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Chiefspants
03-23-2010, 12:21 PM
It's time to put the correct label on the modern conservative movement, but if all if you think I'm being sensationalist and out of line, than lets check the FACTS. Citing the infallible source of wikipedia, lets delve in to what fascists actually believed.

"Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement."

Conservatives believe differently, but not really, anybody remember the patriot act?

Strike one conservatives,


Next, "Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept."

OH HELL YEAH, This is the bread and butter of the conservative movement.

Strike two conservatives.


"In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism. This was to be achieved by establishing significant government control over business and labour."

Anybody remember the Bush bailout?

Strike three, conservatives, or should I say, fascists? And finally, on to the most damning evidence of all, we look at the chairman of the national republican committee.


Michael Stephen Steele


Take the fourth letter of his first name, the second letter of his first name, the second letter of his last name, the last letter in his first name and the last letter in his last name, and what do you get?


Hitle.

And if five letters out of Adolf's last name wasn't damning enough, let's take a gander at his wife's name.

Andrea Derritt Steele, So now, let us take the third letter of her middle name, and add that to the end of what we built with Michael's name, and see what we end up with.

Hitler.

It pained me to have to share this with you all, but the evidence is incontrovertible.


I apologize for being the bearer of such terrible news.

Cjanz
03-23-2010, 12:33 PM
What is this I don't even

FishingRod
03-23-2010, 12:49 PM
On the off chance that this is not some misguided attempt at humor.

IMO- The Republican party has lost its way. The Republican party I grew up with was more like the Libertarian party is today. Their setbacks in the house and Executive branch have in some ways at least reminded them of what they are supposed to stand for. Less government, more personal freedoms, less taxes that sort of thing. They lost their way not from being Fascist (though they certainly have gotten in the habit of pushing their version of morality) but from not being very different from the democratic party. The party trying to claim to be financially responsible did a miserable good under the Bush administration and needed an even more massive kick in the wallet by this Congress and this Administration to wake up just a little bit. I would imagine the percentage of United States citizens that in some way or form have their hand in the government trough has not got to be over 50%. That is a good way to buy votes. By the way Wikipedia kinda sucks.

Lets see.

"Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement."

Conservatives believe differently, but not really, anybody remember the patriot act?

Strike one conservatives.

Liberals believe differently but not really, Remember anyone who criticizes the President is a bigot.

Strike one Liberals

"Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept."

OH HELL YEAH, This is the bread and butter of the conservative movement.

Strike two conservatives.

Liberals promote class envy in painting successful companies and individuals as taking advantage of the have nots and promotes taking from those that have and giving to the have nots.

Strike two liberals.

Anybody remember the Bush bailouts?

Strike 3 Conservative

Anyone remember the stimulus package

Strike 3 Liberals.

Looks like both parties have stuck out. How about they take a decade or two off. I think we could do better.

Bearcat2005
03-23-2010, 01:06 PM
In the dichotomy of this discussion, lets distinguish the words Republican and Conservative, these are not interchangeable words. Secondly, fascism comes from many ideological perspectives. One can make the argument that through crony capitalist policies, along with attacks on civil liberties and undeclared wars abroad, that the Bush years were a step in that direction. However one can make the same argument with the broadening of executive powers, growth of federal economic control, the federal reserve policies redistributing wealth from poor to rich and the continuation of undeclared wars under the Obama administration as a step in that direction. So at this point we are left with the choice of which poison to take. I prefer neither :)

Taco John
03-23-2010, 01:11 PM
Conservatives didn't just vote to force people into the corrall gates of the insurance industry, so no, it's still the liberals who are the new fascists.

banyon
03-23-2010, 01:12 PM
Conservatives didn't just vote to force people into the corrall gates of the insurance industry, so no, it's still the liberals who are the new fascists.

Yeah. Hitler made sure the jews had an excellent health care plan. Good one.

Inspector
03-23-2010, 01:14 PM
In the stage play "Born Yesterday", Harry Brock sadly comments on his girlfriend Billy Dawn calling him a "Fascist"

"I don't understand" Harry says, "She knows I was born in New Jersey."

(Hey, that line got a huge laugh every performance.)

RaiderH8r
03-23-2010, 01:17 PM
Yeah. Hitler made sure the jews had an excellent health care plan. Good one.

Fascism usually starts out as moral presumption.

SNR
03-23-2010, 01:19 PM
Yeah. Hitler made sure the jews had an excellent health care plan. Good one.He wanted the COUNTRY to have an excellent healthcare plan. By country, I mean the Volk. Hitler never considered Jews to be German citizens, not even in 1933. From the very get go, they didn't count.

Taco John
03-23-2010, 01:45 PM
Yeah. Hitler made sure the jews had an excellent health care plan. Good one.

You are the Majesty of the Straw Man. You command a straw man argument like nobody I've ever known. I'm not sure what your point has to do with anything that I said, but go get that strawman boy!

Taco John
03-23-2010, 01:47 PM
If using government force to require people to purchase corporate goods or services against their will isn't fascism, then there is no such thing as fascism. This is a radical use of government. They are forcing an entire nation of people onto corporate insurance rolls. That's textbook fascism.

banyon
03-23-2010, 01:50 PM
He wanted the COUNTRY to have an excellent healthcare plan. By country, I mean the Volk. Hitler never considered Jews to be German citizens, not even in 1933. From the very get go, they didn't count.

Yeah, the racial superiority and treatment of minorities components are pretty central elements in fascism.

banyon
03-23-2010, 01:52 PM
If using government force to require people to purchase corporate goods or services against their will isn't fascism, then there is no such thing as fascism. This is a radical use of government. They are forcing people onto corporate insurance rolls.

Hear this? Every state insurance commisioner requiring you to have auto liability insurance = Hitler!

if that isn't fascism I don't know what is. :rolleyes: I don't know, how about something that meets the defintion for a start?

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Taco John
03-23-2010, 01:52 PM
Yeah, the racial superiority and treatment of minorities components are pretty central elements in fascism.


That's moronic. You are moronic.

Dave Lane
03-23-2010, 01:54 PM
Yes

Taco John
03-23-2010, 01:54 PM
Hear this? Every state insurance commisioner requiring you to have auto liability insurance = Hitler!

Wow! From zero to Strawman in 3.5 seconds flat!

Unfortunately, we already burned this strawman on this forum. Nice try, your majesty.

googlegoogle
03-23-2010, 01:54 PM
Yeah. Hitler made sure the jews had an excellent health care plan. Good one.

Brilliant reply.STFU

Cjanz
03-23-2010, 01:56 PM
You're all being trolled. Way to snatch up that bait.

Taco John
03-23-2010, 01:57 PM
Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives (i.e. forcing all of the nation (nationalism) onto corporatist insurance rolls); values; and systems such as the political system and the economy.

Inspector
03-23-2010, 02:01 PM
[QUOTE=banyon;6627361]Hear this? Every state insurance commisioner requiring you to have auto liability insurance = Hitler!

Yikes!

I know lots of people who do NOT have any auto insurance. At all. Not even liability.

They must be warned!!!

banyon
03-23-2010, 02:11 PM
Wow! From zero to Strawman in 3.5 seconds flat!

Unfortunately, we already burned this strawman on this forum. Nice try, your majesty.

It's not a strawman, it's an application of your absurdly proposed vague principle. Try explaining why it doesn't apply, instead of flailing up your arms and citing one of the few logical fallicies you pretend to understand.

banyon
03-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives (i.e. forcing all of the nation (nationalism) onto corporatist insurance rolls); values; and systems such as the political system and the economy.

Be honest. You just made this one up. A google search yielded no results.

Taco John
03-23-2010, 02:26 PM
Be honest. You just made this one up. A google search yielded no results.

You absolutely suck at the Internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)

banyon
03-23-2010, 03:24 PM
You absolutely suck at the Internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)

You mean this one:

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2][3][4] Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives; values; and systems such as the political system and the economy.[5][6] Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum,[7][8][9][10][11][12] although some scholars claim that fascism has been influenced by both the left and the right.[13][14]

?

Yeah, that was searchable. Your alterations were not.


Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives (i.e. forcing all of the nation (nationalism) onto corporatist insurance rolls); values; and systems such as the political system and the economy.

Part in RED generated out of whole cloth by Taco. Parts in BLUE, deleted by Taco, sans ellipsis.

Taco John
03-23-2010, 03:27 PM
So then we can clearly see that forcing all of the nation (nationalism) on corporatist insurance rolls is fascistic.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

banyon
03-23-2010, 03:31 PM
So then we can clearly see that forcing all of the nation (nationalism) on corporatist insurance rolls is fascistic.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Well, yeah, since you made up your own definition and tried to pass it off as legitimate. Sure, there's not much that isn't clear after that.

Hey everybody, I'm going to define fascist as follows:

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race (or NFL Team associations, particularly like the kind of fan groups of the Denver Broncos and people who run their internet message boards) above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition .

Wow, Taco, did you know you were a fascist? The "definition" is right there and everything.

Iowanian
03-23-2010, 03:32 PM
Facts are the last thing liberals would like to bring into the picture today.

As for suppressing argument, I'll suggest that Liberals just don't like any doses of the medicine they've been trying to give for the past decade thrown back their way.

Taco John
03-23-2010, 07:28 PM
Well, yeah, since you made up your own definition and tried to pass it off as legitimate. Sure, there's not much that isn't clear after that.


I didn't make up my own definition. I merely applied the one that already exists.

If using government force to fill the corporate rolls of insurance industries isn't fascistic, then nothing is.

I go by what Mussolini himself says on the subject:

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


There is absolutely no question that this insurance measure is fascistic, your highness. May your straw men burn to the ground, and your grip on reality allow you all the delusions you desire to fancy.

notorious
03-23-2010, 07:34 PM
Hear this? Every state insurance commisioner requiring you to have auto liability insurance = Hitler!




I have trouble understanding the correlation between Auto insurance and Health insurance.


Auto insurance = Affects people other then yourself

Health insurance = Affects just you

Not attacking you banyon, just asking why you compare the two.

Taco John
03-23-2010, 07:36 PM
Not that Banyon would acknowledge the founding father of fascism's definition. This isn't the first time he's been owned on this point.

petegz28
03-23-2010, 08:10 PM
I see the Left is in full blown defensive mode right now.

petegz28
03-23-2010, 08:11 PM
Hear this? Every state insurance commisioner requiring you to have auto liability insurance = Hitler!

if that isn't fascism I don't know what is. :rolleyes: I don't know, how about something that meets the defintion for a start?

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition


They only require you to have the insurance if you choose to drive.

googlegoogle
03-23-2010, 08:23 PM
<table class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody id="collapseobj_usercp_reputation" style=""><tr><td class="alt2">http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif</td> <td class="alt1Active" id="p66273706081" width="50%"> Are conservatives the... (http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=6627370#post6627370) </td> <td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">03-23-2010 04:35 PM</td> <td class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"> banyon (http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/member.php?u=6081) </td> <td class="alt2" width="50%">Stupid neg rep, as is the attempt to slander everything you don't like as "fascist".</td></tr></tbody></table>

banyon
03-24-2010, 08:35 AM
I didn't make up my own definition. I merely applied the one that already exists.

If using government force to fill the corporate rolls of insurance industries isn't fascistic, then nothing is.

I go by what Mussolini himself says on the subject:

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


There is absolutely no question that this insurance measure is fascistic, your highness. May your straw men burn to the ground, and your grip on reality allow you all the delusions you desire to fancy.

Why didn't you use that definition in the first place then instead of trying to jam one together awkwardly yourself?

In any event Mussolini's comment is not really intended as a full definition, as it just describes one element of the ideology. It is reminiscent of BEP stretching out the ten planks of the Communist manifesto like "Aha! Public Education! We are Stalinist!".

Also, what is "the merger of state and corporate power" to you? Any government policy favoring corporations? You realize that private insurance companies will continue to exist with private equity holdings and board control, right?

banyon
03-24-2010, 08:38 AM
I have trouble understanding the correlation between Auto insurance and Health insurance.


Auto insurance = Affects people other then yourself

Health insurance = Affects just you

Not attacking you banyon, just asking why you compare the two.

I have made that correlation in the past, but am not making it in this thread. I'm just applying Taco's axiom "Government requiring people to purchase things= fascism" and showing how silly it is.

Taco John
03-24-2010, 08:43 AM
Why didn't you use that definition in the first place then instead of trying to jam one together awkwardly yourself?

I didn't. I used the wikipedia definition which was essentially the same one as Mussolini used, and applied that definition with my parenthetical commentary. I'm completely tickled that you started doing gymnastics around this definition, embarassing yourself along the way.


In any event Mussolini's comment is not really intended as a full definition, as it just describes one element of the ideology.

Yes, of course. Mussolini didn't mean what he said, that's about the best I figured you'd be able to do. I suppose you thought this meager attempt would work? What Mussolini describes is the core essence of fascism. While it's true that they had other cultural elements that made their form of fascism unique to their culture, they're hardly worth mentioning in this discussion.



Also, what is "the merger of state and corporate power" to you? Any government policy favoring corporations? You realize that private insurance companies will continue to exist with private equity holdings and board control, right?


The merger of state and corporate power? I would say ****ING FORCING PEOPLE TO BUY MOTHER****ING PRODUCTS OR SERVICES COUNTS YOU DUMB MOTHER ****ER!

Sorry. I can only handle your 'play dumb" act for so long before it wears on me. You're not this stupid, even if you're this dishonest. Eventually intellect has to kick in and override dishonesty.

banyon
03-24-2010, 09:10 AM
I didn't. I used the wikipedia definition which was essentially the same one as Mussolini used, and applied that definition with my parenthetical commentary. I'm completely tickled that you started doing gymnastics around this definition, embarassing yourself along the way.

I did mental gymanstics? I'm not the one who tried to pass off my desired comment as objectively supported. This is your post hoc attempt to rationalize it, and it's not particularly compelling.




Yes, of course. Mussolini didn't mean what he said, that's about the best I figured you'd be able to do. I suppose you thought this meager attempt would work? What Mussolini describes is the core essence of fascism. While it's true that they had other cultural elements that made their form of fascism unique to their culture, they're hardly worth mentioning in this discussion.

I disagree in the strongest possible terms. The holocaust, racial prejudice, systematic dictatorial rule, and belligerent foreign policy are all "worth mentioning" in connection with fascism. Without them, basically you describe a plutocracy, which is what you normally want to advocate enabling anyway.



The merger of state and corporate power? I would say ****ING FORCING PEOPLE TO BUY MOTHER****ING PRODUCTS OR SERVICES COUNTS YOU DUMB MOTHER ****ER!

Sorry. I can only handle your 'play dumb" act for so long before it wears on me. You're not this stupid, even if you're this dishonest. Eventually intellect has to kick in and override dishonesty.

Great way to address the question like a 5 year old infant. Let me know when you actually understand the question that I asked. Try reading it again.

The Mad Crapper
03-24-2010, 09:18 AM
I didn't. I used the wikipedia definition which was essentially the same one as Mussolini used, and applied that definition with my parenthetical commentary. I'm completely tickled that you started doing gymnastics around this definition, embarassing yourself along the way.




:clap:

CHIEF4EVER
03-24-2010, 09:41 AM
I find it humorous that uneducated people try to portray Facism as a right wing concept when it is the exact opposite. LMAO

Fascism (a form of Socialism) and Nazism (National SOCIALISM) are socialist concepts and thus extreme LEFT wing just as Communism is.

Taco John
03-24-2010, 09:49 AM
I disagree in the strongest possible terms. The holocaust, racial prejudice, systematic dictatorial rule, and belligerent foreign policy are all "worth mentioning" in connection with fascism. Without them, basically you describe a plutocracy, which is what you normally want to advocate enabling anyway.

I certainly understand that you conflate the holocaust and fascism. But the holocaust had little to do with fascism. Mussolini's adoption of Hitler's policy on Jews was just part of the deal-making, ignoring human rights in order to win favor with the Fuhrer. The rest, however, is mere cultural differences, and some in America would say that these elements exist here in America, so the distinctions that you are trying to draw fall short of actually being distinctions.

But I like that you've gone so far as admitting that this measure only further solidify's the plutocracy of the insurance industry over us. You've basically conceeded the point without understanding that you've done as much.

Mussolini wasn't being flip when he defined fascism as the mereger of state and corporate interests. Your attempts to conflate the essence of fascism will ultimately hit the brick wall of Mussolini's own definition.

This new bill embodies fascism in America. The American people have been offered up like property to the Insurance industry, in exchange for their buy off on this health plan. This is why it's left to the states to push the legal challenges, rather than seeing the insurance industry doing it. They got what they wanted.

Great way to address the question like a 5 year old infant. Let me know when you actually understand the question that I asked. Try reading it again.

I'm not going to entertain your "play dumb" demeanor.

Taco John
03-24-2010, 09:52 AM
I find it humorous that uneducated people try to portray Facism as a right wing concept when it is the exact opposite. LMAO

Fascism (a form of Socialism) and Nazism (National SOCIALISM) are socialist concepts and thus extreme LEFT wing just as Communism is.



Exactly. Fascism is the type of Socialism where the industry controls the government as much as the government controls the industry. They make their deals, and the people are treated like property. It has nothing to do with racial predjudice. That's just a cultural tag-along.

banyon
03-24-2010, 10:18 AM
Exactly. Fascism is the type of Socialism where the industry controls the government as much as the government controls the industry. They make their deals, and the people are treated like property. It has nothing to do with racial predjudice. That's just a cultural tag-along.

Here's a question to pose to you "educated" geniouses:

What does a "far-right" concept government look like?

NewChief
03-24-2010, 10:21 AM
I know that I'm never going to get the new right revisionist to agree with me, but Fascism is, historically, seen as a movement of the Right. It's nationalistic in origin and is a sort of hyper-capitalism. It does not, in any way, seek to break down capitalism, which is what leftist/communism seeks. Read Trotsky's writings on the subject if you want to see how fascists were viewed by the Left.

That being said, I know that TJ and the others are using the big government/small government dichotomy between left and right, so we're not going to come to agreement.

banyon
03-24-2010, 10:23 AM
I certainly understand that you conflate the holocaust and fascism. But the holocaust had little to do with fascism. Mussolini's adoption of Hitler's policy on Jews was just part of the deal-making, ignoring human rights in order to win favor with the Fuhrer. The rest, however, is mere cultural differences, and some in America would say that these elements exist here in America, so the distinctions that you are trying to draw fall short of actually being distinctions.

But I like that you've gone so far as admitting that this measure only further solidify's the plutocracy of the insurance industry over us. You've basically conceeded the point without understanding that you've done as much.

Mussolini wasn't being flip when he defined fascism as the mereger of state and corporate interests. Your attempts to conflate the essence of fascism will ultimately hit the brick wall of Mussolini's own definition.

This new bill embodies fascism in America. The American people have been offered up like property to the Insurance industry, in exchange for their buy off on this health plan. This is why it's left to the states to push the legal challenges, rather than seeing the insurance industry doing it. They got what they wanted.

Fascism has historical connotations and it (despite your ridiculous claims to the contrary) involves more than just corporatism. If you understood what necessary and sufficient conditions are, i might try to put it to you that way, but instead, I'll just say, that your feigned indignation and "analysis" here fails to distinguish plutocracy from corporatism, and is therefore an inviable concept as you have vaguely envisioned it. Once again, Taco wants to paint with a broad brush things he doesn't like and doesn't want to look back and see what else got painted over in his haste to brand new enemies.



I'm not going to entertain your "play dumb" demeanor.


no kidding you don't want to address it. If i'd made such a vague indefensible claim too, i'd want to pretend that the other party was "playing dumb" or whatever. It's a pretty simple question I posed. Does any corporate favoritism = corporatism? If not, how do you distinguish them? if you can't understand those basic distinctions, then it's understandable why you'd want to stick your fingers in your ears and hum.

banyon
03-24-2010, 10:24 AM
I find it humorous that uneducated people try to portray Facism as a right wing concept when it is the exact opposite. LMAO

Fascism (a form of Socialism) and Nazism (National SOCIALISM) are socialist concepts and thus extreme LEFT wing just as Communism is.

Why do you think that the Communists and Fascists were bitter ideological and actual enemies then, if they agreed on everything (which they most certainly didn't).

prhom
03-24-2010, 11:41 AM
I always like to keep the Nolan chart in mind (check it out on Wikipedia) as I think it makes these kinds of arguments look pretty silly. Democrats, republicans, liberals, or conservatives are NOT complete definitions of a person's political views. Most people aren't completely in one corner of the chart. In response to the OP, yes there probably are some people who call themselves "conservative" that would have fascist leanings. You can also have a "liberal" who tends toward the same ideas. If you imagine someone who's ideals fall in the very center of the chart it's easy to see that you couldn't put them in one corner or the other. Sometimes they'd sound like a liberal, sometimes like a conservative.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-24-2010, 11:42 AM
On the off chance that this is not some misguided attempt at humor.

IMO- The Republican party has lost its way. The Republican party I grew up with was more like the Libertarian party is today. Their setbacks in the house and Executive branch have in some ways at least reminded them of what they are supposed to stand for. Less government, more personal freedoms, less taxes that sort of thing. They lost their way not from being Fascist (though they certainly have gotten in the habit of pushing their version of morality) but from not being very different from the democratic party. The party trying to claim to be financially responsible did a miserable good under the Bush administration and needed an even more massive kick in the wallet by this Congress and this Administration to wake up just a little bit. I would imagine the percentage of United States citizens that in some way or form have their hand in the government trough has not got to be over 50%. That is a good way to buy votes. By the way Wikipedia kinda sucks.

Lets see.

"Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement."

Conservatives believe differently, but not really, anybody remember the patriot act?

Strike one conservatives.

Liberals believe differently but not really, Remember anyone who criticizes the President is a bigot.

Strike one Liberals

"Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept."

OH HELL YEAH, This is the bread and butter of the conservative movement.

Strike two conservatives.

Liberals promote class envy in painting successful companies and individuals as taking advantage of the have nots and promotes taking from those that have and giving to the have nots.

Strike two liberals.

Anybody remember the Bush bailouts?

Strike 3 Conservative

Anyone remember the stimulus package

Strike 3 Liberals.

Looks like both parties have stuck out. How about they take a decade or two off. I think we could do better.

:clap: Fuckin' A.

Dottefan
03-24-2010, 12:38 PM
Keep America safe..deport all Republicans.

Taco John
03-24-2010, 12:43 PM
I know that I'm never going to get the new right revisionist to agree with me, but Fascism is, historically, seen as a movement of the Right.

This ignores a lot of scholars who have made arguments to the opposite. Personally, I don't see what it matters whether it's considered "leftist" or "rightist." I see fascism as an unholy marraige of the two, allowing both of them to achieve the dominance of their social and financial ideas at the expense of the people, who are used as a bargaining chip between the two forces.

It's nationalistic in origin and is a sort of hyper-capitalism. It does not, in any way, seek to break down capitalism, which is what leftist/communism seeks.

Yes. You just described the bill that was just signed into law.


That being said, I know that TJ and the others are using the big government/small government dichotomy between left and right, so we're not going to come to agreement.

You're wrong. I agree with what you have said - hyper-capitalism and all that. But instead of "hyper-capitalism" I would use the word "government forced" or "fascism" to mean the same thing.

Dottefan
03-24-2010, 12:46 PM
DC LOUNGE IS NOW KNOWN AS DOTTEFAN LOUNGE....WE OWN IT..

Taco John
03-24-2010, 12:46 PM
Does any corporate favoritism = corporatism?


Yes. But it doesn't become fascism until it's systematic. This bill is systematic. It is fascism.

Dottefan
03-24-2010, 12:47 PM
DC LOUNGE IS NOW KNOWN AS DOTTEFAN LOUNGE....WE OWN IT..

NewChief
03-24-2010, 01:38 PM
This ignores a lot of scholars who have made arguments to the opposite. Personally, I don't see what it matters whether it's considered "leftist" or "rightist." I see fascism as an unholy marraige of the two, allowing both of them to achieve the dominance of their social and financial ideas at the expense of the people, who are used as a bargaining chip between the two forces.



Yes. You just described the bill that was just signed into law.




You're wrong. I agree with what you have said - hyper-capitalism and all that. But instead of "hyper-capitalism" I would use the word "government forced" or "fascism" to mean the same thing.

Well holy shit. We agree on pretty much all of this. ;)

penchief
03-24-2010, 04:27 PM
I see that several people on this board need to go back to school. Not only do they not understand that the Nazis were on the extreme right but they don't understand the definitions of fascism or nationalism.

Why is it that claims of fascism being a liberal affliction has only become a recent phenomenon? Why is that for decades it has always been associated with the right? And notice I didn't say anything about conservatives. Extreme right wing views (Naziism/fascism, etc.) have nothing to do with being conservative.

I'll tell you why it's a recent phenomenon. Because about halfway through Bush's eight years people started to realize that there were some real fascist tendencies in the way the government was behaving (militarism, nationalism, government secrecy, stifling of dissent, invasion of privacy, government/corporate ties, erosion of civil liberties, etc.).

So in order to preemptively discredit the backlash that they knew was coming against Bush policies they decided to start calling liberal ideals fascist. All these far righties who have jumped on the Jonah Goldberg bandwagon are just diverting attention away from the fact that their policies and ideologies have been abject failures by projecting their failure on to their political antithesis.

Taco John
03-24-2010, 05:05 PM
This bill represents fascism in America.

Dottefan
03-24-2010, 05:07 PM
This bill represents fascism in America.

But if Obama was white..you wouldnt feel this way I bet.