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Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 08:32 AM
Pioli will bring Chiefs back to life

http://www.projo.com/sports/jimdonaldson/sp_fbn_jim_donaldson_22_03-22-10_O5HRUKN_v3.37be5c8.html

Relevance highlighted.

ORLANDO — If you know Scott Pioli, you know he’s going to do in Kansas City what he did in New England — win Super Bowls.

Most likely not in his second year on the job, as the Patriots did in 2001.

But he’ll get the job done. He always has.

Pioli knows football. He knows people. He knows how to evaluate not only how a player will perform on the field, but also his character — what he’ll be like in the locker room, where the all-important chemistry that is an integral part of championship teams is established and maintained.

He knows his business, as he showed throughout his nine years in New England, when, working hand-in-hand with coach Bill Belichick, Pioli assembled the talent that enabled the Patriots to play in four Super Bowls – winning three of them — and five AFC championship games.

The Pats won six division titles while Pioli was personnel chief, going 18-0 in 2007 before losing Super Bowl XLII in the final seconds to the Giants.

He knows how winning teams — championship teams — are built, and he’s determined to do it in Kansas City, where he’s now a couple of months into his second year as general manager.

“The big difference is that, in Kansas City, I was starting at ground zero,” he said Sunday afternoon, stopping to chat for a few minutes in the lobby of the Ritz-Carlton, where the NFL owners meetings are taking place this week.

The Chiefs were 2-14 in 2008, the year before he arrived. They doubled that win total last season.

“Where I’d come from,” he said, referring to his years with the Patriots, “we had a system and a program that was up and running, with people with a great deal of experience.”

It’s a somewhat different experience for Pioli in Kansas City, where he’s clearly at the top of the totem pole. In New England, Belichick had the last word. With the Chiefs, while Pioli discusses personnel moves with coach Todd Haley, he has the final say.

“It’s similar to my situation in New England,” Pioli said, “but the lead role has swapped.”

To help him in that lead role, he said: “I’ve brought in a number of people who are smarter than I am, starting with the head coach. I don’t ever kid myself that I know that part of the game well enough.”

The head coach is the 43-year-old Haley. It’s his first head-coaching job, but he has extensive experience working with teams that have had to rebuild — most recently the Arizona Cardinals, for whom he was offensive coordinator in 2008, when they won the NFC championship and played in the franchise’s first NFL title game since 1947.

“We have a shared vision of what it takes to build a successful franchise,” Pioli said.

To do that requires more than simply bringing in talented athletes.

“I’ve learned that chemistry is critical,” Pioli said. “In New England, we didn’t just have great players — we had great team players.”

The Patriots had players like Mike Vrabel, who was brought to Kansas City by Pioli last season as much for his leadership as his linebacking talents. Along with the likes of Willie McGinest and Tedy Bruschi, Vrabel made sure that every player who put on a New England uniform knew what was expected of him.

“We also had selfless leaders, like Roman Phifer, Bobby Hamilton, and Anthony Pleasant,” said Pioli, who recently added Pleasant to the K.C. staff as defensive line coach.

A veteran of 14 NFL seasons — the last three in New England — Pleasant is one of several Chiefs assistants with a Patriots connection.

When Charlie Weis was fired at Notre Dame, Pioli snapped him up as offensive coordinator. The Chiefs new defensive coordinator is Romeo Crennel, who was fired as head coach of the Browns after the 2008 season. Crennel and Weis were, of course, the coordinators for Belichick in New England when the Patriots won their three Super Bowls.

Pioli also has hired former Patriots defensive back Otis Smith and put him in charge of “defensive quality control.”

Throw in quarterback Matt Cassel, who filled in so capably for the Patriots after Brady was lost for the 2008 season when he was injured in the opener — against the Chiefs — and there clearly is a strong New England flavor to what Pioli sees as the recipe for success in Kansas City.

Which shouldn’t be surprising.

He doesn’t have to convince people with Patriots ties to, so to speak, buy the Kool-Aid he’s selling. They’ve already been drinking it for years.

“It happens all the time,” Pioli said of the practice of hiring people you know — and who know you.

“Look at what Josh (McDaniel) is doing in Denver. Look what happened when Brian Billick went to the Ravens, or when Andy Reid went to Philadelphia. (Bill) Parcells has done it everywhere he’s gone.

“It’s natural, when you’re looking for leaders.”

It’s been 40 years since the Chiefs have been to the Super Bowl. They’re looking to Pioli to lead them back.

It won’t be this year. But it may not be too many more.

Extra Point
03-22-2010, 08:37 AM
I get it! Pioli turns red Kool-Aid into gold!

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-22-2010, 08:37 AM
I don't necessarily agree.

Pete Carroll did not have a system that was anywhere near "up and running". He was a joke, and his players knew it.

However, NE did have a lot of pieces left over from the previous system: McGinest, Bruschi, Law, Troy Brown, Ted Johnson, etc.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 08:39 AM
I think this is my favorite part:

(Bill) Parcells has done it everywhere he’s gone.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-22-2010, 08:42 AM
It's pretty clear that he's married to the idea of his system. From an ideological standpoint, I understand. However, Pioli needs to be intellectually flexible enough to realize that as the dynamics of the game change, his system needs to change in order to maximize returns.

You can't assume that one approach to treating players or one defensive scheme is axiomatically better than another. It's dependent upon a multitude of factors.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 08:44 AM
It's pretty clear that he's married to the idea of his system. From an ideological standpoint, I understand. However, Pioli needs to be intellectually flexible enough to realize that as the dynamics of the game change, his system needs to change in order to maximize returns.

You can't assume that one approach to treating players or one defensive scheme is axiomatically better than another. It's dependent upon a multitude of factors.

You could have just said "Pioli is dumb."

Fritz88
03-22-2010, 08:47 AM
Pioli is the fucking WIN

Coogs
03-22-2010, 08:48 AM
I think this is my favorite part:

Brought in guys he is familiar with?

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 08:51 AM
Pioli assembled the talent that enabled the Patriots to play in four Super Bowls

PHEW! I was worried it was Belichick. Now we know.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-22-2010, 08:52 AM
You could have just said "Pioli is dumb."

I don't know if he's dumb. I think he's rigid to the point of making stupid decisions. Time will tell if he learns.

Extra Point
03-22-2010, 08:52 AM
You can't assume that one approach to treating players or one defensive scheme is axiomatically better than another. It's dependent upon a multitude of factors.

Like a bunch of 4-3 guys playing 3-4?

Drain, rinse, and don't repeat.

dirk digler
03-22-2010, 08:53 AM
I don't necessarily agree.

Pete Carroll did not have a system that was anywhere near "up and running". He was a joke, and his players knew it.

However, NE did have a lot of pieces left over from the previous system: McGinest, Bruschi, Law, Troy Brown, Ted Johnson, etc.

Yep and they inheirted a lot better team than what we have here.

I just don't see an excuse by Pioli. What he says about KC is absolutely true.

alpha_omega
03-22-2010, 08:58 AM
I can't argue with what he says here.

...in Kansas City, I was starting at ground zero,...

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-22-2010, 09:02 AM
At this point, I'm ambivalent about this offseason. The Chiefs spent wisely on their outside FA acquisitions, even if I believe they overpaid to retain a lot of poor players. I'm glad they didn't overpay for a guy like Dansby, who isn't a good run defender, and although I liked Dwan Edwards as a 5 tech, he's not worth anywhere near 4.5 million a year.

This FA market is flat retarded.

Ultimately, the success or failure of this regime will depend on the draft. They failed miserably in year one. If this draft is filled with reaches and poor value, then that is a much worse indicator than not signing Dansby, Dunta Robinson, Antrel Rolle, etc.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 09:02 AM
Yep and they inheirted a lot better team than what we have here.


15 of Pioli's 22 starters in the 2001 Super Bowl were not in New England when he arrived.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-22-2010, 09:05 AM
Yep and they inheirted a lot better team than what we have here.

I just don't see an excuse by Pioli. What he says about KC is absolutely true.

Well, kind of.

I mean, let's be honest:

He did inherit a team with a young LT with all the upside in the world, a game breaking RB, a player who looked like a #1 WR, a future pro bowl CB, one of the best DT prospects of the decade, the greatest TE of all time, and the 3rd and 34th overall picks.

Now, if you look at what those assets were spun into, it's pretty underwhelming.

dirk digler
03-22-2010, 09:08 AM
15 of Pioli's 22 starters in the 2001 Super Bowl were not in New England when he arrived.

They were 9-7 and 8-8 the 2 years prior to BB\Pioli taking over. Compare that with the Chiefs 4-12 and 2-14 record.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-22-2010, 10:02 AM
They were 9-7 and 8-8 the 2 years prior to BB\Pioli taking over. Compare that with the Chiefs 4-12 and 2-14 record.

Oh, and BB and Pioli's first season in NE was 5-11. I'm not saying that the Chiefs will win the Super Bowl this year, or even be within a year of the Pats second year W/L record..... but, the Chiefs are pretty close to where the Pats were going into their second year.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 10:10 AM
They were 9-7 and 8-8 the 2 years prior to BB\Pioli taking over. Compare that with the Chiefs 4-12 and 2-14 record.

And yet the roster still had to be turned over.

Just like it does in Kansas City.

In fact, here are the seven starters Pioli inherited in Kansas City:

Charles, Flowers, Carr, Waters, Albert, Bowe and Dorsey.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-22-2010, 10:13 AM
At this point, I'm ambivalent about this offseason. The Chiefs spent wisely on their outside FA acquisitions, even if I believe they overpaid to retain a lot of poor players. I'm glad they didn't overpay for a guy like Dansby, who isn't a good run defender, and although I liked Dwan Edwards as a 5 tech, he's not worth anywhere near 4.5 million a year.

This FA market is flat retarded.

Ultimately, the success or failure of this regime will depend on the draft. They failed miserably in year one. If this draft is filled with reaches and poor value, then that is a much worse indicator than not signing Dansby, Dunta Robinson, Antrel Rolle, etc.

Great post. Sums my thoughts up precisely.

DaWolf
03-22-2010, 11:09 AM
People usually go with what they know and do best. I think the critical thing is if you go with something, you make sure all of your organization is on the same page and all in. If Pioli feels better about the 3-4 system and the flexibility that provides, and that's his long term plan, then he should stick with it.

I think we've seen it before. Vermeil showed up here year one and took a team that Gunther had "built" to be a big, powerful team which runs the ball and uses the play action pass, and immediately tried to turn them into a quick, finesse type team that scores quickly and often. Edwards came in and made sure he dismantled the offense to slow down, and played his Tampa 2 scheme that he's familiar with.

The failure has always been in the execution. Vermeil paid little attention to defense and the two guys who he brought in were ill equipped to have autonomy over that side of the ball. You bring in a guy with the stature of Gregg Williams or someone like that and hand over the reigns of the defense to them, not jokes like GRob and Gunther. If you are Herm, you don't hand the reins of an offense over to an OL coach or have a guy who likes to play physical man coverage and blitz call a zone heavy cover 2 scheme. If you are Todd Haley, you don't keep around an OC that doesn't mesh with you, only to fire him and change the playbook two weeks before the season, and hire a DC that isn't necessarily a very good 3-4 DC.

Pioli is going to have his system just like Parcells and Holmgren have their systems. The bottom line is going to come down to how they draft, so if Pioli doesn't improve in that department then it's pointless. But probably the best thing he's done since taking over is bringing in people who all seem to finally be on the same page, and for the first time in a decade, I can look at our OC and DC and not be embarrassed by one or the other...

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 11:20 AM
for the first time in a decade, I can look at our OC and DC and not be embarrassed by one or the other...

Really?

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6639/gutpr5.jpg

keg in kc
03-22-2010, 11:33 AM
What the Chiefs are is a team that's been spiraling downwards for more than a decade - or "swirling 'round the bowl" as I like to put it. This is their 3rd complete rebuild in that time, and each one has involved a completely different approach to building a football team. They've gone from trying to retain the "glory" of the 90s (Gunther '99-'00) built around a defense that was already steadily declining, to trying to recapture the magical season the Rams had in '99 with a system Vermeil built around giving up picks for coaches and veteran players, to again building around defense with Edwards to now building around defense again, but with a drastically different scheme.

This has been one of the worst-managed franchises for years, as far as football goes. They've drafted poorly, they've never built a central core of talent, they've had little to no stability on the coaching staff, . That's where Pioli was starting from. And what he has to do is something their was a pretty lengthy article about during the coaching search last year (or was that even the GM search), when they were talking about how Clark wants to model the franchise around the Steelers. Not in terms of how they play, but how the organization as a whole is structured. They find the systems they want, which was apparently the 3-4 and a more pass-oriented offense, they find the coaches they want to execute that (which I think was Weis and Crennel all along), and then they stick with it...for years.

This has always been something that was going to take a while to turn around. 2009 was always the tear down and roster assessment year, sort of year 1a of the rebuild. 2010 is year 1b. If they're lucky they'll be competitive, although reality is they did win 4 games last year. Although on the other hand, they do play in one of the worst divisions in the game.

Fans are fickle. People are already turning on the 3-4, which is ironic after 10 years of hearing people talk about how they wanted the it. Now that they have it, they want the 4-3 again. I guess that's just how it goes; the grass is always greener. But what the franchise needs to do is stabilize, and that means Haley gets years to put it together. That means the defense doesn't change back to a 4-3 after a single year as a 3-4. Or two years. Or three. That means they stay on the course they're on.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 11:37 AM
They've drafted poorly, they've never built a central core of talent, they've had little to no stability on the coaching staff.

So far Pioli has seen that those traditions continue.

that means Haley gets years to put it together

I bet you he isn't even here in three years. He'll be scapegoat #1.

keg in kc
03-22-2010, 12:08 PM
So far Pioli has seen that those traditions continue.



I bet you he isn't even here in three years. He'll be scapegoat #1.You're proving my point about fans being fickle. 12 months later we know everything. No sense of time.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 12:11 PM
You're proving my point about fans being fickle. 12 months later we know everything. No sense of time.

Sorry, Keg, the time was last year. And they fucked last year up.

So far they are no better than all the other clowns that had the Chiefs swirling round the bowl.

kysirsoze
03-22-2010, 12:21 PM
Is there anything here Pioli didn't say about the Chiefs when he was hired? Maybe it was a preemptive excuse, but it isn't new.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 12:22 PM
Is there anything here Pioli didn't say about the Chiefs when he was hired? Maybe it was a preemptive excuse, but it isn't new.

It kinda is. Pioli didn't come out at his press conference and say "oh man, we're kinda fucked right now so just sit back and relax while we suck."

keg in kc
03-22-2010, 12:36 PM
Sorry, Keg, the time was last year. And they ****ed last year up.

So far they are no better than all the other clowns that had the Chiefs swirling round the bowl.It's only ****ed up if you don't understand what last year was, which was the year to tear down the roster and assess what was left. And they still won twice as many games against a more difficult schedule. What were you expecting, really, in 2009? That they'd instantly turn a 2-14 team into a contender? If that's the case, then that's a failure on your part, not theirs. What else did you want? Sexier draft picks? Hell, two years from now the guys they picked-up may (or may not) be as good as anybody else out of that class, we have no way of knowing, and that's without even considering that the front office was working with one hand tied behind its collective back (read: Peterson's left-overs). Either way, who Tyson Jackson was in 2009 doesn't particularly matter; it's all about who Tyson Jackson is from 2011 and onward, and the same goes with all the rest of the picks.

Again, no sense of time. Everybody wants instant gratification when the reality is that it's going to take years.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 12:40 PM
It's only ****ed up if you don't understand what last year was, which was the year to tear down the roster and assess what was left..

And have a shitty draft?

And screw around with worthless players in free agency?

And hire coaches who are now gone?

And trade for a shitty quarterback?

Yeah, year one was just a year to assess....they didn't REALLY intend to accomplish anything....

Garbage.

And yes, Keg, it WAS a shitty draft. There's something to be said for being patient with players but when all of those players, save the kicker, show absolutely NOTHING and contribute in no meaningful way, there are clear warning signs. So don't sit there and act like we should all be patient and suddenly these guys will turn into All-Pros.

ChiefMojo
03-22-2010, 01:12 PM
GoChiefs knows what he is talking about and is smarter than Pioli... he writes for WPI.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 01:28 PM
GoChiefs knows what he is talking about and is smarter than Pioli... he writes for WPI.

Well hey, let's take a look at YOUR post history.

I'd much rather get Bomar or White over Sanchez. I'm still in the boat of Aaron Curry at #3.

For gosh sakes we haven't even got through fu%king FA or the draft yet! This football team is going to be completely different when it comes to quality vets here in a few months. Tony isn't going anywhere!

Umm, we have our QB of the future... his name is Matt Cassel! Stafford is likely gone to Detriot and at this moment Sanchez can't hold Cassel's jock and may never do so (I'm not a big Sanchez fan). There is absolutely no need to draft another QB early!

Aaron Curry is about the surest thing there is in this draft. He is the complete package when it comes to the LB spot.

I guess the fair thing to say is... is this defense good yet? Well no, but it is already a heck of a lot better than last season.

Looking at the schedule, we can still win 6-8 games.

Wade is Cassel's fav target. I think he feels he is the Chiefs Wes Welker.

Heck no we aren't the worst. The likes of the Rams, Bucs, and Browns are for sure worse than we are. I would argue we are on the equal footing of Oakland, Detroit, Seattle, Tennessee, and Washington's of the world.

I think Branden has a long successful future with KC, but I still have a feeling he may end up at either RT or LG in time.

Wow. You are a goddamn genius.

Pestilence
03-22-2010, 01:44 PM
Well hey, let's take a look at YOUR post history.

Wow. You are a goddamn genius.

ROFL

keg in kc
03-22-2010, 02:31 PM
And have a shitty draft?

And screw around with worthless players in free agency?

And hire coaches who are now gone?

And trade for a shitty quarterback?

Yeah, year one was just a year to assess....they didn't REALLY intend to accomplish anything....

Garbage.You're not answering any questions, you're just throwing out more hyperbole. Again, I'll ask what I did before: what did you expect to happen in 2009? What were your expectations?And yes, Keg, it WAS a shitty draft. There's something to be said for being patient with players but when all of those players, save the kicker, show absolutely NOTHING and contribute in no meaningful way, there are clear warning signs. So don't sit there and act like we should all be patient and suddenly these guys will turn into All-Pros.This is the problem when you get tunnel-vision, when you look at 2009 in a bubble. Success or failure, whether you're looking at the team as a whole or at a specific player, is not a matter of one year. Matt Cassel's success or failure is not yet decided, whether you like him or not (and I don't). Neither is Tyson Jackson's, or Alex Magee's, or Colin Brown's, or anybody else's. These guys have years to prove what kind of players they are, for good or ill. And the same's true of Pioli. He's got years to put this thing together; 2009 was just the first step down the path, and some of the moves that look like misses now may or may not turn out to be okay in the long run. There's no way to know.

Don't mistake this as confidence or optimism. It's not. It's just an acknowledgment of my own limits when it comes to reading tea leaves or crystal balls or any other forms of divination. I understand it's easier to just throw your arms up and scream bloody murder, rather than to see how it actually plays out.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 03:44 PM
You're not answering any questions, you're just throwing out more hyperbole. Again, I'll ask what I did before: what did you expect to happen in 2009? What were your expectations?

Not to suck ass? Seriously, pretty much everything we saw last year was a carbon copy of crap from the old regime.

You can sit here and preach "patience" as much as you want. But OTHER teams find impact players in the first year of a new regime. OTHER teams find rookies that contribute in some way in their first year.

It's nice to just sit there and say "anything can happen." You know what? That doesn't deal in reality. The reality is Pioli shit the bed last year. Because it doesn't MATTER what Tyson Jackson turns into. He's still going to be a five-tech when it's all said and done.

And that's why we're sitting here day after day this offseason, PRAYING that they take a player who will have a real impact.

FAX
03-22-2010, 03:53 PM
What the Chiefs are is a team that's been spiraling downwards for more than a decade - or "swirling 'round the bowl" as I like to put it. This is their 3rd complete rebuild in that time, and each one has involved a completely different approach to building a football team. They've gone from trying to retain the "glory" of the 90s (Gunther '99-'00) built around a defense that was already steadily declining, to trying to recapture the magical season the Rams had in '99 with a system Vermeil built around giving up picks for coaches and veteran players, to again building around defense with Edwards to now building around defense again, but with a drastically different scheme.

This has been one of the worst-managed franchises for years, as far as football goes. They've drafted poorly, they've never built a central core of talent, they've had little to no stability on the coaching staff, . That's where Pioli was starting from. And what he has to do is something their was a pretty lengthy article about during the coaching search last year (or was that even the GM search), when they were talking about how Clark wants to model the franchise around the Steelers. Not in terms of how they play, but how the organization as a whole is structured. They find the systems they want, which was apparently the 3-4 and a more pass-oriented offense, they find the coaches they want to execute that (which I think was Weis and Crennel all along), and then they stick with it...for years.

This has always been something that was going to take a while to turn around. 2009 was always the tear down and roster assessment year, sort of year 1a of the rebuild. 2010 is year 1b. If they're lucky they'll be competitive, although reality is they did win 4 games last year. Although on the other hand, they do play in one of the worst divisions in the game.

Fans are fickle. People are already turning on the 3-4, which is ironic after 10 years of hearing people talk about how they wanted the it. Now that they have it, they want the 4-3 again. I guess that's just how it goes; the grass is always greener. But what the franchise needs to do is stabilize, and that means Haley gets years to put it together. That means the defense doesn't change back to a 4-3 after a single year as a 3-4. Or two years. Or three. That means they stay on the course they're on.

Yep.

FAX

DaWolf
03-22-2010, 04:14 PM
You can sit here and preach "patience" as much as you want. But OTHER teams find impact players in the first year of a new regime. OTHER teams find rookies that contribute in some way in their first year.

That's a blanket statement that didn't really play out for "regime change" teams in 2009:

2008 Lions: 0-16
2009 Lions: 2-14

2008 Bucs: 9-7
2009 Bucs: 3-13

2008 Seahawks: 4-12
2009 Seahawks: 5-11

2008 Rams: 2-14
2009 Rams: 1-15

2008 Browns: 4-12
2009 Browns: 5-11

2008 Donx: 8-8
2009 Donx: 8-8

2008 Chiefs: 2-14
2009 Chiefs: 4-12

Sometimes teams catch lightning in a bottle and turn around quickly like the Falcons and Dolphins in '08, but it doesn't always happen so quickly, and due to many factors, be it the availability (or lack of) of impact talent in '09, the financial state of the game, personnel miscalculations, whatever it was, bad teams who went out and changed the guys running the team didn't really improve very much. The only two "bad" teams that really turned it around were Cincinnati and Green Bay, and both of those teams maintained stability in leadership...

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 04:26 PM
I'm not even talking about overall record.

There were a shit ton of teams last year who got more contribution from their rookie class than Ryan Succop the wonder leg.

Sitting here and saying "eh, the rookies didn't do much, but give them time" is being SOFT. We need to hold our front officers to a MUCH higher standard.

Just for comparison's sake, the Oakland Raiders had a shitty year and a fairly shitty draft. They still got decent production (35 catches, 4 TD) out of Louis Murphy and got 4 sacks out of Matt Shaughnessy.

Meanwhile the Chiefs draft guys like Donald Washington and Quinten Lawrence who are lucky to play in a game.

DaneMcCloud
03-22-2010, 04:28 PM
I'm not even talking about overall record.

There were a shit ton of teams last year who got more contribution from their rookie class than Ryan Succop the wonder leg.

Sitting here and saying "eh, the rookies didn't do much, but give them time" is being SOFT. We need to hold our front officers to a MUCH higher standard.

Just for comparison's sake, the Oakland Raiders had a shitty year and a fairly shitty draft. They still got decent production (35 catches, 4 TD) out of Louis Murphy and got 4 sacks out of Matt Shaughnessy.

Meanwhile the Chiefs draft guys like Donald Washington and Quinten Lawrence who are lucky to play in a game.

I took Murphy last year in the 4th.

Too bad it doesn't count.

DaneMcCloud
03-22-2010, 04:29 PM
Sometimes teams catch lightning in a bottle and turn around quickly like the Falcons and Dolphins in '08

The Dolphins? JFC, WHY would you include them?

It's been discussed to death but the Dolphins were smoke and mirrors. I said in January 2009 that they'd be LUCKY to be 8-8 last year and guess what?

They were 7-9.

ChiefMojo
03-22-2010, 04:30 PM
I never stated I was a genius like you do. Your a idiot that thinks you know football because your a hack that gets paid for a crappy website. You think your getting me riled up, but I'm just laughing at you. I'm waiting for your million come backs but in reality you know your hack like everyone else on here knows.

DaneMcCloud
03-22-2010, 04:32 PM
What the Chiefs are is a team that's been spiraling downwards for more than a decade - or "swirling 'round the bowl" as I like to put it. This is their 3rd complete rebuild in that time, and each one has involved a completely different approach to building a football team. They've gone from trying to retain the "glory" of the 90s (Gunther '99-'00) built around a defense that was already steadily declining, to trying to recapture the magical season the Rams had in '99 with a system Vermeil built around giving up picks for coaches and veteran players, to again building around defense with Edwards to now building around defense again, but with a drastically different scheme.

This has been one of the worst-managed franchises for years, as far as football goes. They've drafted poorly, they've never built a central core of talent, they've had little to no stability on the coaching staff, . That's where Pioli was starting from. And what he has to do is something their was a pretty lengthy article about during the coaching search last year (or was that even the GM search), when they were talking about how Clark wants to model the franchise around the Steelers. Not in terms of how they play, but how the organization as a whole is structured. They find the systems they want, which was apparently the 3-4 and a more pass-oriented offense, they find the coaches they want to execute that (which I think was Weis and Crennel all along), and then they stick with it...for years.

This has always been something that was going to take a while to turn around. 2009 was always the tear down and roster assessment year, sort of year 1a of the rebuild. 2010 is year 1b. If they're lucky they'll be competitive, although reality is they did win 4 games last year. Although on the other hand, they do play in one of the worst divisions in the game.

Fans are fickle. People are already turning on the 3-4, which is ironic after 10 years of hearing people talk about how they wanted the it. Now that they have it, they want the 4-3 again. I guess that's just how it goes; the grass is always greener. But what the franchise needs to do is stabilize, and that means Haley gets years to put it together. That means the defense doesn't change back to a 4-3 after a single year as a 3-4. Or two years. Or three. That means they stay on the course they're on.

That's all well and good but out of seven draft choices and 38 free agent acquisitions, the Chiefs were unable to find something they sorely lacked:

A game-changing, playmaking, difference maker.

Pioli can bring everyone that's even been associated with Parcell, Belichick and himself but until he drafts or signs some playmakers on both sides of the ball, this team will continue to falter.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 04:37 PM
I never stated I was a genius like you do. Your a idiot that thinks you know football because your a hack that gets paid for a crappy website. You think your getting me riled up, but I'm just laughing at you. I'm waiting for your million come backs but in reality you know your hack like everyone else on here knows.

Hey dumbfuck: football is not rocket science. This shit is obvious to anyone with half a brain. If you have less than half a brain, you think Bobby Wade is Wes Welker. You must have thought Lance Long was Steve Largent.

MTG#10
03-22-2010, 04:40 PM
I never stated I was a genius like you do. Your a idiot that thinks you know football because your a hack that gets paid for a crappy website. You think your getting me riled up, but I'm just laughing at you. I'm waiting for your million come backs but in reality you know your hack like everyone else on here knows.

Its you're, as in you are. If you're going to call someone out for being stupid at least learn to spell and use correct punctuation.

DaWolf
03-22-2010, 04:44 PM
I'm not even talking about overall record.

There were a shit ton of teams last year who got more contribution from their rookie class than Ryan Succop the wonder leg.

Sitting here and saying "eh, the rookies didn't do much, but give them time" is being SOFT. We need to hold our front officers to a MUCH higher standard.

Just for comparison's sake, the Oakland Raiders had a shitty year and a fairly shitty draft. They still got decent production (35 catches, 4 TD) out of Louis Murphy and got 4 sacks out of Matt Shaughnessy.

Meanwhile the Chiefs draft guys like Donald Washington and Quinten Lawrence who are lucky to play in a game.

No one is going to argue that anyone outside of the kicker made much of an impact last year. For impact in 2009, it was a bad draft. Do Jackson and Magee make an impact here in the next couple of years? They better. Linemen take longer to mature and I'm still not sure why the hell Krumrie was coaching these guys last year. That still doesn't mean there won't be production in the future from some of these guys. There better be.

If this becomes a recurring pattern, IE the 2009 draft is a bust and the 2010 draft provides nothing, then absolutely, a pattern will have been seen and there's really no way around it. He's gotta do better on this draft. If I recall, AJ Smith and the Chargers had a pretty bad draft in 2003, but have been pretty good from that point on, and Drew Brees went from being a bad QB to an all pro, sort of like Jamaal Charles went from being a fumbling 3rd down back to a dynamic force. Sometimes it takes a while for the light to come on with these guys.

But it still appears that 2009 was a bad year for whatever reason to have a quick turnaround with any team in the NFL...

DaWolf
03-22-2010, 04:47 PM
The Dolphins? JFC, WHY would you include them?

It's been discussed to death but the Dolphins were smoke and mirrors. I said in January 2009 that they'd be LUCKY to be 8-8 last year and guess what?

They were 7-9.

And I don't disagree at all, but keep in mind that was a 1-15 team. To even sniff 8 wins a year later, to me, is a good turnaround. Was their division championship a lot of smoke and mirrors? Absolutely. But it was nevertheless a heck of a turnaround for one year...

Mecca
03-22-2010, 04:51 PM
In 2003 San Diego picked 30th...not 3rd, there's a slight difference there. Of course that was after a trade down but they still did not have a top 5 pick.

keg in kc
03-22-2010, 04:52 PM
That's all well and good but out of seven draft choices and 38 free agent acquisitions, the Chiefs were unable to find something they sorely lacked:

A game-changing, playmaking, difference maker.

Pioli can bring everyone that's even been associated with Parcell, Belichick and himself but until he drafts or signs some playmakers on both sides of the ball, this team will continue to falter.I don't disagree with that. They do need playmakers. But the reality is, as I mentioned, that it's one offseason. And they need(ed) literally dozens of players across the board. I thought before they even started it was going to take three years to put the team together. Which doesn't mean that I'm saying last offseason was somehow unimportant or that it should be written off; the players they drafted last year have to be good. They have to be pieces of the puzzle, so to speak.

There have to be more this year, and eventually they have to add some playmakers to the bunch.

This is just my own (oft-stated) opinion, but I think the way the draft fell last year was primarily luck. Really, really bad luck. Because the Chiefs were in a position to draft a primetime player but, unfortunately for them, it was a draft without any, at least not once Stafford was off the board. I didn't want Sanchez any more than I wanted Cassel (and it's not because I'm shy about drafting a QB; I just didn't like Sanchez...). I didn't want Curry. Or Crabtree. I didn't want one of the offensive tackles after the way Albert played in 2008. I didn't want Orakpo (which may or may not be a mistake in the long run). I didn't want Jackson, either, but he actually fit exactly the kind of player I expected them to draft, so it didn't really come as any surprise. But, really, looking back at that list, what playmaker was there, especially if you look at it with April 2009 eyes...

I think this draft will ultimately be a lot more telling. And you won't find anybody more disappointed or disgusted than me if the first name called ends up being an offensive tackle. This is a much stronger class, and I think this draft as a whole is a better one, as deep as last year's was after you got past the weak-as-hell top of the first round. I think they have an opportunity to really land some talent, and they'll perhaps be more able to do so because they addressed some of the more workmanlike positions in 2009.

But that's just a guess...

Maybe in the end they'll just keep taking more linemen in every round.

Wilson8
03-22-2010, 04:53 PM
I didn't like KC's 2009 draft but Keg has a good point that all of these players are young and deserve some time to develop. Alex Magee is only 22 years old. Tyson Jackson and Donald Washington are also only 23.

I wish we would have seen more potential from all of these players last year but let's see what happens this coming season with them.

I was kind of concerned seeing all of the CBs the Chiefs have been interviewing that are projected to go in the 2nd round. That would mean that Donald Washington is the FAIL.

Mecca
03-22-2010, 04:53 PM
No matter what year it is you can not be missing on top 5 picks or trading for scrub QB's and act like you're building something for the long haul.

Dave Lane
03-22-2010, 05:01 PM
He did inherit a team with a young LT with possible upside, an unknown unused RB, a player who played like a #2 WR with the dropsies, a CB with all the upside in the world, a DT that had been underwhelming, one of the best TE that wanted out and was near retirement, and the 3rd and 34th overall picks.

Now, if you look at what those assets were spun into, it's not surprising it was underwhelming.

Here's what I know you meant to say :)

DaWolf
03-22-2010, 05:33 PM
I was kind of concerned seeing all of the CBs the Chiefs have been interviewing that are projected to go in the 2nd round. That would mean that Donald Washington is the FAIL.

Washington was one of those guys they drafted more on potential than production. He may end up amounting to nothing, but he also declared as an underclassman, so last year should have been his senior year. Hopefully he doesn't end up being a failure...

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-22-2010, 05:34 PM
He certainly brings piss and frustration to life on a daily basis.

MahiMike
03-22-2010, 07:16 PM
You can argue if it was Pioli or Belichick behind the magic curtain. But you can't argue with the fact that he knows 'the system' inside and out. I always admired how the Patriots got prima donas to become team players.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-22-2010, 07:23 PM
Here's what I know you meant to say :)

No.

Branden Albert handled Richard Seymour and Joey Porter thoroughly in his rookie year. You don't do that if you're not really talented.

Bowe's production was right in line with a future top 10 WR.

Charles had already shown game breaking ability and ungodly speed. There wasn't really much of a difference between he and Felix Jones running up to the 2008 draft, but people forget that.

Gonzalez was an "over the top" piece, and the one transaction it looks like Pioli absolutely nailed.

We had the #3 overall pick and #34 in what is looking like a pretty fucking underrated draft class..

ChiefsCountry
03-22-2010, 07:29 PM
We had the #3 overall pick and #34 in what is looking like a pretty ****ing underrated draft class..

With a fucking franchise QB sitting at #3. Thats the hardest pill to swallow.

DeezNutz
03-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Evaluation year. Get over it.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-22-2010, 07:31 PM
Evaluation year. Get over it.

"Rebuilding/Get Over It"

Mr. Flopnuts
03-22-2010, 07:37 PM
Well hey, let's take a look at YOUR post history.






Wow. You are a goddamn genius.

http://ilikedevouringbabies.tripod.com/pwned.jpg

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 07:46 PM
http://ilikedevouringbabies.tripod.com/pwned.jpg

Tripod doesn't allow hotlinking, n00b.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Tripod doesn't allow hotlinking, n00b.

Interesting. I can still see the pic. Nobody else can?

BossChief
03-22-2010, 07:48 PM
Im a tripod

ba doom pshhhhhh

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-22-2010, 07:53 PM
Im a tripod

ba doom pshhhhhh

I thought flop was referencing "Mini Me" for a moment there.

Chiefaholic
03-22-2010, 08:01 PM
I'de like to see the Chiefs Brass hire all the dipshits from Chiefsplanet who claim to know everything for ONE season. Then when they suck ass after one year, the remainder of us can tell them just how f***ing stupid they really are and have no business talking on an NFL message board.

You get one year b***hes... I want to be a legit contender by seasons end.

DeezNutz
03-22-2010, 08:03 PM
Do I get an "evaluation year" first?

That's industry standard, right?

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-22-2010, 08:13 PM
I'de like to see the Chiefs Brass hire all the dipshits from Chiefsplanet who claim to know everything for ONE season. Then when they suck ass after one year, the remainder of us can tell them just how f***ing stupid they really are and have no business talking on an NFL message board.

You get one year b***hes... I want to be a legit contender by seasons end.

I'll take the job, and pound some sense in to that bald head while teaching the bitch a new trick or two in the process, motherfucker!

Bring it! Bring that fucking contract, and do it YESTERDAY.

I ain't got another 40 years to bleed.

BossChief
03-22-2010, 08:13 PM
And yet the roster still had to be turned over.

Just like it does in Kansas City.

In fact, here are the seven starters Pioli inherited in Kansas City:

Charles, Flowers, Carr, Waters, Albert, Bowe and Dorsey.You forgot Hali.

I'de like to see the Chiefs Brass hire all the dipshits from Chiefsplanet who claim to know everything for ONE season. Then when they suck ass after one year, the remainder of us can tell them just how f***ing stupid they really are and have no business talking on an NFL message board.

You get one year b***hes... I want to be a legit contender by seasons end.

Dude, if one of us got the job, traded for a career backup and gave him a huge contract, signed a bunch of worthless players and had a fairly useless (or at least disappointing) draft we would be fired after one year.

What moves are you happy that Pioli made as being the highest paid GM in the NFL?

real talk

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-22-2010, 08:14 PM
Do I get an "evaluation year" first?

That's industry standard, right?

Fuck that shit! I don't even need THAT!

Bring that contract, you uppity motherfucker! Let's get it ON!

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 08:41 PM
You forgot Hali.


Yup, eight average to solid starters....ground zero indeed. Nothing to work with.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 08:45 PM
Honestly, you take Dane, Hamas, DeezNutz, OTWP and Mecca, put them in a room, and have them run a draft........they could easily do better than the pile of shit the Chiefs put together last year.

That's how bad it was.

DeezNutz
03-22-2010, 08:46 PM
Honestly, you take Dane, Hamas, DeezNutz, OTWP and Mecca, put them in a room, and have them run a draft........they could easily do better than the pile of shit the Chiefs put together last year.

That's how bad it was.

Thanks...I think?

LMAO.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 08:47 PM
Thanks...I think?

LMAO.

It's a stretch to say any group of fans could run a draft better than NFL front officers. But with what the Chiefs did last year....certainly a bunch of internet assclowns could improve upon it.

Take that as a compliment.

DeezNutz
03-22-2010, 09:02 PM
And I can't upload that as my sig why?

seaofred
03-22-2010, 09:07 PM
It's way to early to judge Pioli and co. 1st draft here. What if T. Jackson, and say Colin Brown become Pro Bowlers 2 or 3 years down the road... What will we say then. I'm just using Colin Brown as an example, but lets say they put him on IR with an "Injury" to keep him on the team... Instead of having another Lilja situation... I'm just saying there is more behind the scenes than we know..

milkman
03-22-2010, 10:30 PM
Washington was one of those guys they drafted more on potential than production. He may end up amounting to nothing, but he also declared as an underclassman, so last year should have been his senior year. Hopefully he doesn't end up being a failure...

The problem here is that this team needed production, not potential.

If your team is one that is already competing, then you can afford to use 4th round picks on projects.

But this team sucks ass.

A 4th rounder should be a contributor.

DaWolf
03-22-2010, 10:32 PM
The problem here is that this team needed production, not potential.

If your team is one that is already competing, then you can afford to use 4th round picks on projects.

But this team sucks ass.

A 4th rounder should be a contributor.

Absolutely, which is why guys like Washington and Colin Brown were head scratchers.

Marcellus
03-22-2010, 10:41 PM
It's a stretch to say any group of fans could run a draft better than NFL front officers. But with what the Chiefs did last year....certainly a bunch of internet assclowns could improve upon it.

Take that as a compliment.

Amazing how you can write off an entire draft class after 1 year.

1 and done.

BossChief
03-22-2010, 10:41 PM
Absolutely, which is why guys like Washington and Colin Brown were head scratchers.

the only pick that wasn't was Mr Succop

BossChief
03-22-2010, 10:43 PM
Amazing how you can write off an entire draft class after 1 year.

1 and done.

its not writing them off one bit. I'm pretty sure most of us feel that Tyson will develop into a good player, as will Magee...the problem is who we passed on to select them.

Its a lack of value comprehension, draft-wise.

Mecca
03-22-2010, 10:43 PM
What do you see from the class? Jackson can never justify his pick...then after that we have a bunch of blah mid rounders.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 10:43 PM
Amazing how you can write off an entire draft class after 1 year.

1 and done.

I'm not writing them off.

Doesn't look good, though.

Mecca
03-22-2010, 10:45 PM
Even if all those guys become their absolute peaks, it's still at best an ok draft class.

Count Alex's Wins
03-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Even if all those guys become their absolute peaks, it's still at best an ok draft class.

5-tech
5-tech
nickel corner
right guard
kick returner
running back
tight end
kicker

http://wrathofnino.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/yawn-380x540.jpg

BossChief
03-22-2010, 10:52 PM
***after GoChiefs post the suicide rate in Kansas City doubled in a matter of weeks***

Marcellus
03-22-2010, 10:59 PM
5-tech
5-tech
nickel corner
right guard
kick returner
running back
tight end
kicker

http://wrathofnino.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/yawn-380x540.jpg

If 3 of those 7 are solid contributors, it was a decent draft not an abortion.

It is easy to look afterward and say we should have done this or that. The draft is littered with failures.

That being said you can't do that every year and be successful. You have to hit on 1 or 2 good drafts to turn a team around.Then you have to be respectable. The Chiefs were turned around with just a few drafts, the rest were suspect.

The Colts, Patriots and Steelers haven't nailed every draft.

Mecca
03-22-2010, 11:00 PM
When you have the 3rd pick you should be pulling better than "decent draft"