PDA

View Full Version : Other Sports Better player RIGHT NOW?


Priest31kc
05-06-2010, 11:01 PM
Kobe or Lebron?

pr_capone
05-06-2010, 11:02 PM
Lebron... and what is scary is that he is going to get better.

-King-
05-06-2010, 11:24 PM
Kobe.



I'm tired of having this discussion daily LMAO.

Put LeBron in a triangle and see if he does remotely the same shit he does right now. Look at Kobe in 05 and 06 when he was running the same offense as LeBron. Killed the league.

And also, until LeBron gets some hardware, he'll always be second fiddle.

rtmike
05-06-2010, 11:25 PM
Lebron... and what is scary is that he is going to get better.

This.

KevB
05-06-2010, 11:29 PM
Kobe.



I'm tired of having this discussion daily LMAO.

Put LeBron in a triangle and see if he does remotely the same shit he does right now. Look at Kobe in 05 and 06 when he was running the same offense as LeBron. Killed the league.

And also, until LeBron gets some hardware, he'll always be second fiddle.

That was 4 years ago. Kobe has put on a lot of miles since then. The question was "right now", not "at their peak".

Miles
05-06-2010, 11:34 PM
Lebron and it really isn't that close.

Priest31kc
05-06-2010, 11:56 PM
Good to see everyone agrees with me, Im in an argument with my best friend. He's a Kobe lover, and is obviously bias.

Chiefs Rool
05-06-2010, 11:57 PM
Lebron

ThaVirus
05-07-2010, 12:12 AM
Bron Bron.

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 12:12 AM
Kobe without a doubt. I am a big fan of both players but I think Kobe is the more complete player.

LeBron STILL is an inconsistent jumpshooter, is poor on the FT line, is not a good on ball defender (he can be when he wants to), and has a very poor back to the basket game which is surprising because of how big the guy is. He is a better passer than Kobe though. LeBron is a great player but he relies too much on his freak athleticism.

Kobe has a good jumper, is a good FT shooter, is a great defender (when he is not being overly aggressive playing passing lanes), and can score from ANYWHERE on the floor.

Kobe kinda reminds me of MJ and LeBron reminds me of Magic on steroids.

Miles
05-07-2010, 12:16 AM
Good to see everyone agrees with me, Im in an argument with my best friend. He's a Kobe lover, and is obviously bias.

Are you friends with Skip Bayless?

ThaVirus
05-07-2010, 12:17 AM
Are you friends with Skip Bayless?

I HATE Skip Bayless!

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 12:18 AM
Also Kobe is a warrior. The dude has been playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand the past two years and he still is playing great.

LeBron's elbow goes numb and he is grabbing it after every missed shot.

BWillie
05-07-2010, 12:19 AM
I'd say INDIVIDUALLY, Lebron James. You can't argue w/ the #'s he puts up, and he is a complete player. He can shoot, he can defend, he can distribute, and rebound. But Kobe wins. He has the will. I think Kobe edges Lebron out as being more VALUABLE. If that makes any sense, because it really doesn't. I am praying for a Cavs vs Lakers NBA FINALS

pr_capone
05-07-2010, 12:26 AM
LeBron STILL is an inconsistent jumpshooter,

James:
768-1528 for .503 FG%

Kobe:
716-1569 for .456 FG%

better at 3 pointers too

James:
129-387 for .333 3pt %

Kobe:
99-301 for .329 3pt %

is poor on the FT line,

I will grant you that... Kobe is much better at the FT line. That said, James got to the line more often. In fact, James shot 773 free throws to Kobe's 541.

is not a good on ball defender (he can be when he wants to), and has a very poor back to the basket game which is surprising because of how big the guy is.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5165424

"with the Cleveland Cavaliers' LeBron James making it for the second straight year."

2 consecutive All-Defensive team awards are not good enough for you?

HotRoute
05-07-2010, 12:29 AM
The question was who's the better player not who's on the better team, lebron has won back to back MVP's and Kobe is on a sick team .

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 12:30 AM
LeBron does put up some freakish #'s but that has a lot to do with how the Cavs play. LeBron dominates the ball on most possessions like Nash and Chris Paul so that helps him get his assists.

If he were in the Triangle his assist totals wouldn't be as high because that offense requires a lot of ball movement and one player doesn't really dominate the ball.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 12:32 AM
are you comparing this because of kobes injury and now lebrons injury struggles?

it appears that RIGHT NOW, kobe is dealing with his injuries much better than lebron

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 12:35 AM
James:
768-1528 for .503 FG%

Kobe:
716-1569 for .456 FG%

better at 3 pointers too

James:
129-387 for .333 3pt %

Kobe:
99-301 for .329 3pt %


I will grant you that... Kobe is much better at the FT line. That said, James got to the line more often. In fact, James shot 773 free throws to Kobe's 541.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5165424

"with the Cleveland Cavaliers' LeBron James making it for the second straight year."

2 consecutive All-Defensive team awards are not good enough for you?

Again, this is is with a broken finger and Kobe takes many, many more jumpshots than Lebron. Lebron drives much more often, hence the higher FTAs.

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 12:41 AM
James:
768-1528 for .503 FG%

Kobe:
716-1569 for .456 FG%

better at 3 pointers too

James:
129-387 for .333 3pt %

Kobe:
99-301 for .329 3pt %



I will grant you that... Kobe is much better at the FT line. That said, James got to the line more often. In fact, James shot 773 free throws to Kobe's 541.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5165424

"with the Cleveland Cavaliers' LeBron James making it for the second straight year."

2 consecutive All-Defensive

LeBron does not have a good midrange game and even after seeing those 3pt #'s I think Kobe is a better 3pt shooter. LeBron's FG% is inflated because a lot of his baskets are layups/dunks and that is why he shoots more FT's than Kobe.

LeBron gets a lot of steals and blocks but that doesn't mean he is a good on ball defender. He made the All Defensive Team because of his #'s not because he is a lockdown defender. Artest and Shane Battier deserved to be on the All Defensive Team over LeBron.

pr_capone
05-07-2010, 12:45 AM
Again, this is is with a broken finger and Kobe takes many, many more jumpshots than Lebron. Lebron drives much more often, hence the higher FTAs.

I don't really care how he gets the points. The simple fact is that he gets the points. Would I like him to be a better at the jump shot? Definitely. Does that take away for his freakish ability to find the rim? No. Not only that, but Lebron is taking higher percentage shots than Kobe is.

Their career FG percentages show this.

James - .475
Kobe - .455

Your argument is that Kobe is the better player because he can hit a jump shot?

I'd rather have the guy who is hitting just as many shots but more consistently.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 12:50 AM
I don't really care how he gets the points. The simple fact is that he gets the points. Would I like him to be a better at the jump shot? Definitely. Does that take away for his freakish ability to find the rim? No. Not only that, but Lebron is taking higher percentage shots than Kobe is.

Their career FG percentages show this.

James - .475
Kobe - .455

Your argument is that Kobe is the better player because he can hit a jump shot?

I'd rather have the guy who is hitting just as many shots but more consistently.

sure dude, if its all about fg % and not shot making ability than i guess Tyrus Thomas is the greatest player in the game...

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 12:51 AM
LeBron is going to have to get a good jumpshot sooner or later. He won't always be such a freak athlete, eventually he will lose a few steps.

LeBron is better at shot selection than Kobe is (I think Kobe has gotten better at it the past few years though). That is another reason for the higher career FG%, Kobe used to take some very stupid shots earlier in his career.

Silock
05-07-2010, 12:54 AM
I'm going Kobe. I'm aware that the numbers somewhat favor LeBron right now, but I think the better leader and more valuable player is Kobe. Yes, that's intangible and you can't measure it, but I think the results speak for themselves. Kobe has rings. LeBron has none. I hope he gets one someday, but it probably won't be until Kobe is retired or LeBron moves out of Cleveland.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 12:55 AM
Lebron also doesnt play in the triangle which stresses throwing the ball low into the post to your big men. gasol and bynum are the ones getting the high % shots on the lakers, not kobe.

who does lebron refer to, Z or a busted up Shaq?

pr_capone
05-07-2010, 12:56 AM
LeBron does not have a good midrange game and even after seeing those 3pt #'s I think Kobe is a better 3pt shooter. LeBron's FG% is inflated because a lot of his baskets are layups/dunks and that is why he shoots more FT's than Kobe.

Fine. Kobe has a better mid range game. LeBron DOMINATES above the rim.

How is his FG inflated because his shots are layups and dunks??? That is like arguing that a baseball players .ba average was inflated because he hit mostly home runs!

I don't care how he gets the points, the fact is that he gets his and in the process makes all the other people on the court look like they belong in a pick up league.

LeBron gets a lot of steals and blocks but that doesn't mean he is a good on ball defender. He made the All Defensive Team because of his #'s not because he is a lockdown defender. Artest and Shane Battier deserved to be on the All Defensive Team over LeBron.

Ok, because he does not play your brand of D, a "lockdown defender", then he is not a good at D?

"is not a good on ball defender (he can be when he wants to),"

You are faulting him because he is better at stealing balls and blocking shots as opposed to his ability to play on the ball. How does that make sense? He gets shit done defensively, gets more steals, gets more blocks, gets more rebounds, has more assists on average over his career.

pr_capone
05-07-2010, 12:58 AM
sure dude, if its all about fg % and not shot making ability than i guess Tyrus Thomas is the greatest player in the game...

Exactly... because PPG does not factor in at all.

You got me there.

James: 27.8 career ppg
Kobe: 25.3 career ppg
Thomas: 8.8 career ppg

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 01:01 AM
if you want to talk about RIGHT NOW, Kobe is better than Lebron.

Lebron had a better regular season and now, when his team needs him the most and he finally has to overcome adversity with his elbow, hes struggling.

kobes injuries have been even worse, and hes been dealing with them all year, and hes still kickin ass

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 01:03 AM
Exactly... because PPG does not factor in at all.

You got me there.

James: 27.8 career ppg
Kobe: 25.3 career ppg
Thomas: 8.8 career ppg

Kobe could score 35 a night, EASY.

When he has Gasol and Odom he doesnt have to.

Dude, you should probably ease off the gas with this one.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 01:04 AM
pulling out stats does not help your cause unless you know how to use them...

pr_capone
05-07-2010, 01:04 AM
Kobe could score 35 a night, EASY.

When he has Gasol and Odom he doesnt have to.

Dude, you should probably ease off the gas with this one.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 01:07 AM
Fine. Kobe has a better mid range game. LeBron DOMINATES above the rim.

How is his FG inflated because his shots are layups and dunks??? That is like arguing that a baseball players .ba average was inflated because he hit mostly home runs!

Because layups and dunks are easier shots than fallaway jumpers or jumpshots in general.


Ok, because he does not play your brand of D, a "lockdown defender", then he is not a good at D?

"is not a good on ball defender (he can be when he wants to),"

You are faulting him because he is better at stealing balls and blocking shots as opposed to his ability to play on the ball. How does that make sense? He gets shit done defensively, gets more steals, gets more blocks, gets more rebounds, has more assists on average over his career.

Just because you get steals doesn't mean you are a good defender. How many times have you seen someone try and play the passing lane and miss and the player he was supposed to be guarding slips in for an easy layup? I would rather have somebody who can force somebody to take contested jumpshots than somebody who is too aggressive and gives up easy buckets.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 01:08 AM
Personally, if you combine intangibles, heart, skill, and leadership I think D Wade is the best out of all 3. RIGHT NOW. Call me crazy

Miles
05-07-2010, 01:47 AM
sure dude, if its all about fg % and not shot making ability than i guess Tyrus Thomas is the greatest player in the game...

What the hell are you talking about? Thomas is a terrible scorer and his FG% is very rough for a PF.

chiefzilla1501
05-07-2010, 02:10 AM
Because layups and dunks are easier shots than fallaway jumpers or jumpshots in general.



Just because you get steals doesn't mean you are a good defender. How many times have you seen someone try and play the passing lane and miss and the player he was supposed to be guarding slips in for an easy layup? I would rather have somebody who can force somebody to take contested jumpshots than somebody who is too aggressive and gives up easy buckets.

They are if you're talking about open-court layups/dunks. It's not the slightest bit easy when you have to dribble penetrate. It's unfair to say that one's more important than the other. Lebron can't hit some of the jumpers as consistently as Kobe can, but Kobe also doesn't have the power to create some of the layups/dunks that Lebron can.

To get those layups/dunks, you generally have to beat your guy off the dribble and maneuver your way around either a Power Forward or Center who are usually camped out in the lane. And those layups aren't usually straight-up layups--they're usually off-balanced, often off-hand.

Reerun_KC
05-07-2010, 02:15 AM
Where is the option in the poll for "Which one is most likely to anal rape a girl in a hotel?"

BWillie
05-07-2010, 02:19 AM
Where is the option in the poll for "Which one is most likely to anal rape a girl in a hotel?"

She was just mad cuz Kobe jizzed on her face. Everybody knows this.

Reerun_KC
05-07-2010, 02:21 AM
She was just mad cuz Kobe jizzed on her face. Everybody knows this.

Your signature freaking cracks me up!

chiefzilla1501
05-07-2010, 02:31 AM
Lebron also doesnt play in the triangle which stresses throwing the ball low into the post to your big men. gasol and bynum are the ones getting the high % shots on the lakers, not kobe.

who does lebron refer to, Z or a busted up Shaq?

No, but he's also frequently played in an offense that requires creativity to get open shots. I think Mike Brown might have one of the worst half-court offenses I've ever seen from an NBA coach. The offense typically relies on Lebron to make some kind of a move to the basket and create shots for his teammates. Pretty tough to be a wizard with points and assists when the defense knows exactly what you're going to do.

The triangle offense may make higher % shots for Kobe's teammates, but Lebron gets a ton of open shots for his teammates by creating them. The difference is that Kobe's supporting cast hits those shots. Moe Williams is horribly inconsistent and Lebron doesn't have the benefit of a major downlow presence on offense. If you can fault Lebron for anything it's that he trusts his teammates too much when sometimes you wish he'd take over games and "ballhog." But that doesn't excuse when NBA players miss simple shots that Lebron creates for them.

chiefzilla1501
05-07-2010, 02:32 AM
Where is the option in the poll for "Which one is most likely to anal rape a girl in a hotel?"

LA Chief Fan: "pulling out stats does not help your cause unless you know how to use them..."

Who wins in the pulling out contest?

salame
05-07-2010, 03:03 AM
smush parker

pr_capone
05-07-2010, 03:10 AM
They are if you're talking about open-court layups/dunks. It's not the slightest bit easy when you have to dribble penetrate. It's unfair to say that one's more important than the other. Lebron can't hit some of the jumpers as consistently as Kobe can, but Kobe also doesn't have the power to create some of the layups/dunks that Lebron can.

To get those layups/dunks, you generally have to beat your guy off the dribble and maneuver your way around either a Power Forward or Center who are usually camped out in the lane. And those layups aren't usually straight-up layups--they're usually off-balanced, often off-hand.

http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss175/progressinacan/SlowClap.gif

SNR
05-07-2010, 03:33 AM
I love how people say, "Lebron is relying on his freakish athletic ability."

Of course he's relying on it. Jesus Christ. What do you expect him to do? He's such an awesome weapon to create shots and HIT a high percentage of them, this shouldn't even be close.

Take all the jumpshooters you want. That's cute. Lebron's a fucking tank with mad ball skills. I'll take that any day over what Kobe's got. Whatever it is you want to call it.

Lebron James is going to win multiple championships in his career, and when he does, the haters will be unable to dog him like they do now.

chiefzilla1501
05-07-2010, 03:45 AM
if you want to talk about RIGHT NOW, Kobe is better than Lebron.

Lebron had a better regular season and now, when his team needs him the most and he finally has to overcome adversity with his elbow, hes struggling.

kobes injuries have been even worse, and hes been dealing with them all year, and hes still kickin ass

Dude, sort of ridiculous that you say "finally playing with adversity" when you have no idea what kind of injury he's playing with. It sounds to me like the injury is very serious. He's played the majority of the series shooting in the inside post with his left hand and there's an underground report that's suggesting that he can barely even support the weight of a basketball. "Adversity" is playing a tough opponent who's on fire or playing on the road against a dominant home-court opponent. Adversity ISN'T your ability to play injured, especially since there are completely different degrees to how much your injury can affect your play.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-07-2010, 03:58 AM
are you comparing this because of kobes injury and now lebrons injury struggles?

it appears that RIGHT NOW, kobe is dealing with his injuries much better than lebron

Someone is putting way too much stock in Marc Stein and Bill Simmons' conversation.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-07-2010, 04:04 AM
The fact of the matter is that Kobe doesn't have the explosion he did a couple of years ago. That's gonna happen once you've played that many games in the NBA. And for as good as he is, he can still be an obstinate prick who sinks his team for a game at a time.

In some ways, comparing these two is like comparing '87 Jordan to '97 Jordan. One was a much more explosive and dynamic player. The other was far more efficient.

The interesting thing is that Kobe has a similar skill set to the late Jordan while also still having the petulance of the early Jordan.

Lebron has a closer skill set to the early Jordan along with the same shitty teammates.

If Kobe wasn't on the Lakers, they'd win 40-45 games.

If Lebron wasn't on the Cavs, they'd win 20-25 games.

sandynme
05-07-2010, 05:11 AM
amen brother

warpaint*
05-07-2010, 05:27 AM
The fact of the matter is that Kobe doesn't have the explosion he did a couple of years ago. That's gonna happen once you've played that many games in the NBA. And for as good as he is, he can still be an obstinate prick who sinks his team for a game at a time.

In some ways, comparing these two is like comparing '87 Jordan to '97 Jordan. One was a much more explosive and dynamic player. The other was far more efficient.

The interesting thing is that Kobe has a similar skill set to the late Jordan while also still having the petulance of the early Jordan.

Lebron has a closer skill set to the early Jordan along with the same shitty teammates.

If Kobe wasn't on the Lakers, they'd win 40-45 games.

If Lebron wasn't on the Cavs, they'd win 20-25 games.

Word.

BigMeatballDave
05-07-2010, 07:14 AM
Kobe without a doubt. So, you are also a moron when it comes to basketball too?

BigCatDaddy
05-07-2010, 08:11 AM
Lebron does more with MUCH MUCH less.

Short Leash Hootie
05-07-2010, 08:31 AM
the only people who would answer Kobe have obvious Lakers bias...that's the only reason someone could possibly think Kobe was better than LeBron.

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 10:07 AM
So, you are also a moron when it comes to basketball too?

The question was who is the best basketball player, not who is the best athlete.

Von Dumbass
05-07-2010, 10:13 AM
the only people who would answer Kobe have obvious Lakers bias...that's the only reason someone could possibly think Kobe was better than LeBron.

I root for players more than teams in the NBA. Kobe and LeBron are my two favorite players in the league.

I would think you being such a big Jordan fan you would see how similar Kobe plays to MJ.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 10:14 AM
The fact of the matter is that Kobe doesn't have the explosion he did a couple of years ago. That's gonna happen once you've played that many games in the NBA. And for as good as he is, he can still be an obstinate prick who sinks his team for a game at a time.

In some ways, comparing these two is like comparing '87 Jordan to '97 Jordan. One was a much more explosive and dynamic player. The other was far more efficient.

The interesting thing is that Kobe has a similar skill set to the late Jordan while also still having the petulance of the early Jordan.

Lebron has a closer skill set to the early Jordan along with the same shitty teammates.

If Kobe wasn't on the Lakers, they'd win 40-45 games.

If Lebron wasn't on the Cavs, they'd win 20-25 games.

I swear, LeBron could have a damn All-Star team around him and people would still say he has a crap supporting cast because he dominates the ball like no one else in the league.

Lamar Odom is a 6th man and a bit of a choker. Artest can't shoot yet still keeps throwing up shots. Bynum's always nursing some kind of injury.

The only truly premier teammate Bryant has is Gasol and it's fair to note that Gasol never won a playoff game before he came to LA.

LeBron has Jamison as his Gasol. Jamison compliments LeBron every bit as well as Gasol compliments Kobe. LeBron needs someone with a perimeter game that can also hit the blocks to take some defensive pressure on him. That's exactly what Jamison provides. Look at what Jamison did on his own, compare it with what Gasol did on his own, and you'll see that those two guys are really extremely similar players in terms of raw ability (obviously not skill set, but ability). And then you'll see that their respective skill sets compliment their superstar teammates equally well. Yet all anyone wants to say is that LeBron doesn't have anyone around him.

Shaq's old, he only plays about 23 minutes/game. Yet he's still only averaging 2.5 PPG fewer than Bynum and only about 1.5 fewer boards while Bynum plays 30 minutes/gm (if he's not injured). His shooting percentage is almost identical to Bynum. His assists are higher and his blocks are comparable. Shaq may have aged in dog years, but he's playing at a level absolutely comparable to a constantly gimpy Andrew Bynum.

Derek Fisher is the most over-exposed PG in the league. He's slow, his outside game is gone and he doesn't even bring the ball up much. He's the most easily beaten PG in the league defensively. I think I could get the lane on this guy at this point. Mo Williams is a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than Derek Fisher. It's not even close.

Do you think anyone in the league would trade Anderson Varejao for Ron Artest? Nope. In fact, I'm betting few teams in the leage would trade Varejao for Odom.

The benches are comparable, with the key bench players for Cleveland being Ilgauskas, Hickson and West; for the Lakers Odom, Farmar and Brown. Hickson's really just a younger Odom, they play a very similar game. Odom's more talented, but he's just completely rudderless and braindead. It's hard to compare the rest, but there's no clear disconnect.

It's a complete myth that LeBron is playing with this team full of scrubs whereas Kobe is playing on a virtual All-Star team. Kobe has some great names around him, but most of them are aging poorly.

LeBron has a team that is built exclusively around him. He brings the ball up, he controls the defense. That team is built to make him look good. Meanwhile, Kobe's club is built around the Triangle and Kobe works within it. Kobe does far FAR more to make his teammates better than LeBron does, but he doesn't get the assist numbers to prove it because the Triangle isn't a one-pass offense. The Cleveland 'wait till LeBron draws a double and shot a jumper after he kicks it to you' offense is.

Yet we'll still hear that LeBron makes his teammates better while Kobe is just a soul-less chucker.

In a one on one game, I think LeBron beats Kobe. But you know what? Wake me when he's won something. His teams haven't been nearly as bad as the excuses that have been made for him. If I'm building a team to win an NBA championship, Kobe's still the first guy in the league I take.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 10:24 AM
Someone is putting way too much stock in Marc Stein and Bill Simmons' conversation.

actually i ripped it off adrian wojnarowski.

so f u :D

SNR
05-07-2010, 10:30 AM
I swear, LeBron could have a damn All-Star team around him and people would still say he has a crap supporting cast because he dominates the ball like no one else in the league.

Lamar Odom is a 6th man and a bit of a choker. Artest can't shoot yet still keeps throwing up shots. Bynum's always nursing some kind of injury.

The only truly premier teammate Bryant has is Gasol and it's fair to note that Gasol never won a playoff game before he came to LA.

LeBron has Jamison as his Gasol. Jamison compliments LeBron every bit as well as Gasol compliments Kobe. LeBron needs someone with a perimeter game that can also hit the blocks to take some defensive pressure on him. That's exactly what Jamison provides. Look at what Jamison did on his own, compare it with what Gasol did on his own, and you'll see that those two guys are really extremely similar players in terms of raw ability (obviously not skill set, but ability). And then you'll see that their respective skill sets compliment their superstar teammates equally well. Yet all anyone wants to say is that LeBron doesn't have anyone around him.

Shaq's old, he only plays about 23 minutes/game. Yet he's still only averaging 2.5 PPG fewer than Bynum and only about 1.5 fewer boards while Bynum plays 30 minutes/gm (if he's not injured). His shooting percentage is almost identical to Bynum. His assists are higher and his blocks are comparable. Shaq may have aged in dog years, but he's playing at a level absolutely comparable to a constantly gimpy Andrew Bynum.

Derek Fisher is the most over-exposed PG in the league. He's slow, his outside game is gone and he doesn't even bring the ball up much. He's the most easily beaten PG in the league defensively. I think I could get the lane on this guy at this point. Mo Williams is a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than Derek Fisher. It's not even close.

Do you think anyone in the league would trade Anderson Varejao for Ron Artest? Nope. In fact, I'm betting few teams in the leage would trade Varejao for Odom.

The benches are comparable, with the key bench players for Cleveland being Ilgauskas, Hickson and West; for the Lakers Odom, Farmar and Brown. Hickson's really just a younger Odom, they play a very similar game. Odom's more talented, but he's just completely rudderless and braindead. It's hard to compare the rest, but there's no clear disconnect.

It's a complete myth that LeBron is playing with this team full of scrubs whereas Kobe is playing on a virtual All-Star team. Kobe has some great names around him, but most of them are aging poorly.

LeBron has a team that is built exclusively around him. He brings the ball up, he controls the defense. That team is built to make him look good. Meanwhile, Kobe's club is built around the Triangle and Kobe works within it. Kobe does far FAR more to make his teammates better than LeBron does, but he doesn't get the assist numbers to prove it because the Triangle isn't a one-pass offense. The Cleveland 'wait till LeBron draws a double and shot a jumper after he kicks it to you' offense is.

Yet we'll still hear that LeBron makes his teammates better while Kobe is just a soul-less chucker.

In a one on one game, I think LeBron beats Kobe. But you know what? Wake me when he's won something. His teams haven't been nearly as bad as the excuses that have been made for him. If I'm building a team to win an NBA championship, Kobe's still the first guy in the league I take.Whatever. :rolleyes:

Lebron consistently puts up points, assists, blocks, rebounds that are sky high numbers during the playoffs. His play doesn't drop, it improves. What more do you want him to fucking do?

He IS going to win some championships in this league whether it's with Cleveland or not. So fuck that.

Remember when the Lakers sucked after Phil Jackson and Shaq left? That was Kobe's team, mind you. Lebron would have had that Laker team playing with 50-55 wins I'll betcha, just like he did when Shasha fucking Pavlovic was a starter on that Cleveland team.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 10:33 AM
I think the most interesting question RIGHT NOW is, what going to happen this offseason? Specifically if the Cavs lose before they get to the Finals.

Will Lebron bolt? NY or Chicago? Will D Wade team up with him? How sick would that be?
Where does Bosh go? This will be the most exciting NBA offeseason evah.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Whatever. :rolleyes:

Lebron consistently puts up points, assists, blocks, rebounds that are sky high numbers during the playoffs. His play doesn't drop, it improves. What more do you want him to ****ing do?

He IS going to win some championships in this league whether it's with Cleveland or not. So **** that.

Remember when the Lakers sucked after Phil Jackson and Shaq left? That was Kobe's team, mind you. Lebron would have had that Laker team playing with 50-55 wins I'll betcha, just like he did when Shasha ****ing Pavlovic was a starter on that Cleveland team.

"Whatever" is about what I figured.

I mean, nevermind the fact that the 'awful' Lakers team you're referring to was actually 24-19 when it's coach quit for health reasons. Kobe got hurt shortly thereafter, as did Odom and the interim coach went 10-29 to end the season.

Explain to me how LeBrons cast is so much worse than Kobe's.

I don't expect anyone to marshall an actual argument here; it might require some legwork. Why address the point when you can bring such powerful arguments as "I'll betcha" to the table...

And you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Kobe took a team with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook and Chris Mihm as significant starters to 45 wins coming out of a far tougher conference than the East. Honest to God, read those names again. That's arguably the biggest collection of shit ever assembled.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Your wasting your breath dude. You take the most polarizing player in the league on the most polarizing team in the league and haters will be haters no matter what.

Im surprised its taken this long and somebody hasnt mentioned MJ could school them both, 2 on 1, right now.

BigRedChief
05-07-2010, 10:51 AM
I saw Lebron play in Chicago back in March. The dude has serious skills. It looked like he was playing with those guys. He couls make a move anytime or anywhere he wanted and burn them.

BigCatDaddy
05-07-2010, 10:52 AM
I think the most interesting question RIGHT NOW is, what going to happen this offseason? Specifically if the Cavs lose before they get to the Finals.

Will Lebron bolt? NY or Chicago? Will D Wade team up with him? How sick would that be?
Where does Bosh go? This will be the most exciting NBA offeseason evah.

And Dirk might be leaving big D.

BigCatDaddy
05-07-2010, 10:59 AM
Your wasting your breath dude. You take the most polarizing player in the league on the most polarizing team in the league and haters will be haters no matter what.

Im surprised its taken this long and somebody hasnt mentioned MJ could school them both, 2 on 1, right now.

There is no player even worthy of mentioning in the same breath as Jordan right now. If Lebron can pull off 5 or 6 titles in a row, then maybe he might have a case. Kobe has lead 1 time to a title and Lebron 0 thus far. Jordan dominated statistically for over a decade and lead a team that probably would have won 8 titles in a row, maybe more if he hadn't left the 1st and 2nd time.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 11:00 AM
There is no player even worthy of mentioning in the same breath as Jordan right now. If Lebron can pull off 5 or 6 titles in a row, then maybe he might have a case. Kobe has lead 1 time to a title and Lebron 0 thus far. Jordan dominated statistically for over a decade and lead a team that probably would have won 8 titles in a row, maybe more if he hadn't left the 1st and 2nd time.

YES! I had the under at 65 posts. I WIN!

SNR
05-07-2010, 11:03 AM
"Whatever" is about what I figured.

I mean, nevermind the fact that the 'awful' Lakers team you're referring to was actually 24-19 when it's coach quit for health reasons. Kobe got hurt shortly thereafter, as did Odom and the interim coach went 10-29 to end the season.

Explain to me how LeBrons cast is so much worse than Kobe's.

I don't expect anyone to marshall an actual argument here; it might require some legwork. Why address the point when you can bring such powerful arguments as "I'll betcha" to the table...

And you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Kobe took a team with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook and Chris Mihm as significant starters to 45 wins coming out of a far tougher conference than the East. Honest to God, read those names again. That's arguably the biggest collection of shit ever assembled.That's not the argument. The argument is who is the better player. I never said shit about Kobe, and actually, I really like the guy, and I don't hate the Lakers. I fucking hate the Spurs, the Jazz can die in a fire for constantly coming up short, and I'm indifferent to the Suns. But I like the Lakers right now, and hope they represent the West this year in the finals.

I have a question for you: Why do you think the Cavaliers haven't won a championship with Lebron James yet? Is it because Lebron isn't a good enough player? That seems to be what you're trying to say.

boogblaster
05-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Who cares .. it's fricking B-ball ....

BigCatDaddy
05-07-2010, 11:12 AM
YES! I had the under at 65 posts. I WIN!

It's just a fact bro. The Roder Federer orTiger Woods haven't come along yet to take the crown of the sports greatest away yet from Mike. Sometimes a Babe Ruth just rules the sport for a long long time.

Amnorix
05-07-2010, 11:57 AM
LeBron, and it's not even close.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 12:06 PM
That's not the argument. The argument is who is the better player. I never said shit about Kobe, and actually, I really like the guy, and I don't hate the Lakers. I ****ing hate the Spurs, the Jazz can die in a fire for constantly coming up short, and I'm indifferent to the Suns. But I like the Lakers right now, and hope they represent the West this year in the finals.

I have a question for you: Why do you think the Cavaliers haven't won a championship with Lebron James yet? Is it because Lebron isn't a good enough player? That seems to be what you're trying to say.

Honestly? Because he hasn't developed quite the force of will that Kobe has and perhaps not the confidence in himself to know that, even if he misses, who gives a shit? He's still LeBron James.

Think of it as the "I'm Keith Hernandez" moment. Kobe Bryant will take any shot with the game on the line because he knows that even if he misses, he's still the biggest swinging dick out there. He doesn't care if the media dogs him for it. He doesn't care if the public does. Ultimately I think he's so comfortable with where he is on the basketball landscape that he'll just do whatever the hell he thinks is necessary if it means winning the ballgame. I'm gonna take this shot, because I'm Keith Hernandez. I want that in my superstar, I want that in my best player.

People forget that a lot of the time Jordan's teammates hated the guy. There were fights in practice, there were glares on the court. All that stuff that Kobe gets killed for now, Jordan did himself and he did it because he just didn't care. He's Michael Jordan, he wants to win and if you aren't part of the solution he's going to eviscerate you. Jordan was wired unlike any athlete I think I've ever seen. I always thought he was similar to Roger Clemens, though now it's hard to say if that was just the roids making Roger a crazy person. Kobe's the nearest I've seen to that 'fuck everyone if it means winning' edge that Jordan brought.

I don't think LeBron has that. I think that he's concerned that his public image may take a hit if he fails or that he may not be seen as a golden teammate if he doesn't defer on the occasional game winner. I've seen LeBron become entirely too deferential in some key moments throughout his career. Yes, he's also had occasions like the Pistons game a few years back when he scored something ridiculous 28 of his teams final 32 points. But he hasn't developed that consistent attitude just yet.

He's not a single-minded assassin out there and Kobe is. Is LeBron physically more gifted? Without question. But does he have the hard-wired killer's mentality to his game that Kobe does? Nope, I don't think he does.

I think the '07 finals is pretty demonstrative. LeBron had an abysmal finals. I think he shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 33% and has as many turnovers as he had assists. He simply didn't rise to the occasion and in fact, seemed overwhelmed by it. He just didn't seem like he knew he was the best guy on the court.

Will he get there? Probably, but it seems like that's something that a lot of guys have or they don't. Jordan had it from day 1 in the NBA. He had it when he was taking championship winning shots at North Carolina as a Junior. Kobe had it even before he had the skills to back it up (remember his airball against the Jazz in his second season?) With that in mind, I don't think you can say for certain that LeBron will.

Until LeBron shows me that he not only won't recoil from critical moments, but that he relishes them, I'll take Kobe.

Or until Kobe loses his legs entirely, which is probably only another year or so away.

Stevie.Wonder
05-07-2010, 12:34 PM
Until LeBron shows me that he not only won't recoil from critical moments, but that he relishes them, I'll take Kobe.

.

From a fan perspective, you've got a serious beef here, imo.

Otherwise, LeBron has Kobe in spades. LeBron swoops in to block lay-ups on defense. He takes scraps and resembles the Big O. He's bigger, faster, and better. And he's doing it while being pre-ordained. He's fighting it a lot more than Kobe, who people were merely curious about. LeBron was EXPECTED to be.

If LeBron, individually, wins a championship, that is akin to MJ doing it. Kobe was handed a lot of opportunities. He's a ball-hog, over-rated as a gamer, and an over-al dick, imo.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 01:03 PM
From a fan perspective, you've got a serious beef here, imo.

Otherwise, LeBron has Kobe in spades. LeBron swoops in to block lay-ups on defense. He takes scraps and resembles the Big O. He's bigger, faster, and better. And he's doing it while being pre-ordained. He's fighting it a lot more than Kobe, who people were merely curious about. LeBron was EXPECTED to be.

If LeBron, individually, wins a championship, that is akin to MJ doing it. Kobe was handed a lot of opportunities. He's a ball-hog, over-rated as a gamer, and an over-al dick, imo.

Then you just don't know what you're talking about.

He was a ball-hog when he had to be (again, look at the teams around him when he got his 'ball-hog' tag). People cite LeBron's assist numbers when they talk about what a great teammate he is. Answer this question -- when did Jordan really start getting tagged as a ball-hog? About 1987-1990; also when he had 2 of the best assist seasons of his career. Assists are as much about the offense you run as they are about being unselfish. LeBron's assists are because he runs a one-pass offense, much as Jordans were pre-triangle. You'll note that Jordan's assists actually went down when Jackson started coaching because of interior passing of the triangle. Kobe's never run a one-pass offense and because of the constant interior passing, he doesn't get a lot of assists.

For the past several seasons, Kobe has taken about 20 shots/gm. For the 2 seasons prior to that, when his team was dogshit, he took significantly more. Would you have preferred Kwame Brown or Smush Parker be taking those? Nope, and he didn't really care if the fans and media hounded him for it. He took more shots because that's what he needed to do to win games. In the seasons where he's had a real team around him, he's a 20 shot/game guy.

Who do you think has averaged more shots/game over their career? The ball-hog Bryant, or the consummate teammate LeBron? LeBron's taken 20.8 shots/game to Bryant's 19.3.

Yeah, Bryant's a ballhog allright. Even if you take out the first 3 years of his career and include the 2 seasons post-Shaq when he had nobody around him, he averaged 21.45 shots per game. Over an 82 game season, that's a whopping 50 more shots than LeBron would take using his career average. Take out the '05/'06 season where Bryant had an NBDL team around him, and even his first 3 seasons where he was not a primary option (so his shots were down) and you get an average of...wait for it....20.8 shots per game. That number fairly familiar?

If Bryant's a ballhog, LeBron's no better.

'Overrated as a gamer' just doesn't make sense. Bryant has played with torn shoulders, sprained ankles, broken fingers; c'mon. If there's anything that undermines someone's credibility in this discussion it's calling out Bryant as a gamer. That kid is the single biggest competitor in the NBA and there's not a close 2nd, especially not now that Iverson is gone. If someone honestly tries to argue that Kobe Bryant's rep as a competitor is over-hyped, they just don't know shit about the game.

Meanwhile, LeBron hit the deck three games ago and grabbed his LEFT SHOULDER! Look at the replay, dude grabbed his off arm when he hit the ground. The he decides later that it's his right arm that's hurt. That arm sure looked fine down the stretch in game 1. Have you seen the shootaround clip where he's out there chucking up 30 footers righthanded in practice but when he saw the camera rolling, he tucked it under like it was hurt? If he's injured at all, it's just your standard late-season soreness. But now he has that excuse that the media constantly loves to give him.

In short - you just don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about. You may actually be Stevie Wonder because all you did was spew the same ol' tripe.

Garcia Bronco
05-07-2010, 01:03 PM
Lebron might be better now....but barely. Kobe has 4 rings.

SNR
05-07-2010, 01:18 PM
Lebron might be better now....but barely. Kobe has 4 rings.That last ring was all his. He did it.

The previous three? Those teams were all about Shaq, not Kobe.

http://nbcsportsmedia2.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040418/040418_shaq_vmed_7a.widec.jpg

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 01:37 PM
That last ring was all his. He did it.

The previous three? Those teams were all about Shaq, not Kobe.


Also not true.

Shaq was a liability down the stretch. Would Kobe have won the rings without Shaq? Nope. Would Shaq have won the rings without Kobe? Absolutely not.

Look at Kobe's playoff performances -- without his shotmaking down the stretch and the 25-5-5 he was putting up every night, Shaq doesn't get those rings either. It was unquestionably a joint effort.

Short Leash Hootie
05-07-2010, 02:14 PM
I root for players more than teams in the NBA. Kobe and LeBron are my two favorite players in the league.

I would think you being such a big Jordan fan you would see how similar Kobe plays to MJ.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it...

Kobe has never been as clutch as MJ...ever.

MJ owned the 4th quarter like no one in NBA history...did he EVER let the Bulls down when they needed him to make a shot in the playoffs?

Hardly.

It was incredible. And he never had bitch ass pussy fits where he decides not to shoot the ball for an entire game to prove some sort of point to the media...

I hate the comparison.

Short Leash Hootie
05-07-2010, 02:16 PM
Kobe is guardable now...

He can still dominate...and does...but you can draw up a defensive scheme to contain him.

That's impossible with LeBron...and it wasn't even impossible with Jordan.

Short Leash Hootie
05-07-2010, 02:16 PM
Kobe is guardable now...

He can still dominate...and does...but you can draw up a defensive scheme to contain him.

That's impossible with LeBron...and it wasn't even impossible with Jordan.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 03:24 PM
Kobe is guardable now...

He can still dominate...and does...but you can draw up a defensive scheme to contain him.

That's impossible with LeBron...and it wasn't even impossible with Jordan.

That's not entirely true, you just need the right personnel.

The Magic are a hellish matchup for the Cavs precisely because they can guard LeBron. If they use Lewis or Carter on the wings to present length, they'll get LeBron off balance as he drives, or at least disrupt his drive. That gives Howard enough time to get across for support defense underneath.

LeBron's a physical marvel, but Howard might be every bit the physical specimen that LeBron is. He's able to put a body on LeBron and contest the shot while also hanging with him because his combination of length and lateral quickness (for a big) allows him to stay in front of LeBron.

That will often force LeBron into settling for mid-range jumpshots. For everything James does well, he's, at best, an average jump-shooter. He'll also fall into funks where he truncates his follow through and leaves everything short (its hideous).

He's not impossible to guard, you just need some length on the perimeter and an athletic big. The Magic can do it and the Lakers can do so to a lesser degree because Bynum's generally hobbling and Gasol doesn't have the stones to body up LeBron.

It's not easy, it takes a concerted effort, but it can be done. I actually think Jordan was even more difficult because his first two steps were better than LeBron's. With Jordan, go ahead and try to put length out there, he's probably still going to blow around both layers of defense before you get a look at him. And even if he doesn't, that fallaway jumpshot from the elbow is something that LeBron doesn't have as a fallback if his drive is stopped.

Jordan was a more difficult cover than LeBron, IMO.

-King-
05-07-2010, 03:46 PM
I think the most interesting question RIGHT NOW is, what going to happen this offseason? Specifically if the Cavs lose before they get to the Finals.

Will Lebron bolt? NY or Chicago? Will D Wade team up with him? How sick would that be?
Where does Bosh go? This will be the most exciting NBA offeseason evah.

Money on Bosh to OKC.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 03:54 PM
Money on Bosh to OKC.

That would be a nasty squad.

I guess you'd put Bosh at the 4 with Durant at the 3, Harden at the 2 and Westbrook at the 1. They really like Jeff Green though. If they sign Bosh, they'd almost have to put him at the 5 with Green at the 4. At that point, they're still extremely undersized.

They'd be a tough matchup because they're unique, but I don't think they'd be able to handle the rigors of a physical playoff series very well.

Wade would be a better fit, IMO. But he's not going to OKC. Ultimately I doubt Bosh will either because with 3 Max Level deals available in NY (2) and Chicago, LeBron, Wade and Bosh will snap those up. And if LeBron stays in Cleveland, I don't see any way Bosh doesn't go to NY.

Silock
05-07-2010, 04:05 PM
Just wanted to pop in and say that DJ's left nut is OWNING this discussion right now.

I've never seen such a well-reasoned and well-though-out defense of Kobe over LeBron. If I weren't already convinced, I would be by now.

Saul Good
05-07-2010, 04:39 PM
Kobe could score 35 a night, EASY.

When he has Gasol and Odom he doesnt have to.

Dude, you should probably ease off the gas with this one.

Let me get this straight.

Kobe has better teammates who score more than LeBron's teammates. Why does LeBron get more assists, then?

Kobe has better teammates who should free him up for more open shots. Why does LeBron shoot for a higher percentage, then?

LeBron just takes the easy shots. Why does he score more than Kobe, then?


All of your arguments are one big circle of fail. If they are of equal talent, the guy with the better teammates should score fewer points but have a higher shooting percentage and more assists.

LeBron has a higher shooting percentage, scores more points, and has more assists.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2010, 04:47 PM
They do run different offenses. You know that don't you?

-King-
05-07-2010, 04:53 PM
Let me get this straight.

Kobe has better teammates who score more than LeBron's teammates. Why does LeBron get more assists, then?

Kobe has better teammates who should free him up for more open shots. Why does LeBron shoot for a higher percentage, then?

LeBron just takes the easy shots. Why does he score more than Kobe, then?


All of your arguments are one big circle of fail. If they are of equal talent, the guy with the better teammates should score fewer points but have a higher shooting percentage and more assists.

LeBron has a higher shooting percentage, scores more points, and has more assists.

Theres a reason Scottie Pippen has the highest assists per game in a triangle offense at a whopping 7 APG...

That alone should tell you how much team oriented the triangle is versus what LeBron runs which is run down the lane and dish to to a perimeter guy.

Amnorix
05-07-2010, 05:00 PM
I think the '07 finals is pretty demonstrative. LeBron had an abysmal finals. I think he shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 33% and has as many turnovers as he had assists. He simply didn't rise to the occasion and in fact, seemed overwhelmed by it. He just didn't seem like he knew he was the best guy on the court.



LeBron was what? 22 then? A third year NBA player? Big difference between that and 25 and 6th year.

Kobe had Shaq to be the star as he grew up in the NBA and went to the Finals the first few times. LeBron had, uhh, LeBron.

Amnorix
05-07-2010, 05:02 PM
Theres a reason Scottie Pippen has the highest assists per game in a triangle offense at a whopping 7 APG...

That alone should tell you how much team oriented the triangle is versus what LeBron runs which is run down the lane and dish to to a perimeter guy.

Just for the record, you honestly think that if you polled every NBA head coach and GM for a hypothetical draft where everyone is trying to win THIS year (so ignore age), where every NBA player is available, that Kobe gets drafted ahead of LeBron?

Yeah, no.

SNR
05-07-2010, 05:08 PM
I'd love to see this argument back when Michael Jordan was a 6th year player.

"That guy just isn't clutch. Doesn't have that "it" factor that it takes to win multiple championships. That Bulls team keeps adding players around him and he still doesn't take them over the top to win it all. He hasn't done it yet, and it will take him awhile to win his first."

Simply Red
05-07-2010, 05:13 PM
I voted Bryant, but I think it was impulsive, it's still fairly close IMO. But James is sailing, and will eventually soar.

ehh, *shrug*

-King-
05-07-2010, 05:15 PM
In 5 years we'll be having this same argument over LeBron and Durant.

ChiefsCountry
05-07-2010, 05:24 PM
Kobe has the better shot but LeBron is the better all-around player. Wade is my personal favorite though. But still LeBron/Kobe argument is like deciding which 10 model is hotter.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 05:30 PM
LeBron was what? 22 then? A third year NBA player? Big difference between that and 25 and 6th year.

Kobe had Shaq to be the star as he grew up in the NBA and went to the Finals the first few times. LeBron had, uhh, LeBron.

It was LeBron's 4th year in the league, he'd started over 300 NBA games as an unquestioned star. Inexperience doesn't wash - after 300 NBA games, you're a seasoned vet and will be expected to play like one.

To put that in perspective -- Kobe Bryant started his 300th game in the '02-'03 season. So before Kobe had started his 300th game, he had 3 championship rings and a reputation as a post-season closer. At 25 with over 600 career NBA starts to his name, LeBron is still looking for that killer instinct.

And let's not use age as an excuse either. LeBron came into the league built like a 26 year old. His body has not changed much at all. In fact, his game hasn't really evolved much either. That's my biggest beef with LeBron -- where has he improved his game? The weaknesses he started with are the same weaknesses he has now (mid-range jumper; surprisingly average handles). His strengths haven't gotten any stronger, though his supporting cast has.

If LeBron had Kobe's single-minded dedication to winning, there's no way he could be stopped. He'd have developed a mid-range jumper by now. He'd have improved his ballhandling. He'd have taken that turnaround that made MJ so good and made it his own. Good lord, can you imagine how good he'd be if he had that club in his bag? He has the frame and the ball skills for a baby-hook; God help us all.

There's so much he could've done with his game to make himself completely unstoppable. Instead, he's still almost the same player he came in as. He's still a guy that relies on hard drives to the net and his physical gifts to score.

Again, he's a great player. As a pure 'player' he probably is the best in the league. Like I said, 1 on 1 and with no stakes, he's the guy I'd pick over Kobe. But if I'm building a championship team for 1 season, Kobe gets that nod until proven otherwise.

It's the attitude that gives the edge to Kobe.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 05:34 PM
In 5 years we'll be having this same argument over LeBron and Durant.

I'm gonna be honest, Durant is the only guy in the league that could "score 35 a night, EASY"...

He's the best pure scorer out there right now. He can be a liability defensively and his court vision needs a TON of work, but that kid has the ability to score like few in the league ever had.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 05:37 PM
I'd love to see this argument back when Michael Jordan was a 6th year player.

"That guy just isn't clutch. Doesn't have that "it" factor that it takes to win multiple championships. That Bulls team keeps adding players around him and he still doesn't take them over the top to win it all. He hasn't done it yet, and it will take him awhile to win his first."

And when he beat the best, he got his due.

LA and Cleveland are very comparable this season. If Cleveland is able to win a title, then I'll concede that the torch has been passed.

Time will always remain undefeated, Kobe wasn't going to be the best in the league forever. He's lost at least a step this season, maybe 2. He's smarter than he's ever been out there, but the first step that made him so dynamic is gone.

Kobe gets by off guile, finesse and force of will. If this season's playoffs show that it's no longer good enough to get him by the likes of LeBron James, I'll tip my cap to the new King. At this point, I think Kobe still has enough gas in the tank to fend off all comers.

But if James falls short again, I don't want to hear shit about how his team wasn't any good because that is absolutely false.

JASONSAUTO
05-07-2010, 05:41 PM
It was LeBron's 4th year in the league, he'd started over 300 NBA games as an unquestioned star. Inexperience doesn't wash - after 300 NBA games, you're a seasoned vet and will be expected to play like one.

To put that in perspective -- Kobe Bryant started his 300th game in the '02-'03 season. So before Kobe had started his 300th game, he had 3 championship rings and a reputation as a post-season closer. At 25 with over 600 career NBA starts to his name, LeBron is still looking for that killer instinct.

And let's not use age as an excuse either. LeBron came into the league built like a 26 year old. His body has not changed much at all. In fact, his game hasn't really evolved much either. That's my biggest beef with LeBron -- where has he improved his game? The weaknesses he started with are the same weaknesses he has now (mid-range jumper; surprisingly average handles). His strengths haven't gotten any stronger, though his supporting cast has.

If LeBron had Kobe's single-minded dedication to winning, there's no way he could be stopped. He'd have developed a mid-range jumper by now. He'd have improved his ballhandling. He'd have taken that turnaround that made MJ so good and made it his own. Good lord, can you imagine how good he'd be if he had that club in his bag? He has the frame and the ball skills for a baby-hook; God help us all.

There's so much he could've done with his game to make himself completely unstoppable. Instead, he's still almost the same player he came in as. He's still a guy that relies on hard drives to the net and his physical gifts to score.

Again, he's a great player. As a pure 'player' he probably is the best in the league. Like I said, 1 on 1 and with no stakes, he's the guy I'd pick over Kobe. But if I'm building a championship team for 1 season, Kobe gets that nod until proven otherwise.

It's the attitude that gives the edge to Kobe.


that was all that needed to be said in this thread. the question was "whos the better PLAYER right now" you have conceded that lebron is.


and i disagree that he's the SAME player now that he was at 18.

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 05:46 PM
that was all that needed to be said in this thread. the question was "whos the better PLAYER right now" you have conceded that lebron is.


and i disagree that he's the SAME player now that he was at 18.

You honestly believe that the question in this poll was intended as "who would win a game of one on one?"

Isiah Rider would've kicked John Stockton's ass at 1-1, does that make Rider a better player?

Give me a break.

And if you'd like to explain how LeBron's game has changed to any appreciable degree, I'm open to listening. I'm a baseball fan first, then football, then hockey, then basketball.

It's my fourth damn sport so I'd gladly listen to someone that can show me some nuance in his game that I have missed.

SNR
05-07-2010, 05:49 PM
And when he beat the best, he got his due.

LA and Cleveland are very comparable this season. If Cleveland is able to win a title, then I'll concede that the torch has been passed.

Time will always remain undefeated, Kobe wasn't going to be the best in the league forever. He's lost at least a step this season, maybe 2. He's smarter than he's ever been out there, but the first step that made him so dynamic is gone.

Kobe gets by off guile, finesse and force of will. If this season's playoffs show that it's no longer good enough to get him by the likes of LeBron James, I'll tip my cap to the new King. At this point, I think Kobe still has enough gas in the tank to fend off all comers.

But if James falls short again, I don't want to hear shit about how his team wasn't any good because that is absolutely false.I agree with you there. The Jamison trade was the final step for them. Lebron now has a great perimeter guy (Moe... although he's inconsistent as fuck in the playoffs) and he can jam inside and make plays with Jamison. Mike Brown should be able to find a way to make that team work.

If they don't... I don't know. Lebron's going to have to move out just to get a change of environment. His supporting cast might not be as good as in Cleveland, but just a different style of play period is going to be the key I think.

ThaVirus
05-07-2010, 05:51 PM
I'm just gonna go ahead and say that DJ's Left Nut has his hand around this whole argument. No one has been able to counter anything he's said with anything more than "I betcha.." retorts. Gotta come up with something better dudes...

DJ's left nut
05-07-2010, 05:57 PM
Just wanted to pop in and say that DJ's left nut is OWNING this discussion right now.

I've never seen such a well-reasoned and well-though-out defense of Kobe over LeBron. If I weren't already convinced, I would be by now.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that DJ's Left Nut has his hand around this whole argument. No one has been able to counter anything he's said with anything more than "I betcha.." retorts. Gotta come up with something better dudes...


Hey, can someone get DaFace in here real quick? I was gonna go make another Dupe account but I can't remember if 3 dupes or 4 is considered poor form.

I'll just stick with these two for right now.

JASONSAUTO
05-07-2010, 06:01 PM
You honestly believe that the question in this poll was intended as "who would win a game of one on one?"

Isiah Rider would've kicked John Stockton's ass at 1-1, does that make Rider a better player?

Give me a break.

And if you'd like to explain how LeBron's game has changed to any appreciable degree, I'm open to listening. I'm a baseball fan first, then football, then hockey, then basketball.

It's my fourth damn sport so I'd gladly listen to someone that can show me some nuance in his game that I have missed.

he has better court vision and shoots the ball better imo then at 18. and he can be MUCH more physical now than then.

and you said (which i also bolded) that he is the best "player" in the league.
Posted via Mobile Device

JASONSAUTO
05-07-2010, 06:05 PM
and ill go ahead and disagree about his handles. he controls the ball on the dribble better than most any player at his size ever.
Posted via Mobile Device

SNR
05-07-2010, 06:13 PM
I'm just gonna go ahead and say that DJ's Left Nut has his hand around this whole argument. No one has been able to counter anything he's said with anything more than "I betcha.." retorts. Gotta come up with something better dudes...I've got a mathematical proof all set up and ready to use. I'm just waiting for the right moment to use it.

-King-
05-07-2010, 06:39 PM
This first quarter is just feeding the hype.


And what moment is that going to be SNR?
Posted via Mobile Device

CoMoChief
05-07-2010, 06:43 PM
Kobe is the better player......much better defender on the perimeter.

Kobe wins championships, that's all that matters at the end of the day. LBJ chokes.

But given LBJ's size, he's probably harder to guard because he creates huge matchup problems because he's much bigger than every guard in the league.

Pioli Zombie
05-07-2010, 07:10 PM
I'd say INDIVIDUALLY, Lebron James. You can't argue w/ the #'s he puts up, and he is a complete player. He can shoot, he can defend, he can distribute, and rebound. But Kobe wins. He has the will. I think Kobe edges Lebron out as being more VALUABLE. If that makes any sense, because it really doesn't. I am praying for a Cavs vs Lakers NBA FINALS
So is ABC

SNR
05-07-2010, 07:40 PM
This first quarter is just feeding the hype.


And what moment is that going to be SNR?
Posted via Mobile DeviceWhen you stop sucking off men.

Bam! Down for the count!

SNR
05-07-2010, 07:43 PM
See that's what I don't get. "The first quarter is just feeding the hype."

So he's only allowed to have 21-point quarters in the 4th? What?

It's not hype. He's a freak of nature. He's a fucking awesome basketball player. There's not one poster on this thread that denies that. We're debating if Lebron or Kobe is better, but I don't see anybody taking anything away from the talents of either player. How is having a good quarter in a playoff game considered hype?

SNR
05-07-2010, 07:45 PM
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qkpcKvxK7tg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qkpcKvxK7tg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

-King-
05-07-2010, 07:45 PM
See that's what I don't get. "The first quarter is just feeding the hype."

So he's only allowed to have 21-point quarters in the 4th? What?

It's not hype. He's a freak of nature. He's a fucking awesome basketball player. There's not one poster on this thread that denies that. We're debating if Lebron or Kobe is better, but I don't see anybody taking anything away from the talents of either player. How is having a good quarter in a playoff game considered hype?
Jeez man. It was a joke.
Posted via Mobile Device

SNR
05-07-2010, 08:07 PM
Jeez man. It was a joke.
Posted via Mobile DeviceOh.

So was my dick-sucking comment, for the record.

chiefzilla1501
05-08-2010, 01:07 AM
That's not entirely true, you just need the right personnel.

The Magic are a hellish matchup for the Cavs precisely because they can guard LeBron. If they use Lewis or Carter on the wings to present length, they'll get LeBron off balance as he drives, or at least disrupt his drive. That gives Howard enough time to get across for support defense underneath.

LeBron's a physical marvel, but Howard might be every bit the physical specimen that LeBron is. He's able to put a body on LeBron and contest the shot while also hanging with him because his combination of length and lateral quickness (for a big) allows him to stay in front of LeBron.

That will often force LeBron into settling for mid-range jumpshots. For everything James does well, he's, at best, an average jump-shooter. He'll also fall into funks where he truncates his follow through and leaves everything short (its hideous).

He's not impossible to guard, you just need some length on the perimeter and an athletic big. The Magic can do it and the Lakers can do so to a lesser degree because Bynum's generally hobbling and Gasol doesn't have the stones to body up LeBron.

It's not easy, it takes a concerted effort, but it can be done. I actually think Jordan was even more difficult because his first two steps were better than LeBron's. With Jordan, go ahead and try to put length out there, he's probably still going to blow around both layers of defense before you get a look at him. And even if he doesn't, that fallaway jumpshot from the elbow is something that LeBron doesn't have as a fallback if his drive is stopped.

Jordan was a more difficult cover than LeBron, IMO.

Yeah, definitely, but nobody will ever compare to Jordan IMO.

While I get what you're saying, here's a clear and simple fact: Lebron gives his teammates a ton of open, clean shots. And they're extremely erratic at hitting them. Moe Williams has been a playoff disaster, Parker is a waste unless he has an open shot deep, and the Center combo of Z/Shaq are a nightmare.

Lebron isn't Jordan. But I'll tell you what, I don't remember Bill Cartwright missing an open shot and between Steve Kerr/John Paxson, those guys were absolutely lethal when the ball was kicked out to them. Jamison is the only playoff guy who can be depended on right now. I think sometimes Lebron tries to hard to create for his teammates, but it's hard to fault a guy who gets his teammates open shots and they continually miss when it matters most.

SNR
05-08-2010, 01:38 AM
Goran Dragic scores 23 in the 4th. That's clutch. Boy, is that clutch. He's mentally in the game when his team needs him.

I think at this point, I'll take Dragic over Lebron.

Short Leash Hootie
05-08-2010, 04:10 AM
I'm just gonna go ahead and say that DJ's Left Nut has his hand around this whole argument. No one has been able to counter anything he's said with anything more than "I betcha.." retorts. Gotta come up with something better dudes...

hey he had a nice rebuttal to my post about LeBron and Kobe and I pos repped him for it and then shut my mouth

Short Leash Hootie
05-08-2010, 04:11 AM
(that doesn't mean my opinion changes on who I think is better...)

Psyko Tek
05-08-2010, 04:59 AM
Steve Nash

is better than both

stfd and stfu

L.A. Chieffan
05-11-2010, 10:05 PM
uhhh... SAY WHAAAT??

Priest31kc
05-11-2010, 10:06 PM
uhhh... SAY WHAAAT??

Shocking.

L.A. Chieffan
05-11-2010, 10:08 PM
I like lebron but he aint nothing compared to kobe RIGHT NOW

DJ's left nut
05-11-2010, 10:13 PM
Charles Barkley -- "I played against Michael Jordan and you knew that at the end of every game, his gun would be empty. I didn't see that from Lebron James tonight..."

These series could not have emphasized what I was trying to say strongly enough. Kobe has been surgical; a complete assassin. Every single time Utah started to get some life, Kobe would snuff it out. Lebron, meanwhile, has had unquestionably the best non-Rondo game of the playoffs (showing just how skilled the guy is), but he's also been decidedly mediocre in the other games.

Now, I still expect the Cavs to win this series because LeBron is just that talented, but now he's going to 7 games then he's going to have to slug through Orlando. He just isn't treating this series like it's his. He's going out there and waiting the Celtics to give him a game instead of him taking it.

If anyone didn't understand what I was trying to say throughout this thread, these playoffs couldn't have done more to showcase it. Kobe has played with an edge to his game that we just don't see in Lebron's. Perhaps this is where he earns it. Maybe James gets the Cavs through this series and the momentum springboards them through Atlanta. Then he goes into the Finals feeling so good that he just murders everyone. At that point, you give him the crown.

But right now, he looks like he's always looked. He's a paper-tiger with a media just dying to make excuses for him. The more you watch him play, the more you realize it. Don't look at the stats that Mike Brown's middle-school offense inflates for him, but watch his games. The mental edge just isn't there yet.

It's not his teammates -- it's Lebron James.

chiefzilla1501
05-11-2010, 10:23 PM
Charles Barkley -- "I played against Michael Jordan and you knew that at the end of every game, his gun would be empty. I didn't see that from Lebron James tonight..."

These series could not have emphasized what I was trying to say strongly enough. Kobe has been surgical; a complete assassin. Every single time Utah started to get some life, Kobe would snuff it out. Lebron, meanwhile, has had unquestionably the best non-Rondo game of the playoffs (showing just how skilled the guy is), but he's also been decidedly mediocre in the other games.

Now, I still expect the Cavs to win this series because LeBron is just that talented, but now he's going to 7 games then he's going to have to slug through Orlando. He just isn't treating this series like it's his. He's going out there and waiting the Celtics to give him a game instead of him taking it.

If anyone didn't understand what I was trying to say throughout this thread, these playoffs couldn't have done more to showcase it. Kobe has played with an edge to his game that we just don't see in Lebron's. Perhaps this is where he earns it. Maybe James gets the Cavs through this series and the momentum springboards them through Atlanta. Then he goes into the Finals feeling so good that he just murders everyone. At that point, you give him the crown.

But right now, he looks like he's always looked. He's a paper-tiger with a media just dying to make excuses for him. The more you watch him play, the more you realize it. Don't look at the stats that Mike Brown's middle-school offense inflates for him, but watch his games. The mental edge just isn't there yet.

It's not his teammates -- it's Lebron James.

Before this game I disagreed.

Today was a different story. For a guy playing in the game of his life, why the fuck is he standing on the 3 point line instead of taking the ball up himself?

Now, I think part of that is on Mike Brown. But you'd like to see Lebron put just a little more effort off the ball. It was absolutely stunning to see that.

I really like Lebron. So I'm hoping, like Jordan, that a good coach will whip into shape in a game like this. But he's gotta take some accountability too. It's mind-boggling--he would NEVER do this kind of shit in the regular season. Suddenly, it's the playoffs, and he plays with the urgency of a preseason game.

Ecto-I
05-12-2010, 01:39 AM
I'm a big Laker fan, but this year Lebron was the league MVP. I don't think is Lebron is as good of a clutch player, nor do I think he has the drive that Kobe does, BUT his talent and athleticism are number 1 right now. I mean if we're talking RIGHT NOW, right now, then Kobe is obviously playing at a higher level. But, in terms of this season and probably next season, Lebron is statistically the better player.

Brock
05-12-2010, 09:13 AM
After seeing the game last night, this question seems pretty silly.

L.A. Chieffan
05-12-2010, 09:49 AM
I hope Lebron doesnt turn into the second coming of Karl Malone or something.

Buck
05-12-2010, 11:16 AM
Lol, I'm not surprised this was bumped this morning.

DJ's left nut
05-13-2010, 09:55 PM
Step on up, folks.

Every single thing I said in this thread was readily apparent in this series. The poor jump shooting. The poor interior game. The poor leadership and killer instinct.

All of it was right there for people to see. It was there before this series and this series simply punctuated it.

Who has the stones to come in here and admit they were flat-ass wrong?

Kobe Bryant is still the best player in the NBA.

DJ's left nut
05-14-2010, 09:05 AM
Wow. Nobody, huh?

Saul, Amnorix, SNR...any of the remaining 91?

Surely someone watched LeBron miss all those mid-range jumpers (because he doesn't have a jump shot), dribble the ball off his feet and flail about crazily in the post due to the absence of a post-up game.

Bueler, Bueler....

L.A. Chieffan
05-14-2010, 09:23 AM
Wow. Nobody, huh?

Saul, Amnorix, SNR...any of the remaining 91?

Surely someone watched LeBron miss all those mid-range jumpers (because he doesn't have a jump shot), dribble the ball off his feet and flail about crazily in the post due to the absence of a post-up game.

Bueler, Bueler....

its all mike browns fault.

LEAVE LEBRON ALONE!!!!1!!!!!!!!1!1

xztop12
05-14-2010, 12:34 PM
Lol basketball is funny.

Kobe is the best at drawing fouls and yelling "HEY!" everytime he goes to shoot to prompt the ref to take notice.

Lebron has the best on-the-ball defense in NBA history.

Kobe's passing this year has been really good, he has the best basketball IQ of any of the good athletes.

DJ's left nut
05-14-2010, 12:39 PM
Lol basketball is funny.

Kobe is the best at drawing fouls and yelling "HEY!" everytime he goes to shoot to prompt the ref to take notice.

Lebron has the best on-the-ball defense in NBA history.

Kobe's passing this year has been really good, he has the best basketball IQ of any of the good athletes.

LeBron is actually a pretty mediocre on-ball defender.

He's an excellent help defender, the best in the NBA and possibly the best I've ever seen.

But he's arguably not even the best on-ball defender on his own team (Varajao), wasn't the best on-ball defender in that series (Perkins is a very good man-defender, Garnett is excellent as well when healthy), and is probably only a fringe top 20 man defender in the NBA this season.

Saying he's the best of all time takes away any credibility you may have had.

xztop12
05-14-2010, 12:47 PM
LeBron is actually a pretty mediocre on-ball defender.

He's an excellent help defender, the best in the NBA and possibly the best I've ever seen.

But he's arguably not even the best on-ball defender on his own team (Varajao), wasn't the best on-ball defender in that series (Perkins is a very good man-defender, Garnett is excellent as well when healthy), and is probably only a fringe top 20 man defender in the NBA this season.

Saying he's the best of all time takes away any credibility you may have had.


i didnt say man defender... i said on the ball defender. He's too thick and used offensively to be good at running around screens. you're saying hes a good off the ball defender because of his blocks

unless there is a site that keeps track of how many points are scored against each defender then its purely speculation. And Tim Duncan is the best help defender, bro.

DJ's left nut
05-14-2010, 02:28 PM
Whether or not you like Bill Simmons, the man wrote a 700 pg book on basketball. He's an east-coast prick, but he knows B-ball.

Because the other part feels like we learned something substantial about LeBron James this spring. I always thought his ceiling looked like this: Jordan's DNA crossed with Magic's DNA crossed with Bo Jackson. Nope. Take the Jordan DNA out. Have to. Jordan was a ruthless mother******. Jordan was a killer. Jordan didn't care if his teammates despised him. Jordan never, ever, not in a million years, would have allowed his team to quit in the final two minutes of last night's game like LeBron did. His teammates feared him, loathed him, revered him and played accordingly. Bird had that same quality. In the second half of his career, so did Magic. Winning meant so much to those guys that their teammates almost didn't have a choice; they had to follow suit. Or else.

LeBron James is 25 years old. He's played seven seasons -- 548 regular-season games and 71 playoff games. There's a feeling that he can still get better, and with better teammates, maybe he could. But fundamentally, to paraphrase Bill Parcells, he is what he is at this point -- a gregarious, larger-than-life, supremely gifted basketball player who's better at making us say "WOW!" than anything else. If he owned that cutthroat Jordan chromosome, or Magic's leadership chromosome, it would have surfaced by now.


Sound familiar?

PS. Go to the article for a great comp that I'd never considered: Julius Ervin and LeBron.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba

Pretty interesting stuff.

DJ's left nut
05-14-2010, 02:32 PM
i didnt say man defender... i said on the ball defender. He's too thick and used offensively to be good at running around screens. you're saying hes a good off the ball defender because of his blocks

unless there is a site that keeps track of how many points are scored against each defender then its purely speculation. And Tim Duncan is the best help defender, bro.

How do you differentiate between 'man' defender and 'on-ball' defender?

It's a distinction without a difference. The 'on-ball' defender is essentially the guy that's squaring up the shooter. Now that the zone defenses are legal, 'man' defense has become little more than a hybrid matchup zone.

LeBron isn't elite on the ball because he's not quick enough to matchup around screens and he's too damn big to keep with the faster guards.

He is, however, an elite help defender because he has so much length that he can cover ground and harass guys as the 2nd guy in. Not just to block shots, but to alter them.

If you have a different definition of 'on the ball defender' I'm all ears, but by any conventional definition of that term I've ever heard/used, LeBron is simply a solid OTB defender, not an elite one and certainly not an historic one.

Simply Red
05-14-2010, 02:42 PM
Look who voted correctly, LMAO yeah, that's right, I DID!

BigMeatballDave
05-14-2010, 03:39 PM
I know one thing, Kobe couldn't win with the crap the Cavs have either.

Sweet Daddy Hate
05-14-2010, 03:44 PM
I fucking hate LA AND Kobe 'Motherfuckme' Bryant, but he's woken from his stupor and is now playing championship basketball.

And LeBron is...well...warming the fucking La-Z-Boy, boyee!

Sweet Daddy Hate
05-14-2010, 03:45 PM
Steve Nash

is better than both

stfd and stfu

LMAO

I'm temporarily adopting your sig.

DJ's left nut
05-17-2010, 09:48 PM
74% of Chiefsplanet are morons.

Un. Real.

-King-
05-17-2010, 09:50 PM
LMAO I was going to bump this thread too.

Von Dumbass
05-17-2010, 10:37 PM
74% of Chiefsplanet are morons.

Un. Real.

http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/1936_10_08_09_9_48_25.jpg

DJ's left nut
05-17-2010, 10:47 PM
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/1936_10_08_09_9_48_25.jpg

http://www.profilebrand.com/funny-pictures/category/demotivational/89_irony-kkk.gif

Consistent1
05-17-2010, 11:02 PM
I admit that I voted for LeBron and was wrong. Kobe is still a big-time player and continues to want to win badly.James is really going to have some things to prove now.
Posted via Mobile Device

Silock
05-17-2010, 11:15 PM
I know one thing, Kobe couldn't win with the crap the Cavs have either.

Uh, the Cavs are hardly "crap." LeBron had all the help he needed to win this year and couldn't do it.

Sweet Daddy Hate
05-20-2010, 03:10 PM
Wow. Nobody, huh?

Saul, Amnorix, SNR...any of the remaining 91?

Surely someone watched LeBron miss all those mid-range jumpers (because he doesn't have a jump shot), dribble the ball off his feet and flail about crazily in the post due to the absence of a post-up game.

Bueler, Bueler....

LMAO

Look who voted correctly, LMAO yeah, that's right, I DID!

Word. Even I knew that shit.

Mr. Arrowhead
05-20-2010, 03:46 PM
If Lebron had Kobe supporting cast, he would still be playing

DJ's left nut
05-20-2010, 03:49 PM
If Lebron had Kobe supporting cast, he would still be playing

If LeBron had Kobe's supporting cast, he still couldn't post anyone up or hit a mid-range jumpshot.

But whatever, it's all Anderson Varajao's fault.

Excuses, excuses. Kobe "couldn't make his teammates better" while LeBron "doesn't have any help"...

No sense in wasting my time with you folks. Keep on seeing what you want to see.

Miles
05-20-2010, 04:04 PM
I really have no axe to grind in this argument but I will say that Kobe is one of the least likable players in the game but his talent can't be denied. His ability to hit a mid range jumper under the best defense that can be played against anyone should not be discounted.

Detoxing
05-20-2010, 04:08 PM
If LeBron had Kobe's supporting cast, he still couldn't post anyone up or hit a mid-range jumpshot.

But whatever, it's all Anderson Varajao's fault.

Excuses, excuses. Kobe "couldn't make his teammates better" while LeBron "doesn't have any help"...

No sense in wasting my time with you folks. Keep on seeing what you want to see.

QFT

DJ's left nut
05-31-2010, 09:55 PM
What, no bump yesterday?

Slackers.