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Tribal Warfare
03-17-2010, 11:56 PM
Chiefs' offseason moves are impressive (http://www.kansascity.com/2010/03/17/1820023/whitlock-chiefs-offseason-moves.html)
By JASON WHITLOCK
The Kansas City Star

OK, before these NCAA Tournament games become really interesting, let me pause from our hoopsfest and admit that Chiefs general manager Scott Pioli and head coach Todd Haley are having a very good offseason.

There, I said it. And I meant it.

The signing of former Indianapolis guard Ryan Lilja was the final straw for me. Pioli is starting to live up to his reputation.

Remember when Carl Peterson used to brag about what a great Plan B free agent Dan Saleaumua was? Sal was a defensive tackle. In his initial offseason as GM, Peterson snatched up Sal from the Detroit Lions junkyard. For the next eight seasons, Sal raised hell in the interior of the line while Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith raised hell on the outside.

I don’t want to overstate this, but without Saleaumua, Thomas wouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame today. People outside of Kansas City probably don’t even remember Big Dan. That’s fine. We do.

Lilja is a Dan Saleaumua on the offensive side. Lilja’s signing means next to nothing around the league. After five productive seasons, the Colts let Lilja walk because they mistakenly believe they need a 310-pounder at guard to run the ball more effectively. Fine. Their mistake is our gain.

Lilja is one of my favorite NFL players. I don’t need to refresh your memory about Lilja’s history. I met the kid when he was a senior at Shawnee Mission Northwest. I covered his career at Kansas State. I was blown away by his performance during his free-agent tryout with the Chiefs in 2004. I’ve followed his entire Indianapolis career.

The kid can play at a high level. Getting Lilja for $7.5 million over three years — peanuts — is the best free-agent signing of the offseason by any team. He’ll be a starter in Kansas City for the next six years and maybe longer.

You add Lilja to Brian Waters and Casey Wiegmann, whom the Chiefs re-signed from Denver, and the foundation of the organization has been repaired. Matt Cassel has a pocket to step up in. The Chiefs will be effective in short-yardage running situations.

Leadership on the offensive side of the ball is a total nonissue. You can’t do better than Waters, Wiegmann and Lilja.

Well, actually, you can. Pioli signed veteran running back Thomas Jones to serve as a backup to Jamaal Charles. Jones was so highly regarded as a New York Jet that the franchise took out an ad in this newspaper thanking Jones for his three years of service in New York.

That’s respect. Jones’ role on this team reminds me of the role Marcus Allen played here during the mid-1990s. Allen was the veteran leader who ran for all the tough yards and commanded the respect of everyone in the locker room. Of course, Jones doesn’t have Allen’s résumé. That’s fine. Few people have Allen’s résumé.

Jones, Lilja and Wiegmann give the Chiefs a personality. The Chiefs are going to be old-school tough. The idiots are going to get chin-checked … and not by Todd Haley.

I like where this is headed. Brandon Flowers, Tamba Hali and Mike Vrabel will give the defense a personality.

The coaching additions of Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel will enhance the attitude of the team. Weis and Crennel can’t really be questioned as coordinators.

I ran into Haley about a month ago at a restaurant, and we chatted for about an hour. He’s relaxed. He’s energized by Weis and Crennel. Haley has learned some tough lessons.

Is there still plenty of work to be done?

Absolutely. The Chiefs still need help at safety, receiver, linebacker, tight end and defensive line. I’m still on the fence about Cassel.

But I have to give Pioli and Haley credit. They’re doing this offseason what I expected from the outset. They’re building a competitive football team. Good for them and us.

KCtotheSB
03-18-2010, 12:17 AM
OH GREAT MORE SHIT FROM WHITLOC.....wait...what the hell?

Pushead2
03-18-2010, 12:21 AM
not bad from this sack of shit this time around. Very Neutral...

CaliforniaChief
03-18-2010, 12:25 AM
It must be Opposite Day.

Miles
03-18-2010, 12:31 AM
No mention of Lilja’s knee issues? He did start every game last year but is health does seem a bit questionable at best.

Tribal Warfare
03-18-2010, 12:37 AM
It must be Opposite Day.

Whitlock was probably plastered beyond belief from St. Patrick's Day celebrations before he wrote this

Tuckdaddy
03-18-2010, 12:43 AM
Casey/Vrabel are too old but Jones and Lajita are real nice.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-18-2010, 01:18 AM
I'm sensing Jeff George-esque objectivity from Whitlock in his analysis of Lilja.

Miles
03-18-2010, 01:26 AM
I'm sensing Jeff George-esque objectivity from Whitlock in his analysis of Lilja.

Hardly similar but wouldn't surprise me if he blindly supports a local guy.

Bane
03-18-2010, 01:30 AM
Maybe he just woke from his winter coma and thought it was April 1st.
Posted via Mobile Device

BarrySPAMAID
03-18-2010, 01:40 AM
Occasionally, I will read an article from this douchebag. Only when I scroll the comments and see that he wrote something positive.

Congrats Jason, your not a douchebag today! But tomorrow's coming....turn coat.

Hog Farmer
03-18-2010, 02:20 AM
I hope he's right about Lilja

FAX
03-18-2010, 03:24 AM
Uhhh ... Is this the same Haley who was going to have devastating "ego conflicts" with Weis? The same Pioli who only knew how to do player deals with Parcells and BB? The same Haley who completely lost the locker room? The same Haley and Pioli who don't speak to each other?

Wow. Those guys must have really changed.

FAX

Fritz88
03-18-2010, 04:06 AM
These were good signings but Lilja to Jason Whitlock is Chase Coffman and Nate Davis to fat Jason. Lilja is a good player but he gets extra love because Whitlock covered him when he was young. Probably friends with his mom and dad too.

Pioli Zombie
03-18-2010, 04:26 AM
NO NO NO NO there's mustnt ever be anything positive said about the Chiefs.
Posted via Mobile Device

BigMeatballDave
03-18-2010, 04:33 AM
Ok, Jason. Its better this season. So far. Try not to get ahead of yourself. Factor in last season, and its still fail. Pioli needs a kickass draft to lift my opinion of him.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pushead2
03-18-2010, 04:57 AM
Ok, Jason. Its better this season. So far. Try not to get ahead of you're self. Factor in last season, and its still fail. Pioli needs a kickass draft to lift my opinion of him.
Posted via Mobile Device

**** the draft, how bout a Chiefs football team with a winning record again. Less shit on paper more doing on the field are the results I want.

keg in kc
03-18-2010, 05:29 AM
April Fools!

Wait, it's still March.

WTF.

bevischief
03-18-2010, 05:36 AM
Maybe he just woke from his winter coma and thought it was April 1st.
Posted via Mobile Device

ROFLROFL

Count Zarth
03-18-2010, 05:39 AM
Jones, Lilja and Wiegmann give the Chiefs a personality. The Chiefs are going to be old-school tough. We'll see how tough two sub-290 linemen are on the goal line. That's all I have to say about that.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-18-2010, 05:52 AM
Whitlock is pissed, someone ran the April 1st article two weeks early.

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 05:54 AM
I'm ready for positive news. I'm tired of being negative and cynical towards the Chiefs. Bring on the draft.

I'm feeling pretty confident that Haley/Pioli know what they are doing, and will have a great draft.

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 05:54 AM
(too homerish??)

BigMeatballDave
03-18-2010, 05:59 AM
**** the draft, how bout a Chiefs football team with a winning record again. Less shit on paper more doing on the field are the results I want.I agree, but he still needs a good draft.

Pushead2
03-18-2010, 06:02 AM
I agree, but he still needs a good draft.

definitely, I forgot to mention that I agreed with your statement too.

Red Beans
03-18-2010, 06:04 AM
Is this his April Fools colum come early? The Fat One must be on some new meds...I hear hear the Xanax is delightful sir, care for another round of Prozac?

Marcellus
03-18-2010, 06:07 AM
I cant wait to see how this is spun.

Whitlock writes negative shit and certain people iwll say he is correct. (We all know who they are).

He wrote this positive article and Whitlock will be a home town kid biased moron.

Personally I think he was a moron before and is still a moron.

But as they say talk enough and say enough things eventually you will be right about something.

I also find it interesting he mentions nothing about Lillja'ss knees. I am beginning to wonder how valid that story is considering he passed a physical here and played 19 games last season.

ChiefMojo
03-18-2010, 06:07 AM
Anyone that doesn't see the Chiefs have actually had a pretty good off-season is just blinded in negative energy and will never be happy with what he Chiefs are doing. For the first time in many years you can actually make sense with what the Chiefs are trying to do. Sure they might not always be the players the armchair GM's would covet, but the pick-ups again make sense through the FA market and definite upgrade in the coaching staff. I can't wait for the Draft!

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 06:17 AM
Anyone that doesn't see the Chiefs have actually had a pretty good off-season is just blinded in negative energy and will never be happy with what he Chiefs are doing. For the first time in many years you can actually make sense with what the Chiefs are trying to do. Sure they might not always be the players the armchair GM's would covet, but the pick-ups again make sense through the FA market and definite upgrade in the coaching staff. I can't wait for the Draft!

I can't either Mojo.

I'm excited to be a Chiefs fan for the first time in about 5 years.

We can actually see them addressing the problem areas, i.e. signings of Weigmann, and Lilja as well as a quality backup/1,2 punch back in T.Jones, and the re-signing of Chambers as a solid wr.

Warrior5
03-18-2010, 06:21 AM
The State of Missouri needs to send out an Amber alert for Whitlock... obviously a pod-person wrote this article.

Buehler445
03-18-2010, 06:22 AM
I'm kinda "meh" on Lilja. I like the Jones signing. Kinda just what we need. And weigman is older than god.

All in all, kinda what I expected in FA, not really good or bad, but it is surprising Whitlock would make these comments.
Posted via Mobile Device

Marcellus
03-18-2010, 06:24 AM
We'll see how tough two sub-290 linemen are on the goal line. That's all I have to say about that.

There is this thing that is allowed called substitutions. And then when in goal line situations they sometimes substitute players with this thing called a "Heavy Package" or "goal line Package".

Hope this helps.:)

Warrior5
03-18-2010, 06:30 AM
There is this thing that is allowed called substitutions. And then when in goal line situations they sometimes substitute players with this thing called a "Heavy Package" or "goal line Package".

Hope this helps.:)

I strongly recommend that you not discuss "heavy packages" with GoChiefs...

Count Zarth
03-18-2010, 06:36 AM
There is this thing that is allowed called substitutions. And then when in goal line situations they sometimes substitute players with this thing called a "Heavy Package" or "goal line Package".

Hope this helps.:) Yeah, they're going to take out the starting right guard and center for a goal-line package. There is huge precedent for this in the NFL.

Otter
03-18-2010, 06:37 AM
They wanted a year to assess the talent they inherited and decided who fit and who did not before addressing needs they may or not not have to address.

Fascinating! :spock:

Count Zarth
03-18-2010, 06:39 AM
They wanted a year to assess the talent they inherited and decided who fit and who did not before addressing needs they may or not not have to address.

Fascinating!



:spock: Your argument is null and void.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/226447/677-ap090605049601.standalone.prod_affiliate.81.jpg

penchief
03-18-2010, 07:08 AM
I'm kinda "meh" on Lilja. I like the Jones signing. Kinda just what we need. And weigman is older than god.

All in all, kinda what I expected in FA, not really good or bad, but it is surprising Whitlock would make these comments.
Posted via Mobile Device

I agree. Something is amiss. A little too much praise for the offseason moves, IMO.

Is Whitlock trying to change his tune because he knows he's been an idiot? I don't know but I'm not any more comfortable with fluff pieces than I am the baseless character attacks he's resorted to thus far. Even so, I'm hopeful that he's abandoning the personal attacks in favor of more football oriented columns.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2010, 07:12 AM
Did Lilja fail his physical with the Colts or not? As a Chief fan I'm always in the Kendrall Bell camp, as opposed to the Willie Roaf camp, when it comes to signing players who are injured or coming off injuries. I'm always expecting the worst.

KCUnited
03-18-2010, 07:25 AM
Fesco had on an Indy media guy this morning who said he had heard nothing regarding Lilja failing a physical up there. He chalked his release up to the salary he was due this year and the fact that Polian threw the OLine under the bus after the season and wanted to go bigger which made him expendable. The guy said Lilja's strength is in pass protection but doesn't get much push in the run game and on short yardage downs, where Indy struggled. He made Lilja out to be a character guy, much along the right 53 kind of mind set here.

Chiefs=Good
03-18-2010, 07:33 AM
Oh Noes!!21! Whitlocks turned true fan!11!

Chiefnj2
03-18-2010, 07:44 AM
Fesco had on an Indy media guy this morning who said he had heard nothing regarding Lilja failing a physical up there. He chalked his release up to the salary he was due this year and the fact that Polian threw the OLine under the bus after the season and wanted to go bigger which made him expendable. The guy said Lilja's strength is in pass protection but doesn't get much push in the run game and on short yardage downs, where Indy struggled. He made Lilja out to be a character guy, much along the right 53 kind of mind set here.

Thanks for the info. What is odd is that a few weeks ago they paid Lilja a decent sized bonus.

Shaid
03-18-2010, 07:51 AM
Whitlock just knows he can't really condemn the Chiefs for the recent moves so he's decided to take the opportunity to show that he is "objective". This way he can come back and slam the Chiefs at a later date and say,"I'm really not Anti-Pioli/Haley. Look at the article I wrote on them in the spring."

the Talking Can
03-18-2010, 07:55 AM
has it occurred to anyone that maybe aprils fools should be mentioned in regards to this article....

penchief
03-18-2010, 07:55 AM
Whitlock just knows he can't really condemn the Chiefs for the recent moves so he's decided to take the opportunity to show that he is "objective". This way he can come back and slam the Chiefs at a later date and say,"I'm really not Anti-Pioli/Haley. Look at the article I wrote on them in the spring."

This is probably as good a guess as any.

Reerun_KC
03-18-2010, 07:57 AM
Whitlock just knows he can't really condemn the Chiefs for the recent moves so he's decided to take the opportunity to show that he is "objective". This way he can come back and slam the Chiefs at a later date and say,"I'm really not Anti-Pioli/Haley. Look at the article I wrote on them in the spring."

This, its just garbage spin from the biggest piece of garbage in the KC Media (Second to the Voice of KSU Sports.)


I am sure it pissed off alot of his following on the board this morning.... Whitlock might loose a few of the faithful... Until he comes back out with another Anti-Pioli/Haley article....

Frosty
03-18-2010, 08:29 AM
I like where this is headed. Brandon Flowers, Tamba Hali and Mike Vrabel will give the defense a personality.

I was with him up until this point. :spock: After that, the April Fool's theory gained more ground with me.

InChiefsHell
03-18-2010, 08:31 AM
I don't see a negative to signing Lilja at all. He played all last season and at a high level. I must say it's a bit mysterious that the COlts let him go, but whatever. This is NOT a bad signing. He's only been in the league for 6 years or so, he's got a ton of gas left in the tank.

Jack
03-18-2010, 08:31 AM
This is just a setup.

Wonder what his comments will be after the first loss of the season.


posted via my own keyboard

KCFLAKE
03-18-2010, 08:34 AM
Whitlock has been a joke for a long time now. His opinion is meaningless to any real sports fan. I agree with the column though. GREAT off season for the Chiefs so far. Let's hope it continues and get a stud Safety, LB, TE and nose tackle.

JD10367
03-18-2010, 08:34 AM
Geez, I've only been around here for less than a year, and I know that if this Whitlock dude is being positive, it's the equivalent of

TO THE...

http://rabidrepublicanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Oasis-of-the-Seas.jpg

(BTW, that's the RCCL Oasis of the Seas, and I'm booked for next March.) :D

Reerun_KC
03-18-2010, 08:39 AM
Geez, I've only been around here for less than a year, and I know that if this Whitlock dude is being positive, it's the equivalent of

TO THE...

http://rabidrepublicanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Oasis-of-the-Seas.jpg

(BTW, that's the RCCL Oasis of the Seas, and I'm booked for next March.) :D

To the hot air ballon?

JD10367
03-18-2010, 08:40 AM
To the hot air ballon?

No, that's after the first four games if they start 1-3. :D

Chief Henry
03-18-2010, 08:40 AM
DO we have some HOPE after all ?

CaliforniaChief
03-18-2010, 08:53 AM
Has there been a Whitlock article not mentioning encounters with Chiefs leadership in restaurants?

That said, it's not only a two-way street with those more critical of the Chiefs and, conversely more in line with Whitlock's articles...but also those of us who have labeled Whitlock as having an agenda. You can't pull this article away from the labels we might have placed on him without saying this was driven by agenda, as well.

RedThat
03-18-2010, 09:06 AM
Uhhh ... Is this the same Haley who was going to have devastating "ego conflicts" with Weis? The same Pioli who only knew how to do player deals with Parcells and BB? The same Haley who completely lost the locker room? The same Haley and Pioli who don't speak to each other?

Wow. Those guys must have really changed.

FAX

lol

I hear ya FAX. One thing I've come to realize, Whitlock seems to write his articles strictly based off emotion more than anything.

mlyonsd
03-18-2010, 09:12 AM
Haley must have picked up the check.

Reerun_KC
03-18-2010, 09:16 AM
lol

I hear ya FAX. One thing I've come to realize, Whitlock seems to write his articles strictly based off emotion more than anything.

Whitlock has the jilted lovers emotions going on... Once he realized that Pioli and Haley could give to shits less about his fat ass. He has done nothing buy cry like a 14 year old girl who just broke up with her boyfriend...

Detoxing
03-18-2010, 09:20 AM
WHOA!

4 pages into this thread and there hasn't been a single "I don't usually agree with Whitlock but this one is spot on" post?

WTF CP? You guys are losing your burst.

Frosty
03-18-2010, 09:24 AM
I just figured it out. This is a setup to write an article on how terrible a coach Haley is when the team finishes around .500. The main thrust of that article will be that all the pieces were in place because of the good off-season, so the "poor finish" will be because Haley is a bad coach.


:)

InChiefsHell
03-18-2010, 09:25 AM
lol

I hear ya FAX. One thing I've come to realize, Whitlock seems to write his articles strictly based off emotion more than anything.

Soooo...JW is a woman then...it all makes sense now!:D

Reerun_KC
03-18-2010, 09:28 AM
WHOA!

4 pages into this thread and there hasn't been a single "I don't usually agree with Whitlock but this one is spot on" post?

WTF CP? You guys are losing your burst.


Its because Whitlock isnt menstruating today, whichusually causes a mass flow from the normal menstruaters here..

Ebolapox
03-18-2010, 09:34 AM
eh, proof's in the puddin'

Brainiac
03-18-2010, 09:35 AM
Did Lilja fail his physical with the Colts or not? As a Chief fan I'm always in the Kendrall Bell camp, as opposed to the Willie Roaf camp, when it comes to signing players who are injured or coming off injuries. I'm always expecting the worst.
Good things can happen when you sign a player coming off an injury. Just ask the Saints.

Mr. Laz
03-18-2010, 09:46 AM
so far the offseason has made sense but we still have yet to add any impact talent.

in fact, we haven't really added much 'impact talent' since Pioli arrived.

which is disappointing

Frosty
03-18-2010, 09:49 AM
so far the offseason has made sense but we still have yet to add any impact talent.

in fact, we haven't really added much 'impact talent' since Pioli arrived.

which is disappointing

I hope that will happen in the draft but, after last year, I'm not holding my breath.

jspchief
03-18-2010, 10:06 AM
so far the offseason has made sense but we still have yet to add any impact talent.

in fact, we haven't really added much 'impact talent' since Pioli arrived.

which is disappointingWhat kind of impact are you looking for?

Pioli has to build an entire team. It's probably going to be a several year process.

I'm really surprised at the number of people that seem to want instant results. Sure a guy like Boldin is an instant big upgrade, but how old is he by the time the rest of the team is in place to field a winner? Are we trying to get back to 8-8 football, or build a championship team?

I'll agree that we missed a big chance to add impact talent in last year's draft, but in terms of free agency I don't mind what's being done so far.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2010, 10:11 AM
What kind of impact are you looking for?

Pioli has to build an entire team. It's probably going to be a several year process.

I'm really surprised at the number of people that seem to want instant results. Sure a guy like Boldin is an instant big upgrade, but how old is he by the time the rest of the team is in place to field a winner? Are we trying to get back to 8-8 football, or build a championship team?

I'll agree that we missed a big chance to add impact talent in last year's draft, but in terms of free agency I don't mind what's being done so far.

You don't build a championship team with Boldin, but you do with Jones, Lilja and Weigman?

MahiMike
03-18-2010, 10:12 AM
(too homerish??)

I got wood.

OnTheWarpath58
03-18-2010, 10:15 AM
You don't build a championship team with Boldin, but you do with Jones, Lilja and Weigman?

Beat me to it.

Might as well throw in 29 year old Shaun Smith and 32 year old Chris Chambers.

Oh, and 76 year old Mike Vrabel.

jspchief
03-18-2010, 10:20 AM
You don't build a championship team with Boldin, but you do with Jones, Lilja and Weigman?The price for Boldin would have exceeded that of all of those guys. And I'm not saying Boldin is a bad addition, but it makes more sense for a team like the Ravens than a team where he's going to be nearing the end of his career before they become legit.

I don't expect any of them to be part of the puzzle (maybe Lilja), but the Chiefs still need to make an effort to field a team. They have to fill the holes with something, but that doesn't mean they're going to go out and fill all of those holes with pro-bowlers. You don't build a sundae with the cherry on the bottom.

I expect the foundation to come through the draft and our current youth for the first few years.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2010, 10:21 AM
Beat me to it.

Might as well throw in 29 year old Shaun Smith and 32 year old Chris Chambers.

Oh, and 76 year old Mike Vrabel.

I forgot about Chambers. Is he really 32? Wow.

I don't think any of the signings are "bad" per se, but would have liked Boldin, Foote or even Brady Quinn for a 5th round pick.

MahiMike
03-18-2010, 10:22 AM
Wow, no hate for management, racial undertones or anything. Haley must've bought his ribs at the restaurant.

boogblaster
03-18-2010, 10:24 AM
Hopefully we have a pocket protection .. it will help the O with both their short yardage passing and running ...

OnTheWarpath58
03-18-2010, 10:24 AM
I forgot about Chambers. Is he really 32? Wow.

I don't think any of the signings are "bad" per se, but would have liked Boldin, Foote or even Brady Quinn for a 5th round pick.

He'll be 32 before the season starts.

Mr. Laz
03-18-2010, 10:35 AM
What kind of impact are you looking for?

Pioli has to build an entire team. It's probably going to be a several year process.

I'm really surprised at the number of people that seem to want instant results. Sure a guy like Boldin is an instant big upgrade, but how old is he by the time the rest of the team is in place to field a winner? Are we trying to get back to 8-8 football, or build a championship team?

I'll agree that we missed a big chance to add impact talent in last year's draft, but in terms of free agency I don't mind what's being done so far.instant results?

we are in year 2 and haven't made any measurable progress. So far all the progress has been "intangible".

i haven't given up yet ... not even close but at some point we need to add "impact talent"

so far last's years draft doesn't appear to have added a single game changer type player ... not one. Drafting a DE at #5 you hope for Reggie White type impact, instead we got Eric Hicks.

free agency we add supporting cast type players and still remain like 60 million dollars below the cap. The amount of money we are below the cap exceeds the amount of money we are actually paying? Seriously?

This free agency was better but we still didn't add a single stud type player. Thomas jones is the closest we came to anything resembling it.

we MUST do better in this year's draft. We can't afford to have another draft where the players we picked are basically invisible all year. It's too early to call them busts or Pioli a failure but we've got to do much,much better.

i'm not just bitching ... Pioli got his talent evaluation year so now it's time to step up and do something.

HemiEd
03-18-2010, 10:36 AM
Uhhh ... Is this the same Haley who was going to have devastating "ego conflicts" with Weis? The same Pioli who only knew how to do player deals with Parcells and BB? The same Haley who completely lost the locker room? The same Haley and Pioli who don't speak to each other?

Wow. Those guys must have really changed.

FAX
Somebody did change, or had an offer they can't refuse.

LaChapelle
03-18-2010, 10:47 AM
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HemiEd
03-18-2010, 10:57 AM
I forgot about Chambers. Is he really 32? Wow.

I don't think any of the signings are "bad" per se, but would have liked Boldin, Foote or even Brady Quinn for a 5th round pick.

Do you think Boldin would fit in to the team they are trying to create? Why Quinn?

Isn't it is pretty obvious he can't carry Brodie Croyle's jock?

Croyle has a couple injuries, and he is totally written off by some of you. I personally think he is the best QB on the roster.

dallaschiefsfan
03-18-2010, 11:01 AM
WHOA!

4 pages into this thread and there hasn't been a single "I don't usually agree with Whitlock but this one is spot on" post?

WTF CP? You guys are losing your burst.

I've never understood that kind of reaction. He's an idiot...whether I agree or disagree with what he writes. Doesn't change my opinion of the guy. Maybe others are growing up and having the same "non-response" when he happens to agree with them.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2010, 11:08 AM
Do you think Boldin would fit in to the team they are trying to create? Why Quinn?

Isn't it is pretty obvious he can't carry Brodie Croyle's jock?

Croyle has a couple injuries, and he is totally written off by some of you. I personally think he is the best QB on the roster.

Do I think Boldin would fit in? Sure, why not, he's worked with Haley before.

Quinn because Weis is familiar with him and got really good production out of the kid. If you believe in Weis, his scheme and his development of players, why wouldn't you risk a late round pick on Quinn? If he sucks, no big deal. I think he's started less games than Sanchez at this point. At worst he pushes Cassel a little bit, at best he turns into the first round QB some people thought he could be.

Get back to me the day Croyle can finish 3 straight games without an injury.

OnTheWarpath58
03-18-2010, 11:09 AM
Do you think Boldin would fit in to the team they are trying to create? Why Quinn?

Isn't it is pretty obvious he can't carry Brodie Croyle's jock?

Croyle has a couple injuries, and he is totally written off by some of you. I personally think he is the best QB on the roster.

There's no doubt that Croyle is the most talented QB on the roster. But if he can't stay healthy, it means nothing.

I'd love to see a true, open competition between him and Cassel, but it won't happen.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2010, 11:11 AM
There's no doubt that Croyle is the most talented QB on the roster. But if he can't stay healthy, it means nothing.

I'd love to see a true, open competition between him and Cassel, but it won't happen.

It's not like Croyle played well in the preseason.

Danman
03-18-2010, 11:15 AM
We must have awoken in Bizarro World this morning. This is not JWhit.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-18-2010, 11:18 AM
Heh, Jason Whitlock can't win for losing on this board.

Reerun_KC
03-18-2010, 11:19 AM
Heh, Jason Whitlock can't win for losing on this board.

Poor poor Jason, someone should by his fast ass some ice cream....:deevee:

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 12:47 PM
Heh, Jason Whitlock can't win for losing on this board.

seriously, people complain when he is negative and now are complaining that he isn't...complaining enough??

I'm tired of doom and gloom.

They have assembled a good base. Just because they signed Jones, Lilja, Weiggman, and Chambers doesn't mean they aren't going to build through the draft. IMHO they are upgrades over the shit we did have.

And they didnt' spend a lot on free agents either, they signed them to cheap contracts. And Chambers was solid for us last year, why be upset about re-signing him?

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 12:48 PM
Poor poor Jason, someone should by his fast ass some ice cream....:deevee:

nothing about Jason Whitlock is fast :D

Reerun_KC
03-18-2010, 12:50 PM
nothing about Jason Whitlock is fast :D
Nice catch....

DeezNutz
03-18-2010, 12:56 PM
seriously, people complain when he is negative and now are complaining that he isn't...complaining enough??

I'm tired of doom and gloom.

They have assembled a good base. Just because they signed Jones, Lilja, Weiggman, and Chambers doesn't mean they aren't going to build through the draft. IMHO they are upgrades over the shit we did have.

And they didnt' spend a lot on free agents either, they signed them to cheap contracts. And Chambers was solid for us last year, why be upset about re-signing him?

Who is the "they"?

I'd assume you're referring to the previous regime because they acquired the only foundational talent we have on the roster to this point.

MahiMike
03-18-2010, 01:00 PM
Croyle has a couple injuries, and he is totally written off by some of you. I personally think he is the best QB on the roster.

I dunno about that but he's definitely better than Quinn.

spanky 52
03-18-2010, 01:00 PM
The part about him saying the Jets showed class with the ad in the KC Star is bs. That was damage control on the part of the Jets. There are some unhappy players on the Jets because of Jones leaving.

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 01:10 PM
Who is the "they"?

I'd assume you're referring to the previous regime because they acquired the only foundational talent we have on the roster to this point.

I disagree, Chambers was signed under this regime though he is 31 he will was a solid receiver last year.

Thomas Jones was the #3 back in the league last year, and we signed him...cheaply.

They (Pioli/Haley is who I was referring to), also filled the coordinator positions with the best available coaches in Crennel and Weis.

Signing Lilja and Weiggman addresses a big problem on the OL. Last year's draft sucked, yes, I was just as pissed as anyone about it, but I'm saying that they seem to be going in the right direction, and I believe it's a good start to this coming season.

Are we going to the SB next year? Of course not, but I feel better knowing that a competant GM, HC, DC, and OC are heading up this team. JMHO.

BossChief
03-18-2010, 01:10 PM
Who is the "they"?

I'd assume you're referring to the previous regime because they acquired the only foundational talent we have on the roster to this point.

well, to be fair I do consider Tyson Jackson, Matt Cassel and Alex Magee as "foundational players"

If that foundation is successful or not, time will tell.

Marcellus
03-18-2010, 01:15 PM
There's no doubt that Croyle is the most talented QB on the roster. But if he can't stay healthy, it means nothing.

I'd love to see a true, open competition between him and Cassel, but it won't happen.

Why waste the time? Croyle wins the job and gets hurt half way through the 1st or second game. Do you need open competition to know how it ends?

HE played an entire game last year and didnt break and so he is way better than Cassel.

Sorry folks, I watched every game he started and he has never done one impressive thing I can remember. He never won a game and he didn't finish half of the ones he started.

Croyl's "talent" is so ridiculously overrated here it is amazing. I understand Cassel sucked ass last year but that doesn't make Croyle awesome.

Marcellus
03-18-2010, 01:16 PM
well, to be fair I do consider Tyson Jackson, Matt Cassel and Alex Magee as "foundational players"

If that foundation is successful or not, time will tell.

Don't forget Succup!

Mr. Laz
03-18-2010, 01:23 PM
well, to be fair I do consider Tyson Jackson, Matt Cassel and Alex Magee as "foundational players"

If that foundation is successful or not, time will tell.
foundation yes ... but will any of them be an impact type foundation player?

so far, none look like it.


btw i expect Cassel to look a ton better this year.

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 01:24 PM
Don't forget Succup!

For real, hell of a pickup!

I'm just choose to walk on the sunny side of the street. :D

PhillyChiefFan
03-18-2010, 01:28 PM
foundation yes ... but will any of them be an impact type foundation player?

so far, none look like it.


btw i expect Cassel to look a ton better this year.

I want to see how they play with a competent DC or OC.

I think Cassel will look better this year too, and he wasn't awful last year. He had some bad games, but the case of dropsies with Bowe and no surehanded receiving TE didn't help him much. Oh, and a pourous OL

BossChief
03-18-2010, 01:28 PM
"I ran into Haley about a month ago at a restaurant, and we chatted for about an hour. He’s relaxed. He’s energized by Weis and Crennel. Haley has learned some tough lessons."

Haley: yeah, Scott doesnt like what happened with the Waters situation last year

JW: yeah, gotta sell papers.

Haley: you have bridges to mend with him, he doesnt want you anywhere around his football team...Im sure you understand that with how limited your access was last year.

JW: what can I do to mend this bridge?

Haley: write an article backing our decisions so far this offseason, that would be a good start.

JW: I dont like it, but Ill play ball. Does this get me back to unrestricted access?

Haley: its a good start.

BossChief
03-18-2010, 01:31 PM
foundation yes ... but will any of them be an impact type foundation player?

so far, none look like it.


btw i expect Cassel to look a ton better this year.

I expect all three of those guys to make a big improvement next year, but I dont see Cassel making as big of an improvement as the other two.

Mr. Laz
03-18-2010, 01:45 PM
I expect all three of those guys to make a big improvement next year, but I dont see Cassel making as big of an improvement as the other two.
you better hope you're wrong because Cassel is the the highest impact position.

Magee could hardly even get on the field last year

"Bob" Dobbs
03-18-2010, 01:56 PM
Has there been a Whitlock article not mentioning encounters with Chiefs leadership in restaurants? To be fair, seeing that 99% of JW's time is spent IN restaurants, where ELSE is he gonna run into them? But I like what he's saying.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2010, 01:57 PM
you better hope you're wrong because Cassel is the the highest impact position.

Magee could hardly even get on the field last year

It will be near impossible for Cassel to play as poorly as he did last year, unless the OL gets worse.

"Bob" Dobbs
03-18-2010, 02:04 PM
The part about him saying the Jets showed class with the ad in the KC Star is bs. That was damage control on the part of the Jets. There are some unhappy players on the Jets because of Jones leaving.How many Jets do you suppose read ANY newspaper; especially the KC Star? It WAS a class move.

googlegoogle
03-18-2010, 02:05 PM
Whitlocks offseason moves are impressive.

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FAX
03-18-2010, 02:12 PM
They're doing good. They're doing bad. They're doing good. They're doing bad. They're doing good.

There. I've mapped out Whittles' next series of article hooks for him in advance.

FAX

DeezNutz
03-18-2010, 02:12 PM
I disagree, Chambers was signed under this regime though he is 31 he will was a solid receiver last year.

Thomas Jones was the #3 back in the league last year, and we signed him...cheaply.

They (Pioli/Haley is who I was referring to), also filled the coordinator positions with the best available coaches in Crennel and Weis.

Signing Lilja and Weiggman addresses a big problem on the OL. Last year's draft sucked, yes, I was just as pissed as anyone about it, but I'm saying that they seem to be going in the right direction, and I believe it's a good start to this coming season.

Are we going to the SB next year? Of course not, but I feel better knowing that a competant GM, HC, DC, and OC are heading up this team. JMHO.

I agree about the coordinators, Weis in particular.

But you mentioned that Pioli and co. had established a base. Well, a solid coaching staff is one way to approach this, and I agree that this should be MUCH better.

But there hasn't been a single player acquisition that would fit under the base/foundational category.

Halfcan
03-18-2010, 02:35 PM
nice one J wit!!

chefsos
03-18-2010, 04:19 PM
TO THE...Hindenburg Mini-Me?


EDIT: Damnit. I should pay attention to time stamps.

milkman
03-19-2010, 08:49 PM
I want to see how they play with a competent DC or OC.

I think Cassel will look better this year too, and he wasn't awful last year. He had some bad games, but the case of dropsies with Bowe and no surehanded receiving TE didn't help him much. Oh, and a pourous OL

If Cassel didn't play awful in your view, I sure would like to know what your definition of awful is.

Fairplay
03-19-2010, 09:05 PM
If Cassel didn't play awful in your view, I sure would like to know what your definition of awful is.


He was getting rushed fast and often.

Anyone who know anything about the offensive line this year knew how porous they are. If you have confidence in the line, the QB will hang on a few seconds and heave that throw to the right person. We need the offensive line changed finally. And no half-ass either.

ChiefsCountry
03-19-2010, 09:07 PM
The signings the Chiefs made are good signings if we have legit young talent behind them on the roster. Thomas Jones with Charles, is a good one. Lilja and Weigmann, while they aren't horrible, would be a whole lot better if we had legit young players behind them.

scott free
03-19-2010, 09:13 PM
Croyl's "talent" is so ridiculously overrated here it is amazing.

Croyle is capable of throwing not only accurate passes, but tight spiraled and accurate passes while being thrown to the ground... his arm is top flight. So even from a purely physical standpoint, he's a better prospect than Cassel.

As far as leadership & presence, i'll say that the last time i watched him at the helm as the pre-season installed Leader... he was 9/10 against the reigning badass champ Pats.

I'm not saying he's a LOCK for greatness, i'm saying time is still on Croyles side... if, he learns to avoid injury. With his skills & character he could be late bloomer Rich Gannon kind of guy.

As it stands... Best backup QB in the league.

milkman
03-19-2010, 09:47 PM
He was getting rushed fast and often.

Anyone who know anything about the offensive line this year knew how porous they are. If you have confidence in the line, the QB will hang on a few seconds and heave that throw to the right person. We need the offensive line changed finally. And no half-ass either.

I have to find a way to just save this so that I can copy and paste, instead of always having to type the same damn thing over and over.

Yes, the OLine was a ****ing sieve.
Not one person will argue that.

However, Cassel's lack of pocket awareness, his early exists from the pocket, and his inability to go through his progressions and propensity to hold the ball too long all contributed to making the O-Line look worse that it was, even as bad as it was.

This wasn't just an issue with the Chiefs O-Line, it reared it's ugly head in New England, as well, as he was sacked almost 25% more in his season of playing there as Tom Brady was sacked in the season before and after combined.

And it won't make one bit of difference how much the O-Line improves, Matt Cassel is still going to have one of the weakest arms in the league, and is still going to make errant throws beyond 15 yards.

His arm strength and lack of accuracy are not O-Line related problems.

DaneMcCloud
03-19-2010, 10:45 PM
I have to find a way to just save this so that I can copy and paste, instead of always having to type the same damn thing over and over.

Yes, the OLine was a ****ing sieve.
Not one person will argue that.

However, Cassel's lack of pocket awareness, his early exists from the pocket, and his inability to go through his progressions and propensity to hold the ball too long all contributed to making the O-Line look worse that it was, even as bad as it was.

This wasn't just an issue with the Chiefs O-Line, it reared it's ugly head in New England, as well, as he was sacked almost 25% more in his season of playing there as Tom Brady was sacked in the season before and after combined.

And it won't make one bit of difference how much the O-Line improves, Matt Cassel is still going to have one of the weakest arms in the league, and is still going to make errant throws beyond 15 yards.

His arm strength and lack of accuracy are not O-Line related problems.

If you subscribe to the thread, you'll be able to reference it in the future.

Oh, and no offense, but Cassel was sacked more than 2 times that of Brady.

Brady in 2007: 1.3 sacks per game.

Cassel in 2008: 2.9 sacks per game.

Brady in 2009: 1.0 sacks per game.

Cassel in 2009: 2.8 sacks per game.

-King-
03-19-2010, 10:52 PM
I have to find a way to just save this so that I can copy and paste, instead of always having to type the same damn thing over and over.

Yes, the OLine was a ****ing sieve.
Not one person will argue that.

However, Cassel's lack of pocket awareness, his early exists from the pocket, and his inability to go through his progressions and propensity to hold the ball too long all contributed to making the O-Line look worse that it was, even as bad as it was.

This wasn't just an issue with the Chiefs O-Line, it reared it's ugly head in New England, as well, as he was sacked almost 25% more in his season of playing there as Tom Brady was sacked in the season before and after combined.

And it won't make one bit of difference how much the O-Line improves, Matt Cassel is still going to have one of the weakest arms in the league, and is still going to make errant throws beyond 15 yards.

His arm strength and lack of accuracy are not O-Line related problems.

I don't think Cassel has a "weak" arm. Just that he can't control it. He overthrew/underthrew many receivers last year. If the ball is supposed to go 40 yards, he will either throw it 35 yards or 45 yards.

BIG K
03-19-2010, 11:18 PM
And it won't make one bit of difference how much the O-Line improves, Matt Cassel is still going to have one of the weakest arms in the league, and is still going to make errant throws beyond 15 yards.

His arm strength and lack of accuracy are not O-Line related problems.

I cannot argue with your assesment of Cassel thus far however, ( I could be wrong) but it seemed for the most part of the year, as soon as the ball was snapped, he had defenders in his face. Even the great Manning made errant throws when he had instant pressure. The line however, seemed to get much better in the last four or five games and Cassel still had problems. I was wondering if the guy became gun shy after taking so many hits and sacks.

I honestly can't make a valid descision on the guy yet.... Hopefully, we should know more at the end of training camp with the new adjusted line.

FAX
03-19-2010, 11:32 PM
Hmmm. Cassel's problems seemed to include ...

1) Tendency to hold on to the ball too long.
2) Inaccuracy. Especially apparent on deep routes.
3) No "zip" on passes.

Either he sucks and Weis has a serious problem on his hands from the gitgo or ... Haley's right ... Cassel's a guy who wants to make the play every time (accounting for holding onto the ball and taking the sacks) and these issues are also caused (at least, in part) by receiver problems; unfamiliarity, poor timing on routes, bad cuts, etc. and o-line failures which also play a role ... you can't step up into a pocket that doesn't exist and a pass rush will definitely screw with your timing (and, often, your accuracy).

It's just hard for me to evaluate Cassel. I wish I'd seen more of his play when he was with the Pats. I'm confident, though, that Pioli and Haley will get pretty damn tired of watching the ball hit the ground after they've improved the line and the receiver corp.

One way or the other ... either Cassel improves dramatically this year (with a better surrounding cast) or Weis will be starting another quarterback. Personally, I'm hopeful that Weis gives Croyle an honest chance to win the job. At a minimum, that will push Cassel to improve.

FAX

BIG K
03-19-2010, 11:44 PM
Hmmm. Cassel's problems seemed to include ...

1) Tendency to hold on to the ball too long.
2) Inaccuracy. Especially apparent on deep routes.
3) No "zip" on passes.

Either he sucks and Weis has a serious problem on his hands from the gitgo or ... Haley's right ... Cassel's a guy who wants to make the play every time (accounting for holding onto the ball and taking the sacks) and these issues are also caused (at least, in part) by receiver problems; unfamiliarity, poor timing on routes, bad cuts, etc. and o-line failures which also play a role ... you can't step up into a pocket that doesn't exist and a pass rush will definitely screw with your timing (and, often, your accuracy).

It's just hard for me to evaluate Cassel. I wish I'd seen more of his play when he was with the Pats. I'm confident, though, that Pioli and Haley will get pretty damn tired of watching the ball hit the ground after they've improved the line and the receiver corp.

One way or the other ... either Cassel improves dramatically this year (with a better surrounding cast) or Weis will be starting another quarterback. Personally, I'm hopeful that Weis gives Croyle an honest chance to win the job. At a minimum, that will push Cassel to improve.

FAX

That was my point, though not as well stated as you put it! I can only base my evaluation on what I saw this year. Rotating receivers, rotating linemen, I just can't give the guy a fair evaluation. Lucky for me and all the other Chiefs fans, they hired a guy who CAN make a fair evaluation of his talent.

chiefs1111
03-19-2010, 11:57 PM
I have to find a way to just save this so that I can copy and paste, instead of always having to type the same damn thing over and over.

Yes, the OLine was a ****ing sieve.
Not one person will argue that.

However, Cassel's lack of pocket awareness, his early exists from the pocket, and his inability to go through his progressions and propensity to hold the ball too long all contributed to making the O-Line look worse that it was, even as bad as it was.

This wasn't just an issue with the Chiefs O-Line, it reared it's ugly head in New England, as well, as he was sacked almost 25% more in his season of playing there as Tom Brady was sacked in the season before and after combined.

And it won't make one bit of difference how much the O-Line improves, Matt Cassel is still going to have one of the weakest arms in the league, and is still going to make errant throws beyond 15 yards.

His arm strength and lack of accuracy are not O-Line related problems.

You can say it till your blue in the face,and some people still won't get it.

ChiefsCountry
03-19-2010, 11:57 PM
That was my point, though not as well stated as you put it! I can only base my evaluation on what I saw this year. Rotating receivers, rotating linemen, I just can't give the guy a fair evaluation. Lucky for me and all the other Chiefs fans, they hired a guy who CAN make a fair evaluation of his talent.

He sucked ass in New England with great talent around him. Thats a pretty good evaluation in my book. Cassel is just a shitty pussy no talent QB.

Tribal Warfare
03-19-2010, 11:59 PM
He sucked ass in New England with great talent around him. Thats a pretty good evaluation in my book. Cassel is just a shitty pussy no talent QB.

Which is why Weis is lobbying for Clausen.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-20-2010, 12:38 AM
I don't think Cassel has a "weak" arm. Just that he can't control it. He overthrew/underthrew many receivers last year. If the ball is supposed to go 40 yards, he will either throw it 35 yards or 45 yards.

That's exactly what someone with a weak arm does. Throw a football balls out and see how accurate you are hitting a target.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-20-2010, 12:39 AM
Croyle is never getting an honest chance to win the job, and if anyone thinks that, they should have a head CT.

BIG K
03-20-2010, 01:08 AM
He sucked ass in New England with great talent around him. Thats a pretty good evaluation in my book. Cassel is just a shitty pussy no talent QB.


Never said he was a pro bowl qb. I stated that what I witnessed last year, it was hard to tell if it was him or the line that caused his ineffectiveness. I did not watch all of his game tape while he was with the Pats like you did and cannot make that evaluation.

With all due respect to everyone who hates Cass, seems to me there were some problems with the line. Whether or not that reflects on his ability to throw an accurate ball while being pummeled I guess is not relevent. For whatever reason though, the Chiefs rotated lineman throughout the season in an attempt to fix the protection problem.

Cassel may indeed suck ass, but the Chiefs attempt to upgrade the line this offseason tells me that the problems the offense suffered were not entirely Cassels fault.

FAX
03-20-2010, 02:21 AM
For me, Mr. BIG K, the bottom line is that it's pretty clear Cassel isn't "all that". It's just difficult to tell what he is ... or not. I don't see how that is knowable unless or until some of the other wrinkles including the receiving corp, the offensive line, the coordinator, etc. are ironed out. He sure isn't going to carry an offense that has limited talent on his back - we know that much.

For example, you don't have to possess a rocket arm to be successful in the league. However, the offensive scheme (read coordinator) has to design around that problem.

We'll see, I guess.

FAX

LOCOChief
03-20-2010, 04:33 AM
Croyle is capable of throwing not only accurate passes, but tight spiraled and accurate passes while being thrown to the ground... his arm is top flight. So even from a purely physical standpoint, he's a better prospect than Cassel.

As far as leadership & presence, i'll say that the last time i watched him at the helm as the pre-season installed Leader... he was 9/10 against the reigning badass champ Pats.

I'm not saying he's a LOCK for greatness, i'm saying time is still on Croyles side... if, he learns to avoid injury. With his skills & character he could be late bloomer Rich Gannon kind of guy.

As it stands... Best backup QB in the league.

No doubt about it, he's not only the best backup in the league, but IMO the best QB in the AFCW by far. He hasn't got a fair shake behind a decent line.

Short Leash Hootie
03-20-2010, 05:38 AM
No doubt about it, he's not only the best backup in the league, but IMO the best QB in the AFCW by far. He hasn't got a fair shake behind a decent line.

Wait...

People actually think Croyle is the best backup QB in the NFL?

What?

Wow...

That's a super delusional thought...

milkman
03-20-2010, 06:56 AM
Never said he was a pro bowl qb. I stated that what I witnessed last year, it was hard to tell if it was him or the line that caused his ineffectiveness. I did not watch all of his game tape while he was with the Pats like you did and cannot make that evaluation.

With all due respect to everyone who hates Cass, seems to me there were some problems with the line. Whether or not that reflects on his ability to throw an accurate ball while being pummeled I guess is not relevent. For whatever reason though, the Chiefs rotated lineman throughout the season in an attempt to fix the protection problem.

Cassel may indeed suck ass, but the Chiefs attempt to upgrade the line this offseason tells me that the problems the offense suffered were not entirely Cassels fault.

Here's the thing Kieth.

In 2007, Tom Brady was sacked 21 times.
In 2009, Brady was sacked 16 times.

Matt Cassel in 2008 was sacked 47 times.

When Cassel took the reins after Brady's injury, he was pretty ineffective.
As the season progressed, he looked much like the QB we saw last year on the Chiefs.

Sometime around the 9th-10th game, the Pats became a spread heavy offense, and Cassel began to take fewer sacks and became far more effective.

The reason that college spread QBs have such a difficult time transitioning to the NFL is the footwork and the reads.

Cassel has had 5 years of practice on the NFL level, not to mention 4 years in Pete Carroll's pro style offense at USC, and he still hasn't shown he gets it.

Pushead2
03-20-2010, 07:06 AM
Wait...

People actually think Croyle is the best backup QB in the NFL?

What?

Wow...

That's a super delusional thought...

I agree, The guy hasn't won 1 game.

tmax63
03-20-2010, 07:33 AM
I will make myself an easy target so flame away. Cassel has started about 2 seasons total for 2 different teams. In season 1 he held the ball too long trying to make plays but with a supporting cast was able to get to the playoffs. In season 2 he had no supporting cast. He had to learn 2 different schemes before the season began. If the ball wasn't thrown to the initial read it was too late because he was running for his life. The one thing last season did was teach him to speed up his release. I don't care how good an armchair coach you are, you cannot fairly evaluate what the guy can do in those circumstances. Practice does not equal gametime. I am not a big Cassel fan but I cannot fairly condemn him as a failure yet. Some of the pieces have been put into place. He now has an OC that is proven and time to learn his system before the season. After playing russian roulette with the o-line and receivers last year he now has 2 serviceable receivers and a better-than-last-year's line at least on paper. They still have the draft to improve the D and continue to fill holes. He has a running game that will help him some. This is the year that I think Cassel needs to show he can either do it or not. The HC and GM have shown through the offensive line and receivers that if you don't perform you shouldn't get comfortable and I'm quite sure Cassel will fall under the same scrutiny once when/if they get to the point where they feel that he is the problem.

Marcellus
03-20-2010, 07:35 AM
He sucked ass in New England with great talent around him. Thats a pretty good evaluation in my book. Cassel is just a shitty pussy no talent QB.

He sucked ass to the tune of 3,700 yards a 63% completion %, 21 TD and 11 INT his first time as a starter. I would take that type of suckage year in and year out. That's pretty much Elways career averages.(not saying he is Elway so don't go there)

And don't start with the BS about YAC etc...your statement was he sucked with the talent around him. He put up good numbers with the talent around him. Not great but good. Not shitty.

He sucked last year, no doubt and he has to play better but I cant stand when people make dumbass comments like he sucked in NE. He had accuracy issues on deep passes and held the ball too long the beginning of the season. That doesn't mean he sucked ass. They won 10 games with him as QB.

Marcellus
03-20-2010, 07:42 AM
Here's the thing Kieth.

In 2007, Tom Brady was sacked 21 times.
In 2009, Brady was sacked 16 times.

Matt Cassel in 2008 was sacked 47 times.

When Cassel took the reins after Brady's injury, he was pretty ineffective.
As the season progressed, he looked much like the QB we saw last year on the Chiefs.

Sometime around the 9th-10th game, the Pats became a spread heavy offense, and Cassel began to take fewer sacks and became far more effective.

The reason that college spread QBs have such a difficult time transitioning to the NFL is the footwork and the reads.

Cassel has had 5 years of practice on the NFL level, not to mention 4 years in Pete Carroll's pro style offense at USC, and he still hasn't shown he gets it.

He isn't Tom Brady? No kidding? You need to go back and look at his splits. You are simply not basing your comments on facts. He had the same QB rating and threw exactly 1 more TD from the shotgun than he did from under center. His numbers are basically identical from under center and the shotgun so that ruins your spread offense in week 8 or 9 is where he started playing better theory.

It's all right here. The biggest concern to me was his pass % on passes thrown more than 20 yards down field was 33%.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8644&sYear=2008

milkman
03-20-2010, 08:16 AM
He isn't Tom Brady? No kidding? You need to go back and look at his splits. You are simply not basing your comments on facts. He had the same QB rating and threw exactly 1 more TD from the shotgun than he did from under center. His numbers are basically identical from under center and the shotgun so that ruins your spread offense in week 8 or 9 is where he started playing better theory.

It's all right here. The biggest concern to me was his pass % on passes thrown more than 20 yards down field was 33%.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8644&sYear=2008

And I've told your dumb ass before that I don't give a rat's ass about stats.

I ****ing watched the games and saw the difference in his play, and I know you don't ****ing care about that.

But don't keep giving the same goddamn stats that you kept giving me the last time we talked about this.

I know what I saw, so shove those stats right up your ass.

milkman
03-20-2010, 08:22 AM
Matt Shaub isn't Tom Brady either, but behind the same O-Line that Carr was sacked 49, 68, and 41 times in the three years prvious to Shaub, Shaub was only sacked 16 times.

Bad QBs that can't make reads and hold onto the ball too long.

Rausch
03-20-2010, 08:22 AM
Don't forget Succup!

And Colquitt!:cuss:



I wouldn't say the moves so far are impressive but they are definitely smart and more in the direction I would have expected in year 1...

Marcellus
03-20-2010, 08:40 AM
And I've told your dumb ass before that I don't give a rat's ass about stats.

I ****ing watched the games and saw the difference in his play, and I know you don't ****ing care about that.

But don't keep giving the same goddamn stats that you kept giving me the last time we talked about this.

I know what I saw, so shove those stats right up your ass.

I know we have had this argument already and you refuse to look at the numbers. Say what you want. Your as stubborn as a pig and nothing like facts will change your mind.

As soon as you can explain how the spread helped him yet his numbers were no better in the shotgun I will agree with you.

Amazing nerve calling me a dumbass when facts point to one thing and what you say you saw is all you have to back up your opinion.

You cant explain away the facts by dismissing them with what you say you saw.


I know stats aren't the end all be all but I know from doing statistical analysis in my job that sometime what you think you see (perception) and what is actually truly happening (reality) aren't the same.

But feel free to keep thinking what you want.

This is a classic case of perception is reality. If something is perceived to be a certain way to people, that is their reality regardless of the truth.

And by the way, I think he sucked ass last year. I am not some Cassel homer. I hope we draft Claussen.

milkman
03-20-2010, 08:51 AM
I know we have had this argument already and you refuse to look at the numbers. Say what you want. Your as stubborn as a pig and nothing like facts will change your mind.

As soon as you can explain how the spread helped him yet his numbers were no better in the shotgun I will agree with you.

Amazing nerve calling me a dumbass when facts point to one thing and what you say you saw is all you have to back up your opinion.

You cant explain away the facts by dismissing them with what you say you saw.


I know stats aren't the end all be all but I know from doing statistical analysis in my job that sometime what you think you see (perception) and what is actually truly happening (reality) aren't the same.

But feel free to keep thinking what you want.

This is a classic case of perception is reality. If something is perceived to be a certain way to people, that is their reality regardless of the truth.

And by the way, I think he sucked ass last year. I am not some Cassel homer. I hope we draft Claussen.

Stats are not facts.

It's data.

Vinnie Testaverde put up similar stats to John Elway in their careers, so I suppose you are going to tell me that when I watched Elway and saw one of the best QBs ever, and I watched Testaverde and saw an average QB, that stats tell me I don't know what I saw?

Marcellus
03-20-2010, 08:57 AM
Stats are not facts.

It's data.

Vinnie Testaverde put up similar stats to John Elway in their careers, so I suppose you are going to tell me that when I watched Elway and saw one of the best QBs ever, and I watched Testaverde and saw an average QB, that stats tell me I don't know what I saw?

Look, I understand your point about stats but there is 1 stat that does not support your theory of the spread being the only reason Cassel was successful.

His numbers in the shotgun were no better than under center. I do not see any way that fits into your theory.

Some stats are very relevant to certain arguments.

We can agree to disagree on this. In fact we already have once I think.

milkman
03-20-2010, 09:07 AM
Look, I understand your point about stats but there is 1 stat that does not support your theory of the spread being the only reason Cassel was successful.

His numbers in the shotgun were no better than under center. I do not see any way that fits into your theory.

Some stats are very relevant to certain arguments.

We can agree to disagree on this. In fact we already have once I think.

I can only tell you what I saw.
You can take me at my word, (and I'm not the only one that saw it) or not.

One thing that might explain it is that as the season progressed, randy Moss lost interest and his play showed it, as he didn't bail Cassel out later in the season as he did earlier, often, even though Cassel played with more confidence in the spread.

Beyond that, I can't explain it, I can only tell you what I saw.

Cassel was much better QB in the spread than he was in the pro set.

Coogs
03-20-2010, 09:29 AM
Hmmm. Cassel's problems seemed to include ...

1) Tendency to hold on to the ball too long.
2) Inaccuracy. Especially apparent on deep routes.
3) No "zip" on passes.

Either he sucks and Weis has a serious problem on his hands from the gitgo or ... Haley's right ... Cassel's a guy who wants to make the play every time (accounting for holding onto the ball and taking the sacks) and these issues are also caused (at least, in part) by receiver problems; unfamiliarity, poor timing on routes, bad cuts, etc. and o-line failures which also play a role ... you can't step up into a pocket that doesn't exist and a pass rush will definitely screw with your timing (and, often, your accuracy).

It's just hard for me to evaluate Cassel. I wish I'd seen more of his play when he was with the Pats. I'm confident, though, that Pioli and Haley will get pretty damn tired of watching the ball hit the ground after they've improved the line and the receiver corp.

One way or the other ... either Cassel improves dramatically this year (with a better surrounding cast) or Weis will be starting another quarterback. Personally, I'm hopeful that Weis gives Croyle an honest chance to win the job. At a minimum, that will push Cassel to improve.

FAX

Remember the Press Conference a little while back where Weis was asked what he like about Cassel, and Weis's response went something like this...

Well, he is on our team, that is what I like about him.

Count Zarth
03-20-2010, 09:43 AM
Remember the Press Conference a little while back where Weis was asked what he like about Cassel, and Weis's response went something like this...

Well, he is on our team, that is what I like about him.

Weis has never commented on Cassel.

milkman
03-20-2010, 09:45 AM
Weis has never commented on Cassel.

I believe you're wrong.

I'm not going to waste time looking for it, but the comment Coogs talks about was posted a couple of weeks after Weiss was hired.

Marcellus
03-20-2010, 09:49 AM
I believe you're wrong.

I'm not going to waste time looking for it, but the comment Coogs talks about was posted a couple of weeks after Weiss was hired.

Yea he stated he was glad he was on the team or something. I am guessing he hadn't had time to go through game tape at the time and he has a hard on for Claussen.

Count Zarth
03-20-2010, 09:49 AM
I believe you're wrong.

I'm not going to waste time looking for it, but the comment Coogs talks about was posted a couple of weeks after Weiss was hired.

I went and reviewed the press conference and there was no mention of Cassel.

Marcellus
03-20-2010, 09:49 AM
I went and reviewed the press conference and there was no mention of Cassel.

Hmmm. Interesting. Maybe another CP urban myth.

Count Zarth
03-20-2010, 09:50 AM
Hmmm. Interesting. Maybe another CP urban myth.

I think this sprung up from the rumor that Weis isn't a big fan of Cassel.

Coogs
03-20-2010, 09:51 AM
I went and reviewed the press conference and there was no mention of Cassel.

It was there. There was pretty much a whole thread about it at the time.

Coogs
03-20-2010, 09:57 AM
GoChiefs...

go to this link...

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article-1/Haley-Chiefs-Assistant-Coaching-Announcement/ee5de429-4129-443d-a01f-f4292c4fae1d

and scroll about halfway down. Once there, you will find this...


Q: I know what you said about him when you first got here, but what do you like about QB Matt Cassel?

WEIS: “He’s on our team and we’ve got him, that’s what I like about him. Anyone who is on our team, I like. If they’re on our roster, you’ve got to like them all the same. It doesn’t make a difference whether it’s the starting QB or your sixth wide receiver, you’ve got to find what you can do to make those guys better and right now, that’s our number one goal.”

Count Zarth
03-20-2010, 09:59 AM
There you go. I was looking at Q&As.

JD10367
03-20-2010, 10:28 AM
It's not like Croyle played well in the preseason.

Then again, neither did Cassel in his years in New England.

DaneMcCloud
03-20-2010, 10:40 AM
I went and reviewed the press conference and there was no mention of Cassel.

Then it was removed.

Weis clearly stated when asked "I like him because he's on our team".

JD10367
03-20-2010, 10:47 AM
He sucked ass in New England with great talent around him. Thats a pretty good evaluation in my book. Cassel is just a shitty pussy no talent QB.

What the f**k are you talking about? In 2008, the kid went from benchwarmer to emergency-starter after having not played any meaningful ball since high school. After a few rough games he settled down. He finished with a 63% passer rating, almost 3700 yards, 21 TDs to 11 INTs, and a QB rating of almost 90. How the f**k is that "sucked ass"?

Even last year, he wasn't that horrible. Yeah, he had his issues. In the second half of the season, he seemed to get into some bad habits. Still, he had almost 3000 yards, and he didn't throw more INTs than TDs (although, granted, throwing an equal amount isn't great). His QB rating, while bad, was better than Ryan Fitzpatrick, Brady Quinn, Mark "The Savior" Sanchez, Matt Stafford, and Jake Delhomme. Sanchez and Stafford also had a shittier completion percentage, and fewer yards. So, apparently, Cassel is better than Sanchez or Stafford, no?

(I know people think I carry Cassel's jock, just 'cause I'm a Patriots fan. I don't. I didn't like him before 2008. But I saw that he could actually play, and some people act like he was tripping over his own f**king feet last year for KC and throwing 6 picks a game.)

FAX
03-20-2010, 10:48 AM
Then it was removed.

Weis clearly stated when asked "I like him because he's on our team".

Yep. That was exactly what he said.

It seemed kinda ... vanilla ... at the time.

FAX

FAX
03-20-2010, 10:49 AM
Hmmm. Interesting. Maybe another CP urban myth.

Nope. No myth. He said it. Just that way, too. I heard him.

FAX

DaneMcCloud
03-20-2010, 10:52 AM
http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=6500859&postcount=45

Someone else referenced it as well.

It's NOT an "urban myth".

JASONSAUTO
03-20-2010, 10:52 AM
I can only tell you what I saw.
You can take me at my word, (and I'm not the only one that saw it) or not.

One thing that might explain it is that as the season progressed, randy Moss lost interest and his play showed it, as he didn't bail Cassel out later in the season as he did earlier, often, even though Cassel played with more confidence in the spread.

Beyond that, I can't explain it, I can only tell you what I saw.

Cassel was much better QB in the spread than he was in the pro set.

i have said this about moss many times. i cant believe you didnt get flamed for it
Posted via Mobile Device

Marcellus
03-20-2010, 10:55 AM
i have said this about moss many times. i cant believe you didnt get flamed for it
Posted via Mobile Device

Then who's fault was it? Sounds like Cassel want playing with the full complement of talent.

FAX
03-20-2010, 11:02 AM
What the f**k are you talking about? In 2008, the kid went from benchwarmer to emergency-starter after having not played any meaningful ball since high school. After a few rough games he settled down. He finished with a 63% passer rating, almost 3700 yards, 21 TDs to 11 INTs, and a QB rating of almost 90. How the f**k is that "sucked ass"?

Even last year, he wasn't that horrible. Yeah, he had his issues. In the second half of the season, he seemed to get into some bad habits. Still, he had almost 3000 yards, and he didn't throw more INTs than TDs (although, granted, throwing an equal amount isn't great). His QB rating, while bad, was better than Ryan Fitzpatrick, Brady Quinn, Mark "The Savior" Sanchez, Matt Stafford, and Jake Delhomme. Sanchez and Stafford also had a shittier completion percentage, and fewer yards. So, apparently, Cassel is better than Sanchez or Stafford, no?

(I know people think I carry Cassel's jock, just 'cause I'm a Patriots fan. I don't. I didn't like him before 2008. But I saw that he could actually play, and some people act like he was tripping over his own f**king feet last year for KC and throwing 6 picks a game.)

Chiefs fans are just desperate for a true, franchise quarterback, Mr. JD10367. We need one and we need one, badly. Then, there are some posters on here who probably bitch when their parents give them money because they have to count it.

Cassel wasn't great last year. That's for sure. In fact, he was disappointing in many respects. However, he didn't have a hell of a lot of help, either. We probably set the all-time record in dropped passes and the line was ... well, we know what the line was.

What the Chiefs need is a true leader at that position. Someone who can take the team on his back when the time comes. Personally, I think we're still looking but it's hard to tell because Cassel's performance was affected to such a degree by the surrounding suck ... including the installation of an entirely new offensive scheme between pre- and regular-season.

Personally, I think all you can honestly say about Cassel is that the jury's still out on the guy.

FAX

Coogs
03-20-2010, 11:15 AM
GoChiefs...

go to this link...

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article...f-f4292c4fae1d

and scroll about halfway down. Once there, you will find this...


Quote:
Q: I know what you said about him when you first got here, but what do you like about QB Matt Cassel?

WEIS: “He’s on our team and we’ve got him, that’s what I like about him. Anyone who is on our team, I like. If they’re on our roster, you’ve got to like them all the same. It doesn’t make a difference whether it’s the starting QB or your sixth wide receiver, you’ve got to find what you can do to make those guys better and right now, that’s our number one goal.”


BTW, this is why I believe Clausen will be in the picture on our draft board if he is available at pick #5.

FAX
03-20-2010, 11:20 AM
Ummm ... do stats hurt when you shove them up your ass?

FAX

milkman
03-20-2010, 11:24 AM
Ummm ... do stats hurt when you shove them up your ass?

FAX

Stats are nothing more than shit to try to prove a position, so essentially, you're just pushing shit back up into your ass.

JASONSAUTO
03-20-2010, 11:29 AM
Stats are nothing more than shit to try to prove a position, so essentially, you're just pushing shit back up into your ass.

ooooohhhhh a repacker :)
Posted via Mobile Device

BIG K
03-21-2010, 12:04 AM
Here's the thing Kieth.

In 2007, Tom Brady was sacked 21 times.
In 2009, Brady was sacked 16 times.

Matt Cassel in 2008 was sacked 47 times.

When Cassel took the reins after Brady's injury, he was pretty ineffective.
As the season progressed, he looked much like the QB we saw last year on the Chiefs.

Sometime around the 9th-10th game, the Pats became a spread heavy offense, and Cassel began to take fewer sacks and became far more effective.

The reason that college spread QBs have such a difficult time transitioning to the NFL is the footwork and the reads.

Cassel has had 5 years of practice on the NFL level, not to mention 4 years in Pete Carroll's pro style offense at USC, and he still hasn't shown he gets it.

That is a pretty fair evaluation that I can respect. Like I said before, the first time I watched Cass play was last year, so I had nothing to base my thoughts on other than the poor play of the o-line earlier in the season. That being said, I would have no problem if the Chiefs gave him another shot behind a better line, nor would I have a problem at all if Claus was there to step in if he failed again.......

DaneMcCloud
03-21-2010, 12:31 AM
Ummm ... do stats hurt when you shove them up your ass?

FAX

I can't speak for anyone else in this forum, but generally speaking, everything that's shoved up my ass inflicts massive pain.

BIG K
03-21-2010, 12:44 AM
I can't speak for anyone else in this forum, but generally speaking, everything that's shoved up my ass inflicts massive pain.

I'll take your word on that one! :D

BIG K
03-21-2010, 12:56 AM
Then it was removed.

Weis clearly stated when asked "I like him because he's on our team".

Yeah, I read that too. Not entirely a huge vote of confidence about a player who is supposed to be the heart and soul of team is it? I cannot imagine him saying the same thing if he was the new coordinator for say, Minnesota or New Orleans........

Pasta Giant Meatball
03-21-2010, 07:33 AM
What the f**k are you talking about? In 2008, the kid went from benchwarmer to emergency-starter after having not played any meaningful ball since high school. After a few rough games he settled down. He finished with a 63% passer rating, almost 3700 yards, 21 TDs to 11 INTs, and a QB rating of almost 90. How the f**k is that "sucked ass"?

Even last year, he wasn't that horrible. Yeah, he had his issues. In the second half of the season, he seemed to get into some bad habits. Still, he had almost 3000 yards, and he didn't throw more INTs than TDs (although, granted, throwing an equal amount isn't great). His QB rating, while bad, was better than Ryan Fitzpatrick, Brady Quinn, Mark "The Savior" Sanchez, Matt Stafford, and Jake Delhomme. Sanchez and Stafford also had a shittier completion percentage, and fewer yards. So, apparently, Cassel is better than Sanchez or Stafford, no?

(I know people think I carry Cassel's jock, just 'cause I'm a Patriots fan. I don't. I didn't like him before 2008. But I saw that he could actually play, and some people act like he was tripping over his own f**king feet last year for KC and throwing 6 picks a game.)

I'm not a fan of Cassel, but the comment you quoted about him "sucking ass" in NE is lame as well as pretty ignorant. Like you said he hadn't started in ages and he improved as the season went on. So, I agree with ya there.

The problem is his play in KC. The drops killed him, but as the running game and o-line improved he didn't. In fact his play became worse....much worse and he still has shown no accuracy on deep or even intermediate throws. You CANNOT have a QB starting for you with his accuracy numbers on balls thrown 10 plus yards, especially in today's NFL. Cassel will have another chance next year to prove everyone wrong and I for one hope he does.

PhillyChiefFan
03-22-2010, 08:44 AM
I'm not a fan of Cassel, but the comment you quoted about him "sucking ass" in NE is lame as well as pretty ignorant. Like you said he hadn't started in ages and he improved as the season went on. So, I agree with ya there.

The problem is his play in KC. The drops killed him, but as the running game and o-line improved he didn't. In fact his play became worse....much worse and he still has shown no accuracy on deep or even intermediate throws. You CANNOT have a QB starting for you with his accuracy numbers on balls thrown 10 plus yards, especially in today's NFL. Cassel will have another chance next year to prove everyone wrong and I for one hope he does.

Let's not forget that Haley was trying to wear both the HC hat and OC hat. I think Weis will have more time to work with Cassel this year. He didn't have ample time working with a relatively raw QB, or at least not as much as Cassel probably needs.

I agree with you though, this is his year to prove that he was worth the pricetag.

milkman
03-22-2010, 08:10 PM
Let's not forget that Haley was trying to wear both the HC hat and OC hat. I think Weis will have more time to work with Cassel this year. He didn't have ample time working with a relatively raw QB, or at least not as much as Cassel probably needs.

I agree with you though, this is his year to prove that he was worth the pricetag.

If Weis spends as much time with Cassel as he needs, our offense is screwed.

There aren't that many hours in a day.

FAX
03-22-2010, 08:48 PM
ROFL

We'll need to change DST to Cassel Savings Time and add a couple more hours.

He's a mystery to me. I've mentioned it before, but I really wish I'd watched more Pats games a couple of years ago. It might make me feel better. Then again ...

Still, I remain one of those guys who believes that accuracy can, indeed, be negatively affected by poor line play. It messes with your footwork. I'm not sure that's part of Cassel's problem, but I just cannot bring myself to believe that, behind a trustworthy line and more timing work with the receivers, he would be that inaccurate. Hope springs eternal in a Chiefs homer, I guess.

FAX

Count Zarth
01-22-2011, 11:40 AM
The Chiefs will be effective in short-yardage running situations.


WHITLOCK UBER FAIL