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View Full Version : Economics Krauthamer "Obama to propose European type vat tax"


googlegoogle
03-24-2010, 02:47 PM
Heard him twice mention this. This is to pay for his expensive welfare bill.
Your thoughts?

BigRedChief
03-24-2010, 02:49 PM
What expensive welfare bill?

CoMoChief
03-24-2010, 02:50 PM
JFC......yea!!!! More welfare to people who don't deserve it.

ChiefaRoo
03-24-2010, 02:50 PM
Heard him twice mention this. This is to pay for his expensive welfare bill.
Your thoughts?

Thoughts? I want America to Skull fu** the Dems out of existence at the ballot box beginning in Nov.

HonestChieffan
03-24-2010, 03:26 PM
I have believed all along that a VAT was in the wings. I have no doubt this will be looked at and likely enacted.

Brainiac
03-24-2010, 03:33 PM
A VAT is the most insidious tax of all. You don't see it. It's hidden in the price of everything that you buy. At least when you pay your income taxes you KNOW exactly how much the government is taking from you. A VAT changes all of that. The government is free to adjust the tax upward any time it wants, and you don't see it. You don't get a W-2 or a 1099 with the taxes clearly shown. You just pay and pay and pay.

Obama is relentless, you've got to give him that. He is determined to raise taxes every way that he can.

It's surprising in a way that Obama would embrace a VAT since a VAT is a very regressive tax, and his constituency would have to actually pay the tax instead of passing it on to the rich bastards. I guess the lesson here is that Obama never met a tax he didn't like.

CoMoChief
03-24-2010, 03:37 PM
Change......that's what will be left in your wallet.

-Barack Obama-

BucEyedPea
03-24-2010, 03:44 PM
A VAT is the most insidious tax of all. You don't see it. It's hidden in the price of everything that you buy. At least when you pay your income taxes you KNOW exactly how much the government is taking from you. A VAT changes all of that. The government is free to adjust the tax upward any time it wants, and you don't see it. You don't get a W-2 or a 1099 with the taxes clearly shown. You just pay and pay and pay.

Obama is relentless, you've got to give him that. He is determined to raise taxes every way that he can.

It's surprising in a way that Obama would embrace a VAT since a VAT is a very regressive tax, and his constituency would have to actually pay the tax instead of passing it on to the rich bastards. I guess the lesson here is that Obama never met a tax he didn't like.

If that's so, then we already pay hundreds of them.

BucEyedPea
03-24-2010, 03:44 PM
Is there a link for this claim?

Brainiac
03-24-2010, 03:55 PM
Is there a link for this claim?
What are characterizing as a "claim"? That the government can revise a VAT upward whenever it wants (it can), that a VAT is insidious because the tax that you pay is hidden in the price of the product (it is), or that Obama never met a tax that he doesn't like? (I think it's pretty clear that he does.)

If you're not familiar with a Value Added Tax, I suppose I can Google it for you (http://tinyurl.com/yhg9rb4).

A Value Added Tax has always been a horrible idea, regardless of whether Obama proposes it or if some Republicans propose it and call it "The Fair Tax".

Brainiac
03-24-2010, 03:57 PM
Here is a link to a pretty good article about VATs: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/01/Value-Added-Tax-No-Easy-Fix-for-the-Deficit

BucEyedPea
03-24-2010, 03:58 PM
What are characterizing as a "claim"? That the government can revise a VAT upward whenever it wants (it can), that a VAT is insidious because the tax that you pay is hidden in the price of the product (it is), or that Obama never met a tax that he doesn't like? (I think it's pretty clear that he does.)

If you're not familiar with a Value Added Tax, I suppose I can Google it for you (http://tinyurl.com/yhg9rb4).

A Value Added Tax has always been a horrible idea, regardless of whether Obama proposes it or if some Republicans propose it and call it "The Fair Tax".

The claim that Obama is going to do this is what I was referring to. There's no link to the statement in the OP.

No I know what a VAT is. So please, spare me the snarky condescension. I said to the Fair Tax people years ago, the govt will seize the idea and add a VAT instead of replacing the income tax. As far as added onto things, that's true right now as taxes get passed along at each stage of production just with an income tax. Things like a loaf of bread have hundreds of taxes already in the final cost.

I hate this idea. And as loony as many think he is, Ron Paul, is the only one with the guts to reverse all this recent junk.

Brainiac
03-24-2010, 04:02 PM
The claim that Obama is going to do this is what I was referring to. There's no link to the statement in the OP.

No I know what a VAT is. So please, spare me the snarky condescension. I said to the Fair Tax people years ago, the govt will seize the idea and add a VAT instead of replacing the income tax. As far as added onto things, that's true right now as taxes get passed along at each stage of production just with an income tax. Things like a loaf of bread have hundreds of taxes already in the final cost.

I hate this idea. And as loony as many think he is, Ron Paul, is the only one with the guts to reverse all this recent junk.
Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I apologize for the snarky condescension.

orange
03-24-2010, 04:07 PM
The claim that Obama is going to do this is what I was referring to. There's no link to the statement in the OP.

I heard this. It was in a panel discussion on O'Reilly's show about what passing the health care bill means down the line.

Krauthammer said that he expects the Deficit Reduction Commission report after the election to recommend a VAT. There's no actual proposal, though.

alnorth
03-24-2010, 04:10 PM
"Obama to propose European type vat tax"

Prove it. Why do you want thoughts on something that wont happen?

You could just as easily post "Hunts to sell Chiefs to group who want to move team to LA. Thoughts?"

Chief Henry
03-24-2010, 04:12 PM
Heard him twice mention this. This is to pay for his expensive welfare bill.
Your thoughts?

I saw it late last night. It was on the fair and balanced network. I'm surprised
Orange was turning in. Just goes to show that even the socialist watch Fox News for fair and balanced coverage.

Brainiac
03-24-2010, 04:15 PM
At least the Dems lost their supermajority and VAT legislation could be filibustered until it dies a slow and painful death.

BucEyedPea
03-24-2010, 04:17 PM
I saw it late last night. It was on the fair and balanced network. I'm surprised
Orange was turning in. Just goes to show that even the socialist watch Fox News for fair and balanced coverage.

:D

HonestChieffan
03-24-2010, 04:18 PM
At least the Dems lost their supermajority and VAT legislation could be filibustered until it dies a slow and painful death.

I believe they will use any means even reconciliation to pass all they can before November. These people do not care and they will stop at nothing.

fan4ever
03-24-2010, 04:19 PM
Prove it. Why do you want thoughts on something that wont happen?

You could just as easily post "Hunts to sell Chiefs to group who want to move team to LA. Thoughts?"

Hunt's moving the Chiefs!?

BucEyedPea
03-24-2010, 04:22 PM
I believe they will use any means even reconciliation to pass all they can before November. These people do not care and they will stop at nothing.

Over at Lew's they're talking how they're not going to stop at healthcare. We're being communized from within. Overthrow of our form of govt right before our eyes. Yet these guys wailed about Bush calling the Constitution "just a piece of paper!" Well guess what? That's what some of their guys have been saying....there are "no rules." They mean it literally!

There was even a progressive private meeting where Schumer and Reid discussed doing away with Constitutional principles, even the Bill of Rights, with just a simple majority vote. They're commies.

orange
03-24-2010, 04:22 PM
I saw it late last night. It was on the fair and balanced network. I'm surprised
Orange was turning in. Just goes to show that even the socialist watch Fox News for fair and balanced coverage.

Don't get your hopes up too high. I saw it on a website - mediamatters probably. I haven't even taken my tv out of storage this year.

patteeu
03-24-2010, 04:29 PM
The claim that Obama is going to do this is what I was referring to. There's no link to the statement in the OP.

No I know what a VAT is. So please, spare me the snarky condescension. I said to the Fair Tax people years ago, the govt will seize the idea and add a VAT instead of replacing the income tax. As far as added onto things, that's true right now as taxes get passed along at each stage of production just with an income tax. Things like a loaf of bread have hundreds of taxes already in the final cost.

I hate this idea. And as loony as many think he is, Ron Paul, is the only one with the guts to reverse all this recent junk.

I don't have a link, but I saw Krauthammer predict it on Bret Baier's show on Monday or Tuesday. It's just a prediction at this point. As Orange said, he expects the Deficit Reduction Commission to propose it. It wasn't clear whether he was basing his prediction on discussions with the commission members or just taking an educated guess.

patteeu
03-24-2010, 04:33 PM
Prove it. Why do you want thoughts on something that wont happen?

You could just as easily post "Hunts to sell Chiefs to group who want to move team to LA. Thoughts?"

JFC I expect this type of overly defensive reaction from the obots around here. What's there to prove anyway? Krauthammer definitely predicted it.

alnorth
03-24-2010, 04:36 PM
I don't have a link, but I saw Krauthammer predict it on Bret Baier's show on Monday or Tuesday. It's just a prediction at this point. He expects the bipartisan commission appointed by Obama to propose ways to address the Obama deficits to come back with this proposal. It wasn't clear whether he was basing his prediction on discussions with the commission members or just taking an educated guess.

Its fine if a bunch of eggheads sitting around a table brainstorming how to get out of debt suggests it, as long as our leaders smile, pat them on the head, say "nice try", and ignore their advice.

If our elected political leaders start seriously talking about a VAT, there will be a holy war. I do not believe there is any way that even the Democrats could scrounge up majority support within their own caucus, much less unite behind it.

Brainiac
03-24-2010, 04:36 PM
I believe they will use any means even reconciliation to pass all they can before November. These people do not care and they will stop at nothing.
I agree that they don't care and will stop at nothing. However, unless they have some other trick up their sleeves, they can't use the reconciliation process to bypass a filibuster on new legislation such as a VAT. Reconciliation only applies to bills that they've managed to pass through both houses already.

alnorth
03-24-2010, 04:37 PM
JFC I expect this type of overly defensive reaction from the obots around here. What's there to prove anyway? Krauthammer definitely predicted it.

fine, I predict that the Hunts are going to move the chiefs. I heard my neighbor's best friend with secret connections in the chiefs management talk about it, its a done deal. They will announce it after the end of next season, trust me.

Chief Henry
03-24-2010, 04:39 PM
I agree that they don't care and will stop at nothing. However, unless they have some other trick up their sleeves, they can't use the reconciliation process to bypass a filibuster on new legislation such as a VAT. Reconciliation only applies to bills that they've managed to pass through both houses already.

This group in power will stop at nothing to do what ever the hell they want.

patteeu
03-24-2010, 04:42 PM
fine, I predict that the Hunts are going to move the chiefs. I heard my neighbor's best friend with secret connections in the chiefs management talk about it, its a done deal. They will announce it after the end of next season, trust me.

OK. Does your neighbor's best friend know anything about the Chiefs' draft plans or are they just hooked up with business-side info?

patteeu
03-24-2010, 04:46 PM
Its fine if a bunch of eggheads sitting around a table brainstorming how to get out of debt suggests it, as long as our leaders smile, pat them on the head, say "nice try", and ignore their advice.

If our elected political leaders start seriously talking about a VAT, there will be a holy war. I do not believe there is any way that even the Democrats could scrounge up majority support within their own caucus, much less unite behind it.

I hope you're right, but I'm not as confident as you are. If they describe it as a business tax and design it in a way that doesn't show up at all for the consumer (e.g. a line item on the receipt like sales tax), they'll have class warriors cheering the way that businesses are finally being asked to pay their fair share, without realizing that it's really a tax on domestic consumers.

Brainiac
03-24-2010, 05:07 PM
I hope you're right, but I'm not as confident as you are. If they describe it as a business tax and design it in a way that doesn't show up at all for the consumer (e.g. a line item on the receipt like sales tax), they'll have class warriors cheering the way that businesses are finally being asked to pay their fair share, without realizing that it's really a tax on domestic consumers.
That's a sad commentary on the intelligence of the voters these days. Unfortunately it's true.

RJ
03-24-2010, 05:18 PM
I heard Obama is the Anti-Christ.

Thoughts?

patteeu
03-24-2010, 05:19 PM
I heard Obama is the Anti-Christ.

Thoughts?

Isn't it obvious?

mlyonsd
03-24-2010, 05:22 PM
I heard Obama is the Anti-Christ.

Thoughts?

Since he's also related to Dick Cheney I don't understand liberals having a problem with this title.

Der Flöprer
03-24-2010, 05:27 PM
I love how everyone is so quick to jump on welfare recipients. I mean, we're all slaves, why shouldn't they be too? I think people are just pissed because they hate their own life, why shouldn't everyone else do it too?

You want to know where the money problems in this country lie, look at the top. Corporate welfare is a helluva lot more expensive than those bitches with 7 kids collecting $1000 a month in food, cash, and subsidized housing.

ChiTown
03-24-2010, 05:29 PM
Are we really supposed to be surprised if this actually happens. How did anyone think we were going to repay the $1T dollars this healthcare plan is going to cost?

Get real, MF'rs, we're all working for the govt now.

mlyonsd
03-24-2010, 05:32 PM
Are we really supposed to be surprised if this actually happens. How did anyone think we were going to repay the $1T dollars this healthcare plan is going to cost?

Get real, MF'rs, we're all working for the govt now.

Yeah baby. I anxiously peak into the mailbox every night looking for my beer invite to the WH.

patteeu
03-24-2010, 06:06 PM
I love how everyone is so quick to jump on welfare recipients. I mean, we're all slaves, why shouldn't they be too? I think people are just pissed because they hate their own life, why shouldn't everyone else do it too?

You want to know where the money problems in this country lie, look at the top. Corporate welfare is a helluva lot more expensive than those bitches with 7 kids collecting $1000 a month in food, cash, and subsidized housing.

Huh? The only welfare recipients that I remember anyone jumping on in this thread are those who "don't deserve it". Surely you don't object to that.

The bottom line for me is that we're spending too much money on all forms of welfare. We're moving further away from a social safety net to a system of redistributed wealth that saps our population's drive and corrupts our sense of private property. Equally as bad is the pall of class warfare that has descended upon us from the demagogues running our country (and I'm no fan of the populism rising from the grassroots on both the right and left either).

Dottefan
03-24-2010, 06:06 PM
Isn't it obvious?

If he was white I doubt any of you guys would feel this way.

CoMoChief
03-24-2010, 06:11 PM
I love how everyone is so quick to jump on welfare recipients. I mean, we're all slaves, why shouldn't they be too? I think people are just pissed because they hate their own life, why shouldn't everyone else do it too?

You want to know where the money problems in this country lie, look at the top. Corporate welfare is a helluva lot more expensive than those bitches with 7 kids collecting $1000 a month in food, cash, and subsidized housing.

Bitches with 7 kids living in subsidized housing living off the govt do NOTHING in giving back to society what-so-ever.

At least coporations provide millions of jobs to people.

CoMoChief
03-24-2010, 06:13 PM
If he was white I doubt any of you guys would feel this way.

Hillary Clinton is ALMOST just as horribly radically left as BO is. So don't hold your breath on that, Jerome.

I'd always figured that we would have a black president before a woman one.

Dottefan
03-24-2010, 06:16 PM
Hillary Clinton is ALMOST just as horribly radically left as BO is. So don't hold your breath on that, Jerome.

I'd always figured that we would have a black president before a woman one.

I like the "Jerome" thing..to bad I have an ultra white name..BOB.

patteeu
03-24-2010, 06:32 PM
If he was white I doubt any of you guys would feel this way.

Duh, of course not. If he was white, he wouldn't have gotten elected.

CoMoChief
03-24-2010, 06:40 PM
Duh, of course not. If he was white, he wouldn't have gotten elected.

ROFL that too.

Chief Henry
03-24-2010, 06:47 PM
Duh, of course not. If he was white, he wouldn't have gotten elected.

You are on a roll...:thumb:

Velvet_Jones
03-24-2010, 09:17 PM
Prove it. Why do you want thoughts on something that wont happen?

You could just as easily post "Hunts to sell Chiefs to group who want to move team to LA. Thoughts?"

Some of us said that Obama was a socialist before he was elected. We just proved it.

go bowe
03-24-2010, 09:30 PM
Change......that's what will be left in your wallet.

-Barack Obama-that's a good one... ROFL ROFL ROFL

go bowe
03-24-2010, 09:37 PM
Since he's also related to Dick Cheney I don't understand liberals having a problem with this title.obama is related to dick cheney?

i won't ever vote for his ass again...

go bowe
03-24-2010, 09:40 PM
Yeah baby. I anxiously peak into the mailbox every night looking for my beer invite to the WH.you peak into a mailbox?

sounds kinda kinky...

banyon
03-24-2010, 09:52 PM
Here's the other two times people knew this was going to happen:

Obama's VAT the Tax that is coming for everyone! (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=215366) (Oct 2009)

Obama's 3 Trillion dollar tax increase! (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=218327) (Nov 2009)

Velvet_Jones
03-24-2010, 11:04 PM
But kotter says its good for the public?

alnorth
03-25-2010, 07:55 AM
Some of us said that Obama was a socialist before he was elected. We just proved it.

This has about as much chance of being proposed by Obama or anyone in a high leadership position as a China-style mandatory abortion law for people with too many kids. This thread basically proved to me that Krauthammer is a moron.

If this actually does get proposed by Obama, I'll apologize and grab my torch and pitchfork. Until then, I see this as hysteria that gets trotted out every now and then.

BigRedChief
03-25-2010, 08:18 AM
Heard him twice mention this. This is to pay for his expensive welfare bill.
Your thoughts?So some right wing commentator on a right wing cable show speculated what would happen if this occurs, if this occurs, then this will occur etc. etc. and you thought this was news? thread worthy that Obama is announcing an expensive welfare program?:facepalm:

Just more the sky is falling rhetoric from Fox "news".

HonestChieffan
03-25-2010, 09:42 AM
When a US Senator, Chairman of the Senate Finance committee, in the Presidents own party says a VAT should "be on the table" its a bit more real than saying its just speculation by media types.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/26/AR2009052602909.html

talastan
03-25-2010, 10:34 AM
But I thought that people earning under $250,000 a year wouldn't have their taxes increased? /Obots everywhere

patteeu
03-25-2010, 11:31 AM
This has about as much chance of being proposed by Obama or anyone in a high leadership position as a China-style mandatory abortion law for people with too many kids. This thread basically proved to me that Krauthammer is a moron.

If this actually does get proposed by Obama, I'll apologize and grab my torch and pitchfork. Until then, I see this as hysteria that gets trotted out every now and then.

I'm shocked that you don't even think this has a chance of being proposed. It's not like the VAT is an uncommon form of taxation and it's not like they'd be proposing it as a regressive alternative to the income tax.

I don't know whether it could pass, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that it could be proposed. I don't think it's any less likely than Bush's social security private account idea.

patteeu
03-25-2010, 11:32 AM
But I thought that people earning under $250,000 a year wouldn't have their taxes increased? /Obots everywhere

BRC still believes it.

HonestChieffan
03-25-2010, 11:37 AM
BRC still believes it.

He believes government can tell citizens what to on any level. Im still amazed at that.

bowener
03-25-2010, 12:24 PM
There was even a progressive private meeting where Schumer and Reid discussed doing away with Constitutional principles, even the Bill of Rights, with just a simple majority vote. They're commies.

Where could somebody find this if they were interested in seeing if it really happened? Are there minutes from this meeting or what? Link please.

BigRedChief
03-25-2010, 12:26 PM
Im still amazed at that.Thats what my wife said last night.:)

BigRedChief
03-25-2010, 12:28 PM
BRC still believes it.excuse me....i thought I was a flip flopper like McCain and Kerry? You can't marginalize me both ways. Make up your mind.:Poke:

patteeu
03-25-2010, 02:37 PM
excuse me....i thought I was a flip flopper like McCain and Kerry? You can't marginalize me both ways. Make up your mind.:Poke:

No, Obama is the flip flopper. You're a rationalizer who finds a way to justify continued belief in hope and change. At least that's how it appears to me.

The Mad Crapper
03-30-2010, 10:32 AM
http://www.wnd.com/images/misc/B1055.jpg

alnorth
04-21-2010, 08:53 PM
So, in our previous episode...

Prove it. Why do you want thoughts on something that wont happen?

You could just as easily post "Hunts to sell Chiefs to group who want to move team to LA. Thoughts?"

JFC I expect this type of overly defensive reaction from the obots around here. What's there to prove anyway? Krauthammer definitely predicted it.

Its fine if a bunch of eggheads sitting around a table brainstorming how to get out of debt suggests it, as long as our leaders smile, pat them on the head, say "nice try", and ignore their advice.

If our elected political leaders start seriously talking about a VAT, there will be a holy war. I do not believe there is any way that even the Democrats could scrounge up majority support within their own caucus, much less unite behind it.

I hope you're right, but I'm not as confident as you are. If they describe it as a business tax and design it in a way that doesn't show up at all for the consumer (e.g. a line item on the receipt like sales tax), they'll have class warriors cheering the way that businesses are finally being asked to pay their fair share, without realizing that it's really a tax on domestic consumers.

4/21/2010: Obama suggests value-added tax may be an option (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100421/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_tax)

yeah... welp.

patteeu, I apologize, I guess I should be more cynical. It is still not a proposal yet since Obama is waffling about how it would be a "novel idea" and he wants all options on the table, but it seems clear to me now that its more like "if I thought we could get away with passing a VAT, I would propose it in a heartbeat", which is probably close enough for outrage.

I still don't think this has a chance in hell of passing since this is a highly regressive tax, so you'd think a lot of people on the left would oppose it.

vailpass
04-21-2010, 09:31 PM
So, in our previous episode...









yeah... welp.

patteeu, I apologize, I guess I should be more cynical. It is still not a proposal yet since Obama is waffling about how it would be a "novel idea" and he wants all options on the table, but it seems clear to me now that its more like "if I thought we could get away with passing a VAT, I would propose it in a heartbeat", which is probably close enough for outrage.

I still don't think this has a chance in hell of passing since this is a highly regressive tax, so you'd think a lot of people on the left would oppose it.


Props for manning up. I wonder what other obama supporters think about a VAT?

petegz28
04-21-2010, 10:28 PM
If Obama passed a VAT he could consider himself one and done. It would raise taxes, I should say blatantly raise taxes on people making under $200k, breaking the promise he made when he said he would not do just that.

George Bush Sr. comes to mind with the whole "Read my lips" phrase.

Brainiac
04-22-2010, 08:58 AM
If Obama passed a VAT he could consider himself one and done. It would raise taxes, I should say blatantly raise taxes on people making under $200k, breaking the promise he made when he said he would not do just that.

George Bush Sr. comes to mind with the whole "Read my lips" phrase.
I'm sure he'll be looking for a way to give income tax "credits" to enough people to buy himself four more years.

The Mad Crapper
04-22-2010, 09:29 AM
If Obama passed a VAT he could consider himself one and done.

He's already one and done, and he will sign a VAT bill.

He's a total scumbag, just like I've been saying for two years now.