there's no smarter baserunner in the game than Albert Pujols.

Griffey was the more spectacular player, but Pujols is a better one.

DJ's left nut
03-19-2010, 01:44 PM
I'll go with Cal Ripken Jr. Great leader. High character guy. Fans love him.

If you throw out 1981 and 2000 when he only played 23 and 83 games, he never had less than 113 hits. From 1982 to 1993 he never hit less than 20 home runs. Career fielding percentage of .977 over 21 years.

1982 Rookie of the Year
1983 Player of the Year
1983 AL Most Valuable Player
1991 Player of the Year
1991 AL Most Valuable Player
1991 Gold Glove
1992 Gold Glove

8 time Silver Slugger
19 time Time All Star

Damn...did Cal die in 1991?

Oh wait...he played another decade+ of exceedingly mediocre (at best) baseball?

Bummer...guess he's probably not the GOAT then (or of his generation).

Never had less than 113 hits? The man had 600 ABs/season, he needed to bat a whopping .188 to manage 113 hits. Tony Pena Jr. could have had 113 hits with the number of ABs he had. In two of his prime seasons (26 and 27 yrs old) he batted .252 and .265 respectively; lets ease off on the 'number of hits' argument...his ain't that impressive.

He was the king of hollow offense. Sure, he had 20 HRs a bunch of times, but even with those HRs, combine his 100 RBI seasons and his 100 run seasons and you get a total of 7; Pujols has 9 100 RBI seasons and 8 100 run seasons already. His glove was monsterously overrated; his career fielding #s are pretty much exactly league average for his position (ask Rafael Palmiero if offense doesn't make a difference in that GG award...and Cal still only won 2 of them; both of which should have gone to Vizquel or perhaps Guillen).

Despite leading the league in games every season, he only led the league in total bases once and had a career OBP only a tick better than Albert's batting average. Oh yeah, and the best SLG% of his career is a whopping .060 lower than Albert's career average (his 2nd best is over .100 lower).

This isn't even close. Cal Ripken could've been Ozzie Smith defensively and the massive difference in offensive production more than makes up for it. Cal Ripken isn't in the top 50 players of the last 25 years.

This is my new litmus test of baseball knowledge. If you think Cal Ripken Jr. belongs in a discussion of the best baseball players of the last 25 years, you fail.

Pasta Giant Meatball
03-19-2010, 01:56 PM
Great defensively, outstanding baserunner, and the most consistent hitter the game has seen. Take his career lows in all categories for his career and you get:


.314 AVG
.394 OBP
32 HR
103 RBI
99R
69BB
93K
177Hits
.561 Slugging
.955 OPS

That is a career year for alot of guys.

whoman69
03-19-2010, 07:04 PM
Bonds has to be in the conversation, but you can only trust his numbers up until he started taking the 'roids. Don't even say innocent until proven guilty. There's a hell of a big smoking gun. Arod has to be taken entirely out of the picture because we don't even know when he started shooting up, the story always changes. Griffey doesn't match up espececially when you consider his numbers came from the biggest home run era in baseball history. He also hasn't been able to keep himself healthy since he left Seattle.

RJ
03-19-2010, 10:05 PM
[QUOTE=DJ's left nut;6616193]
Cal Ripken isn't in the top 50 players of the last 25 years.

QUOTE]


Bill James, among others, would disagree with you.

I'm going to assume you were exaggerating to make a point.

Steron
03-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Stuff

I looked at it as players from my generation. Pujols isn't from my generation. Ripken is. Being from Orioles territory probably skewed my answer. Anyhow, I'd still take Cal Jr. That's what make these discussions fun. Everyone has a different answer. How is that a fail? Or are you just being a dick just to be a dick?

Ripken played on generally terrible teams. Out of a total of 3762 possible regular season games during his career they lost 1642. That makes a winning percentage of .440. That's losing an impressive 6 games out of every 10. I'd say that equals a pretty terrible 21 season record. Except for a few seasons along the way, he was the Orioles on offense AND defense. Couple that with never missing a game for 17 STRAIGHT seasons. How is that not impressive?

Hitting a round ball with a round bat is the single hardest thing to do in sports. Hitting 20 or more home runs for 12 straight seasons is a model of consistency. Especially playing a position that is not known for power numbers. Cal Jr. was the prototype for the modern shortstop.

Pujols is a much better hitter. Nobody can argue that. BUT he plays on MUCH better teams. So far during Pujols' career they have 818 wins against 649 losses. .793 winning percentage.

Just comparing the W-L records during each players tenure shows me Pujols has played on vastly better teams than Ripken. As such he has had more opportunities to drive in runs and score runs.

For information sake:

Ripken Jr's career batting average with Runners in Scoring Position was .271. Better than the likes of Maris, Rose, Schmidt, Ozzie Smith, Strawberry, Palmeiro, Reggie, Andruw Jones, and Killebrew.