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BigRedChief
06-03-2010, 07:03 AM
Spinoff thread....

Not going to define how someone is the "best" baseball player of all time, thats for you to decide. I will define the possibilites to "retired" or "deceased" players. I kept the list to 15 and I'm sure I'm leaving worthy candidates off the list by putting in more current players like Griffey and Bonds.

Baseball almanacs list from 1998
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/lisn100.shtml

Baseball Guru cicra 2003:
http://baseballguru.com/egartman/analysisericgartman08.html

2008:
http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2008/05/top-100-baseball-players-of-all-time.html


Write in your vote and I'll keep a tally of the votes in this orginal post.

Write in votes:
George Brett 1 vote
Pete Rose 1 vote

DaKCMan AP
06-03-2010, 07:08 AM
DaKCMan AP.

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 07:09 AM
It's Babe Ruth, and it's not even close. Especially since you've defined it as "baseball player", which suggests overall talent at the sport of baseball. How many dominant pitchers who won World Series then became the most dominant hitter in the game, redefining the entire way the game is played?

That would be one.

BigRedChief
06-03-2010, 07:11 AM
DaKCMan AP.You know I never got to see him play but I heard he was awesome.

Thig Lyfe
06-03-2010, 07:13 AM
KEN GRIFFEY JR. BECAUSE AMERICA!

wilas101
06-03-2010, 07:14 AM
while I was never a huge fan i'm curious about the exclusion of pete rose.

ChiefJustice
06-03-2010, 07:17 AM
5


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yKSo5xPjLpM/S7tpZOQfLwI/AAAAAAAAMA0/Bdc87PQDjGc/s1600/george.brett.jpg

BigRedChief
06-03-2010, 07:19 AM
while I was never a huge fan i'm curious about the exclusion of pete rose.Is that a vote for him?

Mojo Jojo
06-03-2010, 07:21 AM
Willie Mays....
Hit for average...Hit for power,had a lot of speed and the best defensive center fielder ever

DaKCMan AP
06-03-2010, 07:30 AM
KEN GRIFFEY JR. BECAUSE AMERICA!

AMERICA, **** YEAH

BigRedChief
06-03-2010, 07:30 AM
I went with Babe Ruth not only because of his offensive numbers but also he was a dominate pitcher, saved and changed the game after the Black Sox scandal.

DaKCMan AP
06-03-2010, 07:32 AM
I went with Babe Ruth not only because of his offensive numbers but also he was a dominate pitcher, saved and changed the game after the Black Sox scandal.

The Great Bambino!

BigChiefFan
06-03-2010, 07:35 AM
Babe Ruth, by far. His accomplishments put all others to shame.

rockymtnchief
06-03-2010, 07:38 AM
Mays.

Just as good in the field as he was at the plate.

DaKCMan AP
06-03-2010, 07:39 AM
The Colossus of Clout!

Brainiac
06-03-2010, 07:44 AM
It's Babe Ruth, and it's not even close. Especially since you've defined it as "baseball player", which suggests overall talent at the sport of baseball. How many dominant pitchers who won World Series then became the most dominant hitter in the game, redefining the entire way the game is played?

That would be one.
Exactly. The discussion really begins and ends with Babe Ruth. If he hadn't been such a great hitter, he would have gone down in history as one of the greatest pitchers of all time.

DaKCMan AP
06-03-2010, 07:45 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Babe_Ruth2.jpg/455px-Babe_Ruth2.jpg

|Zach|
06-03-2010, 07:46 AM
Ken Harvey.

BigChiefFan
06-03-2010, 07:47 AM
Willie Mays was great, but his accomplishments are measured more by what he did FOR the game, than what he did in the games. Great player, but wake me when he hits 4 HRs in a WS in the same year.

Brainiac
06-03-2010, 07:48 AM
By the way, the story of Babe Ruth is one of the reasons I've always hated the DH rule.

noa
06-03-2010, 07:51 AM
They may not be the best players of all time, but I think you have to include Mordecai Three Finger Brown and Christy Matthewson in the discussion.

Personally, I think I would go with Ty Cobb even though he was a nasty SOB.

Count Alex's Losses
06-03-2010, 07:54 AM
Poll is incomplete.

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/138824_f260.jpg

Saulbadguy
06-03-2010, 07:55 AM
The Colossus of Clout!

The Colossus of Clout!

Brainiac
06-03-2010, 07:58 AM
They may not be the best players of all time, but I think you have to include Mordecai Three Finger Brown and Christy Matthewson in the discussion.

Personally, I think I would go with Ty Cobb even though he was a nasty SOB.
Ty Cobb was a helluva player, I'll give you that.

If you had a player that combined Ty Cobb's hitting with the pitching accomplishments of Brown or Matthewson, THAT player would be in the same league as Babe Ruth.

I'm not taking anything away from Cobb, Brown, or Matthewson. They just didn't accomplish what the Bambino did.

ChiefJustice
06-03-2010, 08:02 AM
Poll is incomplete.

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/138824_f260.jpg


93 thousand posts?

Phew...

Each one a gem.

Sofa King
06-03-2010, 08:12 AM
No Pete Rose option?

BigRedChief
06-03-2010, 08:17 AM
No Pete Rose option?Is that a write in vote?

wilas101
06-03-2010, 08:18 AM
Is that a vote for him?


no, I'm not sure I'm ready to say he was the best of all time but I think he'd be top 3 easily.


mostly I was just wondering how he didn't make the cut. :)

DaKCMan AP
06-03-2010, 08:20 AM
No Benjamin Franklin "Benny the Jet" Rodriguez?

BigRedChief
06-03-2010, 08:25 AM
no, I'm not sure I'm ready to say he was the best of all time but I think he'd be top 3 easily.


mostly I was just wondering how he didn't make the cut. :)I think 15 players was enough. He didn't have any power, no true position, his defense is supect. He could hit singles, doubles and hustled. Thats not enough to be the best player in baseball history.

blaise
06-03-2010, 08:35 AM
Pete Rose was great but he wouldn't be on the list, and certainly not top 3. He didn't hit for power. You have guys on that list, like Ted Williams, that hit for average and power. Pete Rose is more on the Rickey Henderson level of greatness, not Mays and Williams and Ruth.

blaise
06-03-2010, 08:38 AM
Willie Mays was great, but his accomplishments are measured more by what he did FOR the game, than what he did in the games. Great player, but wake me when he hits 4 HRs in a WS in the same year.

The 660 he hit in his career weren't enough?

Chief Henry
06-03-2010, 08:39 AM
Stan "The Man" Musial

because I'm a Cardinals homer. He was a 24 time All-Star !!!

Steron
06-03-2010, 08:42 AM
Joe Jackson

http://padresteve.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/shoeless-joe.jpg

blaise
06-03-2010, 08:48 AM
Ty Cobb was a helluva player, I'll give you that.

If you had a player that combined Ty Cobb's hitting with the pitching accomplishments of Brown or Matthewson, THAT player would be in the same league as Babe Ruth.

I'm not taking anything away from Cobb, Brown, or Matthewson. They just didn't accomplish what the Bambino did.

I used to get a baseball publication called the EFQ Review that was all about baseball. It dealt with a lot of baseball history. (they don't print it anymore, sadly) It once had an interesting article showing that up to a certain point in history, I think as late as the 50's, Cobb was generally recognized in magazine and news articles as being basically Ruth's equal. They were sort of hand in hand as the two greatest when they were referred to in print. Then, after a time, it shifted toward Ruth.

DJ's left nut
06-03-2010, 08:50 AM
20 time all-star.

All time leader in RBI and HRs.*

All time leader in total bases, 4th in Runs, 10th in doubles.

Lifetime .300+ hitter with more BBs than Ks.

2 time batting champion and 3rd on the career hits list. And he's the all time leader in XBH, so unlike Rose's worthless GB singles, the man made his 3700+ hits count.

Hank Aaron never gets enough credit in these discussions.

I've always thought he was the only true challenger to Ruth in this discussion.

raybec 4
06-03-2010, 08:51 AM
I went with the frozen head, he was a helluva ballplayer and an all around model American.

DaKCMan AP
06-03-2010, 08:54 AM
Joe Jackson

http://padresteve.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/shoeless-joe.jpg

Yeah, but he's wearing shoes.

Hydrae
06-03-2010, 09:00 AM
I think Roberto Clemente would be in this discussion if he hadn't died early.

I am trying to think of the guys name. A Negro league catcher I believe. Joe something. A lot of people from back then say he was hands down the best during the time of Ruth and company. Anyone know who I am talking about?

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 09:07 AM
I used to get a baseball publication called the EFQ Review that was all about baseball. It dealt with a lot of baseball history. (they don't print it anymore, sadly) It once had an interesting article showing that up to a certain point in history, I think as late as the 50's, Cobb was generally recognized in magazine and news articles as being basically Ruth's equal. They were sort of hand in hand as the two greatest when they were referred to in print. Then, after a time, it shifted toward Ruth.

That's correct. In fact, there was a survey sent to all surviving MLB players in like the 1940's and one of the questions was "who was the greatest player you ever saw" and a whopping 90% said Cobb. Wagner and Ruth split the other 10%.

But it's hard to go against Ruth simply on account of him being a very good pitcher as well.

Cobb's resume is pretty insane though:

1st All-Time in Batting Avg: .366
2nd All-Time in Runs: 2246
2nd All-Time in Hits: 4189
2nd All-Time in Singles: 3053
2nd All-Time in Doubles: 724
2nd All-Time in Triples: 295
4th All-Time in Stolen Bases: 892
5th All-Time in Total Bases: 5854
5th All-Time in Runs Created: 2522
10th All-Time in OPS+: 167
7th All-Time in RBI: 1937

"Ty Cobb is not only the greatest player in the history of the American League, but of all time. His achievements on the diamond are so notable that I doubt if the game ever produces his equal, certainly not his superior." - Connie Mack

"Ty was the smartest player that I ever saw by so great a margin that I won't even bother to think who was second best." - Walter Johnson

"The greatest ballplayer I ever saw? Well, I'll have to say Ty Cobb. He could do more with a bat than any player in my time and I don't suppose there ever was a base runner like him." - Babe Ruth

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him as the greatest all-time ballplayer. Ruth was sensational. Cobb went beyond that. When he wiggled those wild eyes at a pitcher, you knew you were looking at the one bird no one could beat. It was like he was superhuman." - Casey Stengel

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 09:07 AM
I think Roberto Clemente would be in this discussion if he hadn't died early.

I am trying to think of the guys name. A Negro league catcher I believe. Joe something. A lot of people from back then say he was hands down the best during the time of Ruth and company. Anyone know who I am talking about?

Josh Gibson

Reaper16
06-03-2010, 09:09 AM
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jeKXmat9458&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jeKXmat9458&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

MOhillbilly
06-03-2010, 09:13 AM
christy mathewson. ted williams.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 09:14 AM
Cobb.

MOhillbilly
06-03-2010, 09:18 AM
I went with the frozen head, he was a helluva ballplayer and an all around model American.

me and you think alot alike on shit.

Infidel Goat
06-03-2010, 09:34 AM
Ruth and then Ted Williams, imo.

Give Williams the full seasons in '43, '44, and 45 and most of the seasons he missed in '52 and '53 due to military service--and all of a sudden, he's pushing 700 home runs and probably increasing his .344 life time batting average.

Dave Lane
06-03-2010, 09:37 AM
Ruth by a mile. When you hit more home runs than the entire rest of the league did previously you are head and shoulders above everyone else. Plus a monster pitcher.

CoMoChief
06-03-2010, 09:48 AM
If it's not Willie Mays, then I'd pick Mickey Mantle.

Never seen him play but in his prime I've heard from my dad and his friends he was the best ball player they've ever seen.

Hydrae
06-03-2010, 09:54 AM
Josh Gibson

Thanks, rep!

Without footage from back then but I know a lot of players from the time felt that he was much better than anyone else playing in the big leagues.

Of course that also brings in the question of Satchel Paige, perhaps the greatest pitcher of all time. I believe he may have played in the majors but he would have been way past his prime by then.

banyon
06-03-2010, 09:54 AM
That's correct. In fact, there was a survey sent to all surviving MLB players in like the 1940's and one of the questions was "who was the greatest player you ever saw" and a whopping 90% said Cobb. Wagner and Ruth split the other 10%.

But it's hard to go against Ruth simply on account of him being a very good pitcher as well.

Cobb's resume is pretty insane though:

1st All-Time in Batting Avg: .366
2nd All-Time in Runs: 2246
2nd All-Time in Hits: 4189
2nd All-Time in Singles: 3053
2nd All-Time in Doubles: 724
2nd All-Time in Triples: 295
4th All-Time in Stolen Bases: 892
5th All-Time in Total Bases: 5854
5th All-Time in Runs Created: 2522
10th All-Time in OPS+: 167
7th All-Time in RBI: 1937

"Ty Cobb is not only the greatest player in the history of the American League, but of all time. His achievements on the diamond are so notable that I doubt if the game ever produces his equal, certainly not his superior." - Connie Mack

"Ty was the smartest player that I ever saw by so great a margin that I won't even bother to think who was second best." - Walter Johnson

"The greatest ballplayer I ever saw? Well, I'll have to say Ty Cobb. He could do more with a bat than any player in my time and I don't suppose there ever was a base runner like him." - Babe Ruth

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him as the greatest all-time ballplayer. Ruth was sensational. Cobb went beyond that. When he wiggled those wild eyes at a pitcher, you knew you were looking at the one bird no one could beat. It was like he was superhuman." - Casey Stengel


I voted Ruth, but Cobb would be my #2 (close with Mays at 3).

Look up "stealing for the cycle" some time. He did it 6 times!

Also, if Cobb hadn't played in the Dead Ball era his career HR's would've been much higher too. He did lead the league in HR's for several years, but it was at a rate of like 12, or 10 for the whole season. No one could hit very many at that time.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 09:58 AM
I don't comment on people I didn't see play...

I grew up playing baseball...baseball was my sport...

Griffey Jr. was my baseball idol...my number was 24 in every sport...because of Jr.

Prettiest swing I've ever seen. I envy the guy...

AMAZING.

However...

I voted for Barry Bonds...

Roids or not...holy shit man...that dude could flat out RAKE.

WilliamTheIrish
06-03-2010, 10:03 AM
Saw Hank Aaron hit number 748 for the Brewers in KC. I think he's the best player that ever played.


And the second best player I ever saw live had to be Reggie Jackson. He was the first guy that ever stopped me from getting up from my seat at a game when he came up to bat.

Gadzooks
06-03-2010, 10:05 AM
Where's George Bell?:shrug:
Since he's not there, I had to vote for my second choice Babe Ruth.:rolleyes:

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:09 AM
I think 15 players was enough. He didn't have any power, no true position, his defense is supect. He could hit singles, doubles and hustled. Thats not enough to be the best player in baseball history.

This. He has a lifetime BA of .303 for god's sake, with 160 career HRs.

Babe batted .342 with 714. It's not even a discussion. Ignoring the whole gambling scandal, Rose is a very good hitter (certainly HOF worthy) with insane longevity and gets extra points for giving 110% all the time.

That doesn't elevate him into the all time greatest discussion. Honestly, I'm pretty sure I'd come up with at least 50, maybe 100 names, before I hit Pete Rose.

Heck, Ty Cobb was Pete Rose, 50 years earlier, but was a much better player overall than Rose. And it's not even close. He batted 60 points higher (.366 lifetime), still had 117 HRs and had 897 stolen bases to Rose's 198.

Cobb's lifetime OBP was .433 to Rose's .375, and his slugging was HIGHER than Rose's, .512 to .409.

That's not a comparison, that's a blowout. And I bet if I looked up a few other guys like Tris Speaker and Shoeless Joe Jackson, I'd come up with the same result. But honestly, it's not worht the effort.

Again, this has nothing to do with gambling. Rose just doesn't make the grade. Not even close.

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:10 AM
I don't comment on people I didn't see play...

I grew up playing baseball...baseball was my sport...

Griffey Jr. was my baseball idol...my number was 24 in every sport...because of Jr.

Prettiest swing I've ever seen. I envy the guy...

AMAZING.

However...

I voted for Barry Bonds...

Roids or not...holy shit man...that dude could flat out RAKE.

Because sports didn't exist before 1992. We understand.

:p

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 10:10 AM
some of you might be interested in these. I made these several years ago for Baseball-Fever.com. I made lots of them, but here are the ones for some of the big dogs we are discussing:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4y9ml7VhlY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V4y9ml7VhlY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

the homer that Babe hits at the end of this video must have gone a mile:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aB1Z-7yDSAY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aB1Z-7yDSAY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FnSasG3P5d4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FnSasG3P5d4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

and a compilation I did:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=5330330&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=&amp;ful lscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=5330330&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=&amp;ful lscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/5330330">Legends of Baseball with titles</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1898856">OleMissCub</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:12 AM
Saw Hank Aaron hit number 748 for the Brewers in KC. I think he's the best player that ever played.


And the second best player I ever saw live had to be Reggie Jackson. He was the first guy that ever stopped me from getting up from my seat at a game when he came up to bat.

The best player I saw live is probably A-Rod. If there's an omission from the list it's probably him.

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:13 AM
Ruth and then Ted Williams, imo.

Give Williams the full seasons in '43, '44, and 45 and most of the seasons he missed in '52 and '53 due to military service--and all of a sudden, he's pushing 700 home runs and probably increasing his .344 life time batting average.

I agree that Williams in his prime was probably the second best HITTER, after Babe. Player is a bit dicey, as he wasn't anything above average in the field, and wasn't exactly a threat on the basepaths.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 10:13 AM
I voted Ruth, but Cobb would be my #2 (close with Mays at 3).

Look up "stealing for the cycle" some time. He did it 6 times!

Also, if Cobb hadn't played in the Dead Ball era his career HR's would've been much higher too. He did lead the league in HR's for several years, but it was at a rate of like 12, or 10 for the whole season. No one could hit very many at that time.

It's been a few years since I've read Stump's biography of Cobb, but IIRC there was a part about where somebody criticized Cobb for not hitting more home runs before a game. Cobb claimed he didn't like home runs and didn't try to hit them, but just to show that he could do it, he promptly hit home runs in his next two (or three?) at bats.

You don't have an excuse to injure people with your sharpened spikes if you hit a home run. Considering what a bastard he was, that might explain it.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:14 AM
Because sports didn't exist before 1992. We understand.

:p

hey I'm 25...

I've never hid from that fact...and I'll never be one to talk about something I never witnessed...

Personally...

I think people who talk about guys they never saw play (Babe Ruth for example) are kind of a joke...

My opinions...and the things I say...are all things I witness and TRULY believe...

you'll never see me talk about Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain because I wasn't alive, I never saw them play...and frankly...I do not care.

You're right...

In my eyes...

TO ME

Sports didn't exist until 1992.

Sorry I'm young.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:15 AM
and FTR...

I guarantee no player...

EVER

was EVER

in full god mode like Barry Bonds when he was roided out of his mind late in his career...

For christ's sake he had an OPS of over 1.400 one year...

that's pure insanity...

.609 OBP??!

Jesus.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:16 AM
from 1992 through 2007 the lowest OPS Bonds ever had was .999...

...

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:18 AM
Jr. only had an OPS over 1.000 in 93, 94 and 96, 97...

That's how superior Bonds was to Jr...

and like I said...

Jr. was the baseball version of MJ to me...

I was a baseball player moreso than a basketball player and my number every year from pony league - varsity - legion - EI was #24...

I loved Griffey...

This is as sad as I've felt about a retirement since MJ...

Granted...Griffey may as well have stopped playing once he left Seattle...those were his "glory days"...

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 10:20 AM
I never saw them play...and frankly...I do not care.


I'm only a few years older than you and I care alot about sports that came before my time. Makes you sound like a stupid little kid when you only think about how your generation of players were the greatest of all time or whatever.

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:20 AM
It's been a few years since I've read Stump's biography of Cobb, but IIRC there was a part about where somebody criticized Cobb for not hitting more home runs before a game. Cobb claimed he didn't like home runs and didn't try to hit them, but just to show that he could do it, he promptly hit home runs in his next two (or three?) at bats.

Close. After being pestered by reporters once too often about Ruth and all his home runs, he told them it wasn't especially hard and that it took no special skill.

So he went out and hit THREE IN ONE GAME the next day, and then two in the game after that.

This was 1925, when he was in the mid/late 30s and wrapping up his 20+ year career.

The issue was he had to put his hands at the bottom of the bat, which meant losing control which he didn't like to do. But yeah, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that he could've hit a helluva lot of home runs if he had been that type of player.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 10:20 AM
Blow it out your ass, Hootie. Nobody cares about your love affair with cheater Bonds.

Sam Hall
06-03-2010, 10:22 AM
Ruth because of how he dominated the era and his ability to drive himself in from the batter's box.

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:22 AM
and FTR...

I guarantee no player...

EVER

was EVER

in full god mode like Barry Bonds when he was roided out of his mind late in his career...

For christ's sake he had an OPS of over 1.400 one year...

that's pure insanity...

.609 OBP??!

Jesus.

I'm pretty sure you could say Ruth was in full God mode for a large portion of his career, considering his HR totals dwarfed the totals most teams had back then.

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:22 AM
and FTR...

I guarantee no player...

EVER

was EVER

in full god mode like Barry Bonds when he was roided out of his mind late in his career...

For christ's sake he had an OPS of over 1.400 one year...

that's pure insanity...

.609 OBP??!

Jesus.

That's true. Barry at his peak 'roiding was as good as anyone has ever seen. Babe had 1300+ OPS twice, so he came close. And was clean.

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:25 AM
hey I'm 25...

I've never hid from that fact...and I'll never be one to talk about something I never witnessed...

Personally...

I think people who talk about guys they never saw play (Babe Ruth for example) are kind of a joke...

My opinions...and the things I say...are all things I witness and TRULY believe...

you'll never see me talk about Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain because I wasn't alive, I never saw them play...and frankly...I do not care.

You're right...

In my eyes...

TO ME

Sports didn't exist until 1992.

Sorry I'm young.

The thread title is the best player of all time. Not the best player of your lifetime.

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:28 AM
from 1992 through 2007 the lowest OPS Bonds ever had was .999...

...

Dude, throw out one season -- 1925, when he was hurt -- and Babe never posted less than 1.106 over a 14 year stretch from 1919 to 1932.

Oh, and he was CLEAN*

unless hot dogs are a steroid...

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:29 AM
The thread title is the best player of all time. Not the best player of your lifetime.

Or best 'roided up a-hole wearing plate armor of the last 20 years...

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 10:33 AM
two video game seasons from Cobb and Ruth:

Cobb 1911: .420/.467/.621, 196 OPS+, 248 hits, 47 doubles, 24 triples, 147 runs, 127 RBI, 83 stolen bases

Ruth 1921: .378/.512/.846, 239 OPS+, 204 hits, 59 HR, 44 doubles, 16 triples, 177 runs, 171 RBI, 17 stolen bases

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:34 AM
I'm only a few years older than you and I care alot about sports that came before my time. Makes you sound like a stupid little kid when you only think about how your generation of players were the greatest of all time or whatever.

well you totally took me out of context there...

I acknowledge the fact there were sports before I started watching...

Drr...

But I don't believe I'm entitled to comment on things I didn't see for myself...

I love it when 25 year olds talk about how great Ted Williams was...how amazing Magic was...how terrific Namath was etc. etc. etc.

you fucking never saw them so STFU

that's my opinion

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:35 AM
Or best 'roided up a-hole wearing plate armor of the last 20 years...

I'm not sure he should be posting Bonds statistics, actually. I mean, he can only comment on events he witnessed, everything else doesn't count. I'm skeptical he actually watched every Bonds at bat included in those statistics.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:35 AM
Blow it out your ass, Hootie. Nobody cares about your love affair with cheater Bonds.

I can't wait until Albert slips up...

Can't
Fucking
Wait

it's hilarious how naive Cardinals fans are...

if anyone thinks Pujols and Ryan Howard weren't...at one point...on the juice or he HGH etc. etc.

they are kidding themselves

JUST FUCKING LOOK AT THE GUYS

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:38 AM
Personally...

Amnorix

I think it's impossible to compare Bonds and Ruth...

Would Ruth have dominated the steroid era like Bonds...?

I have my doubts...

Just like all of those 1970s NFL players...

you think any of them would even compete in today's NFL?

I understand that baseball is a little different...and if you can rake, you can rake...

but I am pretty sure pitching is a lot tougher to hit today then it was back in the day...relievers alone prove that...

much easier to hit a guy the 3rd or 4th time around than it is the 1st and 2nd...and back then...teams used like 5 pitchers...

teedubya
06-03-2010, 10:38 AM
To me, the best baseball player EVER is Ted Williams. His hitting philosophy was amazing. I've taught it to my son, and he is batting 11/15 this year, so far.

I've taught it to his teammates and everyone on the team has at least 4 hits, except one kid who has zero, and has NEVER played the game before.... and his dad doesn't work with him.

Ted Williams the Science of Hitting, is the best book on teaching hitting that I've ever read. That guy was amazing... and I don't really like the Red Sox.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:39 AM
and again...

watching Bonds was...

Wow.

When he was in God mode for that 5 season stretch...

Pitchers literally couldn't pitch to him...he was UNBELIEVABLE...

I mean we see Albert now and we're like "whoa"...but he paled in comparison to Bonds.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 10:39 AM
I can't wait until Albert slips up...

Can't
Fucking
Wait

it's hilarious how naive Cardinals fans are...

if anyone thinks Pujols and Ryan Howard weren't...at one point...on the juice or he HGH etc. etc.

they are kidding themselves

JUST FUCKING LOOK AT THE GUYS

:deevee:

Like it wouldn't have broken by now. Idiot.

But Pujols and Howard both have one thing Bonds never got - A WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP RING.

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:41 AM
and again...

watching Bonds was...

Wow.

When he was in God mode for that 5 season stretch...

Pitchers literally couldn't pitch to him...he was UNBELIEVABLE...

I mean we see Albert now and we're like "whoa"...but he paled in comparison to Bonds.

Uh huh, and Bonds paled in comparison to Bonds before Balco.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:42 AM
:deevee:

Like it wouldn't have broken by now. Idiot.

But Pujols and Howard both have one thing Bonds never got - A WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP RING.

This cracks me up.

Remember when Baker blew the Series for the Giants???

Remember?

What do you think Barry Bonds did that postseason?

So please...

STFU

That is more hilarious than blaming Peyton Manning for his team losing.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:43 AM
Uh huh, and Bonds paled in comparison to Bonds before Balco.

Really?

REALLY??????

Go look at his 1994 and get back to me.

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:44 AM
This cracks me up.

Remember when Baker blew the Series for the Giants???

Remember?

What do you think Barry Bonds did that postseason?

So please...

STFU

That is more hilarious than blaming Peyton Manning for his team losing.

Steroids?

Consistent1
06-03-2010, 10:45 AM
I voted for Bonds also. Not even getting into the arguments this time.It's to compare everything between eras because things the money involved,technology advances in several ways,player nutrition,drugs,pitching strategy,etc.They are all greats on the list.
Posted via Mobile Device

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:45 AM
2002 World Series:

Bonds hit .471 and had an .OPS of 1.994

LMAO

But damn...

he sucks because he never won a World Series!

THAT'S ON HIM

FUCK OFF FRAZOD...your and idiot

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:47 AM
Pujols...

Do you want his two WS stat lines?!

Do you?

Because they aren't so good.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 10:47 AM
This cracks me up.

Remember when Baker blew the Series for the Giants???

Remember?

What do you think Barry Bonds did that postseason?

So please...

STFU

That is more hilarious than blaming Peyton Manning for his team losing.

This really burns your ass, doesn't it?

Suck it, loser.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:48 AM
Congrats Albert!!!!

Way to hit .200 in that WS victory!!!!

Man he's so much more clutch than Bonds!!!!

Frazod
06-03-2010, 10:50 AM
Congrats Albert!!!!

Way to hit .200 in that WS victory!!!!

Man he's so much more clutch than Bonds!!!!

You should get that put on a t-shirt, fucktard. ROFL

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 10:50 AM
http://abritishman.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/barry-bonds.jpg

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:51 AM
Look...

Barry was a "cheater"...

But holy shit...no one else could cheat and ever become what he became...

and he was doing it before the Roids...

the strike shortened season of 94 was every bit as good as any of his roiding years...

it's a shame that guys like McGwire and Canseco forced his hand...

I truly believe he said..."fuck it! Watch this!"

and we all watched...

and it was amazing

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:52 AM
Really?

REALLY??????

Go look at his 1994 and get back to me.

Yes, really. Bonds's numbers in the mid 90's aren't better than what Pujols has been putting up. You're the one that said Pujols's numbers "paled" in comparison to Bonds. So which is it? Do Pujols's number stack up, or do Bonds's number from the mid 90's not stack up? It has to be one or the other. Unless of course you're claiming Bonds's offensive statistics in the mid 90's are somehow better than what Albert's been doing over the last few years.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:52 AM
and I would bet ANYTHING that Pujols has "cheated" before in his career...

ANYTHING...

I have no hate for Albert...love watching good baseball and right now, he defines it...

but look at the mother fucker...

if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

Amnorix
06-03-2010, 10:53 AM
Personally...

Amnorix

I think it's impossible to compare Bonds and Ruth...

Would Ruth have dominated the steroid era like Bonds...?

I have my doubts...

Just like all of those 1970s NFL players...

you think any of them would even compete in today's NFL?

I understand that baseball is a little different...and if you can rake, you can rake...

but I am pretty sure pitching is a lot tougher to hit today then it was back in the day...relievers alone prove that...

much easier to hit a guy the 3rd or 4th time around than it is the 1st and 2nd...and back then...teams used like 5 pitchers...

Nothing is comparable in sports across that kind of time. We can't do anything except compare the players in their era. If you're trying to determine best all time, all you can do is deal with what you have.

But keep in mind also that today's game is somewhat watered down with dispersed talent (more teams etc.). Of course, you also have minority players now, whereas in the old days it was all white. Of course, the spitter was legal then, so...

But then the mound was higher, or lower, or whatever.

You can't compare. It's a waste of time to get into it.

So don't waste my time. Ruth was the best player ever because he dominated more within his era than anybody ever, and because he was both an elite pticher and an elite hitter.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:53 AM
Yes, really. Bonds's numbers in the mid 90's aren't better than what Pujols has been putting up. You're the one that said Pujols's numbers "paled" in comparison to Bonds. So which is it? Do Pujols's number stack up, or do Bonds's number from the mid 90's not stack up? It has to be one or the other. Unless of course you're claiming Bonds's offensive statistics in the mid 90's are somehow better than what Albert's been doing over the last few years.

the power numbers are comparable...sure

in the early 90s

they are quite comparable

but link me as soon as Pujols steals 500+ bases

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:55 AM
Nothing is comparable in sports across that kind of time. We can't do anything except compare the players in their era. If you're trying to determine best all time, all you can do is deal with what you have.

But keep in mind also that today's game is somewhat watered down with dispersed talent (more teams etc.). Of course, you also have minority players now, whereas in the old days it was all white. Of course, the spitter was legal then, so...

But then the mound was higher, or lower, or whatever.

You can't compare. It's a waste of time to get into it.

So don't waste my time. Ruth was the best player ever because he dominated more within his era than anybody ever, and because he was both an elite pticher and an elite hitter.

but there it is man...

he was basically a professional player playing against amateur talent...

it's like a 9th grader playing in a 5th grade league

it's not like that for guys these days

it was for Ruth
it was for Chamberlain

etc.

know what I mean?

Jilly
06-03-2010, 10:58 AM
Mays..... because if I'm going with best overall player, not just hitter, he had it all, even on defense.

blaise
06-03-2010, 10:58 AM
the power numbers are comparable...sure

in the early 90s

they are quite comparable

but link me as soon as Pujols steals 500+ bases

You're trying to have it both ways. You're using statistical comparisons, but you're saying people should only base opinion on what they've seen. If you're using stats then there's no reason why you shouldn't ba able to use any stat, from any time period. You don't make any sense. You can't say "base it on the eye test" and then start throwing around stats. That's like trying to have it both ways.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 10:58 AM
Found this article in an old thread (the link is dead now) about cheater Bonds' elbow armor. I still can't believe he was allowed to wear this Darth Vader crap for so long.

EXCLUSIVE: Barry Bonds' Home Run Record Tainted by Mechanical Device

By Michael Witte

Published: August 06, 2007 10:45 AM

NEW YORK (Commentary) Beyond his alleged steroid use, Barry Bonds is guilty of the use of something that confers extraordinarily unfair mechanical advantage: the “armor” that he wears on his right elbow. Amid the press frenzy over Bonds’ unnatural bulk, the true role of the object on his right arm has simply gone unnoticed.

This is unfortunate, because by my estimate, Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total.

Bonds tied Henry Aaron’s home run record of 755 on Saturday night and will go for the new standard this week back at home in San Francisco. As a student of baseball – and currently a mechanics consultant to a major league baseball team -- I believe I have insight into the Bonds "achievement." I have studied his swing countless times on video and examined the mechanical gear closely through photographs.

For years, sportswriters remarked that his massive "protective" gear – unequaled in all of baseball -- permits Bonds to lean over the plate without fear of being hit by a pitch. Thus situated, Bonds can handle the outside pitch (where most pitchers live) unusually well. This is unfair advantage enough, but no longer controversial. However, it is only one of at least seven (largely unexplored) advantages conferred by the apparatus.

The other six:

1) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal "hitting machine" that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

2) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of he levers of Bonds' wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical "assistant."

3) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.

4) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.

5) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.

6) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

Bonds has worn some sort of front arm protection since 1992. In '94, a one-piece forearm guard was replaced by a jointed, two piece elbow model. In ‘95 it got bigger and a small "cap" on the elbow was replaced by a "flap" that overlapped the upper piece and locked the two pieces together when the arm was elongated. In '96, the "apparatus" grew even larger and so did the "flap."

It seems to have remained relatively the same until -- interestingly— 2001, the year of his record 73 home runs, when an advanced model appeared made (apparently) of a new material. It had softer edges and a groove for the flap to slip into automatically at full arm elongation. More important, the upper half of the machine was sculpted to conform more comfortably to the contours of Bonds' upper arm. Since 2001, the apparatus seems to have remained relatively unchanged.

Several years back, baseball was rightfully scandalized by the revelation that Sammy Sosa had "corked" his bat. The advantages conferred by the Bonds "hitting machine," however, far exceed anything supplied by cork. Ultimately, it appears the Bonds "achievement” must be regarded as partly the product of “double duplicity" -- steroidal and mechanical.




Michael Witte (gmitchell@editorandpublisher.com) is a well-known illustrator whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, Time, Sports Illustrated, The Wall Street Journal and dozens of other publications. The New Yorker recently wrote a piece about him and his study of mechanics. He appeared on network TV coverage of the 2003 World Series, providing cartoon sketches of some of the action.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 10:58 AM
Meh.

Mays wasn't any better at defense than Griffey Jr.

he just had a signature move

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:00 AM
LMAO

that's the best one yet Frazod...

remember when you posted that a year ago

yeah I bet his arm gear turned him into the best hitter ever...

that's it!!!

LOL

people go SO FAR in their hate mission when it comes to Bonds

blaise
06-03-2010, 11:00 AM
Meh.

Mays wasn't any better at defense than Griffey Jr.

he just had a signature move

So, you saw Mays play?

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:00 AM
You're trying to have it both ways. You're using statistical comparisons, but you're saying people should only base opinion on what they've seen. If you're using stats then there's no reason why you shouldn't ba able to use any stat, from any time period. You don't make any sense. You can't say "base it on the eye test" and then start throwing around stats. That's like trying to have it both ways.

I've seen Barry

I've seen Albert

Barry was the better hitter...and it wasn't even close...

Albert is to Barry what Tom is to Peyton...

Albert is great...he's the best going right now...and #2 isn't even close...

but he was never Barry

CoMoChief
06-03-2010, 11:01 AM
and I would bet ANYTHING that Pujols has "cheated" before in his career...

ANYTHING...

I have no hate for Albert...love watching good baseball and right now, he defines it...

but look at the mother ****er...

if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

Well there's no proof of that.

However he's lied about his age. I've seen him play legion ball against my friends older brother. Pujols played for Hi-Boy, and he looked like a man among boys....literally.

He also went to a JUCO program that's been notorious for juicin' up. That doesn't mean that he did it.......he's a great ballplayer and it would suck to see him being in that mix, but usually when there's smoke, there's fire. Maybe he worked his ass off. I dunno. He was a fat pudgy shit coming into the minors.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:01 AM
So, you saw Mays play?

I've seen him catch the ball before...

any historian would tell you that Griffey was every bit of the OF'er as Mays...

CoMoChief
06-03-2010, 11:02 AM
I've seen Barry

I've seen Albert

Barry was the better hitter...and it wasn't even close...

Albert is to Barry what Tom is to Peyton...

Albert is great...he's the best going right now...and #2 isn't even close...

but he was never Barry

:rolleyes:

come on man.....really?

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:02 AM
Well there's no proof of that.

However he's lied about his age. I've seen him play legion ball against my friends older brother. Pujols played for Hi-Boy, and he looked like a man among boys....literally.

He also went to a JUCO program that's been notorious for juicin' up. That doesn't mean that he did it.......he's a great ballplayer and it would suck to see him being in that mix, but usually when there's smoke, there's fire. Maybe he worked his ass off. I dunno. He was a fat pudgy shit coming into the minors.

I'm not even bashing the dude...

I don't even care about players juicing up...

NOT ONE BIT

I'm a bonds fan for christ sake...

but Cardinals fans that are convinced Pujols never roided up...

crack me up

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:03 AM
:rolleyes:

come on man.....really?

are you trying to tell me Pujols could hit like Barry?

blaise
06-03-2010, 11:03 AM
I've seen him catch the ball before...

any historian would tell you that Griffey was every bit of the OF'er as Mays...

I'm confused, are we taking the word of baseball historians or not? Or is the "I've seen him play" standard only in effect when it works to your benefit.

blaise
06-03-2010, 11:04 AM
Meat Dragon

Why do you post

like this.....

is there some....

reason?

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:05 AM
I guarantee you I've seen more Mays than Jilly...

I was just stating...

if we're taking defense into account...

Griffey is, at the very least, = to Mays

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:05 AM
why do you care how I post?

If it bothers you, don't respond...or try and bate me in whatever it is you're trying to do

Chiefs Rool
06-03-2010, 11:06 AM
IMO nobody was ever as good as a hitter as Tedd Williams, so I'll go with him. I might have said Barry Bonds, but he was on steroids and wasn't great on defense for the last 10 years of his juiced career.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 11:06 AM
LMAO

that's the best one yet Frazod...

remember when you posted that a year ago

yeah I bet his arm gear turned him into the best hitter ever...

that's it!!!

LOL

people go SO FAR in their hate mission when it comes to Bonds

I hate to break it to you, but that long line to suck Bonds' dick has basically dwindled down to.... you!

Was he a player with great ability? Sure. Did he cheat like mad and use unnatural means to attempt to steal the mantle of greatest player? Hell yes, and everybody sees it but you.

He'll never be regarded as one of the greats. He may not even make it into the Hall of Fame (if they can keep Rose out for being a dick, they should keep Barry out for being a dick and a cheater). You can pimp him all you want, but it won't change anything.

And we'll still continue to laugh at you.

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 11:07 AM
he was basically a professional player playing against amateur talent...



You need to realize that at the time Ruth and Cobb played, baseball was the only real sport going. America's best athletes at the time (white, of course) didn't play basketball or football or any other sport, they played baseball, because that is where the fame and the money (albeit paltry compared to today) was.

Also understand that there were extensive minor leagues just like today. A kid didn't just walk up to the park with a hobo sack over his shoulder and say "Gee whiz y'all, I wanna play da baseball...hyuck, hyuck!". Only the best got to the bigs and considering there were only 16 teams or so, that's small company.

Professional baseball players were not the GNC freaks they are today, but to say that they were amateurs is pretty stupid. They were VERY, VERY ELITE athletes of their time.

Jilly
06-03-2010, 11:15 AM
I guarantee you I've seen more Mays than Jilly...

I was just stating...

if we're taking defense into account...

Griffey is, at the very least, = to Mays

Maybe, since I wasn't alive when he played..... but I have seen footage, I do have about 5 different baseball cards of him.

In all honesty though, I have no idea who is the better player and couldn't. Why? Because they don't play each other and the game is different today than it was then.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:16 AM
I don't feel like arguing anymore about Ruth...

I'm going to focus on Bonds...

Frazod you're a joke...

and anyone that wants to deny Bonds' greatness is a joke.

He was the most amazing hitter I've ever seen...

and I've seen a lot of Frank, a lot of Griffey, a lot of Pujols, etc. etc. etc.

I think it's absolutely hysterical that people would want to keep Bonds out of the HOF...

Frazod is the same guy that...

I GUARANTEE

used to don a McGwire jersey and cheer every time he crushed a mammoth shot...

and he had 10% of the ability Bonds had...

Bonds was simply...AMAZING.

Incredible.

You could not pitch to the guy...he got the pitchers best stuff 100% of the time and 95% of the time they never gave him anything to hit...

and yet he still hit...

wake me up the next time someone posts a 61% OBP

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:17 AM
I understand why McGwire...Sosa...Palmeiro...I understand them never being in the HOF...

Bonds however?

If they keep him out they are a disgrace.

blaise
06-03-2010, 11:19 AM
I understand why McGwire...Sosa...Palmeiro...I understand them never being in the HOF...

Bonds however?

If they keep him out they are a disgrace.

Actually, it's Bonds that caused his own disgrace.

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 11:20 AM
I understand why McGwire...Sosa...Palmeiro...I understand them never being in the HOF...

Bonds however?

If they keep him out they are a disgrace.

If a person cheated to win a contest and it was revealed that they had in fact cheated to win that contest, why is it shocking if the organizers of that contest don't give him the prize?

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:22 AM
news flash...

people have been cheating in baseball for over a century...

it's the steroid era...

it is what it is

OleMissCub...

I could juice you up...put you on an amazing cycle...and I bet you can't post a .150 OBP in the Majors...

pretending what Bonds did was simply because of roids is insanity...

blaise
06-03-2010, 11:23 AM
news flash...

people have been cheating in baseball for over a century...

it's the steroid era...

it is what it is

OleMissCub...

I could juice you up...put you on an amazing cycle...and I bet you can't post a .150 OBP in the Majors...

pretending what Bonds did was simply because of roids is insanity...

And pretending his numbers weren't inflated by steroid use is equally insane.

CoMoChief
06-03-2010, 11:25 AM
Here's what both players avg per season per Baseballreference.com

Player A
AVG .298
HR 41
RBI 108
RUNS 121
SB 28
OB% .444
SLG% .607
SO 83
WALKS 139


Player B
AVG .333
HR 42
RBI 129
RUNS 123
SB 7
OB% .427
SLG% .626
SO 67
WALKS 95


Player "B" is none other than Albert Pujols......so yes I can say that Albert CAN hit just as good or better than Barry Bonds.

Hydrae
06-03-2010, 11:25 AM
I guarantee you I've seen more Mays than Jilly...

I was just stating...

if we're taking defense into account...

Griffey is, at the very least, = to Mays

my personal opinion, Clemente was the best outfielder of all time. Bar none. Too bad a lot of people around here are not even aware of him.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 11:25 AM
Wrong as usual, Pootie.

Never owned a McGwire jersey. Did I like he when he played? At first - until he became a 1 home run for every 10 strikeouts liability. Of course, you were cuddling Sosa's nuts back then, weren't you?

Remember, as a Cardinal fan, I expect more than simply one man's individual achievements. I expect my teams to actually WIN SOMETHING. As a Cub fan, I'm sure you wouldn't understand that.

And I won't have anything to do with cheater Bonds being kept out of the Hall of Fame.

I'll

just

be

the

one

laughing

about

it

ROFL

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:27 AM
baseball is a team sport...

your slam on bonds for not winning a World Series was one of the funniest things I've ever read...

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 11:28 AM
news flash...

people have been cheating in baseball for over a century...

it's the steroid era...

it is what it is

OleMissCub...

I could juice you up...put you on an amazing cycle...and I bet you can't post a .150 OBP in the Majors...

pretending what Bonds did was simply because of roids is insanity...

dude, I don't think anyone is saying that Bonds wasn't an amazing baseball player. they'd be a fool to say otherwise. He would have been top 15 all time regardless of the steroids. However, the records he holds were set because of cheating.

Steroids isn't about making someone's tools better, it's about giving them the longevity and health to achieve certain numbers that they otherwise wouldn't have had.

Baseball players peak around the age of 30 because that is the intersect of their baseball mental experience and their physical health. Bonds had the wisdom of a guy who had played for 20 years with the health of a guy who had only played 5 years. Same with Clemens. That, coupled with the fact that they already had an amazing skill set, is what set them apart.

blaise
06-03-2010, 11:28 AM
baseball is a team sport...

your slam on bonds for not winning a World Series was one of the funniest things I've ever read...

Wow, really? What do you normally read, the dictionary?

OleMissCub
06-03-2010, 11:29 AM
baseball is a team sport...

your slam on bonds for not winning a World Series was one of the funniest things I've ever read...

will you stop slinging cliches around?

Frazod
06-03-2010, 11:32 AM
baseball is a team sport...

your slam on bonds for not winning a World Series was one of the funniest things I've ever read...

It's just a fact, sweetheart.

Bonds never won a World Series.

Water is wet.

Women have secrets.

Sorry.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:32 AM
will you stop slinging cliches around?

ok?

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:32 AM
It's just a fact, sweetheart.

Bonds never won a World Series.

Water is wet.

Women have secrets.

Sorry.

Well then you can put an * by Pujols' WS because 83 wins would never have gotten anyone into the postseason before the watered down Wild Card...

Frazod
06-03-2010, 11:33 AM
Well then you can put an * by Pujols' WS because 83 wins would never have gotten anyone into the postseason before the watered down Wild Card...

Your tears sure are tasty.

Short Leash Hootie
06-03-2010, 11:36 AM
the baseball postseason is a joke anyways...

it's anti-climatic and a team that wins 110 games has no advantage over a team who squeaks in with say...83...

the team with the better record should start with a 1-0 lead...3 wins for them to win the series...4 wins for the other team

Frazod
06-03-2010, 11:42 AM
the baseball postseason is a joke anyways...

it's anti-climatic and a team that wins 110 games has no advantage over a team who squeaks in with say...83...

the team with the better record should start with a 1-0 lead...3 wins for them to win the series...4 wins for the other team

I guess if my team had only won ONE postseason series in the past 102 years, I'd try to play it off as a joke, too.

Those stupid championships. Who needs 'em? :LOL:

Johnny Vegas
06-03-2010, 11:46 AM
apparently I'm too fuckin young to give my opinion on who is the greatest all time baseball player.

CoMoChief
06-03-2010, 11:49 AM
Well then you can put an * by Pujols' WS because 83 wins would never have gotten anyone into the postseason before the watered down Wild Card...

2 days in a row and I'm agreeing w/ Frazod.

This is your fault Meat Dragon for being such a dumbass.

Sofa King
06-03-2010, 11:53 AM
Is that a write in vote?

oops, haven't been here all morning... Pete Rose would get my vote...

Pablo
06-03-2010, 12:02 PM
2 days in a row and I'm agreeing w/ Frazod.

This is your fault Meat Dragon for being such a dumbass.

Mu fans tend to stick together.

Frazod
06-03-2010, 12:06 PM
Mu fans tend to stick together.

That'll leave a mark. :D

Ebolapox
06-03-2010, 12:10 PM
I think Roberto Clemente would be in this discussion if he hadn't died early.

I am trying to think of the guys name. A Negro league catcher I believe. Joe something. A lot of people from back then say he was hands down the best during the time of Ruth and company. Anyone know who I am talking about?

if it hasn't been posted already, josh gibson. supposedly hit 800-some homeruns.

and if we're including ALL baseball players, you have to put sadaharu oh, japanese baseball player who is the all-time home-run king (hit more confirmed than aaron)

Ebolapox
06-03-2010, 12:27 PM
oh, and why the fuck does h00tie have to go and verbally vomit all over every thread he's in?!?`

Reaper16
06-03-2010, 12:38 PM
I voted for Bonds too. So there.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-03-2010, 01:01 PM
It's Babe Ruth, and it's not even close. Especially since you've defined it as "baseball player", which suggests overall talent at the sport of baseball. How many dominant pitchers who won World Series then became the most dominant hitter in the game, redefining the entire way the game is played?

That would be one.

Who never played against black people.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-03-2010, 01:11 PM
Hootie,

You do realize that if not for the "Watered Down Wildcard", the Cardinals would have never faced the Red Sox in the 2004 World Series or the Astros in the 2005 LCS. So at the bare minimum, they would have reached 3 straight World Series and in all likelihood would have won at least one other.

They also won their division in 2006, so that argument makes no sense, either.

MOhillbilly
06-03-2010, 01:18 PM
Concrete Charlie says baseball is for pussies.

DJ's left nut
06-03-2010, 01:42 PM
Who never played against black people.

Also never played in the expansion era.

For every minority pitcher that Ruth didn't face, he also didn't get to face the 150th best SP that baseball had to offer at the time. There were literally 1/2 as many teams in the league.

Granted, he also only got 150 games/season and didn't face relief specialists. Then again, ballparks were enormous - look at the dimensions of some of those fields. You'll find parks that are 500 ft to CF; 475 in the power alleys. Ruth had 500 doubles - how many of those do you supposed become HRs in Houston or Philly? Balls were used repeatedly so they were deader.

Ultimately I think Ruth's #s can compare to this era. The advantages and disadvantages tend to even out, if not even favor Ruth a bit.

CoMoChief
06-03-2010, 01:45 PM
Mu fans tend to stick together.

:mad::mad::mad: Grrrrrrrrr

MOhillbilly
06-03-2010, 02:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQb_-sTlR3Q

Frazod
06-03-2010, 02:10 PM
oh, and why the fuck does h00tie have to go and verbally vomit all over every thread he's in?!?`

That's just how he rolls.

BigRedChief
06-04-2010, 02:47 PM
Concrete Charlie says baseball is for pussies.Concrete Charlie?:hmmm:

RJ
06-04-2010, 02:54 PM
Da Babe.

Pitched, hit for power, hit for average and was far and away the best of his era.

Tiger's Fan
06-04-2010, 03:48 PM
Concrete Charlie?:hmmm:

Eagles LB Chuck Bednarick.

Coach
06-04-2010, 04:14 PM
Would like to separate the poll and see who would be the best pitcher of all time.
Posted via Mobile Device

Demonpenz
06-04-2010, 04:23 PM
best pitcher is Greg Maddux in the truest sense of the word.

thurman merman
06-04-2010, 06:54 PM
Poll is incomplete.

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/138824_f260.jpg

ROFL

thurman merman
06-04-2010, 06:55 PM
Tyrus Raymond Cobb.

boogblaster
06-04-2010, 07:17 PM
Cobb or Williams

BillSelfsTrophycase
06-04-2010, 07:23 PM
Best player.....no

Best tirade.....Hell yeah

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Rain Man
06-04-2010, 07:27 PM
I know little about baseball, but kind of figured it was either Ruth, Ted Williams, or Mantle. I put Mantle 3rd, and went back and forth about the other two. My finger poised above Williams because, let's face it, hitting .400 is pretty good. But I went with Ruth. I get stuck on that one statistic where one year he hit 50 homers or something and the second-place guy hit 10. I'm sure my numbers are wrong, but there was some year where he was Marino, Rice, and Barry Sanders all rolled into one.

Ebolapox
06-04-2010, 08:01 PM
it's difficult for me to pick any one player as best of all-time. I can make sensible, convincing arguments for ruth, cobb, aaron, mays, williams, cy young, walter johnson or even gehrig. too many different factors such as era, competition, ballpark size, dead/live ball, improved cheating, etc. there is no definitive best of all-time, IMO.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 04:39 AM
It's close with Ruth, but I have to go with Bonds. Simply the greatest hitter ever in a more difficult era and an elite defender to boot.

These stats might interest some of you. It's pretty fun to compare players:
http://www.fangraphs.com/careerleaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&type=6&min=1000

KCinNY
06-05-2010, 05:44 AM
You could make a defensible case for Ruth without including his dominant stint as the best left handed pitcher of his time.

He was the best ballplayer ever and it really isn't close.

pr_capone
06-05-2010, 07:47 AM
It's close with Ruth, but I have to go with Bonds. Simply the greatest hitter ever in a more difficult era and an elite defender to boot.

These stats might interest some of you. It's pretty fun to compare players:
http://www.fangraphs.com/careerleaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&type=6&min=1000

Elite? No. To be an elite fielder not only does one have to have a wicked glove but also a good strong arm. Bonds glove was pretty damn good but his arm left a lot to be desired.

Example, if you get beat on a throw home by Sid "The Sloth" Bream running from 2nd to lose the NLCS... you just aren't all that Elite as an outfielder.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 12:16 PM
Elite? No. To be an elite fielder not only does one have to have a wicked glove but also a good strong arm. Bonds glove was pretty damn good but his arm left a lot to be desired.

Did you read the stats table I posted?

Saul Good
06-05-2010, 01:16 PM
LMAO

that's the best one yet Frazod...

remember when you posted that a year ago

yeah I bet his arm gear turned him into the best hitter ever...

that's it!!!

LOL

people go SO FAR in their hate mission when it comes to Bonds

I liked how the article listed "performed poorly in the home run derby" as being one of the advantages.

Ebolapox
06-05-2010, 01:38 PM
Did you read the stats table I posted?

maybe elite early in his career. he was an absolute disaster after he hulked up. he went from elite to shit in no time flat.

Saul Good
06-05-2010, 01:47 PM
Here's what both players avg per season per Baseballreference.com

Player A
AVG .298
HR 41
RBI 108
RUNS 121
SB 28
OB% .444
SLG% .607
SO 83
WALKS 139


Player B
AVG .333
HR 42
RBI 129
RUNS 123
SB 7
OB% .427
SLG% .626
SO 67
WALKS 95


Player "B" is none other than Albert Pujols......so yes I can say that Albert CAN hit just as good or better than Barry Bonds.

You're averaging out an entire career for Bonds and just the prime for Pujols. Take Bonds' five best seasons and average them against Pujols's five best seasons. It isn't close.

By the way, the answer is Ruth by a mile. When you are good enough to be one of the best pitchers in the game and then go on to hit more home runs than the rest of the league combined in a season (maybe more than once), you are the best ever.

Pioli Zombie
06-05-2010, 01:50 PM
David DeJesus and its not even close.

pr_capone
06-05-2010, 02:17 PM
Did you read the stats table I posted?

The point of your post that I was addressing was the elite fielder part. I know his numbers as a batter were impressive.

Bonds threw lollipops from the outfield. Again, if Sid Bream can score on you from second base then there is something seriously suspect about your arm.

The guy had no arm. If we are talking about the best baseball player of all time then not only does the guy have to be able to bat and field but the guy has to be able to get the important out with his arm if needed.

Bowser
06-05-2010, 02:19 PM
David DeJesus and its not even close.

Angel Berrora would tell you to go fuck yourself.

Ebolapox
06-05-2010, 02:20 PM
Angel Berrora would tell you to go fuck yourself.

they'd both be full of shit here. it's carlos febles and it isn't even an argument anymore.

notorious
06-05-2010, 02:33 PM
5


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yKSo5xPjLpM/S7tpZOQfLwI/AAAAAAAAMA0/Bdc87PQDjGc/s1600/george.brett.jpg

Fucking A.

Rain Man
06-05-2010, 02:36 PM
If Sidd Finch hadn't had such a short career, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Bowser
06-05-2010, 02:43 PM
If Sidd Finch hadn't had such a short career, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

A curious case, to be sure.

BigMeatballDave
06-05-2010, 02:55 PM
Please remove Barry Bonds from this list...

Pioli Zombie
06-05-2010, 03:33 PM
Willie Bloomquist.

OleMissCub
06-05-2010, 05:02 PM
For those who might be interested by all the "Babe was one of the best pitchers in the game" comments, I did a little research and his average ERA+ for the 5 years when he was purely a starter was 127, which is good, but not stellar. Babe did lead the league in ERA+ in 1916 with 158 which is damn good (Halladay was at 157 last year, for example).

For comparison to a current pitcher with similar stats, over the past few years, players with ERA+ ratings of 127 include Kevin Milwood, Derek Lowe, Irvin Santana, and Justin Verlander.

Babe would have been a solid #2 guy in a modern rotation.

So to go from that to being the greatest slugger in history is pretty strong.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 06:14 PM
The point of your post that I was addressing was the elite fielder part. I know his numbers as a batter were impressive.

Bonds threw lollipops from the outfield. Again, if Sid Bream can score on you from second base then there is something seriously suspect about your arm.

The guy had no arm. If we are talking about the best baseball player of all time then not only does the guy have to be able to bat and field but the guy has to be able to get the important out with his arm if needed.

If you read the table you would know that Bonds is 6th all time in Fielding Runs Above Replacement. While not great, his arm was fine, stop letting your bias blind you.

Saul Good
06-05-2010, 06:16 PM
For those who might be interested by all the "Babe was one of the best pitchers in the game" comments, I did a little research and his average ERA+ for the 5 years when he was purely a starter was 127, which is good, but not stellar. Babe did lead the league in ERA+ in 1916 with 158 which is damn good (Halladay was at 157 last year, for example).

For comparison to a current pitcher with similar stats, over the past few years, players with ERA+ ratings of 127 include Kevin Milwood, Derek Lowe, Irvin Santana, and Justin Verlander.

Babe would have been a solid #2 guy in a modern rotation.

So to go from that to being the greatest slugger in history is pretty strong.

Based on those numbers, it sounds like he'd be a solid #1 guy. I'd say that a guy who is Justin Verlander on average with an upside of Roy Halladay is better than #2, especially when you consider how young he was at the time.

pr_capone
06-05-2010, 07:14 PM
If you read the table you would know that Bonds is 6th all time in Fielding Runs Above Replacement. While not great, his arm was fine, stop letting your bias blind you.

What bias exactly is that? Do I think that the guy is scum? Yup. Does his use of steroids help his fielding avg? Perhaps a bit. Sure didn't help with his throwing power.

BTW, FRAR? Really?

Let's look at fielding % instead. That massive defensive wall that is also known as Barry Bonds had a .984 career fielding percentage. Let's compare that to the numbers of some other players. For fun, let's make them all ex-Braves.

Jeff Francoeur - .983
Otis Nixon - .989
Andruw Jones - .991
Marquis Grissom - .988
Michael Tucker - .985
Kenny Lofton - .984


Overall Barry is at #39 all time in fielding average. #27 of all Left Fielders.

But yeah... you are right. Barry was a rock defensively and his arm strength means shit. It certainly did not cost the Pirates a shot at the WS.

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Barry showing off his D skillz starts at 2:23.


Barry Bonds fielded the ball as Bream (known as a slow runner, possibly one of the slowest in baseball) plodded around the bases toward home plate. Bonds' throw arrived first, but it was slightly offline towards the first-base line.

His throw from LF not only BARELY beat Bream, "possibly one of the slowest in baseball", to the plate but it was offline.

I won't argue that what he did at the plate was anabolically amazing... but don't make him out to be something he was not defensively.

Frazod
06-05-2010, 07:33 PM
maybe elite early in his career. he was an absolute disaster after he hulked up. he went from elite to shit in no time flat.

It's almost like there are two Bonds - the awesome young player he once was and the noxious roided out armor wearing cheating mountain of shit he ended his career as.

tk13
06-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Bob Hamelin

KCinNY
06-05-2010, 07:43 PM
Gotta give credit to Mike Lavalliere on that play. He did a nice job w/ Bonds' terrible throw and almost tagged Bream out.

Ebolapox
06-05-2010, 07:45 PM
there's a reason he would've had to be a DH late in his career--the comination of hulked up and knees going turned him to absolute shit defensively (bonds)

OleMissCub
06-05-2010, 08:18 PM
Based on those numbers, it sounds like he'd be a solid #1 guy. I'd say that a guy who is Justin Verlander on average with an upside of Roy Halladay is better than #2, especially when you consider how young he was at the time.

That's his average ERA+ over about 5 years. Some seasons he was average and a few seasons he was really good. He was their ace for about two years. So I just imagined he'd be a #2 guy over an entire career.

Saul Good
06-05-2010, 08:23 PM
That's his average ERA+ over about 5 years. Some seasons he was average and a few seasons he was really good. He was their ace for about two years. So I just imagined he'd be a #2 guy over an entire career.

Those where his first few seasons, though. If a guy was that good that young, it stands to reason that his numbers would have been even better in his prime.

Ebolapox
06-05-2010, 09:03 PM
Those where his first few seasons, though. If a guy was that good that young, it stands to reason that his numbers would have been even better in his prime.

keep in mind too, he pitched in what was the end of the dead ball era (the era he helped demolish as a hitter). it's kinda difficult to compare pitching numbers for a dead ball era pitcher to that of a modern era pitcher.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 09:10 PM
What bias exactly is that? Do I think that the guy is scum? Yup. Does his use of steroids help his fielding avg? Perhaps a bit. Sure didn't help with his throwing power.

Sounds like you have a pretty big bias to me.


BTW, FRAR? Really?

Yes, really.


Let's look at fielding % instead. That massive defensive wall that is also known as Barry Bonds had a .984 career fielding percentage. Let's compare that to the numbers of some other players. For fun, let's make them all ex-Braves.

You need to do some research. Fielding percentage is a horrible metric that favors players with little to no range. A huge fat guy could play LF and make no errors for his entire career because he catches every ball directed right at him. But that, of course, doesn't mean he's a good fielder.


I won't argue that what he did at the plate was anabolically amazing... but don't make him out to be something he was not defensively.
I'm not making him out to be anything but the elite defender he was. His FRAR stats don't lie.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 09:13 PM
It's almost like there are two Bonds - the awesome young player he once was and the noxious roided out armor wearing cheating mountain of shit he ended his career as.
I've noticed that many Cardinals fans routinely bash Bonds when they have one of the most obvious PED offenders on their own team. Or are you so naive that you still believe otherwise about him?

RJ
06-05-2010, 09:17 PM
That's his average ERA+ over about 5 years. Some seasons he was average and a few seasons he was really good. He was their ace for about two years. So I just imagined he'd be a #2 guy over an entire career.


I'm going to disagree, only because he stopped pitching at 23-24 years old, an age where he likely would have just been hitting his stride. But even if you're right, a solid career as a #2 type starter ain't half bad.

milkman
06-05-2010, 09:17 PM
If Sidd Finch hadn't had such a short career, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Tony Conigliaro.

BWillie
06-05-2010, 09:21 PM
If Babe Ruth played in today's game, he'd hit .280 w/ 25-35 homeruns. Good player he would be yes, but nothing legendary.

Frazod
06-05-2010, 09:23 PM
I've noticed that many Cardinals fans routinely bash Bonds when they have one of the most obvious PED offenders on their own team. Or are you so naive that you still believe otherwise about him?

You're barking up the wrong tree here. McGwire's stats are just as corrupt as Bonds' are. I guess the one good thing Bonds did was to overshadow McGwire's crap.

The main difference between them is that McGwire is not a complete bastard. He seems like a decent human being. I didn't want him hired as our hitting coach, but the players seem to like him.

I don't think we'll see Bonds invited back to coach for the Giants anytime soon. Do you?

RJ
06-05-2010, 09:23 PM
Tony Conigliaro.

Ouch.

RJ
06-05-2010, 09:24 PM
If Babe Ruth played in today's game, he'd hit .280 w/ 25-35 homeruns. Good player he would be yes, but nothing legendary.


What do you base that on?

Frazod
06-05-2010, 09:26 PM
If Babe Ruth played in today's game, he'd hit .280 w/ 25-35 homeruns. Good player he would be yes, but nothing legendary.

You don't know that. He was a fat, beer swilling pig and still was head and shoulders above his peers. Imagine what Ruth might have been like with a modern health/exercise regimen.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 09:26 PM
You're barking up the wrong tree here. McGwire's stats are just as corrupt as Bonds' are. I guess the one good thing Bonds did was to overshadow McGwire's crap.

The main difference between them is that McGwire is not a complete bastard. He seems like a decent human being. I didn't want him hired as our hitting coach, but the players seem to like him.

I don't think you'll see Bonds invited back to coach for the Giants anytime soon. Do you?

Ha, I was talking about Pujols, but McGwire works too (though I'm a fan of his).

Honestly, I don't care at all about PED use in baseball. That culture has been there for 50+ years (starting with greenies) and it hasn't gone anywhere.

milkman
06-05-2010, 09:27 PM
If Babe Ruth played in today's game, he'd hit .280 w/ 25-35 homeruns. Good player he would be yes, but nothing legendary.

Who fucking cares?

He played in the era he played in.

If we were born 30 years ago, and he was born with the natural talent, he like everyone else playing today, would benefit from the advances made in the sport and in other areas, and he'd still be a dominating player.

The different era argument is one of the stupidest fucking arguments ever.

Frazod
06-05-2010, 09:30 PM
Ha, I was talking about Pujols, but McGwire works too (though I'm a fan of his).

Honestly, I don't care at all about PED use in baseball. That culture has been there for 50+ years (starting with greenies) and it hasn't gone anywhere.

Jesus, you really need to stop channeling Hootie.

If Pujols was roided up, somebody would have broken the story by now. Just like they did with A-Rod and Manny. It would have happened by now.

BWillie
06-05-2010, 09:31 PM
Who ****ing cares?

He played in the era he played in.

If we were born 30 years ago, and he was born with the natural talent, he like everyone else playing today, would benefit from the advances made in the sport and in other areas, and he'd still be a dominating player.

The different era argument is one of the stupidest ****ing arguments ever.

Okay step back and think about this. Take the talent pool of baseball back in Ruths era. Alot of the guys that played, it wasn't even their primary job. Alot of them were butchers or sold insurance or something on the side, and then played baseball.

Lets also take a look at the SIZE of the talent pool there was. It was extremely small back in Ruths day. Now, sport is internationally w/ 25x the talent pool. You have Japan, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Cuba, and the US is much, much bigger.

I mean you put Babe Ruth up there because of the folklore, but anybody w/ a brain would admit that in all probability he would not be even a Top 10 player in todays game.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 09:33 PM
Jesus, you really need to stop channeling Hootie.

If Pujols was roided up, somebody would have broken the story by now. Just like they did with A-Rod and Manny. It would have happened by now.
It took years for them to break the stories on guys like ARod, Clemens, Manny, Pettitte, and others. Back during the Bonds hate years, I remember always telling people how likely it was that all the top guys were using but nobody ever considered the possibility. They just made Bonds the symbol of an entire era.

Anyway, if those guys covered it up for that long, why couldn't Pujols? The fact that he had the same personal trainer as Jason Grimsley was always suspicious to me.

milkman
06-05-2010, 09:34 PM
Okay step back and think about this. Take the talent pool of baseball back in Ruths era. Alot of the guys that played, it wasn't even their primary job. Alot of them were butchers or sold insurance or something on the side, and then played baseball.

Lets also take a look at the SIZE of the talent pool there was. It was extremely small back in Ruths day. Now, sport is internationally w/ 25x the talent pool. You have Japan, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Cuba, and the US is much, much bigger.

I mean you put Babe Ruth up there because of the folklore, but anybody w/ a brain would admit that in all probability he would not be even a Top 10 player in todays game.

No.

Anyone with a brain knows that you can not make the assumptions that you make simply because you want to make them.

It's a bullshit argument.

BWillie
06-05-2010, 09:41 PM
No.

Anyone with a brain knows that you can not make the assumptions that you make simply because you want to make them.

It's a bullshit argument.

LOL okay. I'm throwing facts at you. I know you are having a hard time following, but I'll try again.

Let me phrase it like this. Say you have a high school of 200 students. And a high school of 2500 students. It is EXTREMELY unlikely the best player out of the 200 student sized school will be better than the best player at the 2500 student school. Oh yeah, and the 200 student high school only has white kids. No blacks, Japanese, Dominicans, etc. And this example isn't even taking account the fact that some of the guys back in Ruth's era didn't even play baseball as their primary career.

Frazod
06-05-2010, 09:45 PM
It took years for them to break the stories on guys like ARod, Clemens, Manny, Pettitte, and others. Back during the Bonds hate years, I remember always telling people how likely it was that all the top guys were using but nobody ever considered the possibility. They just made Bonds the symbol of an entire era.

Anyway, if those guys covered it up for that long, why couldn't Pujols? The fact that he had the same personal trainer as Jason Grimsley was always suspicious to me.

Whatever. You say it took years to break these stories. THEY'VE HAD YEARS. Try to tell me that the east coast media wouldn't love to ruin Pujols and hasn't run out every lead possible. Give me a fucking break.

Saul Good
06-05-2010, 09:47 PM
LOL okay. I'm throwing facts at you. I know you are having a hard time following, but I'll try again.

Let me phrase it like this. Say you have a high school of 200 students. And a high school of 2500 students. It is EXTREMELY unlikely the best player out of the 200 student sized school will be better than the best player at the 2500 student school. Oh yeah, and the 200 student high school only has white kids. No blacks, Japanese, Dominicans, etc. And this example isn't even taking account the fact that some of the guys back in Ruth's era didn't even play baseball as their primary career.

Back then, you only had 16 teams. Also, the best athletes were playing baseball. Now they play basketball and football. Look at the all-star lineups for last year and tell me how many of those players are world-class athletes. Compare that to the NBA all-star roster.

milkman
06-05-2010, 09:48 PM
LOL okay. I'm throwing facts at you. I know you are having a hard time following, but I'll try again.

Let me phrase it like this. Say you have a high school of 200 students. And a high school of 2500 students. It is EXTREMELY unlikely the best player out of the 200 student sized school will be better than the best player at the 2500 student school. Oh yeah, and the 200 student high school only has white kids. No blacks, Japanese, Dominicans, etc. And this example isn't even taking account the fact that some of the guys back in Ruth's era didn't even play baseball as their primary career.

Again.

It doesn't matter.

While unlikely, that 200 student high school could produce the better player.

However, it's a stupid analogy.

Babe Ruth was clearly born with a god given talent to play baseball.

He was the most dominating player of his era, in spite of the fact that he was a womanizing drunk.

His slugging percentage and OPS are still the highest ever.

To assume he would be an average player in today's game is not taking into account the fact that he would be benefitting from advanced technology in conditioning and medicine.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 09:52 PM
Whatever. You say it took years to break these stories. THEY'VE HAD YEARS. Try to tell me that the east coast media wouldn't love to ruin Pujols and hasn't run out every lead possible. Give me a ****ing break.
OK, but nobody used to believe Clemens/Manny/ARod were users either (except the realists like me), until it eventually came out that they were. I'm just sayin'.

Anyway, I can see you're worried about it. I'll leave it at that, I wouldn't want to upset you anymore than I already have.

BWillie
06-05-2010, 09:53 PM
Again.

It doesn't matter.

While unlikely, that 200 student high school could produce the better player.

However, it's a stupid analogy.

Babe Ruth was clearly born with a god given talent to play baseball.

He was the most dominating player of his era, in spite of the fact that he was a womanizing drunk.

His slugging percentage and OPS are still the highest ever.

To assume he would be an average player in today's game is not taking into account the fact that he would be benefitting from advanced technology in conditioning and medicine.

I didn't say average, I said he wouldn't be a TOP player. He'd make a few All-Star games I bet. That is about it though.

Frazod
06-05-2010, 09:54 PM
OK, but nobody used to believe Clemens/Manny/ARod were users either (except the realists like me), until it eventually came out that they were. I'm just sayin'.

Anyway, I can see you're worried about it. I'll leave it at that, I wouldn't want to upset you anymore than I already have.

Worried about it? No. Sick of the jealous and butthurt whining about it? You bet.

BWillie
06-05-2010, 09:55 PM
Back then, you only had 16 teams. Also, the best athletes were playing baseball. Now they play basketball and football. Look at the all-star lineups for last year and tell me how many of those players are world-class athletes. Compare that to the NBA all-star roster.

I don't really see how being a good athlete matters all that much in baseball. Maybe defensively for certain positions, but for the most part, you don't have to be a good athlete to play baseball. Sure, there are some great athletes in the MLB and it helps and probably most MLB players are more athletic than the fit general public, but there are plenty of great baseball players who aren't good athletes.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 09:56 PM
Worried about it? No. Sick of the jealous and butthurt whining about it? You bet.
There is nothing for me to be jealous of. I'd still be a fan and respect Pujols whether he used or not.

I just don't understand why people like you deny that possibility so vehemently after all we've learned about the PED culture in recent years. But whatever. You keep believing what you want to, it won't change my mind at all.

Frazod
06-05-2010, 09:58 PM
There is nothing for me to be jealous of. I'd still be a fan and respect Pujols whether he used or not.

I just don't understand why people like you deny that possibility so vehemently after all we've learned about the PED culture in recent years. But whatever. You keep believing what you want to, it won't change my mind at all.

You can believe in Santa Claus for all I care. I just don't want to hear about it.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 09:59 PM
You can believe in Santa Claus for all I care. I just don't want to hear about it.

Stick your head in the sand all you want, it won't change the reality of sports.

BWillie
06-05-2010, 10:00 PM
KC Connection, What do you think the % is that Griffey Jr roided?

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 10:04 PM
KC Connection, What do you think the % is the Griffey Jr roided?
I'd love to think not because he was a childhood hero of mine, but pretty high. He played with the steroid-infused Mariners (the team that holds the current ML team record for home runs), and his persistent injuries with the Reds reminded me of the type of injuries that a user would get.

BWillie
06-05-2010, 10:05 PM
I'd love to think not because he was a childhood hero of mine, but pretty high. He played with the steroid-infused Mariners (the team that holds the current team record for home runs). And his persistent injuries with the Reds reminded me of the type of injuries that a user would get.

While I would hate to find out he roided, I would agree. I'd say 50/50. This era is what it is.

milkman
06-05-2010, 10:05 PM
I didn't say average, I said he wouldn't be a TOP player. He'd make a few All-Star games I bet. That is about it though.

And my money says that if Babe Ruth were playing today, he'd be Albert Pujols.

There are two things required to be a great hitter with power, hand-eye coordination and bat speed.
That hasn't changed in 150 years.

The only thing that has changed is the technology.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 10:06 PM
While I would hate to find out he roided, I would agree. I'd say 50/50.
Seems like a reasonable estimation to me.

milkman
06-05-2010, 10:08 PM
Seems like a reasonable estimation to me.

The fact that he missed so much time and took so long to recover from injury would suggest he likely didn't use.

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 10:09 PM
The fact that he missed so much time and took so long to recover from injury would suggest he likely didn't use.
A point in his favor, indeed.

RJ
06-05-2010, 10:19 PM
I mean you put Babe Ruth up there because of the folklore, but anybody w/ a brain would admit that in all probability he would not be even a Top 10 player in todays game.


:LOL:

OleMissCub
06-05-2010, 10:24 PM
So you're saying if Brad Hawpe (23 HR, .285 last year) played in the 20's and 30's he'd average 46 HR, 143 RBI and .342/.474/.690 over 22 years.....If Brad Hawpe was time transported to that era he'd put up the greatest numbers this game has ever seen?

Oh, and your argument about "this wasn't even their primary job" doesn't work because most of them HAD to have an offseason job. If ballplayers were paid today like they were in the 20's, then even Albert Pujols would be working at a loading dock. Does that make Pujols less of a player because he is paid like crap and therefore has to have that second job? Hell, Stan Musial was BAGGING GROCERIES the offseason after he won a freaking MVP award. Does that mean he wasn't one of the best ever?

Yes, the talent pool has obviously expanded but there are some things that counteract that a bit. Consider that there are twice as many players in the MLB right now than in Ruth's day and also consider that the best athletes our nation had at the time played baseball.

And again, there were extensive minor leagues back then just like today. Guys didn't just walk up to the stadium with a hobo sack and go "gee feller, I wunna play sum baseball..." They were the best of the best of their time.

Chief Roundup
06-05-2010, 10:28 PM
Man there have been a lot of great players but to me there are 2 names not even on your list.
Nolan Ryan
Bob Gibson- they changed the hieght of the pitching mound because of his dominance. When they have to change the rules because of how good a player is well that speaks volumes of how good and dominant he is, that rule is still in place today.

OleMissCub
06-05-2010, 10:31 PM
Bob Gibson- they changed the hieght of the pitching mound because of his dominance. When they have to change the rules because of how good a player is well that speaks volumes of how good and dominant he is, that rule is still in place today.

<object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=5263618&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=&amp;ful lscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=5263618&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=&amp;ful lscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/5263618">Footage of Bob Gibson</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1898856">OleMissCub</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Chief Roundup
06-05-2010, 10:33 PM
To me there is no way that Griffey Jr even belongs on that list

RJ
06-05-2010, 10:33 PM
So you're saying if Brad Hawpe (23 HR, .285 last year) played in the 20's and 30's he'd average 46 HR, 143 RBI and .342/.474/.690 over 22 years.....If Brad Hawpe was time transported to that era he'd put up the greatest numbers this game has ever seen?

Oh, and your argument about "this wasn't even their primary job" doesn't work because most of them HAD to have an offseason job. If ballplayers were paid today like they were in the 20's, then even Albert Pujols would be working at a loading dock. Does that make Pujols less of a player because he is paid like crap and therefore has to have that second job? Hell, Stan Musial was BAGGING GROCERIES the offseason after he won a freaking MVP award. Does that mean he wasn't one of the best ever?

Yes, the talent pool has obviously expanded but there are some things that counteract that a bit. Consider that there are twice as many players in the MLB right now than in Ruth's day and also consider that the best athletes our nation had at the time played baseball.

And again, there were extensive minor leagues back then just like today. Guys didn't just walk up to the stadium with a hobo sack and go "gee feller, I wunna play sum baseball..." They were the best of the best of their time.

Don't forget about Brad Hawpe being a very successful pitcher for 4-5 years before he begins his batting exploits.

OleMissCub
06-05-2010, 10:35 PM
actually I'm not sure why I just posted a video of Bob Gibson because he was only average since he pitched over 40 years ago....thus making him on par with a mediocre middle reliever today....

or something

milkman
06-05-2010, 10:39 PM
actually I'm not sure why I just posted a video of Bob Gibson because he was only average since he pitched over 40 years ago....thus making him on par with a mediocre middle reliever today....

or something

Dumbass.






Warning. Sarcasm meter required.

OleMissCub
06-05-2010, 10:44 PM
Don't forget about Brad Hawpe being a very successful pitcher for 4-5 years before he begins his batting exploits.

but back then they just lobbed the ball up there and only threw straight fastballs....

oh wait, no they didn't. They actually threw as hard as we do today for the most part and were aware of every type of pitch that we have today.

Walter Johnson demonstrating his grips from OVER 100 YEARS AGO:

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5746/60255.jpg

RJ
06-05-2010, 10:53 PM
actually I'm not sure why I just posted a video of Bob Gibson because he was only average since he pitched over 40 years ago....thus making him on par with a mediocre middle reliever today....

or something


I figure Willie Mays might be a 4th OF today, seeing as back in the 50's and 60's there weren't nearly as many Latin players as there are now and the Asian market hadn't even been tapped.

pr_capone
06-05-2010, 11:04 PM
Sounds like you have a pretty big bias to me.

you are a moron then

/end discussion with you

KC_Connection
06-05-2010, 11:12 PM
you are a moron then

/end discussion with you

Ad hominems are always the best way to end arguments.

BigRedChief
06-05-2010, 11:36 PM
actually I'm not sure why I just posted a video of Bob Gibson because he was only average since he pitched over 40 years ago....thus making him on par with a mediocre middle reliever today....

or somethingGibby is a mediocre middle reliever? :LOL:
http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-Missed_it.jpg

Ebolapox
06-05-2010, 11:39 PM
Gibby is a mediocre middle reliever? :LOL:
http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-Missed_it.jpg

pretty sure that was sarcasm.

milkman
06-05-2010, 11:42 PM
Gibby is a mediocre middle reliever? :LOL:
http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-Missed_it.jpg

Wow!

pr_capone
06-06-2010, 12:00 AM
Ad hominems are always the best way to end arguments.

No, its merely a statement regarding your intelligence. It is both factual and relevant to the discussion.

You assume I have a bias against Bonds because I disagree with you. I freely admit that I find the guy to be scum but I am not impressed by his defensive prowess regardless of the fact that he is a lying cheating sack of shit. Again, not saying he was not good... just not "elite". Good glove, not the best, but weak arm.

Feel free to believe what you want though scooter... Barry is teh gawd in LF.

By the way, my last post is not ad hominem. In fact... lemme help you out.

"Common misconceptions about ad hominem" *


Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an argumentum ad hominem or a logical fallacy. The fallacy only occurs if personal attacks are employed instead of an argument to devalue an argument by attacking the speaker.

I'm not just insulting you without having an argument of my own. I am insulting you after having presented my argument, in order to end the discussion.

"You are just an ignorant twit." This is an insult and it is abusive, but it is not an argument. Because it is not an argument, it cannot be a fallacy. Of course, that doesn't mean that such personal insults are OK - just that when they appear alone, they aren't logical fallacies.

So, much in the way that "You are just an ignorant twit" is not an ad hominem, neither is my saying that you are a moron.


*wikipedia copypasta

OleMissCub
06-06-2010, 12:06 AM
Gibby is a mediocre middle reliever? :LOL:
http://www.forumspile.com/Misc-Missed_it.jpg

I think that pic would be better applied to your post

KC_Connection
06-06-2010, 03:33 AM
No, its merely a statement regarding your intelligence. It is both factual and relevant to the discussion.

I'm not the one using fielding percentage as a legitimate defensive metric and whining about the use of performance enhancers in baseball like it's something that started in the 1980s with Jose Canseco. You really need to get some ****ing perspective about these topics before questioning my intelligence.


You assume I have a bias against Bonds because I disagree with you. I freely admit that I find the guy to be scum but I am not impressed by his defensive prowess regardless of the fact that he is a lying cheating sack of shit. Again, not saying he was not good... just not "elite". Good glove, not the best, but weak arm.

I'm not assuming anything about your bias about Bonds. This very topic has come up before here on the Planet and your hate for him was as obvious then as it is now.


Feel free to believe what you want though scooter... Barry is teh gawd in LF.
Feel free to deny the best defensive stats available all you want. Barry Bonds was an elite defender at his position for most of his career.


I'm not just insulting you without having an argument of my own. I am insulting you after having presented my argument, in order to end the discussion.

You don't have a real argument of your own. You've cited fielding percentage (which I pointed out the flaws in) and gave me one example of a bad throw by Barry Bonds. Quality stuff. Then, instead of choosing to respond to any of my legitimate points, you chose to insult me.

It's traditionalists like you with an inability to see things with an open mind that make me ashamed to be a baseball fan sometimes.

pr_capone
06-06-2010, 07:54 AM
I'm not the one using fielding percentage as a legitimate defensive metric and whining about the use of performance enhancers in baseball like it's something that started in the 1980s with Jose Canseco. You really need to get some ****ing perspective about these topics before questioning my intelligence.


I'm not assuming anything about your bias about Bonds. This very topic has come up before here on the Planet and your hate for him was as obvious then as it is now.


Feel free to deny the best defensive stats available all you want. Barry Bonds was an elite defender at his position for most of his career.


You don't have a real argument of your own. You've cited fielding percentage (which I pointed out the flaws in) and gave me one example of a bad throw by Barry Bonds. Quality stuff. Then, instead of choosing to respond to any of my legitimate points, you chose to insult me.

It's traditionalists like you with an inability to see things with an open mind that make me ashamed to be a baseball fan sometimes.

It's not good enough for one to admit that Bonds was good... even very good defensively. I must admit nothing less than he was ELITE in order to satisfy you.

Yes. I hate Barry Bonds. I think he is a cheat, a liar, a horrible teammate, and a terrible role model for kids to want to emulate. Did his roiding up inflate his defensive numbers? Probably. Do I discount all his defensive achievements because of it? No. I will state yet again. Barry was a good LF, but not near good enough to be considered the best baseball player of all time, especially with the steroids issue hanging over his head.

Why does it bother you so much when I state a simple well known and documented fact? Barry had a twizzler for an arm. EVERYONE knows this. Shit, even you have you know this is fact. His weak ass arm was the single biggest hole in his game.

Yup. Traditionalist and love it. Well, traditionalist in the sense that I don't like it when people artificially inflate their stats in order to take down the most hallowed record in baseball. I'd rather be a traditionalist than one whom is ready and willing to give away records and argue that all records are invalid because "we don't know" what the old timers took.

OleMissCub
06-06-2010, 08:31 AM
I think that ball that Bonds threw trying to throw out Sid Bream is still rolling toward home.

pr_capone
06-06-2010, 08:39 AM
I think that ball that Bonds threw trying to throw out Sid Bream is still rolling toward home.

:LOL: