PDA

View Full Version : Obama Alright, someone break down this Healthcare Reform for me


luv
03-21-2010, 11:50 PM
What will this do to a middle class single woman in her thirties making between 30 and 50 thousand dollars per year who already has medical, dental, and vision insurance? How will this affect me?

|Zach|
03-21-2010, 11:50 PM
They will pull the plug on your whole family.

petegz28
03-21-2010, 11:52 PM
What will this do to a middle class single woman making between 30 and fifty thousand dollars per year who already has medical, dental, and vision insurance? How will this affect me?


Your rates will go up across the board regardless. So plan on that at the least. If your employer chooses, you may lose your coverage altogether since the penalty employers would have to pay may be significantly cheaper than provide insurance. Then you will be forced into the Fed Gov house of health care.

Chiefshrink
03-21-2010, 11:53 PM
Just the fact you had to ask for this bill to be broke down is just a bad sign that this is a total horseshit bill. Chicago politics on steroids, that is what is in this bill besides total marxist rule.

|Zach|
03-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Just the fact you had to ask for this bill to be broke down is just a bad sign that this is a total horseshit bill. Chicago politics on steroids, that is what is in this bill besides total marxist rule.

Because healthcare isn't complicated.

|Zach|
03-21-2010, 11:56 PM
Your rates will go up across the board regardless. So plan on that at the least. If your employer chooses, you may lose your coverage altogether since the penalty employers would have to pay may be significantly cheaper than provide insurance. Then you will be forced into the Fed Gov house of health care.

At what point should she come back to tell us if any of your doom predictions happened.

Seriously...lets set a date.

theultimatekcchiefsfan
03-21-2010, 11:56 PM
Great Breakdown here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914020220100319

House Democrats are confident they can overcome solid Republican opposition and pass the bill. Leaders are using a two-step process where the House approves Senate-passed legislation and then votes for a separate package of changes to satisfy concerns of House Democrats. The Senate is expected to approve those changes as well and President Barack Obama plans to sign the bill into law.

Here is what to expect if the bill becomes law:

WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT

*Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.

*Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

*Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.

*Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.

*A temporary reinsurance program is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.

*Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.

*A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

*A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011

*Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.

*Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.

*A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.

*Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.

*Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 tax forms.

*An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

*Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organizations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.

*An incentive program is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.

*The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programs, begin tracking hospital readmission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013

*A national pilot program is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.

*The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemized tax returns is raised to 10 percent from 7.5 percent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 percent for the elderly through 2016.

*The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 percent from 1.45 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income for that income group.

*A 2.9 percent excise tax in imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

*Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.

*Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015

*Medicare creates a physician payment program aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2018

*An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions. (Reporting by Donna Smith; Editing by David Alexander and Eric Beech)

blaise
03-21-2010, 11:56 PM
It won't affect you at all. Rich people will be paying for everything from now on.

orange
03-21-2010, 11:57 PM
RT @KenTremendous: America has been officially Socialist for like 25 minutes. No major changes so far, except the Soviet tank outside my window

about 1 hours ago via web
JacksonZackson

blaise
03-21-2010, 11:59 PM
RT @KenTremendous: America has been officially Socialist for like 25 minutes. No major changes so far, except the Soviet tank outside my window

about 1 hours ago via web
JacksonZackson

Someone thought that was funny enough to retweet?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:02 AM
At what point should she come back to tell us if any of your doom predictions happened.

Seriously...lets set a date.

Pay attention, Zachy, you may learn something..

*Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.


Now, at $2k for 50 employees I can pay $100k in fines. Which is probably much cheaper than paying for the insurance and the HR people(s) salary(s). Thus my employees lose their current coverage and off they go to the Fed Gov's house of health care.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 12:03 AM
So whats your date for luv to come back and report to us? I am sure she would be kind enough to do that. How long?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:05 AM
So whats your date for luv to come back and report to us? I am sure she would be kind enough to do that. How long?

Pick one, let's see if you even read the thing.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 12:06 AM
Pick one, let's see if you even read the thing.

6 months? We can drop her a line at 6 months to see if any of that has happened? Is that too short for you?

penchief
03-22-2010, 12:07 AM
Just the fact you had to ask for this bill to be broke down is just a bad sign that this is a total horseshit bill. Chicago politics on steroids, that is what is in this bill besides total marxist rule.

Chicago politics, Marxist, blah blah blah. Step away from the kool aid.

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:08 AM
What will this do to a middle class single woman in her thirties making between 30 and 50 thousand dollars per year who already has medical, dental, and vision insurance? How will this affect me?


Your insurance rates will go up (as a direct result of insurance companies having to take pre-existing conditions - that money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere will be increased premiums), and it will be harder for you to get better coverage than you have now because the best plans will be priced and taxed out of middle-class reach.

luv
03-22-2010, 12:09 AM
6 months? We can drop her a line at 6 months to see if any of that has happened? Is that too short for you?

Whatever you guys want, I'm up for reporting. Our annual renewal date is October 1. Granted I'm still employed at that point (looong story), I don't mind letting you guys know what happens.

Direckshun
03-22-2010, 12:09 AM
I'd go to post #7, luv, and see if any of that applies to you.

The good news for folks like yourself who have healthcare insurance isn't what will happen to you, but what won't.

Jenson71
03-22-2010, 12:09 AM
Pay attention, Zachy, you may learn something..




Now, at $2k for 50 employees I can pay $100k in fines. Which is probably much cheaper than paying for the insurance and the HR people(s) salary(s). Thus my employees lose their current coverage and off they go to the Fed Gov's house of health care.

I wonder how many businesses have over 50 employees but can't pay for a health insurance benefit?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:10 AM
6 months? We can drop her a line at 6 months to see if any of that has happened? Is that too short for you?

K, you failed your reading test. The mandate for Employer coverage doesn't kick in until 2014. So it could be anytime between now and then.

chiefforlife
03-22-2010, 12:10 AM
Pay attention, Zachy, you may learn something..




Now, at $2k for 50 employees I can pay $100k in fines. Which is probably much cheaper than paying for the insurance and the HR people(s) salary(s). Thus my employees lose their current coverage and off they go to the Fed Gov's house of health care.

You quoted the rule right before you messed up the math, check your post.

The first 30 employees are exempt to the fine. Therefor your fine would be 20 employees at 2K, 40K fine. Just sayin':D

Chiefshrink
03-22-2010, 12:11 AM
Pay attention, Zachy, you may learn something..




Now, at $2k for 50 employees I can pay $100k in fines. Which is probably much cheaper than paying for the insurance and the HR people(s) salary(s). Thus my employees lose their current coverage and off they go to the Fed Gov's house of health care.

Really you think 'young wet behind the ears Zach' will learn something? :rolleyes:

orange
03-22-2010, 12:11 AM
Someone thought that was funny enough to retweet?

You just can't quit me, can you? :p :p


I never thought you actually posting thoughts of your own would be less interesting than you just pasting Huffingtonpost articles. I guess I was wrong.

There's an IGNORE button. I strongly suggest you use it.

Because if you comment on any of my posts in the future, expect me to throw this back in your face. :p

:doh!:

Direckshun
03-22-2010, 12:11 AM
At what point should she come back to tell us if any of your doom predictions happened.

Seriously...lets set a date.

Brilliant!

Luv, set your watch for 6 months, and report back to us. I'll make sure it grabs Pete's attention, and if he says "weeeeeeell your rate hikes and your job dropping your coverage just haven't happened YET!" we'll set a new date and so on.

Let's hold Pete's feet to the fire on this.

What do you say, Pete?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:12 AM
I wonder how many businesses have over 50 employees but can't pay for a health insurance benefit?

It isn't about can't Mr. Jenson. It is about what is cheaper. If I can dump my health insurance costs and the salaries of non-revenue making positions, such as HR people, it might benefit me cost wise in the long run to pay the fine instead.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 12:12 AM
K, you failed your reading test. The mandate for Employer coverage doesn't kick in until 2014. So it could be anytime between now and then.

So when will her rates go up. According to the doomsayer Pete.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:13 AM
Brilliant!

Luv, set your watch for 6 months, and report back to us. I'll make sure it grabs Pete's attention, and if he says "weeeeeeell your rate hikes and your job dropping your coverage just haven't happened YET!" we'll set a new date and so on.

Let's hold Pete's feet to the fire on this.

What do you say, Pete?

I'd say you failed reading as well???

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:13 AM
So when will her rates go up. According to the doomsayer Pete.

rates will go up every year. I think the more appropriate bet would be when will her rates go down?? As Obama promised.

luv
03-22-2010, 12:13 AM
Your insurance rates will go up (as a direct result of insurance companies having to take pre-existing conditions - that money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere will be increased premiums), and it will be harder for you to get better coverage than you have now because the best plans will be priced and taxed out of middle-class reach.

From reading the list posted earlier, it definitely sounds like that's the case. I basically use my medical insurance once per year for wellness checks and the fun yearly exams and birth control prescription. Dental, once every six months for cleaning (although it did help out tremendously when I got some teeth pulled this month). Vision, once a year. I have a flex spending account that I take out each year too. I guess I need to figure out exactly how much all of that comes to in a year to determine if what I'm paying between premiums and deductibles is worth it.

Direckshun
03-22-2010, 12:13 AM
I'd say you failed reading as well???

When are her rates going up?

We'll have her report back every six months. No sweat. Just let us know. ;)

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Brilliant!

Luv, set your watch for 6 months, and report back to us. I'll make sure it grabs Pete's attention, and if he says "weeeeeeell your rate hikes and your job dropping your coverage just haven't happened YET!" we'll set a new date and so on.

Let's hold Pete's feet to the fire on this.

What do you say, Pete?

You shouldn't be holding anyone's feet to the fire Mr. Duck and Run.

Iowanian
03-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Someone waiving an Iranian flag obviously always has the best interest of Americans at heart.


Think of this day when you find yourself annoyed at how long you're waiting in line for your turn at dial-a-doc.


I have no problem predicting that rate increases will spike before the mandate in a pre-emptive strike.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:14 AM
You quoted the rule right before you messed up the math, check your post.

The first 30 employees are exempt to the fine. Therefor your fine would be 20 employees at 2K, 40K fine. Just sayin':D

Ok, so even more reason to dump coverage and pay the fine. Thanks for the correction.

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:15 AM
From reading the list posted earlier, it definitely sounds like that's the case. I basically use my medical insurance once per year for wellness checks and the fun yearly exams and birth control prescription. Dental, once every six months for cleaning (although it did help out tremendously when I got some teeth pulled this month). Vision, once a year. I have a flex spending account that I take out each year too. I guess I need to figure out exactly how much all of that comes to in a year to determine if what I'm paying between premiums and deductibles is worth.

It doesn't matter if it's worth it or not. You no longer have a choice in the matter. You must carry health insurance or face the wrath of the IRS. There is no opt-out in this matter. If you "shirk" your insurance mandate, they'll sick the dogs on you.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 12:16 AM
rates will go up every year. I think the more appropriate bet would be when will her rates go down?? As Obama promised.

I can't get you to agree to any time frame or metric really. I am letting you set the rules here.

So at least a year out?

You are saying they this is going to be quite negative for her. And maybe they will? When do we get to check in?

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:17 AM
Someone waiving an Iranian flag obviously always has the best interest of Americans at heart.


Think of this day when you find yourself annoyed at how long you're waiting in line for your turn at dial-a-doc.


I have no problem predicting that rate increases will spike before the mandate in a pre-emptive strike.

No. Obama surely secured early price controls while he's in office as a part of this deal. He's not the dummy that everyone likes to think he is. For the short term, insurance rates might even go down. It will be fleeting.

chiefforlife
03-22-2010, 12:17 AM
Ok, so even more reason to dump coverage and pay the fine. Thanks for the correction.

It seemed ironic since you kept telling them they were failing the reading test...

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:19 AM
I can't get you to agree to any time frame or metric really. I am letting you set the rules here.

So at least a year out?

You are saying they this is going to be quite negative for her. And maybe they will? When do we get to check in?

Dude, what part of now and 2014 do you not get? Once again, I know you are a slower but damn, employer mandates don't kick in until 2014. So let's say Jan 1, 2014.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:19 AM
It seemed ironic since you kept telling them they were failing the reading test...

karma and irony, go figure

Chiefshrink
03-22-2010, 12:19 AM
Because healthcare isn't complicated.

You are truly a "greenhorn idiot". You young commie idealogues will be changing your tune in a few yrs and be regretting your current worldview of hating Capitalism and America as we used to know it.:rolleyes: because in the real world of socialism the middle class eventually gets eliminated and the poor get poorer while the "commie c**ks and tyrannical t**s you suck on that you voted for in this past election get richer and more powerful by the day.:rolleyes:

Jenson71
03-22-2010, 12:20 AM
It isn't about can't Mr. Jenson. It is about what is cheaper. If I can dump my health insurance costs and the salaries of non-revenue making positions, such as HR people, it might benefit me cost wise in the long run to pay the fine instead.

But if you dump those positions, you wouldn't have to pay the fine.

I might not be getting what you're saying. That paying a fine might be cheaper than paying health insurance? Well, fine. Then nothing has changed, right?

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 12:21 AM
You are truly a "greenhorn idiot". You young commie idealogues will be changing your tune in a few yrs and be regretting your current worldview of hating Capitalism and America as we used to know it.:rolleyes: because in the real world of socialism the middle class eventually gets eliminated and the poor get poorer while the "commie c**ks and tyrannical t**s you suck on that you voted for in this past election get richer and more powerful by the day.:rolleyes:

Healthcare is complicated. This isn't a partisan thing. It is a big complicated system. Ridiculing someone for asking questions about is kind of silly.

blaise
03-22-2010, 12:22 AM
You just can't quit me, can you? :p :p




:doh!:

I don't get it. I never said I had you on ignore. Those were your words, so why wouldn't I be able to respond to something you wrote (or pasted)?

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 12:23 AM
Dude, what part of now and 2014 do you not get? Once again, I know you are a slower but damn, employer mandates don't kick in until 2014. So let's say Jan 1, 2014.

Because between now and [insert date] seems silly on your end. Surely you don't mean that.

So we can check in next week and you feel like her rates will be higher?

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:23 AM
I don't know what the timeline is. Timelines are hard to predict because there are so many moving pieces. What I do know is that our government size is unsustainable. We have no production base, and we keep expanding government.

This bill, while touted as healthcare reform, is really nothing more than an insurance industry bail-out. It's a quid-pro-quo. We, the democrats, will deliver to you, the insurance industry 30 billion new customers by mandate, and in return, we demand these reforms. The deal was made a long time ago. The rest is just theatre.

Der Flöprer
03-22-2010, 12:24 AM
What will this do to a middle class single woman in her thirties making between 30 and 50 thousand dollars per year who already has medical, dental, and vision insurance? How will this affect me?

LMAO You didn't................

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:25 AM
I just don't see how this won't increase rates eventually, and what keeps low income people from not carrying health insurance and paying the fine, then when they become sick some insurance company will be forced to insure them?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:26 AM
But if you dump those positions, you wouldn't have to pay the fine.

I might not be getting what you're saying. That paying a fine might be cheaper than paying health insurance? Well, fine. Then nothing has changed, right?

Nothing has changed? If I am an employee getting good-excellent coverage from my employer and he dumps it then I am now going through the Fed Gov exchange. Which will more than likely cost me more, since it is coming out of my pocket as opposed to employer provided and probably not guarantee the same coverage. My only hope as an employee is that the boss gives me a raise in pay to help compensate for my loss of insurance. But he probably won't.

luv
03-22-2010, 12:27 AM
Things like this I don't really understand make me nervous. I probably should have looked more into it before it happened, but it was kind of an "if it doesn't happen I won't need to bother" type of thing. Now, it's an "oh shit, it's happened, so now what happens to me" type of thing.

I figured there would be opinions in here along with fact, but I appreciate getting information I can use. Thanks.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:28 AM
I just don't see how this won't increase rates eventually, and what keeps low income people from not carrying health insurance and paying the fine, then when they become sick some insurance company will be forced to insure them?

That's just it. Nothing. All of our rates are going to go up. If anything to compensate for the price caps the bill puts on out of pocket expenses and such.

chiefforlife
03-22-2010, 12:29 AM
I just don't see how this won't increase rates eventually, and what keeps low income people from not carrying health insurance and paying the fine, then when they become sick some insurance company will be forced to insure them?

This is a great question. Sort of what Pete is saying but taking it a step further and forcing the insurance company to accept them. Hmmm.

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:31 AM
I believe that is the whole idea behind making it illegal to not carry insurance. But i think the fine is like 2.7 percent of your income or something. I would be interested to see at what income it would be more affordable to pay the find instead of the premiums

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:33 AM
I believe that is the whole idea behind making it illegal to not carry insurance. But i think the fine is like 2.7 percent of your income or something. I would be interested to see at what income it would be more affordable to pay the find instead of the premiums

I think it's $2500 or 2.7%, whichever is greater.

So let's say you make $100k a year. So you pay an extra $2700 a year in fines. That's $225 a month. Go try and find a good health care plan for $225 a month.

Chiefshrink
03-22-2010, 12:34 AM
30 billion new customers by mandate, and in return, we demand these reforms. The deal was made a long time ago. The rest is just theatre.

You mean 30 million new customers who can't pay. How's that for paying for this catastrophic mess of a bill coming down the pike. :shake:

luv
03-22-2010, 12:34 AM
I believe that is the whole idea behind making it illegal to not carry insurance. But i think the fine is like 2.7 percent of your income or something. I would be interested to see at what income it would be more affordable to pay the find instead of the premiums

I'd be interested in that, too. At my current income, a 2.7% fine would be less than what I'm paying per year in premiums alone. However, I would want to know what is covered by the government. Just yearly wellness exams? What about prescriptions, dental, and vision?

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:35 AM
I believe that is the whole idea behind making it illegal to not carry insurance. But i think the fine is like 2.7 percent of your income or something. I would be interested to see at what income it would be more affordable to pay the find instead of the premiums

There are a lot of poor people who will end up with a multi-hundred dollar sticker shock come April when they find out that they owe the IRS money for healthcare that they're not receiving.

Jenson71
03-22-2010, 12:35 AM
Nothing has changed? If I am an employee getting good-excellent coverage from my employer and he dumps it then I am now going through the Fed Gov exchange. Which will more than likely cost me more, since it is coming out of my pocket as opposed to employer provided and probably not guarantee the same coverage. My only hope as an employee is that the boss gives me a raise in pay to help compensate for my loss of insurance. But he probably won't.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Well I'd be surprised that the fine is less than the actual cost of providing. I wouldn't think they would issue a fine and then you'd be done. They would keep fining you.

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:36 AM
so is there anything to keep people from doing that? I am obviously not a big supporter of the bill but i would like to hear from someone who is. I know Insurance companies are evil and what not but there is not way in hell any industry can survive such a dramatic increase in costs without raising prices

Jenson71
03-22-2010, 12:36 AM
There are a lot of poor people who will end up with a multi-hundred dollar sticker shock come April when they find out that they owe the IRS money for healthcare that they're not receiving.

Aren't they eligible for Medicaid?

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:37 AM
Oh, I see what you're saying.

Well I'd be surprised that the fine is less than the actual cost of providing. I wouldn't think they would issue a fine and then you'd be done. They would keep fining you.

well if the fine is based on your yearly income i would assume it could only be applied yearly

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 12:37 AM
Because between now and [insert date] seems silly on your end. Surely you don't mean that.

So we can check in next week and you feel like her rates will be higher?

:spock:

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:37 AM
You mean 30 million new customers who can't pay. How's that for paying for this catastrophic mess of a bill coming down the pike. :shake:

That's the thing that I don't understand about this bill. They are mandating 30 million people who do not currently have coverage to get it or face penalty via the IRS. Where are these folks supposed to get the money?

Of course, the obvious answer is what the liberals around this place revealed during the discussion. They're looking for the slippery slope effect to bring this thing around to the system that they really want.

chiefforlife
03-22-2010, 12:37 AM
I think it's $2500 or 2.7%, whichever is greater.

So let's say you make $100k a year. So you pay an extra $2700 a year in fines. That's $225 a month. Go try and find a good health care plan for $225 a month.

I realize thats cheaper than having health insurance but its still 225 a month and you DONT have health insurance. You dont get anything for that 225 a month.
The loophole is that if you do get sick, the insurance company HAS to then cover you. As brought up earlier.

Jenson71
03-22-2010, 12:38 AM
well if the fine is based on your yearly income i would assume it could only be applied yearly

Well, I was talking about the businesses not providing.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:39 AM
I realize thats cheaper than having health insurance but its still 225 a month and you DONT have health insurance. You dont get anything for that 225 a month.
The loophole is that if you do get sick, the insurance company HAS to then cover you. As brought up earlier.

But what is the difference if I pay $225 a month and have no insurance and pay $300-$400 a month and have insurance and don't use it? Since they have to tak eme with pre-existing conditions then I choose the lesser of 2 evils and pay the fine until I HAVE to have insurance. See?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:42 AM
Well, I was talking about the businesses not providing.

You're forgetting though the salaries I can dump. You do realize there are HR people who are employed to do nothing but manage benefits for companies, right? They make $0 for the company and cost a ton. So if can dump a couple $30k-$70k a year salaries on top of it all it makes things look more appealing. Point is don't just look at it as a employee cost if insurance. By dumping insurance I can also dump some employees.

chiefforlife
03-22-2010, 12:42 AM
But what is the difference if I pay $225 a month and have no insurance and pay $300-$400 a month and have insurance and don't use it? Since they have to tak eme with pre-existing conditions then I choose the lesser of 2 evils and pay the fine until I HAVE to have insurance. See?

Yep.

There must be something to prevent this. If we thought of it in a simple discussion, surely they did too.

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:43 AM
Well, I was talking about the businesses not providing.

Oh i misunderstood, I do not know the bill extremely well but I did read that CAT estimated it would cost something like 100 million. Unless they are lying that sure seems like a pretty big number for the first year of this.

I couldn't post the link, not enough posts i guess but it is on fox's business site

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:43 AM
Yep.

There must be something to prevent this. If we thought of it in a simple discussion, surely they did too.

They thought of it and this is what they want. Because THEY, the Fed Gov get my taxes as fines, and then THEY, the Fed Gov, will ultimately have me on their tit whne I run to them for insurance whne I need it.

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:45 AM
the "something to prevent this" from what I have read is the 2.7% fine and i guess if you don't have health insurance prescriptions and doctor's visit will cost you more as well. I am just not sure it still wouldn't be worth it to a lot of people

alnorth
03-22-2010, 12:45 AM
What will this do to a middle class single woman in her thirties making between 30 and 50 thousand dollars per year who already has medical, dental, and vision insurance? How will this affect me?

In this answer, I am assuming you are employed and get your insurance through a group plan at work.

No BS or politics, just the facts:

Benefits:

(this does impact you) Your insurance coverage will no longer have a lifetime cap. More than likely your insurance currently has a lifetime cap of $1 or $2 million. That may sound like a lot of coverage, but if you get a really nasty form of cancer, you could hit that cap, then voila: medical bankruptcy. This is probably the biggest benefit for people who have health care through their employer.

(probably does not impact you right now) Beginning in 2014, you can not be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions. This probably doesn't impact you now if your in a group health plan. If for some reason your in a situation where you need to buy insurance, then there you go.

(Probably doesn't apply to you) but if you have kids, they must be permitted to stay on your plan through age 26.

(does not apply to you) expand medicaid to include 133% of the poverty level. Also, beginning 2014, expand medicaid to childless adults who otherwise would have qualified under the income requirements.

(does not apply to you) The Medicare prescription drug "donut hole" will be closed by 2020. This will be gradually phased in, with only minor compensation the first few years. Currently prescription drugs are covered up to some amount, then you have to pay, then medicare pays again after a higher amount up to infinite. (thus the "donut hole" in your coverage. Kind of like a big fat deductible in the middle instead of the beginning of the claim)

(does not apply to you, unless your employer decides to stop giving you coverage) uninsured and self-employed people with an income between 133% and 400% of the poverty level receive subsidies to purchase insurance through new state-based health insurance exchanges.

Costs:

(unknown indirect costs) It's anyone's guess how this will shake out in terms of health care costs and insurance company profitability. If you are a democrat, you think everything is sunshine and roses, costs will come down, insurance companies will reduce premiums due to increased competition, everyone saves a lot of money in the long run, Obama is carved into Mt. Rushmore. If you are a Republican, then health care costs and insurance premiums will skyrocket, employers will lay tons of people off, and the economy will go into a depression. I guess we'll see what happens.

(does not apply to you, unless your employer decides to drop your coverage) This is the big one, the huge controversial part of the bill. Beginning in 2014, everyone MUST have insurance. If they dont qualify for medicaid and dont get it through their employer, they must buy it. People who fail to be insured face an annual $695 fine on their income tax. This is necessary because you cant tell the insurance companies to eliminate pre-existing conditions without forcing everyone to buy coverage.

(probably does not apply to you since your employer gives you insurance): companies with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2,000/worker/year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase insurance. (theoretically if you have a lot of employees and pay them all so much money that no one qualifies for subsidies, then I guess you can choose not to offer insurance and not worry about the fine)

(probably applies to everyone who pays income taxes) The feds only pay for the medicaid expansion through 2016. After that, your state will have to figure out how to pay for it.

(does not apply to you yet) $500M in cuts in compensation for medicare. Could potentially discourage doctors from accepting medicare patients. If this turns out to be a big problem, congress will need to re-examine this.

(does not apply to you) Beginning in 2012, there will be a medicare tax for unearned income by wealthy people. 3.8% for the amount of investment income that exceeds $250,000 for a family ($200,000 for individuals) For example, if a family sells a stock and earns $300,000 in investment profit, they would pay a medicare tax of 0.038 x (300,000 - 250,000) = $1,900

(probably doesn't apply to you? Unless your in a powerful union or an executive?) Beginning in 2018, a big 40% excise tax will be levied on insurance companies providing "cadillac" health insurance plans. These would obviously be passed down to the employer, who would probably be then encouraged to find a cheaper plan. The health plans impacted are those costing over $27,500/yr for families, and $10,200/yr for individuals. Dental and Vision plans are exempt and not included in this calculation.

(No idea if this applies to you, you tell me!) 10% tax on tanning services.

Other Stuff:

Illegal immigrants are specifically barred from Medicaid. Illegal immigrants are also barred from buying insurance on the health insurance exchanges, even if they offer to pay with their own money. (political sidenote, Republicans complain that enforcement of this is lacking. The law may bar them, but the law doesn't require rigorous screening like for other government programs)

Starting 2014, health insurance exchanges will be created for small businesses to purchase health care. Bonus funding will be available to states who decide to start up the exchanges early, until 2015.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:49 AM
the "something to prevent this" from what I have read is the 2.7% fine and i guess if you don't have health insurance prescriptions and doctor's visit will cost you more as well. I am just not sure it still wouldn't be worth it to a lot of people

I go to the doctor maybe once a year. $65 out of my pocket. Let's say I get one prescription a year. $80 out of my pocket and that is brand name.

Most healthy people would be better off waiting until they need insurance and paying the fine in the meantime. That is if you don't have employer provided.

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:50 AM
I go to the doctor maybe once a year. $65 out of my pocket. Let's say I get one prescription a year. $80 out of my pocket and that is brand name.

Most healthy people would be better off waiting until they need insurance and paying the fine in the meantime. That is if you don't have employer provided.

exactly, and if millions of people doing just that wont send rates up then nothing ever will

cdcox
03-22-2010, 12:51 AM
Nothing has changed? If I am an employee getting good-excellent coverage from my employer and he dumps it then I am now going through the Fed Gov exchange. Which will more than likely cost me more, since it is coming out of my pocket as opposed to employer provided and probably not guarantee the same coverage. My only hope as an employee is that the boss gives me a raise in pay to help compensate for my loss of insurance. But he probably won't.

Won't workers prefer employers that pay health insurance?

Won't the invisible hand of the market force employers to provide insurance in order to attract the best employees? I know I'm not going to work for any employer that doesn't provide health insurance or enough extra compensation for me to buy it on the open market.

And if everyone ends up without health ins, there are a whole lot of medical care providers that are going to have to drop their prices.

I'm pretty sure the invisible hand of the market is going to adapt to the new playing field.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:54 AM
exactly, and if millions of people doing just that wont send rates up then nothing ever will

But it will send rates up. Because when everyone scrambles to get coverage it will be when they need it for something. Thus insurance companies will be paying out immediately for your required services and can onl charge you up to your cap. And they have not been collecting premiums in the meantime so their cash reserves will be lower. Therefore they will have to raise rates. Or, if the Fed Gov doesn't let them raise rates, the Fed Gov will have to raise taxes on you. The cost has to be paid from somewhere. We cannot pretend simply because Obama says you are capped at $10k a yar out of pocket expenses that the costs will just stop at $10k. So if your rates don't go up, your taxes will.

jbwm89
03-22-2010, 12:55 AM
Won't workers prefer employers that pay health insurance?

Won't the invisible hand of the market force employers to provide insurance in order to attract the best employees? I know I'm not going to work for any employer that doesn't provide health insurance or enough extra compensation for me to buy it on the open market.

And if everyone ends up without health ins, there are a whole lot of medical care providers that are going to have to drop their prices.

I'm pretty sure the invisible hand of the market is going to adapt to the new playing field.

That would be the desired effect, but if rates are high enough then employers flat out wont be able to afford to do those things. While someone would prefer to work for a company that provides health insurance, people will work for one who doesn't before they are unemployed. This is pretty much the way it is pre this bill, it will do nothing but make the problem worse

Chiefshrink
03-22-2010, 12:56 AM
That's the thing that I don't understand about this bill. They are mandating 30 million people who do not currently have coverage to get it or face penalty via the IRS. Where are these folks supposed to get the money?

Of course, the obvious answer is what the liberals around this place revealed during the discussion. They're looking for the slippery slope effect to bring this thing around to the system that they really want.

DING DING DING DING!!!! You and I and a few others in this forum KNOW this is by design to cause social chaos so as surrender more liberties and freedom over time for the sake of "PSEUDO SECURITY" to get their so-called perfect collectivism society (ala-Marxist rule).

You are spot on!!!:thumb:

blaise
03-22-2010, 12:57 AM
I can't help it but when I read the thread title I imagine the guy from Yo Gabba Gabba saying "Let's do this, break it down."
People without little kids will have no idea what that means.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 12:58 AM
Won't workers prefer employers that pay health insurance?

Won't the invisible hand of the market force employers to provide insurance in order to attract the best employees? I know I'm not going to work for any employer that doesn't provide health insurance or enough extra compensation for me to buy it on the open market.

And if everyone ends up without health ins, there are a whole lot of medical care providers that are going to have to drop their prices.

I'm pretty sure the invisible hand of the market is going to adapt to the new playing field.

That all sounds fine and good. What if companies across the board dropped the coverage? Or only provided it to managment and executives? You can say who or what you wil work for, then there si who and what they will offer you as opposed to the next guy. You may insist on benefits but the other 10 interviewing for your position may not.

Taco John
03-22-2010, 12:59 AM
I can't help it but when I read the thread title I imagine the guy from Yo Gabba Gabba saying "Let's do this, break it down."
People without little kids will have no idea what that means.


Go DJ Lance! Go DJ Lance!

alnorth
03-22-2010, 12:59 AM
That's the thing that I don't understand about this bill. They are mandating 30 million people who do not currently have coverage to get it or face penalty via the IRS. Where are these folks supposed to get the money?

Of course, the obvious answer is what the liberals around this place revealed during the discussion. They're looking for the slippery slope effect to bring this thing around to the system that they really want.

People making between 133% and 400% of the poverty level will receive subsidies to purchase insurance. Probably not for the full cost, but they will probably have to pay less than everyone else. (under 133% poverty level, go straight to medicaid, dont pass go, dont collect $200)

alnorth
03-22-2010, 01:02 AM
That all sounds fine and good. What if companies across the board dropped the coverage? Or only provided it to managment and executives? You can say who or what you wil work for, then there si who and what they will offer you as opposed to the next guy. You may insist on benefits but the other 10 interviewing for your position may not.

This wont happen immediately. An employer who currently pays for health insurance wont suddenly drop it, there's almost no reason for that, unless you are in a mega-powerful union or a big executive, in which case they would probably offer you a downgraded cheaper plan with a bigger deductible. "Cadillac" plans are actually pretty damn rare, I know my company (a mega-huge corporation) doesnt pay nearly enough to hit the limit to get taxed on it. Down the road if insurers raise rates dramatically, then thats a different story, but no one knows for certain that will actually happen yet.

Chiefshrink
03-22-2010, 01:05 AM
That all sounds fine and good. What if companies across the board dropped the coverage? Or only provided it to managment and executives? You can say who or what you wil work for, then there si who and what they will offer you as opposed to the next guy. You may insist on benefits but the other 10 interviewing for your position may not.

Bottom line: These 'bean counters'(ala accountants) for these big cos. will go to their CEO's and say "It's much better for our bottom line profit to pay the fines than cover our employees through private health ins. Meaning this will eventually be the end of private health ins cos. thus only the govt is the only option out there this is why the radical commies want the public option because the govt can print $$ and the ins cos. cannot. Thus govt will always be cheaper in premium costs but whoooooooooooooooooa to the care or more likely denial of care you will receive as you get older:shake:

Chiefshrink
03-22-2010, 01:07 AM
This wont happen immediately. An employer who currently pays for health insurance wont suddenly drop it, there's almost no reason for that, unless you are in a mega-powerful union or a big executive, in which case they would probably offer you a downgraded cheaper plan with a bigger deductible. "Cadillac" plans are actually pretty damn rare, I know my company (a mega-huge corporation) doesnt pay nearly enough to hit the limit to get taxed on it. Down the road if insurers raise rates dramatically, then thats a different story, but no one knows for certain that will actually happen yet.

Think again. This economy is bad and will continue to get worse. Big Cos. will drop coverage alot sooner than you think in order to survive.:thumb:

alnorth
03-22-2010, 01:09 AM
Think again. This economy is bad and will continue to get worse. Big Cos. will drop coverage alot sooner than you think in order to survive.:thumb:

If that happens (yeah, right), it will be because of the economy, not because of this bill.

You have to keep in mind, there's nothing keeping an employer from not offering insurance NOW. No fines, no mandate, they are currently choosing to offer insurance. Theoretically if health insurance prices skyrocket because of the plan, thats a new issue, but until that actually happens, that falls under speculation and fear-based politics.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 01:10 AM
You may insist on benefits but the other 10 interviewing for your position may not.

I wanted to focus in on this.

Companies and the employees that they hire usually deserve each other for better or for worse. If a company of any kind of size wants to get quality they are going to have health available to its employees. If they want to get bargain basement...well thats what they will give and receive.

I can't forsee this happening but if I decided to change course and actually work for a company then one that wasn't offering health would get a handshake and all the luck in the world from me.

This varies by industry and market but companies who go out of their way to get quality get quality in return. There are a lot of indirect benefits as well.

It is like the wedding photography market. I deal with this all the time. Someone wants me to do their wedding for $400. Noting wrong with that but it isn't in my interest financially...isn't close to the number needed. There are a ton of photographers who will do that, which is great. It is a free market. Bargain hunters don't hire my studio and what I get is a customer base that saw my work...saw the price tag and paid for a service they saw value in. Meanwhile the bargain hunters are the most troublesome from a customer service standpoint while the customer I targeted is generally easier to work with.

The market allows for all of this. 10 interviewees and they don't need health? The company isn't giving health? Best of luck to them. I just saved time I could have wasted at a company I wouldn't like because it isn't about quality. They were even nice enough to raise the red flag in the interview process.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 01:11 AM
If that happens (yeah, right), it will be because of the economy, not because of this bill.

You have to keep in mind, there's nothing keeping an employer from not offering insurance NOW. No fines, no mandate, they are currently choosing to offer insurance. Theoretically if health insurance prices skyrocket because of the plan, thats a new issue, but until that actually happens, that falls under speculation and fear-based politics.

Rep. :clap:

CoMoChief
03-22-2010, 01:13 AM
But if you dump those positions, you wouldn't have to pay the fine.

I might not be getting what you're saying. That paying a fine might be cheaper than paying health insurance? Well, fine. Then nothing has changed, right?

So then unemployment spikes because jobs are laying people left and right so they don't have to pay for them to be insured, and businesses aren't ran nearly as effectively for not having the people you need. There's a catch 22, There's always going to be cut losses when you try and implement a socialistic agenda in a capitalist society. Businesses don't like to lose money, be fined etc. In capitalist America, you have to make up the money you lost somehow, whether that's laying off workers you can no longer afford to have work for you, or increase prices of your services.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 01:14 AM
So then unemployment spikes because jobs are laying people left and right so they don't have to pay for them to be insured, and businesses aren't ran nearly as effectively for not having the people you need. There's a catch 22, There's always going to be cut losses when you try and implement a socialistic agenda in a capitalist society. Businesses don't like to lose money, be fined etc. In capitalist America, you have to make up the money you lost somehow, whether that's laying off workers you can no longer afford to have work for you, or increase prices of your services.

If they want to hurt their business.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:14 AM
I wanted to focus in on this.

Companies and the employees that they hire usually deserve each other for better or for worse. If a company of any kind of size wants to get quality they are going to have health available to its employees. If they want to get bargain basement...well thats what they will give and receive.

I can't forsee this happening but if I decided to change course and actually work for a company then one that wasn't offering health would get a handshake and all the luck in the world from me.

This varies by industry and market but companies who go out of their way to get quality get quality in return. There are a lot of indirect benefits as well.

It is like the wedding photography market. I deal with this all the time. Someone wants me to do their wedding for $400. Noting wrong with that but it isn't in my interest financially...isn't close to the number needed. There are a ton of photographers who will do that, which is great. It is a free market. Bargain hunters don't hire my studio and what I get is a customer base that saw my work...saw the price tag and paid for a service they saw value in. Meanwhile the bargain hunters are the most troublesome from a customer service standpoint while the customer I targeted is generally easier to work with.

The market allows for all of this. 10 interviewees and they don't need health? The company isn't giving health? Best of luck to them. I just saved time I could have wasted at a company I wouldn't like because it isn't about quality. They were even nice enough to raise the red flag in the interview process.

Companies are cutting costs more and more. And that includes paying less and less for an employees insurance.

cdcox
03-22-2010, 01:15 AM
That all sounds fine and good. What if companies across the board dropped the coverage? Or only provided it to managment and executives? You can say who or what you wil work for, then there si who and what they will offer you as opposed to the next guy. You may insist on benefits but the other 10 interviewing for your position may not.

So under the doomsday scenario:


Most employers don't provide health insurance

Healthy people pay a fine rather than get insurance.

Health insurance companies raise their rates because everyone in their system is sick.


Let's take it a little further:


At some point, if everyone in the HI system is sick, it makes no sense. The least sick people will be better off paying for their medical care directly and will drop out of the HI system. This shifts the cost to fewer people, and again the least sick people will bail out of the system. Eventually, everyone gets out.

Some people will flat out not be able to afford the insurance or the medical bills. Fewer people will be getting treated. Doctors will be twiddling their thumbs.


And people, health insurance companies, health care providers and the government will be locked into a situation that is impossible to change????? No. People and institutions will make adjustments.

This turns everything upside down. Is this the final word on health care for the next 10 years? I doubt it. People and institutions will adjust. This is a new day where we are shaking things up. I don't know how the new system will work, neither does the CBO, or anyone else. The old system was broke. It's better to shake things up and make adjustments on the fly rather than just sit is the puke of our former system.

Change. It was a constant fact of life before Obama. Embrace it.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 01:18 AM
This turns everything upside down. Is this the final word on health care for the next 10 years? I doubt it. People and institutions will adjust. This is a new day where we are shaking things up. I don't know how the new system will work, neither does the CBO, or anyone else. The old system was broke. It's better to shake things up and make adjustments on the fly rather than just sit is the puke of our former system.



I couldn't agree more.

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 01:18 AM
Companies are cutting costs more and more. And that includes paying less and less for an employees insurance.

Not every company is Sprint.

stevieray
03-22-2010, 01:20 AM
The old system was broke. It's better to shake things up and make adjustments on the fly rather than just sit is the puke of our former system.


what an absolute load of horseshit.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:21 AM
So under the doomsday scenario:


Most employers don't provide health insurance

Healthy people pay a fine rather than get insurance.

Health insurance companies raise their rates because everyone in their system is sick.


Let's take it a little further:


At some point, if everyone in the HI system is sick, it makes no sense. The least sick people will be better off paying for their medical care directly and will drop out of the HI system. This shifts the cost to fewer people, and again the least sick people will bail out of the system. Eventually, everyone gets out.

Some people will flat out not be able to afford the insurance or the medical bills. Fewer people will be getting treated. Doctors will be twiddling their thumbs.


And people, health insurance companies, health care providers and the government will be locked into a situation that is impossible to change????? No. People will make adjustments.

This turns everything upside down. Is this the final word on health care for the next 10 years? I doubt it. People and institutions will adjust. This is a new day where we are shaking things up. I don't know how the new system will work, neither does the CBO, or anyone else. The old system was broke. It's better to shake things up and make adjustments on the fly rather than just sit is the puke of our former system.

Change. It was a constant fact of life before Obama. Embrace it.

Sure change is a constant fact. But why inflict change for the worse when you don't have too? Have you not learned anything from Social Security and Medicare? do you actually think now because Dear Leader is in charge the Fed Gov is not going to fuck up health care like that have the other two? What in God's name would ever make you think such a thing? You know what is going to happen to the health care $'s? Samething as SS $'s. We will spend it on other things than health care, run the till dry and carry a deficit because of it. No one in their right minds can look at the history of our government, particulalry one as spend happy as the current one, and even think for a second this is going to work out like they say. Yhe old system is broke but that doesn't mean the new system fixes it in any way. In fact, the new system could make it worse.

alnorth
03-22-2010, 01:23 AM
Companies are cutting costs more and more. And that includes paying less and less for an employees insurance.

If I were king overlord tzar of America, I would mandate just catastrophic coverage and heavily encourage/subsidize HSA's to help people pay the deductible. That way, they actually have to care how much the doctor is charging. I know my company is doing everything they can to encourage us to go that route because the insurance is a lot cheaper. I bet I would have gotten a lot of GOP support for that, too.

Sadly, I have no such power and people still love that expensive "we'll pay almost every single dollar of care, give us $20 per visit" insurance. Its like everyone buying full auto coverage with only a $50 deductible because their employer pays for 75% of it, so they dont see the cost difference of that extra unnecessary insurance. If you have to buy your own auto insurance, you start to think you can get buy just fine with a $500 deductible.

KC_Connection
03-22-2010, 01:23 AM
I see Pete rivals his basketball knowledge over here.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:24 AM
If I were king overlord tzar of America, I would mandate just catastrophic coverage and heavily encourage/subsidize HSA's to help people pay the deductible. That way, they actually have to care how much the doctor is charging. I know my company is doing everything they can to encourage us to go that route because the insurance is a lot cheaper. I bet I would have gotten a lot of GOP support for that, too.

Sadly, I have no such power and people still love that expensive "we'll pay almost every single dollar of care, give us $20 per visit" insurance. Its like everyone buying full auto coverage with only a $50 deductible because their employer pays for 75% of it, so they dont see the cost difference of that extra unnecessary insurance. If you have to buy your own auto insurance, you start to think you can get buy just fine with a $500 deductible.

Agreed 100%

alnorth
03-22-2010, 01:26 AM
what an absolute load of horseshit.

To be fair, our current system does suck pretty badly for an industrialized country. We pay, by far, more for our health care than anyone in the world, and get below-average care for it (on average, including everyone who gets no care at all until they finally have to go to the hospital).

Does it mean we need a socialist single-payer system? Hell no, but we can figure out a new unique american system thats better than the steaming pile we have now.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:26 AM
I see Pete rivals his basketball knowledge over here.

Your're out of your league here...this ain't Lawrence:D

The Phog got nuttin' on DC!

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:28 AM
To be fair, our current system does suck pretty badly for an industrialized country. We pay, by far, more for our health care than anyone in the world, and get below-average care for it (on average, including everyone who gets no care at all until they finally have to go to the hospital).

Does it mean we need a socialist single-payer system? Hell no, but we can figure out a new unique american system thats better than the steaming pile we have now.

You know, knocking down the State Line issue would be huge. But for some reason that isn't in the historic bill. Because this is an insurance bailout and power grab, not health reform.

CoMoChief
03-22-2010, 01:30 AM
If that happens (yeah, right), it will be because of the economy, not because of this bill.

You have to keep in mind, there's nothing keeping an employer from not offering insurance NOW. No fines, no mandate, they are currently choosing to offer insurance. Theoretically if health insurance prices skyrocket because of the plan, thats a new issue, but until that actually happens, that falls under speculation and fear-based politics.

What part of "now having to cover people with pre-existing conditions" do you not understand?!?!?

It's the same concept with bad drivers with high risk liab insurance policies. If you're a major risk on the road, cause a lot of accidents, DUI's and have been cancelled by a few insurance companies, guess what....you're going to have to pay out the ass for anyone to cover you.

Same with companies now having to cover people with pre-existing conditions. If someone's had heart problems their whole lives or has been on kidney dialysis their whole lives (I know a couple), they're gonna cost 1000x more to cover than some regular Joe Smith that hardly gets sick etc other than some doctor visits and maybe the occasional Rx. Who makes up for the price then? Who makes up for all the extra money the insurance companies are dishing out to cover these expenses? This is capitalistic America, these HC companies are also in it for make money. Their going to have to raise prices somewhere to make up for all the money they are losing on pre-existing conditioned patients.

People's premiums will have to go up. These people w/ pre-existing conditions are considered "high risk". You can't just make that go away and pretend like it's not there. When they do go up, large companies will look at their books and will make a determination on whether it's cheaper to insure their employer with a policy that's charging higher premiums than before, or pay the fine and have the govt take over their employers. If it's cheaper to pay the fines than it is for your company to insure you, guess what.....they're going to drop you from their plan and you will be eventually forced into buying the govt plan......or guess what??? Uncle Sam comes in and fines your ass for not paying for coverage....which by the way is unconstitutional for the government to force someone to pay for a service.


Oh yeah and did I mention that this bill is going to cost Trillions of dollars???? Not that any liberals care about the economy. Because most democrats think money grows on trees. Being a liberal and having common sense do not go hand in hand. It's considered an oxymoron.

cdcox
03-22-2010, 01:32 AM
Sure change is a constant fact. But why inflict change for the worse when you don't have too? Have you not learned anything from Social Security and Medicare? do you actually think now because Dear Leader is in charge the Fed Gov is not going to **** up health care like that have the other two? What in God's name would ever make you think such a thing? You know what is going to happen to the health care $'s? Samething as SS $'s. We will spend it on other things than health care, run the till dry and carry a deficit because of it. No one in their right minds can look at the history of our government, particulalry one as spend happy as the current one, and even think for a second this is going to work out like they say. Yhe old system is broke but that doesn't mean the new system fixes it in any way. In fact, the new system could make it worse.

I just don't deal with life from a position of fear. SSI? It's been in place for 75 years. I don't think any problem stays fixed for that long without making adjustments. It needs another major fix now. It's a problem. We can deal with it. Would I wipe out 75 years of SSI and the benefits it has provided for millions of Americans, just because it has created a problem that we have to deal with now?

We've done lots of things more recently that didn't work out nearly as well as SSI.

CoMoChief
03-22-2010, 01:33 AM
Not every company is Sprint.

No offense, but do you pay attention to the economy at all?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:34 AM
I just don't deal with life from a position of fear. SSI? It's been in place for 75 years. I don't think any problem stays fixed for that long without making adjustments. It needs another major fix now. It's a problem. We can deal with it. Would I wipe out 75 years of SSI and the benefits it has provided for millions of Americans, just because it has created a problem that we have to deal with now?

We've done lots of things more recently that didn't work out nearly as well as SSI.

What adjustments have you seen them make to fix SSI? SSI has been in danger for a long time. What have they done besides make it a political pawn?

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:34 AM
No offense, but do you pay attention to the economy at all?


No shit! Now he is just talking out of his ass. I guess Sprint is the only company laying people off and cutting costs. Little did you know they employed 6 million people!

|Zach|
03-22-2010, 01:35 AM
No offense, but do you pay attention to the economy at all?

Absolutely. I also work with business every week big and small. I see pocket books opening up more and more across the board.

cdcox
03-22-2010, 01:45 AM
If I were king overlord tzar of America, I would mandate just catastrophic coverage and heavily encourage/subsidize HSA's to help people pay the deductible. That way, they actually have to care how much the doctor is charging. I know my company is doing everything they can to encourage us to go that route because the insurance is a lot cheaper. I bet I would have gotten a lot of GOP support for that, too.

Sadly, I have no such power and people still love that expensive "we'll pay almost every single dollar of care, give us $20 per visit" insurance. Its like everyone buying full auto coverage with only a $50 deductible because their employer pays for 75% of it, so they dont see the cost difference of that extra unnecessary insurance. If you have to buy your own auto insurance, you start to think you can get buy just fine with a $500 deductible.

I easily pay $5000 per year in health care expenses out of pocket every year.
Give me a cheaper plan than the one I have now, that covers medical, dental, vision, mental health; with a $5K per household deductible; mandated for all Americans; government subsidy for low income families; and I'm all over it. Unfortunately our leaders didn't put that kind of plan together. I'm guessing the medical lobbies would have hated a plan like that -- and that is a big reason we don't have it.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:48 AM
I easily pay $5000 per year in health care expenses out of pocket every year.
Give me a cheaper plan than the one I have now, that covers medical, dental, vision, mental health; with a $5K per household deductible; mandated for all Americans; government subsidy for low income families; and I'm all over it. Unfortunately our leaders didn't put that kind of plan together. I'm guessing the medical lobbies would have hated a plan like that -- and that is a big reason we don't have it.

Don't be mad when you start paying more. Do people understand what "government subsidies" are? Sometimes I really wonder if they think the government gets their money from a tree? Then again, Pelosi and Obama seem to think so too.

cdcox
03-22-2010, 01:48 AM
What adjustments have you seen them make to fix SSI? SSI has been in danger for a long time. What have they done besides make it a political pawn?

1983.

petegz28
03-22-2010, 01:49 AM
1983.

SSI is still fucked and getting fucked more and more each day. So whatever you think they did over 27 years ago didn't or isn't working.

Ebolapox
03-22-2010, 01:50 AM
ya know, as against this bloated monstrocity as I am, I still go back to a closely held belief that I've always had about politics: it's never as bad as the opposition says it is, it's never as good as the supporters say it is. it's somewhere in the middle. now, how far in the middle? we'll find out soon enough.

cdcox
03-22-2010, 01:53 AM
Don't be mad when you start paying more. Do people understand what "government subsidies" are? Sometimes I really wonder if they think the government gets their money from a tree? Then again, Pelosi and Obama seem to think so too.

I don't consider our current level of taxation to be an excessive burden considering the great privilege of living in this country. I could have easily been born into a much shittier situation. I'm not begging to be taxed more, but a 20 or 30% increase in my federal taxes isn't going to get me bent out of shape. Too many good things around.

cdcox
03-22-2010, 01:54 AM
SSI is still ****ed and getting ****ed more and more each day. So whatever you think they did over 27 years ago didn't or isn't working.

That's the point. You have to keep fixing things. They don't stay fixed. That's life. 27 years is a long time.

cdcox
03-22-2010, 02:00 AM
Hell, even the Baldwin brothers managed to survive W without moving to Canada. Most of the worrying and bitching people do just isn't in proportion to the reality of how bad the actual situation really is.

CoMoChief
03-22-2010, 02:04 AM
Absolutely. I also work with business every week big and small. I see pocket books opening up more and more across the board.

Well then you would know that many companies around the country, not just Sprint, are laying off people left and right, the economy's tanking and the unemployment rate has been at an all-time high. Sprint's just the poster child around here for companies that are tanking.