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View Full Version : Int'l Issues 10 dead as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid convoy


pikesome
05-31-2010, 07:23 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=T1


(CNN) -- International condemnation poured in Monday after Israeli soldiers stormed a flotilla of ships carrying aid intended for Palestinians in Gaza, leaving at least 10 people dead in the resulting violence.

Israel claimed it was defending itself, with the Israel Defense Forces saying the soldiers' lives were in danger after they were attacked with "severe physical violence, including live fire, weapons, knives and clubs."

IDF spokeswoman Lt. Col. Avital Leibowitz said light weapons and handguns were confiscated. "We basically encountered a lynch," she said. "We had to control this violence."

But other nations condemned the military action and called for an investigation.

Go read the rest of the article.

One of the other interesting facts is that there were two members of the German Bundestag on board. I'd think that would mean that, in addition to Turkey obviously, the Germans are going to be real interested in WTF the Israelis were doing and why.

pikesome
05-31-2010, 07:26 AM
Also, this thread from Reddit has a lot in it, being constantly updated. You do need to be aware that the Reddit community isn't pro-Israel at the best of times. Grain of salt and some such.

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c9rvt/breaking_israel_attacks_aid_flotilla_in/

Bill Parcells
05-31-2010, 07:34 AM
The boats left European ports in a consolidated protest organized by two pro-Palestinian groups to deliver tons of food and other aid to Gaza to break a blockade imposed by Israel in 2007.

That was on the bottom in real small fine print

ROFL

healthpellets
05-31-2010, 07:48 AM
so this group of "humanitarians" intentionally attempted cross the blockade of a known militaristic government. and now they want my compassion? sorry, not happening.

notorious
05-31-2010, 07:58 AM
Anyone that doesn't think that the media tries to skew things a certain way need to wake up.

patteeu
05-31-2010, 08:15 AM
5 mean and nasty Israeli soldiers were wounded by the peaceful, unarmed civilians aboard the love-filled aid flotilla.

pikesome
05-31-2010, 08:57 AM
Yea, I know that stories like this differ greatly on who's telling it.

However, the Turks, apparently, certified the cargo as "humanitarian", the ship was flying Turkish colors and was in international waters. The Israelis really ought to have a clear justification ready and it doesn't appear they do.

Also the German Bundestag members might make this a far messier situation. That's like if we had a couple of Congressmen onboard, the German government can't be happy.

patteeu
05-31-2010, 09:04 AM
Yea, I know that stories like this differ greatly on who's telling it.

However, the Turks, apparently, certified the cargo as "humanitarian", the ship was flying Turkish colors and was in international waters. The Israelis really ought to have a clear justification ready and it doesn't appear they do.

Also the German Bundestag members might make this a far messier situation. That's like if we had a couple of Congressmen onboard, the German government can't be happy.

What kind of justification are you looking for? The justification for boarding was that the humanitarians refused to turn back when ordered to do so. The justification for using deadly force was that the humanitarians were beating the crap out of the Israeli boarders with bats among other weapons. :shrug:

patteeu
05-31-2010, 09:06 AM
A brutal ambush at sea (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html)

Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of ‘peace activists,’ and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter

Ron Ben-Yishai
Published: 05.31.10, 15:44 / Israel News

Our Navy commandoes fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vessel’s bridge and order the Marmara’s captain to stop.


Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operation’s commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.


Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.


However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.


One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows.


‘I saw the tip of a rifle’

The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.


The planned rush towards the vessel’s bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. “Throw stun grenades,” shouted Flotilla 13’s commander who monitored the operation. The Navy chief was not too far, on board a speedboat belonging to Flotilla 13, along with forces who attempted to climb into the back of the ship.


The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.


Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters’ legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.


“I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell,” one commando said. “He fired at us and we fired back. We didn’t see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldn’t find him.” Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.


2 errors

During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.


Some passengers on the ship stood at the back and pounded the soldiers’ hands as they attempted to climb on board. Only after a 30-minute shootout and brutal assaults using clubs and knifes did commandoes manage to reach the bridge and take over the Marmara.


It appears that the error in planning the operation was the estimate that passengers were indeed political activists and members of humanitarian groups who seek a political provocation, but would not resort to brutal violence. The soldiers thought they will encounter Bilin-style violence; instead, they got Bangkok. The forces that disembarked from the helicopters were few; just dozens of troops – not enough to contend with the large group awaiting them.


The second error was that commanders did not address seriously enough the fact that a group of men were expecting the soldiers on the top deck. Had they addressed this more seriously, they may have hurled tear-gas grenades and smoke grenades from the helicopter to create a screen that would have enabled them to carry out their mission, without the fighters falling right into the hands of the rioters, who severely assaulted them.

HonestChieffan
05-31-2010, 09:10 AM
Watch the lefties pile on. Sounds like the Israelis knew what was on that "aid" shipment. Good on them.

pikesome
05-31-2010, 09:13 AM
What kind of justification are you looking for? The justification for boarding was that the humanitarians refused to turn back when ordered to do so. The justification for using deadly force was that the humanitarians were beating the crap out of the Israeli boarders with bats among other weapons. :shrug:

What right does the IDF have to board ships in international waters? Especially ships of other countries. If an Israeli ship fired a couple of shots across it's bow, maybe. Or if the boat was in Israeli waters and wouldn't heave to. I guess the boarding is the problem I have. Everything seems to flow from that decision.

mikey23545
05-31-2010, 09:22 AM
Don't mess with the Zohan...

patteeu
05-31-2010, 09:47 AM
What right does the IDF have to board ships in international waters? Especially ships of other countries. If an Israeli ship fired a couple of shots across it's bow, maybe. Or if the boat was in Israeli waters and wouldn't heave to. I guess the boarding is the problem I have. Everything seems to flow from that decision.

Israel is blockading Gaza, which effectively makes this a wartime operation. No one should be confused about the fact that this is a war zone. There is no dispute about the fact that the intent of this aid flotilla was to reach Gaza. I have no sympathy for a ship being boarded, even in international waters, under those conditions.

If we had concerns about ships reaching Iraq with supplies for the insurgency there, would you find it unacceptable for US ships to take control of the Persian Gulf and stop/board/turn back any suspect vessels even though it happens outside of US territorial waters?

The Mad Crapper
05-31-2010, 09:48 AM
I wish everbody would stop picking on the muslims.

HonestChieffan
05-31-2010, 10:08 AM
Too bad the IDF videoed the whole thing. Makes the Palestinians look like the terrorists they are. No wonder Obama is all butt hurt for his buddies.

Bill Parcells
05-31-2010, 10:11 AM
Too bad the IDF videoed the whole thing. Makes the Palestinians look like the terrorists they are. No wonder Obama is all butt hurt for his buddies.

what people keep forgetting is that the Palestinians are being governed by Hamas (a Terrorist organization). since when did the U.S. or any other countries start recognizing Hamas as a legitimate govt? oh wait Hillary Clinton and Obama do.

ROFL

memyselfI
05-31-2010, 10:56 AM
Again on the eve of or right after they are scheduled to meet with Lite. ROFLROFLROFL

He's so impotent right now that even our friends don't mind tell him to f'off.

OTOH, it IS a nice diversion from the oil spill so I would not be surprised to hear that the WH knew of this ahead of time if not tacitly condoned it.

vailpass
05-31-2010, 11:25 AM
The jews don't have the luxury of worrying about what the liberal media will say. Theirs is a life-or-death situation every day and they have the courage of their convictions to act accordingly and let the chips fall where they may.
Good on them.

notorious
05-31-2010, 12:17 PM
What Israel is going through would be like if The Soviet Union was located where Mexico AND Canada are back in the Cold War.




x 100

chiefforlife
05-31-2010, 01:11 PM
They set out to intentionally penetrate a blockade, into a war zone? Not sure what they thought was going to happen but now they know.

patteeu
05-31-2010, 02:03 PM
Too bad the IDF videoed the whole thing. Makes the Palestinians look like the terrorists they are. No wonder Obama is all butt hurt for his buddies.

After seeing some of the video, it's clear to me that Israel is going to win this PR battle with any fair minded people. Of course, I don't expect that to mean anything to those who are already committed to the anti-Israeli pov around the world (including those in our own White House).

thecoffeeguy
05-31-2010, 02:09 PM
After seeing some of the video, it's clear to me that Israel is going to win this PR battle with any fair minded people. Of course, I don't expect that to mean anything to those who are already committed to the anti-Israeli pov around the world (including those in our own White House).

Obama, come on down!

The Mad Crapper
05-31-2010, 02:16 PM
Has anyone actually seen B.O. eat a ham sandwich?

mlyonsd
05-31-2010, 02:36 PM
I'm starting to believe these people really don't like each other.

notorious
05-31-2010, 02:39 PM
I'm starting to believe these people really don't like each other.

Naaa, as long as Israel apologizes, admits they were wrong, and gives them everything they think that they are entitled to, they will live in harmony.

patteeu
05-31-2010, 03:37 PM
Has anyone actually seen B.O. eat a ham sandwich?

:LOL:

Fritz88
05-31-2010, 04:18 PM
A comment that I came across and liked

"peculiar how Israel is always violently attacked but it's only the ‘attackers’ who die"

The Mad Crapper
05-31-2010, 04:39 PM
A comment that I came across and liked

"peculiar how Israel is always violently attacked but it's only the ‘attackers’ who die"

Noam Chomsky?

go bowe
05-31-2010, 07:25 PM
Naaa, as long as Israel apologizes, admits they were wrong, and gives them everything they think that they are entitled to, they will live in harmony.they can't possibly give back everything, that would include all the land in israel, which would become palstine again...

go bowe
05-31-2010, 07:25 PM
A comment that I came across and liked

"peculiar how Israel is always violently attacked but it's only the ‘attackers’ who die"tell that to the bombing victims...

ChiefaRoo
05-31-2010, 07:41 PM
Most of the people from that part of the world are emotionally unhinged.

notorious
05-31-2010, 08:34 PM
they can't possibly give back everything, that would include all the land in israel, which would become palstine again...

I know, that is why I am being sarcastic.


In the Muslim world, the expect everyone to bend to their will because they have God behind them. ROFL

Direckshun
05-31-2010, 11:53 PM
That was on the bottom in real small fine print

ROFL

Tons of food and aids.

Oh noes, send the copters.

Direckshun
05-31-2010, 11:55 PM
so this group of "humanitarians" intentionally attempted cross the blockade of a known militaristic government. and now they want my compassion? sorry, not happening.

I don't know if its the activists deserving compassion so much as the condemnation of the "known militaristic government."

And this attack was in international waters. Which violates international law. There's a reason only the wingnuts are rushing to defend Israel here.

This is a move, much like the North Korea submarine attack, which defies law, logic, and the security of a free world, to say nothing of Israel's own security.

Direckshun
05-31-2010, 11:59 PM
5 mean and nasty Israeli soldiers were wounded by the peaceful, unarmed civilians aboard the love-filled aid flotilla.

Boo hoo. That's what happens when you illegally copter in troops from one of the world's most powerful militaries on a foreign vessel you have no authority over in international waters.

Don't blame the activists, who were acting in self-defense, utilized almost entirely homemade weapons, and killed no one. Blame the Israeli diplomats for authorizing such a ridiculous use of force in international waters. An illegal use of force that killed over a dozen civilians.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:03 AM
What kind of justification are you looking for? The justification for boarding was that the humanitarians refused to turn back when ordered to do so. The justification for using deadly force was that the humanitarians were beating the crap out of the Israeli boarders with bats among other weapons. :shrug:

They can refuse to do whatever the hell they want in international waters. You cannot attack them.

And that doesn't even include whatever misguided policy Israel has embraced to prevent humanitarian aid to a Palestinian population within its own borders.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:05 AM
[i]A brutal ambush at sea (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html)

Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of ‘peace activists,’ and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter

Ron Ben-Yishai
Published: 05.31.10, 15:44 / Israel News

Typical move from you.

Just like you ingested press releases from the Bush administration and treated them like gospel over all other forces, you are going to buy the Isreali defense without context or consideration. So long as the Israelis say it, pat will buy it. No questions asked.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:07 AM
Watch the lefties pile on. Sounds like the Israelis knew what was on that "aid" shipment. Good on them.

Yeah, watch the lefties... like, the entire planet.

Israel is isolating itself. "Lefties" at this point is anybody who is to the left of "no two-state solution over Netanyahu's dead body."

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:12 AM
Israel is blockading Gaza, which effectively makes this a wartime operation. No one should be confused about the fact that this is a war zone. There is no dispute about the fact that the intent of this aid flotilla was to reach Gaza. I have no sympathy for a ship being boarded, even in international waters, under those conditions.

If we had concerns about ships reaching Iraq with supplies for the insurgency there, would you find it unacceptable for US ships to take control of the Persian Gulf and stop/board/turn back any suspect vessels even though it happens outside of US territorial waters?

Israel and Gaza are the warzone. Not international waters. You should know this, the United States are the masters at utilizing international waters.

This was a humanitarian effort that was so dangerous apparently, they met soldiers who were zip-lined in from a copter, armed with rifles, with almost entirely homemade weapons. And killed no one.

Even when the United States was occupying Iraq, we still attempted to provide humanitarian aid to the civilian population.

Israel will deny even that. That's madness. And it's not what a Western society does.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:14 AM
Too bad the IDF videoed the whole thing. Makes the Palestinians look like the terrorists they are. No wonder Obama is all butt hurt for his buddies.

The aid vessel was unarmed, with the only weapons used by the protesters were maybe a couple handguns being the only actual weapons that weren't improvised, and it's not clear that they weren't taken from an IDF paratrooper.

The folks on board were acting in self-defense.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:19 AM
what people keep forgetting is that the Palestinians are being governed by Hamas (a Terrorist organization). since when did the U.S. or any other countries start recognizing Hamas as a legitimate govt? oh wait Hillary Clinton and Obama do.

ROFL

Not all countries regard Hamas like we do. Not all countries deem it a terrorist organization. I'm closer to the UK designation, which claims Hamas itself is not a terrorist organization, but features a rogue military wing that is.

Hamas is fairly popular amongst the Palestinian people for two reasons: it works harder than any other Palestinian organization for humanitarian aid and community construction, and a belief that they can provide security.

Actions like this only fuel Hamas attraction in Gaza. This cycle can't end until Israel starts acting more like diplomats with security issues than oppressive, ethnocentric tyrants.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:21 AM
OTOH, it IS a nice diversion from the oil spill so I would not be surprised to hear that the WH knew of this ahead of time if not tacitly condoned it.

This is deep-end stuff.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:22 AM
The jews don't have the luxury of worrying about what the liberal media will say. Theirs is a life-or-death situation every day and they have the courage of their convictions to act accordingly and let the chips fall where they may.
Good on them.

Humanitarian aid for Palestinian civilians resembles a life or death threat to Isreal?

Who are they, the Soviet Union?

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:24 AM
What Israel is going through would be like if The Soviet Union was located where Mexico AND Canada are back in the Cold War.

x 100

I think this action only makes their security situation worse.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:26 AM
They set out to intentionally penetrate a blockade, into a war zone? Not sure what they thought was going to happen but now they know.

I also think that's fair.

But this is a war zone, and Israel's actions were disproportionate and indefensible to anybody but AIPAC, who signs all of the GOP's checks now.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:28 AM
After seeing some of the video, it's clear to me that Israel is going to win this PR battle with any fair minded people. Of course, I don't expect that to mean anything to those who are already committed to the anti-Israeli pov around the world (including those in our own White House).

You're not going to violate international law, kill over a dozen civilians, and suffer only a handful of injuries in an effort to prevent food and medicine from an impoverished and oppressed population and going to win too many polls outside of the AIPAC/Fox News/neoconservative Republican Party.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:31 AM
Naaa, as long as Israel apologizes, admits they were wrong, and gives them everything they think that they are entitled to, they will live in harmony.

I think if Israel allows them free access to food and medicine, gives them their own land without preemptively stealing its most sacred patches, and respects their democratic decisions, treating them with the nuance they deserve, you're going to get a phenomenally more stable situation on the ground in Israel.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:33 AM
A comment that I came across and liked

"peculiar how Israel is always violently attacked but it's only the ‘attackers’ who die"

YNet, a rightwing Jewish outlet, described the activists on the ship as "rioters."

Rioters. On their own ship. After being attacked. Rioters.

I mean, you've got to be kidding me.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:35 AM
Most of the people from that part of the world are emotionally unhinged.

Inadvertantly, you've described the Netanyahu administration in this situation more than anybody.

Direckshun
06-01-2010, 12:36 AM
I know, that is why I am being sarcastic.

In the Muslim world, the expect everyone to bend to their will because they have God behind them. ROFL

In the human world, we expect everyone to receive food and medicine from those who want to offer it. Because they're human.

To be on the other side of that is to be inhuman.

And that's exactly what happened here. Inhumanity.

googlegoogle
06-01-2010, 02:46 AM
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jun/01/israels-gaza-blockade-baffles-residents/

patteeu
06-01-2010, 05:40 AM
A comment that I came across and liked

"peculiar how Israel is always violently attacked but it's only the ‘attackers’ who die"

Peculiar in the sense that it's false, I guess.

patteeu
06-01-2010, 05:48 AM
I don't know if its the activists deserving compassion so much as the condemnation of the "known militaristic government."

And this attack was in international waters. Which violates international law. There's a reason only the wingnuts are rushing to defend Israel here.

This is a move, much like the North Korea submarine attack, which defies law, logic, and the security of a free world, to say nothing of Israel's own security.

You should have stopped after your first three words.

The fact that it happened in international waters doesn't make it a violation of international law.

It's not at all analogous to the North Korean submarine attack. The North Koreans gave no warning. The South Korean ship had no option to withdraw and avoid the consequences. The North Korean attack was intended to be lethal. By contrast, the Israelis warned the aid ships to turn back and when they boarded, they were armed with only sidearms and paint guns. The Israelis bent over backward to take a beating before resorting to violence themselves.

notorious
06-01-2010, 05:52 AM
In the human world, we expect everyone to receive food and medicine from those who want to offer it. Because they're human.

To be on the other side of that is to be inhuman.

And that's exactly what happened here. Inhumanity.

Situations like this are never black/white. Israel has been put in such a bad situation they are obviously going to make mistakes.

If I were in their situation, I would rather make a mistake and kill 11 people then allow something through that will have the capability to kill thousands.

HonestChieffan
06-01-2010, 05:56 AM
http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/05/anti-shalit-flotilla-updates.html

patteeu
06-01-2010, 06:12 AM
Situations like this are never black/white. Israel has been put in such a bad situation they are obviously going to make mistakes.

If I were in their situation, I would rather make a mistake and kill 11 people then allow something through that will have the capability to kill thousands.

Especially since their mistake wasn't in choosing to kill a small number of people to potentially save a lot, but instead simply that they underestimated the belligerence of these activists. Had they been prepared for the violence, I suspect they could have boarded the ship with fewer casualties.

jjjayb
06-01-2010, 06:20 AM
Every little bit of liberal tripe I just spouted.

What a sad sad time in our history. Our media brainwashed masses being led to the downfall of our greatness like lambs being led to slaughter. It is amazing to me how many liberals on this board are so quick to jump to the aid of our enemies and the enemies of our allies. Oh those poor little Palestineans. All they want to do is blindly launch rockets into civilian areas. All they need is a big hug and they'll be nicer. Quick, everybody join hands and sing Kumbaya. That'll bring about peace.

Thank God this emasculated brainwashed generation of "men" wasn't around when Hitler was.

HonestChieffan
06-01-2010, 06:29 AM
If we ever had a relationship with Israel Obama is rapidly leaving it in the dust. His first move, had he been a true ally, would have been to discuss the effort with the Israelis. But they cannot trust him so he was flat footed and uninformed. He should have come directly to their side on the issue not throw them under the buss as he defended the terrorist Hammas.

HonestChieffan
06-01-2010, 06:41 AM
http://www.bookwormroom.com/2010/05/31/footage-the-israelis-shot-showing-events-on-board-the-ship/

healthpellets
06-01-2010, 06:48 AM
hell, i'd prefer that we (US) not be involved whatsoever in this situation. i'm all for any state defending itself, as long as we don't deal with the blowback.

HonestChieffan
06-01-2010, 06:54 AM
North Korea sinks a S Korean ship. UN does nothing like the worthless bunch we expect. Israel defends itself and UN has a meeting with no information and condemns Israel. Obama cheers.

notorious
06-01-2010, 07:22 AM
hell, i'd prefer that we (US) not be involved whatsoever in this situation. i'm all for any state defending itself, as long as we don't deal with the blowback.

One can't help but think that our relationship with Israel is a large reason we have a lot of our problems with terrorists.


I am almost of the opinion that we need to let the world take care of their problems. I am tired of the US trying to help only to be scorned. Let them deal with it.

HonestChieffan
06-01-2010, 07:26 AM
One can't help but think that our relationship with Israel is a large reason we have a lot of our problems with terrorists.


I am almost of the opinion that we need to let the world take care of their problems. I am tired of the US trying to help only to be scorned. Let them deal with it.

Thats what they want you to think. The logical extension then id=s the global extermination of the Jew and we will live in peace and harmony. I don't think thats what we should believe

notorious
06-01-2010, 07:28 AM
Thats what they want you to think. The logical extension then id=s the global extermination of the Jew and we will live in peace and harmony. I don't think thats what we should believe

I know that is exactly what they are trying to do. They are trying to bloody our nose enough to get us out of the fight, because they know that if anything went down in the middle east, there would be a shitstorm of technological killing machines bringing the fight inside their homes.

If they had our military, this world would be HELL.

Bill Parcells
06-01-2010, 08:58 AM
Not all countries regard Hamas like we do. Not all countries deem it a terrorist organization. I'm closer to the UK designation, which claims Hamas itself is not a terrorist organization, but features a rogue military wing that is.


LOL! and one that they cant control. and the Palestinian people love and claim to be freedom fighters ;)

Hamas is fairly popular amongst the Palestinian people for two reasons: it works harder than any other Palestinian organization for humanitarian aid and community construction, and a belief that they can provide security.

Actions like this only fuel Hamas attraction in Gaza. This cycle can't end until Israel starts acting more like diplomats with security issues than oppressive, ethnocentric tyrants.

Oh please..terrorist propaganda has made Hamas famous. Your good friends, the mullahs from Iran have been funding their armed wing for 2 decades. and Iran is a terrorist nation that the brits had political ties too before.

were you even born yet during the Iranian hostage ordeal?

ClevelandBronco
06-01-2010, 09:43 AM
International leftists (including American dopes and dupes such as Direcktile Dysfuncshun) and their allied Islamists will use this to whatever advantage they can. The truth of the incident from any other viewpoint will not matter.

It was a staged incident.

boogblaster
06-01-2010, 09:48 AM
At least the Jews are shooting their own guns and not hiring it done .....

vailpass
06-01-2010, 11:24 AM
Humanitarian aid for Palestinian civilians resembles a life or death threat to Isreal?

Who are they, the Soviet Union?

Congratulations on having the most consecutive posts in one thread I've ever seen. You are one spun-up psycho midget, you might want to lighten up just a little bit and quit licking the boots of those who would like nothing more than to stomp you to death.

go bowe
06-01-2010, 12:16 PM
Congratulations on having the most consecutive posts in one thread I've ever seen. You are one spun-up psycho midget, you might want to lighten up just a little bit and quit licking the boots of those who would like nothing more than to stomp you to death.most consecutive posts?

do you remember endelt?

mlyonsd
06-01-2010, 12:19 PM
most consecutive posts?

do you remember endelt?

Whatever happened to endelt?

go bowe
06-01-2010, 12:21 PM
Whatever happened to endelt?he got a life?

mlyonsd
06-01-2010, 12:25 PM
he got a life?

Ok, just as long as he didn' get so drunk he choked to death on his own vomit or something.

go bowe
06-01-2010, 12:36 PM
Ok, just as long as he didn' get so drunk he choked to death on his own vomit or something.it's more likely that a fattie rolled over on him...

HonestChieffan
06-01-2010, 12:40 PM
Ater the "aid" workers brutal attack on the IDF boarders, the IDF disarmed the ship and went ahead and got the aid packages and supplies delivered. And not one lefty media source will report it ever happened.


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InChiefsHell
06-01-2010, 12:55 PM
Ater the "aid" workers brutal attack on the IDF boarders, the IDF disarmed the ship and went ahead and got the aid packages and supplies delivered. And not one lefty media source will report it ever happened.


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LIES! PHOTOSHOP! ZIONIST BASTARDS!

vailpass
06-01-2010, 01:22 PM
most consecutive posts?

do you remember endelt?

:D
Delt was in a whole different category than a nutjob like Deflekshun.

PornChief
06-02-2010, 02:13 AM
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_how_hamas_fooled_the_west/

NOTHING more to be said. Israeli soldiers kill at least nine peace activists trying to ship aid to a starving people.

Or as the front page of The Age screamed: “Israel kills boat protesters.”

End of story. There are immediate riots and protests against this appalling brutality in London, Paris, New York, Istanbul, Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra and throughout the Middle East.

The United Nations whacks Israel and calls for an emergency meeting of the Security Council. And from Moscow to Washington, Israel stands utterly friendless. Dangerously alone.

What a coup for those pledged to the destruction of that tiny Jewish country. How discredited and invitingly defenceless Israel now seems. Someone couldn’t have scripted this any better.

Well, almost no better, because even the journalists most sympathetic to the activists on the six ships intercepted on Monday by Israel couldn’t help but refer, albeit grudgingly, to a couple of untidy details too obvious to ignore.

ABC radio host Jon Faine, for instance, described these poor victims of Zionist aggression as “humanitarian activists with a few knives”.

Er, with knives? Humanitarians?

And a strident report in The Age, Australia’s most Left-wing metropolitan daily, conceded that video of the Israeli soldiers being lowered on to the ships from helicopters did show that some of the “hundreds of politicians and protesters” on board did offer “signs of resistance”.

Here are some of those “signs of the resistance” that this Age reporter tactfully failed to detail.

You see the Israeli commandos, at first brandishing just paint-ball guns, being grabbed by mobs as they landed, dragged to the ground, and beaten brutally with metal pipes and clubs.

On another clip, apparently shot by protesters, you see a soldier stabbed in the back, and then in the front.

Another soldier is shown being beaten and thrown over the side.

Photographs show two Israeli soldiers, one of them shot, being carried off with serious wounds.

This isn’t what you’d normally expect from “peace protesters” or “humanitarian activists”, even those armed merely “with a few knives”.

So these clues suggest the Western media - and many foolish politicians - have just fallen for a brilliant propaganda coup by the kind of Islamists who threaten us, too.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd also fell for it, saying he was “deeply concerned” by the deaths and condemning “any use of violence under the sorts of circumstances we have seen”.

His Foreign Affairs Minister, Stephen Smith, likewise attacked Israel for a “terrible and shocking event” and demanded it hold an inquiry.

Not once did Rudd or Smith suggest an inquiry into who organised this trap in which Israel had fallen - or into those who now stand most to gain.

The despairing Israeli ambassador, Yuval Rotem, could only congratulate the organisers: “They couldn’t have had a better outcome.”

So who are we talking about? Here’s another vital clue.

The Israeli soldiers took over six ships of an “aid” flotilla trying to pierce the blockade that both Israel and Egypt have imposed on Gaza, a territory controlled by the Islamist Hamas.

Only on one of those six ships did the Israelis meet a resistance that clearly - and fatally - caught them by surprise.

This was not on one of the ships manned by the Western politicians, aid workers and other useful idiots brought along for camouflage.

It broke out instead on the Mavi Marmara, a ship bought and supplied by a Turkish “humanitarian relief fund” known as IHH.

IHH may boast about its good works, but intelligence agencies warn that it is in fact tied to Islamist terrorists.

The CIA as long ago as 1996 noted it was linked to “Iran operatives” and gave “support for extremist/terrorist activity”, including in Bosnia.

In 2001, Jean-Louis Bruguiere, the prominent French counter-terrorism magistrate, said at the trial of the “millennium bomber” that IHH had played “an important role” in the plot to blow up Los Angeles airport.

He said the charity was “a type of cover up” to infiltrate mujahideen into combat, get forged documents and smuggle weapons.

In 2006, the Danish Institute for International Studies reported that Turkish security forces had raided the IHH’s Istanbul bureau and found firearms, explosives and bomb-making instructions, as well as records of calls to an al-Qaida guest house in Milan.

The Turkish investigators concluded this “charity” was sending jihadists to Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan, where Australian soldiers serve.

IHH has also been a long-time supporter of Hamas, listed in many countries as a terrorist group.

But this time it planned something more effective than an explosion. It decided to destroy Israel’s moral standing among its more fickle friends.

Its Mavi Marmara would now head a flotilla to break through the Israeli blockade of Gaza - or, rather, to provoke Israel into stopping it by force.

IHH head Bulent Yildirim gloated that this would be seen as “a declaration of war” against all the countries that supplied the flotilla’s passengers, which is why so many foreigners, and particularly sympathetic journalists such as the Sydney Morning Herald’s Paul McGeough, were on board, having been recruited from Australia, Britain, the US and many other countries that IHH and its allies hoped could be turned into enemies of Israel.

It was obvious Israel would stop the convoy. It had to: to relax the blockade once would be to open a corridor to yet more ships, giving Gaza yet another conduit for the smuggling of jihadists and militarily useful supplies.

Oh, and ignore soothing claims now that Hamas, which runs Gaza, should actually be negotiated with, rather than blockaded. Hamas fires rockets at Israeli civilians, and has a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel, declaring “there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad”.

Indeed, jihad was also the spirit on the Mavi Marmara as it sailed for Gaza.

Those on board refused offers by Israel that they dock at an Israeli port so their aid could be checked and forwarded to Gaza. They rejected warnings to turn back. They prepared instead for a deadly confrontation.

Arab television showed one woman on board exulting: “We await one of two good things - to achieve martyrdom or reach the shore of Gaza.”

Added another passenger, Yemeni professor Abd al-Fatah Nu’man: “These are people who wish to be martyred for the sake of Allah. As much as they want to reach Gaza, the other option is more desirable to them.”

They got just what they wanted, then, as did Hamas and its chief backer, Iran.

Iran, needing attention distracted from its nuclear weapons program, pumped out instant YouTube footage of this Israeli “atrocity”.

Meanwhile Hamas spokesman Samil Abu Zuhri called for a global “intifada”: “We call on all Arabs and Muslims to rise up in front of Zionist embassies across the whole world.”

And in capital cities around Australia, we yesterday saw the new front open as angry demonstrators took the streets.

So what, you may scoff. A few of the usual hotheads.

But see this time how many of our politicians, journalists and “thinkers” are on the wrong side of this front.

See how willingly they’ve surrendered to an Islamist plot more effective than any Bali bomb.

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 05:37 AM
http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/100948920_3d37f3e194.jpg

InChiefsHell
06-02-2010, 06:26 AM
Wow. Crickets are chirping like mad now...

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 07:31 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PxZyE6Jgabo/TAZJDGpYJJI/AAAAAAAAcL8/Ww0BfZsLnj8/s1600/theo4.jpg

Fritz88
06-02-2010, 07:42 AM
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The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 08:54 AM
<" height="385"></embed></object>

ROFL:drool::LOL::doh!:Stooges:stupid:LMAO

ForeverChiefs58
06-02-2010, 09:41 AM
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So, Fritz, what do you think Isreal should do differently? Just curious.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 12:41 PM
So, Fritz, what do you think Isreal should do differently? Just curious.i don't know about fritz, but one thing that might help a lot would be to immediately freeze construction of settlements and make a commitment to remove all settlements as part of an overall comprehensive peace package...

land, particularly in the occupied territories, is one of the root causes of this continuing conflict...

certainly not the only cause, and not the most important, but a very significant contributing factor nonetheless...

imo, such a commitment could lead to a return to the peace process with a chance of actually making progress toward a comprehensive settlement...

Cave Johnson
06-02-2010, 12:56 PM
I blame (Ehud) Barak.

Here's what Israel killed nine civilians for:

Toys, some wheelchairs and a lot of used clothes.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/the-existential-threat.html

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 12:58 PM
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Here is video of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu forcefully defending actions taken by Israeli Defense Forces to defend themselves in the face of attacks by passengers aboard a Pro-Palestinian Ship that attempted to run Israel’s blockade of Gaza. Netanyahu said Israel “cannot permit Iran” and others to ship arms at will to Gaza. As a result, Israel will not permit ships to pass uninspected to port.
Netanyahu said Israel “time and again” offered to take any humanitarian aid on to Gaza, but the flotilla rejected the offers.
The Prime Minister said the passengers aboard the “Mavi Marmara” were not “pacifists, peace activists. These were violent supporters of terrorism.” He said Israeli forces acted to defend themselves after being attacked.
Netanyahu said the International Community has once again taken the attitude, “Israel is guilty until proven guilty.” He said it is as if the world wants to tell Israel they have the right to defend themselves, but every time they do so, they are criticized.
Netanyahu said “We will never apologize for defending ourselves. . . . Israel should not be held to a double-standard. . . . The Jewish State has a right to defend itself just like any other state.”
What a great leader Netanyahu is. How refreshing it is to hear a leader speak with force and clarity, instead of with mealy-mouthed diplomatic double-speak.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 01:00 PM
I blame (Ehud) Barak.

Here's what Israel killed nine civilians for:

Toys, some wheelchairs and a lot of used clothes.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/the-existential-threat.html

So why didn't the boat go through Haifa Port like it was supposed to?

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Communists_Obama_Poster_260.gif

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 01:04 PM
And all the humanitarian cargo sits in trucks waiting to be delivered...but with the arms taken away and the terrorists sent away, Hamas doesn't seem to want the cargo at all....a scam, a set up, and a way to create an issue. Right from Obamas rulebook.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137850

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 01:05 PM
This will never see the light of day in our pro muslim anti israel media


http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 01:15 PM
I guess moonbats don't know or care why Israel has a blockade of Gaza in the first place.

http://www.moonbattery.com/cat-vs-corrie.jpg

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 01:19 PM
I guess moonbats don't know or care why Israel has a blockade of Gaza in the first place.

http://www.moonbattery.com/cat-vs-corrie.jpg


Thats not relevant. Israel cannot protect herself in Moonbat Land

InChiefsHell
06-02-2010, 01:20 PM
i don't know about fritz, but one thing that might help a lot would be to immediately freeze construction of settlements and make a commitment to remove all settlements as part of an overall comprehensive peace package...

land, particularly in the occupied territories, is one of the root causes of this continuing conflict...

certainly not the only cause, and not the most important, but a very significant contributing factor nonetheless...

imo, such a commitment could lead to a return to the peace process with a chance of actually making progress toward a comprehensive settlement...

Wow. And then what would the Palestinians do in return? You gotta be kidding me if you think either side will give an inch or feel like they should. They don't trust each other, just read up on the Camp David Summit that Clinton had.

If I'm Israel, I'm not giving up jack shit and I'm protecting my country. The Palestinians are pawns of the big players in the ME, who really don't give a shit about them. As long as Israel can be portrayed as the "bad boogy man" the Palestinians serve a purpose to Iran, Saudi, etc. If they really gave a shit about these people, they'd give them settlements inside their own countries.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 01:21 PM
And all the humanitarian cargo sits in trucks waiting to be delivered...but with the arms taken away and the terrorists sent away, Hamas doesn't seem to want the cargo at all....a scam, a set up, and a way to create an issue. Right from Obamas rulebook.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137850no, no, no...

it's not obama's rulebook...

it's obama's playbook...

try to keep up...

talastan
06-02-2010, 01:24 PM
i don't know about fritz, but one thing that might help a lot would be to immediately freeze construction of settlements and make a commitment to remove all settlements as part of an overall comprehensive peace package...

land, particularly in the occupied territories, is one of the root causes of this continuing conflict...

certainly not the only cause, and not the most important, but a very significant contributing factor nonetheless...

imo, such a commitment could lead to a return to the peace process with a chance of actually making progress toward a comprehensive settlement...

I understand where you're coming from go bowe, but unfortunately every time Israel has done the land for peace thing, it comes back to bite them in the @ss. Hezbollah and Hamas both continue to attack and if more land is conceded than they will just give the terrorists a closer and more strategic target.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 01:25 PM
no, no, no...

it's not obama's rulebook...

it's obama's playbook...

try to keep up...

The rulebook is by Saul Alinsky.

;)

talastan
06-02-2010, 01:25 PM
no, no, no...

it's not obama's rulebook...

it's obama's playbook...

try to keep up...

Could someone call Ray Farmer to confiscate Obama's playbook.

"Hey Barack, Ray wants to see you in his office!"

patteeu
06-02-2010, 01:27 PM
I blame (Ehud) Barak.

Here's what Israel killed nine civilians for:

Toys, some wheelchairs and a lot of used clothes.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/the-existential-threat.html

Meh. I blame people like Pittsie, Direckshun, Fritz, and Andrew Sullivan. Useful idiots (or more likely knowing shills) who have all the resources to actually understand the truth but who contort themselves to blame Israel nonetheless.

Without receptive westerners like these, there would be no reason for provocations and staged martyrdom operations like this one.

BTW, the cargo is irrelevant. Blockades are enforceable against all traffic, not just arms shipments or other types of contraband. In this case, Israel repeatedly notified the flotilla that all humanitarian cargo would be allowed into Gaza after it was properly inspected according to the procedures established for the blockade. Procedures with which the flotilla refused to comply.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 01:32 PM
Wow. And then what would the Palestinians do in return? You gotta be kidding me if you think either side will give an inch or feel like they should. They don't trust each other, just read up on the Camp David Summit that Clinton had.

If I'm Israel, I'm not giving up jack shit and I'm protecting my country. The Palestinians are pawns of the big players in the ME, who really don't give a shit about them. As long as Israel can be portrayed as the "bad boogy man" the Palestinians serve a purpose to Iran, Saudi, etc. If they really gave a shit about these people, they'd give them settlements inside their own countries.i don't know what the palestinians would do in return, but even if they don't do anything at all, it's a start to negotiating a settlement...

the commitment that i'm suggesting would be contingent on a comprehensive peace settlement, like the one they managed to get with egypt...

i'm not sure trust has a whole lot to do with it...

successful negotiation is the art of compromise while still protecting your vital interests...

it is not capitulation to negotiate for peace...

there is a peace movement within israel and there is some support for real negotiations with the palestinians...

i agree with you that other players use the palestinian situation to further their own ends...

but that doesn't change the fact that the only way israel ever gets the kind of peace it has with egypt is through negotiation and a willingness to at least agree that some things could be part of an overall comprehensive settlement...

fwiw, i totally agree that israel, like any other state has the right to defend itself and the soldiers that were attacked on the ship had every right to defend themselves against deadly force...

israel is getting hosed on this incident, and the prime minister is right about the double standard and the israel being guilty until proven guilty thing...

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 01:38 PM
ok, can we just get out of the entire Middle East and let them do whatever it is what they want to do? if Turkey thinks they have the sack to fight Isreal, let's see it. but I don't want the US involved. ever. at all. anywhere.

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 01:39 PM
Allies. Look it up.

Israels enemy is the US enemy.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 01:45 PM
I understand where you're coming from go bowe, but unfortunately every time Israel has done the land for peace thing, it comes back to bite them in the @ss. Hezbollah and Hamas both continue to attack and if more land is conceded than they will just give the terrorists a closer and more strategic target.not every time, egypt got the sinai back and israel got peace with egypt...

as far as the proximity issue, the palestinian militant groups are already close enough to attack almost any part of israel (with continued iranian help)...

and, to be clear, i'm not suggesting that israel give up any land right now, but only to make the commitment that they will in fact withdraw from the territories as part of the overall peace settlement to be negotiated...

go bowe
06-02-2010, 01:46 PM
The rulebook is by Saul Alinsky.

;)good point, i'll try harder to keep up... :eek: :eek: :eek:

go bowe
06-02-2010, 01:46 PM
Could someone call Ray Farmer to confiscate Obama's playbook.

"Hey Barack, Ray wants to see you in his office!":LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

go bowe
06-02-2010, 01:51 PM
* * *
Without receptive westerners like these, there would be no reason for provocations and staged martyrdom operations like this one.
* * *i dunno...

seems like the provocations and martyrdom operations are just as much for domestic consumption...

continuing hostilities are necessary for hamas to hold on to it's power in gaza, and provoking israel always escalates the hostilities...

go bowe
06-02-2010, 01:53 PM
ok, can we just get out of the entire Middle East (?)one word...






oil...

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 01:53 PM
Let's have some fun with moonbats:

Can anybody tell me why it's called the "West" bank when it's on the eastern border of Israel?

Can anybody tell me why Egypt doesn't want the Gaza strip back, when it was there property in the first place?

Can anybody explain why 5 Arab countries invaded Israel in 1967? Can anyone name those countries?

googlegoogle
06-02-2010, 01:55 PM
I don't understand why israeli soldiers rappelled from a helicopter in international waters?

They had to know some of those idiots were going to hit them with something.

patteeu
06-02-2010, 01:58 PM
i don't know what the palestinians would do in return, but even if they don't do anything at all, it's a start to negotiating a settlement...

the commitment that i'm suggesting would be contingent on a comprehensive peace settlement, like the one they managed to get with egypt...

i'm not sure trust has a whole lot to do with it...

successful negotiation is the art of compromise while still protecting your vital interests...

it is not capitulation to negotiate for peace...

there is a peace movement within israel and there is some support for real negotiations with the palestinians...

i agree with you that other players use the palestinian situation to further their own ends...

but that doesn't change the fact that the only way israel ever gets the kind of peace it has with egypt is through negotiation and a willingness to at least agree that some things could be part of an overall comprehensive settlement...

fwiw, i totally agree that israel, like any other state has the right to defend itself and the soldiers that were attacked on the ship had every right to defend themselves against deadly force...

israel is getting hosed on this incident, and the prime minister is right about the double standard and the israel being guilty until proven guilty thing...

The Israelis consider some of the territory gained in their defensive wars essential to their security and they are unwilling to give those back. The offer made when Clinton was in office is, IMO, the high water mark of what the palestinians can hope for. Arafat responded with an intifada. The rest of the world does the palestinians no favors by pressuring Israel to continue to make concessions and offer olive branches. The pressure should be on the palestinians to accept the best offer they can get and lay down their rocks, suicide belts, and weapons for good. The Israelis have demonstrated a willingness to accept a 2 state solution but the palestinians have failed to demonstrate the same willingness by continuing to insist on concessions that they know the Israelis can never offer (eg right of return).

patteeu
06-02-2010, 01:59 PM
ok, can we just get out of the entire Middle East and let them do whatever it is what they want to do? if Turkey thinks they have the sack to fight Isreal, let's see it. but I don't want the US involved. ever. at all. anywhere.

As soon as we find an energy source for the world economy other than oil, yes. Until then, no.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:00 PM
the west bank of the river jordan...

probably b/c egypt would rather not have to deal with hamas as directly as israel is forced to...

67 - to destroy israel?

5 counties that attacked: syria, iraq, egypt, jordan, saudi arabia, algeria, sudan, tunisia, and morroco...

ok, i cheated on the last one, i could only remember syria, jordan, egypt, saudi arabia, iraq and some north african moslem countries...

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:00 PM
Allies. Look it up.

Israels enemy is the US enemy.

and that's gone so well so far. it's fine to have allies, especially in terms of economic alliances. but i have no desire to have my country involved militarily anywhere in the Middle East.

if Israel feels it necessary to do whatever they need to do, I support that. but i think they're at the point where they can be a self-sufficient military. and if not, then they need to get along better with their neighbors. yes, i realize that's a tough one.

but we don't need to be in over 170 countries around this world.

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 02:03 PM
and that's gone so well so far. it's fine to have allies, especially in terms of economic alliances. but i have no desire to have my country involved militarily anywhere in the Middle East.

if Israel feels it necessary to do whatever they need to do, I support that. but i think they're at the point where they can be a self-sufficient military. and if not, then they need to get along better with their neighbors. yes, i realize that's a tough one.

but we don't need to be in over 170 countries around this world.

Great. Allies with limits. As long as its good for you ok. But if it means actually being an ally, well then all bets are off. Jesus we are doomed.

They name streets after guys like you. "One Way"

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:03 PM
I don't understand why israeli soldiers rappelled from a helicopter in international waters?

They had to know some of those idiots were going to hit them with something.no, i agree with patteeu, i think they didn't have any idea that they would be attacked with deadly force...

a few stones, maybe a slingshot or two, but nothing like the attacks that materialized...

maybe they were lulled by the presence of many western activists onboard...

vailpass
06-02-2010, 02:05 PM
Meh. I blame people like Pittsie, Direckshun, Fritz, and Andrew Sullivan. Useful idiots (or more likely knowing shills) who have all the resources to actually understand the truth but who contort themselves to blame Israel nonetheless.

Without receptive westerners like these, there would be no reason for provocations and staged martyrdom operations like this one.

BTW, the cargo is irrelevant. Blockades are enforceable against all traffic, not just arms shipments or other types of contraband. In this case, Israel repeatedly notified the flotilla that all humanitarian cargo would be allowed into Gaza after it was properly inspected according to the procedures established for the blockade. Procedures with which the flotilla refused to comply.

Absolutely.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:07 PM
the west bank of the river jordan...

probably b/c egypt would rather not have to deal with hamas as directly as israel is forced to...

67 - to destroy israel?

5 counties that attacked: syria, iraq, egypt, jordan, saudi arabia, algeria, sudan, tunisia, and morroco...

ok, i cheated on the last one, i could only remember syria, jordan, egypt, saudi arabia, iraq and some north african moslem countries...

I think you missed Lebanon. Not sure if those North African countries were involved?

The big point though is Gaza belongs to Egypt, but they don't want it--- For good reasons.

It would be like if Michigan invaded Canada, and Canada whipped there ass in a war, then kept Detroit, Michigan would be like, "sure, go ahead you can have it" ROFL

As for the West bank, it refers to the West Bank of Jordan. Jordan murdered tens of thousands of Pali's and don't want to ever have to deal with them again, so after '67 they let Israel occupy it for the same reasons Egypt let them keep Gaza.

I think the only other territory that Israel "occupied", the Golan Heights, Syria disputed it and wants it back (many because there are no Pali's living there). Maybe Israel should move all the Pali's to the Golan Heights. I know Gaza is prime oceanfront real estate, just like Beirut once was until the muslims destroyed it (like they destroy everything).

Radar Chief
06-02-2010, 02:09 PM
Here's what armed "Peace Protesters" beat and stabbed IDF soldiers for:

Toys, some wheelchairs and a lot of used clothes.

FYP.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:10 PM
The Israelis consider some of the territory gained in their defensive wars essential to their security and they are unwilling to give those back. The offer made when Clinton was in office is, IMO, the high water mark of what the palestinians can hope for. Arafat responded with an intifada. The rest of the world does the palestinians no favors by pressuring Israel to continue to make concessions and offer olive branches. The pressure should be on the palestinians to accept the best offer they can get and lay down their rocks, suicide belts, and weapons for good. The Israelis have demonstrated a willingness to accept a 2 state solution but the palestinians have failed to demonstrate the same willingness by continuing to insist on concessions that they know the Israelis can never offer (eg right of return).at this point, israel is unwilling to give any land back whatsoever...

i can't remember what the offer was during the clinton negotiations, could you refresh my recollection?

and, yes, more pressure should be put on the palestinians, but i don't know what form that would take in terms of it actually being effective...

and yes, the palestinians demand hings that aren't going to happen (right of return), just as the israeli government demands things that will always stand in the way of a negotiated peace (jerusalem)...

both sides will eventually have to find a way to compromise on their postions if there will never be peace (which is entirely possible)...

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 02:11 PM
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HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 02:13 PM
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The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:13 PM
I blame (Ehud) Barak.

Here's what Israel killed nine civilians for:

Toys, some wheelchairs and a lot of used clothes.



Speaking of wheelchairs, google the name "Leon Klinghoffer".

Then get back to me.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:15 PM
at this point, israel is unwilling to give any land back whatsoever...

Seriously, why should they? Every peice of real estate they ceded over to the Pali's they destroyed it. Remember the Greenhouses in 2005?

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:18 PM
I think you missed Lebanon. Not sure if those North African countries were involved?

The big point though is Gaza belongs to Egypt, but they don't want it--- For good reasons.

It would be like if Michigan invaded Canada, and Canada whipped there ass in a war, then kept Detroit, Michigan would be like, "sure, go ahead you can have it" ROFL

As for the West bank, it refers to the West Bank of Jordan. Jordan murdered tens of thousands of Pali's and don't want to ever have to deal with them again, so after '67 they let Israel occupy it for the same reasons Egypt let them keep Gaza.

I think the only other territory that Israel "occupied", the Golan Heights, Syria disputed it and wants it back (many because there are no Pali's living there). Maybe Israel should move all the Pali's to the Golan Heights. I know Gaza is prime oceanfront real estate, just like Beirut once was until the muslims destroyed it (like they destroy everything).i'm not sure about lebanon...

wiki doesn't include them and i don't remember them being a part of the '67 war...

btw, i'm from michigan and i would give detroit to canada if they would take it...

and i don't think anybody let israel have anything, israel took it, plain and simple...

neither jordan nor egypt want the west bank or gaza back, they wan't them to be part of a palestinian state...

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:18 PM
Great. Allies with limits. As long as its good for you ok. But if it means actually being an ally, well then all bets are off. Jesus we are doomed.

They name streets after guys like you. "One Way"

cute.

i'd rather just not support any state. economically we can't afford to do so. last year we gave them what? $2.5B? i mean, seriously? and then we're giving $2.2B to Egypt, and another $400M to Jordan. oh, silly me, i forgot the $1B to the Palestinian Authority.

hey, so we're just droppin nearly $6B in the desert and it's all going so well. but what about our dependence on foreign oil? i'm sure we have to have a stable region so that we can keep on driving our cars and making our plastics. how bout we take that $6B and invest it in alternative energy solutions. crazy idea, i know. but i bet we could come up with something pretty nifty.

so let's stop propping up the world and prop up ourselves instead.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:21 PM
and yes, the palestinians demand hings that aren't going to happen (right of return), just as the israeli government demands things that will always stand in the way of a negotiated peace (jerusalem)...



Jews and Christians have a legitimate call in Jerusalem, and they can share this holy land in peace.

Muslims only claim to the land is Mohamed had a dream one night that he flew there. I mean, come on. :Scanlon:

But even if Joseph Smith said it's the Mormon's holy land, and we all knew it was BS, I'm sure it wouldn't be something that the Mormons wanted just to be a prick which is all the muslims are doing. And thats all that they do--- antagonize, provoke, use violence and belligerence, to get what they want. They have no respect for others. NOne.

Yet time and time again non-muslims have acted in good faith, in many instances bending over backwards to appease them, and they continue to blow shit up like busses, planes, buildings. I say **** 'em.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:22 PM
i'm not sure about lebanon...

wiki doesn't include them and i don't remember them being a part of the '67 war...

btw, i'm from michigan and i would give detroit to canada if they would take it...

and i don't think anybody let israel have anything, israel took it, plain and simple...

neither jordan nor egypt want the west bank or gaza back, they wan't them to be part of a palestinian state...

You cheated. :D

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:22 PM
Seriously, why should they? Every peice of real estate they ceded over to the Pali's they destroyed it. Remember the Greenhouses in 2005?as i've said, i don't think israel should give back anything now...

but they should be willing to negotiate a return of most of the land as part of an acceptable overall settlement, imo...

as far as destroying real estate, i say once there is a palestinian state, let the palestinians do whatever they want with their own land...

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:23 PM
neither jordan nor egypt want the west bank or gaza back, they wan't them to be part of a palestinian state...

Because they want the Pali's to continue to be a thorn in Israel's side.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:24 PM
You cheated. :Donly on the north african countries...

the rest i knew...

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:24 PM
Jews and Christians have a legitimate call in Jerusalem, and they can share this holy land in peace.

Muslims only claim to the land is Mohamed had a dream one night that he flew there. I mean, come on. :Scanlon:

But even if Joseph Smith said it's the Mormon's holy land, and we all knew it was BS, I'm sure it wouldn't be something that the Mormons wanted just to be a prick which is all the muslims are doing. And thats all that they do--- antagonize, provoke, use violence and belligerence, to get what they want. They have no respect for others. NOne.

Yet time and time again non-muslims have acted in good faith, in many instances bending over backwards to appease them, and they continue to blow shit up like busses, planes, buildings. I say **** 'em.

wow. just imagine what this world would be like without religion...

at least then they'd be fighting over the land because they wanted it, not because of some divine right each one thinks they possess. hell, maybe then they could at least talk it out.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:25 PM
as i've said, i don't think israel should give back anything now...

but they should be willing to negotiate a return of most of the land as part of an acceptable overall settlement, imo...

as far as destroying real estate, i say once there is a palestinian state, let the palestinians do whatever they want with their own land...

We keep trying that but they refuse to build infrastructure. It's just one big ghetto that the uN ie the USA has to make welfare payments too. Nobody is going to legitimately invest money in these people. Every dime they get goes to Hamas for guns and bombs.

googlegoogle
06-02-2010, 02:26 PM
Jews and Christians have a legitimate call in Jerusalem, and they can share this holy land in peace.

Muslims only claim to the land is Mohamed had a dream one night that he flew there. I mean, come on. :Scanlon:

But even if Joseph Smith said it's the Mormon's holy land, and we all knew it was BS, I'm sure it wouldn't be something that the Mormons wanted just to be a prick which is all the muslims are doing. And thats all that they do--- antagonize, provoke, use violence and belligerence, to get what they want. They have no respect for others. NOne.

Yet time and time again non-muslims have acted in good faith, in many instances bending over backwards to appease them, and they continue to blow shit up like busses, planes, buildings. I say **** 'em.

Interference in other lands makes you sound imperialist and like an early colonizer.

Big empire building if you ask me.

We should have a hands off approach. Obviously that's impossible with fundamentalists Christians in our country.

Enjoy never ending war.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:26 PM
wow. just imagine what this world would be like without religion...

at least then they'd be fighting over the land because they wanted it, not because of some divine right each one thinks they possess. hell, maybe then they could at least talk it out.

Are you doubting the historical legitimacy of world Jewry?

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:28 PM
Interference in other lands makes you sound imperialist and like an early colonizer.

Big empire building if you ask me.

We should have a hands off approach. Obviously that's impossible with fundamentalists Christians in our country.

Enjoy never ending war.

I've already been down this road with Taco John and he backed me into a corner, so I'll ask you the same question that he asked me:

If two nations or two tribes or whatever have a grievance that cannot be resolved peacably without a mediator, what is your solution then>

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:28 PM
Are you doubting the historical legitimacy of world Jewry?

something like that.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:30 PM
something like that.

I see.

And Hindus are from....

Antarctica?

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:31 PM
I've already been down this road with Taco John and he backed me into a corner, so I'll ask you the same question that he asked me:

If two nations or two tribes or whatever have a grievance that cannot be resolved peacably without a mediator, what is your solution then>

i'm sure TJ is smarter than I, and i'd love a link to his response. however, i see no reason that the two countries cannot fight it out. the winner gets to rape and pillage the other.

it's the way it's always been, and i see no reason why that can't continue. there are never equal states. one is always more powerful.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:31 PM
Because they want the Pali's to continue to be a thorn in Israel's side.i don't think egypt wants anybody to be a thorn in israel's side...

egypt's interests are in maintaining the peace that it has with israel...

btw, i'm not sure, but wasn't gaza a part of palestine in the first place? iirc, egypt controlled the area for a long time between wars (counting the 1948 war), but it was never a part of egypt...

that may also be a reason egypt doesn't want gaza "back"...

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 02:31 PM
I've already been down this road with Taco John and he backed me into a corner, so I'll ask you the same question that he asked me:

If two nations or two tribes or whatever have a grievance that cannot be resolved peacably without a mediator, what is your solution then>

scissors?

short straw?

Indian Leg wrestle?

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:32 PM
only on the north african countries...

the rest i knew...

And I learned something new today. :thumb:

I had no idea North African countries (other than Egypt) were involved.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:33 PM
i'm sure TJ is smarter than I, and i'd love a link to his response. however, i see no reason that the two countries cannot fight it out. the winner gets to rape and pillage the other.



Might makes right?

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:33 PM
I see.

And Hindus are from....

Antarctica?

sorry, i'm a bit slow. spell out what you're driving at. i don't give a shyte where Hindus are from. Where Jews are from. Or where Christians are from. Or where Muslims are from.

that one believes in a fictional supreme power does not give them any land rights whatsoever. oh hell, even if there is a God, it doesn't give them any land rights.

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:35 PM
Might makes right?

the winner gets to write the history, so it seem so.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:35 PM
We keep trying that but they refuse to build infrastructure. It's just one big ghetto that the uN ie the USA has to make welfare payments too. Nobody is going to legitimately invest money in these people. Every dime they get goes to Hamas for guns and bombs.isn't in the interests of hamas to keep the living conditions as shitty as possible in the camps in order to keep the anti-israel fires stoked?

i try not to confuse governments (yes, hamas is an elected government) with people...

i think the vast majority of israelis and arabs want peace, it's their rulers that prevent it (moreso on the part of the palestinians i think)...

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:35 PM
sorry, i'm a bit slow. spell out what you're driving at. i don't give a shyte where Hindus are from. Where Jews are from. Or where Christians are from. Or where Muslims are from.



And I can give a flying fuck where atheists are from. So there.

HonestChieffan
06-02-2010, 02:37 PM
And I can give a flying **** where atheists are from. So there.

We know where they are going.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:38 PM
isn't in the interests of hamas to keep the living conditions as shitty as possible in the camps in order to keep the anti-israel fires stoked?
i try not to confuse governments (yes, hamas is an elected government) with people...

i think the vast majority of israelis and arabs want peace, it's their rulers that prevent it (moreso on the part of the palestinians i think)...

No doubt. Hamas has declared war on Israel--- they demand that it be wiped out, that the Jews be driven into the sea.

I'm really not sure how you go about negotiating with something like that.

But it is what it is, the Palestinians voted for Hamas, so I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. I mean, the other choices were were shit, too, but...

Hey no ones crying me a river when I had McCain and B.O. to choose from.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:38 PM
If two nations or two tribes or whatever have a grievance that cannot be resolved peacably without a mediator, what is your solution then>assuming that the dispute cannot be resolved peacefully without a mediator, then a mediator is required...

but i'm not sure a mediator will do any good in the israeli palestinian conflict, it hasn't so far (outside of the egypt deal)...

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:38 PM
And I can give a flying **** where atheists are from. So there.

ROFL

But you don't see any atheist land grabs in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster do you?

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:40 PM
We know where they are going.mexico?

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:41 PM
assuming that the dispute cannot be resolved peacefully without a mediator, then a mediator is required...

but i'm not sure a mediator will do any good in the israeli palestinian conflict, it hasn't so far (outside of the egypt deal)...

Exactly, but what else can you do? I hate the UN and I think they are worthless and corrupt but what other medium do we have?

The UN is clearly anti-Israel.

Look, Bush said give them "democracy" well... we did.

And they voted for Hamas.

What can you do?

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:42 PM
No doubt. Hamas has declared war on Israel--- they demand that it be wiped out, that the Jews be driven into the sea.

I'm really not sure how you go about negotiating with something like that.

But it is what it is, the Palestinians voted for Hamas, so I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. I mean, the other choices were were shit, too, but...

Hey no ones crying me a river when I had McCain and B.O. to choose from.from reading various arab newspapers online, my impression is that the political wing of hamas actually would like to negotiate...

it's the hardliners who make it impossible...

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:43 PM
ROFL

But you don't see any atheist land grabs in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster do you?

Stalin ring a bell?

Ok well, this is obviously a mult so I'll just put you on ignore, ace. :thumb:

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:45 PM
Ok well, this is obviously a mult so I'll just put you on ignore, ace. :thumb:

since i'm on ignore now, can someone else explain to me what a "mult" is? thanks.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:46 PM
from reading various arab newspapers online, my impression is that the political wing of hamas actually would like to negotiate...

it's the hardliners who make it impossible...

So there are "good" Hamas and "bad" Hamas? C'mon now, I'm not buying that, are you?

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:46 PM
Exactly, but what else can you do? I hate the UN and I think they are worthless and corrupt but what other medium do we have?

The UN is clearly anti-Israel.

Look, Bush said give them "democracy" well... we did.

And they voted for Hamas.

What can you do?accept the fact that hamas is the government of gaza and try to move forward with negotiations...

no matter how many times negotiations have failed in the past, and will likely fail again in the future, israel cannot win the peace militarily (they've been trying since 1948)...

negotiation is the only hope for lasting peace, no matter how difficult it may be or how long it takes, israel must pursue negotiation...

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 02:49 PM
accept the fact that hamas is the government of gaza and try to move forward with negotiations...

no matter how many times negotiations have failed in the past, and will likely fail again in the future, israel cannot win the peace militarily (they've been trying since 1948)...

negotiation is the only hope for lasting peace, no matter how difficult it may be or how long it takes, israel must pursue negotiation...

And sadly, the Muslims will continue to feed their childrens bodies to the war machine.

I think Israel can win it militarily and unfortunately for Iran we are all going to find out very shortly. Because there is no way in Hell Israel is going to let Iran build a nuke. It's not gonna happen.

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:50 PM
since i'm on ignore now, can someone else explain to me what a "mult" is? thanks.multiple accounts, where a regular pretends to be somebody else...

like kotter...

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:52 PM
So there are "good" Hamas and "bad" Hamas? C'mon now, I'm not buying that, are you?yes, i think there is a very bad hamas and a not as bad hamas that is a political animal and not necessarily a terrorist animal (that's the military wing of hamas)...

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:53 PM
And sadly, the Muslims will continue to feed their childrens bodies to the war machine.



not a bad thing.

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 02:54 PM
multiple accounts, where a regular pretends to be somebody else...

like kotter...

oh ok. so the mad shitter thinks this is the account of someone else because i used the term the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

sure, that makes sense. ROFL :shake:

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:54 PM
And sadly, the Muslims will continue to feed their childrens bodies to the war machine.

I think Israel can win it militarily and unfortunately for Iran we are all going to find out very shortly. Because there is no way in Hell Israel is going to let Iran build a nuke. It's not gonna happen.some muslims will continue to feed their children to the terrorist machine, to be sure... and that might not ever end, but i believe that the majority on both sides truly want peace...

and i disagree that israel can win militarily...

as i've said, they've been trying that since 1948 (some 62 years now, yes, over 60 freaking years and no victory yet)...

go bowe
06-02-2010, 02:57 PM
oh ok. so the mad shitter thinks this is the account of someone else because i used the term the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

sure, that makes sense. ROFL :shake:i'll let the mad shitter speak for himself, but suspecting a mult often has more to do with the mult taking a decidedly unpopular position to stir the pot so to speak...

flying spaghetti monster is a favorite term of dave lane, but dave doesn't need to hide behind a mult b/c he is fearless in his opinions...

ClevelandBronco
06-02-2010, 03:04 PM
ROFL

But you don't see any atheist land grabs in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster do you?

Except for regurgitating bullshit from the John Lennon school of foreign policy, you must have missed something called the 20th fucking century.

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Except for regurgitating bullshit from the John Lennon school of foreign policy, you must have missed something called the 20th ****ing century.

who whom do you refer? because if you're talking about Stalin or Hitler, i fail to recall either of them fighting in the name of atheism.

ClevelandBronco
06-02-2010, 03:16 PM
who whom do you refer? because if you're talking about Stalin or Hitler, i fail to recall either of them fighting in the name of atheism.

You can't recall something you never bothered to learn in the first place, dumbshit.

Dave Lane
06-02-2010, 03:43 PM
Let's see as I recall the IRA was a sworn enemy of the British and wanted to drive them into the sea. Bombings, killing innocent people on trains, satchel charges on buses.

So how did that turn out anyway? I know the British would never negotiate with terrorists so they must have wiped them out. Yep thats the ticket.

The Mad Crapper
06-02-2010, 04:15 PM
i'll let the mad shitter speak for himself, but suspecting a mult often has more to do with the mult taking a decidedly unpopular position to stir the pot so to speak...

flying spaghetti monster is a favorite term of dave lane, but dave doesn't need to hide behind a mult b/c he is fearless in his opinions...

Dave Loon is just as silly as this guy, but I don't think it's him. It's a moonbat, playing games pretending to be somebody it's not.:rolleyes:

Cave Johnson
06-02-2010, 04:20 PM
Speaking of wheelchairs, google the name "Leon Klinghoffer".

Then get back to me.

I don't need to google that one, Crappy.

healthpellets
06-02-2010, 04:46 PM
You can't recall something you never bothered to learn in the first place, dumbshit.

well don't keep all the knowledge for yourself. share with the group.

KC native
06-02-2010, 05:01 PM
Let's see as I recall the IRA was a sworn enemy of the British and wanted to drive them into the sea. Bombings, killing innocent people on trains, satchel charges on buses.

So how did that turn out anyway? I know the British would never negotiate with terrorists so they must have wiped them out. Yep thats the ticket.

QFT

KC native
06-02-2010, 05:03 PM
Oh and since someone invoked his noodly supremeness, I feel it's appropriate to post a visual homage (since we're pirates, not muslims) to his goodness.

http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Milek2_1200.jpg

AustinChief
06-02-2010, 06:06 PM
Let's see as I recall the IRA was a sworn enemy of the British and wanted to drive them into the sea. Bombings, killing innocent people on trains, satchel charges on buses.

So how did that turn out anyway? I know the British would never negotiate with terrorists so they must have wiped them out. Yep thats the ticket.

Ummm, the IRA stopped being relevant when the economy of N.I. went to shit and the Republic's took off.. oh and the peace treaty's were signed... ... they then split off into the RIRA who are a bunch of drug dealing thugs that the political wing (sinn fein) of the actual IRA (which decommissioned itself) has continued to distance itself from... Oh and it didn't hurt that the conflict lasted long enough for the Catholics to outbreed everyone in the north and will have reached close to 50/50 parity when the 2011 census is done.

I fail to see your point... the IRA stopped being relevant and is now for all practical purposes gone.

googlegoogle
06-02-2010, 06:07 PM
I've already been down this road with Taco John and he backed me into a corner, so I'll ask you the same question that he asked me:

If two nations or two tribes or whatever have a grievance that cannot be resolved peacably without a mediator, what is your solution then>

Not to interfere.

US AID dollars in billions = emboldens.

patteeu
06-03-2010, 12:26 AM
at this point, israel is unwilling to give any land back whatsoever...

i can't remember what the offer was during the clinton negotiations, could you refresh my recollection?

and, yes, more pressure should be put on the palestinians, but i don't know what form that would take in terms of it actually being effective...

and yes, the palestinians demand hings that aren't going to happen (right of return), just as the israeli government demands things that will always stand in the way of a negotiated peace (jerusalem)...

both sides will eventually have to find a way to compromise on their postions if there will never be peace (which is entirely possible)...

At the 2000 Camp David Summit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit)...

[Ehud] Barak offered to form a Palestinian State initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10 to 25 years the West Bank area would expand to 90-91% (94% excluding greater Jerusalem).[1][2][3] As a result, "Israel would have withdrawn from 63 settlements."[4] The West Bank would be separated by a road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, with free passage for Palestinians although Israel reserved the right to close the road for passage in case of emergency. The Palestinian position was that the annexations would block existing road networks between major Palestinian populations. In return, the Israelis would cede 1% of their territory in the Negev Desert to Palestine. The Palestinians rejected this proposal.

Cave Johnson
06-03-2010, 03:31 PM
And they killed a US citizen. Fantastic.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/they-killed-a-us-citizen.html

HonestChieffan
06-03-2010, 03:41 PM
And they killed a US citizen. Fantastic.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/they-killed-a-us-citizen.html

Adios Furkan

ClevelandBronco
06-03-2010, 03:44 PM
And they killed a US citizen. Fantastic.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/they-killed-a-us-citizen.html

"Reports in the Turkish press identified the American as Furkan Dogan, 19, who was born in the United States before returning to Turkey with his family as a young child. The Cihan news agency reported that Mr. Dogan had one bullet in the chest and four bullets fired into his head from close range."

The one in the chest sounds as though it was a mistake.

AustinChief
06-03-2010, 04:12 PM
"Reports in the Turkish press identified the American as Furkan Dogan, 19, who was born in the United States before returning to Turkey with his family as a young child. The Cihan news agency reported that Mr. Dogan had one bullet in the chest and four bullets fired into his head from close range."

The one in the chest sounds as though it was a mistake.

I say we arm the beejeezus out of Armenia and let them get some payback... see how the scumbag Turks like it for it a change. Oh and maybe throw some more weapons the Kurds way...

vailpass
06-03-2010, 04:32 PM
I say we arm the beejeezus out of Armenia and let them get some payback... see how the scumbag Turks like it for it a change. Oh and maybe throw some more weapons the Kurds way...

2nd especially if they film the whole thing then make it into a video game

AustinChief
06-03-2010, 04:51 PM
2nd especially if they film the whole thing then make it into a video game

It would solve a number of issues and get the focus of Israel... I am liking the idea more and more...

F Turkey.. they have far too powerful of a military for a country that is slipping more and more toward radical Islam. They have plenty of neighbors that we could arm and let them take the Turks down a few pegs... Greece, Armenia and the Kurds in Iraq

ClevelandBronco
06-03-2010, 05:10 PM
It would solve a number of issues and get the focus of Israel... I am liking the idea more and more...

F Turkey.. they have far too powerful of a military for a country that is slipping more and more toward radical Islam. They have plenty of neighbors that we could arm and let them take the Turks down a few pegs... Greece, Armenia and the Kurds in Iraq

I wouldn't wager against the Turks in that contest.

AustinChief
06-03-2010, 05:31 PM
I wouldn't wager against the Turks in that contest.

Couple hundred tomahawks, 10-20 F-35s and 50 Abrams... I'd say they could hold their own...

Maybe give Greece a few ships to make their Navy less of a joke...

I'd definitely bet against the Turks at that point... BUT regardless, it would keep them occupied and their grubby hands out of the Israel mess.

AustinChief
06-03-2010, 05:50 PM
Ummm, the IRA stopped being relevant when the economy of N.I. went to shit and the Republic's took off.. oh and the peace treaty's were signed... ... they then split off into the RIRA who are a bunch of drug dealing thugs that the political wing (sinn fein) of the actual IRA (which decommissioned itself) has continued to distance itself from... Oh and it didn't hurt that the conflict lasted long enough for the Catholics to outbreed everyone in the north and will have reached close to 50/50 parity when the 2011 census is done.

I fail to see your point... the IRA stopped being relevant and is now for all practical purposes gone.

Still wondering if I was misunderstanding the point of the IRA reference....

patteeu
06-04-2010, 07:49 AM
And they killed a US citizen. Fantastic.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/they-killed-a-us-citizen.html

What difference does the citizenship of the riff raff make?

ForeverChiefs58
06-04-2010, 08:01 AM
And they killed a US citizen. Fantastic.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/they-killed-a-us-citizen.html

hardly, he was born in usa, then moved back to turkey when he was two. His parents are so happy now anyway cause their son did want they all want, to go to marty'sdorm of course.
It doesn't matter where he was from because he had the same hate for isreal as everyone else on that nazi love boat.
They should have sank those boats and been done with it. One less boat load of haters hell bent on isreals destruction.

Radar Chief
06-04-2010, 08:08 AM
hardly, he was born in usa, then moved back to turkey when he was two. His parents are so happy now anyway cause their son did want they all want, to go to marty'sdorm of course.
It doesn't matter where he was from because he had the same hate for isreal as everyone else on that nazi love boat.
They should have sank those boats and been done with it. One less boat load of haters hell bent on isreals destruction.

:LOL: @ Marty’s-dorm.
You can bet IDF soldiers won’t be repelling onto the next ship packing paintball guns.

BucEyedPea
06-04-2010, 08:17 AM
BUT regardless, it would keep them occupied and their grubby hands out of the Israel mess.

That way only we could have our hands on it.

I don't like how this issue is starting protests in America including that brush between Palestinians and a Jewish high school kid. I don't want this brought into America and it's deepening. Including 9/11 happening. Not okay.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:06 AM
It's not at all analogous to the North Korean submarine attack. The North Koreans gave no warning. The South Korean ship had no option to withdraw and avoid the consequences. The North Korean attack was intended to be lethal. By contrast, the Israelis warned the aid ships to turn back and when they boarded, they were armed with only sidearms and paint guns. The Israelis bent over backward to take a beating before resorting to violence themselves.

Yeah, you're going to get the piss beat out of you if you copter troops with guns onto ships you have zero authority over in international waters. You don't get to order anybody around there, and you don't get to hop on whatever boats you want with impunity until they're in your waters.

Period.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:08 AM
Situations like this are never black/white. Israel has been put in such a bad situation they are obviously going to make mistakes.

If I were in their situation, I would rather make a mistake and kill 11 people then allow something through that will have the capability to kill thousands.

That's a fair take, but there are options between allowing deadly weapons inland and killing civilians by the dozen.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:10 AM
Especially since their mistake wasn't in choosing to kill a small number of people to potentially save a lot, but instead simply that they underestimated the belligerence of these activists. Had they been prepared for the violence, I suspect they could have boarded the ship with fewer casualties.

I bet they would have achieved close to zero of their nonlethal casualties if they adopted reasonable, anti-tyrannical measures to allow humanitarian aid into a two-million person shantytown.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:12 AM
What a sad sad time in our history. Our media brainwashed masses being led to the downfall of our greatness like lambs being led to slaughter. It is amazing to me how many liberals on this board are so quick to jump to the aid of our enemies and the enemies of our allies. Oh those poor little Palestineans. All they want to do is blindly launch rockets into civilian areas. All they need is a big hug and they'll be nicer. Quick, everybody join hands and sing Kumbaya. That'll bring about peace.

Thank God this emasculated brainwashed generation of "men" wasn't around when Hitler was.

Deep end.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:13 AM
If we ever had a relationship with Israel Obama is rapidly leaving it in the dust. His first move, had he been a true ally, would have been to discuss the effort with the Israelis. But they cannot trust him so he was flat footed and uninformed. He should have come directly to their side on the issue not throw them under the buss as he defended the terrorist Hammas.

None of what you described actually happened.

That's fictitious bullshit.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:14 AM
North Korea sinks a S Korean ship. UN does nothing like the worthless bunch we expect. Israel defends itself and UN has a meeting with no information and condemns Israel. Obama cheers.

Oy.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:15 AM
One can't help but think that our relationship with Israel is a large reason we have a lot of our problems with terrorists.

Terrorists have only been telling us that for a while now...

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:16 AM
LOL! and one that they cant control. and the Palestinian people love and claim to be freedom fighters ;)

Oh please..terrorist propaganda has made Hamas famous. Your good friends, the mullahs from Iran have been funding their armed wing for 2 decades. and Iran is a terrorist nation that the brits had political ties too before.

were you even born yet during the Iranian hostage ordeal?

You know next to nothing about Palestine. Or about anything, I suspect.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:18 AM
International leftists (including American dopes and dupes such as Direcktile Dysfuncshun) and their allied Islamists will use this to whatever advantage they can. The truth of the incident from any other viewpoint will not matter.

It was a staged incident.

Define "staged."

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:18 AM
Congratulations on having the most consecutive posts in one thread I've ever seen. You are one spun-up psycho midget, you might want to lighten up just a little bit and quit licking the boots of those who would like nothing more than to stomp you to death.

k

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:20 AM
Ater the "aid" workers brutal attack on the IDF boarders, the IDF disarmed the ship and went ahead and got the aid packages and supplies delivered. And not one lefty media source will report it ever happened.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EVrhQTiAJxM&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&hl=en_GB&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EVrhQTiAJxM&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&hl=en_GB&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

I almost think that could have happened without killing a dozen people.

Don't you?

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:22 AM
i don't know about fritz, but one thing that might help a lot would be to immediately freeze construction of settlements and make a commitment to remove all settlements as part of an overall comprehensive peace package...

land, particularly in the occupied territories, is one of the root causes of this continuing conflict...

certainly not the only cause, and not the most important, but a very significant contributing factor nonetheless...

imo, such a commitment could lead to a return to the peace process with a chance of actually making progress toward a comprehensive settlement...

Good post.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:23 AM
And all the humanitarian cargo sits in trucks waiting to be delivered...but with the arms taken away and the terrorists sent away, Hamas doesn't seem to want the cargo at all....a scam, a set up, and a way to create an issue. Right from Obamas rulebook.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137850

1. Obama has nothing to do with this.

2. All you're doing is citing Israeli media. That's all you're doing.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 03:27 AM
Meh. I blame people like Pittsie, Direckshun, Fritz, and Andrew Sullivan. Useful idiots (or more likely knowing shills) who have all the resources to actually understand the truth but who contort themselves to blame Israel nonetheless.

I cede my reply to Glenn Greenwald:

One of the tired, clichéd epithets being spat by right-wing war cheerleaders at critics of the Israeli attack (such as myself) is "Useful Idiots." Yet just as nothing helped Al Qaeda (and Iran) more than the invasion of Iraq, the U.S. torture regime, Guantanamo and the like, nothing helps Hamas more than these types of naked acts of Israeli aggression which repulse the world. As Gazan-born journalist Taghreed El-Khodary explained yesterday in Salon:

Israel has given Hamas a present. Hamas' morale is high; it's a boost for them. They feel stronger and that's what they needed at this time when they had been weakened somewhat.

So who are the actual Useful Idiots?

blaise
06-09-2010, 04:51 AM
Saying Hamas just has a rogue portion that engages in terrorist activity is like saying the mafia is a legit organization that just has a rogue portion engaging in extortion and murder.

InChiefsHell
06-09-2010, 05:22 AM
Define "staged."

They basically ran the blockade on purpose, knowing Israel would react, they then provoked them by beating the shit out of the soldiers, causing the soldiers to react with lethal force, (they were quite happy to martyr themselves for the cause). Then they have people like you read the incident exactly as they would have it read, Israel is the bad guy. It matters not that Israel delivered the aid in question, it matters not that Israel warned them not to cross the blockade, it matters not that Israel went in with non lethal force initially. All that matters is that the old "Israel is picking on the poor Palestinians" line is kept and repeated by you and others like you in the west, the sheeple, the pawns of Hamas.

That would be my definition.

BigChiefFan
06-09-2010, 05:37 AM
They basically ran the blockade on purpose, knowing Israel would react, they then provoked them by beating the shit out of the soldiers, causing the soldiers to react with lethal force, (they were quite happy to martyr themselves for the cause). Then they have people like you read the incident exactly as they would have it read, Israel is the bad guy. It matters not that Israel delivered the aid in question, it matters not that Israel warned them not to cross the blockade, it matters not that Israel went in with non lethal force initially. All that matters is that the old "Israel is picking on the poor Palestinians" line is kept and repeated by you and others like you in the west, the sheeple, the pawns of Hamas.

That would be my definition.

I think that's a fair take and probably accurate to what transpired. Israel has no problem with Palestinians. They have problems with an extremist group in Hamas. Hamas provokes and Israel responds in kind. Country's SHOULD DEFEND THEMSELVES. It's an unfortunate incident, but you hit the nail on the head.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 07:43 AM
Saying Hamas just has a rogue portion that engages in terrorist activity is like saying the mafia is a legit organization that just has a rogue portion engaging in extortion and murder.

Because?

patteeu
06-09-2010, 07:47 AM
Yeah, you're going to get the piss beat out of you if you copter troops with guns onto ships you have zero authority over in international waters. You don't get to order anybody around there, and you don't get to hop on whatever boats you want with impunity until they're in your waters.

Period.

That's not true, but even if it was, that kind of provocation is a clear justification for the Israeli's decision to resort to lethal force.

You realize that several other boats in that flotilla were boarded in international waters without incident, don't you?

patteeu
06-09-2010, 07:48 AM
I bet they would have achieved close to zero of their nonlethal casualties if they adopted reasonable, anti-tyrannical measures to allow humanitarian aid into a two-million person shantytown.

A perfectly reasonable accomodation for allowing the humanitarian cargo into Gaza was in place and it was communicated to the flotilla on several occasions. I take it you haven't really followed this story very closely.

stevieray
06-09-2010, 07:49 AM
Period.

ya, yours seems perpetual.

blaise
06-09-2010, 07:50 AM
Because?

Because I believe they're part and parcel. I'm sure there's legitimate portions of the organization, but I believe the insidious aspects are interwoven into the whole. They may say there's "rogue" portions, but I believe they're implicitly accepted.

patteeu
06-09-2010, 07:51 AM
I almost think that could have happened without killing a dozen people.

Don't you?

It's clear that you're wrong about this entire situation. That's not what the people on that boat wanted. They wanted confrontation. That's what Cleveland meant by "staged", btw.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 07:52 AM
They basically ran the blockade on purpose, knowing Israel would react, they then provoked them by beating the shit out of the soldiers, causing the soldiers to react with lethal force, (they were quite happy to martyr themselves for the cause). Then they have people like you read the incident exactly as they would have it read, Israel is the bad guy. It matters not that Israel delivered the aid in question, it matters not that Israel warned them not to cross the blockade, it matters not that Israel went in with non lethal force initially. All that matters is that the old "Israel is picking on the poor Palestinians" line is kept and repeated by you and others like you in the west, the sheeple, the pawns of Hamas.

That would be my definition.

I appreciate the clarification.

There's basically no independent record on who started being aggressive first, and to what degree. There was an Al Jazeera reporter on board the ship who claims the Israeli soldiers opened fire on the flotilla before they even landed on the ship. Of course the IDF is going to say differently, but you can't trust what they say "just because" anymore than you can the Pentagon or any country's military. All we have as observers is highly edited tape by the IDF.

And I guarantee you that all you have to go on is what Israel's defense told you -- so you're essentially buying without question what Israel's equivolent of the Pentagon is saying. You're welcome to that, but how's that worked out for you with the Pentagon?

I have no question that the activists were trying to provoke a response. And what they got was clearly an unjust response. It's one thing to stop the ship once it's in your country's waters, inspect it heavily, and allow the materials you approve into the country. It's another to send heavily armed soldiers from the planet's 6th most powerful military repelling onto a ship you have no authority over in international waters.

If I am irritating you by throwing "yo momma" jokes your way, trying to provoke you to hit me, or make you look like an ass, and you shoot me in the face, I doubt anybody's going to rush to your defense by saying "this was staged! Direckshun was trying to elicit a reaction!"

But the American political establishment bends over backwards doing this for Israel. Time after time after time. And I don't know what we get out of it that's positive. Maybe you can explain that to me.

mlyonsd
06-09-2010, 07:53 AM
It's clear that you're wrong about this entire situation. That's not what the people on that boat wanted. They wanted confrontation. That's what Cleveland meant by "staged", btw.

They sure got some pretty awesome coverage by Reuters.

patteeu
06-09-2010, 07:53 AM
I cede my reply to Glenn Greenwald:

And Greenwald is as wrong as you are. Nothing helped al Qaeda more than those in America condemning and acting to thwart America's actions in the GWoT. Not so coincidentally, it's pretty much the same cast of characters.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 07:55 AM
That's not true, but even if it was, that kind of provocation is a clear justification for the Israeli's decision to resort to lethal force.

You realize that several other boats in that flotilla were boarded in international waters without incident, don't you?

I don't care. It's essentially hijacking to send soldiers onto a ship to redirect it in international waters. Hell we call it piracy when poor black people do it off Africa. Because it is.

If the soldiers were able to do it on a hundred ships before one turned violent, that does not excuse this stupid exercise, which is just asking for a reaction. You don't board ships in international waters that you don't have authority over and expect impunity.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 07:57 AM
A perfectly reasonable accomodation for allowing the humanitarian cargo into Gaza was in place and it was communicated to the flotilla on several occasions.

The whole point of the flotilla was to prove that the blockade is bullshit that hurts Israelis more than it helps their cause.

This entire incident, which has kept Israel safe once again from food and medicine!, while managing to piss off the entire planet, proves their point.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 07:58 AM
Because I believe they're part and parcel. I'm sure there's legitimate portions of the organization, but I believe the insidious aspects are interwoven into the whole. They may say there's "rogue" portions, but I believe they're implicitly accepted.

I think that's fair.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 08:00 AM
It's clear that you're wrong about this entire situation. That's not what the people on that boat wanted. They wanted confrontation. That's what Cleveland meant by "staged", btw.

Hey, I agree. The whole point of the flotilla was a political test to show to the entire planet of how "civilized" this Gaza blockage is. And by almost every country's standards, Israel failed it.

Except in America's political system, where we always let them pass, no matter what. Because our political system, Democrats and especially Republicans, are owned by AIPAC.

blaise
06-09-2010, 08:01 AM
The whole point of the flotilla was to prove that the blockade is bullshit that hurts Israelis more than it helps their cause.

This entire incident, which has kept Israel safe once again from food and medicine!, while managing to piss off the entire planet, proves their point.

So there were options for the flotilla to get the supplies into Gaza if they agreed to accomodations the Israeli's provided, but they chose not to in order to make a point?

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 08:07 AM
And Greenwald is as wrong as you are. Nothing helped al Qaeda more than those in America condemning and acting to thwart America's actions in the GWoT. Not so coincidentally, it's pretty much the same cast of characters.

I could name a few things that helped al Qaeda more: Declaring a "war" on a pack of deranged criminals who believe they are in an operic global struggle on Allah's behalf. Invading the one country they had a limited presense in the Middle East and allowing them to flood it in a bloody insurgency that costs us billions to this day. Keeping troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. Our reliable stream of billions in money and weapons to the Israelis. Trying to engage in nation-building within the world's greatest empire-killer. Missiles that we send in by the dozens into sovereign nations with which we are not at war, which always seem to be Muslim nations. Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo.
I think these things have done Al Qaeda more good than political dissent in America, which is what you're bitching about.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 08:08 AM
So there were options for the flotilla to get the supplies into Gaza if they agreed to accomodations the Israeli's provided, but they chose not to in order to make a point?

I would say that is the most likely scenario.

InChiefsHell
06-09-2010, 09:34 AM
I appreciate the clarification.

There's basically no independent record on who started being aggressive first, and to what degree. There was an Al Jazeera reporter on board the ship who claims the Israeli soldiers opened fire on the flotilla before they even landed on the ship. Of course the IDF is going to say differently, but you can't trust what they say "just because" anymore than you can the Pentagon or any country's military. All we have as observers is highly edited tape by the IDF.

And I guarantee you that all you have to go on is what Israel's defense told you -- so you're essentially buying without question what Israel's equivolent of the Pentagon is saying. You're welcome to that, but how's that worked out for you with the Pentagon?

I have no question that the activists were trying to provoke a response. And what they got was clearly an unjust response. It's one thing to stop the ship once it's in your country's waters, inspect it heavily, and allow the materials you approve into the country. It's another to send heavily armed soldiers from the planet's 6th most powerful military repelling onto a ship you have no authority over in international waters.

If I am irritating you by throwing "yo momma" jokes your way, trying to provoke you to hit me, or make you look like an ass, and you shoot me in the face, I doubt anybody's going to rush to your defense by saying "this was staged! Direckshun was trying to elicit a reaction!"

But the American political establishment bends over backwards doing this for Israel. Time after time after time. And I don't know what we get out of it that's positive. Maybe you can explain that to me.

Honestly, comparing "yo Momma" jokes to beating people with clubs and chains and chucking a guy over the side just shows how differently we look at these things. I'll never understand why you choose to believe a terrorist group who purposefully started a confrontation (all of them willing martyrs, by the way) in order to make Israel look bad. You swallow it hook line and sinker. I realize you believe that I'm being manipulated by Israel, but the facts don't bare that out, at least not in this instance. But, we ain't gonna see eye to eye. Your viewpoint truly truly makes my head hurt.

As to what we get out of it that is positive...well, Israel is an ally that didn't bomb us on September 11th and has shown restraint when asked in the past by us. That restraint has not been reciprocated by their enemies in that region. We show our loyalty and principals when we stand by Israel. I know you disagree with the need to do that, but you asked why I think it's positive. That's in a nutshell. The negative impact of abandoning Israel would far outweigh the positives. So, we stick with our allies, as they have stuck with us.

Bump
06-09-2010, 09:47 AM
I could name a few things that helped al Qaeda more: Declaring a "war" on a pack of deranged criminals who believe they are in an operic global struggle on Allah's behalf. Invading the one country they had a limited presence in the Middle East and allowing them to flood it in a bloody insurgency that costs us billions to this day. Keeping troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. Our reliable stream of billions in money and weapons to the Israelis. Trying to engage in nation-building within the world's greatest empire-killer. Missiles that we send in by the dozens into sovereign nations with which we are not at war, which always seem to be Muslim nations. Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo.
I think these things have done Al Qaeda more good than political dissent in America, which is what you're bitching about.


FYP

go bowe
06-09-2010, 12:07 PM
Because I believe they're part and parcel. I'm sure there's legitimate portions of the organization, but I believe the insidious aspects are interwoven into the whole. They may say there's "rogue" portions, but I believe they're implicitly accepted.i think rogue is not a particularly accurate term when discussing the military wing of hamas ...

the political wing may not be in complete control of the military wing, but it certainly has a great deal of influence over what it does...

despite the fact that the military wing is what defeated fatah and took control of gaza, and maintains control of the territory (and attacks israel with rockets) the political wing continues to set the overall policies...

go bowe
06-09-2010, 12:08 PM
ya, yours seems perpetual.ROFL ROFL ROFL

go bowe
06-09-2010, 12:11 PM
It's clear that you're wrong about this entire situation. That's not what the people on that boat wanted. They wanted confrontation. That's what Cleveland meant by "staged", btw.everything i've seen certainly indicates that...

a confrontation was planned for and apparently greatly anticipated, with at least one activist reporting that they were ready for martyrdom and describing the activists who were killed as martyrs...

this was meant to be a provocation and it was wildly successful...

go bowe
06-09-2010, 12:18 PM
So there were options for the flotilla to get the supplies into Gaza if they agreed to accomodations the Israeli's provided, but they chose not to in order to make a point?yes...

Brock
06-09-2010, 12:50 PM
yes...

Well, **** 'em then.

mlyonsd
06-09-2010, 01:03 PM
Well, **** 'em then.

No, Pay'em......

Obama calls for rethinking Gaza blockade, announces aid package

By the CNN Wire Staff<SCRIPT type=text/javascript>cnnAuthor = "By the CNN Wire Staff";</SCRIPT>
<SCRIPT type=text/javascript>if(location.hostname.indexOf( 'edition.' ) > -1) {document.write('June 9, 2010 -- Updated 1702 GMT (0102 HKT)');} else {document.write('June 9, 2010 1:02 p.m. EDT');}</SCRIPT>June 9, 2010 1:02 p.m. EDT

<!--endclickprintinclude--><!-- google_ad_section_end --><!--startclickprintexclude--><!--endclickprintexclude--><!-- google_ad_section_start --><!-- CONTENT --><!--startclickprintinclude--><SCRIPT language=JavaScript type=text/javascript>var clickExpire = "-1";</SCRIPT>Washington (CNN) --

The United States will contribute $400 million in development aid to the Palestinian territories and work with Israel to loosen its embargo on Gaza, President Barack Obama said Wednesday.

Obama's announcement came after White House talks with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. The money will be used to build housing, schools, water and health care systems in both the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank and Gaza, which is ruled by the Palestinian Islamic movement Hamas.

Obama called the situation in Gaza "unsustainable," and said the United States would work with its European allies, Egypt and Israel to find a "new conceptual framework" for the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

"We agree Israelis have right to prevent arms from coming into Gaza," Obama said. But he said "new mechanisms" were needed to allow more goods to reach the territory -- and he repeated that the long-term solution was a permanent deal creating "a Palestinian state side-by-side with an Israel that is secure."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/09/obama.mideast/index.html?hpt=Sbin

The way Obama knee-jerks he outta be careful. He's too young to get them replaced.

go bowe
06-09-2010, 01:09 PM
Well, **** 'em then.well, i agree with that...

any rational person would have accepted israel's offer to deliver the supplies...

of course, palestinian activists are generally not what we would call rational...

go bowe
06-09-2010, 01:15 PM
No, Pay'em......

Obama calls for rethinking Gaza blockade, announces aid package

By the CNN Wire Staff<script type="text/javascript">cnnAuthor = "By the CNN Wire Staff";</script>
<script type="text/javascript">if(location.hostname.indexOf( 'edition.' ) > -1) {document.write('June 9, 2010 -- Updated 1702 GMT (0102 HKT)');} else {document.write('June 9, 2010 1:02 p.m. EDT');}</script>June 9, 2010 1:02 p.m. EDTJune 9, 2010 1:02 p.m. EDT

<!--endclickprintinclude--><!-- google_ad_section_end --><!--startclickprintexclude--><!--endclickprintexclude--><!-- google_ad_section_start --><!-- CONTENT --><!--startclickprintinclude--><script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">var clickExpire = "-1";</script>Washington (CNN) --

The United States will contribute $400 million in development aid to the Palestinian territories and work with Israel to loosen its embargo on Gaza, President Barack Obama said Wednesday.

Obama's announcement came after White House talks with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. The money will be used to build housing, schools, water and health care systems in both the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank and Gaza, which is ruled by the Palestinian Islamic movement Hamas.

Obama called the situation in Gaza "unsustainable," and said the United States would work with its European allies, Egypt and Israel to find a "new conceptual framework" for the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

"We agree Israelis have right to prevent arms from coming into Gaza," Obama said. But he said "new mechanisms" were needed to allow more goods to reach the territory -- and he repeated that the long-term solution was a permanent deal creating "a Palestinian state side-by-side with an Israel that is secure."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/09/obama.mideast/index.html?hpt=Sbin

The way Obama knee-jerks he outta be careful. He's too young to get them replaced.don't the u.s. and its european allies already provide billions in aid to the west bank?

in general, expanding aid to gaza seems like the right thing to do, it's just terrible timing since it appears to link the increased aid to the success (from the palestinian point of view) of the flotilla confrontation...

as far as the knee jerking, you may have a point... :D :D :D

patteeu
06-09-2010, 01:33 PM
I don't care. It's essentially hijacking to send soldiers onto a ship to redirect it in international waters. Hell we call it piracy when poor black people do it off Africa. Because it is.

If the soldiers were able to do it on a hundred ships before one turned violent, that does not excuse this stupid exercise, which is just asking for a reaction. You don't board ships in international waters that you don't have authority over and expect impunity.

1. You didn't say that you take a 1% risk of something like this happening when you forcibly board a ship in international waters. You said "you're going to [get this kind of reaction]" as if it's a near certainty. The reason I pointed out that the Israelis had peacefully boarded several other ships in the flotilla was simply to expose you to the reality of how anomalous this reaction really was. Given your backtracking here, I'm going to count my effort in this narrow regard as a success.

2. You're absolutely wrong when you describe the Israeli act as a violation of international law or characterize it as some sort of equivalent to piracy. This was legitimate (and I use that term to emphasize the legality of the operation under accepted international law) action enforcing an internationally recognized blockade. The Israelis bent over backward to accommodate the transfer of humanitarian aid, but they can't and shouldn't tolerate a breech of their blockade.

patteeu
06-09-2010, 01:40 PM
The whole point of the flotilla was to prove that the blockade is bullshit that hurts Israelis more than it helps their cause.

This entire incident, which has kept Israel safe once again from food and medicine!, while managing to piss off the entire planet, proves their point.

:spock: That doesn't even make sense. The food and medicine (or whatever the humanitarian cargo was) made it through, btw.

The point that seems to be proven is that Israel faces a world full of enemies, including Europe and many, like you, here in the US. It further proves that facts and justice aren't very important to Israel's enemies.

patteeu
06-09-2010, 01:42 PM
I could name a few things that helped al Qaeda more: Declaring a "war" on a pack of deranged criminals who believe they are in an operic global struggle on Allah's behalf. Invading the one country they had a limited presense in the Middle East and allowing them to flood it in a bloody insurgency that costs us billions to this day. Keeping troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. Our reliable stream of billions in money and weapons to the Israelis. Trying to engage in nation-building within the world's greatest empire-killer. Missiles that we send in by the dozens into sovereign nations with which we are not at war, which always seem to be Muslim nations. Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo.
I think these things have done Al Qaeda more good than political dissent in America, which is what you're bitching about.

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

P.S. Watch out, Bump's going to get you.

patteeu
06-09-2010, 01:44 PM
FYP

LOL, I see he already has.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 08:31 PM
Honestly, comparing "yo Momma" jokes to beating people with clubs and chains and chucking a guy over the side just shows how differently we look at these things. I'll never understand why you choose to believe a terrorist group who purposefully started a confrontation (all of them willing martyrs, by the way) in order to make Israel look bad. You swallow it hook line and sinker. I realize you believe that I'm being manipulated by Israel, but the facts don't bare that out, at least not in this instance. But, we ain't gonna see eye to eye. Your viewpoint truly truly makes my head hurt.

As to what we get out of it that is positive...well, Israel is an ally that didn't bomb us on September 11th and has shown restraint when asked in the past by us. That restraint has not been reciprocated by their enemies in that region. We show our loyalty and principals when we stand by Israel. I know you disagree with the need to do that, but you asked why I think it's positive. That's in a nutshell. The negative impact of abandoning Israel would far outweigh the positives. So, we stick with our allies, as they have stuck with us.

"The facts don't bare that out."

According to who? Where are you getting your facts from? Israel. Period. The Israeli Pentagon is trustworthy, Al Jazeera is somehow not.

Again, I ask -- what does Israel do for us? "They don't attack us" is incredibly weak sauce.

What does Israel do for us? Why back them at every turn? Trust them at every press release?

We don't even do that with our government. But we sure do it with theirs.

Direckshun
06-09-2010, 08:39 PM
:spock: That doesn't even make sense. The food and medicine (or whatever the humanitarian cargo was) made it through, btw.

The point that seems to be proven is that Israel faces a world full of enemies, including Europe and many, like you, here in the US. It further proves that facts and justice aren't very important to Israel's enemies.

Whatever humanitarian aid Israel is providing to their own citizens in the Gaza strip, which is right now a gigantic shanty town, is nothing short of a joke. The people there are suffering, and the aid Israel is providing will ONLY go through them -- they do not allow the UN, NATO, or any independent observers to even be a part of the process.

Nobody but them is allowed to deliver food, medicine, water, anything, to their own minority. Read the Economist's piece on this. It's re-****ing-diculous. Not even the United States, which is actually occupying two foreign countries largely against their popular will, and is facing heated insurgencies in both, goes that far.

We have zero evidence other than IDF footage that the aid made it through. Show me one non-Jewish source that says it went through. You can't, because all outlets received that information from the IDF.

go bowe
06-09-2010, 08:48 PM
* * *

We have zero evidence other than IDF footage that the aid made it through. Show me one non-Jewish source that says it went through. You can't, because all outlets received that information from the IDF.iirc, it didn't go through b/c hamas refused delivery...

AustinChief
06-10-2010, 02:56 AM
Whatever humanitarian aid Israel is providing to their own citizens in the Gaza strip, which is right now a gigantic shanty town, is nothing short of a joke. The people there are suffering, and the aid Israel is providing will ONLY go through them -- they do not allow the UN, NATO, or any independent observers to even be a part of the process.

Nobody but them is allowed to deliver food, medicine, water, anything, to their own minority. Read the Economist's piece on this. It's re-****ing-diculous. Not even the United States, which is actually occupying two foreign countries largely against their popular will, and is facing heated insurgencies in both, goes that far.

We have zero evidence other than IDF footage that the aid made it through. Show me one non-Jewish source that says it went through. You can't, because all outlets received that information from the IDF.

They're a shanty because they choose to be... I know that sounds ridiculous.. but there is a reason the rest of the Arab world won't take direct responsibility for them.. yes they will bitch and moan and send token aid... but no one wants to deal with the Arab version of East St Louis. Gaza is an embarrasment to Palestinians and the entire Arab world.. they try to use it as an excuse to blame Israel.. but frankly... it is a fuck up REGARDLESS... even wealthy Isreali settlers could BARELY make a go of it.. and then when they left.. what happened? The infrastructure left behind was vandalized and canabalized. NO ONE TRULY CARES ABOUT GAZA... and that's sad. The Arab world want to use them and keep them in poverty to have an excuse to blame Israel and Israel has frankly given up... which is Israel's fault as well.


To completely blame Israel for Gaza is simplistic and naive... they are a semi-willing pawn in a game that shouldn't be played.

It's time Palestine steps up to the plate and asks the Arab world to stop USING them and start ACTUALLY helping out... and when that falls through they need to kick out Hamas and decide for themselves to make a legitimate change... if you honestly think Hamas REALLY is looking out for Palestine.. then you have no clue what their mandate and motivations are.

patteeu
06-10-2010, 06:15 AM
Whatever humanitarian aid Israel is providing to their own citizens in the Gaza strip, which is right now a gigantic shanty town, is nothing short of a joke. The people there are suffering, and the aid Israel is providing will ONLY go through them -- they do not allow the UN, NATO, or any independent observers to even be a part of the process.

Nobody but them is allowed to deliver food, medicine, water, anything, to their own minority. Read the Economist's piece on this. It's re-****ing-diculous. Not even the United States, which is actually occupying two foreign countries largely against their popular will, and is facing heated insurgencies in both, goes that far.

We have zero evidence other than IDF footage that the aid made it through. Show me one non-Jewish source that says it went through. You can't, because all outlets received that information from the IDF.

You have zero evidence, period, that it didn't make it through. Seriously, your takes are starting to have an "inside job" feel to them.

But once again, you prove that you don't have a handle on this story. Not only do we know that Israel tried to deliver the flotilla aid from statements made by Hamas, but Egypt is also controlling an aid corridor into Gaza.

From Businessweek:

Hamas Refuses Israel’s Delivery of Flotilla Supplies (Update1) (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-06-03/hamas-refuses-israel-s-delivery-of-flotilla-supplies-update1-.html)
June 03, 2010, 6:40 AM EDT

By Jonathan Ferziger and Saud Abu Ramadan

June 3 (Bloomberg) -- Hamas refused to accept an Israeli delivery of at least 20 truckloads of humanitarian aid from the flotilla of ships that commandos intercepted in a raid that left nine people dead.

Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip and Israel’s Defense Ministry said today the cargo, including medical supplies, clothing, blankets and toys, was held up at the Kerem Shalom crossing after being brought 38 kilometers (23.6 miles) south from the port in Ashdod.

Hamas said it wouldn’t take the aid because Israel confiscated some of the supplies and was still holding some of the more than 700 passengers involved in the May 31 attempt to break Israel’s naval blockade of Gaza. Israel said last night it had expelled all foreigners from the ships except for seven who are hospitalized. It is also detaining an Israeli Arab religious leader who may be prosecuted. Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by Israel, the U.S. and the European Union.

The pro-Palestinian activists were attempting to sail into Gaza, which has been under Israeli blockade since the Islamic Hamas movement took full control of the territory in 2007. A seventh ship has sailed for Gaza to try and breach the Israeli blockade.

Egypt temporarily eased its own blockade on the Gaza Strip yesterday to allow trucks of food and other supplies to cross the border and more than 600 Palestinians to leave, according to Palestinian border officials.

Global Condemnation

The Israeli raid on the ships has led to condemnation throughout the world. The United Nations Human Rights Council adopted a resolution to authorize an independent international investigation of the raid. The U.S., the Netherlands and Italy voted against the measure.

“The government decided not to receive any aid until the occupation releases all those who are held,” Ahmed al-Kurd, the Hamas minister for social welfare, said in a telephone interview from his office in Gaza City. “We will accept all of the aid or none of it.”

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused Israel of carrying out a “massacre” of unarmed humanitarian volunteers and demanded an immediate end to the embargo on Gaza. Eight of the dead were Turkish citizens while the ninth was a U.S. citizen of Turkish origin, Turkey’s state-run Anatolia news agency reported.

Flotilla Cargo

The Israeli Defense Ministry unit that coordinates civilian issues with the Palestinian Authority said it had checked the flotilla cargo for weapons and other prohibited materials before delivering it to Gaza.

Israel is “acting in coordination with international aid organizations operating in the Gaza Strip which are waiting for the transfer of the cargo on the other side of the border,” the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories said in a statement posted on the Defense Forces website.

Al-Kurd said Hamas was waiting for instructions from the Turkish government on whether to accept the supplies.

“We will wait for a Turkish green light to receive the aid because this flotilla was flying the Turkish flag,” he said. “Once it decides we should take the aid, we will take it.”

stevieray
06-10-2010, 07:27 AM
Defleckshun's progressivism will be making the jump to Marxism shortly. His next 'crusade' will be tying 'evil' capitalism and the 'evil' Jew together, in efforts to squash the free market.

I'm just glad he checked how to spell Palestine before he pretended to wave their flag in support.