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'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:13 PM
Yea Asamoah was a good pick hopefully the next Will Shields though thats expecting alot. The point is Pioli addressed the QB and it sucked and did nothing. He addressed other said positions they sucked and he addressed them again.

As long as Pioli is here, Matt Cassel will be, too.

He will play out that contract by hook or by crook.

You don't get a lower risk-higher reward selection than Clausen at 36, and if you don't take him there, we aren't drafting a QB high--ever.

philfree
04-25-2010, 04:14 PM
Like I said, I think he could potentially be Dave Meggett if everything works out for him.

That said, Sergio Kindle could be Brian Orakpo, DeMarcus Ware, or James Harrison if everything works out for him.

Who would you rather have?

(and again, realize that neither are realistic comparisons)

Megget is the floor.....you're so full of your own spew.

PhilFree:arrow:

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:15 PM
You haven't answered jack-crap.

You've dodged answering the direct questions. Pretty simple yes/no questions.

You sound like a guilty defendant trying not to incriminate himself on the witness stand.

mmaddog
********

And you sound like a moron who doesn't understand logic and you are completely incapable of understanding the implicit flaws in your line of thinking, so let me draw it out for your stupid ass in crayon:

Some other NFL talent evaluators: Charlie Casserly, Matt Millen, Tom Donahoe, Carl Peterson, Ted Xanders, Pat Kirwin.

Are they, because of the positions that they hold, beyond reproach? Do they know what they are doing simply because they are "evaluators"?


The answer of course, is no. I shouldn't have to tell you this. You're an adult, for Christ's sake.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 04:15 PM
Like I said, I think he could potentially be Dave Meggett if everything works out for him.

That said, Sergio Kindle could be Brian Orakpo, DeMarcus Ware, or James Harrison if everything works out for him.

Who would you rather have?

(and again, realize that neither are realistic comparisons)

Dave Meggett on the field or off the field? ;)

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Megget is the floor.....you're so full of your own spew.

PhilFree:arrow:

So Dexter McCluster is, at worst, a two time Pro Bowler?

Bullfuck.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 04:16 PM
That's not a defensible line of thinking. If anything, it's an admission of their incompetence and it could be seen as impugning the selection of Moeaki, not supporting it.

If you're a GM and you don't think the guy you're targeting will make it to your slot, you do what's necessary to get him. You don't say "Well, if I give up this later pick, I may not be able to get a lesser talent".

Make a plan, make a decision and move forward. These guys can't play the "what if" game if they can get their guy.

I think the problem with this particular selection is that you don't agree with them moving up to get Moeaki. That's fine. But it doesn't make your opinion "right" and their move "wrong" on 4/25/2010.

It may make you "right" at some point during this season or next but I find this pick hard to get worked up about. If Moeaki becomes the player they envision, who cares that Cam Thomas may have been there later?

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:17 PM
Dave Meggett on the field or off the field? ;)

We can go with off too, because much like Meggett is a convicted rapist, the justifications of these picks represent a rape of critical thinking.

philfree
04-25-2010, 04:18 PM
Are they, because of the positions that they hold, beyond reproach?

Are you? Juat shut the fuck up! :shake:ROFLLMAO:shake:


PhilFree:arrow:

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:19 PM
If you're a GM and you don't think the guy you're targeting will make it to your slot, you do what's necessary to get him. You don't say "Well, if I give up this later pick, I may not be able to get a lesser talent".

Make a plan, make a decision and move forward. These guys can't play the "what if" game if they can get their guy.

I think the problem with this particular selection is that you don't agree with them moving up to get Moeaki. That's fine but it doesn't make your opinion "right" and their move "wrong" on 4/25/2010.

It may make you "right" at some point during this season or next but I find this pick hard to get worked up about. If Moeaki becomes the player they envision, who cares that Cam Thomas may have been there later?

I'd say that Reggie Tongue was, for all intents and purposes, who the Chiefs thought he was.

We still should have taken Brian Dawkins.

notorious
04-25-2010, 04:19 PM
We can go with off too, because much like Meggett is a convicted rapist, the justifications of these picks represent a rape of critical thinking.

Your posts read like poetry.


ROFL

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:20 PM
Are you? Juat shut the fuck up! :shake:ROFLLMAO:shake:


PhilFree:arrow:

No, and I never claimed as such.

It's not surprising that someone with your limited mental capabilities would draw such an erroneous conclusion, though.

CarlPeterson_fan
04-25-2010, 04:23 PM
Just say it You miss me. Don't you? I drafted Derrck Thomas, Will Shields, and built a team that was a contender for over a decade. And quit blaming me for Todd F***ing Blackledge.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 04:25 PM
We can go with off too, because much like Meggett is a convicted rapist, the justifications of these picks represent a rape of critical thinking.

I hope he doesn't emulate Megget off the field then we should have signed the sister fucker OL dude.

The only pick I am justifiying is McCluster I think he is going to be a very good player and we desperately needed an offensive playmaker. I have a feeling you are going to be happy about him during the season.

philfree
04-25-2010, 04:28 PM
No, and I never claimed as such.

It's not surprising that someone with your limited mental capabilities would draw such an erroneous conclusion, though.

Yeah I'm the one who is limited.:facepalm:

PhilFree:arrow:

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 04:31 PM
What I'm talking about are some of the members here screaming and whining and bitching that THEIR players weren't chosen.

FTR, I happen to like most of those guys quite a bit and communicate with them outside of the forum. I have great respect for them as human beings and our friendships.

I just happen to think they're wrong.

Passing up a franchise QB for a fucking 5 tech is criminal. Drafting for a one year wonder was flat out dumb. Taking another 5 tech and a junior CB with issues was asinine. I've complained about all of those moves for the past year and I haven't changed my opinion.

But in taking the best safety prospect in a decade, two dynamic players, a fucking stud guard and a TE with a gigantic upside, I have absolutely NO complaints. I like the 5th round selections as well.

I think this 40 time bullshit is overrated as well. Scouts look at two things: How fast a guy plays (projected 40 time) and his 40 time. If his projected time is faster than his actual time, that means he's an instinctual player on defense. There have been plenty of "fast" draft choices (Gholston, DJ, etc.) that can't play at the next level consistently (or at all) because they aren't instinctive football players.

The bottom line is that the Chiefs DID address needs in the 2010 draft but obviously not the "needs" that some felt were necessary this year.

If you're wrong, we're kicking you OUT of the drafturbators. You can turn in your ring AND your tie tack.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:31 PM
See...that wasn't so hard to answer.

My question to you is this....

Why act like a complete asshole when people don't agree with you ?

Why is your evaluation better than someone elses? If you are right then be firm in your conviction without resorting to name calling and insults. You act like Kim Il-jung when it comes to people responding to you.

Seriously....I've never had an issue with your evaluations of players. It's your tone this year. It's like you have an absolute passion to be 100% correct and make sure everyone sees it your way. If not then you attack with all the fervor of the Mongol horde.

We'll all be wrong in some way, shape or form with one of the players drafted this year by the Chiefs (or not drafted). We'll forget the ones we were wrong about and crow about the few we were logically correct about.

Sad...that is what it really boils down to.

mmaddog
********

It's not my tone, it's the fact that you are attacked for having an opinion that diverts from the party line.

If you want to disagree with me, I don't care. It doesn't bother me. But the least that you can do is offer substantive evidence when you disagree. Not "Pioli is GM and you're not, therefore your argument is invalid".

And I've willingly admitted my past mistakes in player evaluations multiple times--guys like Gholston and Matt Ryan for example.

I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I just expect that those who disagree with me will offer evidence when they do so.

If you want to point out McCluster's production in the SEC, that's perfectly valid.

If you want to say that he's a good pick, then provide some evidence.

If you want to say that he's a better pick than others available at the time, then support that reason with specific examples.

It's not difficult, but it seems to be a Sisyphean undertaking for anyone to do so.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 04:32 PM
I hope he doesn't emulate Megget off the field then we should have signed the sister fucker OL dude.

The only pick I am justifiying is McCluster I think he is going to be a very good player and we desperately needed an offensive playmaker. I have a feeling you are going to be happy about him during the season.

We needed a part-time offensive playmaker more desperately than a full time run stuffer, ILB or pass rusher?

Ask Jerome Harrison what he thinks we need.

I don't think many people are complaining about the players themselves, as much as they are upset that the draft fell right to us in terms of value and need, and we overlooked it. If I had told everyone before the draft that we were going to pass on guys like Daryl Washington, Koa Misi, Everson Griffen, Terrence Cody, Sergio Kindle, Sean Lee and Taylor Mays in the 2nd round and take McCluster and Arenas, I would have been laughed off the board.

And for a HC to say that getting a KR was a "must" for a team that has the worst front 7/LB corp in football is criminal.

Kick returners don't win you championships. Neither do undersized part-time slot WR's.

One thing I can guarantee you is that you will NOT sniff a championship without having a solid front seven/run defense.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2010, 04:33 PM
Yeah I'm the one who is limited.:facepalm:

PhilFree:arrow:

Phil, my sack mist is more intelligent than you.

CarlPeterson_fan
04-25-2010, 04:34 PM
If you're wrong, we're kicking you OUT of the drafturbators. You can turn in your ring AND your tie tack.

Don't you have to be a drafturbator to kick someone out??

GoChiefs a drafturbator LMAO More like a masterbator. ROFL

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 04:35 PM
We needed a part-time offensive playmaker more desperately than a full time run stuffer, ILB or pass rusher?

Ask Jerome Harrison what he thinks we need.

I don't think many people are complaining about the players themselves, as much as they are upset that the draft fell right to us in terms of value and need, and we overlooked it.

For a HC to say that getting a KR was a "must" for a team that has the worst front 7/LB corp in football is criminal.

Kick returners don't win you championships. Neither do undersized part-time slot WR's.

One thing I can guarantee you is that you will NOT sniff a championship without having a solid front seven/run defense.

So, you disagree with the selections but admit the need? Or just disagree with the selections?

I have no problem with this draft. I'll take potential playmakers with great resumes any day of the week over a fatass NT and a Texas linebacker with possible medical problems.

The Chiefs needed playmakers and they needed help defensively up the middle. Apparently, they felt the offensive playmakers were more of an immediate need than run stuffers.

And let's replay the Cleveland game with Dorsey and see if Harrison breaks 150.

And I don't think there's a chance they even sniff a championship before 2012, which leaves them plenty of time to address the NT and linebacking positions.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 04:36 PM
This is ridiculous.

SI and Rick Gosselin think the Chiefs drafts were A+ (Better than Seattle) but I read from a few snarky know-it-alls that because they passed on a ****ing fatass, lazy NT or didn't draft an ILB or broke OLB in the second, Pioli's a moron and the Chiefs are doomed to suck.

Meanwhile, if they HAD taken any of those guys, they all come with significant risks. There is no more risk than usual in an NFL draft by taking a playmaker in McCluster who can virtually play at any skill position on offense or the most dynamic returner (and a damn good CB).

The level of faux outrage displayed by some is completely ****ing laughable AND predictable.

Wow.

These were my exact thoughts...

If I could give you more rep, I would.

philfree
04-25-2010, 04:36 PM
Phil, my sack mist is more intelligent than you.

You swallow alot of your own mist don't you. That wasn't a question! You're so intelligent.......:facepalm:



Get over yourself man!


PhilFree:arrow:

BigMeatballDave
04-25-2010, 04:37 PM
We needed a part-time offensive playmaker more desperately than a full time run stuffer, ILB or pass rusher?

Ask Jerome Harrison what he thinks we need.

I don't think many people are complaining about the players themselves, as much as they are upset that the draft fell right to us in terms of value and need, and we overlooked it. If I had told everyone before the draft that we were going to pass on guys like Daryl Washington, Koa Misi, Everson Griffen, Terrence Cody, Sergio Kindle, Sean Lee and Taylor Mays in the 2nd round and take McCluster and Arenas, I would have been laughed off the board.

And for a HC to say that getting a KR was a "must" for a team that has the worst front 7/LB corp in football is criminal.

Kick returners don't win you championships. Neither do undersized part-time slot WR's.

One thing I can guarantee you is that you will NOT sniff a championship without having a solid front seven/run defense.I agree with this, 100% We also need playmakers on this team. Do you think Wes Welker is a part-time player?

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 04:37 PM
We needed a part-time offensive playmaker more desperately than a full time run stuffer, ILB or pass rusher?

Ask Jerome Harrison what he thinks we need.

I don't think many people are complaining about the players themselves, as much as they are upset that the draft fell right to us in terms of value and need, and we overlooked it.

For a HC to say that getting a KR was a "must" for a team that has the worst front 7/LB corp in football is criminal.

Kick returners don't win you championships. Neither do undersized part-time slot WR's.

One thing I can guarantee you is that you will NOT sniff a championship without having a solid front seven/run defense.

No I agree with you OTW. I was and still am pissed we ignored our Front 7 but with 2 picks in the 2nd round I thought like most people did we would have grabbed one of the playmakers at the WR position, like Tate or Benn. They chose McCluster which after watching this guy I think it was probably a good choice. And whoever we drafted as WR they would have been the #3 probably to begin with anyway.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 04:39 PM
What I'm talking about are some of the members here screaming and whining and bitching that THEIR players weren't chosen.

FTR, I happen to like most of those guys quite a bit and communicate with them outside of the forum. I have great respect for them as human beings and our friendships.

I just happen to think they're wrong.

Passing up a franchise QB for a ****ing 5 tech is criminal. Drafting for a one year wonder was flat out dumb. Taking another 5 tech and a junior CB with issues was asinine. I've complained about all of those moves for the past year and I haven't changed my opinion.

But in taking the best safety prospect in a decade, two dynamic players, a ****ing stud guard and a TE with a gigantic upside, I have absolutely NO complaints. I like the 5th round selections as well.

I think this 40 time bullshit is overrated as well. Scouts look at two things: How fast a guy plays (projected 40 time) and his 40 time. If his projected time is faster than his actual time, that means he's an instinctual player on defense. There have been plenty of "fast" draft choices (Gholston, DJ, etc.) that can't play at the next level consistently (or at all) because they aren't instinctive football players.

The bottom line is that the Chiefs DID address needs in the 2010 draft but obviously not the "needs" that some felt were necessary this year.

ROFL

Wow...

I bet you if we put this thread on ghost mode and no one knew who was posting what and we made Hamas guess who each poster was...he'd be guessing a lot of Dane's posts in this thread were mine and he'd be all over them telling him how stupid he is and how he doesn't know shit about shit!

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 04:40 PM
So, you disagree with the selections but admit the need? Or just disagree with the selections?

Sure, KR and WR3 were a need. Needs that can and should be addressed in much later rounds, especially when 1st round talent falls to you at positions of much more desperate need.

I have no problem with this draft. I'll take potential playmakers with great resumes any day of the week over a fatass NT and a Texas linebacker with possible medical problems.

You keep saying that, while ignoring the other 5-8 players I've mentioned for the past 48 hours.

The draft couldn't have fallen any better for us. The BPA was either a NT, ILB or OLB at every pick in the 2nd round. Instead, we came away with part-timers/special teamers.

Because kick returners win championships.

Der Flöprer
04-25-2010, 04:44 PM
Just say it You miss me. Don't you? I drafted Derrck Thomas, Will Shields, and built a team that was a contender for over a decade. And quit blaming me for Todd F***ing Blackledge.

LMAO This could be the best mult in the history of Chiefsplanet.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 04:45 PM
I agree with this, 100% We also need playmakers on this team. Do you think Wes Welker is a part-time player?

The comparisons to Welker have to stop. So ridiculous.

What kills me are the people that defend the McCluster pick by saying we're going to be in 3-wide the majority of the time. Then defend the Moeaki pick by saying we're going to be in a 2 TE set most of the time.

That's some fuzzy math.

You're telling me that Koa Misi, as one example, wouldn't have been a playmaker for this team? We have no pass rush.

Daryl Washington? Our ILB's are pathetic.

Those are just two examples, there are many more.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 04:46 PM
Sure, KR and WR3 were a need. Needs that can and should be addressed in much later rounds, especially when 1st round talent falls to you at positions of much more desperate need.



You keep saying that, while ignoring the other 5-8 players I've mentioned for the past 48 hours.

The draft couldn't have fallen any better for us. The BPA was either a NT, ILB or OLB at every pick in the 2nd round. Instead, we came away with part-timers/special teamers.

Because kick returners win championships.

Well, I was just as surprised as you and few others that they didn't take the defensive help that was available when they drafted. But that doesn't make them "wrong" for going a different direction.

They hired a new DC, brought in Smith to help at the nose, along with Berry and Lewis at safety. Javon Belcher will be in his second year, Studebaker his third, and Mays his second as a full time starter.

I think they believe that all of these players will be improved not only by coaching and more talent but by experience as well. I also believe they'll pick up some younger players at the 53 cut down, as teams try to slip guys through waivers onto the practice squad (the Steelers for instance took THREE ILB's this year).

I'm neutral on these moves. The Chiefs desperately needed playmakers and they needed help up the middle on defense. Only time will tell if they made the right decision but I'm not going to go all mental proclaiming they fucked up again this year.

And I like the fact that they acquired a guy that could score from basically any offensive skill position.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 04:47 PM
implying that I would have bitched no matter what happened in the draft.

that's the point though...

Mecca and Hamas (with a hint of OTWP) do it every single year...

There is never going to be a draft...EVER AGAIN...where the Chiefs take their guys every round...

It's not going to happen...

They'll continue to read the same projections they read from the same people every year...and vastly overrate some guys just like everyone does...and then when the Chiefs are on the clock they'll take their McCluster's and Arenas' and draft the way the drafturbators used to be all over Carl about (drafting by BPA rather than drafting for need)...

It's so funny to me that these guys are so upset about us not taking a NT or an ILB when three years ago it was all about taking the BPA and the Chiefs would never be good because all Carl does is draft for need rather than taking the best players on the board...

I have no doubt in my mind the Chiefs took their #1 guy when they drafted McCluster AND Arenas...

All I know is...there were huge ??? around guys like Crabtree, Maclin, Harvin, etc... last year...playmakers in college not translating to the pro game...

Well...

McCluster is going to be a flat out stud...and Arenas is going to step in from day 1 with Eric Berry and make our secondary a strength for the first time in a LONG time...and if he provides something like Devin Hester provided for the Bears for a few years in the return game...that pick is all sorts of WIN...

we added three players that gives our offense some serious potential (McCluster/Moeaki/Asomoah)...we have tremendous depth in the return game now...and we added a corner who, like Flowers, would have definitely been drafted higher had he been taller and ran a little better...Arenas' track record in college was very impressive.

BigMeatballDave
04-25-2010, 04:48 PM
The comparisons to Welker have to stop. So ridiculous.

How is it ridiculous if they are used in the same fashion? Both are small, fast, with good hands.

philfree
04-25-2010, 04:49 PM
The comparisons to Welker have to stop. So ridiculous.



You're right! He can be so much more.



PhilFree:arrow:

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 04:51 PM
There's never no chance, but he carries a huge risk with far less potential upside than someone like Graham.

Even more laughingly, he's smaller and slower than Brad Cottam as well. Of course, I fully expect that Cottam will be cut because he's not one of the Brahman, so a direct comparison will be difficult.

I'll ask you this much:

Was trading up to get Tony Moeaki worth Cam Thomas?

A week ago, did you know who Tony Moeaki was, and did you have him in the same galaxy of his ability to help this team as a Cam Thomas?

Gosselin had Moeaki has his #48 overall player in his top 100...

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 04:51 PM
Well, I was just as surprised as you and few others that they didn't take the defensive help that was available when they drafted. But that doesn't make them "wrong" for going a different direction.

They hired a new DC, brought in Smith to help at the nose, along with Berry and Lewis at safety. Javon Belcher will be in his second year, Studebaker his third, and Mays his second as a full time starter.

I think they believe that all of these players will be improved not only by coaching and more talent but by experience as well. I also believe they'll pick up some younger players at the 53 cut down, as teams try to slip guys through waivers onto the practice squad (the Steelers for instance took THREE ILB's this year).

I'm neutral on these moves. The Chiefs desperately needed playmakers and they needed help up the middle on defense. Only time will tell if they made the right decision but I'm not going to go all mental proclaiming they fucked up again this year.

So basically what you are saying is that you're perfectly fine with them repeating what you've ripped them for in the past.

Last year, they ignored our biggest needs in an offensive heavy draft. They thought the OL would be just fine.

That worked out great.

This year, they ignored our biggest needs in a defensive heavy draft, even though the league seemed hell-bent on making sure we got a superstar OLB/ILB/NT in the 2nd round. They think the front seven will be just fine.

Forgive me for thinking they know WTF they are doing.

Again, had there not been a laundry list of impact players at positions of desperate need available, I could live with a couple of luxury picks.

But there were no fewer than 8-10 guys that were borderline R1 talent that would have made a full-time impact on our biggest deficiencies.

And we passed, because Pioli thinks he's smarter than the rest of the league.

He's a trend setter - KR's win championships.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 04:55 PM
Yeah he could be Devin Hester...or he could be Allen fucking Rossum.

He could be Wes Welker...or he could be Roscoe Parrish.

He could be Dallas Clark...or he could be Benjamin Watson.

Stop projecting elite players onto our draftpicks....

Reaper16
04-25-2010, 04:55 PM
that's the point though...

Mecca and Hamas (with a hint of OTWP) do it every single year...

There is never going to be a draft...EVER AGAIN...where the Chiefs take their guys every round...

It's not going to happen...

They'll continue to read the same projections they read from the same people every year...and vastly overrate some guys just like everyone does...and then when the Chiefs are on the clock they'll take their McCluster's and Arenas' and draft the way the drafturbators used to be all over Carl about (drafting by BPA rather than drafting for need)...

It's so funny to me that these guys are so upset about us not taking a NT or an ILB when three years ago it was all about taking the BPA and the Chiefs would never be good because all Carl does is draft for need rather than taking the best players on the board...

I have no doubt in my mind the Chiefs took their #1 guy when they drafted McCluster AND Arenas...

All I know is...there were huge ??? around guys like Crabtree, Maclin, Harvin, etc... last year...playmakers in college not translating to the pro game...

Well...

McCluster is going to be a flat out stud...and Arenas is going to step in from day 1 with Eric Berry and make our secondary a strength for the first time in a LONG time...and if he provides something like Devin Hester provided for the Bears for a few years in the return game...that pick is all sorts of WIN...

we added three players that gives our offense some serious potential (McCluster/Moeaki/Asomoah)...we have tremendous depth in the return game now...and we added a corner who, like Flowers, would have definitely been drafted higher had he been taller and ran a little better...Arenas' track record in college was very impressive.
Your post would make a lot more sense if Pioli DID draft BPA. This was not a BPA draft. Outside of the 1st round it was far, far from a BPA draft.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 04:55 PM
that's the point though...

Mecca and Hamas (with a hint of OTWP) do it every single year...

There is never going to be a draft...EVER AGAIN...where the Chiefs take their guys every round...

I'm going to stop reading here, since you're apparently not bothering to read what I'm posting.

This isn't about "my guys."

I've listed 8-10 guys that would have been better picks, filled a greater need and made more of an impact than the two we took in R2.

Of that list, the ONLY guys I've championed at any point in the offseason was Daryl Washington and Taylor Mays. And at the time I was pimping Mays, NO ONE thought he'd fall to 49.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 04:57 PM
Your post would make a lot more sense if Pioli DID draft BPA. This was not a BPA draft. Outside of the 1st round it was far, far from a BPA draft.

Had he taken the BPA, we wouldn't be upset.

The BPA at both picks in R2 were either OLB, ILB or NT.

Value met need, and we passed.

BigMeatballDave
04-25-2010, 04:57 PM
Yeah he could be Devin Hester...or he could be Allen fucking Rossum.

He could be Wes Welker...or he could be Roscoe Parrish.

Stop projecting elite players onto our draftpicks....So, how is you and others projecting them as crap any different?

Just Passin' By
04-25-2010, 04:57 PM
Yeah he could be Devin Hester...or he could be Allen ****ing Rossum.

He could be Wes Welker...or he could be Roscoe Parrish.

Stop projecting elite players onto our draftpicks....

The other side of the coin is that the complainers are projecting busts out of the players taken and projecting greatness out of players who fell to the 5th round.

Why should one side be free to go over-the-top, but not the other?

philfree
04-25-2010, 04:59 PM
The other side of the coin is that the complainers are projecting busts out of the players taken and projecting greatness out of players who fell to the 5th round.

Why should one side be free to go over-the-top, but not the other?

Because they think they post louder then the rest of the Planet. LOL


PhilFree:arrow:

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 04:59 PM
I'm hardly going over the top and declaring them total busts. Allen Rossum had a 10+ year career.

The elite player projection thing is just stupid and used to justify the selections. It's highly unlikely.

BigMeatballDave
04-25-2010, 05:01 PM
The other side of the coin is that the complainers are projecting busts out of the players taken and projecting greatness out of players who fell to the 5th round.

Why should one side be free to go over-the-top, but not the other?Exactly. I never said McCluster would be 'elite', I just said he looks to be used like Welker. No one knows. Its a crap shoot.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:03 PM
The other side of the coin is that the complainers are projecting busts out of the players taken and projecting greatness out of players who fell to the 5th round.

Why should one side be free to go over-the-top, but not the other?

Who's projected McCluster or Arenas to be busts? I haven't seen it.

What I have seen is people upset that Pioli apparently values part timers, special teamers and TE's more than players at core positions. And that he apparently has a short memory, because we drafted a nickle CB, KR and traded up for a TE just LAST YEAR.

Sure, a KR is nice to have, but is it more important than shoring up the worst run defense in the league when there are highly graded ILB's and NT's available?

This board universally wanted them to plug the gaping holes in our front seven, and the board fell perfectly for them to do so.

Funny how just a day later, people are fine with not filling those holes and taking luxury picks instead.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:03 PM
So basically what you are saying is that you're perfectly fine with them repeating what you've ripped them for in the past.

Last year, they ignored our biggest needs in an offensive heavy draft. They thought the OL would be just fine.

That worked out great.

This year, they ignored our biggest needs in a defensive heavy draft, even though the league seemed hell-bent on making sure we got a superstar OLB/ILB/NT in the 2nd round. They think the front seven will be just fine.

Forgive me for thinking they know WTF they are doing.

Again, had there not been a laundry list of impact players at positions of desperate need available, I could live with a couple of luxury picks.

But there were no fewer than 8-10 guys that were borderline R1 talent that would have made a full-time impact on our biggest deficiencies.

And we passed, because Pioli thinks he's smarter than the rest of the league.

He's a trend setter - KR's win championships.

What I ripped them for last year was taking a fucking 5 tech at #3 overall and being WRONG about him as a player. If they had taken Harvin, Matthews, Sanchez, Oher, Crabtree or Cushing at #3, it may have looked like a reach but in reality, it wasn't.

I also ripped them for taking another 5 tech in round three, taking a CB in round four and so on, while ignoring real needs at WR and offensive line. And while I was correct about Louis Murphy in the 4th, Urbick's been a disaster in Pittsburgh and can't get on the field.

In 2010, they addressed needs with playmakers. They may not be the needs that you felt need to be addressed at the time, but they did need to be addressed.

The only offensive playmaker on the roster was Jamal Charles. Now, they've added a guy like McCluster which can score from any skill position. If they had "reached" for a guy like Linval Joseph, I would have been fine with that but at least they addressed a position of need with a playmaker.

They took Arenas, who Gruden described as a Ronde Barber like player (having seen him in high school and the SEC) over a fatass like Cody or an ILB like Washington, Lee, etc. Again, they addressed a position of need (nickel back) and the return game, getting the most dynamic returner in the nation. I'd have been fine with Lee or Washington but Arenas addressed two needs in one player.

As I stated in a different thread, I think that Pioli is approaching this team as a complete rebuilding project and he's going to put HIS type of players on this football team. I think it's going to be 2012 at the earliest before they're ready to consistently compete for championships, but I think I at least understand the method behind his apparent madness.

Whether it works or not, time will tell.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:04 PM
Your post would make a lot more sense if Pioli DID draft BPA. This was not a BPA draft. Outside of the 1st round it was far, far from a BPA draft.

This is laughable bullshit ROFL

It really is.

Reaper...NEWSFLASH...your best available player isn't Scott Pioli's best available player...

Just because you have "Player X" as your best available doesn't mean Scott Pioli, or any other GM, has that same draft board...

In fact, I find it hilarious that you amateur draft "experts" don't understand that SIMPLY concept...

CLEARLY...the Chiefs were drafting the best on their board when they were on the clock...

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:06 PM
Had he taken the BPA, we wouldn't be upset.

The BPA at both picks in R2 were either OLB, ILB or NT.

Value met need, and we passed.

Mel Kiper, Walter Football, Hamas Jenkins...just because their BPA is a NT...doesn't mean he's the BPA on the Chiefs board.

You guys are colossal morons and you prove it every single draft weekend.

tk13
04-25-2010, 05:06 PM
Your post would make a lot more sense if Pioli DID draft BPA. This was not a BPA draft. Outside of the 1st round it was far, far from a BPA draft.

I obviously can't speak for Pioli... but we don't know if that's the case. Some of these guys clearly use a way different board than everyone else. The whole Parcells tree seems to have their own ideas... Bill Polian is out there in left field playing a different game most of the time, etc.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:07 PM
Who's projected McCluster or Arenas to be busts? I haven't seen it.

What I have seen is people upset that Pioli apparently values part timers, special teamers and TE's more than players at core positions. And that he apparently has a short memory, because we drafted a nickle CB, KR and traded up for a TE just LAST YEAR.

Sure, a KR is nice to have, but is it more important than shoring up the worst run defense in the league when there are highly graded ILB's and NT's available?

This board universally wanted them to plug the gaping holes in our front seven, and the board fell perfectly for them to do so.

Funny how just a day later, people are fine with not filling those holes and taking luxury picks instead.

Get out that Koolaid Pioli pic because that's what we're back too, and stunningly we are right back to the same uneducated posters screaming "Pioli" as if he were unquestionable, it's last year all over again.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 05:08 PM
Get out that Koolaid Pioli pic because that's what we're back too, and stunningly we are right back to the same uneducated posters screaming "Pioli" as if he were unquestionable, it's last year all over again.

http://i40.tinypic.com/141iiv4.jpg

BigMeatballDave
04-25-2010, 05:08 PM
Who's projected McCluster or Arenas to be busts? I haven't seen it.

What I have seen is people upset that Pioli apparently values part timers, special teamers and TE's more than players at core positions. And that he apparently has a short memory, because we drafted a nickle CB, KR and traded up for a TE just LAST YEAR.

Sure, a KR is nice to have, but is it more important than shoring up the worst run defense in the league when there are highly graded ILB's and NT's available?

This board universally wanted them to plug the gaping holes in our front seven, and the board fell perfectly for them to do so.

Funny how just a day later, people are fine with not filling those holes and taking luxury picks instead.I'm not fine with it, I've come to terms with it. I've been a fan since the early 80s. I was pissed 2 days ago. I'm over it. Staying pissed about it isnt healthy and isnt gonna change things. Just trying to find a silver lining...

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:08 PM
Mel Kiper, Walter Football, Hamas Jenkins...just because their BPA is a NT...doesn't mean he's the BPA on the Chiefs board.

You guys are colossal morons and you prove it every single draft weekend.

Yep just like you defended that giant turd of a draft from last year.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 05:09 PM
I defended it, too.

Fool me once....

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:09 PM
You know what's funny?

EVERYONE sees it...

Except Chiefs fans.

This team is going to be and up and coming team and this draft...PROVED to me...Scott Pioli will be a great GM for this franchise.

He's building a team exactly how he sees fit...first 5 picks...high character guys, team captains, LIVE AND BREATH football...and all have tremendous ability.

For years everyone is so excited about Gosselin's mocks and his top 100...and we landed 5 guys who were in the what, top 60?

I have a great, great, great feeling about this draft class.

BigMeatballDave
04-25-2010, 05:10 PM
Get out that Koolaid Pioli pic because that's what we're back too, and stunningly we are right back to the same uneducated posters screaming "Pioli" as if he were unquestionable, it's last year all over again.Hey, its Debbie Downer. Excuse me, I need some Prozac before I start reading your posts...:)

philfree
04-25-2010, 05:10 PM
Mel Kiper, Walter Football, Hamas Jenkins...just because their BPA is a NT...doesn't mean he's the BPA on the Chiefs board.

You guys are colossal morons and you prove it every single draft weekend.


....LOL......"This".....LOL..


I see why they don't like you.....


PhilFree:arrow:

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:11 PM
Drafting untalented team captains doesn't win games, we drafted a safety who ran a slower time than some of the OT's, there are great character people that post here, I don't want them suiting up for the Chiefs.

Scott Pioli is building a boyscout troupe, that's nice, it doesn't win games.

Of course reading Hootie's posts are always humorous because the guy would literally defend any pick.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:11 PM
....LOL......"This".....LOL..


I see why they don't like you.....


PhilFree:arrow:

Because he's more uneducated about this topic than even you are?

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:12 PM
Yep just like you defended that giant turd of a draft from last year.

I don't think I defended it at all...

Last year...

I was 100% on the...

Well, I have no idea, these aren't exciting picks but Pioli is the executive of the decade fence...

and we still have no idea whether or not that draft class is a failure yet anyways...depends on Jackson and Cassel...so far, off to a bad start.

But at no point was I like "wow, this class is going to be great!" last year...at NO point.

This year...wow...I feel 100% confident we had a MONSTER draft...

Berry and Asomoah are locks...McCluster and Arenas have game changing ability and tremendous track records...and if their game transitions into the pro game...wow. Right there. We win...

Anything we get from Moeaki or our 5th round picks is just gravy.

Reaper16
04-25-2010, 05:12 PM
This is laughable bullshit ROFL

It really is.

Reaper...NEWSFLASH...your best available player isn't Scott Pioli's best available player...

Just because you have "Player X" as your best available doesn't mean Scott Pioli, or any other GM, has that same draft board...

In fact, I find it hilarious that you amateur draft "experts" don't understand that SIMPLY concept...

CLEARLY...the Chiefs were drafting the best on their board when they were on the clock...
I'm not sure that they were even doing that, unless they limited their board to very specific kinds of players. For instance, Haley talked about KR being not just a need, but a must. Perhaps the Chiefs were limiting their board at times to players with return ability. Perhaps the Chiefs were limiting their board to team captains. I just don't get the sense that Pioli's board took into account a broad swath of players. They seemed to go really specialized for this draft.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 05:12 PM
This team is going to be and up and coming team


Worst front seven in football.

UP AND COMING!

LOOK OUT!

http://www.sportsfanlive.com/roller/clevelandbrownsblog/resource/JeromeHarrisonVsChiefs.jpg

teedubya
04-25-2010, 05:12 PM
Let's just implode Kansas City Sports... then we can flitter away back into obscurity like Omaha.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:13 PM
I don't think I defended it at all...

Last year...

I was 100% on the...

Well, I have no idea, these aren't exciting picks but Pioli is the executive of the decade fence...

and we still have no idea whether or not that draft class is a failure yet anyways...depends on Jackson and Cassel...so far, off to a bad start.

But at no point was I like "wow, this class is going to be great!" last year...at NO point.

This year...wow...I feel 100% confident we had a MONSTER draft...

Berry and Asomoah are locks...McCluster and Arenas have game changing ability and tremendous track records...and if their game transitions into the pro game...wow. Right there. We win...

Anything we get from Moeaki or our 5th round picks is just gravy.

Yes, you did.

You spent the entire fucking draft weekend talking about how Pioli is a GM and we aren't etc etc, hey just like now.

Just Passin' By
04-25-2010, 05:13 PM
Who's projected McCluster or Arenas to be busts? I haven't seen it.

What I have seen is people upset that Pioli apparently values part timers, special teamers and TE's more than players at core positions. And that he apparently has a short memory, because we drafted a nickle CB, KR and traded up for a TE just LAST YEAR.

Sure, a KR is nice to have, but is it more important than shoring up the worst run defense in the league when there are highly graded ILB's and NT's available?

This board universally wanted them to plug the gaping holes in our front seven, and the board fell perfectly for them to do so.

Funny how just a day later, people are fine with not filling those holes and taking luxury picks instead.

1.) What you claim are luxury picks are obviously not. Anyone who understands football understands that you need tight ends, for example.

2.) I keep getting confused. How does a NT that falls to the 5th round end up being "highly graded"? Who's doing that grading and, if that grade is accurate, why the hell aren't other teams jumping on those players? Rather than bitching at the team for not drafting that future HOFer, perhaps you should be re-evaluating the analysts.

3.) Just to point to a specific player as an example.... Cody was being derided by many here and/or elsewhere for being a big fat player who was too slow, etc... The team that took him will be using him in a 4-3, where his lack of speed and mobility will be less of a problem. How is it suddenly supposed to be a disaster that this kid got passed up by the Chiefs?

4.) You continue to post as if you expect every draft pick to be an instant success in order to avoid bust status. That's clearly not the case. No players busts from the 7th round, just for an easy example. Missing on picks does not prove a team/GM/front office sucks, it just proves that it's the same as every other front office throughout NFL history.

5.) Your opinion on BPA is exactly that. It's opinion, not fact.

tk13
04-25-2010, 05:14 PM
I'm not sure that they were even doing that, unless they limited their board to very specific kinds of players. For instance, Haley talked about KR being not just a need, but a must. Perhaps the Chiefs were limiting their board at times to players with return ability. Perhaps the Chiefs were limiting their board to team captains. I just don't get the sense that Pioli's board took into account a broad swath of players. They seemed to go really specialized for this draft.

Given their track record, I'd be surprised if they had more than 150 guys on their board. Probably less than that.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:14 PM
I hope Eric Berry enjoys tackling, he's gonna be doing a lot of it.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:16 PM
Drafting untalented team captains doesn't win games, we drafted a safety who ran a slower time than some of the OT's, there are great character people that post here, I don't want them suiting up for the Chiefs.

Scott Pioli is building a boyscout troupe, that's nice, it doesn't win games.

Of course reading Hootie's posts are always humorous because the guy would literally defend any pick.

you keep worrying about 40 times...

that's the problem with you and Hamas...

(and Al Davis)...

too much stock in 40 times...this is the NFL, it's not a track meet...

a 4.7 is plenty fast enough to be a great NFL player...it's whether or not they have football instincts and intelligence and work ethic etc. etc. etc.

and we're going to keep seeing it...

and besides...untalented team captains?? Ha.

McCluster/Arenas/Berry/Asomoah...those guys have all the talent in the world.

No wonder people are giving us A's for this draft. It was a great draft for a team that needed playmakers.

teedubya
04-25-2010, 05:17 PM
Im pretty sure Gosselin rode teh short bus.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:19 PM
Yes, you did.

You spent the entire ****ing draft weekend talking about how Pioli is a GM and we aren't etc etc, hey just like now.

but it's not like I was ever once excited about a pick...

shit...the only pick everyone seemed to like was Donald Washington and now everyone already hates the guy...

I wasn't excited about Tyson Jackson. Not one bit. Or Alex Magee...

But I didn't fucking mope about it and ruin an entire draft weekend for everyone on this board...that's for sure.

But I challenge you to find a post ON DRAFT WEEKEND last year where I said I thought Tyson Jackson was a great pick!

I don't think you'll find one.

I do however, think Berry/McCluster/Arenas/Asomoah and Moeaki were total wins and that this will be a better draft class than the one we had in 2008.

philfree
04-25-2010, 05:19 PM
Because he's more uneducated about this topic than even you are?

Uneducated?What? LOL

PhilFree:arrow:

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:19 PM
In case you aren't aware, 40 times do matter for defensive backs, build the slowest team in football, watch what happens to you.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:19 PM
Uneducated?What? LOL

PhilFree:arrow:

I'm sure you know our draft picks will be awesome by the intensity in their eyes.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm not fine with it, I've come to terms with it. I've been a fan since the early 80s. I was pissed 2 days ago. I'm over it. Staying pissed about it isnt healthy and isnt gonna change things. Just trying to find a silver lining...

I'm far from pissed. I'm saddened.

I'll root for them, as always, but I won't be surprised when the guys we passed on become superstars and we need to score 40 points a game to win on a weekly basis.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 05:21 PM
All of these bullshit appeals to a greater authority are useless.

If you really want to debate the stupid people who think the Chiefs fucked up this draft, why don't you come up with an actual ARGUMENT as to why ignoring the front seven was a good idea.

And I'll tell you what, there actually IS a good argument, but none of the Pioli ball washers have come close to bringing it up. Because you're too busy polishing those rose-colored glasses.

So let's hear it...why was ignoring the front seven a great idea in a draft loaded with defensive talent? Don't just say "Pioli knows more than you."

philfree
04-25-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm sure you know our draft picks will be awesome by the intensity in their eyes.

I'm sure you have spew in your eyes.....I D 10 T....

PhilFree:arrow:

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:21 PM
It doesn't piss me off, it does sadden me to know that we'll continue to suck though.

aturnis
04-25-2010, 05:22 PM
What with the biggest problem with the D, aside from not showing up at all on occasion, like when Dorsey is out for a game, being;

1st & 10
2nd & 9
3rd and 8 1/2

BOOM! 20 yard play.

I'd think as nickel/dime corner would merit a different calculus.

Like, if he's on the field a significant amount of 3rd downs and well really improve on 3 and out.

This has been my opinion since the picks were made. Our problem wasn't necessarily giving up huge run plays, it was not being able to get our defense off of the field, leading to long, sustained drives. I fully expect Jackson to be better next year, and Dorsey to be even better. Add the big man in the middle, who doesn't need to be great himself, just big, and DJ and whoever should be able to stop the run better than they did last year.

On top of that, we were playing from behind for most of the season, leading the other team to try to preserve their win by running out the clock.

Hopefully we won't be seeing quite as many BIG third down plays this year. Between Berry and Arenas, I think we can cover the middle of the field now. They should both help in run support also. Flowers and Carr have the outside as far as coverage is concerned.

These two players should help the defense get off the field pretty well, forcing more punts, and hopefully Berry intercepting balls. If we can for the punt more often, and Arenas can get decent returns, it'll help our offense with a shorter field.

Add in the two new offensive threats, Moeaki and McCluster. McCluster should be the real get here, he will help with YAC and should help stretch the field when asked to. Will probably add the same playmaking ability Charles does. Able to hit it from anywhere on the field. As for Moeaki, if he can stay healthy, he should help around the middle of the field also. He also is more of a threat to gain big chunks of yards than most give him credit for. Should be pretty effective in the redzone also.

Asamoah, might be able to become a starter at either LG, C, or RG. This year, or eventually in the future. Really depends what happens with Waters, will he stay around after wanting out so badly in the past? Weigmann, can he still play? And Lilja, will he be successful outside of Indianapolis?

As for Lewis and Sheffield, who knows. Hopefully Crennel and Haley can get what they want out of Sheffield. Lewis should stand a chance at pressing for playing time and possibly starting role in the future.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:22 PM
The Chiefs did something that is really really sad in the grand scheme of things, ponder this. Last years draft was very deep in offense, offensive line specifically, this years draft was extremely deep defensively.

In back to back years we have now ignored what the value of the draft was, that is not smart.

AustinChief
04-25-2010, 05:26 PM
In case you aren't aware, 40 times do matter for defensive backs, build the slowest team in football, watch what happens to you.

NO 40 times do NOT matter.. speed matters. 40 times are not a very accurate way to measure football speed... it's time for us to dump that "measurable"

If a player is slow off the blocks they can lose up to 3/4 of a second... so what could be a 4.3 time ends up a 5 ...

Simply because they aren't TRACK stars (who train that ONE aspect over and over) doesn't mean they aren't fast.

THIS is why film trumps combine every single time.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:27 PM
I'm not that worried about our front 7...

people talk all the time about how our run defense was so bad last year...and down the stretch...it did fall apart...that's for sure...especially when Dorsey wasn't playing.

But teams like the Ravens...running teams...they beat us for three quarters by passing the ball over and over and over...because our pass defense was worse than our run defense...and it wasn't even close...

like everyone said...we were TERRIBLE on 3rd and longs defensively last year...

you only have so many picks...apparently Pioli felt like upgrading the secondary was the better move with the players on the board when they were picking...

I have no problem with adding an OG and a TE...both positions of need...and a dynamic playmaker that can play in the slot/run the ball a few times/and return kicks here and there...

I'm sorry...I'm not disappointed about passing on Cam Thomas...and his 12 on the Wonderlic...and the fact that scouts say he takes a ton of plays off...

we will never draft a player like that as long as Pioli is GM...and I tell you what...I'm ok with that.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:28 PM
The Chiefs did something that is really really sad in the grand scheme of things, ponder this. Last years draft was very deep in offense, offensive line specifically, this years draft was extremely deep defensively.

In back to back years we have now ignored what the value of the draft was, that is not smart.

So which players outside of round one and two where such amazing values that led to huge contributions on the offensive line last year?

I for one will take Asamoah in the third over anyone selected from the 3rd-7th rounds last year.

FTR, Urbick's been a disaster in Pittsburgh and was my selection in the third round last year.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:28 PM
just remember...

our board guru took Clausen #1 overall (#48) and Bruce Campbell in the 1st round (he fell to what, pick #106?)...

This is the guy that says the Chiefs don't understand value.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:29 PM
1.) What you claim are luxury picks are obviously not. Anyone who understands football understands that you need tight ends, for example.

Are Tight Ends more necessary than ILB's and pass rushers, when you have neither?

I guess you don't understand football, because even KC Johnny wouldn't argue that the TE position is more important than having a solid front 7.

2.) I keep getting confused. How does a NT that falls to the 5th round end up being "highly graded"? Who's doing that grading and, if that grade is accurate, why the hell aren't other teams jumping on those players? Rather than bitching at the team for not drafting that future HOFer, perhaps you should be re-evaluating the analysts.

Cody and Joseph fell to the 5th round? I must have missed that.

3.) Just to point to a specific player as an example.... Cody was being derided by many here and/or elsewhere for being a big fat player who was too slow, etc... The team that took him will be using him in a 4-3, where his lack of speed and mobility will be less of a problem. How is it suddenly supposed to be a disaster that this kid got passed up by the Chiefs?

Baltimore runs a 43 base defense. Now I've heard everything.

The broadcasters specifically said that Cody and Kelly Gregg will likely split the NT reps in Baltimore's 34 defense.

4.) You continue to post as if you expect every draft pick to be an instant success in order to avoid bust status. That's clearly not the case. No players busts from the 7th round, just for an easy example. Missing on picks does not prove a team/GM/front office sucks, it just proves that it's the same as every other front office throughout NFL history.

Speaking of expecting instant success...

Didn't we just draft a nickle back last year?

I'm pretty sure we drafted a kick returner last year as well.

And I know we traded up for a tight end last year as well.

Seems like our own Executive of the Decade is guilty of what you just (inaccurately) accused me of.

5.) Your opinion on BPA is exactly that. It's opinion, not fact.

As is Scott Pioli's. And looking at his overall draft history, I would say putting much stock in his opinions is a mistake.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:30 PM
Hamas took Bruce Campbell over Anthony Davis...

He's our draft guru, ladies and gentleman.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:31 PM
NO 40 times do NOT matter.. speed matters. 40 times are not a very accurate way to measure football speed... it's time for us to dump that "measurable"


I said this same exact thing earlier in the thread. I don't don't give a fuck if a guy runs a 4.3 but can't play the game.

Conversely, I don't give a fuck if a guy runs a 4.7 but is seen making plays all over the field.

Football is about instinct and preparation. While the ideal player is fast, instinctive and prepares (like an Eric Berry), guys that aren't fast but are instinctive and prepared can prosper in the NFL.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:32 PM
You care about the wonderlic score of a fat guy who takes up blockers lol, you don't even have to have a brain to do what a NT does.

Todd Haley's hate of fat people is going to not allow us to run this scheme properly, NT's are fat get over it.

teedubya
04-25-2010, 05:33 PM
I'm sure you know our draft picks will be awesome by the intensity in their eyes.

I'm personally looking forward to have 7 draft picks with "C"s on their jersey.

With all of these "Captains" we may need an Admiral or something ROFL

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:33 PM
This has been my opinion since the picks were made. Our problem wasn't necessarily giving up huge run plays

No need to read any further.

4.7 yards per carry allowed, 31st in the league.

The last ranked team allowed 4.8 yards per carry.

To allow an AVERAGE of almost 5 yards a carry in this league, you have to be giving up a lot of big runs.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:34 PM
I'm not that worried about our front 7...

people talk all the time about how our run defense was so bad last year...and down the stretch...it did fall apart...that's for sure...especially when Dorsey wasn't playing.

But teams like the Ravens...running teams...they beat us for three quarters by passing the ball over and over and over...because our pass defense was worse than our run defense...and it wasn't even close...

like everyone said...we were TERRIBLE on 3rd and longs defensively last year...

you only have so many picks...apparently Pioli felt like upgrading the secondary was the better move with the players on the board when they were picking...

I have no problem with adding an OG and a TE...both positions of need...and a dynamic playmaker that can play in the slot/run the ball a few times/and return kicks here and there...

I'm sorry...I'm not disappointed about passing on Cam Thomas...and his 12 on the Wonderlic...and the fact that scouts say he takes a ton of plays off...

we will never draft a player like that as long as Pioli is GM...and I tell you what...I'm ok with that.

Dorsey missed one game.

And IIRC, the Ravens ran for over 200 yards in the opener.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:34 PM
oh man I'm so angry we didn't draft a 5th round NT Cam Thomas who probably can't even read!

the talk on him is he is lazy and takes plays off...

Excuse me for not caring we passed on that guy.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2010, 05:34 PM
The Chiefs did something that is really really sad in the grand scheme of things, ponder this. Last years draft was very deep in offense, offensive line specifically, this years draft was extremely deep defensively.

In back to back years we have now ignored what the value of the draft was, that is not smart.

How did we ignore what the value of the draft is? Because we didn't load up on all defensive players?

I'm just failing to understand all the negativity surrounding getting playmakers. People for years on end on this board claim we had no playmakers at all on this team and we needed to get them.

We add a playmaker in McCluster and 2 potentially in the secondary in Berry and Arenas and this has turned into "Pioli only wants choir boys on his team".

I'm sorry, I'm not going to cry over the fact that we didn't get a 2 down fat pig like Cody, who only really offered a warm body to put on the defensive line, instead of someone like Arenas who could do a lot of things in terms of coverage (I'm tired of seeing Brandon Flowers put on slot receivers last year) and in the return game where we had zero production all year.

Our team speed improved tremendously. I'm just not seeing all this constant negativity. As Dane said, it's a lot easier to get inside linebackers and fat bodied NTs than it is to get playmakers like McCluster.

Some of you are also taking this "team captain" bullshit too far. Yes, I'm sure the only criteria was that they were the team captains and not players that could be difference makers. It's not like they don't have a whole productive body of college work to show their abilities. It's just that they are the team captains.

Good fucking grief.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:34 PM
No need to read any further.

4.7 yards per carry allowed, 31st in the league.

The last ranked team allowed 4.8 yards per carry.

To allow an AVERAGE of almost 5 yards a carry in this league, you have to be giving up a lot of big runs.

But we need a kick returner/slot CB more, if they wanted to take McCluster I can somewhat accept that, but to turn around and take another returner and ignore the front 7 is criminal.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 05:35 PM
The comparisons to Welker have to stop. So ridiculous.



I don't think it is so ridiculous.

Welker is 5-9 185lbs
McCluster 5-9 170lbs

And at this point I would say McCluster is more explosive than Welker.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:35 PM
Dorsey missed one game.

And IIRC, the Ravens ran for over 200 yards in the opener.

yeah and if you watched the opener...you know that it was the pass that really killed us...

they opened up their running game by gashing us with the pass over and over and over again for three quarters...and then Ray Rice put us away after our entire D was totally gassed...

But hey...

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:35 PM
oh man I'm so angry we didn't draft a 5th round NT Cam Thomas who probably can't even read!

the talk on him is he is lazy and takes plays off...

Excuse me for not caring we passed on that guy.

If you haven't noticed, all NT's scouting reports say this. Being 340lbs generally means you are a bit lazy, but in case you missed it, it's required to properly run the damn defense.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 05:36 PM
No need to read any further.

4.7 yards per carry allowed, 31st in the league.

The last ranked team allowed 4.8 yards per carry.

To allow an AVERAGE of almost 5 yards a carry in this league, you have to be giving up a lot of big runs.

Chiefs gave up more runs over 20 yards than all but six teams. And they forced only five fumbles, 27th.

teedubya
04-25-2010, 05:36 PM
I'm just gonna call him Wexter McWelker

milkman
04-25-2010, 05:36 PM
The other side of the coin is that the complainers are projecting busts out of the players taken and projecting greatness out of players who fell to the 5th round.

Why should one side be free to go over-the-top, but not the other?

That's not true.

Dexter McCluster is a guy with playmaker potential, a combination Dante Hall/Wes Weswelker, but I still believe he's a part time player, and players that OTW and I have both talked about were guys that could be full time playmakers in this defense.

None of us are saying Dexter McCluster is a bad player.
He was a bad selection for the Chiefs at that spot.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2010, 05:36 PM
Dorsey missed one game.

And IIRC, the Ravens ran for over 200 yards in the opener.

The Ravens ran for over 200 yards against a lot of people.

The Chiefs defensive improvement is also going to come from coaching, which to me can make a huge difference on a defensive line.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:36 PM
yeah and if you watched the opener...you know that it was the pass that really killed us...

they opened up their running game by gashing us with the pass over and over and over again for three quarters...and then Ray Rice put us away after our entire D was totally gassed...

But hey...

So the pass defense sucks too, you are aware this team ranked 31st in run D right?

So is your argument that we suck at everything?

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:37 PM
you know why we were drafting primarily team captains?

NEWS FUCKING FLASH

Generally the best players on a team...as long as they have a hint of character...are team fucking captains.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2010, 05:37 PM
That's not true.

Dexter McCluster is a guy with playmaker potential, a combination Dante Hall/Wes Weswelker, but I still believe he's a part time player, and players that OTW and I have both talked about were guys that could be full time playmakers in this defense.

None of us are saying Dexter McCluster is a bad player.
He was a bad selection for the Chiefs at that spot.

People are clamoring for Cody, who would essentially be a part-time player as well. He's not staying in on passing downs.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:37 PM
But we need a kick returner/slot CB more, if they wanted to take McCluster I can somewhat accept that, but to turn around and take another returner and ignore the front 7 is criminal.

Mecca, I'd like for you to prove that you don't speak in absolutes and answer my question from earlier:

Which offensive lineman, outside of rounds one and two, were so amazing that it's crazy that we passed up?

KChiefs1
04-25-2010, 05:37 PM
just remember...

our board guru took Clausen #1 overall (#48) and Bruce Campbell in the 1st round (he fell to what, pick #106?)...

This is the guy that says the Chiefs don't understand value.

We have so many guru's on this board....which one predicted this?

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:38 PM
The Ravens ran for over 200 yards against a lot of people.

The Chiefs defensive improvement is also going to come from coaching, which to me can make a huge difference on a defensive line.

Coaching, scheme, improvement from year one to year two for players like Mays, Belcher and Jackson, in addition to Lewis and Berry.

Some people around here act as if the Chiefs didn't do a fucking thing to improve their defense this offseason.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:38 PM
So the pass defense sucks too, you are aware this team ranked 31st in run D right?

So is your argument that we suck at everything?

Basically.

For the first 10 games of last season...

I was MUCH more frustrated with our pass defense then our rush defense...

I was generally excited to see teams run on 1st and 2nd down against us...

We were better in 3rd and 3 than we were in 3rd and 12.

We drastically improved our secondary this weekend.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 05:38 PM
The Ravens ran for over 200 yards against a lot of people.

The Chiefs defensive improvement is also going to come from coaching, which to me can make a huge difference on a defensive line.

This belief that these coaches are riding in on white horses to turn shitty players into all pro's is not going to end well..

I remember last year "hey we'll win 4-5 more games on coaching alone!"

I see it's back.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 05:38 PM
This board universally wanted them to plug the gaping holes in our front seven, and the board fell perfectly for them to do so.

Funny how just a day later, people are fine with not filling those holes and taking luxury picks instead.

I don't want anyone to get the impression I am fine with it. Outside of the Berry and McCluster pick which I think were pretty good I was not happy with most of their decisions.

teedubya
04-25-2010, 05:39 PM
Wex McWelker!!!!!

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:40 PM
probably false hope like usual but I'm hoping we get something out of Derrick Johnson...I'm sure that hint of hope he gave us against Denver was probably a fluke, though =(

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:40 PM
That's not true.

Dexter McCluster is a guy with playmaker potential, a combination Dante Hall/Wes Weswelker, but I still believe he's a part time player, and players that OTW and I have both talked about were guys that could be full time playmakers in this defense.

None of us are saying Dexter McCluster is a bad player.
He was a bad selection for the Chiefs at that spot.

The players you mentioned may or may not be three down players, putting them in the same boat as McCluster.

I think that McCluster, regardless of whether or not he "starts" (which is dependent on who the Chiefs are facing) will likely see 70% of the offensive snaps if not more.

Reaper16
04-25-2010, 05:40 PM
ITT: people that don't think the front 7 has a significant impact on pass defense.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:41 PM
This belief that these coaches are riding in on white horses to turn shitty players into all pro's is not going to end well..

I remember last year "hey we'll win 4-5 more games on coaching alone!"

I see it's back.

Who were the amazing offensive lineman the Chiefs passed on in the 2009 draft from rounds three through seven?

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:41 PM
yeah and if you watched the opener...you know that it was the pass that really killed us...

they opened up their running game by gashing us with the pass over and over and over again for three quarters...and then Ray Rice put us away after our entire D was totally gassed...

But hey...

Yes, the Ravens had more success in the 2nd half than they did the first.

But by my math, we allowed almost 70 yards on 13 attempts (5.38 average) in the first half.

Good defenses allow a few yards more than that in a game.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:42 PM
I remember last year "hey we'll win 4-5 more games on coaching alone!"

I see it's back.

Who in their right mind wouldn't think that Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel won't be far more effective on game day than Pendergast and Haley?

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 05:43 PM
I think that McCluster, regardless of whether or not he "starts" (which is dependent on who the Chiefs are facing) will likely see 70% of the offensive snaps if not more.

I don't think so...I don't even see how this is possible...He likely will not be playing as the RB and he won't even be on the field most likely unless we have 3 WR's in the game...Which will not be 70% of the time...I don't see how you could ever be correct on this.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure that they were even doing that, unless they limited their board to very specific kinds of players. For instance, Haley talked about KR being not just a need, but a must. Perhaps the Chiefs were limiting their board at times to players with return ability. Perhaps the Chiefs were limiting their board to team captains. I just don't get the sense that Pioli's board took into account a broad swath of players. They seemed to go really specialized for this draft.

As I stated in response to one of Dane's post like it or not any player that had character issues was not going to be picked by the Chiefs. That includes Kindle, Cody and Cam Thomas.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:44 PM
The Ravens ran for over 200 yards against a lot of people.

The Chiefs defensive improvement is also going to come from coaching, which to me can make a huge difference on a defensive line.

"Coaching alone will lead us to 7-8 wins."

-True Fan, circa April, 2009.

aturnis
04-25-2010, 05:44 PM
I don't care we didn't draft him I meant why didn't we sign him as a UFDA instead of Menelik ****ing Holt? Who is the regional scout because he ****ing sucks. We could have also signed Matt O'Hanlon who will be better than that turd safety they drafted.

I didn't turn anything off though Hamas. At first I was pissed about McCluster but if you really think about it he'll be a good player. As for Arenas that was a horrible ****ing pick. He's undersized and slow. You can draft a good kick returner in the later rounds.

We didn't sign him b/c he was one of the very first to sign, and he signed with Chicago b/c he if from Illinois.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:45 PM
I don't think so...I don't even see how this is possible...He likely will not be playing as the RB and he won't even be on the field most likely unless we have 3 WR's in the game...Which will not be 70% of the time...I don't see how you could ever be correct on this.

There are most likely only three offensive downs per down (I'm not counting fourth down).

McCluster will most likely be on the field at minimum, two out of three of those downs, putting it at 67% of the snaps.

He'll likely see time on first down as well.

The bottom line is that the guy will be constantly be on the field.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 05:47 PM
All of these bullshit appeals to a greater authority are useless.

If you really want to debate the stupid people who think the Chiefs fucked up this draft, why don't you come up with an actual ARGUMENT as to why ignoring the front seven was a good idea.

And I'll tell you what, there actually IS a good argument, but none of the Pioli ball washers have come close to bringing it up. Because you're too busy polishing those rose-colored glasses.

So let's hear it...why was ignoring the front seven a great idea in a draft loaded with defensive talent? Don't just say "Pioli knows more than you."

I don't think there is a good one unless you count Romeo playing the white knight. But we have seen this act before back in 2004 and it didn't work then and isn't going to work now.

Or maybe I have different idea, they are going to run a 3-1-7 D

But I definitely would be interested in your thoughts Clay.

Just Passin' By
04-25-2010, 05:47 PM
Are Tight Ends more necessary than ILB's and pass rushers, when you have neither?

I guess you don't understand football, because even KC Johnny wouldn't argue that the TE position is more important than having a solid front 7.

1.) I didn't make that claim

2.) You're the idiot who grouped tight end in as a "luxury" pick.

Cody and Joseph fell to the 5th round? I must have missed that.

Excellent rebuttal, since I clearly meant that every player OTW chose fell precisely in the 5th round.

I see you haven't improved your posting prowess any.

Baltimore runs a 43 base defense. Now I've heard everything.

Actually, Baltimore's been known to run from both 3-4 and 4-3. However, given that the linebackers are Lewis, Suggs, Johnson and Gooden, I think it's safe to point out that they're generally running a hybrid with Suggs. Or are you going to pretend otherwise.

The broadcasters specifically said that Cody and Kelly Gregg will likely split the NT reps in Baltimore's 34 defense.

How nice for the broadcasters. Did they tell you exactly how many snaps he'll get in each game, too, or are just like everyone else and unsure of exactly how it will play out?

Speaking of expecting instant success...

Didn't we just draft a nickle back last year?

I'm pretty sure we drafted a kick returner last year as well.

And I know we traded up for a tight end last year as well.

Seems like our own Executive of the Decade is guilty of what you just (inaccurately) accused me of.

Things I'm reasonably sure of:

1.) The Chiefs need more than one tight end, and are likely to carry three.

2.) Teams sometimes have more than 3 cornerbacks on the field at the same time.

3.) The Chiefs are hoping that they got more than a KR out of that pick.

As is Scott Pioli's. And looking at his overall draft history, I would say putting much stock in his opinions is a mistake.

Actually, his overall draft history is excellent.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:48 PM
People are clamoring for Cody, who would essentially be a part-time player as well. He's not staying in on passing downs.

I've been criticized for the past two months for saying you can get a fat guy to take up blockers later in the draft, so I know that doesn't apply to me.

But don't act like there weren't full-time playmakers available at OLB and ILB when we picked.

That's the argument, Frank. The board set up perfectly to get playmakers at a position of greater need, and we passed.

Pioli values slot WR's and nickle CB's more than starting pass rushers and ILB's for a team that is dead last against the run.

That's scary.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2010, 05:49 PM
This belief that these coaches are riding in on white horses to turn shitty players into all pro's is not going to end well..

I remember last year "hey we'll win 4-5 more games on coaching alone!"

I see it's back.

I'm not expecting them to turn shitty players into all pros. If you thought that Glenn Dorsey and Tyson Jackson were being coached well by Tim Krumrie (someone you railed on every fucking chance you got) and can't develop more as a player with someone like Romeo Crennel who has a resume of developing defensive lineman into very productive players.

Coaching does help. I don't know why there's a notion on this board that coaching can't improve players.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 05:49 PM
Yes, the Ravens had more success in the 2nd half than they did the first.

But by my math, we allowed almost 70 yards on 13 attempts (5.38 average) in the first half.

Good defenses allow a few yards more than that in a game.

but if you'd think into it a little further like I do when I'm watching...

our only stops came on dropped passes or when they wasted 2nd downs on running plays...

go look at the 1st half drive charts...

furthermore...their game plan was to beat us through the air, not on the ground...and everytime we forced a 3rd and long Flacco completed a 1st down pass...

Our defense was BAD last year...

and it wasn't just the front 7...

Berry/Arenas along with development for some of the young guys will give us a much better defense than we had last year...though I imagine we'll still be pretty average at best defensively.

Offensively...

Wow...we really have a chance to do be a pretty good offense next year.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 05:50 PM
I don't think there is a good one unless you count Romeo playing the white knight. But we have seen this act before back in 2004 and it didn't work then and isn't going to work now.

Or maybe I have different idea, they are going to run a 3-1-7 D

But I definitely would be interested in your thoughts Clay.

Think like the GM of a team who has an empty stadium and a quarterback who is being questioned.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2010, 05:50 PM
Pioli values slot WR's and nickle CB's more than starting pass rushers and ILB's for a team that is dead last against the run.

That's scary.

We can agree to disagree here. I don't see things that way at all.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:51 PM
Who in their right mind wouldn't think that Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel won't be far more effective on game day than Pendergast and Haley?

Without talent, it's not going to make much difference, Dane.

If you haven't noticed, with rare exception, the guys that stand out at OC and DC also have a shit-ton of talent on their squads.

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 05:52 PM
I'm far from pissed. I'm saddened.

I'll root for them, as always, but I won't be surprised when the guys we passed on become superstars and we need to score 40 points a game to win on a weekly basis.

Whoa. Easy there tiger. On average, about 5 players in every second round become pro bowl players. Probably a little over half become contributors. But the vast majority become average rotational starters at best. Let's not exaggerate here. The majority of the people we're yelling about not taking are going to be average rotational guys at best.

It's not nearly the same as Tyson Jackson, where you could easily argue that you passed up on a clear-cut solid starter.

penchief
04-25-2010, 05:52 PM
In psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology) and logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic), rationalization (or making excuses<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28psychology%29#cite_note-0)</sup>) is the process of constructing a logical justification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_justification) for a belief, decision, action or lack thereof that was originally arrived at through a different mental process. It is a defense mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism) in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation of the behavior or feeling in question.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28psychology%29#cite_note-1)</sup><sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28psychology%29#cite_note-2)</sup> It is also an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) of reasoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasoning).<sup class="Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from March 2010" style="white-space: nowrap;">[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]</sup>
This process can be in a range from fully conscious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscious) (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly subconscious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconscious) (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt)).


Rationalization is one of the defense mechanisms proposed by Sigmund Freud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud), which were later developed further by his daughter Anna Freud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Freud).


According to the DSM-IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders), rationalization occurs "when the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by concealing the true motivations for his or her own thoughts, actions, or feelings through the elaboration of reassuring or self serving but incorrect explanations."

You're totally dismissing the possibility that a person's initial reaction may have been uninformed. If I hadn't taken the time to study Jimmy Clausen highlights I would have probably taken your word for it that he was worth the fifth overall pick. There is nothing wrong with checking one's self to make sure he or she is better informed before spouting off about a topic.

When I first heard the commissioner say "Dexter McCluster," I had a holy shit moment. I knew who he was and that he was highly regarded but I was totally caught off guard. After about an hour of investigation and further research I was very happy with the pick. But my contentment was not the result of rationalization as much as it was being pleasantly surprised once I took the time to educate myself.

As a defense mechanism, rationalization is a very real phenomenon. And when people employ it they are generally unaware they are doing so. However, you cannot randomly accuse people of rationalization simply because they reconsider their initial reaction. After all, the initial reaction may have been a knee-jerk reaction while a change of heart may have been based on a conscientious effort to gather further information.

Some might suggest that the manner in which you attack those with whom you disagree is a form of displacement. That said, by trying to be too clever you often do a disservice to your own arguments, IMHO.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:53 PM
Pioli values slot WR's and nickle CB's more than starting pass rushers and ILB's for a team that is dead last against the run.

That's scary.

I disagree with the notion that this is "scary".

Both positions were positions of great need. If the Chiefs had a McCluster and Arenas type player currently on the roster and chose players identical to those guys while ignoring the need at ILB and NT, I'd agree. But that certainly was not the case.

He made a decision that a QB/RB/WR would add more to the team than an ILB or NT at #36. He made the decision at #50 that a KR/Nickel Back was more important at this point in time than a ILB or NT.

In my opinion, neither choice is right or wrong. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other and I'm not going to rake him over the coals for adding dynamic playmakers.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:53 PM
We can agree to disagree here. I don't see things that way at all.

Explain to me how you can see it any other way?

Last year he thought the OL would be just fine as is.

This year, he thinks the front 7 will be fine as is.

Nevermind that he used high picks on positions that he drafted just LAST YEAR.

More than likely, the results are going to be eerily similar.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2010, 05:53 PM
"Coaching alone will lead us to 7-8 wins."

-True Fan, circa April, 2009.

So what I'm getting from you and Mecca is that coaches really don't matter?

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 05:55 PM
I've been criticized for the past two months for saying you can get a fat guy to take up blockers later in the draft, so I know that doesn't apply to me.

But don't act like there weren't full-time playmakers available at OLB and ILB when we picked.

That's the argument, Frank. The board set up perfectly to get playmakers at a position of greater need, and we passed.

Pioli values slot WR's and nickle CB's more than starting pass rushers and ILB's for a team that is dead last against the run.

That's scary.

And the only guy we passed on that wouldn't have been a reach at 2a was an OLB with a legitimate injury concern.

You can't walk in with tunnel-vision and draft by need for the position you want. That's what got us in trouble by taking Tyson Jackson. The Chiefs took a guy that was on the top of their board and probably at the top of a lot of teams' boards.

You're arguing for a needs-based draft over BPA. You can have preference over one method or the other, sure, but taking BPA is usually the way to go beyond the first round.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 05:56 PM
There are most likely only three offensive downs per down (I'm not counting fourth down).

McCluster will most likely be on the field at minimum, two out of three of those downs, putting it at 67% of the snaps.

He'll likely see time on first down as well.

The bottom line is that the guy will be constantly be on the field.

Well, something has to give.

The people defending the McCluster pick say he's always be on the field because we're going to be in a lot of 3-wide formations.

Those same people then defend the Moeaki pick by saying we're going to be in a lot of 2 TE formations.

Do the math.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:56 PM
Without talent, it's not going to make much difference, Dane.

If you haven't noticed, with rare exception, the guys that stand out at OC and DC also have a shit-ton of talent on their squads.

I'm beginning to think I'm one of only people that don't see this as a one year rebuilding program.

Quite honestly, I don't see anything special about Cam Thomas or Cody or Lee or Washington that can't be found in any draft, any year.

What I did see in this draft was a special guy like McCluster, who could line up and produce at any given skill position. I saw a cornerback that was also the nation's best returner.

He chose those guys because he believes that they're special players and playmakers and I have no problem with that.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 05:56 PM
Think like the GM of a team who has an empty stadium and a quarterback who is being questioned.

Ok.

Offense sells tickets so we are going to be putting up alot of points with no D?

The Bad Guy
04-25-2010, 05:57 PM
Explain to me how you can see it any other way?

Last year he thought the OL would be just fine as is.

This year, he thinks the front 7 will be fine as is.

Nevermind that he used high picks on positions that he drafted just LAST YEAR.

More than likely, the results are going to be eerily similar.

He used a high pick. Not picks. The only one affected by this was Donald Washington.

I see it as he wants playmakers on the field. I'm not going to cry about Sean Lee not coming here when he couldn't stay on the field at Penn State or Cody. I don't think either of those guys were going to make us a better front 7.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 05:57 PM
Well, something has to give.

The people defending the McCluster pick say he's always be on the field because we're going to be in a lot of 3-wide formations.

Those same people then defend the Moeaki pick by saying we're going to be in a lot of 2 TE formations.

Do the math.

I don't think anyone knows for certain how Weis will line his guys up week after week but I most certainly expect to see Moeaki and McCluster on the field for the majority of the time.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 05:57 PM
Ok.

Offense sells tickets so we are going to be putting up alot of points with no D?

If we're not putting up a lot of points, Pioli will look terrible.

In other news:

Ummm...we DID address the front 7. We got Shaun Smith. You can make fun of that statement all you wish but if you think I am joking about him being a significant upgrade over Ron Edwards then I would tell you to go and look at his stats under Crennel. HUGE UPGRADE. And I can also assure you that Edwards will play significantly better with better coaching and a year of 3-4 under his belt. And with better DL play comes better LB play. And we aren't even close to being through yet.

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 05:59 PM
Explain to me how you can see it any other way?

Last year he thought the OL would be just fine as is.

This year, he thinks the front 7 will be fine as is.

Nevermind that he used high picks on positions that he drafted just LAST YEAR.

More than likely, the results are going to be eerily similar.

The 2009 draft was an absolute disaster. There's no defending it. We reached for players and we took a bunch of players off poor due diligence. I don't think this implies AT ALL that they don't care about the front 7. It only means that at the picks we were sitting at, we thought the BPA was at another position. It's not like missing out on a NT or an OLB is going to kill our Super Bowl chances in 2009. We weren't making the playoffs no matter who we drafted.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 05:59 PM
Well, something has to give.

The people defending the McCluster pick say he's always be on the field because we're going to be in a lot of 3-wide formations.

Those same people then defend the Moeaki pick by saying we're going to be in a lot of 2 TE formations.

Do the math.

There are people who are defending the TE pick? Fuck that. That pick was just stupid.

Reerun_KC
04-25-2010, 06:00 PM
Just shut up.

You're a ****ing hypocrite, and I got no ****ing use for hypocrites.

LMAO

Absolutely priceless....

tonyetony
04-25-2010, 06:01 PM
There are most likely only three offensive downs per down (I'm not counting fourth down).

McCluster will most likely be on the field at minimum, two out of three of those downs, putting it at 67% of the snaps.

He'll likely see time on first down as well.

The bottom line is that the guy will be constantly be on the field.

There is also the off chance that Weis will install a wildcat formation and if it's successful he'll be on the field for at least 80% of the offensive snaps. Throw in kick returns, probably an average of 4 a game, and he's a guy we'll be seeing a lot of.

If he stays healthy and plays that many downs our team speed just improved drastically and every skill position on the field with him will benefit.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 06:02 PM
If we're not putting up a lot of points, Pioli will look terrible.

In other news:

Did you make that post about Shaun Smith? I guess I will have to see it to believe it. Also I just don't think we are going to see any improvement with our linebackers they all pretty much suck ass except maybe Hali.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 06:03 PM
Fuck no. That guy is a moron.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:07 PM
The players you mentioned may or may not be three down players, putting them in the same boat as McCluster.

I think that McCluster, regardless of whether or not he "starts" (which is dependent on who the Chiefs are facing) will likely see 70% of the offensive snaps if not more.

And I said, being generous, if he sees more than 55% of snaps and is the kind of playmaker that he's projected to be, then that pick is a fine one.

But I have to see it.

I believe he has the ability, but I just don't see him playing that many snaps.

aturnis
04-25-2010, 06:08 PM
That's not a defensible line of thinking. If anything, it's an admission of their incompetence and it could be seen as impugning the selection of Moeaki, not supporting it.

You are proving yourself to be a bombastic idiot. Getting the players you have rated highly and not worrying about a guy you have rated lower is incompetent? How does that line of thinking impugn the Moeaki selection? I believe this falls under the "go get him" part of the thinking.

aturnis
04-25-2010, 06:10 PM
Probably true but this is what a message board is for. After people really learned about this kid most people including myself think it was a good pick and are excited. This guy is probably more explosive than most of the WR's in the NFL.

There, fixed it for ya.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:11 PM
There are most likely only three offensive downs per down (I'm not counting fourth down).

McCluster will most likely be on the field at minimum, two out of three of those downs, putting it at 67% of the snaps.

He'll likely see time on first down as well.

The bottom line is that the guy will be constantly be on the field.

How are going to get McCluster on the field on two of three downs, when you also have the people who are defending the Moeaki pick the most are telling us that Weis uses a lot of two tight end sets?

Hell, zilla, in the same thread, said that McCluster would be an every down player at the same time he was telling us that Weis uses two tight end sets as one of his base formations.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:12 PM
There are most likely only three offensive downs per down (I'm not counting fourth down).

McCluster will most likely be on the field at minimum, two out of three of those downs, putting it at 67% of the snaps.

He'll likely see time on first down as well.

The bottom line is that the guy will be constantly be on the field.

I just don't see it, personally. I mean 67% is way too high to be realistic IMO. Also 'constantly' I guess is subjective...but I see him as more of a situational player. 3rd downs, maybe some second & longs, and as a slot receiver...I just dont see it adding up to a 36th overall this season for this team...

I really hope I am wrong though. (I hope he has enough talent and durability to do more).

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:12 PM
How are going to get McCluster on the field on two of three downs, when you also have the people who are defending the Moeaki pick the most are telling us that Weis uses a lot of two tight end sets?

Hell, zilla, in the same thread, said that McCluster would be an every down player at the same time he was telling us that Weis uses two tight end sets as one of his base formations.

We call that talking out of both sides of your mouth to defend anything, but this is why zilla has the Pioli ball washing gimmick, would you expect any less?

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:14 PM
The 2009 draft was an absolute disaster. There's no defending it. We reached for players and we took a bunch of players off poor due diligence. I don't think this implies AT ALL that they don't care about the front 7. It only means that at the picks we were sitting at, we thought the BPA was at another position. It's not like missing out on a NT or an OLB is going to kill our Super Bowl chances in 2009. We weren't making the playoffs no matter who we drafted.

When borderline R1 talent is staring you in the face at you're greatest position of need, and you pass, it absolutely implies that.

Their hope is that coaching alone turns chicken shit into chicken salad.

The offense (other than QB, which they aren't going to address) wasn't the problem last year, IMO.

We averaged 22 points a game after the bye week.

That's enough points to win regularly, provided your defense is ranked 22nd or better.

Even with the refusal to address the QB problem, the additions of TJ, Lilja and Asomoah alone would have improved the offense. Which means you could have been very competitive by just improving the defense a bit.

Taking some combination of Daryl Washington, Koa Misi, Everson Griffen, Sergio Kindle, Linval Joseph, Sean lee and Terrence Cody would have dramatically improved this defense for the long haul.

Instead, we surround the so-called Franchise QB with weapons, which he'll need to score the 30+ PPG necessary to win games in 2010.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:14 PM
How are going to get McCluster on the field on two of three downs, when you also have the people who are defending the Moeaki pick the most are telling us that Weis uses a lot of two tight end sets?

As I stated earlier, there are essentially three downs in which a player can participate. I'd expect McCluster to play on two of those three downs, which equates to 67%. If there's a longer series, that number obviously changes. But I certainly expect him to be on the field consistently.

As for the two tight end sets, I would have to think that Moeaki would be involved as the starting tight end, considering Pope, Cottam and O'Connell all suck at blocking (and O'Connell apparently sucks at everything).

Marcellus
04-25-2010, 06:15 PM
How are going to get McCluster on the field on two of three downs, when you also have the people who are defending the Moeaki pick the most are telling us that Weis uses a lot of two tight end sets?

Hell, zilla, in the same thread, said that McCluster would be an every down player at the same time he was telling us that Weis uses two tight end sets as one of his base formations.

Moeaki is going to be the only TE on the field. As long as he is healthy he is better than anything we currently have.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:16 PM
As I stated earlier, there are essentially three downs in which a player can participate. I'd expect McCluster to play on two of those three downs, which equates to 67%.


The only possible way this would be true is if 1) we ran 3wr sets 2 out of 3 downs AND he played in 100% of them.

I think you are fighting a losing argument here...

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:17 PM
And the only guy we passed on that wouldn't have been a reach at 2a was an OLB with a legitimate injury concern.

You can't walk in with tunnel-vision and draft by need for the position you want. That's what got us in trouble by taking Tyson Jackson. The Chiefs took a guy that was on the top of their board and probably at the top of a lot of teams' boards.

You're arguing for a needs-based draft over BPA. You can have preference over one method or the other, sure, but taking BPA is usually the way to go beyond the first round.

My argument has always been that if you have two players on the board that are closely rated, then you take the player that fills a need.

I can maybe get the McCluster pick in that scenario.
I could easily see that he was rated more highly by a substantial margin by Pioli than other players that filled other gaping holes.

But I simply can not see that with the Arenas pick.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:17 PM
We call that talking out of both sides of your mouth to defend anything, but this is why zilla has the Pioli ball washing gimmick, would you expect any less?

Which offensive lineman from the 2009 draft in rounds 3-7 did the Chiefs pass up that would have made such a gigantic difference?

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:17 PM
And I said, being generous, if he sees more than 55% of snaps and is the kind of playmaker that he's projected to be, then that pick is a fine one.

But I have to see it.

I believe he has the ability, but I just don't see him playing that many snaps.

He can't, without taking snaps away from Charles, Chambers or Moeaki.

You can't run 3-wide AND 2 TE the majority of the time. It has to be one or the other.

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:18 PM
How often did the Chiefs use three WR sets last year? Seemed like Weis did alot at ND.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 06:19 PM
Fuck no. That guy is a moron.

LMAO Who was it? I hope it wasn't me LMAO

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:19 PM
The only possible way this would be true is if 1) we ran 3wr sets 2 out of 3 downs AND he played in 100% of them.



Why wouldn't he? He's already the best slot receiver on the team. Unless he's injured, would you prefer Urban or Long on the field?

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:19 PM
LMAO

Absolutely priceless....

You're the guy that could never shut the hell up about your hate for Herman fucking Edwards, hypocrite.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:19 PM
He can't, without taking snaps away from Charles, Chambers or Moeaki.

You can't run 3-wide AND 2 TE the majority of the time. It has to be one or the other.

I'd like someone to explain to me how the Chiefs are going to run two tight end sets without having two tight ends that can actually block and catch?

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:21 PM
How often did the Chiefs use three WR sets last year? Seemed like Weis did alot at ND.


even if we used a 3wr set in the one of the 1st three downs in ever single series for the entire season it wouldn't be enough to have McCluster on the field 70 or 67% of the time....He will be lucky to be on the field 50-55% of downs 1-3.

Hell, I will consider it a huge success if he is on the field 55% of the 1st 3 downs and doesn't get his neck broken.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:21 PM
Which offensive lineman from the 2009 draft in rounds 3-7 did the Chiefs pass up that would have made such a gigantic difference?

Defend that draft from last year, I dare you, it'll just make me laugh at you.

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 06:21 PM
Well, something has to give.

The people defending the McCluster pick say he's always be on the field because we're going to be in a lot of 3-wide formations.

Those same people then defend the Moeaki pick by saying we're going to be in a lot of 2 TE formations.

Do the math.

I can do the math. Nothing is stopping you from running a 2-back set in a 2-TE formation where you keep one receiver and motion another receiver into the slot, especially on running downs. You can run 2-TE sets on 3rd down situations where you keep McCluster in the backfield and motion him into the slot as a third receiver in an empty backfield. McCluster would be involved in all 3- or 4-WR sets where you keep one TE in the game (probably being Moeaki). And McCluster and Charles would both be in the game when the Chiefs run the wildcat, which I have a feeling we'll see a few times per game.

And ultimately, when Jones is gone, it will probably come to a point where Charles/McCluster will be splitting carries out of the set.

There is most definitely a way you can feature quite a few 2-TE sets and keep both Charles and McCluster involved in a lot of reps.

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:22 PM
Haha Mecca dodges the question again.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:22 PM
When borderline R1 talent is staring you in the face at you're greatest position of need, and you pass, it absolutely implies that.

Their hope is that coaching alone turns chicken shit into chicken salad.

The offense (other than QB, which they aren't going to address) wasn't the problem last year, IMO.

We averaged 22 points a game after the bye week.

That's enough points to win regularly, provided your defense is ranked 22nd or better.

Even with the refusal to address the QB problem, the additions of TJ, Lilja and Asomoah alone would have improved the offense. Which means you could have been very competitive by just improving the defense a bit.

Taking some combination of Daryl Washington, Koa Misi, Everson Griffen, Sergio Kindle, Linval Joseph, Sean lee and Terrence Cody would have dramatically improved this defense for the long haul.

Instead, we surround the so-called Franchise QB with weapons, which he'll need to score the 30+ PPG necessary to win games in 2010.

Let's just call it what it is, we made several picks to make Matt Cassel look competent because Scott Pioli is not going to admit he screwed that up.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 06:22 PM
even if we used a 3wr set in the one of the 1st three downs in ever single series for the entire season it wouldn't be enough to have McCluster on the field 70 or 67% of the time....He will be lucky to be on the field 50-55% of downs 1-3.

Hell, I will consider it a huge success if he is on the field 55% of the 1st 3 downs and doesn't get his neck broken.

You also have to count if he is a PR or KR. I don't know which one he will be yet.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:23 PM
I'd like someone to explain to me how the Chiefs are going to run two tight end sets without having two tight ends that can actually block and catch?

To be fair ytou dont need two TE's that can block and catch to run 2TE sets..You need one who can block, and one that can block / catch..

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:24 PM
Why wouldn't he? He's already the best slot receiver on the team. Unless he's injured, would you prefer Urban or Long on the field?

I think very little of Long and Urban, but you're getting a bit carried away here.

WR is widely considered the hardest position in the NFL to adjust from CFB to the pros, sans QB.

And this is a kid that by all accounts, rarely, if ever lined up in the slot for Ole Miss and ran a legit route. When he did line up in the slot, he either came through the backfield for a handoff, or as a prelude to a screen pass.

Now you're telling me that this kid is going to step right in at a position that is extremely difficult to adjust to in the pros, and be a significant piece of the puzzle?

He may down the road, but you're expecting way too much early, IMO.

People are comparing him to Welker, FFS. Wes Welker is a legit slot WR.

This guy is a RB we're converting to slot WR.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:24 PM
If he wants a simple answer...

Anyone capable of playing RG or RT would have helped us far more than any of the fools we picked, how about that?

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:24 PM
Defend that draft from last year, I dare you, it'll just make me laugh at you.

You know, you've once again lost all of your credibility with me.

You fucking talk in absolutes then when challenged, ask one of your stupid, passive-aggressive questions.

I'll ask you once again, which offensive lineman from rounds 3-7 did the Chiefs pass on, that would have made such a HUGE contribution.

I already admitted I was wrong about Urbick.

What the FUCK is wrong with you not being able to admit when you're wrong or not being able to back up your SHIT?

Hootie's right: You're a fucking PHONY.

And I've just joined in with the other 11,997 Chiefsplanet members in laughing at YOU.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:25 PM
Defend that draft from last year, I dare you, it'll just make me laugh at you.

That's not his argument.

He's already said basically that it's indefensible.

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 06:25 PM
even if we used a 3wr set in the one of the 1st three downs in ever single series for the entire season it wouldn't be enough to have McCluster on the field 70 or 67% of the time....He will be lucky to be on the field 50-55% of downs 1-3.

Hell, I will consider it a huge success if he is on the field 55% of the 1st 3 downs and doesn't get his neck broken.

#1 - he will probably get a few carries here and there, especially after Jones leaves
#2 - But lots of people think we should have gotten Golden Tate. Why do people think that was a great pick but that this pick is, for some reason, reserved only for a "part-time player"?
#3 - Why would his neck get broken? The kid's smaller, but he's not nearly the same size as Dante Hall. He's big and he's strong. I worry a lot more about Charles' durability than I do McCluster's.

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:25 PM
I think very little of Long and Urban, but you're getting a bit carried away here.

WR is widely considered the hardest position in the NFL to adjust from CFB to the pros, sans QB.

And this is a kid that by all accounts, rarely, if ever lined up in the slot for Ole Miss and ran a legit route. When he did line up in the slot, he either came through the backfield for a handoff, or as a prelude to a screen pass.

Now you're telling me that this kid is going to step right in at a position that is extremely difficult to adjust to in the pros, and be a significant piece of the puzzle?

He may down the road, but you're expecting way too much early, IMO.

People are comparing him to Welker, FFS. Wes Welker is a legit slot WR.

This guy is a RB we're converting to slot WR.

Look at the senoir bowl tape. His transition shouldn't be too hard.

Basileus777
04-25-2010, 06:26 PM
If he wants a simple answer...

Anyone capable of playing RG or RT would have helped us far more than any of the fools we picked, how about that?

Who would have been capable of playing RG or RT?

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:26 PM
I can do the math. Nothing is stopping you from running a 2-back set in a 2-TE formation where you keep one receiver and motion another receiver into the slot, especially on running downs.

Two TE's.

Two RB's.

One QB.

LT, LG, C, RG, RT.

ONE WR

Which in your scenario, leaves either Bowe or Chambers on the bench, because you can only put 11 players on the field.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:27 PM
You know, you've once again lost all of your credibility with me.

You fucking talk in absolutes then when challenged, ask one of your stupid, passive-aggressive questions.

I'll ask you once again, which offensive lineman from rounds 3-7 did the Chiefs pass on, that would have made such a HUGE contribution.

I already admitted I was wrong about Urbick.

What the FUCK is wrong with you not being able to admit when you're wrong or not being able to back up your SHIT?

Hootie's right: You're a fucking PHONY.

And I've just joined in with the other 11,997 Chiefsplanet members in laughing at YOU.

:facepalm:

Like being Hootie for the weekend? Is it fun?

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:27 PM
Why wouldn't he? He's already the best slot receiver on the team. Unless he's injured, would you prefer Urban or Long on the field?

As I said, all you have to do is do the math. For us to achieve your concept of Mcluster being on the field 67% of downs 1-3 it would be impossible.

We would have to play 3wr sets 2/3 downs of (1-3)

He would have to be in every one of them.

He would have to not get tired or hurt doing this.

We could never not use anything but a 3wr formation...(in those 2/3 of the situations)


It just isn't going to work out like this....We will probably use a standard 2 wr formation at least 40% of downs 1-3 for one thing.

I could go on but I am hoping you will get the point and give this one up.

tonyetony
04-25-2010, 06:27 PM
Let's just call it what it is, we made several picks to make Matt Cassel look competent because Scott Pioli is not going to admit he screwed that up.

And why the hell wouldn't any of us want Cassel to be surrounded by playmakers that would make him look good?

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 06:27 PM
I think very little of Long and Urban, but you're getting a bit carried away here.

WR is widely considered the hardest position in the NFL to adjust from CFB to the pros, sans QB.

And this is a kid that by all accounts, rarely, if ever lined up in the slot for Ole Miss and ran a legit route. When he did line up in the slot, he either came through the backfield for a handoff, or as a prelude to a screen pass.

Now you're telling me that this kid is going to step right in at a position that is extremely difficult to adjust to in the pros, and be a significant piece of the puzzle?

He may down the road, but you're expecting way too much early, IMO.

People are comparing him to Welker, FFS. Wes Welker is a legit slot WR.

This guy is a RB we're converting to slot WR.

McCluster has played WR. He was a WR his first two years at Ole' Miss.

And the slot receiver is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to transition into. Nickel backs play off and you typically don't have to worry about bumps and getting off the line of scrimmage, which is easily the biggest adjustment in the NFL. You also get a lot of screens and underneath stuff, which doesn't require flawless route running.

Reerun_KC
04-25-2010, 06:28 PM
PLAYMAKERS!

We got them and I couldnt be happier with the draft...
Still problems left? Sure but there isnt enough rounds to fix everything!!!

BUT WE GOT PLAYMAKERS!

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:28 PM
To be fair ytou dont need two TE's that can block and catch to run 2TE sets..You need one who can block, and one that can block / catch..

Let us know when the Chiefs have either.

:D

Look, I like the Moeaki pick because there's no one currently on the roster with his skillset when healthy. But I'm not about to proclaim him as a great player or a bust at this point in time.

The Chiefs really don't have a good blocking tight end on the roster. Despite the size of both Cottam and Pope, neither are good blockers. O'Connell needs to make a huge jump from last year, otherwise, he won't even have a roster spot.

So I think we're getting carried away with the notion of two tight end sets.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:28 PM
:facepalm:

Like being Hootie for the weekend? Is it fun?

It's more fun that being an asshole who deals in absolutes

Reerun_KC
04-25-2010, 06:29 PM
And why the hell wouldn't any of us want Cassel to be surrounded by playmakers that would make him look good?

Beats the shit out of me... Hell I want Cassel to succeed and lead this team to a superbowl win.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:29 PM
You know, you've once again lost all of your credibility with me.

You ****ing talk in absolutes then when challenged, ask one of your stupid, passive-aggressive questions.

I'll ask you once again, which offensive lineman from rounds 3-7 did the Chiefs pass on, that would have made such a HUGE contribution.

I already admitted I was wrong about Urbick.

What the **** is wrong with you not being able to admit when you're wrong or not being able to back up your SHIT?

Hootie's right: You're a ****ing PHONY.

And I've just joined in with the other 11,997 Chiefsplanet members in laughing at YOU.

mecca aside, Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were both starters for the Bills last season, and will be slated to start again, and should improve substantially with a season under their belt this year.

Jamon Merdith also took a lot of snaps for them and played credibly as an injury replacement at Rt, while Demtrius Bell looked like a guy with real upside who just needs to learn technique at LT.

That's 4 guys on one team.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:30 PM
Lets see...

Louis Vazquez is a starting guard for the Chargers
Antoine Caldwell would have been a solid pick
TJ Lang started games at LT for the Packers
Jamon Meredith started games at RT for Buffalo and could have even been had after the draft


Is that a sufficient enough list or should I add more?

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 06:30 PM
DRAFTURBATOR CIVIL WAR

http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/civil-war-soldiers2.jpg

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:31 PM
#1 - he will probably get a few carries here and there, especially after Jones leaves
#2 - But lots of people think we should have gotten Golden Tate. Why do people think that was a great pick but that this pick is, for some reason, reserved only for a "part-time player"?
#3 - Why would his neck get broken? The kid's smaller, but he's not nearly the same size as Dante Hall. He's big and he's strong. I worry a lot more about Charles' durability than I do McCluster's.

1. I can only speak for myself, by Golden Tate is a legit WR3 on day one, with the upside to be a WR2. McCluster is a RB being converted to WR3, who's upside is likely - a WR3.

2. Dante Hall weighed around 185 pounds. 15-18 pounds more than McCluster. And comparing him to Dante isn't good for the argument, considering Hall never amounted to anything at WR, and was only a factor in the return game for approximately 3 years.

Marcellus
04-25-2010, 06:31 PM
Let's just call it what it is, we made several picks to make Matt Cassel look competent because Scott Pioli is not going to admit he screwed that up.

We picked more defensive players than offense. If that argument were true we would have went offense in round 1.

We have used a shit ton of picks on defensive linemen the last few years at the expense of offensive play makers.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:31 PM
mecca aside, Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were both starters for the Bills last season, and will be slated to start again, and should improve substantially with a season under their belt this year.

Jamon Merdith also took a lot of snaps for them and played credibly as an injury replacement at Rt, while Demtrius Bell looked like a guy with real upside who just needs to learn technique at LT.

That's 4 guys on one team.

He's going to tell you some of those guys don't count....here it comes.

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:31 PM
OTW did you watch any of the senoir bowl practices?

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:32 PM
McCluster has played WR. He was a WR his first two years at Ole' Miss.

And the slot receiver is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to transition into. Nickel backs play off and you typically don't have to worry about bumps and getting off the line of scrimmage, which is easily the biggest adjustment in the NFL. You also get a lot of screens and underneath stuff, which doesn't require flawless route running.

I guess that Ole Miss fan that was posting here is a blatant liar.

And considering that Alabama is as close as I come to having an allegiance to a CFB team, I see a lot of SEC football - and no, he wasn't.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:33 PM
So I think we're getting carried away with the notion of two tight end sets.

I don't think it will happen frequently, but two TE sets and 2 WR sets will happen enough that will make your idea of McCluster seeing 67% of snaps on downs 1-3 impossible.

As I said, I would fuckign love to be wrong, because he would pretty much have to be a rookie sensation for this to happen over 16 weeks..meaning that even with the 36th pick overall he was a hell of a pick. I would love that, I just think the odds are grim.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:33 PM
OTW did you watch any of the senoir bowl practices?

PRACTICE? WE TALKIN' 'BOUT PRACTICE?

http://blog.pennlive.com/lvsports/2007/08/iverson.jpg

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 06:34 PM
As I said, all you have to do is do the math. For us to achieve your concept of Mcluster being on the field 67% of downs 1-3 it would be impossible.

We would have to play 3wr sets 2/3 downs of (1-3)

He would have to be in every one of them.

He would have to not get tired or hurt doing this.

We could never not use anything but a 3wr formation...


It just isn't going to work out like this....We will probably use a standard 2 wr formation at least 40% of downs 1-3 for one thing.

I could go on but I am hoping you will get the point and give this one up.

You can run a 2-WR set with dual backs and motion McCluster off to the slot, based on the matchup. You can use McCluster as the 2nd RB, which I expect to happen a few years in when Jones is through. You can use McCluster in a 2-TE set with 2 WRs and either run McCluster or motion him out of the backfield from an empty backfield set. You can use him in the wildcat. You're basically giving him slot receiver reps and adding in the capability to run in dual-back sets or as the primary RB when Charles needs a blow.

And I expect he'll return kicks, while Arenas returns punts.

It's not a full-time player. But they'll find a way to get the kid on the field an awful lot.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:34 PM
mecca aside, Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were both starters for the Bills last season, and will be slated to start again, and should improve substantially with a season under their belt this year.

Jamon Merdith also took a lot of snaps for them and played credibly as an injury replacement at Rt, while Demtrius Bell looked like a guy with real upside who just needs to learn technique at LT.

That's 4 guys on one team.

Levitre was taken in the second, so he doesn't count. Wood was a guard, Meredith was picked up on waivers from GB and Bell might be good someday.

None of those guys were particularly special and I think it's safe to say (especially in the case of Meredith, since they had a chance to claim him) that the Chiefs didn't like any of them.

And as I mentioned earlier, I'd take Asamoah over any of them.

It's like the linebacker thing this year: I don't think that any of the guys available at #36 or #50 were "special" players, just good prospects.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:34 PM
He's going to tell you some of those guys don't count....here it comes.

Dane can be stubborn and a pit bull., but I also think he's also reasonable when presnted with legitimate evidence.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:35 PM
I need to go cook some dinner.

I'll check back in later tonight or tomorrow.

Unlike some of you, my opinions won't change.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 06:36 PM
I like Benn a lot...I think Benn fell because of Juice Williams.

Tate? Meh. I do like Tate...but I think he has a much better chance of being a bust than McCluster...

I can't believe everyone isn't simply STOKED that we added a guy with McCluster's skill set and we're going to use him in the slot...

That guy is amazing in space...and that's what the Chiefs are going to try and do...get him the ball and let him do his thing...

It'll make Cassel's job a hell of a lot easier, too.

McCluster can MOST DEFINITELY make Cassel a better player...

Does Tate possess that ability? I don't think so...

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:36 PM
PRACTICE? WE TALKIN' 'BOUT PRACTICE?

http://blog.pennlive.com/lvsports/2007/08/iverson.jpg

Oh come on man his transition to slot WR won't be as difficult as you suggest it's not like those guys were fucking around at Senoir Bowl practice. The guy is a Wr.

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:37 PM
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DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:37 PM
Lets see...

Louis Vazquez is a starting guard for the Chargers
Antoine Caldwell would have been a solid pick
TJ Lang started games at LT for the Packers
Jamon Meredith started games at RT for Buffalo and could have even been had after the draft


Is that a sufficient enough list or should I add more?

Vasquez was a 6th and he was forced into starting duty. He wasn't exactly "special", he was just a guy.

TJ Lang was so good that he's been replaced by Bulaga.

Jamon Meredith was waived and picked up by the Bills who have arguably the worst line in all of football.

The bottom line is that while last year's offensive line crop was touted as "deep", none of those guys found from rounds 3-7 were exactly "special" players or players that the Chiefs should "regret" passing on.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:38 PM
You can run a 2-WR set with dual backs and motion McCluster off to the slot, based on the matchup. You can use McCluster as the 2nd RB, which I expect to happen a few years in when Jones is through. You can use McCluster in a 2-TE set with 2 WRs and either run McCluster or motion him out of the backfield from an empty backfield set. You can use him in the wildcat. You're basically giving him slot receiver reps and adding in the capability to run in dual-back sets or as the primary RB when Charles needs a blow.

And I expect he'll return kicks, while Arenas returns punts.

It's not a full-time player. But they'll find a way to get the kid on the field an awful lot.

I agree with everything you said for the most part. (Except in a 2 TE set you usually only have 1WR so thats an extra man on the field) I agree he will be useful as a situational player, all of those things you mentioned are what I consider to be situational. I am not saying he wont be good for those roles, what I am saying is he won't be an every down (67% of downs 1-3) type of player....I think we shouldve drafted a non-situational player with 2a.

All of that being said, I would love to be wrong...

Marcellus
04-25-2010, 06:38 PM
mecca aside, Eric Wood and Andy Levitre were both starters for the Bills last season, and will be slated to start again, and should improve substantially with a season under their belt this year.

Jamon Merdith also took a lot of snaps for them and played credibly as an injury replacement at Rt, while Demtrius Bell looked like a guy with real upside who just needs to learn technique at LT.

That's 4 guys on one team.

So the Bills who finished behind KC in EVERY offensive category have a bunch of potentially good players on their OL that should only get better after a year under their belt.

This belief is based on what?

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 06:39 PM
I need to go cook some dinner.

I'll check back in later tonight or tomorrow.

Unlike some of you, my opinions won't change.

that's because you, Mecca and hamas aren't Chiefs fans...you're just pessimistic assholes who like to think they know more than they really do...

it's funny that everyone loves what the Chiefs did except for the pessimistic little band of know-it-alls on chiefsplanet.com who apparently don't, well, know anything.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 06:39 PM
As I said, all you have to do is do the math. For us to achieve your concept of Mcluster being on the field 67% of downs 1-3 it would be impossible.

We would have to play 3wr sets 2/3 downs of (1-3)

He would have to be in every one of them.

He would have to not get tired or hurt doing this.

We could never not use anything but a 3wr formation...(in those 2/3 of the situations)


It just isn't going to work out like this....We will probably use a standard 2 wr formation at least 40% of downs 1-3 for one thing.

I could go on but I am hoping you will get the point and give this one up.

As I pointed out already you are not counting special teams

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:39 PM
Levitre was taken in the second, so he doesn't count. Wood was a guard, Meredith was picked up on waivers from GB and Bell might be good someday.

None of those guys were particularly special and I think it's safe to say (especially in the case of Meredith, since they had a chance to claim him) that the Chiefs didn't like any of them.

And as I mentioned earlier, I'd take Asamoah over any of them.

It's like the linebacker thing this year: I don't think that any of the guys available at #36 or #50 were "special" players, just good prospects.

We aren't talking about who Pioli would have picked, we are talking about guys that were in last years draft that were passed that would have helped.

I couldn't remember what rounds any of these guys were taken, I simply named guys that would have helped this O-Line, regardless of what Pioli might have done.

Were they special?
No.

Were they pretty good?
Yes.

And who the hell was Pioli going to pick up on waivers?

Leaves falling from the fucking tree.

tonyetony
04-25-2010, 06:40 PM
I need to go cook some dinner.

I'll check back in later tonight or tomorrow.

Unlike some of you, my opinions won't change.

Some of your opinions should change if you're faced with the stark reality that they we're dead fucking wrong.

An opinion is just that, not an absolute.

Count Alex's Losses
04-25-2010, 06:41 PM
that's because you, Mecca and hamas aren't Chiefs fans...

I sat next to OTWP for 4 hours last year at the Cowboys game and he is as much a Chiefs fan as anyone...when Bowe caught that TD we had a big gay group hug with TinyE.

STFU

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:41 PM
that's because you, Mecca and hamas aren't Chiefs fans...you're just pessimistic assholes who like to think they know more than they really do...

it's funny that everyone loves what the Chiefs did except for the pessimistic little band of know-it-alls on chiefsplanet.com who apparently don't, well, know anything.

Meh I don't love wha the Chiefs did I think they could have drafted some other good players. This team could hav been a great young team instead I think they compete for six to eight wins.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:41 PM
Unlike some of you, my opinions won't change.

I guess this is kind of off topic, but if your opinions won't change, why do you bother coming here? To give us all your opinion and try to change everyone else's opinion without considering the opinions of others?

That is pretty strange if you ask me....something to keep in mind when reading your posts for sure.

Chocolate Hog
04-25-2010, 06:41 PM
I sat next to OTWP for 4 hours last year at the Cowboys game and he is as much a Chiefs fan as anyone...when Bowe caught that TD we had a big gay group hug with TinyE.

STFU

I would kiss you after every Chiefs touchdown.

Mecca
04-25-2010, 06:42 PM
Vazquez was a 4th and won the Chargers RG job, how is that being forced into starting?

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:42 PM
We aren't talking about who Pioli would have picked, we are talking about guys that were in last years draft that were passed that would have helped.

I couldn't remember what rounds any of these guys were taken, I simply named guys that would have helped this O-Line, regardless of what Pioli might have done.

Were they special?
No.

Were they pretty good?
Yes.

And who the hell was Pioli going to pick up on waivers?

Leaves falling from the fucking tree.

No, I understand what you're saying. But Mecca said that Pioli did the same think as last year, ignoring the "strength" of the draft, this year drafting offense instead of defense. Last year, he drafted defense instead of offense (in this case, Mecca specifically stated offensive line).

What I'm saying is that last year's class that was touted as being so great, really wasn't "great" from rounds 3-7. Urbick's a failure in Pittsburgh. Very few of the later picks are anything other than just "guys", nothing the Chiefs (or us as fans) should regret they passed on.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:43 PM
So the Bills who finished behind KC in EVERY offensive category have a bunch of potentially good players on their OL that should only get better after a year under their belt.

This belief is based on what?

Based on the fact that their all talented guys.

4 rookies on an offensive line in a game where anyone will tell you that good line play requires chemistry, and chemistry takes time to develop.

But then you knew that, I'm sure.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 06:43 PM
I sat next to OTWP for 4 hours last year at the Cowboys game and he is as much a Chiefs fan as anyone...when Bowe caught that TD we had a big gay group hug with TinyE.

STFU

well then he should watch that video Billay just posted and realize...

McCluster >> Tate

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:43 PM
As I pointed out already you are not counting special teams

Digler go back and read the other posts, we were talking only about downs 1-3 which last time I checked did not include special teams.

(edit if you want to include special teams and 4th downs the number will go MUCH much lower than 55% though, let alone 67%))

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 06:44 PM
Vazquez was a 4th and won the Chargers RG job, how is that being forced into starting?

the Chargers were one of the worst run blocking teams in the NFL...

which is one reason LDT is a HUGE sleeper for the Jets this year...

1200 yards and 15 TDs

People who take Shonn Greene in the 1st round are going to be disappointed...

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 06:45 PM
I agree with everything you said for the most part. (Except in a 2 TE set you usually only have 1WR so thats an extra man on the field) I agree he will be useful as a situational player, all of those things you mentioned are what I consider to be situational. I am not saying he wont be good for those roles, what I am saying is he won't be an every down (67% of downs 1-3) type of player....I think we shouldve drafted a non-situational player with 2a.

All of that being said, I would love to be wrong...

A lot of people would have been satisfied with taking a slot receiver like Tate. I would have. And McCluster can give you a LOT more reps than Tate. And the difference between the two is that McCluster gives the defense some pause as to whether a play could be a run or a pass. A lot of teams have been running 4-WR sets. There's a distinct difference between running that play out of an empty backfield with no RBs, and having a 3-WR set with a RB who motions into a 4th WR slot. Same goes with any running down.

So again, I think you're ruling out multiple instances where he lines up as a RB then motions into the slot. And 2-3 years down the road when he's playing a lot of snaps as the primary RB, when Charles needs a rest.

He could potentially get about the amount of reps as a slot receiver + #2 back. Not 67%. But a pretty hefty workload.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:45 PM
Vazquez was a 4th and won the Chargers RG job, how is that being forced into starting?

Actually, Vasquez was a third and he won the job because Forney was injured.

And I hardly think he was "special", considering the Chargers inability to run the ball successfully last year.

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 06:46 PM
Jamaal Charles and Dexter McCluster on the field at the same time is a scary fucking thought for any defensive coordinator...

McCluster is going to make Cassel look so much better...

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:48 PM
Based on the fact that their all talented guys.

4 rookies on an offensive line in a game where anyone will tell you that good line play requires chemistry, and chemistry takes time to develop.

But then you knew that, I'm sure.

I think Wood will develop into a solid player and it's possible that Meredith does as well. I can't believe that the Bills will go into this season without making a trade for a left tackle because it's a serious need for them.

That being said, I'm not upset that the Chiefs didn't take one of those guys, especially considering the moves they've made this offseason.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:48 PM
I like Benn a lot...I think Benn fell because of Juice Williams.

Tate? Meh. I do like Tate...but I think he has a much better chance of being a bust than McCluster...

I can't believe everyone isn't simply STOKED that we added a guy with McCluster's skill set and we're going to use him in the slot...

That guy is amazing in space...and that's what the Chiefs are going to try and do...get him the ball and let him do his thing...

It'll make Cassel's job a hell of a lot easier, too.

McCluster can MOST DEFINITELY make Cassel a better player...

Does Tate possess that ability? I don't think so...

Hootie. Listen.

I'd be thrilled with it if we hadn't passed on guys that would solve our pass rushing and/or ILB issue for the next decade.

It will make most fans happy, because they loved Grandpa Dick's Circus Offense, and were content scoring 30 PPG and losing.

I want to see some balance, and as I showed earlier, though no one wants to admit it, the offense was much farther along going into Thrusday night than the defense was.

Der Flöprer
04-25-2010, 06:48 PM
that's because you, Mecca and hamas aren't Chiefs fans...you're just pessimistic assholes who like to think they know more than they really do...

it's funny that everyone loves what the Chiefs did except for the pessimistic little band of know-it-alls on chiefsplanet.com who apparently don't, well, know anything.

Do you really look at me that way? Because I don't love what we did. If you do, that's fine, but it would surprise me.

I don't hate what we did the way I did on Friday and Saturday, and I'm not driving post after post about it because it's pointless IMO.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:49 PM
McCluster is going to make Cassel look so much better...

I sure as hell hope so.

Cassel needs all the help he can get.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:49 PM
I guess this is kind of off topic, but if your opinions won't change, why do you bother coming here? To give us all your opinion and try to change everyone else's opinion without considering the opinions of others?

That is pretty strange if you ask me....something to keep in mind when reading your posts for sure.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. Just defending my own.

dirk digler
04-25-2010, 06:50 PM
Digler go back and read the other posts, we were talking only about downs 1-3 which last time I checked did not include special teams.

(edit if you want to include special teams and 4th downs the number will go MUCH much lower than 55% though, let alone 67%))

ok fair enough

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:50 PM
No, I understand what you're saying. But Mecca said that Pioli did the same think as last year, ignoring the "strength" of the draft, this year drafting offense instead of defense. Last year, he drafted defense instead of offense (in this case, Mecca specifically stated offensive line).

What I'm saying is that last year's class that was touted as being so great, really wasn't "great" from rounds 3-7. Urbick's a failure in Pittsburgh. Very few of the later picks are anything other than just "guys", nothing the Chiefs (or us as fans) should regret they passed on.

A lot of the guys that many of us wanted to draft on the O-Line went to teams that had solid O-Lines already, so it's unfair to say that we should regret passing on them, becuase we had shit.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:51 PM
Some of your opinions should change if you're faced with the stark reality that they we're dead fucking wrong.

An opinion is just that, not an absolute.

I've been wrong a lot in the past, and have said so when it applies.

I've yet to be proven wrong on anything since Pioli's been hired.

When the day comes, if the day comes, I'll come and eat crow like I did when I was wrong about Carl or any past player.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:52 PM
So again, I think you're ruling out multiple instances where he lines up as a RB then motions into the slot.


No, I took those into account when I said I think he would see much less than 67% of the snaps actually.


And 2-3 years down the road when he's playing a lot of snaps as the primary RB, when Charles needs a rest.


Maybe..but that isn't what I was talking about...It is a huge IF, as the average RB's career is only about 3 years or so anyhow.



He could potentially get about the amount of reps as a slot receiver + #2 back. Not 67%. But a pretty hefty workload.


He isn't the #2 back though. We have Jones and Charles as the 1 and 2. He is the #3. Not sure what your definition of hefty is....but, 50% of the snaps is pretty hefty in my eyes, and I doubt he will even get that. If he does, it will be a good pick.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:54 PM
that's because you, Mecca and hamas aren't Chiefs fans...you're just pessimistic assholes who like to think they know more than they really do...

it's funny that everyone loves what the Chiefs did except for the pessimistic little band of know-it-alls on chiefsplanet.com who apparently don't, well, know anything.

Yep.

I hate this team, that's why I've spent over $25k of my hard-earned money to attend games, at home and on the road, over just the last 7 years alone.

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 06:54 PM
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. Just defending my own.

But then why come onto a message board just to give your opinion and defend it, when you admit that your opnion will never change? To hear yourself talk? To constantly believe that everyone else is wrong and you are the only correct person?

It is very strange, you must admit..

Pitt Gorilla
04-25-2010, 06:55 PM
Hootie. Listen.

I'd be thrilled with it if we hadn't passed on guys that would solve our pass rushing and/or ILB issue for the next decade.

It will make most fans happy, because they loved Grandpa Dick's Circus Offense, and were content scoring 30 PPG and losing.

I want to see some balance, and as I showed earlier, though no one wants to admit it, the offense was much farther along going into Thrusday night than the defense was.Just to be clear here, there were guys available at our pick in the second round who would have definitely solved our pass rushing and/or ILB issues for the next decade? If that is correct, who specifically are these players? I'm a bit shocked that these guys weren't drafted higher, given their guaranteed long-term production.

milkman
04-25-2010, 06:56 PM
I think Wood will develop into a solid player and it's possible that Meredith does as well. I can't believe that the Bills will go into this season without making a trade for a left tackle because it's a serious need for them.

That being said, I'm not upset that the Chiefs didn't take one of those guys, especially considering the moves they've made this offseason.

I watched the Bills a lot last year, becuase od Wood and Meredith specifically.

Andy Levitre was the best of the four rookies.

Wood looked lost a few times, but did show his talent as well, and will probably become a stud.

But Demetrius Bell showed the athletic ability that some said he had going onto the draft, and said he was a project that had huge upside.

He was that.

He struggled more than the rest, but his upside is off the charts.

He could, if they show patience and stick with him, become a top 5 LT.

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 06:57 PM
Hootie. Listen.

I'd be thrilled with it if we hadn't passed on guys that would solve our pass rushing and/or ILB issue for the next decade.

It will make most fans happy, because they loved Grandpa Dick's Circus Offense, and were content scoring 30 PPG and losing.

I want to see some balance, and as I showed earlier, though no one wants to admit it, the offense was much farther along going into Thrusday night than the defense was.

But I think you're ruling out the fact that we'll have plenty of opportunity to find these guys over the next few years.

I don't think this even remotely says that Pioli is satisfied with the front 7. I think we'll be aggressive in free agency next offseason, where we can probably find a pass rusher and maybe a Nose Tackle like Wilfork. And I think that over the next two drafts and the offseason, we can fix the ILB problem. And while you'll overpay for those guys, at least you know exactly what you'll get.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:57 PM
But then why come onto a message board just to give your opinion and defend it, when you admit that your opnion will never change? To hear yourself talk? To constantly believe that everyone else is wrong and you are the only correct person?

It is very strange, you must admit..

Admitting you were wrong is changing your opinion?

Seems to me that whatever you hold an opinion on would have to become somewhat factual or generally accepted, or you wouldn't admit you were wrong.

At that point, it's no longer an opinion, is it?

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 06:58 PM
A lot of the guys that many of us wanted to draft on the O-Line went to teams that had solid O-Lines already, so it's unfair to say that we should regret passing on them, becuase we had shit.

Hey, I was on that bandwagon as well.

I'm just admitting that while the Chiefs did have serious needs along the offensive line, one year later, it doesn't seem like the Chiefs were passing up sure-fire Pro Bowlers in rounds 3-7.

Which also makes it likely the all of these defensive players available won't be sure-fire Pro Bowlers as well.

You can scout the shit out of these guys for 8 years, from high school to college and at the end of the day, be wrong about how they project to the NFL.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 06:59 PM
But I think you're ruling out the fact that we'll have plenty of opportunity to find these guys over the next few years.

I don't think this even remotely says that Pioli is satisfied with the front 7. I think we'll be aggressive in free agency next offseason, where we can probably find a pass rusher and maybe a Nose Tackle like Wilfork. And I think that over the next two drafts and the offseason, we can fix the ILB problem. And while you'll overpay for those guys, at least you know exactly what you'll get.

It doesn't take 5 years to rebuild a football team, no matter how poor it is.

Pioli and Jim Schwartz started their rebuilding process at the same time.

From the looks of it, Schwartz is well ahead of Pioli - though no one will admit it because of Detroit's history.

No one wants to admit that a franchise like Detroit is doing a better job rebuilding than we are.

OnTheWarpath58
04-25-2010, 07:00 PM
Dinner time. I'm out..

Short Leash Hootie
04-25-2010, 07:01 PM
yeah Detroit did great when they passed on Oher for Pettigrew!

what did they do this year?

Draft a tackle the drafturbators like in the 5th round!

Whoohooo! I bet he's a sure thing.

milkman
04-25-2010, 07:02 PM
But I think you're ruling out the fact that we'll have plenty of opportunity to find these guys over the next few years.

I don't think this even remotely says that Pioli is satisfied with the front 7. I think we'll be aggressive in free agency next offseason, where we can probably find a pass rusher and maybe a Nose Tackle like Wilfork. And I think that over the next two drafts and the offseason, we can fix the ILB problem. And while you'll overpay for those guys, at least you know exactly what you'll get.

I think this idea that people have that next year's free agency is going to be some kind of deep pool of talent is off base.

With no cap this year, guys with big contracts that teams feel are not players that will play to that contract will be cut or traded, if possible.

The guys that teams want to keep will probably stay put when a new agreement is in place, because teams are going to have tons of money under the cap to keep those guys.

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 07:02 PM
No, I took those into account when I said I think he would see much less than 67% of the snaps actually.

Maybe..but that isn't what I was talking about...It is a huge IF, as the average RB's career is only about 3 years or so anyhow.
I think you're talking about a RB like Adrian Peterson or Priest Holmes. AP takes way too much punishment as a back and Priest played in a league where 350+ carries was the norm.

He isn't the #2 back though. We have Jones and Charles as the 1 and 2. He is the #3. Not sure what your definition of hefty is....but, 50% of the snaps is pretty hefty in my eyes, and I doubt he will even get that. If he does, it will be a good pick.
Usually, RBs are slowly introduced to the league to get used to NFL workloads. Like when AP was limited to only 240 carries his rookie year. Jones has 1-2 years here max. In 2 years, I think McCluster will take on a Sproles role, where he takes a pretty decent amount of carries per game. If the goal is to prepare for 3 years from now, rather than trying to win today, that's a valuable asset for the Chiefs.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 07:03 PM
It doesn't take 5 years to rebuild a football team, no matter how poor it is.

Pioli and Jim Schwartz started their rebuilding process at the same time.

From the looks of it, Schwartz is well ahead of Pioli - though no one will admit it because of Detroit's history.

No one wants to admit that a franchise like Detroit is doing a better job rebuilding than we are.

The difference is that Pioli isn't going to be happy until he's got HIS 53 guys in place.

It's a huge gamble, IMO, but it's one that Clark Hunt is obviously willing to take.

milkman
04-25-2010, 07:03 PM
Hey, I was on that bandwagon as well.

I'm just admitting that while the Chiefs did have serious needs along the offensive line, one year later, it doesn't seem like the Chiefs were passing up sure-fire Pro Bowlers in rounds 3-7.

Which also makes it likely the all of these defensive players available won't be sure-fire Pro Bowlers as well.

You can scout the shit out of these guys for 8 years, from high school to college and at the end of the day, be wrong about how they project to the NFL.

At the end of the day, regardless of how any of these guys pan out, the Chiefs didn't try.

DaneMcCloud
04-25-2010, 07:05 PM
At the end of the day, regardless of how any of these guys pan out, the Chiefs didn't try.

With the exception of Colin Brown, you're right. But I don't think they could have set their "plan" in motion if they had taken more offensive lineman.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the reality.

I'm still shocked that they didn't address the center position this year but apparently, they feel they can count on Weigman for a full season.

I hope they're right...

Pawnmower
04-25-2010, 07:06 PM
Admitting you were wrong is changing your opinion?


Yes, it is...That is kind of the definition...


If your opinion is that 'it is a mistake to draft X player' and then he does well and you change your opinion to 'that really was a good pick' or the facts prove themselves to differ from what your opinion was then your original opinion on the matter was wrong...

If you think 'it wont be dangerous to jump off of this bridge into the water' then you break your neck, your opinion turned out to be wrong.


Seems to me that whatever you hold an opinion on would have to become somewhat factual or generally accepted, or you wouldn't admit you were wrong.

At that point, it's no longer an opinion, is it?

You are making arguments that are opinions...like 'x player is a mistake' etc...that kind of opinion (or argument) can be debated...(Google some opinion papers)...It is called Logic 101

You aren't here saying 'I love the smell of roses after they are jammed into my boyfriend's asshole' which is the kind of opinion that is not arguable without knowing whether or not you are telling the truth.

You are confusing the former with the latter.

chiefzilla1501
04-25-2010, 07:08 PM
It doesn't take 5 years to rebuild a football team, no matter how poor it is.

Pioli and Jim Schwartz started their rebuilding process at the same time.

From the looks of it, Schwartz is well ahead of Pioli - though no one will admit it because of Detroit's history.

No one wants to admit that a franchise like Detroit is doing a better job rebuilding than we are.

As we all know, Pioli shit the bed in 2009. There's no excuse for that. That's the main reason we're behind Detroit. But the 2009 season is behind us now. Grill me if you want, but even though he shit the bed in 2009, I'm fine if we get it right every year going forward.

And I like the approach to the 2010 draft. It wasn't a panic reflex to make up for last year's mistakes. It wasn't a panic to fill needs. It was based on sticking to their board and picking guys at the right value. You may not like the pick, but pretty consistently everyone outside of KC seems to believe that very few of these guys were reaches.