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View Full Version : Poop What does Jimmy Clausen's draft fall mean?


jAZ
04-25-2010, 12:04 AM
To me it's a dramatic reflection of how crazy it is for any average-joe-fan to form any sort of deeply held opinions about any player in the draft.

None of us on this board - no matter how much college football we watch, no matter how many hours of (fill in the blank draft guru) we read/watch/listen to, no matter how many mock drafts we read, no matter how many mocks we create - possesses a fraction of the information available to a professional staff (any staff current or previous).

We don't have evaluations by professional scouts, doctors, psychologists or college coaches.

We don't have the full depth of understanding that a professional personnel staff has of the likely direction that FA will be taking, or the potential trade talks that might be happening in the background.

We don't have a detailed understanding of the financial and salary cap (or lack of) ramifications that all of the moves happen within.

We don't have the essential understanding of all of the above information within the context of an extensive and overarching personnel and coaching strategy.

We are almost never taking a 2-3 year view of talent acquisition strategy with each of the above in mind.

We are all prone to being subjected to the "group think" that develops in the media consuming world that we live in and that is driven largely by a handful of paid talking heads at the major networks.

Everything about the understanding that *all* of us have is superficial and 2nd- or 3rd-hand information at best.

So while I have no problem with average-joe-fan having our own opinions about what we thought was good or bad about the draft... I think it's completely crazy to put much weight in any opinion that any one of us have.

Anyone who takes themselves very seriously in their evaluations is way off the mark to begin with.

That Jimmy Clausen was seriously debated as a top-5 pick in the month prior to the draft and he was passed on by every team in the league and multiple times by about 1/2 the teams... says just about everything you need to know about the common wisdom the public holds... and the more informed wisdom that the pros hold.

ClevelandBronco
04-25-2010, 12:12 AM
Tim Tebow and I agree with you.

cdcox
04-25-2010, 12:14 AM
That Jimmy Clausen was seriously debated as a top-5 pick in the month prior to the draft and he was passed on by every team in the league and multiple times by about 1/2 the teams... says just about everything you need to know about the common wisdom the public holds... and the more informed wisdom that the pros hold.

Unless a QB that multiple teams have passed on turns out to be a franchise QB. Luckily that has never ever happened so we don't have to deal the fact that maybe the informed wisdom of the pros isn't all it's cracked up to be.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 12:14 AM
It means the same thing Aaron Rodgers' draft fall meant:

Most GMs are fucking stupid. There's a reason why the same 6 teams are good every year.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 12:15 AM
I'd just like to point out how stunningly stupid jaz's attempt to rationalize his fall with the cap is.

1) There is no cap
2) Once you fall out of the top 10 picks, cap impact for players is negligable, and by the 25th pick, an outright bargain.

SPATCH
04-25-2010, 12:18 AM
I think his immaturity put a lot of people off... he is not a strong leader

jAZ
04-25-2010, 12:19 AM
It means the same thing Aaron Rodgers' draft fall meant:

Most GMs are ****ing stupid. There's a reason why the same 6 teams are good every year.

It means that the difference between college and the pros is so massive that projecting the ability of a given player to successfully make the transition is such a crap shoot that it's insane for even a professional staff to have the certainty that most drafturbators around here have with a 1/50th of the knowledge.

jAZ
04-25-2010, 12:20 AM
I'd just like to point out how stunningly stupid jaz's attempt to rationalize his fall with the cap is.

1) There is no cap
2) Once you fall out of the top 10 picks, cap impact for players is negligable, and by the 25th pick, an outright bargain.

Did you read my post? "salary cap (or lack of)"

Count Zarth
04-25-2010, 12:21 AM
This is the True Fan manifesto.

Short version: WE'RE DUMB, PIOLI IS SMART.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 12:23 AM
Did you read my post? "salary cap (or lack of)"

1) We do have information about that
2) There are no ramifications


Again, you should never post about football. Ever.

Count Zarth
04-25-2010, 12:26 AM
GMs and coaches do dumb fucking things, all the fucking time:

http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image?provider_id=714&size=550x550_mb&ptp_photo_id=2699573

jAZ
04-25-2010, 12:26 AM
And to be clear, I didn't say Clausen fell because of cap impact. I said that Clausen's fall shows how little average joe fan knows about the decision making that goes on at any professional organization. And that there are a bunch of factors (cap being one of them) that are evaluated in depth and combination within a professional organization... but aren't and quite literally can't be by average joe fan.

So average joe fan shouldn't take them selves and their opinions so seriously given this fact.

jAZ
04-25-2010, 12:28 AM
1) We do have information about that
2) There are no ramifications


Again, you should never post about football. Ever.

Please, settle down, read more carefully and stop distorting my statements to rationalize your views.

BossChief
04-25-2010, 12:29 AM
It means we should just never bring up his name again.

ClevelandBronco
04-25-2010, 12:31 AM
Say his name. Say Nicky.

jAZ
04-25-2010, 12:34 AM
This is the True Fan manifesto.

Short version: WE'RE DUMB, PIOLI IS SMART.

This isn't a defense of Pioli. This is true for ALL staffs and all fans of all teams, no matter how (in)effective or (un)successful they may be.

And yes, even professional coaches, GMs, scouts and owners will make a stupid decision. And yes, average joe fan will make a brilliant prediction.

I'm sure somewhere some avearge joe fan said Jared Allen would be the best DE in the NFL before he was drafted in the 4th round.

But collectively, fans have such a massive gap in information that they can't justify the certainty they all too often have. Hell, the pros themselves have don't have the certainly of self opinion that many around here do.

That fact alone is a screaming red alert that maybe the certainty is out of place.

Von Dumbass
04-25-2010, 12:41 AM
I think his immaturity put a lot of people off... he is not a strong leader

Intangibles are extremely important. All of the QB's picked in the first round over the years have had a lot of talent some of them just didn't have the intangibles.

penchief
04-25-2010, 12:41 AM
It means the same thing Aaron Rodgers' draft fall meant:

Most GMs are ****ing stupid. There's a reason why the same 6 teams are good every year.

But then again Rodgers didn't fall to 48. Face it, there are a bunch of self-proclaimed experts around here who don't know as much as they think they do.

I had a better grasp on Clausen's value than the "Clausen at five" crowd. I didn't have to watch every play in Clausen's career to recognize that there were some major question marks about his projected success at the pro level (throwing motion, happy feet).

That's not to say that Clausen won't evenually do well. But clearly he wasn't perceived to be the "franchise quarterback" that many around here would have us all believe.

It's true that some people allow themselves to be swayed by media hype. It's also true that some people like to present themselves as all-knowledgable. When the conventional wisdom meets the self-proclaimed expert it tends to yield a little too much blather and not enough objectivity.

penchief
04-25-2010, 01:03 AM
Hell, the pros themselves have don't have the certainly of self opinion that many around here do.

That fact alone is a screaming red alert that maybe the certainty is out of place.

Exactly right.

veist
04-25-2010, 02:23 AM
GMs and coaches do dumb ****ing things, all the ****ing time:


Kind of off topic, but they should totally reprise that cover with McFail and Tebow.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 02:35 AM
But then again Rodgers didn't fall to 48. Face it, there are a bunch of self-proclaimed experts around here who don't know as much as they think they do.

I had a better grasp on Clausen's value than the "Clausen at five" crowd. I didn't have to watch every play in Clausen's career to recognize that there were some major question marks about his projected success at the pro level (throwing motion, happy feet).

That's not to say that Clausen won't evenually do well. But clearly he wasn't perceived to be the "franchise quarterback" that many around here would have us all believe.

It's true that some people allow themselves to be swayed by media hype. It's also true that some people like to present themselves as all-knowledgable. When the conventional wisdom meets the self-proclaimed expert it tends to yield a little too much blather and not enough objectivity.

You are the first person who has ever mentioned Clausen either having a poor throwing motion (he doesn't) or happy feet (he doesn't).

That's just an incredible avalanche of bullshit.

KcMizzou
04-25-2010, 02:40 AM
I think all Jaz is saying, is that all the Clausen nut huggers might not have known WTF they were talking about.

Several teams in greater need of a QB passed on him.

KcMizzou
04-25-2010, 02:46 AM
Look, I'm not sold on Cassel, but I'm not ready to give up on him either.

If we could draft a sure fire stud at QB, I'd be all over it... but by most accounts.... Clausen's not that guy. He dropped like a fucking rock for a reason.

BossChief
04-25-2010, 02:50 AM
AHHHH man, guess who his quarterbacks coach is at Carolina?

Rip Scherer

Quarterbacks, passing game coordinator; born August 3, 1952, Quarterback: William & Mary 1970-73. College coach: Penn State 1974-75, North Carolina State 1976, Hawaii 1977-78, Virginia 1979, Georgia Tech 1980-86, Alabama 1987, Arizona 1988-1990, James Madison 1991-94 (head coach), Memphis 1995-2000 (head coach), Kansas 2001, Southern Mississippi 2003-04. Pro coach: Cleveland Browns 2005-2008, joined Panthers in 2009

They should get a real qb coach to work with all these young quarterbacks they just invested multiple picks into.

BigMeatballDave
04-25-2010, 03:12 AM
I think all Jaz is saying, is that all the Clausen nut huggers might not have known WTF they were talking about.

Several teams in greater need of a QB passed on him.I became a nuthugger. I was initially pissed when we didnt select him, but after thinking bout it a bit, there may actually be an issue with the kid given we did not take him and his former HC is now our OC.

LaChapelle
04-25-2010, 03:44 AM
It means people believe what they want to believe
if you help them down that road you can become popular
sometimes all it takes is a photo to build hope on/around

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:24 AM
What it means is that there are questions about Jimmy Clausen, whether it's physical or mental.

We all knew that there were those questions.

I've said it a hundred times if I've said it once, I wasn't sold on him.

But this bullshit you're spewing is just that.

Bullshit.

STFU and go back the cesspool where your dumb ass belongs.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:25 AM
And btw, that fucking smiley pisses me off.

Get rid of that fucking filter.

the Talking Can
04-25-2010, 06:30 AM
it means a smart team that needed a QB got one cheap



we're never that team, which seems to make our loser fanbase happy

Crush
04-25-2010, 06:34 AM
Dear Matt Cassel,

FUCK YOU!!!!

warpaint*
04-25-2010, 07:24 AM
To me it's a dramatic reflection of how crazy it is for any average-joe-fan to form any sort of deeply held opinions about any player in the draft.

None of us on this board - no matter how much college football we watch, no matter how many hours of (fill in the blank draft guru) we read/watch/listen to, no matter how many mock drafts we read, no matter how many mocks we create - possesses a fraction of the information available to a professional staff (any staff current or previous).

We don't have evaluations by professional scouts, doctors, psychologists or college coaches.

We don't have the full depth of understanding that a professional personnel staff has of the likely direction that FA will be taking, or the potential trade talks that might be happening in the background.

We don't have a detailed understanding of the financial and salary cap (or lack of) ramifications that all of the moves happen within.

We don't have the essential understanding of all of the above information within the context of an extensive and overarching personnel and coaching strategy.

We are almost never taking a 2-3 year view of talent acquisition strategy with each of the above in mind.

We are all prone to being subjected to the "group think" that develops in the media consuming world that we live in and that is driven largely by a handful of paid talking heads at the major networks.

Everything about the understanding that *all* of us have is superficial and 2nd- or 3rd-hand information at best.

So while I have no problem with average-joe-fan having our own opinions about what we thought was good or bad about the draft... I think it's completely crazy to put much weight in any opinion that any one of us have.

Anyone who takes themselves very seriously in their evaluations is way off the mark to begin with.

That Jimmy Clausen was seriously debated as a top-5 pick in the month prior to the draft and he was passed on by every team in the league and multiple times by about 1/2 the teams... says just about everything you need to know about the common wisdom the public holds... and the more informed wisdom that the pros hold.

He wasn't an elite prospect. That's all it means.

A lot of varied opinions that were mostly all shared.

MoreLemonPledge
04-25-2010, 07:25 AM
Every team passed on him. Half of them passed on him twice. Just admit that you had your noses a little too far up his asshole.

penchief
04-25-2010, 07:35 AM
You are the first person who has ever mentioned Clausen either having a poor throwing motion (he doesn't) or happy feet (he doesn't).

That's just an incredible avalanche of bullshit.

Uh...apparently you base your opinions on media convention. Because I think if you watch the tape you can legitimately raise questions about his having to wind up to throw the ball and his propensity to leave the pocket early in favor of rolling out to the right.

That said, I have heard others mention similar criticisms on the heels of my observations about the matter. For instance, Jim Miller mentioned that he notices a "hitch" in his throwing motion that he doesn't like. And Tim Ryan said that Clausen "hears the footsteps" and abandons the pocket too early.

Why don't you explain to me why so many teams passed on a "franchise quarterback?" If you think it is simply because he is disliked by everyone I'll have to disagree. Because while that is a consideration it would never stop a team from drafting a "franchise quarterback" high.

Please, explain why teams passed over a "franchise quarterback" fourty-seven times?

Reaper16
04-25-2010, 07:37 AM
Not that your post isn't horseshit already but it is going to look feeble and shortsighted when Clausen proves himself to be the best QB of the '09 class.

DeezNutz
04-25-2010, 07:45 AM
It means that our GM is splitting fives against the dealer's face card.

penchief
04-25-2010, 07:47 AM
Not that your post isn't horseshit already but it is going to look feeble and shortsighted when Clausen proves himself to be the best QB of the '09 class.

That could very well prove to be true. I like Clausen's competativeness and his toughness. But that won't prove that the "Clausen at five" crowd was right about their "franchise quarterback" evaluation. Because 31 teams didn't evaluate him that way.

And it also means it will not be justified to use fact that we did not draft Clausen as evidence that Pioli and Haley don't know what they are doing. Because in the case of Clausen, it appears that armchair experts were the ones who wrongly evaluated Clausen's status as an elite quarterback.

Chiefnj2
04-25-2010, 07:49 AM
3 years from now we'll know if the drafturbators were correct, or not.

I still can't see how KC graded McCluster over Tate.

DeezNutz
04-25-2010, 07:49 AM
That could very well prove to be true. I like Clausen's competativeness and his toughness. But that won't prove that the "Clausen at five" crowd was right about their "franchise quarterback" evaluation. Because 31 teams didn't evaluate him that way.

And it also means it will not be justified to use fact that we did not draft Clausen as evidence that Pioli and Haley don't know what they are doing. Because in the case of Clausen, it appears that armchair experts were the ones who wrongly evaluated Clausen's status as an elite quarterback.

Yeah, I'd say that if Clausen turns out to be great, the "Clausen at five" crowd would be proven right.

And, yes, it would absolutely be stark (additional) evidence that Pioli is dumb as fuck. Not mentioning Haley b/c he's irrelevant.

Hey, did we just trade up for another TE?

penchief
04-25-2010, 08:00 AM
Yeah, I'd say that if Clausen turns out to be great, the "Clausen at five" crowd would be proven right.

And, yes, it would absolutely be stark (additional) evidence that Pioli is dumb as ****. Not mentioning Haley b/c he's irrelevant.

Hey, did we just trade up for another TE?

But they would be no dumber than every other team in the league, right? Even when they had the benefit of the one guy who knew Clausen better than anyone else?

If Tim Tebow becomes an elite quarterback are you going to condemn Pioli for being dumb as **** for not drafting him? It would be the same thing.

What you are saying is that you saw something in Clausen that nobody in the business saw. I can accept that. And there are plenty of players that prove the naysayers wrong. That happens all the time. But it doesn't prove that we should have reached for Clausen at five. You guys were dead assed wrong about that. The way the draft fell out is tangible proof of that.

It became evident that there was a segment of this board that wanted the chiefs to draft a "franchise quarterback" so badly that they annointed Clausen that guy even though the entire league didn't evaluate him that way.

Reerun_KC
04-25-2010, 08:05 AM
This is the True Fan manifesto.

Short version: WE'RE DUMB, PIOLI IS SMART.

Well he is the GM of an NFL team unlike everyone here...

No way could any of us run an NFL franchise..

TheGuardian
04-25-2010, 08:05 AM
I think we can stop pretending that our front office is dumb when it comes to Clausen just because you as a fan, wanted us to draft him. That's fukcing stupid.

You don't think that Weis had insight to his attitude problems on a daily basis and that is one of the reasons why we passed him over TWICE???

We valued a slot WR/return guy more than Clausen. The guy is nothing more than Jeff George/Jay Cutler part 2. In the NFL you have to be able to deal with the criticism that comes with the QB position, and by all accounts Clausen is not going to handle that well. And that's exactly what makes guys like Ryan Leaf explode in the locker room and guys like Jay Cutler be the dicks that they are. Those guys are not winners for a reason. And if it's true about Clausen, he won't be either.

Let's move on please.

Delano
04-25-2010, 08:09 AM
It means that the difference between college and the pros is so massive that projecting the ability of a given player to successfully make the transition is such a crap shoot that it's insane for even a professional staff to have the certainty that most drafturbators around here have with a 1/50th of the knowledge.

You're talking like this is the MLB draft. The transition is practically seamless compared to MLB.
Posted via Mobile Device

DeezNutz
04-25-2010, 08:11 AM
With 1/50th of the knowledge of Pioli, it's a fucking miracle that I'm able to breath, much less type this post.

Reerun_KC
04-25-2010, 08:16 AM
With 1/50th of the knowledge of Pioli, it's a ****ing miracle that I'm able to breath, much less type this post.

Miracles happen everyday....

jAZ
04-26-2010, 11:06 AM
We don't have the full depth of understanding that a professional personnel staff has of the likely direction that FA will be taking, or the potential trade talks that might be happening in the background.


http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2010/4/26/1445034/report-dt-john-henderson-visiting

Report: DT John Henderson Visiting The Chiefs Tomorrow
by Joel Thorman on Apr 26, 2010 11:18 AM CDT

You said you were worried that the Chiefs didn't take a nose tackle in the 2010 NFL draft?

Well, maybe this is why they didn't.

Tom Rock of Newsday reports DT John Henderson is scheduled to visit the Chiefs tomorrow.

Pestilence
04-26-2010, 11:09 AM
Every team passed on him. Half of them passed on him twice. Just admit that you had your noses a little too far up his asshole.

Fucking hell. A lot of teams passed on him because they didn't NEED a QB....especially in the 1st round.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-26-2010, 11:12 AM
The OP is a gawddamned genius. /Tom Brady

Coogs
04-26-2010, 12:27 PM
I thought we might take him because Weis really didn't go to bat for Cassel when asked what he liked about him as a QB... AND he had three years of first hand experience with the potential top QB of this draft.

Since we did not take him... no big deal. I like the guys we got.

Cassel has the weapons to work with now. If he fails... better QB's will be available next draft. Will we be able to get one though? :shrug:

Mr. Laz
04-26-2010, 12:33 PM
it means nothing until we see what happens to his career.

it also means nothing more to the chiefs because there is no telling how his development would differ in KC to Carolina.

it's over ... move on.

SenselessChiefsFan
04-26-2010, 12:59 PM
Uh...apparently you base your opinions on media convention. Because I think if you watch the tape you can legitimately raise questions about his having to wind up to throw the ball and his propensity to leave the pocket early in favor of rolling out to the right.

That said, I have heard others mention similar criticisms on the heels of my observations about the matter. For instance, Jim Miller mentioned that he notices a "hitch" in his throwing motion that he doesn't like. And Tim Ryan said that Clausen "hears the footsteps" and abandons the pocket too early.

Why don't you explain to me why so many teams passed on a "franchise quarterback?" If you think it is simply because he is disliked by everyone I'll have to disagree. Because while that is a consideration it would never stop a team from drafting a "franchise quarterback" high.

Please, explain why teams passed over a "franchise quarterback" fourty-seven times?

Well, I don't know that his throwing motion was a problem, but he lacked arm strength and had to wind up to heave it downfield any significant distance. I thought it was funny that so many guys were touting him considering the criticism that Cassel gets for similar arm strength.

I think a lot of college QB's roll out of the pocket early, not just him.

But, I was on record as saying he wasn't a franchise QB. Now, we get to see if he is.

SenselessChiefsFan
04-26-2010, 01:02 PM
Not that your post isn't horseshit already but it is going to look feeble and shortsighted when Clausen proves himself to be the best QB of the '09 class.

If so, it will just demonstrate how weak of a QB class this really was. You can look me up the first pro bowl he makes.

Iowanian
04-26-2010, 01:02 PM
It means quite a few know it alls, didn't really know it all.

SenselessChiefsFan
04-26-2010, 01:19 PM
****ing hell. A lot of teams passed on him because they didn't NEED a QB....especially in the 1st round.

Teams that definitely needed a QB that passed on him in the second round.

Cardinals- They ended up drafting a kid a few round later that they liked better than Clausen.
Broncos- They drafted Tebow over him.
Raiders- Passed twice.
Patriots- A stretch of an argument, but Brady is 32... how many years does he have left?
Bills- Passed twice
Dolphins- Do you think they pass on a franchise QB....twice?
Browns- Passed twice
Vikings- Favre nearing end of career.
Colts- How much longer does Manning have? He is 34.
Texans- Has Matt Schaub done anything... ever?
49ers passed twice. Alex Smith the answer?
Titans? Vince Young the answer?
Steelers? Is Big Ben going to straighten up?
Seahawks? Twice.
Rams? They passed on him.
Jags? they passed on him.

Half the league had at least an argument for a QB.... if not more. And, if Clausen was viewed as a true franchise QB, you don't think an