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The Mad Crapper
05-22-2010, 03:57 PM
The 2009 college graduates still without a job are in deep trouble as a wave of 2010 grads is on the way. Please consider College Grads Flood U.S. Labor Market With Diminished Prospects


Ten months after graduating from Ohio State University with a civil-engineering degree and three internships, Matt Grant finally has a job -- as a banquet waiter at a Clarion Inn near Akron, Ohio.

“It’s discouraging right now,” said the 24-year-old, who sent out more than 100 applications for engineering positions. “It’s getting closer to the Class of 2010, their graduation date. I’m starting to worry more.”

Schools from Grant’s alma mater to Harvard University will soon begin sending a wave of more than 1.6 million men and women with bachelor’s degrees into a labor market with a 9.9 percent jobless rate, according to the Education and Labor departments. While the economy is improving, unemployment is near a 26-year high, rising last month from 9.7 percent in January-March as more Americans entered the workforce.

The scramble for jobs may depress earnings of new and recent college graduates for years to come and handicap their future career opportunities, according to Lisa Kahn, an assistant professor of economics at Yale University’s School of Management in New Haven, Connecticut. It also might hurt Democrats in the November Congressional elections, as the young voters who helped propel the party to power in 2008 grow disenchanted with their economic prospects.

“More so in the last year to 18 months than at any time, we have seen applicants from prior graduating classes looking for the kind of entry-level jobs we’re recruiting for,” said Dan Black, director of campus recruiting for Ernst & Young LLP, a professional-services firm headquartered in New York. “There are a lot more cohorts competing with each other: ‘09 with ‘10, probably ‘10 with ‘11.”

Unemployment among people under 25 years old was 19.6 percent in April, the highest level since the Labor Department began tracking the data in 1948. Their economic travails may haunt Democrats in the November midterm elections. The youthful voters who helped propel the party to victory in the 2006 Congressional elections and gave the 2008 Obama campaign much of its vibrancy are showing signs of waning enthusiasm.

Democrats held a 62 percent to 30 percent advantage over Republicans in 2008 among “millennials,” born after 1980, according to the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in Washington D.C. Their 32-point margin shrank to 18 points this year, with 55 percent leaning Democratic and 37 percent Republican, based on polls taken from January through April.

Thirty-three percent of Harvard’s graduating seniors had accepted a job as of commencement last year, down from 51 percent the year before. The survey results for this year’s class haven’t been released.
Just as many of the long-term unemployed will never get another job in their field, instead relegated to taking jobs in the retail or restaurant industries, the same is likely to happen to the 2008-2010 graduates who do not find a job for a year, with wave after wave of new graduates on the way.

President Obama wants to fight this with more college grants as if sending more people to college is a cure for a glut of grads without job prospects.

Moreover, training plumbers to be java programmers (or vice versa) will do nothing but waste money while offering false hope and a burden of long-term student debt that cannot be paid back.

Mike "Mish" Shedlock
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Coin_ExactChange_160.gif

Hopey Change™

KC native
05-22-2010, 04:02 PM
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHWAAHHHHHHHHH

OLD PEOPLE WON'T RETIRE NOW YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TAKE JOBS AT LESS PAY AND I WILL STILL BE UNEMPLOYED.


ROFL

cdcox
05-22-2010, 04:08 PM
Heh, I graduated in 1983 with an engineering degree. Our class had extremely dim job prospects. Our commencement speaker prophesied that it would take five years for some engineers to find jobs. A real doom and gloomer like this article. I roomed with three other engineers. We completely wallpapered our bathroom wall with rejection letters. By graduation time only one of us had a job. Twenty-seven years later we are all doing fine. Three of us still have engineering jobs, the other retired from engineering, took a year off and did nothing, and now builds a few high-end houses every year.

Is this guy really advocating not getting an education? It is not for everyone, but if you want to be an engineer, the job prospects shouldn't steer you away from that career.

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2010, 04:12 PM
Heh, I graduated in 1983

1983: Ronald Reagan
2010: B.O.

Nuff said, Chip?

Saul Good
05-22-2010, 07:10 PM
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHWAAHHHHHHHHH

OLD PEOPLE WON'T RETIRE NOW YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TAKE JOBS AT LESS PAY AND I WILL STILL BE UNEMPLOYED.


ROFL

Meanwhile, you have a negative net worth yet fancy yourself a brilliant financial mind.

KC native
05-22-2010, 07:20 PM
Meanwhile, you have a negative net worth yet fancy yourself a brilliant financial mind.

Useless poster is still useless.

Saul Good
05-22-2010, 07:30 PM
Useless poster is still useless.

Your posts are so fresh. Somehow it just never gets stale when you post the same stupid retort over and over.

1. Stupid guy is stupid
2. Sunshine my dick
3. Racist
4. Your misguided opinion on economic issues

KC native
05-22-2010, 07:46 PM
Your posts are so fresh. Somehow it just never gets stale when you post the same stupid retort over and over.

1. Stupid guy is stupid
2. Sunshine my dick
3. Racist
4. Your misguided opinion on economic issues

useless poster is useless.

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2010, 07:51 PM
Your posts are so fresh. Somehow it just never gets stale when you post the same stupid retort over and over.

1. Stupid guy is stupid
2. Sunshine my dick
3. Racist
4. Your misguided opinion on economic issues

The guy has no redeeming qualities. He was shit out his mothers ass in a Tijauna brothel.

Saul Good
05-22-2010, 10:51 PM
useless poster is useless.

net-worthless poster is net-worthless

Rain Man
05-22-2010, 11:14 PM
Heh, I graduated in 1983 with an engineering degree. Our class had extremely dim job prospects. Our commencement speaker prophesied that it would take five years for some engineers to find jobs. A real doom and gloomer like this article. I roomed with three other engineers. We completely wallpapered our bathroom wall with rejection letters. By graduation time only one of us had a job. Twenty-seven years later we are all doing fine. Three of us still have engineering jobs, the other retired from engineering, took a year off and did nothing, and now builds a few high-end houses every year.

Is this guy really advocating not getting an education? It is not for everyone, but if you want to be an engineer, the job prospects shouldn't steer you away from that career.


That was the same year my wife graduated with an engineering degree, and she couldn't find a job either. I graduated in 1986 and had no trouble at all, so three years must've made a difference.

I do feel sorry for the newly graduating kids now. It's got to be hard to go through school and then not have an immediate reward on the other end.

cdcox
05-22-2010, 11:21 PM
That was the same year my wife graduated with an engineering degree, and she couldn't find a job either. I graduated in 1986 and had no trouble at all, so three years must've made a difference.

I do feel sorry for the newly graduating kids now. It's got to be hard to go through school and then not have an immediate reward on the other end.

A lot of the kids are going to graduate school (that's what I did). It is not such a bad thing because you get a leg up and also kill time until the economy gets better. I got out with my Masters at the end of 1984 and was able to find a job without too much sweat.

Others are looking for jobs and have a pretty good attitude about it. I think just the relief of finishing the degree has a lot of them breathing a sigh of relief.

patteeu
05-23-2010, 10:19 AM
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHWAAHHHHHHHHH

OLD PEOPLE WON'T RETIRE NOW YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TAKE JOBS AT LESS PAY AND I WILL STILL BE UNEMPLOYED.


ROFL

I didn't read the article but that's not going to stop me from commenting! [/KC native]

ROFL

patteeu
05-23-2010, 10:27 AM
Heh, I graduated in 1983 with an engineering degree. Our class had extremely dim job prospects. Our commencement speaker prophesied that it would take five years for some engineers to find jobs. A real doom and gloomer like this article. I roomed with three other engineers. We completely wallpapered our bathroom wall with rejection letters. By graduation time only one of us had a job. Twenty-seven years later we are all doing fine. Three of us still have engineering jobs, the other retired from engineering, took a year off and did nothing, and now builds a few high-end houses every year.

Is this guy really advocating not getting an education? It is not for everyone, but if you want to be an engineer, the job prospects shouldn't steer you away from that career.

Yeah, I wouldn't be too worried if my degree was in something like engineering or nursing or if it came from a prestigious university. But if I had a degree in art history or english from directional state, I'd be pretty concerned about how I was going to repay my loans at this point.

banyon
05-23-2010, 10:30 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't be too worried if my degree was in something like engineering or nursing or if it came from a prestigious university. But if I had a degree in art history or english from directional state, I'd be pretty concerned about how I was going to repay my loans at this point.

I actually talked to a kid who was attending Fort Hays State and asked him what he was studying. He said "general studies", at which point we had a discussion about the current job market and the possibility that direction might be a good idea.

patteeu
05-23-2010, 11:08 AM
I actually talked to a kid who was attending Fort Hays State and asked him what he was studying. He said "general studies", at which point we had a discussion about the current job market and the possibility that direction might be a good idea.

:thumb: My oldest daughter is just finishing her sophomore year in high school so she still has time to decide what she wants to do, but right now she doesn't seem to have any idea and it makes me a little nervous.

My wife and I have two different ideas about how to counsel her too. My wife thinks we should be encouraging her to follow her dreams (whatever they are) and find something she loves even if the income prospects are weak. I think she needs to have an idea about what kind of income she's going to need in order to afford the lifestyle she wants and then try to choose the most attractive education/career path within that constraint. I'm sure it will work out in the end though (as long as she doesn't do something crazy like get married right out of high school, lol).

banyon
05-23-2010, 11:16 AM
:thumb: My oldest daughter is just finishing her sophomore year in high school so she still has time to decide what she wants to do, but right now she doesn't seem to have any idea and it makes me a little nervous.

My wife and I have two different ideas about how to counsel her too. My wife thinks we should be encouraging her to follow her dreams (whatever they are) and find something she loves even if the income prospects are weak. I think she needs to have an idea about what kind of income she's going to need in order to afford the lifestyle she wants and then try to choose the most attractive education/career path within that constraint. I'm sure it will work out in the end though (as long as she doesn't do something crazy like get married right out of high school, lol).

I think students these days have to make a real decision about how much debt they are going to take on and what their prospects are for paying it off. I even read a paper recently from Vanderbilt that argued for many people, law school will simply be taking on too much debt. If you have scholarships, then your choices are still pretty easy, but we need a movement to emphasize trade schools in this country. so we don't have the plethora of people out their with degrees they don't use, basically just a status symbol, and all they have to show for it is a student loan payment they can't make.

chiefforlife
05-23-2010, 11:21 AM
I think to many people look down on trade schools. A person with a trade can make a very good living. Would either of you be upset if your child went into construction, plumbing, auto repair?

chiefforlife
05-23-2010, 11:24 AM
I think students these days have to make a real decision about how much debt they are going to take on and what their prospects are for paying it off. I even read a paper recently from Vanderbilt that argued for many people, law school will simply be taking on too much debt. If you have scholarships, then your choices are still pretty easy, but we need a movement to emphasize trade schools in this country. so we don't have the plethora of people out their with degrees they don't use, basically just a status symbol, and all they have to show for it is a student loan payment they can't make.

I must have been posting while you posted this, I think you have a great point about trade schools. I wonder why there isnt a bigger movement towards them.

Brock
05-23-2010, 11:28 AM
I think to many people look down on trade schools. A person with a trade can make a very good living. Would either of you be upset if your child went into construction, plumbing, auto repair?

The construction industry is dead as far as a career path. Better learn to speak Spanish and work for tortillas.

cdcox
05-23-2010, 11:29 AM
I do all of the non-standard advising in my department. I see lots of kids that aren't cut out for engineering, students that aren't mature enough to make the best use of their college years, students that are transferring into engineering, second degree students who earned one degree and are now seeking an engineering degree, etc.

One consistent pattern is that older students tend to know what they want and are more focused than younger ones.

I think it is kind of ridiculous to expect an 18 yo to know exactly what they want to do and how they want to balance their profession vs lifestyle at that age. Some have a pretty good idea (I did) but to expect that as the norm is pretty unrealistic, IMO.

If an student is unsure of what they want to do or is a little immature, I'd recommend some kind of mixture of job and community college for a few years. Maybe an oversees trip (backpack variety with friends). If by age 22 they have their gen eds out of the way (with a decent GPA to keep their options open), know what really interests them, have a realistic expectation about what the work force is like and how far money goes, and are ready to undertake serious study in their chosen profession, they are in great shape.

chiefforlife
05-23-2010, 11:30 AM
The construction industry is dead as far as a career path. Better learn to speak Spanish and work for tortillas.

Maybe not a good example but I can tell you, the auto repair industry is thriving.

Brock
05-23-2010, 11:32 AM
Maybe not a good example but I can tell you, the auto repair industry is thriving.

That is true. Mechanics make pretty good money.

cdcox
05-23-2010, 11:34 AM
The construction industry is dead as far as a career path. Better learn to speak Spanish and work for tortillas.

You can make a decent living in electrical, HVAC and plumbing even as a an apprentice. If I were young and didn't want to go to college, I'd work 10 years for someone else and then open up my own business.

Brock
05-23-2010, 11:39 AM
You can make a decent living in electrical, HVAC and plumbing even as a an apprentice. If I were young and didn't want to go to college, I'd work 10 years for someone else and then open up my own business.

Probably. It's tough out there right now. Very tough.

banyon
05-23-2010, 11:41 AM
If anyone wants to watch something really disturbing about the commoditization of unnecessary post-secondary education:

College,Inc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

banyon
05-23-2010, 11:43 AM
You can make a decent living in electrical, HVAC and plumbing even as a an apprentice. If I were young and didn't want to go to college, I'd work 10 years for someone else and then open up my own business.

I think that would be a very wise and prescient decision for someone to make. unfortunately, you and I have the benefit of some career hindsight.

I think if you are 18, there's a real stigma that if you don't go to college, basically you must be stupid or poor. This stigma, for the people who would be good trade school candidates is what we have to overcome.

cdcox
05-23-2010, 11:47 AM
Probably. It's tough out there right now. Very tough.

An owner of an HVAC company was out at the house a couple of years ago giving me an estimate. We got to talking and he said that he would train people to do the work, but he was having trouble finding people that had a drivers licence and that could pass a drug test. The people he did have were constantly bugging him from the field about little details that they should have been able to figure out on their own. It was pretty clear that someone with a little ambition could easily become this guy's number 2 or 3 guy in a couple of years. It just got me to thinking that you could still earn a decent living in this country, even without a college education.

Sure the economy changes things, but if someone's HVAC system is out they are still going to get it fixed.

Rain Man
05-23-2010, 11:49 AM
I've had the same thought about college versus trade school. For the past 50 years society has been preaching 'get a degree, get a degree', and I think there are several problems with that.

First, not everyone is suited for college, and I think the rise in college attendance over the last fifty years has swept up a lot of those people. They then end up with a degree that may not reflect how they want to spend their life, and they had to pay for it. I recognize that undergrad degrees now are the social equivalent of high school diplomas 50 years ago, but they're much more expensive.

Second, as mentioned, a lot of trade work can earn a person decent money, more so than some more gen-ed degrees, I bet. And society needs people in those jobs, and really shouldn't look down on people who go into old-economy fields that don't require a college degree. People should be encouraged to go into those fields if they match their skills and interests. (Of course, with all the technology now, even the old-economy fields likely need some specialized education any more.)

Third, universities have preached the wrong message, and it's coming back to bite them now. The message shouldn't have been 'get a degree, get a degree', it should have been 'get an education, get an education'. Now all these low-end private-sector colleges exist where you can get 'a degree' for much less money than a traditional college, but I wonder about the extent to which you get 'an education'. The 'Get a degree' theme is naturally going to lead to the lowest-price option in the marketplace if that's the real goal. And it's also diminishing the real value of a college degree, which is proof that the person is a person of learning.

chiefforlife
05-23-2010, 12:03 PM
I like where this thread is going. Thanks to those who obviously hold a degree for not looking down on those of us who dont.
I didnt care much for school when I was young and really wanted to get into the work force. I was poor but not stupid. I excelled at every job I had whether I liked it or not, soon I was the boss by default really.
I now own my own business and it is doing very well. A few of my top guys are making more money than a lot of people I know that went to college and received their degrees.
Now I thirst for knowledge which is why I come here, I respect a lot of the posters here even if I dont agree with everything. I learn and I like it.

Rain Man
05-23-2010, 12:04 PM
:thumb: My oldest daughter is just finishing her sophomore year in high school so she still has time to decide what she wants to do, but right now she doesn't seem to have any idea and it makes me a little nervous.

My wife and I have two different ideas about how to counsel her too. My wife thinks we should be encouraging her to follow her dreams (whatever they are) and find something she loves even if the income prospects are weak. I think she needs to have an idea about what kind of income she's going to need in order to afford the lifestyle she wants and then try to choose the most attractive education/career path within that constraint. I'm sure it will work out in the end though (as long as she doesn't do something crazy like get married right out of high school, lol).


It would seem like if you don't know what to do, then you don't have that single-minded dream that will power you through the competition for a more esoteric field, so you should pursue something practical. Pursue a dream if you have one, or otherwise pursue a lifestyle.

I liked your term "directional state" in an earlier post, too. I'd never heard that before.

cdcox
05-23-2010, 12:05 PM
If anyone wants to watch something really disturbing about the commoditization of unnecessary post-secondary education:

College,Inc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

I saw that, it was excellent. However, I would change "commoditization" to "commercialization". The focus was on the on-line and for-profit schools that basically charged more than a typical state university (which would typically provide a much better education) and financed it almost exclusively using federal student loans. In my opinion, the goal of these for-profit schools is to siphon off federal money and only view their students as a pipeline to get at the money.

On the other hand, there is a real need for non-traditional delivery modes of higher education. I wonder if there is an untapped business model where the focus is on providing a rigorous, quality education (similar to a major state university) in a distance education mode. It seems that you could keep the costs low since you really tap into economies of scale with instructors and the technology would likely be cheaper than the traditional infrastructure for a state university. We offer MS degrees in distance education mode but nothing at the undergraduate level. You have to think that the market for UG education would be 50x what the grad level would be. In the technical fields, laboratories would be a challenge.

Reaper16
05-23-2010, 12:08 PM
I think to many people look down on trade schools. A person with a trade can make a very good living. Would either of you be upset if your child went into construction, plumbing, auto repair?
Yes. Absolutely. There are a lot of kids in college that shouldn't be there, don't want to be there and don't need to be there. They're only there because of the bill of goods sold to them that they need a college degree to get a job.

banyon
05-23-2010, 12:30 PM
I saw that, it was excellent. However, I would change "commoditization" to "commercialization". The focus was on the on-line and for-profit schools that basically charged more than a typical state university (which would typically provide a much better education) and financed it almost exclusively using federal student loans. In my opinion, the goal of these for-profit schools is to siphon off federal money and only view their students as a pipeline to get at the money.

On the other hand, there is a real need for non-traditional delivery modes of higher education. I wonder if there is an untapped business model where the focus is on providing a rigorous, quality education (similar to a major state university) in a distance education mode. It seems that you could keep the costs low since you really tap into economies of scale with instructors and the technology would likely be cheaper than the traditional infrastructure for a state university. We offer MS degrees in distance education mode but nothing at the undergraduate level. You have to think that the market for UG education would be 50x what the grad level would be. In the technical fields, laboratories would be a challenge.

When I used the "commoditization" language, I had in mind the part of the documentary detailing how these investors basically purchased accreditation and then converted it into a means to access loan tax dollars and then moved on to make the next trade, leaving a wave of defaults that we (and not they) were on the hook for.

But there was certainly a commercialization focus as well. Our view of the Grand Canyon U's of the world's corporate mission is the same.

banyon
05-23-2010, 12:40 PM
I like where this thread is going. Thanks to those who obviously hold a degree for not looking down on those of us who dont.
I didnt care much for school when I was young and really wanted to get into the work force. I was poor but not stupid. I excelled at every job I had whether I liked it or not, soon I was the boss by default really.
I now own my own business and it is doing very well. A few of my top guys are making more money than a lot of people I know that went to college and received their degrees.
Now I thirst for knowledge which is why I come here, I respect a lot of the posters here even if I dont agree with everything. I learn and I like it.

I think moving away from Lawrence, KS, where people without degrees are regarded as cro-magnons or something and out here to rural America, has helped me to see that the stigma is definitely unmerited.

I have long been fascinated with the old British "Tripartite" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_System) model of education in which kids are "tracked" beginning around age 14 to either enter Grammar, Technical, or Modern schools, depending on their outlook on their future career. I think that system was too rigid and ultimately, the British were right to reject it, as it exacerbated class tensions and made upward mobility more difficult. But if people are adults and can make up their own minds at 18, then I think such a structure makes more sense.

Jenson71
05-23-2010, 12:55 PM
This thread has been very interesting to read so far. Thank you for all your contributions.

Jenson71
05-23-2010, 12:56 PM
My wife and I have two different ideas about how to counsel her too. My wife thinks we should be encouraging her to follow her dreams (whatever they are) and find something she loves even if the income prospects are weak. I think she needs to have an idea about what kind of income she's going to need in order to afford the lifestyle she wants and then try to choose the most attractive education/career path within that constraint. I'm sure it will work out in the end though (as long as she doesn't do something crazy like get married right out of high school, lol).

Probably, patteeu. Was it not Aristotle who saw that a steady income was imperative to the leisurely life (in which one can truly follow their dreams)?

WilliamTheIrish
05-23-2010, 03:32 PM
If anyone wants to watch something really disturbing about the commoditization of unnecessary post-secondary education:

College,Inc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

That was (another) great piece by Frontline. The old "You gotta get a degree" to reach your dreams is such a hoax. having a degree is wonderful. It's a testament to hard work and dedication. But if it doesn't put bread on the table, it's useless.

*I see now that Rain Man posted almost exactly what my next two paragraphs were going to be.

mlyonsd
05-23-2010, 03:51 PM
Some of the most well rounded, intelligent, great people to be around I know turn wrenches for a living.

I don't think a degree does much for you if you're not happy in your career decision.

dirk digler
05-23-2010, 05:22 PM
:thumb: My oldest daughter is just finishing her sophomore year in high school so she still has time to decide what she wants to do, but right now she doesn't seem to have any idea and it makes me a little nervous.

My wife and I have two different ideas about how to counsel her too. My wife thinks we should be encouraging her to follow her dreams (whatever they are) and find something she loves even if the income prospects are weak. I think she needs to have an idea about what kind of income she's going to need in order to afford the lifestyle she wants and then try to choose the most attractive education/career path within that constraint. I'm sure it will work out in the end though (as long as she doesn't do something crazy like get married right out of high school, lol).

I am so fucked. My daughter has finally settled in on what she wants to do and she wants to be a fucking journalist. When she was in middle school she wanted to be a veterinarian which I really encouraged.

Anyway my fiancee is graduating in June with a Finance Major and she hasn't had any luck finding anything. Luckily she has a job, totally unrelated to her field, so we can hold out until the market improves.

KC native
05-23-2010, 05:35 PM
I am so fucked. My daughter has finally settled in on what she wants to do and she wants to be a fucking journalist. When she was in middle school she wanted to be a veterinarian which I really encouraged.

Anyway my fiancee is graduating in June with a Finance Major and she hasn't had any luck finding anything. Luckily she has a job, totally unrelated to her field, so we can hold out until the market improves.

Yea, finance is fucked right now and a lot of companies are abusing the temp agency model for filling positions. Good luck to your fiancee.

HonestChieffan
05-23-2010, 05:41 PM
How refreshing. This thread demonstrates a great grasp of the real world situation in the trades and the value, or lack thereof in a degree. Not saying college isn't a great thing but talk to some electricians who own their business and you get an earful on the lack of young people who want to work, who can get a CDL, or can pass a pee test.

Having recruited at over 8 different Universities I was always blow away by new grads looking for a job who could not verbalize what they wanted to do, what skills they had that would add value to the job they were interviewing for, had no clue what the company did, it was just posted so they signed up...etc...etc.

dirk digler
05-23-2010, 05:58 PM
Yea, finance is fucked right now and a lot of companies are abusing the temp agency model for filling positions. Good luck to your fiancee.

Yep I think alot of positions are fucked right now but we will be ok.

Rain Man
05-23-2010, 06:02 PM
I wonder if there'll be a reverse movement at some point. The parents of people my age tended to push their kids toward services jobs because they were deemed an easier and better living than the manufacturing and construction and other physical work that our parents did. Now our generation and our kids' generation are living their entire working lives in those service jobs, and realizing that they're not exactly a cake walk, so maybe the next generation will "go back to the land" more. Dunno, probably not, but it's a fun theory to think about.

Rain Man
05-23-2010, 06:08 PM
And meanwhile, my 19 year-old niece is strongly considering dropping out of college after one year, not because of grades or interest, but because she can't afford it. The financial aid system apparently limits what she can borrow, and the loan payments aren't deferred, and even with a good scholarship she may not be able to make up the difference between tuition and what she can borrow.

Hearing that was a real shocker to me. In my day, I think pretty much anybody could go to a state school on grants and/or loans if they were willing to take on the debt. If kids literally can't even borrow the money to go to college, that doesn't seem right. Maybe that's the solution to the 'get a degree' problem, but it's a pretty coarsely targeted solution if it just gets the poor kids.

I'll note that the financial aid stuff is hearsay, so I can't confirm it. It's possible that she doesn't know the right angles to pursue. I just hate to see her drop out for that reason.

banyon
05-23-2010, 06:11 PM
And meanwhile, my 19 year-old niece is strongly considering dropping out of college after one year, not because of grades or interest, but because she can't afford it. The financial aid system apparently limits what she can borrow, and the loan payments aren't deferred, and even with a good scholarship she may not be able to make up the difference between tuition and what she can borrow.

This is really odd. I don't think any of the federal loan programs lack in-school deferments (as long as you are attending at least 1/2 time). I think (but do not know) that most of the private school loan counterparts also have such deferments.

Rain Man
05-23-2010, 06:18 PM
This is really odd. I don't think any of the federal loan programs lack in-school deferments (as long as you are attending at least 1/2 time). I think (but do not know) that most of the private school loan counterparts also have such deferments.

It seems odd to me, too. I'll confess that I don't trust my sister (the girl's mother) to get that stuff right, but she swears that the only student loans they can get require immediate startup of payments. They're not particularly affluent or anything, kind of barely middle class, so it can't be an income thing.

dirk digler
05-23-2010, 06:22 PM
I think students these days have to make a real decision about how much debt they are going to take on and what their prospects are for paying it off. I even read a paper recently from Vanderbilt that argued for many people, law school will simply be taking on too much debt. If you have scholarships, then your choices are still pretty easy, but we need a movement to emphasize trade schools in this country. so we don't have the plethora of people out their with degrees they don't use, basically just a status symbol, and all they have to show for it is a student loan payment they can't make.

What we should do is require a 4-year service in the military and then they can decide what they want to do after that.

WilliamTheIrish
05-23-2010, 06:23 PM
If that story is correct and truthful, you can commend your niece for not being foolish. My daughter went through two athletic schollies, racked up 80 hours of credit and never finished her major.

Now she's got 20K of debt and after bouncing around the service industry joined the Army.

NewChief
05-23-2010, 08:27 PM
I wonder if there'll be a reverse movement at some point. The parents of people my age tended to push their kids toward services jobs because they were deemed an easier and better living than the manufacturing and construction and other physical work that our parents did. Now our generation and our kids' generation are living their entire working lives in those service jobs, and realizing that they're not exactly a cake walk, so maybe the next generation will "go back to the land" more. Dunno, probably not, but it's a fun theory to think about.

I think this is happening already to some extent. Lots of people are starting to find the corporate and office grind isn't really that cushy... and in fact it can be soul-numbing, meaningless bullshit... whereas manual labor, while physically demanding, offers some real intrinsic rewards.

NewChief
05-23-2010, 08:30 PM
For those with children (or hell for anyone), I highly recommend reading both of Daniel Pink's books: A Whole New Mind and Drive for an interesting perspective on the future of work and how to equip your kid (or business) for that future.

cdcox
05-23-2010, 08:39 PM
And meanwhile, my 19 year-old niece is strongly considering dropping out of college after one year, not because of grades or interest, but because she can't afford it. The financial aid system apparently limits what she can borrow, and the loan payments aren't deferred, and even with a good scholarship she may not be able to make up the difference between tuition and what she can borrow.

Hearing that was a real shocker to me. In my day, I think pretty much anybody could go to a state school on grants and/or loans if they were willing to take on the debt. If kids literally can't even borrow the money to go to college, that doesn't seem right. Maybe that's the solution to the 'get a degree' problem, but it's a pretty coarsely targeted solution if it just gets the poor kids.

I'll note that the financial aid stuff is hearsay, so I can't confirm it. It's possible that she doesn't know the right angles to pursue. I just hate to see her drop out for that reason.

At my school, 99% of the in-state students that are admitted qualify for a state lottery scholarship that pays full tuition. Many students will lose their scholarship because they don't keep their grades up, but many students will have this scholarship all 4 years. Even if you have to pay, in-state tuition is only about $7K per year, so it's not a huge millstone to the beginning of your post-college life.

For kids that have their act together and know what they want to do, it is still possible to get a very affordable, high-quality education. It's not for everybody, but for those that are qualified and want it, it can still be very affordable.

BucEyedPea
05-23-2010, 08:58 PM
I think this is happening already to some extent. Lots of people are starting to find the corporate and office grind isn't really that cushy... and in fact it can be soul-numbing, meaningless bullshit... whereas manual labor, while physically demanding, offers some real intrinsic rewards.

I just completed a volunteer project tutoring under NCLB for a private tutoring firm. I was in there last week and there was this guy who's practically a millionaire, if not one, who owns a trucking business who can't read. He came in asking to learn how to read because his secretary was leaving and she did everything for him. Now he has to do it. I was floored but he was successful. Some very successful people have not gone to college.

Chiefshrink
05-23-2010, 09:01 PM
I do all of the non-standard advising in my department. I see lots of kids that aren't cut out for engineering, students that aren't mature enough to make the best use of their college years, students that are transferring into engineering, second degree students who earned one degree and are now seeking an engineering degree, etc.

One consistent pattern is that older students tend to know what they want and are more focused than younger ones.

I think it is kind of ridiculous to expect an 18 yo to know exactly what they want to do and how they want to balance their profession vs lifestyle at that age. Some have a pretty good idea (I did) but to expect that as the norm is pretty unrealistic, IMO.

If an student is unsure of what they want to do or is a little immature, I'd recommend some kind of mixture of job and community college for a few years. Maybe an oversees trip (backpack variety with friends). If by age 22 they have their gen eds out of the way (with a decent GPA to keep their options open), know what really interests them, have a realistic expectation about what the work force is like and how far money goes, and are ready to undertake serious study in their chosen profession, they are in great shape.

Good advice, but that is if you can pry them off their I-phones,blackberries,playstations,X-boxes etc.....long enough to get a taste of the "real world" and how most are simply unprepared, due to the entitlement mentality enabled by mommy and daddy and NOW OBAMA!!:cuss:

BucEyedPea
05-23-2010, 09:10 PM
The kids who don't know are the hardest to work with, imo.

My kid didn't know what she wanted and every few months it changed: pilot, illustrator, author, Marine ( after she read Band of Brothers) , physicist which went the longest with author reappearing from time to time. Then last Spring it was architect. Finally, I just sat down and asked her what kind of things she loves to create. I emphasized "love" repeatedly. Because I feel if one finds their passion they'll succeed at it. So out came the game design with her telling me she loved to write stories and create characters and draw them. She liked the war (ugh!) science fiction, fantasy genre's the most. So it seems her science interest, visual art and writing all come together with this. She hasn't changed it since last summer either. ( A good sign.) It's a growing industry too. Good money in it but I imagine it's competitive too.

I do know that during the Depression small ticket items like movies (entertainment) and clothes did better than other industries. So I hope it still has opportunity. But there's time. Plus she can switch over to writing scripts from the writing for mass entertainment too should she want to do that. She's looking at Full Sail in Orlando.

BucEyedPea
05-23-2010, 09:13 PM
playstations,X-boxes etc.....

My kid going to corrupt other kids with those things.
One reason I think she witheld her love of video games was because her school discouraged them and advised us as parent to limit them. So I think she was afraid to say what she loved. Heh! Now she'll ruin other kids.

Chiefshrink
05-23-2010, 11:38 PM
My kid going to corrupt other kids with those things.
One reason I think she witheld her love of video games was because her school discouraged them and advised us as parent to limit them. So I think she was afraid to say what she loved. Heh! Now she'll ruin other kids.

You are definitely right about the "passion part" very few people find it or fear to pursue it. My guess you are unlike the majority of parents who are not that involved in their kids lives letting the TV give the values and letting the games babysit them.

What I read is that you continue to not only support but pursue your child and helped her not only find her "bent" that God gave her but actually embrace and take on her gift. Good job!!!:thumb:

BucEyedPea
05-24-2010, 04:03 AM
What I read is that you continue to not only support but pursue your child and helped her not only find her "bent" that God gave her but actually embrace and take on her gift. Good job!!!:thumb:
Thank you. My parents did if for me. So that's where I get it I guess.

BucEyedPea
05-24-2010, 04:14 AM
What we should do is require a 4-year service in the military and then they can decide what they want to do after that.

Gawd, that's just aweful. The govt requiring this? Oppressively authoritarian dirk. Whatever happened to people in this country believing in freedom?

dirk digler
05-24-2010, 07:25 AM
Gawd, that's just aweful. The govt requiring this? Oppressively authoritarian dirk. Whatever happened to people in this country believing in freedom?

Isreal does it and works out fine. I would even throw in you can join the Peace Corp or AmeriCorp or whatever other Corps are out there. Also I would even give them the option to join the Border Patrol and have them guard the Mexican border.

After their 4 years of service they can do whatever they want but if they do go to college the government pays for it. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Otter
05-24-2010, 08:09 AM
The kids who don't know are the hardest to work with, imo.

My kid didn't know what she wanted and every few months it changed: pilot, illustrator, author, Marine ( after she read Band of Brothers) , physicist which went the longest with author reappearing from time to time. Then last Spring it was architect. Finally, I just sat down and asked her what kind of things she loves to create. I emphasized "love" repeatedly. Because I feel if one finds their passion they'll succeed at it. So out came the game design with her telling me she loved to write stories and create characters and draw them. She liked the war (ugh!) science fiction, fantasy genre's the most. So it seems her science interest, visual art and writing all come together with this. She hasn't changed it since last summer either. ( A good sign.) It's a growing industry too. Good money in it but I imagine it's competitive too.

I do know that during the Depression small ticket items like movies (entertainment) and clothes did better than other industries. So I hope it still has opportunity. But there's time. Plus she can switch over to writing scripts from the writing for mass entertainment too should she want to do that. She's looking at Full Sail in Orlando.

Tell her to spend her summers as a tester as early as possible until she graduates. It doesn't pay well but the work experience is priceless.

Chiefshrink
05-24-2010, 09:40 AM
Thank you. My parents did if for me. So that's where I get it I guess.

And this is what Marx said is essential in taking down the free world in order to create useful idiots is not only eliminating the concept of God but tear down the family.

Keep up the great work and I know you will always keep fighting the good righteous fight against tyranny.:thumb:

The Mad Crapper
05-24-2010, 09:41 AM
And this is what Marx said is essential in taking down the free world in order to create useful idiots is not only eliminating the concept of God but tear down the family.

Don't worry, the Moonbats will just import Muslims--- they breed like rabbits.

Orange told me so.

Rain Man
05-24-2010, 09:49 AM
At my school, 99% of the in-state students that are admitted qualify for a state lottery scholarship that pays full tuition. Many students will lose their scholarship because they don't keep their grades up, but many students will have this scholarship all 4 years. Even if you have to pay, in-state tuition is only about $7K per year, so it's not a huge millstone to the beginning of your post-college life.

For kids that have their act together and know what they want to do, it is still possible to get a very affordable, high-quality education. It's not for everybody, but for those that are qualified and want it, it can still be very affordable.


Wow, that sounds like a great program. I wonder if Missouri doesn't have something like that. When I went to college 25 years ago I went on a similar program, but it only went to 1 percent of students, not 99 percent. (Had to finish in top 1% of your class.) One of my employees was about 20 years behind me and he got the same scholarship, so I'm guessing that's still the only similar option in Missouri.

If any of you Missourians knows anything different, I'd love to hear it.

Jenson71
05-24-2010, 09:54 AM
And this is what Marx said is essential in taking down the free world in order to create useful idiots is not only eliminating the concept of God but tear down the family.

Having read some Marx, I don't think that's a valid criticism at all. In fact, he seems very genuinely concerned with family.

And just look at his biography. He was married for almost 40 years to the same woman and had seven children with her. Though he may have had an illegitimate child with the maid, that's not much to say for wanting to tear down the family.

blaise
05-24-2010, 10:02 AM
What we should do is require a 4-year service in the military and then they can decide what they want to do after that.

Most American teenagers are too fat and out of shape to navigate an obstacle course at Chuck E Cheese, much less one at a military boot camp.

The Mad Crapper
05-24-2010, 10:21 AM
Most American teenagers are too fat and out of shape to navigate an obstacle course at Chuck E Cheese, much less one at a military boot camp.

ROFL

dirk digler
05-24-2010, 10:28 AM
Most American teenagers are too fat and out of shape to navigate an obstacle course at Chuck E Cheese, much less one at a military boot camp.

LMAO True but think of all the money we could potentially save in health care costs by getting them in shape.

Amnorix
05-24-2010, 10:37 AM
IMPORTANT NEWS -- MANY COLLEGE STUDENTS (estimates vary but it's believed to be approximately 25% of all college students in the entire country!!!) GRADUATE IN MAY/JUNE!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!1!!!


{this important newsflash was brought to you by our sponsor, shithead}

The Mad Crapper
05-24-2010, 10:40 AM
IMPORTANT NEWS -- MANY COLLEGE STUDENTS (estimates vary but it's believed to be approximately 25% of all college students in the entire country!!!) GRADUATE IN MAY/JUNE!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!1!!!


{this important newsflash was brought to you by our sponsor, shithead}

With the exception of you and KC Naive, everybody else who posted in this thread kept it civil and actually discussed the topic, not me.

That's some good company you are keeping, Amno.

The Mad Crapper
05-24-2010, 10:41 AM
And although I can't read what they said, I know that Dirk Off and Jenson Brown posted in this thread--- I have no doubt they also threw darts in my back instead of actually discuss the topic.

patteeu
05-24-2010, 10:54 AM
And although I can't read what they said, I know that Dirk Off and Jenson Brown posted in this thread--- I have no doubt they also threw darts in my back instead of actually discuss the topic.

Nope. Neither of them were critical of you. Both made relevant comments about the topic. Maybe the three of you are ready to :grouphug: and move on to a more amicable phase of your relationship. :shrug:

The Mad Crapper
05-24-2010, 10:59 AM
Nope. Neither of them were critical of you. Both made relevant comments about the topic. Maybe the three of you are ready to :grouphug: and move on to a more amicable phase of your relationship. :shrug:

I guess.

Saul Good
05-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Having read some Marx, I don't think that's a valid criticism at all. In fact, he seems very genuinely concerned with family. And just look at his biography. He was married for almost 40 years to the same woman and had seven children with her. Though he may have had an illegitimate child with the maid, that's not much to say for wanting to tear down the family.Right. And congressional democrats must have been against Obamacare because they wanted to exempt themselves from it. You don't suppose that what's good for the goose (proletariat) might not be good for the gander (elites) do you?

BucEyedPea
05-24-2010, 11:39 AM
25% more people on the market is nothing to snuff at!
More are in college than ever before.

BucEyedPea
05-24-2010, 11:42 AM
Isreal does it and works out fine.
What works is a matter of opinion here.

Let's look at Israel:
Israel is a rigidly socialist country.
It's much smaller.
Is a country that's under siege, surrounded by enemies and has been at permanent war since her formation.

I wouldn't compare us to them. It's anti-liberty, very expensive to support by the private sector, authoritaran and therefore unsuitable in what is deemed the freest country in the world. Therefore it's anti-American.

PRIEST
05-24-2010, 01:13 PM
The construction industry is dead as far as a career path. Better learn to speak Spanish and work for tortillas.


Getting worse every year. I live in SW Arkansas the money in Construction has went to shit in the last 7 years .Mexicans come in do it all for nothing . I'm gonna have to find something different (I run my own business Remodeling & Roofing ) I will not hire a translator:cuss:

Amnorix
05-24-2010, 03:55 PM
With the exception of you and KC Naive, everybody else who posted in this thread kept it civil and actually discussed the topic, not me.

That's some good company you are keeping, Amno.

:shrug: I don't find you to be a particularly worthwhile contributor to this forum, so until/unless you stop being a mindless shrieking shill, I pretty much plan to point and laugh.

As soon as you start establishing that you're capable of adult conversation, I'll consider engaging in some with you.

I note that this post is a rare exception to my informal rule of not even bothering to respond to you directly.

The Mad Crapper
05-24-2010, 04:03 PM
:shrug: I don't find you to be a particularly worthwhile contributor to this forum, so until/unless you stop being a mindless shrieking shill, I pretty much plan to point and laugh.

As soon as you start establishing that you're capable of adult conversation, I'll consider engaging in some with you.

I note that this post is a rare exception to my informal rule of not even bothering to respond to you directly.

Like I give two craps about your approval. :rolleyes:

Let me tell you something, Chip.

You're a statist stooge. You're boy B.O. is a failure.You should be ashamed of yourself and apologizing for being such a dickhead to actually fall for that crap. But no, like the little brat you are, you're still in here character assassinating away and trying to destroy good people, who care about this country and love this country.

"Point and laugh"? My God, you are that delusional that you think that you or any other O-Bot is in any position of integrity or respect that you can actually make fun of somebody else?

I bump your stupid ass comments from the primaries and the campaign every day you would think that it would humble your sorry ass. But no, you are a mamas boy brat, probably had smoke blown up your ass all your life, so you don't know the meaning of humility. You don't know how to say "sorry, I was wrong". No, just like that commie racist piece of garbage B.O. that you worship you double down on your lies and bullshit.

Point and laugh, indeed.

dirk digler
05-24-2010, 04:14 PM
Like I give two craps about your approval. :rolleyes:

Let me tell you something, Chip.

You're a statist stooge. You're boy B.O. is a failure.You should be ashamed of yourself and apologizing for being such a dickhead to actually fall for that crap. But no, like the little brat you are, you're still in here character assassinating away and trying to destroy good people, who care about this country and love this country.

"Point and laugh"? My God, you are that delusional that you think that you or any other O-Bot is in any position of integrity or respect that you can actually make fun of somebody else?

I bump your stupid ass comments from the primaries and the campaign every day you would think that it would humble your sorry ass. But no, you are a mamas boy brat, probably had smoke blown up your ass all your life, so you don't know the meaning of humility. You don't know how to say "sorry, I was wrong". No, just like that commie racist piece of garbage B.O. that you worship you double down on your lies and bullshit.

Point and laugh, indeed.

If that is the standard in here then this place would be empty because there was a lot of people in here sucking Bush's dick for the last 8 years and look how shitty he turned out and how he drove this country in the ditch.

And if you think you are going to humble anybody that is laughable. No one likes you, respects you and no one pays attention to you. Haven't you noticed everyone ignores you? Maybe you should take the hint but I know you aren't smart enough to do that.

patteeu
05-24-2010, 05:08 PM
If that is the standard in here then this place would be empty because there was a lot of people in here sucking Bush's dick for the last 8 years and look how shitty he turned out and how he drove this country in the ditch.

And if you think you are going to humble anybody that is laughable. No one likes you, respects you and no one pays attention to you. Haven't you noticed everyone ignores you? Maybe you should take the hint but I know you aren't smart enough to do that.

Ah now... just when I think there's a chance you two can start getting along you go and say something mean. Oh well.

Rain Man
05-24-2010, 05:16 PM
Ah now... just when I think there's a chance you two can start getting along you go and say something mean. Oh well.


Don't feel bad. You did everything a peacemaker could do.

dirk digler
05-24-2010, 06:42 PM
Ah now... just when I think there's a chance you two can start getting along you go and say something mean. Oh well.

I have been trying real hard not to start shit mostly by ignoring him and on the occasion that I do engage him he spews his normal bs so it is pretty much a waste of my time. Even the other day he says he wants to kill liberals which shows he isn't stable.

The sad thing is he is person that puts everyone on ignore that he disagrees with or makes him look like an idiot ,which isn't hard by the way, and that includes such stalwart moonbats Brock and mlyonsd.

Brock
05-24-2010, 06:52 PM
He only has me on fake ignore, so it doesn't count.

dirk digler
05-24-2010, 07:00 PM
He only has me on fake ignore, so it doesn't count.

LMAO

BucEyedPea
05-24-2010, 08:07 PM
Don't feel bad. You did everything a peacemaker could do.

Color me shocked! patteeu a peacemaker? Maybe if has finally taken to Reagan's views in his auto bio. ;)